make them pale for feare and therefore he would affixe it though I for my part will thinke he doe it not so much to terrifie vs as to gull his owne with the name of the Church If he had in any good fashion defended the exposition and application he made of it k THE WAY § 15. Reply pag. 223 in his Treatise he might haue vsed it the better and it would haue made vs the more afraid but hauing left it in the lash where I answered it he is not worthy so faire a text should come vnder his title Neuerthelesse there is good vse to be made of it against himselfe For if the Church be the pillar of truth and the Papacie which he striues for in his Reply be the pillar of lies then it will follow the Papacie is not the Church The first proposition is his text The second neither his Reply nor Treatise can put by The conclusion therefore is the truth And so the Text may keep his place to good purpose 5 On the backside of the same page hee hath placed in Latin and English this sentence of Saint Austin de vtil cred c. 8. If thou seeme to thy selfe to be sufficiently tossed to wit in doubts questions or controuersies of faith and wouldest make an end of these labours follow the way of the Catholicke discipline which did proceed from Christ himselfe by the Apostles euen vnto vs and from hence shall be deriued to posteritie I guesse his minde was to allude to the title of my booke which I called THE WAY and because therein I defend the way of the Scripture followed by the vniuersall Church which he likes not therefore he brings S. Austin reuoking vs to the way of Catholicke discipline This man sure hath a strange apprehension * Denique addimus Ecclesiam quae nunc Pontifici Romano obtemperat ture ac merito Catholicae nomen sibi vendicare eademque ratio ne fidem eius Catholicam esse censendam appellandam Suar. de fens si◠Cathol aduers Anglic. sect err l. 1. c. 12. nu 9. to thinke that wheresoeuer the Fathers vse the word Catholicke they vnderstand thereby this New-Roman-Catholicke and when they speake of Catholicke discipline they vnderstand his Church proposition determined by the Pope when they affirme nothing else but the doctrine contained and written in the Scriptures to be Catholicke and the discipline whereby men are directed both in faith and manners So S. Austin expounds himselfe l Cap. 6. in the same place Beleeue me whatsoeuer is in those SCRIPTVRES is loftie and diuine THERE is altogether IN THEM the truth and discipline most accommodate for the renewing and repairing of our mindes and so qualified that there is NO MAN BVT FROM THENCE HE MAY DRAW THAT WHICH IS SVFFICIENT for him if to the drawing he come deuoutly and godly as true religion requires So also Theophilus Alexandrinus m Epist 1. Pas chal pag. 377. cals the medicines taken out of the holy Scriptures for the curing of heresies the ecclesiasticall discipline The WAY to the Church therefore and S. Austins WAY of Catholicke discipline are both one because they both are the way of the Scripture and that sufficient and easie way which the simplest that is may finde though the Pope with his authoritie and traditions intermeddle not and he that will seeke the Catholicke discipline by Saint Austins consent must do it in the SCRIPTVRE which I doubt will not greatly please this Iesuite who hath spent all his time in groping for it about the Popes stoole he being the man when all is done that must determine this discipline and * Cum Pontisex definit Ecclesia per caput suum loquitur Suar. vbi sup c. 2◠nu 7. the mouth whereby their Catholicke Church must vtter and expound it 6 In the next page followes a Table of the contents of his booke and after that a short Preface to the Reader wherein first he commends his booke that I confuted and his Method vsed therein to bring men to resolution and then shewes how he was vrged by our writing against it to this Reply excusing himselfe for the plainesse of his stile and concluding with a grieuous complaint of our vnsincere dealing which he proceeds to shew in that which followes The Commendation that he giues his Method may not be denied for we allow Apes to hugge their yong ones and heretickes to conceit their owne deuices and I must confesse it is good round Method indeed for the purpose and profitable for them to be followed For if you will see it this it is Good Eue for your soules health I were readie to shed my best bloud and therefore haue ventured my life as you see vpon the entertainment you know of such as I find in the hiding roomes to bring you home to the Catholicke Church your Method is this Close vp your eies and examine nothing but obstinately renouncing the Protestants and stopping your eares against the Scriptures in all things beleeue vs who on my owne word are the Church of God and submitting your selfe to the direction of your ghostly father without more adoe be resolute and you shall easily be perswaded of our Roman faith This is a good sure Method to resolution and makes many resolute indeed and the Iesuite hauing found by experience how kindly it works with good natures had reason to commend it though in any indifferent iudgement it be a poore one as will appeare The rest of his Preface is trash come we to that which is materiall 7 After the Preface to shew my vnsincere dealing whereof he complaines he makes a title of examples of grosse vntruths gathered out of M Woottons and M. Whites bookes by which the discreete reader may see how little sinceritie or care of truth they haue had and consequently how little credit is to be giuen to their writings and hauing dispatched M. Wootton he comes to me with these words Now to come to M. White whose booke is said to do much more harme among the simple then M. Woottons doth I hope I shall lay open such foule want of sinceritie and care of truth in him as it will plainly appeare that those which shall hereafter take harme by giuing credence to his words or writings shall shew themseluis to be very simple indeed So that in all probabilie he should haue some great matter to shew that makes so large an offer and yet euery one of these examples will proue in the scanning so many testimonies of his owne weaknesse and immodesty when hauing had the book foure yeares in his hands and so many of his consorts to ioyne with him in replying all which time their rage against it and desire to discredit it and vowes to confute it appeared well enough yet now at the last can obiect no other examples of vntruth then these And that we may know he comes furnished he cals for a railing roome to brawle in
Scripture Bellarmine g Bell. de verb. Dei lib. 4. c. 1. The name of tradition is applied by Diuines to signifie onely vnwritten doctrine Alphonsus h Alphons à Castr adu haer lib 1. c. 5. This is to be laid for a most sound foundation that the traditions of the vniuersall Church and the determinations thereof in things concerning faith are of no lesse authority then the sacred Scripture it selfe though there be no Scripture to proue them Hessels of Louan i Hessel expli symb c. 69. p. 38. The Apostles neuer intended by their writing to commit to writing the whole doctrine of faith but as necessity vrged them what in their absence they could not teach that they committed to writing Costerus the Iesuite k Coster enchirid p. 43. It was neuer the mind of Christ either to commit his mysteries to parchment or that his Church should depend on paper writings Lindane l Lind. panopl. pag. 4. We Catholickes teach that Christians are to beleeue many things which are to be acknowledged for Gods word that are not contained in the Scripture and many things finally to be receiued with the same authoritie wherewith those doctrines of faith are receiued which are contained in holy writ Rodericus Delgado m Roderic dosm de autor Script l. vlt. p. 63 Albeit these things are not found written in the Bible yet they must no lesse be obserued by the godly that they may fulfill the precepts and firmely beleeue the mysteries of the heauenly faith Doctor Stapleton n Staplet princip doctr l. 12. cap. 5. There both were among the Iewes and are among vs very many things religiously performed in the worship of God and also necessary to saluation and necessarily to be beleeued which yet are not comprehended in the Scriptures but are approued or commended to vs ONELY by the authority of the Church Gregory of Valentia o Valent. tom 3. p. 258. D. All the controuersie is whether the Apostles by word of mouth WITHOVT WRITING deliuered any such doctrines as now affoord an infallible argument for the determining of the controuersies of faith in the Church These wordes of our aduersaries make it more then plaine that the Church of Rome holds the Scriptures vnsufficient not onely in respect of breeding faith or bringing men to know and beleeue it ordinarily which we grant but also in respect of containing it in themselues which we deny And that my aduersary holds the same thing I will prone directly For ha-laid downe 4. grounds First that true faith is necessary Secondly that this faith is onely one Thirdly that this faith must be certaine Fourthly and entire in all points he addes the fift that it must not be doubted but God hath prouided and left some certaine rule and meanes whereby euery man may in all points and questions be sufficiently and infallibly instructed WHAT is to be holden for true faith and then immediately he puts the question what in particular may be assigned to be this rule wherto he answers in his first conclusion The Scripture alone especially as translated into English cannot be this rule Which I denied Therefore his question was touching the sufficiency of the Scripture as the said sufficiency is opposed to vnwrittē traditiō not as it is distinguished against the requisite condition of the meanes to be vsed for the vnderstanding of the Scripture And this I confirme for my aduersary saies they hold the Scripture to be part of the rule because it is part of the doctrine of the Church immediatly reuealed by God but yet there are many substantiall points of faith not contained in them Yea p Pag. 67. Reply his expresse words are The question is betwixt vs and Protestants whether God did reueale any thing to the Prophets and Apostles necessary to be beleeued which is not now expressed or so contained in the Scripture that by euident and necessary consequence excluding all tradition and Church authority it may be gathered out of some sentence expresly set downe in the Scripture I did not therefore peruert the state of the question but my Aduersary hauing nothing else to say thought good by this shift to rid himselfe from that which he saw could not be answered 4 Neuerthelesse pleasing himselfe with his owne conceite he concludes that conuicted with the euidence of truth I haue yeelded to his conclusion in that sence wherein he meant it That Scripture alone is not the rule of faith And therefore all my discourse is idle and impertinent I answer two things first if his conclusion The Scripture alone is not this rule which almighty God hath prouided whereby euery man may sufficiently be instructed WHAT is to be holden for true faith meane no more but onely to adde the Ministry of the Church and mens owne industry to the Scripture as the meanes for the ordinary vnderstanding and beleeuing that which is written in it in this sence the Scripture alone is the rule whereby to iudge whatsoeuer matter belongs to faith but Scripture alone is not the ordinary rule and meanes by it selfe to kindle in vs the true knowledge and faith of that which it containes without the Ministrie of the Church and other things be ioyned with it for the learning of it then I grant it and require the Iesuite againe in lieu thereof either to renounce his traditions or else confesse they haue no other vse but onely to helpe to expoūd and teach that which is wholly contained in the Scripture without any power to supply any defect of doctrine that may be supposed to be therein And when he hath done the next treatise of faith he writes to distinguish a little better betweene the Rule and the Meanes of applying it and not say that is no sufficient rule whereby to be instructed WHAT is faith and WHAT not which onely is not a sufficient meanes to bring men to faith without the subordinate condition of such meanes as is required in the application of any rule Secondly I answer that his conclusion meanes more viz. That Scripture alone is vnperfect and defectiue 2. waies The first in that without other meanes it doth not ordinarily breed or draw foorth in vs assent to that it reueales nor so much as make vs see the reuelation to be And therefore there needes the Church by her Pastor to teach and perswade vs and there needes the Spirit of God and industrie in our selues This way no Protestant euer denied The second is in that it alone containes not all Gods word or all such truth as he hath reuealed necessarily to be beleeued but onely one small and obscure part thereof the best part or at least some part being by Tradition onely vnwritten This way we deny with open mouth and the Iesuite holds it and in the place now controuerted hugges it in his armes and therefore I discoursed against him as I did and in no other sense and so consequently it is
say touching the inuisiblenesse of the Church 2 Their doctrine touching the time of Antichrists reigne 3 And the state of the Militant Church at some times 4 Arguments for the perpetuall visiblenesse of the Church answered 5 In whom the true Church consisted before Luthers times Pag. 242. A. D. For declaration of the truth Note first that although the Church of Christ at the beginning and infancy of it were little like a mustard seed Matthew 13. vers 31. Apoc. 20.1.4 Apoc. 20.1.4 August l. de ciuit cap. 11. and about the very end for the short reigne of Antichrist shall be much decaied both in the number of professors and the visiblenesse of the outward state of it as all things commonly are little in their beginning and do decay towards their end yet for all ages betwixt these two times as it did at first grow and increase and spread it selfe ouer the world notwithstanding the wonderfull opposition made against it by persecutions heresies schismes and sinfull liues of Christians so it is described in Scripture to be still a great multitude spread ouer the world August de vnit eccl as S. Augustine proueth at large against the Donatistes the which proofes of S. Augustine were nought worth if it might be answered as the Donatistes were forced to answer that the Church after a time did perish out of all nations White p. 87. or as M. White seemeth ready to answer that it came to be in all nations a small number For which imaginary smalnesse of the number betwixt the first beginning and the latter ending especially for so long time as Protestants are forced to plead inuisibility of their Church M. White will neuer be able to shew any Prophesie of Scripture sufficient to oppose against S. Austines proofes more then the Donatistes could for the Church her perishing out of all nations 1 HE grants the Church at the beginning and toward the end thereof may be like a little mustard seed and much decaied both in the number of Professors and in the visiblenesse of the outward state of it Hence it followes that it is true we say the Church sometimes is obscured and not alwaies so frequent and illustrious for when the externall state thereof consisting in the publicke administration of the word Sacraments and Ecclesiasticall discipline and in the profession of the faith begins to be corrupted in any high degree and the most and the greatest become the corruptest then it must also be saied that it is obscured and hidden from the world Hence it followes secondly that these assertions of our aduersaries the visible Church neuer failes and this God hath at all times a Church consisting not of a few people but a great multitude as conspicuous as any earthly kingdome and this the Church is visible and such as may be clearely seene and cannot be hidden are all false if they be meant of the purest part of the Church For to be decaied in such sense as the Repliar * If he wil confesse that which is granted by Saplet relect p. 41. §. Ecclesia quoad bene esse Grego Valent tom 3. p. 145. §. Animaduerti debet non sic accipiendum quod dicimus must confesse howsoeuer here to conceale the truth he speake reseruedly and to consist of a great multitude as conspicuous as any earthly kingdome cannot stand together forsomuch as the one is the corruption of the other Whence it followes thirdly that the true teaching and ministry of the Church is not alwaie so open and easie to be discerned as the Repliar saies all ouer his Booke for this teaching followes the state of the Church which being conspicuous the teaching also is conspicuous but the state of the Church being poisoned and ouer-whelmed with heresie the teaching must needes be hard to discerne and lesse conspicuous then the Scriptures 2 Secondly he notes that howsoeuer the Church may at the beginning be little and toward the ende for p That the raigne of Antichrist is so short he hath no assurance among his own writers diuers whereof say the contrary the short reigne of Antichrist be much decaied both in the number of Professors and visiblenesse of the outward state yet for all ages betwixt the beginning and the end it shall be a great multitude as S. Austine proues Whereto I answer graunting that many times the Church is and hath bene as large and visible as S. Austine saies and that we do not imagine it to be so small and obscured at all times betweene the beginning and the ende but onely at some times as for example in the 13. and 14. hundred yeares neither is there a word in all S. Austine whereby it may appeare his iudgement is against vs. That which the Iesuit thought good to alleadge I q §. 23. n 3. answered in THE WAY whereto it seemes he hath nothing to reply And graunting that it may be as obscure as we say in the time of Antichrist he were as good yeeld vp his cause for if his owne D.D. be not deceaued the time of Antichrist is not so short as he dreames our Iesuites though very waueringly indeed allow him but 3. yeares and a halfe But what saies r Indic de Apocal Antichr sub fin being a Preface before his translation of Arethas vpon the Apocal. in Oecumen O hers also allow Antichrist a longer time then 3. yeares and a halfe Quantum vero temporis in augenda stabiliendaque Monarchia ponere debeat non mihi constat quia neque ex praedictis locis satis colligitur neque videtur admodum verisimile breui tempore trium annorum cum dimidio haec omnia esse perfecturum Fra. Suar. tom 2. p. 641. defens fid Cathol l. 5. c 9. Quam diu simpliciter regnaturus sit Antichristus à nullo quod ego sciam traditur nulli opinor mortalium fuisse compertum Perer. in Dan. l. 15. in c. 12. p 730. and so others who thinke the height of his reigne shall containe onely 3. yeares and a halfe but the rest of his time much more Hentenius Others otherwise expound A TIME AND TIMES AND HALFE A TIME For it is not possible that in so small a time he should possesse so many kingdomes and prouinces If therefore M. White affirme the Church in regard of the sincerest faith at sometimes comes to be but a small number he affirmes nothing but what the Iesuite himselfe is inforced to yeeld at least in the times of Antichrist Here then is an issue betweene vs. The Church may be inuisible as the Protestants hold in the time of the reigne of Antichrist But the time of the Popes being for example in the 13. and 14. age was a part of the time of the reigne of Antichrist The Church therefore might be inuisible for the time of the Popes being in the 13. and 14. age If my aduersarie mislike the conclusion he must deny the minor
Fathers held is holden at this day by Pastors of our Church or at least may stay him from thinking that the same faith is not holden If all that view his foresaid considerations proue indifferent either to the cause or of indifferent iudgement that which is holden this day by the Pastors of the Repliars Church will not be deemed the same doctrine which the ancient Fathers held I say vpon his foresaid considerations it cannoy be deemed so he may haue new considerations or something else in store to stay men and if I meet it it shall be answered but this foresaid is too absurd for first I deny not the Catalogue of Pastors for the first 600 yeares whereof the question in this place is to be of such as preserued the truth inuiolate but affirme those very persons to haue bin the true Pastors of the true Church would my selfe giue them vp for a catalogue of such assigne no other but I require the Repliar to make it manifest against the obiection that they held as their iudgment and professed as their faith those speciall points of Popery that we renounce And let him not reply that they held and professed them at least implicitè but say ingenuously whether they be to be found in their books for example Transubstantiation the sacrifice of the Masse the worship of images the Popes primacy and Monarchy ouer the world The which point not being shewed in his foresaid considerations but directly auoided by a cōceit of their beleeuing at least implicitè how may an indifferent man see or by staying neuer so long hope to see the Papacy in the Fathers 4 Againe he sayes if his aduersaries will deny the Catalogue of Pastors which he hath set downe to be of such as haue preserued the truth he must require them to assigne another of their owne And Secondly to note the first Pastor in his Catalogue that failed in preseruing the truth And Thirdly in assigning our Catalogue not to assigne such as are ordinarily answered by Catholicke authors but some plaine instances which his demand if it cānot be answered as he is sure it cannot then the Repliar concludes euery discreet man may if he will driue out his owne wit to make roome for Ad 1 his To the first all the Papists aliue cannot by good discourse driue vs to assigne a Catalogue it being sufficient to say that no doctrine wants lineall succession that accords with the Scripture neuerthelesse for the first 600 yeares we assigne the Church wherein the Fathers liued and for the rest to this day we will assigne no other Catalogue thē the Church of Rome it selfe wherin many of those whom the Repliar hath couched in his Catalogue professed the foundation of the truth that wee Ad 2 maintaine To the second I answered in THE WAY so fully Ad 3 that the Iesuite had no list to reply To the third those particular men whom we name and this blatant beast calls a rabble of ragged heretickes were Gods deare children and better professors of the truth then the reuerend ranke of his Popes and Friars who were and yet are nothing else but the great Antichrist that was prophesied should fit in the Church of God among whom these men and many ordinary Pastors and people of the Church of Rome liuing and holding the foundation of faith and in the agony of their conscience renouncing the damnable heresies of the Papacy it cannot be denied but the Church of Rome it selfe affoords vs a Catalogue sufficient For the Repliar is too simple and deceaues himselfe if he thinke we place the Church onely in Berengarius Wickliffe Husse Ierome the Waldenses and the rest of that sort But we name them as some particular eminent members in the Church of Rome for so we terme all these westerne parts by reason of the Patriarchie lesse corrupted then were many others and vnto them we adde all others in the said Church that held the articles of faith either in solid or in part though it were Occham Gerson Armachanus Cesenas Ardeus Potho Sauanarola or any such for albeit they held many errors yet the truth among their errors was preserued and I affirme that it is sufficient for the succession of the Church and being of the faith if the parts thereof and all the seuerall particulars belonging to saluation can be shewed to haue bene held in any Church albeit no one man in the same or in the world can be shewed to haue holden them all entirely himselfe That * Prot. Apolog. tract 2. c. 2. sect 3.4.5.6 7. our aduersaries may see they do but trifle away the time when they labour so contentiously to shew that Wicklife or Husse or the Albingenses differed in some things from vs no member of the Church in the world being at all times free from euery spot and wrinkle of error CHAP. XLV 1. The Fathers are not against the Protestants but with them 2. Touching the Centuries reiecting of the Fathers The cause of some errors in the Fathers 3. Gregories Faith conuerting England 4. The Papists haue bene formall innouators 5. How they excuse the matter A. D. In which point if he desire to be more fully satisfied Pag. 271. let him reade Iodocus Coccius his Booke intituled Catholicus thesaurus controuersiarum in which he shall see particularly set downe point by point the ancient Fathers with vnanime consent testifying for vs against Protestants The which to be so in many points the Magdeburgians being themselues famous Protestants do likewise testifie who hauing taken great paines in seeking ancient histories and monuments of the Fathers writings to see if they could finde any testimony of authority to countenance their cause are forced at last to acknowledge the ancient Fathers to testifie in many things against them and for vs all which their testimonies they thinke to wipe away with saying that these were the errors or blemishes of these Fathers which is as good a iest as if a guilty person being desirous to cleare himselfe at the barre by the witnesse of honest men and hauing diligently sought and finding that all honest men will beare witnesse against him yet to make a shew wil needs bring in a number of honest substantial men bidding them to giue their verdit of purpose that when they all haue deliuered the truth See the Protestants Apology where these points are hādled largely Tract 1 sect 1. deinceps he may forsooth say they all lie or are deceaued This also to be so is shewed in the Protestants Apologie where particularly is proued out of diuerse learned Protestant writers first that the faith we professe is the same that Saint Gregory professed and by Saint Austine the Monke taught vs English men at our first conuersion Secondly that the same faith was vniuersally professed for sundry ages before and namely that it agreed in substance with the first faith to which the Brittans were conuerted in the Apostles
* Jtaque ne in posteruÌ„ quidem Lipsi rosas ogita sesamam aut papauer sed spinas si as aâ—â—ynthium acetuÌ„ Lips const 1.10 I must craue the readers patience if contrarie to my vsuall course he finde me in this passage something sharpe because M. Whites outrages are such as require more then an ordinarie sharp reprehension Let him therefore take the Gun roome or if he will the n Lucian Iupit Tragoe 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cart where in old time they vsed to raile freeliest I am indifferent what he say hauing propounded to my selfe to answer not his scurrilitie but his Diuinitie though he keepe so good promise in this he threatens and his insolencies both in railing and bragging be such that it were able to dissolue into some passion or other the best patience that an aduersary can haue And had he as well performed the grosse vntruths he vndertakes to shew as he hath his sharpnesse which he promises he might haue gone for a good pay-master but to raile and run away is womens fight If he would haue men to thinke my outrages are such as he sayes he should haue expressed some of them and quoted the pages of my booke where the reader might see them which when he doth not nor cannot do the reader may suspect he sayes this to make way for his owne railing For the Booke it selfe will testifie what I haue done better then any thing I can say here wherein there are I denie not many sharp and bitter speeches against the abuses of the Church of Rome but they are not mine but the Papists whom being vrged thereunto I alledge it is one of the things that hath alwaies made me haue a base opinion of our aduersaries that these foule tales of their Church being blabbed out by themselues yet they would neuer giue vs leaue to report them againe or mention them Other outrage or railing then this I haue vsed none nor neuer did in all my conflicts with theÌ„ neither is it my maner to practise or defend it but by this my last will testament I bequeath it in legacie to himselfe and o Namely to D. Harding StapletoÌ„ Sanders Parsons Euans Surius Feuardentius Gret ferus I'acenius his Cleargie and other his consorts whose spirit I haue reasonably tasted these many yeares together p Iude v 9. The Angell disputing with the Diuell about the bodie of Moses durst not blame him with reuiling speeches but bad the Lord rebuke him According to which example I wish there were lesse bitternesse and more going to the argument in their writings For mine owne part q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Isid Pelus pag. 453. I thinke it not so meete to speake euery thing that my aduersarie deserues to heare as to let nothing passe me that becomes not my selfe CHAP. II. 1. The Papists trampling of the Scriptures and preferring their Church 2. The Church of Rome touched in her honestie and reported to be a whore The conditions of a whore Pag. 22. A. D. First in his epistle Dedicatorie in which he speaketh not to simple men but to his most reuerend Fathers in God Toby the Archbishop of Yorke his Grace Primate and Metropolitan of England and to George Lord Bishop of Chester his very good Lords he affirmeth to our disgrace that all our speech is of the Church no mention of the Scriptures or God our Father but of our Mother the Church the which he confirmeth with a scurrilous comparison Much like saith he as they write of certaine Ethiopians that by reason they vse no mariage but promiscuously companie together it commeth that the children follow the mother the fathers name is in no request but the mother goeth away with all the reputation Thus he Now how lowd and lewd an vntruth this is I referre to the iudgement of any man almost neuer so simple supposing he haue had any ordinarie conuersation with Catholickes or be in a meane measure acquainted with their words and writings For what man is so simple who cannot discerne this to be euidently contrarie to our ordinarie practise and common speech and contrarie to our profession and publicke doctrine of faith And is it then possible that a Minister whose name is White should haue a face so blacke as without blushing so soberly to asseuere such a notorious vntruth especially in the sight or hearing of those his good Lords and reuerend Fathers in God Surely it is maruell that those his reuerend Fathers or some for them did not examine and marke this and other his grosse vntruths or marking them that they would for their credits sake suffer them to passe especially twice to the print And much more maruell it is that in stead of reproouing the man for such his shamefull vntruths which had beene the dutie of reuerend Fathers in God they would permit him to vse their names in the forefront or beginning of his booke by which men may suppose that they by their authoritie doe canonize or at least giue countenance to so many his grosse errors and vntruths as are found in this his booke 1 THe first example of my outrages and insinceritie is in those words of the epistle Dedicatorie All their speech is of the Church no mention of the Scriptures or God our Father but of our mother the Church c. Wherein if there be any trespasse yet he shewes it but meanly by saying it is a lewd and lowd vntruth and referring the matter to such as are acquainted with Catholickes and their writings For this and the railing that followes and his emptie maruelling at the BB. that would permit me to say so purges not Papists from the imputations but charges them deeper For S. Chrysostome sayes that a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hom 22. Rom. when a mans aduersarie fals to scolding it is a signe he is guiltie And if the truth must be tried by the words and writings of his Catholickes then the matter will go well enough on M. Whites side For how should the coÌ„moÌ„ people of whoÌ„ I properly spake talk of the Scripture which they know not b THE WAY § 2. n. 3. See Staplet relect pag. 535. which they are forbidden to reade c THE WAY § 1. n. 3. which they must beleeue containes the least part of that which belongs to their faith The Rhemists d Annot. Luc. 12 11. teach lay Catholickes when any of them are called before the commission to answer that he is a Catholicke man and that he will liue and die in that faith which the Catholicke Church teaches and this Church can giue them a reason of all the things which they demand of him and he that answers thus they say saith enough and defends himselfe sufficiently Here we see all their speech is of the Church no mention of the Scriptures And he that dwels among them or hath occasion to discourse with them of religion shall finde the truth
The second thing he replies is that the reason why they hold something else beside Scripture to be the rule are two First because we learne so out of the Scripture which he sayes he hath shewed both in his Treatise and in this Reply This is false as appeares in my Answer to his Treatise and shall yet further be manifest in this Defence against his Reply Secondly because we finde it necessarie to admit some other infallible rule and meanes to assure vs both what bookes be Scripture and what interpretation is to be followed which meanes is the authoritie of the Church Fathers Councels and Pope This reason is answered b §. 9. n. 3. and there Digâ— 2â— in THE WAY and hereafter in this DEFENCE and albeit the true Church of Christ which is not the Pope and his Consistorie be a subordinate meanes out of the Scripture it selfe to teach and leade vs forward to the knowledge of the Scripture and the interpretation as a Iudge shewes and expounds the law yet this proues not the Scripture not to be the rule but shewes that God hath commanded the ministerie of his Church to teach and guide vs by that rule For let any Papist say is the Law it selfe but one part of the rule of our obedience to the King and the Iudge the other so that the Law and the Iudge both together make but one rule because we finde it necessarie to admit the Iudge as a meanes infallibly to assure vs both which is the Law and what interpretation thereof is to be followed Not the Law in respect of vs hath all his authoritie in it selfe from the King and is the complete rule of euery mans obedience for more is no man bound to then the Law requires and yet magistrates are vsed to expound and publish it So is it with the Scriptures and therefore the Protestants haue meanes sufficient to secure their faith 6 But where he sayes in the margent that this infallible meanes that must so necessarily be admitted to assure vs what bookes be Scripture and what interpretation is to be followed is the authoritie of the Church Fathers Councels Pope I must admonish him c See THE WAY digr 16. n. 4. and below chap. 35. n. 1. that the current doctrine of Rome is that neither Church Fathers nor Councels exercise this authoritie infallibly but onely the Pope and that his sole definitiue sentence is the last and highest authoritie to secure vs and therefore the Iesuite is bound out and all Papists with him for euer from pretending any other infallible meanes beside the Pope whose iudgement alone being their Load-starre they doe but flatter themselues and mocke vs to our faces when they talke of Church and Councels But because I said the Church Fathers Councels and Pope by themselues were yeelded to be subiect to error and so consequently could not secure them therefore he obiects that a few pages before I acknowledged that it is a principle of their owne that a generall Councell cannot erre If by their owne principles a Councell cannot erre which I confesse there then it is false that I say here the Church the Fathers a Councell the Pope are yeelded by themselues to be subiect to error I answer that in the Councell of d Epist synodal de author cuiuslibet concil general sup Papam Basill ann 1432. it was adiudged that a generall Councell cannot erre whether the Pope confirme it or no. Since which time e Alliac Gers Maior Panorm Almain Ludov. Rom. quos refert Azor. to 2. pa. 565. 575. Viri quidam doctissimi sentiunt ConciliuÌ„ generale legitimè congregatum etiam absente Papa solidâ—m certamque habere authoritatem priusquam à summo Pontifice confirmetur Can. loc pag. 257. very many of the best learned in the Papacie haue followed that opinion therupon I said it was a principle of their owne that a generall Councel cannot erre speaking nothing of the Church Fathers or Pope and yet forsomuch as f Iacobat de conc p. 347. Bellar. de conc c. 11. Turrecr sum l. 3 c. 58. concl 2. CaietaÌ„ apol par 2. c 21. Azor. par 2. l. 5. c. 12. fauer Can pag. 259 loc the Iesuits others hold the contrary that a Councell not authorized by the Pope may erre forsomuch as Councels receiue all their strength from the Pope and g Occham dial par 1. l. 5. c. 25. 26. fauet Waldenf doct princip l. 2. c. 19. some that they may erre though the Pope do confirm them h Hadr. 4. de sacram Euchar pag. 26. others that the Pope may erre euen in his authoratiue conclusions therefore I obiected here that themselues confesse all these may erre This is neither carelesnesse nor yet saying and vnsaying in me but in them that haue no principle but it is contradicted among themselues for what I said a few pages before I spake according to the opinion of some and what I say here according to the contrary opinion of othersome Let the Iesuite shew me an vnforme opinion touching this matter in his Church and he shall deliuer me hereafter from such quarrels and exceptions as this is In the meane time when there is no certaintie or agreement in his church touching that they hold against vs but some say this and some that he must giue vs leaue to charge it with both opinions or with neither vntill they are agreed vpon a certainty Pag. 30. A. D. On the contrarie side Protestants who will admit no rule but onely Scripture doe not this for pure friendship and good will to the Scripture but for enmitie or not very good will to the Church whose authoritie while they do not admit to be infallible they haue left themselues vtterly void of all meanes sufficient to secure their faith by and to finde out the diuine infallible truth contained in the Scripture as in the Treatise and Reply is largely shewed 7 The Protestants I grant and heare solemnly affirme admit no rule whereby to trie what is matter of faith and what is not but onely Scripture the Church hath her authority if it be the true Church and lawfull Councels godly Bishops whereof the Pope is none are the ordinance of God to propound this faith vnto vs but the whole rule of the Churches iudgment is onely Scripture which if the student wil I wil say ouer again in capitall letters ONELY SCRIPTVRE ONELY SCRIPTVRE and NOTHING but Scripture for the exposition and confirmation whereof I refer him to THE WAY which he lost when he made his Reply Digr 3. And this we doe for pure friendship and good will to the Scriptures and Church both lest vngratefully against the Scriptures perniciously against the Church by relying vpon men we should leaue our selues voide of sufficient meanes to secure our faith by For a Cyril Ierosol catech pag. 15. Graec. saith the ancient Church the securitie of our faith
darkenesse for there cannot lightly be more falshood and compiled fraud together in so small a compasse then is in these bookes but whereas he sayes in the margent that Walsingham was once an earnest Protestant and is now become a good Catholike I aduise him not to be too confident for he knowes that some hauing upon Walsinghams groundes fallen to Papistry yet haue not long continued so but upon a new search haue with comfort and peace returned backe againe whence they went and therefore the surest way were to follow the order of the Pontificall and coniure him the which way of coniuring such as are reconciled to the Church of Rome I say againe is prescribed in a a Pontifical Roman part tit ordo ad reconciliand pag. â—06 of the old print solemne Booke containing the forme of many ceremonies vsed therein that it is the desperatest and basest shift that can be thus to deny such an order specially the booke containing and prescribing it being lately printed againe at Rome And if the said Walsingham turned Papist as the Iesuit reports by obseruing the sinceritie of Catholikes and the grosse lying that he found in Protestant writers I pittie his case that would refuse his religion upon supposall of that which is not so for to speake of that which I have searched into my selfe the places obiected to Bishop Iewell a man of incomparable learning and pietie whose name is sufficient to beare downe all that speake against him I finde that as the things taxed in him will be iustified so himselfe in his life time in the second edition of his defence cleared the most of them against Stapleton Harding and the rest whose obiections they are that Walsingham hath set downe dissembling the answer that the Bishop himselfe made vnto them and if I be not deceived the pretended Walsingham writ not that booke who being as he saith himselfe but a Deacon and vnskilfull at those times in the controuersies could not obiect answer meditate and conceiue the things contained in that Booke the stile and matter thereof bewrayes another author and our aduersaries were neuer yet so curious but they could be content with any forgerie and fopperie to aduance their cause and with policie to promote their religion which Gods blessed truth that needes no mans lie would abhorre to do 2 And whereas the Iesuit sayes there is ordinarily among them the spirit of meekenesse and forbearance more then can be expected among Protestants and if any Papist haue threatned and attempted vnfit things our Church doctrine doth disallow it would this were true For I haue shewed that their Church and doctrine haue allowed taught and defended the murder of kings and the absoluing of their subjects from obedience their bookes also are full of vile and inhumane speeches against our state the Iesuits themselues ioyned with the rest in the treason of Gunpowder their bookes are written not with Inke but vineger In Queene Maries time they shewed such meekenesse as the Turke vses to do at the sacking of a towne the barbarous rage of the Cleargie in those daies against the poore seruants of Iesus Christ was such that it cannot be forgotten the common sort of Recusants I haue seene so inflamed with furie that all the water in Trent would not quench it if occasion wanted not I saw Hunt a Seminarie Priest behaue himselfe so outragiously at the barre at Lancaster where he was arraigned for an assault made vpon the way upon certaine officers that were carrying a prisoner whereof he shot * G. Trauis one into the thigh with a pistoll that Sir Thomas Hesckith the Queenes attorney at that time giuing euidence against him called to haue him set farther off him and some companie stand betweene for doing him mischiefe his outrage in countenance and words were such The Bull of Pius against good Queene Elizabeth the writings of Cardinall Pool against the state in king Henries time the diuelish behauiour of the Popes clawbackes and vassals in their writings this day toward his Maiestie remember Pruritanus with his Quaere quare remember b M. Wrightintons cattell at one time and M. Bretters at another a litle before the Queenes death the poore dumb beasts pitifullie butchered in Lancashire and the Spanish inuasion with the Zeale and fury wherewith the chiefest of your side aduanced it remember finally the Inquisition and the order of the execution and talke no more of meekenesse and forbearance all which is not obiected in malice either to incense them or make them odious but onely by laying open their sinne to draw them to repentance and their followers to obedience when this their cariage hath so shaken the land disinabled the state that we cannot thinke of it but many a time and often for feare of the euent and iealousie of his Maiestie and his children with weeping teares nor speake of them but as Iacob did of his children c Gen. 49.5 Simeon and Leui brethren in evill the instruments of crueltie are in their habitation let not my soule come into their Councell if we could preuaile that way we would intreate them that are their acquaintance the band of nature and humanitie should coniure them religion by her sacred maiestie should beseech them our common Baptisme the Seale of our Christian profession should importune them their dearest countrey like Coriolanus mother should be sent out vnto them with breasts displaied and weeping teares and her haire hanging about her shoulders to reconcile them but nothing can do it no intreaty no forbearance no benefits Rome hath alienated and imbruted them and how to shew them loue we know not but must say as the Romane Lady did to her sonne in armes against his countrey d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Plutarch Coriol We cannot pray both for our owne safety and thy health but as our enemies would pray against vs for either the countrey must perish or else you must be taken out of it CHAP. XII Touching the ignorance that Papistry hath bred among people Their barbarous manner of praying auouched Of Iohn the Almoner a legend The manner how a certaine Priest baptized 2. The replies zeale for recusants of the better sort 3. A Lanc. Gentleman alledged by the reply A note of a french Knight 4. The successe of preaching in Lanc. A. D. The sixt marke saith M. White is that prodigious ignorance whereunto they fall who liue in papistry Pag. 35. for proofe whereof he setteth downe certaine examples which he saith he hath obserued from the common people to wit these insuing Creezum zuum patrum onitentem c. Little Creed c White pater noster c. After which hauing two other examples of like odde stuffe he further saith Their prayers and traditions of this sort are infinite and the ceremonies they vse in all their actions are nothing inferiour to the Gentiles in number and strangenes which saith he any man may easily obserue that conuerseth with
vntruth or vnsinceritie hath he shewed what one thing hath he performed worthy of this bragging that neither had the wit to answer the whole nor the fortune to find so much as the least error in any part of that I writ yet you see how he comes vpon the stage b Iust Mart. ib. pag. 392. like Orestes with terrible gesture his bodie bombasted vpon high stilts with a monstrous face and roaring voice not that he hopes hereby to fasten any imputation vpon me but because this is the art of these men with words and boasting to outface their aduersaries and their policie to keepe the vulgar sort of Papists in bondage to Romish drudgerie For the same Iustin c Ibid. pag 390 sayes clamorous and wording companions * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seeme admirable to some whose sloth and carelesnesse to looke into things makes them admire other mens lowd boasting 2 For what he hath discouered in my writing will appeare of it selfe without this facing and scurrilitie and I wish with all my heart that my selfe by that which he hath obiected against me and other our writers by that which Walsingham hath noted in them might be censured then should the Reader see if he would take the paines to make the triall as well by our answers as their quarrels this Walsingham to be the man that hath prostituted and set himselfe to sale to lie dissemble and calumniate and the Iesuite that thus mentions him to be a poore Empericke that hath more skill in shriuing then booking and disputing And whereas he sayes twice ouer that I and other pettie Ministers in simplicitie furnish our discourses out of other mens Note-books which is the cause why we are so often and grosly taken napping let him spet and speake out who acquainted him with my reading that he can tell so well whence I haue that I write what one place hath he shewed in all my writing to be mistaken by borrowing it from others Note-bookes What materiall quotation is there but I haue so marked it that he may see I read it in the Author himselfe Although I wil not onely not denie but freely congratulate my selfe that I haue learned and increased the little knowledge I haue by reading and vsing the writings of those whose bookes I am not worthy to beare And if either I or any other had taken any thing out of Caluin B. Iewell or M. Foxe yet might the Iesuite ill vpbraid vs with it who himself translated his whole Treatise that I answered from Greg. of Valence his Analysis fidei All his introduction containing a fourth part of his Reply out of the same mans tract de obiecto fidei His discourse of Predestination containing ten pages together verbatim out of Becanus His Appendix containing another fourth part of his Reply partly out of Gregory Valence and partly out of Stapleton The Catalogue being borrowed from Canisius Besides his continuall referring himselfe to Walsingham Briarly and Coccius So that he that so magisterially censures our reading himselfe hath stolen the whole carcasse of his very book wherein he writes this Besides let him giue a sufficient reason why it should not be lawfull for vs to vse and follow the learned Diuines of our Church as well as it is for a Papist to follow his Thomas his Robert his Stapleton his Gretser his Coccius his Aius Locutius The which vntill he can do he shall giue vs leaue to thinke as well of them as they do of these though we sound not their praises so lowd 3 And yet this conceit of vsing Note-bookes satisfies him not neither for though other mens books might deceiue vs in some things yet he sees at least some wit learning and reading in vs which makes him fall a musing But to put him out of his browne studie be it knowne vnto him and all of his mind that we follow our cause religion with knowledge and peace and a good conscience and write that we know and are able to defend against all this barking and shameles brags of their owne learning and our grounds are Gods word contained in the Scripture and the certen consent of the Church in all ages and that which makes vs the more resolute is the lothsome cariage and behauiour of our aduersaries who notwithstanding with all their endeuour cannot remoue our grounds in one question But with forgerie partialitie tyranny railing and bragging deale against vs which being the weapons of darknesse and desperation we detest and loathe dayly praying to Iesus Christ that he will hasten his comming and let it appeare who they be that haue the truth when the malice of men and the pride of Antichrist thus suppresse it in darknesse Pag. 46. A.D. Among vs it is held against good conscience to tell any formall lie in whatsoeuer matter although without harme of any although by the speaker intended for the glory of God or the good of neuer so many But it seemeth not so to be thought by at least some of the Protestant writers nay it seemeth rather that they either haue no conscience or a very large conscience and that they either seldome or neuer enter into consideration what may or may not stand with conscience or that they frame in themselues such a grosse conscience as I haue read of some Ministers of a In Apol. Eudaemon Johannis pro Henr. Garnet c. 2 See also Bolseck in vita Calumi c. 20. Geneua who held it lawfull to lie for the glory of God and for the aduancement of the Gospell conformably to which is b D. B. in his answer to M. Abbot reported also that one of our English Ministers not many yeares since being told that grosse vntruths were found in the booke of a late Protestant writer answered He cannot lie too much in this cause O wretched cause which needeth to be maintained by such wicked meanes If it were the truth and especially as some Protestants professe it to be the euident truth there should be no need to defend it with lies neither indeed whatsoeuer it be ought it in conscience or credit be defended especially with such grosse lies as sometimes it is Wherefore if Protestant writers do think their cause true and good and therupon in zeale wil needs maintain it I would aduise them for the time to come to be more carefull of truth in maintaining it then hitherto diuers of them haue bene both for conscience and credit sake and as they desire to auoide sinne and shame This passage of the Iesuite and the continuall insolency that he vseth through his Reply makes me remember the relation of * Relat. of the state of relig a noble gentleman concerning the education of the Iesuites which being fit for this place I will here set downe The Iesuites plant in their Scholers with great exactnes and skill the rootes of their Religion and nourish them with an extreame hatred and detestation of the aduerse party And
d Luc. 1 70. God spake by the mouth of his holy Prophets therefore it is expresly written that all the bookes of Scripture are Gods word Any man may see this answer to be full his question being touching this Scripture that we vse and haue in our hand where therein it was written that it selfe is Gods word For I answer that it is written in these three places whereof he hath here rehearsed two Now he replies that he doth not onely enquire how we proue in generall that there is any diuine Scripture at all but how we proue these bookes which the Church now vses to be the same that those men writ whose titles they beare which he sayes cannot be proued by the Scriptures alledged because it may still be doubted whether these bookes that we vse as the Gospell of Matthew and Marke for example be part of that Scripture which the texts alledged affirme to be inspired of God and it must likewise be proued that these texts that affirme this are themselues the word of God Whereto I answer first that granting these places to proue some diuine Scripture to be and to be inspired of God it must be granted that the Scripture may be proued so to be by the Scripture it selfe For these sentences All Scripture is giuen by inspiration Holy men spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost and such like places could not proue so much as in generall that any bookes at all whether it were these that we vse or no are diuine Scripture if themselues were not diuine I say they could not proue it truly and effectually they might say it but they could not proue it because that which shall proue it must it selfe first be a diuine testimonie Secondly prouing some diuine Scripture to be and to be inspired they proue this that we vse to be such because they so mention the Scripture they speake of that it appeares to be this that we vse and it is agreed vpon of all hands that there is no scripture but this and therefore speaking of some scripture they speake of this This is my argument That Scripture whereof the sentences alledged speake is proued thereby to be diuine But the sentences alledged speake of the same Scripture that we vse For the Church hath alwayes vnderstood it so The sentences therefore alledged proue this Scripture that we vse to be diuine And so my aduersaries demaund is satisfied I enquire not onely how it is proued by Scripture that there is some diuine Scripture which is inspired by God but that these bookes in particular are that Scripture For if it giue any testimonie at all to any Scripture at all it is to these bookes in particular which are now vsed in that it describes these bookes neither are there or haue there bene any other nor dares the Church of Rome it selfe hitherto canonize any other howsoeuer some therein think it may 2 To this my aduersarie replies that before these sentences can sufficiently proue the Scripture to be diuine they must themselues be supposed to be diuine which cannot be proued by themselues if Tradition be excluded I answered this e Digr 12. in my Booke whereto he hath replied neuer a word but stands dumbe and offers the Reader that which I answered in stead of a Reply to my answer neuerthelesse I answer againe that all places in the Scripture which affirme the Scripture to be Gods word are proued to be Gods word by themselues and their owne light and not by Tradition or Church-authoritie which is but the ministerie whereby God reueales the proofe to vs and it selfe is iudged by the Scripture For if the Church-authoritie make them to be canonicall and diuine * For that is it properly that the Papists say Bellar. Stapl. Grego to vs then it is either by adding truth diuinitie authoritie to them which they had not before in themselues by diuine inspiration or onely by declaring and reuealing to vs that truth diuinitie and authoritie which they haue immediatly from God of themselues before the Church approued them that we might see and confesse it The former our aduersaries will not say or if they will it is Atheisme worse then blasphemie for so all our faith and the highest reason mouing vs to beleeue should not be diuine reuelation but humane authoritie and the Scripture which of it selfe had no truth or diuine inspiration should be canonized by men If the latter which our aduersaries dare not denie then who sees not that they proue themselues and in themselues haue diuine authoritie immediatly from God the Church-authoritie in approuing them being nothing else but bare ministerie in respect of the Scripture though in regard of vs it be authoritie in helping vs to see that which is in themselues When the King stampes coine and signes it with his image and superscription he puts that valew and currentnesse into it that was not there before Thus a small peece of copper of it selfe originally not worth a penie may be made worth sixe pence Thus the Church authorizes not the Scripture Stapleton f Staplet relect pag. 505. in explicat art sayes The Church approues not the Scripture the first way by making it sacred diuine for this approbation it hath onely from the holy Ghost the author thereof of whom alone it hath to be sacred and not humane nor the second way by making that through her iudgement it should be accepted for true and worthy credit because that which is in the Scripture is the diuine truth BY IT SELFE AND IS NOT MADE TRVE BY THE APPROBATION OF THE CHVRCH But the third way in that by the force of her approofe and iudgement they are accepted of the faithfull for sacred and diuine and infallible true And thus we beleeue these Scriptures to be Canonicall for the testimonie of the Church The King sends a commission vnder seale by a messenger this messenger giues no authoritie to the commission but is the Kings minister authorized to propound it to the subiects Thus the Church giues testimonie to the Scriptures that it is diuine and no otherwise and it selfe fetches this testimonie from the Scripture and all the authoritie thereof is lastly resolued into the testimonie of the Scripture 3 Next these Scriptures are proued to be diuine by their owne light shining and by their owne vertue shewing it selfe in them as sweetnesse is knowne by it owne taste and the Sunne seene by it owne light and as the Kings coine is knowne by his image vpon it and the fathers voice is knowne to his children by the sound and fashion thereof so are these Scriptures by the heauenly light image and sound inspired into them knowne to be the word of God The aduersaries against whom I deale haue here with Turks and Infidels debarred me from alledging Scripture to proue it selfe and therefore I will shew it otherwise Canus a Papist g Can. loc l. 2. c. 8. pag. 13.
Scriptures make the Church perfect by cōmending it to it self for thē the Apostles should speak thus by my aduersaries exposition the Scriptures are profitable to make the Church perfect by commending to it the authority of the Church and yet he defendes it First because it sendes them Pastors Pope Councell and all to the interpretations of Councels and Fathers of the ancient Church But then I demand how did they make perfect the ancient Church it selfe the first Councels and Fathers of whom the Apostle speakes as well as of the latter for they had none to retire to but the Scripture onely Secondly because the Pastors of the Church sustaine two persons one as publike Pastors authorized to teach another as priuate men needing instruction themselues and so the Apostle saies the Scripture sends them as priuate men to themselues considered as publike men inabled as need shall require to define the truth in any point the which is an irkesome answer to any that shall consider it for although a Pastor be considered these 2. waies yet it is false that is assumed that he which as a priuate man erres and is ignorant yet as a publike person is able to direct himselfe and others and define the truth this I say is a trick to mocke an ape with though it be all the shift they haue to defend the Pope from being a formall hereticke and yet admitting it to be true that the Pastors of the Church considered as priuate men are sent to themselues considered as publike men yet it cannot be true that the Scripture makes thē perfect this way by sending and commending them to themselues because the perfection auouched is the effect of that teaching that reprouing that correcting that instructing which is contained in the Scripture it selfe and not in the authoritie of man whither the Scripture is imagined to send vs. For all that the Apostle in this text affirmes is of the Scripture alone as appeares 7 Besides my argument I alleadged some testimonies of Chrysostome and certaine Papists to iustifie my exposition wherein they affirme as much out of the text as I doe whereto he replies that the said testimonies must either be explicated to mean that the Scriptures are able to instruct vs with the meanes of Church authority or else be taken without limitation if they be thus explicated they proue nothing against him if they be taken without limitation they proue as much against vs as against him I answer to the first the testimonies are to be seene and the words thereof are so full that they cannot be thus explicated as for example Chrysostome in his words expounds S. Paul to distinguish the Scripture against his owne ministry Thou hast the Scripture to teach thee in steed of me if thou desire to know anything there thou maiest learne it that which can teach vs in steed of the Church Pastours can teach vs without their authority if God as Antonin says hath spokē but once that in the Scriptures that so fully that he speakes no more how can the meaning be that other authority should be ioyned with them for so God should speake twice once in the Scriptures another time in the Church and in the Scripture so far from fully that he needs speake againe in the Church The like may be said to the other testimonies but I refer the iudgement to the conscience of the Reader To the second if these words be taken without limitation that alone without any means ioyned to thē they are able to instruct vs they proue as much against me as against him that its maruell I should haue so little iudgement I demand and why so I pray because then they will make as much against our Church ministery as against his Church authority which had bene spoken to the point if we by Church ministry had meant either the same or as much as he doth by Church authority but when his Church authority intends a supply of that which is wanting in the Scripture by traditions our Church ministry no more but a simple cōdition of vsing the meanes to make vs see that which is contained in thē which ministry also we do not hold to be alway vnto all persons necessary he may let our iudgements alone and take a new reckoning of his owne that is so simple as to make alike things that are so far vnlike his Church authority and our Church ministry CHAP. XXXII Touching priuate spirits that expound against the Church 1. Such priuate expositions refused by the Protestants 2. And yet the Papists haue no other All teaching is to be examined euen by priuate men 5. Certaine propositions shewing how the Church teaching may be or may not be examined and refused Pag. 196. Wootton p. 110 White pag. 62. A.D. Concerning the ninth Chapter M. Wootton and M. White both seeme to disclaime from immediate teaching of priuate spirits and consequently seeme to grant the substance of the conclusion of this Chapter in such sense as it was principally intended by me yet wheresoeuer they be vrged to tell how they infallibly know that there is any Scripture at all and that these and no other bookes be Canonicall Scripture and that this or that is the true interpretation and sense of this or that text of holy Scripture vpon which questions well resolued the whole frame of their faith doth depend after alledging other reasons drawne from rules of art and knowledge of tongues c. which they know to be infallible they must be forced finally to flie for infallible assurance either to the immediate teaching of their priuate spirit or else to run the round betwixt Scripture and priuate spirit in such sort as I haue shewed in the Introduction Introd q. 6. and hence it seemeth to proceed that they both thought fit to make answer to my reasons which they needed not to haue done if the conclusion of this Chapter had no waies bene contrary to their doctrine White pag. 59. 60. M. White before he begin to answer my reasons distinguisheth a double meaning of the word priuate which I put in my conclusion and saith that if I meant it as it is opposed ô strange opposition to diuine and spirituall I said well but vsing it as we Catholickes do as it is opposed to common he saith that a priuate man may so be assisted with the Holy Ghost that he may interprete Scripture truely and infallibly against a company as big as the Roman Church 1 HIs third conclusion touching the rule of faith was that no priuate man who perswadeth himselfe to be specially instructed by the spirit can be this rule of faith specially so far foorth as he teaches or beleeues contrary to the receiued doctrine of the Catholicke Church the which I granted to be true but admonished the Reader withall that he had a further reach therein then yet he made shew of For his intent was to condemne all particular men and
iudge and i Gi. d. 19 Auast §. in concilio in a difficult cause whether of faith or right he must call a Councel where if the Councel he cannot agree in deciding but are contrary k AntoÌ„ de â—â—o â—eâ—â— Mon â—â—h â—â—ct de concil p 47. â—urtâ—â—eÌ„ d. 19. Sâ—cundum E câ— n. 6. then they of the two must be followed which haue the best reasoÌ„ l â—urâ—ecrem d. 40. Si â—â—pa n. 4. Simaâ—ch Cathol instit tit 12 n. 13. when the faith lies in danger the Cardinals or a CouÌ„cell may resist the Pope in all which cases how shall a priuate man or a whole nation be infallibly assured of truth the Pope may erre he may erre definitiuely against a CouÌ„cell he may be an hereticke he may be resisted the Councell also may erre the faith may be indangered therefore men must try their reasons all this is confessed Where now is this iudge that my aduersary talkes of neither the Pope nor a Councell is it for men must follow them of the two that had the best reasons who shall iudge of their reasons the Christian people whom the cause concernes And by what can they iudge but by some thing distinct from both Councell and Pope and aboue them both which is the m So Occham GersoÌ„ Panorm The Diuines now of Venice and Paris in their tractats of this matter Scripture or nothing And for so much as no man can vnderstand the Scripture without Gods Spirit therefore in the case propounded our aduersaries must allow both Pope and Councell to be tried by priuate spirits as much as we do the teaching of the Church Let the most zealous and learned Papist that liues consider this and he shall perceiue that what we meane when we say The Scripture is the supreme rule and the true sense thereof is assured vnto vs lastly and authoratiuely by the Spirit of God themselues are driuen to hold as well as we Therefore whatsoeuer my aduersary hath rabbled together in his Introduct it is no more a circle in vs to proue our spirit by the Scripture and againe to be assured of the Scripture by the Spirit then it is in discourse to go too and fro betweene causes and effects But * See D. R. Field 2. part Append. p. 12. § 5. 6. where this point is shewed effectually it is himselfe and his owne Diuines that runne the round 3 Thirdly he saies that I needed not haue answered the reasons of his conclusion if the conclusion had not bene against our doctrine but this is idle for I answered the reasons because of that which the conclusion intended Good wordes especially with equiuocators may haue a bad purpose in which case the sense must be distinguisht and that which is false confuted 4 Fourthly he saies 2. things about my distinguishing of the word priuate For the vnderstanding whereof note that his conclusion being No priuate man perswading himselfe to be instructed by the Spirit can be the Rule of faith I answered that if he meant priuate when he sayes so often in the proces of his argument priuate spirits as it is opposed to diuine and spirituall he said well but vsing it in another sense as it is opposed to common and vsuall his conclusion was vntrue To this he replies first ô strange opposition but this he doth onely by the way because he would not loose a Parenthesis His head being so full of mentall reseruations that it makes his booke breake out all ouer into Parentheses as if it were full of the Measels for when particular men and priuate spirits do not erre by reason of their small number but by holding against that which is diuine and spirituall what such strange opposition is it to oppose the priuate spirit against the diuine Spirit of God and a priuate man against him that is spirituall In this sense No priuate mans spirit can be the rule if by priuate he meane not that which is not so common but that which is not diuine and spirituall But this is not worth the standing on his second exception is against the matter of the distinction For I said a priuate man may be so assisted by the holy Ghost that he may interpret Scripture truely and infallibly against a company as bigge as the Romane Church To this he replies denying my supposition that it is not to be thought the holy Ghost assists any that expoundes the Scripture contrary to the vniuersall Catholicke Church the which I thinke too and therefore this is not the point in question when we both agree but the point is whether these priuate men and spirits being expounded to be Luther such as he was with the Churches that cast off the Papacy this Catholicke and vniuersall Christian Church being expounded as it is by our aduersary to be the Papacy or Roman Church theÌ„ whether the priuate coÌ„pany may not haue Gods Spirit and the great company want it and so consequently the said priuate company be able to haue the truth against that which A. D. calles the Catholicke vniuersall Church for we affirme it Not by saying that Luther or any of our side had Gods Spirit or saw any truth which the true Church did not see but that they had and saw the the truth in the middest of the Church against the Papacy which now ridiculously is stiled the Catholicke vniuersall Church And therefore my aduersay and all of his side do but trifle away time in opposing the vniuersall Church against M. Luther vntill they haue proued the Papacy to be it and Luther with such as followed him no part of it For he resisted not the Catholicke Church but the Papacy in the Catholicke Church A. D. I do not deny but that a priuate man Pag. 196. supposing he were indeede assisted by the holy Ghost might interpret Scripture truely and infallibly against a company as bigge as the Romane Church supposing this company were not so assisted But herein consisteth the chiefe point of the question whether it be to be thought that the holy Ghost doth indeed or not assist one or some few priuate men who presuming that they are so assisted do interpret the holy Scripture in such sense as is contrary to the sense of the holy Catholike or vniuersall Christian Church whether it be Romane or not I do not now dispute this we shall see hereafter which as I shall proue is vndoubtedly knowne by the promises of Christ to haue the assistance of the holy Ghost This being the point in question my conclusion in this Chapter is that no priuate man pretending neuer so much to be spiritual or specially inspired is to be thought indeede inspired by the holy Ghost when he interpreteth Scripture as Luther and his like did in a sense contrary to the vnanime interpretation of the precedent and then liuing Pastours of the Catholicke Church and consequently it is not to be thought that the priuate spirit
of such a man is to be followed in interpretatioÌ„ of Scripture or otherwise as the rule of faith or as a sufficient infallible means to leade men and to direct them in the knowledge of matters which are to be beleeued by faith Now this being the sense of my conclusion let vs heare how my aduersaries will answer my proofes 5 First he grants that a priuate man assisted by the holy Ghost may interpret Scripture truly and infallibly against a company as big as the Romane Church supposing the said company were not so assisted but it is not to be thought that the holy Ghost forsakes the Catholick Church to assist any who interpret contrary to it Which I thinke too and therfore neuer denied his coÌ„clusion nor gaine-said the arguments whereby he confirmed it in this generall sense But when these priuate men were expounded to be the reformed Churches and their Pastors and this holy Catholicke vniuersall Christian Church vnderstood to be the Papacy and the Romish faction then I affirmed that priuate men might haue the Spirit of God and his truth and the Church want it But that I be not mistaken and that the Reader may vnderstand wherein I and my aduersaries differ Note that the name of the Church may be taken 3. waies First for the whole company of such as professe Christ and his Gospell collectiuely in all ages and places which is most properly and really the Catholicke vniuersall Church So expressely o Princip doctr pag. 99. 101. edit Ascens an 1532. Waldensis This is the Catholicke Apostolicke Church of Christ meant in the Creed the mother of beleeuers whose faith cannot faile not any speciall Church Not the African as Donatus said not the particular Romane Church but the vniuersall Church not assembled in a generall Councell which we know hath sometime erred but the Catholicke Church of Christ dispersed through the whole world since the Baptisme of Christ by the Apostles and their successors to these times is it which containes the true faith and holds the certain truth in the midst of all errors Secondly for any part of this Catholicke Church in this or that time or contrey as the particular Churches of Greece Rome Corinth or any assembly of Bishops congregated in a Councell either generall or particular Thirdly for the Papacy or Romish Church peculiarly containing that faction which imbraces the Romish religion and liues vnder the Popes subiection In which sense my aduersary and all Papists alway vse the name of the Church p Est coetus hominum eiusdem Christianae fidei professione corundem Sacramentorum communione colligatus sub reginunt legitimorum Pastorum ac precipuè vnius Christi in terris Vicarij Romani Pontificis excluduntur schismatici qui habent fidem in sacramenta sed non subsunt legitimo Pastori Bell. de eccl milit c. 2. Est visibilis hominum câ—etus sub Christo apite â—â—us in terris Vicario â—astore ac summo Pontifice agens Simanch Cath. instit tâ—t 24. n. 1. defining it by this Romish faith with subiection to the Pope and excluding from it all that refuse the Papacy The which distinction being thus laied I propound my answer and that we say touching the point in the fourth proposition First No man or company of men beleeuing and expounding the Scripture contrary to that which the vniuersall Church in the first sence hath alway beleeued and expounded can be assured they haue the assistance of Gods Spirit but the contrary they may assure themselues they are led by the spirit of error The reason is for no truth can be reuealed to any but that which is in this Church for if it be not in it so that the Church neuer knew or beleeued it then it cannot be the truth For q 1. Tim. 3.15 the Church is the pillar and ground of truth and so a priuate man holding it must needs hold an error Secondly A priuate man and priuate companies of men may be and many times are so assisted by the holy Ghost that they may beleeue and expound the Scripture truly against a particular Church or Councell of Bishops either generall or particular The reason is for God hath left his truth with his Church therein to remaine for euer but not infallibly euery parcell of his truth with euery part or assembly of the Church But his prouidence and promises to his Church are sufficiently vpholden if he so support the true faith that it alway remaine in some of the Church Therefore a particular Church or councell of Bishops may at some time and in some points erre and then it cannot be denied but others may see the truth against them this proposition our aduersaries dare not denie nor do not Thirdly a priuate man and priuate companies of men beleeuing and expounding the Scripture onely against the Papacie may be infallibly assured they are assisted by the holy Ghost The reason is because this Papacie is no part of Gods truth but the late inuentions of men added vnto it Fourthly Priuate men and priuate companies of men beleeuing and expounding contrarie to the Papacie resist not the true Church of Christ nor any part of it The reason is for the Papacie being nothing else but a disease or excrement breeding in the Church must not be expounded to be the Church it selfe as a wenne or leprosie growing on the bodie is not the bodie it selfe and he that cuts off the wen or purges away the leprosie cannot be said to resist or wrong the bodie 6 These foure propositions thus laid downe it is manifest my aduersarie doth but cauill in this place For if his conclusion intended no more but that priuate men must not be thought to know the truth and the true Catholick Church to be in error no man would speake against him But the sence of his conclusion is against the three last of my propositions That no man can be thought inspired of God or to haue the truth when he expounds Scripture as Luther and his did contrary to the church of Rome in which sence onely I dispute against him and in no other Not affirming that priuate men may see the truth and the Catholicke vniuersall Church not see it but onely that priuate men beleeuing contrary to that which my aduersarie meanes by the Catholicke vniuersall Church may haue the truth on their side and be infallibly sure therof without holding any thing contrary to the vnamine interpretation of the precedent or liuing Pastors of the sound part of the Catholicke Church CHAP. XXXIII 1. How a priuate man is assured he vnderstands and beleeues aright touching the last and highest resolution of faith 2. Luthers reiecting the Fathers 3. Occhams opinion that no man is tied to the Pope or his Councels 4. The Beraeans examined the doctrine that they were taught 5. The faith of the beleeuer rests vpon diuine infused light 6. M. Luther sought reformation with all humilitie 7. Scripture is the
is one thing it selfe that is beleeued the fore to be grounded on some superior authoritie Can loc l. ◠§. 8. D Weston layes the resolution of faith thus Our faith of any mystery is resolued into a former act wherby the Scripture containing this mystery is beleeued to be the word of God and this also is resolued into a former act as the cause thereof that the Church cannot erre Which we beleeue for the signes and notes which shew it to be a true Church Thus resoluing all diuine faith into humane motiues de Tripl offic c. 3. pag. 143. aduersaries themselues as I haue often shewed after all authoritie of Fathers Church Councels Pope and all do rest and resolue their faith vpon the second proposition of this Syllogisme I am taught this by Scripture our aduersaries denie not but Fathers Councels Popes may erre or if they cannot yet the authoritie of these things is not the reason of our faith for then faith should be humane but the inward authoritie of the Scripture and the Spirit of God If it be demanded how the Protestants can giue infallible assurance to others that they vnderstand the Scripture aright I answer that the same question is to be made to the Papists and both they and we must answer that vnlesse God illuminate their hearts we can giue no assurance neither they by the Church nor we by the Scripture but such as haue this illumination do see manifestly the truth of the things they haue beleeued But Luther he sayes held against the vniuersall Catholicke Church I answer and let all Papists well consider of it that they must proue this which I call the Papacie to be the vniuersall Catholicke Church afore they can say Luther was deceiued That they cannot proue but by the Scripture in which triall Luther shall retire to the Scripture no faster then themselues and then they may be deceiued as well as Luther in as much vnlesse they will runne in a round as all their other authoritie proofes and motiues must be tried by the Scriptures OVER WHICH GOD HATH SET NO VISIBLE IVDGE IN THIS WORLD THAT CAN INFALLIBLY CONVINCE AND PERSWADE ALL MEN. I wil make this plaine by laying downe the maner how Luther and how a Papist assures himselfe Luther and the Protestants for their part beleeue for example that a man is iustified by faith onely because the Scripture in plaine places excluding workes and proposing Gods free grace in Christ and maintaining the sole merits of Christ applied by faith debarres euery thing from iustifying that is in our selues and so teaches expresly that we are iustified onely by faith in Christ The Papists hold the contrary alledging the Church and the Pope whose doctrine they say it is that we are iustified by our workes But being demanded how we know infallibly that the Church or the Pope hath not erred in holding so they grant they may erre and answer that yet they are known not to erre in this point by the Scriptures which Scripture and the true sence thereof is knowne and beleeued for it selfe Here they are fallen into the same issue that the Protestants are I am taught this by the Scripture Now if they reply that we are infallibly assured the Scripture is meant as we say because the Church expounds it so who sees not that they make a circle thus to beleeue the Church first because of the Scripture and then againe to beleeue the Scripture because of the Church Their maine resolution therfore is the euidence and authoritie of the Scripture perswading them both that the doctrine is true and that the Church which teaches it is the true Church And so they lie open to the same cauils that are made against the Protestāts Luther in vnderstanding the Scripture may be deceiued so may they It is Luthers own cause so is this the Papists Luthers iudgment is to be suspected when he preferred himself before the iudgement of the Church The same say we to them They preferre their iudgement before the Church and all the Fathers in as much as we can shew the Church and Fathers to be against them and themselues professe that the Popes authoritie is aboue both Church and Fathers 2 Indeed if M. Luther had had a thousand Austins and Cyprians and other Fathers of the Church with one consent and plainly against him he had bin so much the more to be suspected for this is one maine thing that makes vs abhorre the present Roman Church because it prefers it selfe and the Popes determination before all the Doctors in the world but he neuer thought so nor said so His words are these in c Tom. 2. Wittemb pag 344. a booke that he writ against King Henry the 8. Lastly he produces the sayings of the Fathers for the establishing of the sacrifice of the Masse and sees my foolishnes who alone will be wiser then all other This is is it I say that by this my opinion is confirmed For this I said that these * His vnciuill speeches to the King himselfe afterward retracted Sleid. They are but a weak argumēt to discredit his reformation Lucifer Caralitanus his books against the Emperor Constantius are as bitter and violent If Luther offended against K. Harry the Iesuites and their supplies repay it to K. Iames and long since haue returned it with the interest to good Q. Elizabeth Thomisticall asses haue nothing to produce but a multitude of men and antique vse and then to him that brings the Scriptures to say Thou art the foolishest of all men that liue Art thou onely wise and then it must needs be so But to me who am the foolishest of all men it is sufficient that the most wise Henry can bring no Scripture against me nor answer that which is brought against him besides he is constrained to grant his Fathers haue often erred and his antique vse makes no article of faith in which it is lawfull but for the multitude of that Church to trust whereof he himselfe with his pardons is defender But against the saying of Fathers men Angels and diuels I oppose not ancient custome nor a multitude of men o This is that which the Fathers themselues aduise vnto when heresies haue long continued preuailed in the Church to flie to the Scriptures because the writings of the Fathers after the long continuance of heresie are in danger of corruption See Chrysost op imperf hom 49. sub init §. Tūo cum videritis abominationē Vincen. Lyrin cōmonit c. 39. but the word the Gospel of one eternal maiestie which themselues are constrained to allow wherein the Masse is euidently taught to be the signe and testament of God wherein he promises and by a signe certifies to vs his grace For this worke and word of God is not in our power here I set my foote here I sit here I abide here I glorie here I triumph here I insult ouer Papists Thomists Sophisters and
Gospell where the Pope is ignorant or erres it is manifest whose iudgement is to be preferred and in this case such a learned man if he were present at a generall Councell should oppose himselfe against it if he perceiued the maior part through malice or ignorance to go against the Gospell Occham k Occh. Dial. p 180. affirmes that THE POPE AND CARDINALS ARE NOT THE RVLE OF OVR FAITH because though a Catholicke Pope and Catholicke Cardinals ought to be the teachers of faith so that the faithfull should firmely beleeue whatsoeuer they teach and define according to the rule of faith yet if they presume to teach or dâ—fine any thing contrary to the rule of faith which the holy Scripture teaches then Catholickes are not to follow but reproue them These men affirme all things that I say First that the Scripture is the rule of faith Secondly that the Pope with his Councels and Cardinals may erre Thirdly that they may erre in faith and teach erroniously Fourthly that their teaching may be examined Fifthly that euen by priuate men Sixthly the Scripture being the rule whereby Seuenthly vpon which examination their teaching may be refused This is the limitation that I mentioned Let the Repliar and all of his minde open their eyes and confesse we hold nothing but that which the learnedst in his owne Church allow and teach His second exception How shall they relieue themselues who cannot reade nor vnderstand the Scripture l §. 7. pag. 30. I answered in the WAY whereto my aduersary hauing nothing to reply according to his Methode onely repeates his cauill againe but it doth him no good For such as cannot reade yet may heare them read or preached and propounded by others it being sufficient that they haue the knowledge of the Scriptures any way which are so plaine and easie in all things belonging to the substance of faith that as I haue shewed m Gregory the B. of Rome speaking of an vnlearned man saies Nequaquam literas nouerat sed Scripturae sacrae sibi met codices emerat religioso quosque in hospitalitatem suscipiens hos coraÌ„ se studiose legere faciebat Factum est vt iuxta modum suum plene sacram Scripturum disceret cum siâ—ut dixi literas funditus ignoraret Dial. l. 4. c. 14. ibi Graec. Zachar. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the simplest that are hauing the assistance of Gods Spirit to enlighten them which assistance is not tyed to the presense of the Church as my aduersary cauilles may vnderstand them And to omit the words of the Scripture it selfe which the Repliar and his complices despise and reuile let him say directly whether the Ancient Church taught not thus S. Austine n Epist 3. The Scripture like a familiar friend speakes those plaine things which it containes to the heart of learned and vnlearned Chrysostome o Hom. 1 in Matth. The Scriptures are easie to vnderstand and exposed to the capacity of euery seruant Plowman widow boy and him that is most vnwise Cyrill Alexand p Contr. Iulian. pag. 160. The Scripture that it might be knowne to all men as well small as great are profitably commended to vs in a familiar speech so that they exceede the capacity of no man Isidore Pelusiota q l 2. ep 5. Forasmuch as God gaue lawes to weake men and such as need plaine words therefore he tempered his heauenly doctrine * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with rude words fit for the simple That euery woman and child and the vnlearnedst among mortall men by THE VERY HEARING IT SELFE might get some good r Sixt. Senens Biblioth l 6. annot 152. §. quod autem Grego Valent. 22. pag. 118. §. iam quae Diuers of the learnedst of our aduersaries grant this to be true in that part of the Scripture which containes the principles of faith and the things that all men generally are bound to beleeue which is sufficient to vphold that I say for I will easily allow great obscurity to be in much of the rest according to that which Å¿ Act. 8.31 2. Pet. 3.16 the Scripture and t Basil de fid p. 394. Iren. l. 2. c. 47. August ep 3. the Fathers oftentimes obserue but the rule of faith contained in euident places will preserue the vnlearned from erring therein perniciously A.D. By which explication is answered that which M. White saith is vnanswerable Pag. 220. White p 76. to wit If we must not accept euery doctrine taught by Pastours then there must be another rule by which we must be directed in hearing For it is not necessary to admit another rule distinct from the doctrine of Pastours but it sufficeth that we can distinguish in this rule two distinct manners of teaching the one priuate and without authoritie which we are not bound to accept the other publike and with authority which we may not reiect in any point 7 To the text of Mathew 23.2 The Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses chaire c. I answered u The WAY pag. 75. that our Sauiour bindes vs not to heare the Pastours of the Church further then they teach according to the truth This exposition I confirmed by the testimonies of * Fer. in Matth. l. 3 c. 23. Can. Loc. l. 5. c. 4 Iansen concord c. 120. Em. Sa. notat Mat. 23. 4. Papists to whom here I adde a fift Pope Adrian x Hadria quodl 6. art 2. p. 38. we are tyed to obey them in such things as they teach according to Moses chaire Hence I said it followes vnanswerably that there is another rule whereby I may be directed in hearing For else how should a man be able to distinguish those points wherein he must follow his teachers from those wherein he must not And indeed this reason is vnanswerable For if our Sauiour hath bound me to heare them that sit in Moses chaire no further then they teach true doctrine according to the chaire it must necessarily be said that there is some rule distinct from their teaching whereby I may infallibly discerne if they teach falsely against the chaire But the Reply sayes this needs not it being sufficient that we can distinguish two manners of teaching the one Priuate and without authority which we are not bound to accept the other publicke and with authoritie which we may not reiect in any point But for the making of this distinction it needes that there be a rule for though it be sufficient thus to distinguish that is to say by discerning and iudging betweene that which is taught by publicke and that which is taught by priuate authoritie a man may sufficiently guide himselfe in following his Pastors yet how shall I distinguish this which way shall I know the publicke teaching from the priuate without A RVLE Say plainely what is the RVLE to discerne that doctrine which is taught without authority from that which is taught with authoritie and if there be
Papists in the world euer proue it yet without it thâ—â—rott aboue ground a 2. Sa. 13. as Amnon would die if he lay not with his sister Thamar A. D. That we may therefore be incouraged to seeke in such sort Pag. 235. as we may finde that finding we may duely follow the teaching of the true Church in this Chapter I inquire in generall whether the Church whose teaching we ought to follow in all matters of faith be alwaies visible that is such as may be seene or by seeking found or sometimes inuisible that is such as cannot be seene nor by seeking found Before I proceede to relate my aduersaries answer I must cleare the state of the question M. Wootton first would make the question to be whether the Church spoken of in the Creed be visible or invisible M. White saies that this is not the question in this place but saith he the question of the Church militant which containeth as part of it euen euill men and hypocrites The truth is that to speake precisely I make not the question either of these waies For although it be true that the same Church which I speake of be the Church or part of the Church spoken of in the Creed although also it be the Church militant or part of the Church militant containing as part of it all professours good and bad in regard I hold as all good Christians should that there is but one Church yet that I may cut off occasions of cauill I will not now dispute what is meant by the word Church as it is in the Creed or whether the Church militant be that Church which I say is visible I onely aske whether the Church of which I spake in the two precedent Chapters whose doctrine is there proued by diuers places of Scriptures to be in all ages the Rule and meanes ordained by God to instruct all men in all matters of faith whether I say this Church be in all ages visible or sometimes inuisible Now taking the Church in this sense yet my aduersary M. White White p. 86. Pag. 9. peruerteth the state of my question for he will needes haue me meane by a visible Church a company alwayes so illustrious as it not onely may be but actually is knowne to all men liuing at all times But so I did not here make my question for I know well enough that the Church hath not alwaies especially in time of persecutions such outward worldly prosperous estate I know also that sometimes the Church is obscured as S. Augustine saith with multitude of scandals and therefore it is not alwaies alike famous and illustrious especially so as to shine actually through the whole world My question therefore onely is whether the true Church WHOSE DOCTRINE IS THE RVLE and meanes ordained by God to instruct men of all ages in faith be sometimes quite inuisible in such sort that no member thereof can be seene nor assigned or that it is alwaies visible that is to say such as containeth in it alwaies euen in the times of greatest obscurity at least some eminent professors who either are actually knowne or may in particular be assigned to all such as 〈◊〉 to know theÌ„ that they may learne of them the true doctrine of faith as grace sufficient being presupposed all men in potentia proxima vel remota may and ought to learne 2 For the better vnderstanding of that which insues from this place forward to the ende touching the visiblenesse of the Church the Reader must note that my aduersary hauing in his Treatise concluded that not the Scripture but the teaching of the Church is the rule of faith now proceeded to enquire which this Church is and where it is to be found And first he answered categorically that it is visible and may be found then afterward he shewed where and how and by what markes it may be found In the 17. § he began to intreate of the visiblenesse of the Church affirming that it must needes alwaies be from Christs time to the ende of the world and being it must needes be alwaies visible vrging such reasons as he had to proue it and among the rest this was his last a §. 22. in the WAIE The onely reason and ground by which heretickes hold the Church to be inuisible is because they imagine the Church to consist onely of the elect or at least of the good but this is a false ground for it is euident that the Church militant consisteth of good and bad c. Whereto b Ibi. I answered that this was not our reason nor indeed could be for that in this question we speake not of the vniuersall Church comprehending none but the elect of all times and ages but of the Church for the time being wherin the true faith is remaining which Church containes hypocrites also and euill men as well as good Wherein I spake effectually for his owne words are that the question is of the militant Church And when our doctrine is that the militant Church consists of wicked reprobates as well as elect how can we make it a ground to proue it inuisible sometime because it consists onely of the elect Neuerthelesse in this place you see he complaines of my peruerting the state of the question and denies that he meant it as I tooke it Let vs therefore see what he requires and if his meaning be mistaken good reason he explaine himselfe and the difference betweene vs be agreed vpon 3 First he saies that he enquires in generall not whether the Church mentioned in the Creed or whether the militant Church be visible but whether that Church whose teaching we ought to follow be alwaies visible that is such as may be seene or by seeking found And I also said * In what sense the militant Church is by the Protestant Diuines said to be sometime inuisible the question is onely of the outward state of the Church whether it be alway visible to the world or not that in euery age those congregations may euidently be discerned and pointed too which are the true Church Not affirming the true outward militant Church at any time hitherto to haue bin inuisible for the visible Churches of Greece Ethiope Armenia and Rome with the nations contained therein haue in them the true Church of God wherein men may be saued but onely intending that there is not alway in this Church a visible company and state of people deuided from the rest that professe the true faith and exercize Church gouernement in all things free from the corruptions and abuses of such as haue defiled the Church And thus I neuer denied the Church of Rome to be the visible Church of God wherein our Auncestors possessed the true faith and were saued but I constantly deny the PAPACY to be it or the ARTICLES wherein we refuse the Church of Rome to be the faith thereof and affirme the same to be a Leprosie breeding in the
it is impudencie to denie his conclusion so apparently proued on the other side we dare not grant it for feare of the people Here is neuer a true word First his conclusion is not proued For the arguments which he propounded to demonstrate it he hath not followed nor vpholden but leauing them in the field behind him he runs away without so much as looking behind him and in all his Reply rescues not one of them Secondly his conclusion is iustly denied and without impudencie for it is no impudencie to denie that which cannot be proued but it is impudencie to require men to beleeue that which hath no proofe He speakes of his proofes as he doth of his Church all is eminent illustrous apparent plaine visible to all when yet no man sees them Thirdly the reason why we grant not the Church to be in his sence visible is not for feare of the people nor because we cannot giue the Professors of our faith in euery age but because it is the truth which with all his boasting he cannot remoue for albeit the Church neuer failes but abides perpetually visible in some degree to the end yet is there not alway therein a visible companie by profession and gouernment distinct from the rest that is free from the generall corruption that preuailes in the Church of which company onely the question is He maintaining that the Church cannot erre nor be subiect to any such corruption but hath alway in it eminent professors and speciall congregations that are neuer infected with any part of the corruption nor need reformation which persons and congregations appeare as visibly and distinctly to all men as worldly kingdomes are distinctly seene and knowne and we holding the Church to be perpetuall onely because there are alway in the world which hold the true worship of God and to be visible in regard it may at all times be seene though heresie may so preuaile and persecution so arise that a visible companie shall not appeare which is not in some measure touched with the common errors or needs not repentance and reformation All which is so true that I challenge the Replier and prouoke the zealousest of my aduersaries to say ingenuously if the learned Papists alledged Digress 17. say not in effect as much themselues 2 Our answer therefore is direct and plaine both to the conclusion and the reasons and so direct that the Iesuite hath no stomack to reply but exceeding grosly falsly expounds affixes a meaning to vs that we neuer meant First he says we distinguish two seuerall Churches whereof we call the one the Catholicke Church mentioned in the Creed containing onely the elect the other the Militant Church containing as part of the Catholick the professors of the true faith whether good or bad beleeuers or hypocrites elect or reprobate Next he sayes the reason why we thus distinguish two seuerall Churches is that when we are hunted out of the one we may runne into the other This he expounds something more plainly That which as I guesse for he hath no certaintie of what he sayes driues them to admit such a Church militant distinguisht from the Catholicke is least if none should be said to pertaine to the Church but onely the elect it would follow that men might despaire of attaining true faith which is not had but by the teaching of the Church for as much as they could neuer know who are elected Thirdly he says this Militant Church which other Protestants commonly call the visible Church M. White will needs defend to be sometimes inuisible That these things may the better be vnderstood and answered note FIRST that by the word Church taken in his full latitude The Church we meane the whole companie of all those whom God calls to the knowledge and profession of his truth and so to saluation Of which calling and separation from the rest of the world liuing in Atheisme and idolatry without the knowledge or acceptation of those supernatural verities that leade to God it hath the denomination and is called the Church as if you should say a companie called or gathered forth of the rest of the world But one church Note SECONDLY that the Church absolutely and simply considered in this latitude is but One as the state and company of the kingdome of Great Brittain is but one in as much as all and euery one called to this grace of how different state qualities or condition soeuer belong one way or other to this companie for the faith being but one and the maner of calling by reuealing the same but one the companies that receiue and professe it how many soeuer respectiuely yet absolutely and abstracting from particular conditions of times and persons can be but one Note THIRDLY that in the Church being absolutely but one there are sundry differences and respects that is to say the persons called to the faith of Christ are of diuers sorts as the kingdome of Great Brittain being but one yet is diuers waies considered For some part of the Church being reduced from the state of this mortall life reignes with God in heauen and is glorified with that glorie whereto it was called when it was here on earth The triumphant Church This we call the Triumphant Church because as triumphers they enioy the reward due to conquerers The other part of the Church is that which successiuely in all ages liues here in this world professing that it desires to follow the Triumphant The militant Church and enioy eternall life this we call the Church Militant because it lies as it were in the campe fighting against the world the diuell and the flesh vnder the banner of Christ waiting for the victorie But among these againe there are two sorts of people the first all such as are called effectually The Church of the elect these are the elect onely whom God not onely calls but inspires also effectually to obey his calling and to liue holy and vnblameable in such sort that they shal infallibly be saued in the life to come The inuisible Church This company we call the inuisible Church because God onely sees who are his we can see the men and by their fruits hope they are Gods elect but to speake precisely no mortall eie can discerne them to be Gods elect but God alone by reason hypocrites and the reprobate do many times resemble them in shew and profession The second sort of the Militant Church are hypocrites and vnsound members that are not called effectually but disobey the truth whereof they make profession such are heretickes schismatickes and all the wicked that will not obey the truth whom we call the false and malignant church The malignant Church Note FOVRTHLY that howsoeuer the elect liuing here vpon earth and effectually called be inuisible in the sence deliuered yet when we say the Church militant is sometimes inuisible we meane it of the Church Militant that liues in
elect be pag. 240. the Church thus considered is altogether inuisible but the question is not touching this Church and therfore against his conclusion I haue also affirmed thirdly that the Church consisting of professors sometime is inuisible that is to say the whole number of true beleeuers and professors liuing in the world which we call the Church Militant sometime loose the outward conspicuousnes of Apostolicke doctrine and gouernment free from abuses which the Papists say they alway hold Touching this assertion he notes two things 7 First the reason why we maintaine it That when he forsooth shall afterwards vrge vs to assigne a continuall professing Protestant company as he can shew a continuall company of Professors of the Roman faith we may by this starting hole escape without answer This is but winde and ostentation he can shew no continuall company successiuely or visibly professing the Roman faith with all the articles thereof as now it is holden he may set downe a catalogue of Bishops Doctors Councels and Professors that in all ages haue bene in the world but that they beleeued as himselfe and the Iesuites and his Romish Church now do otherwise then in the substantiall articles of faith wherein we agree with them or that there were none among them that misliking the corruptions of the Papacy as they grew held in the substance of the Protestants religion he can neuer shew as will appeare The true cause why we maintaine the Church to be sometime inuisible is this that I shall lay downe * The manner how the question touching the visibility of the Church first began and in what sense For when Luther and the first Reformers some hundred yeares agoe withdrew themselues from the subiection of the Pope and put away these innumerable errors out of their Churches which our Aduersaries now maintaine against vs as the doctrine of image worship Inuocation of Saints Purgatory the Masse Transubstantiation and the rest wherein our Aduersaries and we dissent altering nothing of that which belongs to the substance of true faith or which the Church of Rome had receiued from the Apostles and Primitiue Church but onely contrary to the customes of some ages before professing the same without the mixture of the aforesaid errors the Pope with his crew cried out they were Heretickes persecuting them with fire and sword and charging them to haue forsaken the Church of Christ wherein they should be saued and among other arguments his Champions required them to shew the succession of their doctrine and Pastors boasting that vnlesse they could do it and shew their Church to haue visibly bene in all ages they would conclude they had forsaken the Church and were the first authors of the Protestant Religion The Reformers to this answered that THE CHVRCH OF ROME IT SELFE was their visible Church wherein they were bred and whence they proceeded but therein was two kinds of Articles of Religion The one which was Apostolicke and had bene from the beginning the other that which at seuerall times by the faction and conueiance of Hereticks had bene brought in and mingled with the truth this latter they had renounced but not the former making it more then manifest that in the substance of the truth and rule of faith taught by the Apostles and certainely holden by the ancient Church they had altered nothing but onely separated themselues from intollerable corruptions and from the Popes tyranny that maintained and vrged them who by his tyranny and peruerting all things had declared himselfe to be Antichrist sitting in the Church of God And when the Papists still cried SHEW VS A VISIBLE CHVRCH IN ALL THE WORLD PROFSSING IN ALL THINGS AS YOV DO they replied it was not necessary so to do THE CHVRCH OF ROME IT SELFE was the visible Church professing as they did in all things substantiall But if they required such a Church as had put away those errors and held the substance without corruptions and heresies mingled among the Professors then such a Church was sometime inuisible that is to say it may sometime fall out that in all the world no part of the Church shall be outwardly seene to hold the succession of all the true faith without corruption and the purest Professors may be oppressed that their memory shall be taken away and that which is the worst part of the Church shall be strongest and generally reputed most Catholicke This is the true and originall reason of this question whereby it is easie to see that we neuer imagined the Church to be simply inuisible at any time but this inuisibility hath bene affirmed onely of the outward state thereof at some times when reformation hath not bene so pure as now it is No otherwise then I would say the body was inuisible when a Leprosie had ouergrowne it or the kingdome of France were inuisible when tyranny and new customes should mingle themselues therewith and the ancient lawes be expounded by a faction of Rebels 8 By this his second exception that to defend a paradoxe I haue peruerted the state of the question is answered For it is cleare hereby that the question is of the militant Church and so D. Stapleton m Relect. p. 2. sayes expresly In this controuersie the appellation of the Church principally belongs to the militant company And the two things mentioned touching it that it may consist of a small number and that it professes sometime in secret being taken in the sense deliuered are so farre from being blind shifts that they cannot be disproued by bragging and if there be any mettall or truth in my Aduersary here I spur him and let him answer freely That which I noted is the cleare confession of many n In THE WAY Digr 17. n. 3. learned Papists themselues Alexand. Durand Turrecremata Parnormitan Pererius Ouandus Acosta the Rhemists Dom Scoto Gregory Valence But these being principall men in the Church of Rome must not be said to teach blind shifts but the truth that therefore which I noted is the truth If it be the truth that the Church militant in respect of the best part thereof may sometime consist of a small number and may secretly that the world cannot see it professe the faith how can the truth bleare the Readers eye or bewitch his vnderstanding when that which befals the Church at one time may befall it againe though not at any yet at some time and whether the yeares were more or lesse wherein we say it was obscured yet they were the yeares of the persecution of Antichrist and in Antichrists time o Ioh. Parisiens tract de Antich p. 45. edit Venet apud Laz. Soarol an 1516. When the Church is turned into Armageddon the mount of theeues no Papist will deny but it may be inuisible in the sense that we hold as I shewed in the 17. Digression and himselfe confesses in that which immediatly followes CHAP. XXXIX 1 The Papists are inforced to yeeld the same that we
for the maior is his owne doctrine and the doctrine of all the Diuines on his side and then he is debarred from denying the Church to be inuisible till he haue preserued the Pope from being Antichrist which he can neuer do and if he fall out to be Antichrist then I hope he will confesse the sayings of Saint Augustine concerning the Church against the Donatists proue no perpetuall and continuall visibility of the state thereof Pag. 243. Stapleton in relect contr 4. q. 3. art 1. Greg. de Val. tom 3. dis 1. q. 1 A. D. Note Secondly that although it be true which my aduersaries impertinently obiect that the Church is not actually seene at all times by all men yet it is visible that is to say such as at least in potentia remota may be seene or knowne by all if the impediments be not on our parts who should see it Although also it be not alike visible and perspicuous as our Diuines well declare at all times yet it is alwaies so visible and perspicuous that with prudent and diligent inquirie it may be found and discerned in regard euen in times of greatest obscurities there were alwaies some eminent and knowne members of it by reason of which euen men of the world may discerne and distinguish it from other men which were not of the true Church Moreouer although it haue not alwaies an outward illustrious and worldly estate especially in times and places where persecution rageth nor cannot alwaies practise publickly the rites and ceremonies of diuine worship but is forced sometimes to do this in priuate as Christians did in the first ten persecutions vnder the heathen Emperors and as Catholickes in England are forced to do now adaies yet the Church neuer did doth or shall want an inward estate subordination and gouernment of Pastors this being a thing appointed by God himselfe Acts the 20. v. 28. Ehpes 4. v. 12. to be alwaies in the Church nor euer did doth or shall want altogether the practise of rites pertaining to Sacraments and other duties necessary pertaining to diuine worship and profession of the Christian faith neither was or shal this inward estate or practise of the Church vniuersally in any age be so secret but that some notice at least in generall was and may be had of it euen by infidels and enemies in so much that for the time to come S. Augustine affirmeth Aug. l. 20. De ciuit c. 8. that euen in Antichrists time the Church shall be conspicuous in some sort and for times past there are recordes at this day extant in Histories written either by friends enemies or both by which it is to vs and will be to posterity apparant enough that there were such a company of Christian professors vsing such practise in all ages And although the names of all professors nor all particular points pertaining to to their profession be not set downe yet diuers both men and matters are so set downe in stories as it is no great difficulty to assigne a catalogue of some true Christian professors continually in all ages The which records of Histories was doubtlesse first made and afterward preserued by diuine prouidence as a necessary meanes to certifie vs of the fulfilling of the diuine Prophesies and promises made in Scripture about the continuance of the Church For if it be true which M. White saies to wit White pag. 338. that things past cannot be shewed by no other meanes then by histories if we had not Histories to shew and assure vs that Christians had bene in all ages we could not know whether the diuine Prophesies and promises made in Scripture about the continuance of the Church had bene fulfilled or no and so we could not take that solide comfort and confirmation of our faith and hope by these Prophesies and promises for which they were ordained 3 He affirmes fiue things FIRST that howsoeuer the Church be not actually seene at all times by all men yet it is such as may be seene and knowne by all if the impediment be not on their part that should see it this is true But it is not true that his aduersaries obiect this to him impertinently For a The WAIE §. 17. n. 3. I obiected it to let him see how and in what sense we hold the inuisibility of the Church not simply but respectiuely in regard of those that see not the corruptions hiding and defacing it Now I neuer knew before that it was impertinent to expound the sense of the question in controuersie NEXT he grants it is not alike visible and perspicuous at all times as his Diuines well declare The which possible he would neuer haue bin known of if b Digr 17. I had not put him in minde But being graunted c Bel. de eccl l. 3. c. 13. the Cardinall and all that speake as he doth must bate an ace of his assertion God hath at all times a Church consisting not of a few people but a great multitude as conspicuous as an earthly kingdome For if it be not alway alike perspicuous but sometime d Staplet Grego Valent. vbi sup as Stapleton and Gregory declare in the places quoted if they had bene quoted truely it may be so tossed with errors and scismes and persecutions that to such as are vnskilfull and do not discreetely weigh things and times it shall be very hard to be discerned then it falles a great deale short of a great multitude as conspicuous as any earthly kingdome THIRDLY he saies that although it be not alike visible at all times yet it is alwaie so visible that with prudent and diligent inquirie it may be discerned Which we deny not but the reason hereof is not in regard there are alway some eminent members of it wholy free from all the corruption preuailing because those eminent members the Iesuite vnderstands to be the Pope and some part at least of his hierarchy the visibilitie of the Church e Simanch institut Cathol tit 24. n. 1. Azor. instit tom 2 l. 5. c. 21. quinto being defined by the perpetuall subiection thereof to a visible Pope but because euen then when it is most inuisible and kept downe with persecution and heresie the substance and rule of faith is preserued and such as are enlightned by the Spirit of God by diligent inquirie may perceiue the soundest part of the Church to be not in the multitude as the world thinketh which hath innouated the ancient faith but among those few meane oppressed ones that this glorious and conspicuous multitude condemnes and persecutes not the eminency of Sate but the eminency of truth and doctrine being the signe wherby to know them FOVRTHLY he confesses the Church cannot alway practise publikely the rites of Gods worship but is forced sometimes to do it in priuate this is also true for albeit the publicke worship shall neuer faile to be openly exercised yet sometime this open exercise
Prophecies haue bene fulfilled And haue the Prophecies of Scripture touching the amplitude glory and continuance of the true faith bene accomplished in the Roman profession onely that I meane which we haue reiected whose amplitude to this day neuer extended it selfe beyong these neighbour parts of the West k See Magin geograph 166. the most spacious Churches of Greece Armenia Aethiopia diuers other nations neuer since the Apostasie acknowledging the same but abhorring it as much euer any Protestant did whose continuance in some articles is not yet a 100 yeares whose religion by peece-meale crept in successiuely now one peece now another the Christian world complaining of it Is not this the most desperate impudency that euer was to affirme Purgatory Image-worship the sacrifice of the Masse halfe Communion Latin Seruice and the Lateran and Trent doctrine touching the Popes primacy Councels Transubstantiation the single life of votaries Freewill Merits Iustification good workes the Scriptures wherein the best part of the Roman profession stands to haue continued in all ages in that glory splendour and amplitude that is mentioned in the Prophecies when not onely the ancient Church knew them not but the Diuines themselues in the Church of Rome within these 400. yeares haue had no vnitie or certaine assurance of them Away ye * Iosh 9. Gibeonites with your conterfeit antiquity be packing with your old shoes and mouldy bread and musty bottels out of the Lords campe 8 And haue so may learned Protestants turned Atheists and doubted and cast off religion because they haue not seene the amplitude and glory and continuance mentioned in our Church It seemes this conceite is throughly grafted in our Romane Catholickes hearken therfore and refraine a while the Protestants haue seene the continuance of true religion in all ages in the Churches of Greece and Rome its selfe and other Churches and albeit the amplitude and glory thereof haue bene oppressed by the tyranny or Antichrist and his damnable heresies continually multiplying themselues in the Church of Rome yet this experience and the consideration of this oppression which religion sustained in the ages past at the hands of those Roman professors in whom onely the Reply saies the Prophecies of the Scripture haue bene fulfilled is so farre from making Protestants doubt of truth of Christian faith that nothing confirmes them in it more by reason the Prophecies of Scripture which promise such amplitude glory and continuance to the true Church foretell a-againe the decay of the outward state thereof vnder Antichrist for certaine seasons and the glory which that false Church of his shall rise to through the delusions of Satan By which oppression we know it to be the true Church of Christ and by the continuance of the true faith therein men then when it was most oppressed we know it to be the same that the Prophecies mentioned in the Scripture point to and against which the gates of hell shall neuer preuaile and by this very glory amplitude splendor and pompe that the Replyar boastes is to be seene in his Romane profession alone we know assuredly it is the Church of Antichrist the seate of the Beast that pallace of the whore of Babylon l Apo. 13.4.8.12 18.3.9 Telesphorus Vbertin Friars Ioachim Abbas in their writings of Antichrist note many things very remarkeable touching the seducing of the world by apostaticall Popes Clergy men whom they affirme to haue bene the instruments of Antichrist Telesphorus also settes these things downe in pictures It is certainely reported that when the Abby of S. Edm. Bury in Suffolke was standing before the ouerthrow thereof there was of ancient time in a certaine glas-window of the Abby the story of Antichrist pictured like the Pope attended by Monkes Friars Priests and Cardinals stopping their cares against the Preaching of Enoch and Elias and persecuting thâ—m that harkened to their preaching and diuers other things resembling Antichrist and his crew in the habite of the Pope and his Clergy I haue seene the transsumpt of this picture in a Table drawne by the thing it selfe at Sir Iohn Croftes his house at Saxham nere to Bury whom the kings and merchants and multitudes of the earth must follow This is the effect that the consideration of the Prophecies workes in vs. And if the apostasie or relapse of some particular persons falling into despaire atheisme or heresie be receaued as a sufficient argument against vs what Church shall be free or how shall the Church of God be iustified and what will the Papists answer for their owne religion wherein so many haue miscarried The true Church of Christ hath in it hypocrites and reprobates who stumbling sometime at the doctrine sometime at the state in the day of temptation fall away Thus many of Christs owne Disciples went backe m Ioh. 6.66 and walked no more with him Thus n 2. Tim. 4.10 Demas forsooke Paule and S. Iohn o 1. Ioh 2.19 complaines of diuers that in his time went backe from the true Church Tertullian p Baro. an 201. n 13. seduced by a woman or q Pamel vit Tertul. an 211. Baro. an 201. n. 9. vexed with discontent fell into Montanisme r Prateol Elench haeret v Nouatiani Nouatus into such horrible errors that he was called the prince of heresie Lucifer Calaritanus Å¿ Lucif Caralit l. de non conueniend cum haeret telles of the desperate reuolt of many famous Bishops to Arianisme t Ambros de obit Satyr Theodor hist l. 3. c. 5. Ruff. hist l. 1. c. 30. Who himselfe also being one of the most zealous Catholickes in the world afterward fel into a most pestilent scisme and separating himselfe from the rest of the Church became the author of Luciferian heretikes Our aduersaries themselues also haue found in their own Church the same things wherewith the Iesuite vpbraids vs. The case of Fra. Spira is well knowne u See the story in Sleid. an 1548. he was a lawier neare to Padua and renouncing the Protestants religion which he had most zealously imbraced and professed and falling to Papistry through the persuasion of the Popes Legate fell into the most desperate desperation that we haue lightly heard of and refusing all comfort so miserably ended his dayes * Anto. Panorm de dict fact Alphons l. 2. n. 9 edir Basil per Heruag an 1538. Anthony Picent a famous Hermite who hauing filled all Italy Spaine and Sicily with the opinion of his sanctity reported to fast 40. daies and 40. nights together and when he eate to be fed by Angels and generally reputed for the rarest man aliue yet at his death cast forth horrible reproaches and blasphemies against our blessed Sauiour and his blessed mother the virgine Marie It is as easie to say that desperate obstinacy and obstinate desperation bred in these men by their cleauing to the Romish religion brought them to this miserable ende as it is to
doctrine coÌ„mitted to the Pastors of the church doth not at any time faile either in whole or part but is preserued inuiolate and entire from all errors growing thereto The second that the Protestants can shew no other succession of Pastors whereto this doctrine was committed then is contained in his catalogue Hence he concludes that his now church of Rome holds nothing but what the ancient Fathers held I answer to the second touching the Catalogue that for the first 600 yeares we approue it confessing the Pastors and Christians mentioned therein to haue bin the true Church And for the rest of the ages to this day we will allow the Catalogue with three limitations first that the Pastors and people therein named be confessed to haue kept the faith lesse purely then they of the former ages so that the lower they succeeded the more they were corrupted Secondly that from the 800. yeare specially such Pastours and people be added euery one in their place as misliked and resisted the corruptions of the Church of Rome growing on and vpheld the purer doctrine in such manner as I briefly touched in THE WAY Digress 52 Thirdly that the legend Saints Antichristian Popeâ— lying stories and the Popes creatures whose succession we need not be wiped out and the ordinary Pastors liuing in communion with the Church of Rome Greece Armenia and such like though we allow not euery singular and speciall man be supplied Let the Catalogue be reformed and vndertaken in this manner and the Pastors and the people contained therein shall be yeelded to be the same that Christ and his Apostles committed the truth to and in the meane time the Repliar doth but trouble himselfe and seduce his Reader wheÌ„ he beares him in hand that we desire to shew other Pastors or people besides these all Protestants freely affirming their faith to haue succeeded euen in the Church of Rome it selfe though the errors thereof were no part of their faith but the inuentions of men added thereunto 2 But the first thing affirmed that the Christian doctrine committed to the Pastours of the Church cannot faile in any degree or part thereof but is alway preserued inuiolate and entire from all error is false For albeit it be the commandemeÌ„t of God and were the desire of the blessed Apostles that it should be so How the Church cannot erre yet as I haue shewed the euent teaches that sometime it falls out otherwise in the same manner that it is Gods ordinance that no man should sinne and yet all men do sinne So that all that can be said of the Church and the Pastors thereof by vertue of the promise is that neither it nor they shall vniuersally all of them at any time faile in the beleefe profession of those truths which are absolutely and simply necessary to saluation though many Pastors and people reputed for the best part of the Church may erre and sometime also persist in ioyning mortall errors with the truth many ages together what time no Pastors or people at all shall appeare to hold the faith so entire but some corruptions not hindering saluation shall be holden therewith the which assertion as it ouerthrowes all the Iesuites discourse in this place so is it true that our Aduersaries grant neither the whole nor any part of the Church to be free from error but so far forth as it followes the Pope who himselfe by their like confession may erre and be deposed for herâ—sie Beside if Gods ordinance or the Apostles intendiment did warrant the Pastors of the Church that they should not erre at least vniuersally how comes it to passe that euen euery Doctor in his Catalogue from Dyonisius and Ignatius to Stapleton and Bellarmine haue had their errors all his Councels haue had theirs and the most of his Popes haue decreed one against another and there is not one Diuine in all his Catalogue not his dearest Thomas of Aquin but he will confesse him to haue erred yet erre he should not if the prouidence of God were to preserue the Doctors of his Church from all error in the degree that the Replie sayes The truth therefore succeeds continually in the Church without ceasing but first Not alway in all nor in the highest Pastors Secondly Nor alway without corruption Thirdly Nor at all times entire and inuiolate from all error but sometime a vniuersall apostasy may so ouerflow the Church that nothing shall remaine free from error but onely the necessary and fundamentall points of faith the which points do not therefore lose their succession because many corruptions are receiued taught with theÌ„ much lesse do those corruptions succeed with the truth from the Apostles but the Pastors people thus corrupted shew themselues not to haue kept his couenant who will saue them that haue perseuered in the foundation and be merciful to them that haue erred of inuincible ignorance and forgiue them that haue repented of their errors and damme them whether Pastors or people that with tyranny and contumacy haue maintained the corruptions 3 The Iesuites reasons to proue that the Pastours of the Church cannot erre and that the true faith cannot be corrupted are answered already in THE WAY § 14. A.D. Wherefore if my Aduersaries will deny the catalogue of Pastors Pag. 270. which I haue set downe to be of such as haue alway preserued the foresaid sacred Depositum of the truth entire and inuiolate I require first that they will assigne another Catalogue of such as did continually preserue it whole and without change Also I require that they assigne the first Pastour of my Catalogue which failed in preseruing the truth setting downe â—hall the point of doctrine wherein he erred and naming other Pastâ—â—â—s who resisted and continued to resist Lastly I require that they assigne not as their manner is White digr 51. 52. and as M. White doth such particulars as they may see ordinarily answered and refuted by Catholicke Authors but some plaine instances which neuer were yet nor cannot be answered or refuted Which my demands if they cannot satisfie as I am sure they cannot euery discreet man carefull of his soule will see that it is not safe to forsake this reuerend ranke and orderly succession of knowne Pastours to follow such a phantasticall Platonicall Idaea of an inuisible company of professing Protestants White p. 338. which M. White imagineth to haue alwaies bene as euery other Hereticke might imagine the professors of his sect to haue bene or to run after such a rabble of ragged hereticks as the same M. White assigneth for emineÌ„t meÌ„bers of the ProtestaÌ„t Church White ib. pag. 394. the which neither haue interrupted succession or continuance in time or place nor vniformity in doctrine with the ancient Church or one with another or with the Protestants of his age This foresaid consideration may suffice to let any indifferent man see that the same doctrine of faith which the ancient
whereby vnanswerably it followes that there was no visible head of the Church infallibly knowne all that time but according to our Aduersaries owne principles the Church wanted meanes to instruct and confirme her people in the faith yea the liuing rule of faith ceased and was ouerthrowne in these schismes The Iesuite replies that in all these schismes either the true Pope was knowne or if he were not yet there was meanes to cleare the doubt by electing a new The first of these is false that in all the schismes the true Pope was knowne For in some of them there were so many learned men and Princes of the earth following each part deuided one against another that it was impossible there should be any certainety And my Aduersarie could not haue instanced with me in a worse then in Vrbanus whose reputation was so small by reason of a Whereof reade Theodor à Niem de schism l. 1. c. 2. the manner of his entrance and gouernment that he was generally nicknamed Turbanus and so odious to his Cardinals that in reuenge b Ibi. cap. 51. Pandulf Collenut hist Neapolit l. 5. p. 233. some he tormented vpon the racke in base and miserable fashion and afterward tied vp in sackes and so drowned them and others he baked in an ouen and carried them when he had done vpon mules before him when he trauelled with their Cardinal hats vpon them Now it is a rule among our c Petr. Cresper sum Cathol fid verb. Disciplinae pag. 180. Aduersaries themselues that a doubtfull Pope is to be accounted for no Pope The succession therefore failed all the time of these schismes And albeit as the Reply speaketh there was meanes by a Councell to elect a new Pope yet what successe these meanes had he may perceiue by the stories of the Councels of Pisa Constance and Basil whereof this last d Aen. Sylu. comment de Gest Basil Concil lib. 2. deposed Eugenius and elected the Duke of Sauoy calling him Faelix the fift and yet our aduersaries still hold the succession in Eugenius yea the Replier hath put him in his Catalogue and left Faelix out which by this his rule he should not haue done And besides though a Councell may depose the schismatickes and elect a new Pope yet who shall he that is thus elected succeed or how can a Councell or any other meanes that shall be vsed peece together the interruption past that it may truly be said the succession was neuer broken Martin was elected by the Councell of Constance but let the Iesuite and Gregory of Valence his master of whom he hath borrowed all that he sayes answer whom he succeeded whether Vrban and his successors or Clement and his which side soeuer he takes he cannot rid himselfe For Clement and they that followed him in his time are thrust out of the catalogue and Vrbane with those that followed him put in yet the said Vrban in his time was thought no right Pope and Eugenius that immediatly followed this Martin was deposed by the Councell of Basil 13 The Iesuites hope therefore that he hath answered the obiections will faile him things may wittily and cunningly be pretended but let euery man that will stablish his conscience in the truth enquire whether the reason of true succession can hold where such things as these fall out and whether it be possible or can stand with Gods prouidence that a succession planted for such purposes as our aduersaries pretend this of Rome to be shall be furnished and peeced out with boyes women hereticks ignorant and vnlettered dotards simoniacall intruders and so many times diuers of them at once Two things therefore touching this matter of succession are the truth First that the outward and personall succession of Bishops in the Church of Rome is not so entire as is pretended but hath bene defiled and poisoned with so many disorders that it is as lame a succession as any is wheresoeuer in the world Their catalogues assigned and drawne to exhibite to the vulgar people looke smooth on the outside and nothing but well is discerned in them but examine the particulars and enquire into the histories of their succession and there was neuer any thing so patched and peeced together as they Secondly the succession of doctrine is the true succession and is not tied to that which is in place and persons and therefore let not the Iesuites blaze out their catalogues of names vntill they can prooue the corruptions which they haue added to religion wherein onely we forsake the Church of Rome were holden and beleeued by the persons named For what foolery is it to make a catalogue of Iesus Christ Saint Peter all the Apostles and Euangelists the virgin Marie and the whole Church of the first six hundred yeares as if these had professed what the Pope and his rabble now teach did these adore images vse the Communion in one kind beleeue Purgatorie did these teach it lawfull for the Pope to excommunicate depose murder the Kings of the earth Are not all these things against their expresse doctrine Let our aduersaries retire backe to modestie and truth and giue ouer their courses There are two parts of their religion One wherein they and we agree as that there is one God three persons one redeemer Iesus Christ that the Scripture Canonicall is Gods word that the dead shall rise and all the rest wherein we consent Another part of their religion is it which we and all the reformed Churches haue cast off as Images Transubstantiation Purgatorie Traditions and a hundred such like points The Catalogue assigned sufficiently shewes the former part both for them and vs against all Iewes and Gentiles that denie it The latter part they cannot shew to haue bene holden by the persons named vntill many ages after Christ as they came in by degrees in all which time the truth maintained by the Protestants against them was holden still and the Papacie was but a faction in the Church opposing the sounder part thereof And so the visible Church of Rome it selfe is it wherein the Protestants faith in all ages hath bene professed for the substance thereof Vincat veritas I. Wh.
worship of images and the distinctions whereby the same is maintained are examined And our aduersaries finally conuicted of giuing Gods honor to their images The ancient Church was against image worship Chap. 54. The Popes supremacy was not in the ancient Church neither is it acknowledged at this day by many Papists Nunne Brigets speech touching the Pope And Cyrils riddle Chap. 55. The Communion in ancient time was ministred to the people in both kinds An innouation in this point in the Church of Rome The pretences vsed against the Cup. Chap. 56. Touching Transubstantiation It was made an article of faith by the Lateran Councell 1200 yeares after Christ How it came in by degrees The Fathers neuer beleeued nor knew it Chap. 57. Touching the first coming in of errors into the Church with the Persons Time and Place Purgatory and pardons not knowne in the ancient Church nor in the Greeke Church to this day The true reason why the ancient prayed for the dead Chap. 58. The Popes supremacy Single life of Votaries The worship of images The merite of workes The sacrifice of the Masse And the Popish doctrine touching originall sinne all of them innouations The disagreement of Papists in their religion And namely in their doctrine of originall sinne Chap. 59. Obiections against the outward succession of the Pope Touching Peters being at Rome His Pastorall office what it was Whether there be any diuine authoritie for the Popes succession Not certaine what Popes haue succeeded one another Vacancies diuers times in the Sea of Rome The storie of the woman Pope of what credite The Pope hath bene an heriticke and erred è Cathedra The Pope succeeds by Simonie and violence Such succession is a nullitie by his owne law The Pharisees in Moses chaire how A. D. defends the succession of an ASSE Many Popes at once Vrbanus his crueltie towards the Cardinals What the Protestants say touching the succession of the Church of Rome Good Reader in the printing of this Booke some faults are committed some whereof are not great but the rest noted with this marke * concerne the sence or reading more materially The marginall quotations some excepted I could not correct but hope they are reasonable perfect Correct them as followeth The first number signifieth the page the second the line Page 3. line 26. shreene skreene 8. 12 it is good it is a good 11 25. downe downe 14. 11. vse vseth 16.14 Lonel Louel 20 11.* her mot er our mother * and it was when it was 24 19. Cuyckins Cuyckius 34 5 * the king Now may the king how may 15. * possible impossible 36.5 not so much not much 38 11.* seauenth second 45. 26. Anard Ruard 60. 2 * of minde of winde 71. 3 ingeniously ingenuously 80. 27 * serueth seemeth 81 16. * against him his against his 86. 26. compiled fraud fraud compiled 94. 35. * see see 103. 13. Sato Soto 105. 15 * vncerten And vncerten and 106. 11. please pleaseth 109. 1. * to heauen to haue 112.28 the like the life 113 5 * in cause in state 116 1 * charging Chargeth 138. 9 * one promise on praemis 145. 20. none now 14â— 10. * Casenists Casuists 148. 10. this a poore this poore 14 and them put it forth 34. to beleeue not to beleeue 156. 27. contriued contained 157.30 yeed yeeld 174 4 * in themselues in the Scripture 180. 35. * visible inuisible 181 14.* inuisible members inuisible the members 188. â—6 answer for answer For. 192. 23. that which the which 194. 11 Henriquex Henriquez 199. 33. * Eusebius Justine Martyr 200. 20. daughter sonne 213 9 * this of God this will of God 12. as they call such as they call 226. 21. or* his purp for his purp 228. 5. none noe 229. 18. * no mans one mans 230 2. by othes by others 12 * the works euâ—â— the sinne euen of corrupt masse was not but was 238. 29. * deliberate not deliberate 245. 34. * the cause since the conscience 259. 29. * He replies sec he replies Secondly 264. 23. saies it ouer saith it ouer and ouer 265. 25. or translation of translation 275. 28. * motion notion 286. 31. lastly put it out and set the figure 7 that followes there 287. 16. conceiued conteined 21. dives diuerse 299. 1. * what heresies what he replies 304. 35. * in the fourth proposition in fower propositions 311. 3 is is it is it 315. 9. * first and last hiest and last 318. 12. RIGHR RIGHT 319. 26. may do can do 335. 16 knownes not knowes not 341. 20. we might impart we impart 367. 32. * vniuersall vniuocall 368. 7 manner matter 373. 21. held in the substance nor held the substance 381. 37. euer by euen by 403. 18. them them that them that 414. 30 * yet many yet the maine 437.9 Nanâ—us Nonnus 448. 26. Councell Councels 460. 15. had bene haue bene 471. 24. * as the profite all the profite 485. 18. * Then I haue Thus J haue 450. 8. And expounds how and he expounds how 505. 6. not with not onely with 504. 23. * to any other to â—â—â—ther 511. 31. * be reuolued be renewed 513. 33. * shewed them thawed them 527. 17. that contrary the contrary 529. 4. * Againe whether Againe whereas 532 1.* that it is sinne some that it is sinne 11. That it some that it 13. That it some that it 544 4 * alleadged alleadging 29. VNLERA VNLEAR In the Margent I obserued by the way Pag. â—7 letter c c. 52. Ch. 53. 23. r orthodonograph orthodoxagraph 24. * see c. 53. see Ch. 52. 38. r Sano Saxon. 67. c. Chap. 35. 1 Ch. 34. 1. 35. â— 77. â— * Ch. 54. Ch. 53. 95. d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 108. u put forth the whole quotation ** 113. d Abulens parad l. 34. Abul parad l. c. 34. 121. * came to come to * 133. line 15. action occasion * 148. * cap. 35. and 36. chap. 34. and 35. * 158 * cap. 28.3 chap. 27. 3. * 194. * see vers see Gerson 261. e Philocrat Philostrat 280. i noted afore noted afore pag. 62 in the marg 528. â— Abul in Sent. Abul in Deuteron THE WAY TO THE TRVE CHVRCH defended against A.D. his Reply CHAP. 1. 1. The title of A.D. his reply A wonder not farre from Rome 2. Writers not putting their names to their bookes censured by the Iesuites The Popes iester 3. The name of Minister and Priest 4. Church the pillar of truth 5. The way of Catholick discipline is the way of the Scripture 6. The Iesuits Method in perswading to Papistrie 7. The maner of A.D. his replying and his promise to raile THis A.D. hauing taken my booke into his correction intitles what he hath written against it A REPLY made vnto M. Anthonie Wootton and M. Iohn White MINISTERS wherein it is shewed that they haue not sufficiently answered the TREATISE OF FAITH and wherein also the truth of the chiefe points of the said TREATISE is
Popes Supremacie e Hom. 49. in op imperf Paris in 8. an 1557 See Bellar. de verb. Dei l. 4. c. 11. §. Sexto profert Posseu appar to 1. pag. 847. Chrysostome where he iustifies the Scriptures f Ind. expurg Hisp pag. 18. Gregorie Nyssen where he speakes against the worship of creatures Why do you g Iâ—d ex purg Belg. pag. 12. professe that in the old Catholicke writers you beare with many errors and when in disputation they are opposed against you you extenuate and excuse them and many times by deuising a shift denie them and feine some fit sence vnto them Why do you take order that h Posseu biblio select l. 1. c. 48. pag. 38. in the publicke Libraries of Princes and others euery one shall not see the manuscripts Greeke Latin or any other which are not permitted by the Church because these also must be purged What is the meaning of that speech which i Apparat. verb Anton. Florent Posseuine the Iesuite vses of Antoninus and his writings that he now enioying the blessed light of heauen no doubt desires that all his writings should be reviewed and occupied purer then of old they were Say now and dissemble not is it not a violent presumption that the Fathers are cleare for Protestants when Papists thus purge and censure their writings in such things as are in controuersie betweene vs and are they not resolued in this damned course of purging bookes when they thinke the authors in heauen reioyce to see their workes hereby made purer Verily Erasmus k Ep. ad Card. Mogunt said that many things are condemned in Luthers bookes as hereticall which in Austin and Bernard are read for good Diuinitie And our contentment is that daily experience shewes this to be true l Ph. Camerar medit hist to 2. pag. 39. Macro l. â— c. 8. They write how the Romanes at the siege of Carthage according to their maner first coniured the Dij tutelares out of it afore they proceeded Be thou a God he or she that protectest the people or citie of Carthage but specially thee the Patron thereof I worship thee first and then intreate thee to abandon Carthage the citie the places the temples euery thing thereof and to come away to vs and ours and dwell in our citie our places our temples and be our Patrons So do we vow you playes and sacrifices Thus play our aduersaries in printing the bookes of the ancient Fathers and Schoole-men If thou be a God or a Goddesse come forth if a doctrine or a period that protectest the Church of the Protestants come away we intreate thee forth of the Text forth of the Table forth of the Margent into our Indices expurgatorij and we vow to sacrifice you in the fire A D. Againe that Protestants haue done nothing against the Church of Rome but innumerable people in all ages wished it long ago 7 I said another thing immediatly before this that the Iesuite skips We haue the mercies of God to pleade for vs whereby our Church hath bin miraculously vpholden When they threatned God defended vs when they practised and expected our ruine God disappointed them when they wrought all manner of treasons yet God deliuered vs. The conscience of his owne guilt and the enuie of our well-doing would not let him mention this yet here againe I commend it to him that by considering the behauiour of his side towards vs he may the better discerne what they are And to that he hath obserued I answer that I shewed the truth thereof in the same place by the example of Gerson and testimony of Nauclere which the Iesuite dissembles because his occupation is not to obserue the grounds of my speeches but to raile me downe yet the m Reformationê autem generaleÌ„ ecclesiae extremè necessariam fore nostru temporibus mores corrupit totius orbis praenuntiant cum reuera penè omnis caro corrupit viam suaÌ„ Iac. de Parady Collect. de sept stat eccl willingnesse to accept reformation and the ioy of all nations when it came and the detestations they shewed of the Romish tyrannie that had oppressed them shewes I said the truth And if I had to do with an aduersary of any worth or that were fit for a discourse or saw it otherwise needfull to satisfie others I would in confirmation hereof repeate my words that I then vsed What ceremonie what doctrine what custome what one parcell of their superstition haue we refused but the world long since complained of it The tyrannie and oppression of old Babylon was neuer so complained of I will onely mention the speech of Gerson that was Chancellour of Paris almost a hundred yeares before Luther whose bookes from the beginning to the end containe almost nothing but complaints of the Churches state he n Tom. 1. pag. 241. E. sayes Let experience answer what hurt what danger what confusion the contempt of the sacred Scripture which yet is sufficient for the gouernment of the Church vnlesse Christ were an vnperfect law-giuer hath brought let the Cleargie be viewed which should haue married heauenly wisedome which is peaceable and chaste if it haue not committed fornication with that adulterous harlot earthly humane and diabolicall wisedome The state of the Church also is it not all become as it were brutish and monstrous That many doubt not to consult that this state of the Church were better to be gouerned by the inuentions of men then by the diuine Euangelicall law as if the soule were lesse then the bodie and spirituall food lesse then carnall This assertion on my faith is not onely false but blasphemous for the doctrine of the Gospell by the professors thereof hath enlarged the Church as farre as heauen which the sonnes of Agar seeking after earthly wisedome haue thrust into the mire and it is the mercie of God that it is not wholy fallen The which things because my conscience testifies I speake not for gaine or of ambition or for mine owne credit but for the maintenance of the truth and common good because this court of Diuines hath little promoted the truth if not contemned it which notwithstanding hath purchased to it selfe all the glorie it can Pag. 28. A. D. All these be very grosse vntruths and some of them such as not onely Catholickes but also learned Protestants will confesse to be false yea euen M White himselfe either must confesse himselfe to be blockishly ignorant or carelesly inconsiderate or else he must grant that he hath affirmed these things against his owne knowledge and conscience Which being so I might here make an end without saying any more as hauing giuen the Reader a taste of M. Whites want of truth and sinceritie sufficient to make any discreet man beware how he giueth credit to these his writings 8 Away with this intollerable bragging and let the pen be put into the hands of some if any such be
Papists to explicate proue their transubstantiation that it is confessed to be too grosse and meerly false if the words be vnderstood as they sound of the bodie of Christ So the Glosse Nisi sanc intelligas verba Berengarij in maiorem incides haeresim quà m ipse habuit §. Dentibus Turrecremata Nec iste modus loquendi est tenendus Ibi. nu 1. §. Respondeo Hervaeus Quod quidem vocabulum vt sc à dentibus tereatur non est extendendum sed exponendum restringendum vt sit sensus non quod corpus verum Christi teratur dentibus sed quod illae species sub quibus realiter est tereantur dentibus Et ideo est alia opinio communior verior c. 4. d. 10. qu. 1. pag. 17. But this Glosse is proued vntrue by this that the words thus expounded containe nothing against Berengarius opinion who had denied onely the grosse and reall presence of Christs flesh it was sometime therefore beleeued by some bodie in the Church of Rome belike that his blessed bodie touching the place and maner of presence was as far from them that receiue the Sacrament as heauen is from earth This for the reall and spirituall presence If the Iesuite dare put his Transubstantiation to the triall let him looke into m Digress 49. nu 9. THE WAY and hearken what many of his owne learned men say of it and when he hath done let him take a view of the poore answer that in this his Reply he hath made vnto them Pag. 32. A.D. The fourth marke is set downe by M. White in these words The most points of Papistrie are directly and at the first sight absurd and against common sence and the law of nature If he meane that they seeme at the first sight absurd c. to the seduced people of his sect who neither beleeue nor rightly vnderstand either the things by vs beleeued or the reason or authoritie for which we beleeue them then it may be he saith true but nothing to the purpose For if this were a sufficient marke to make vs misdoubt our religion by the like reason other heretickes or infidels who do not beleeue the mysteries of the blessed Trinitie the Incarnation c. might thinke to make vs misdoubt the truth of these mysteries because they who neither beleeue these mysteries nor rightly vnderstand them nor the reasons and motiues which make vs beleeue them will say that these mysteries are directly and at first sight absurd c. yet in truth they are not absurd nor against but aboue our reason and sense so I say to M. White although other points of our religion seeme to him absurd yet in truth they are not absurd neither are they contrary to but at most aboue the reach of naturall reason 4 I do not obiect against the religion of the Papacie that it is but aboue the reach of reason For many mysteries of the true faith are so the which we must beleeue and n Nec quisquam potest intelligentiam Dei apprehendere nisi qui toto se despecto conuersus ad sapientiam Dei omnem quaerendi ratiocinationem transtuleriâ— ad credendi fideÌ„ Oros l. 6. c. 1. not examine by sence but that many points thereof are absurd and directly against sence and the light of nature which no peece of true religion is as for example that a man endued with reason should fall downe and adore and inuocate an image o Shewed in THE WAY §. 50. n. â—6 51. n 7. and below chap. 54. the which in the Church of Rome is taught and practised As many other points are as absurd as it But if it be true which the Iesuite sayes that they are mysteries which we vnderstand not being a seduced people not acquainted with the authority whereupon they are beleeued that is another matter that I knew not before for they are to blame that will demand reason for the mysteries of Rome that haue authoritie beyond reason p Apoc. 17.5 whose forehead hath the word Mysterie written in it and I had forgotten q Quia in his quae vult ei est pro ratione voluntas Nec est qui ei dicat cur ita facis Gloss §. Veri c. Quanto de transl ep Sacrilegij instaâ— esset disputare de facto suo Glos §. Quis enim d. 40. Non nos Jta nos ad iudices reuocas ac si nescires omnia iura in scrinio pectoris nostri collecata esse sic flat sententia Loco cedant omnes Pontifex sum Paul 2. Platin. p. 304. a rule in his law that forbids men to aske any reason of his doings But in the mean time where are the Iesuites r Introd q. 4. p. 100. prudentiall motiues without which nothing ought to be beleeued because the vnderstanding cannot assent to the thing propounded without some probable motiue For religion bids not men be stockes A. D. And one cause why the common sort of Protestants do at the first sight thinke them absurd is because they haue not heard points of our doctrine truly related and declared as our Authors declare them nor the reasons and authorities set downe for which we beleeue them but haue heard such ignorant or malicious Ministers as M White make false relation of points of absurd doctrine to be held by vs which we do not hold but abhorre As to go no further M. White falsely relateth in this very place that we hold the Pope to haue right to Lord it ouer the Scriptures Fathers Councels Church and all the world That we teach also men to murther the King to pay no debts to blow vp the Parliament to dispense with murther and whoredome c. These and such like be not points of our doctrine but shamelesse and slanderous vntruths by which simple people are drawne by ignorant or malicious Ministers to mislike our doctrine in generall and to be apt to haue a worse conceit of euery point of it in particular especially at the first sight then by due examination they shall finde it to deserue 5 Not Protestants onely thinke Poperie absurd but many Papists also censuring the points I haue named and misliking them shew plainly that I spake true yet the Reply sayes the cause why the common sort of Protestants thinke Poperie absurd is because they heare not the points of Papistrie truly related but their ignorant and malicious Ministers charge them to hold what they hold not This is false for first these Protestants that thus condemne Papistrie do dayly reade the Papists owne bookes which are not restrained and prohibited with a The reading and vse of Lutheran bookes forbidden not onely the vulgar but all others of what state degree order or condition soeuer they be though Bishops Archbishops or greater onely the Jnquisitors are excepted by a Decretall of Iulius the 3. See Sept. Decr. l. 5. tit 4. de lib. prohib c. 2. that seueritie wherewith
the money rated Among the grieuances of the States of Germany this was d Grauam Ger. n. 3. infascic re expet fug one that the Popes pardoners granted freedome for * Noxas praeteritas nut futuras times to come and so filled the countrey with all whordome incest periury murder theft rapine vsurie Onus Ecclesiae e Cap. 15. n. 47. pag. 27. sayes it is manifest our Mother the Church with her children are not a little perplexed and rent about the rule and manner of penances and pardons and without Gods great helpe she will neuer be able to deliuer her selfe 8 And thus not onely the common sort of Protestants but the resolutest Papists also that are may see whether we relate the points of their doctrine truly or no and the Reasons and Authorities for which they are beleeued among them and when their deeds are so apparant that very children in the streets obserue them and all their books so full of these damnable doctrines that they contriue almost nothing else they must not thinke with crying out blacke lies ignorant and malitious Ministers shameles and slanderous vntruths to shift themselues it were a better way for them and more expedient for the saluation of their soules and the edification of so many people from whom with fraud and treachery they conceale these things to confesse them and forsake them remembring there is a God that hates lying and will be reuenged on treason and falsehood For our parts when we report these things we do it not in malice or vntruly but to admonish the world what wolues they be that thus iet vp and downe in sheepes clothing CHAP. XI 1. The Papists manner of dealing with immodesty and vncharitablenes Briarly and Walsinghams bookes noted 2. Some reports of the Papists meekenes and mildnes Hunt a Seminary arraigned at Lancaster The dumbe cattell slaughtered in Lanc. The generall desire of vs all to reduce them to charity A. D. The fifth marke saith M. White is their intemperate and vnchristian proceeding against vs for saith he if they were of the truth they would not defend themselues and deale against vs with grosse lying vncharitable railing irreconciliable malice which are the weapons darkenesse but with grauitie and sincerite as becomes Christs Gospell Thus he who with more truth might haue told many of his owne-Protestant * Whether this imputatioÌ„ made by M. White against vs be more fitly applied to Protestants or Catholiks J refer me to those who shall with indifferency read and compare their writings and particularly J wish the reader to reade and note what after due examination was found and is set down in priâ—e by M. Walsingham once an earnest Portestant and now a good Catholike conuerted partly by obseruation of the syncerity of Catholiks and grosse lying euidently found to be frequented by not onely one but diuers chiefe protestant writers brethren of these soule faults with which he falsely chargeth vs and might also haue found himselfe so grossely guiltie in the same kinde as he should have bene afraid to cast these stones of calumniation against vs least with shame they should be more iustly returned against himselfe whom I haue now so freshly taken with the manner of intemperate and vnchristian proceeding aagainst vs to wit with grosse lying vnchristian rayling and malice I will not say as he doth irreconciliable malice because I will in charity hope the best that he may repent and amend and so be reconciled to vs which reconciliation when he shall syncerely desire and seeke he shall by experience finde that we do not beare irreconciliable malice but will with all charity receive him and that he need not feare that we will vse any ceremony of exorcizing him as a possessed persoÌ„ which is neuer vsed by vs when ordinary Protestants euen Ministers are conuerted as those that have bene conuerted can tell He shall then finde also that which now praeiudicate conceipt will not let him see that our authors who charge Protestant writers with absurd opinions had iust cause so to do and that there is among vs ordinarily that spirit of meekenesse and forbearance farre more then is ceteris paribus or can be expected to be among Protestants Ordinarilie I say because so farre forth as any of our men haue threatned or attempted any vnfit thing or haue in their writings or actions demeaned themselues otherwise then in ChristiaÌ„ duty they ought our Church doctrine doth dissalow it and therefore no reason that their priuate faults or errors should be ascribed to our Church whereas on the contrarie side it may be doubted whether Protestants may in like manner pleade that their Church doctrine doth also dissalow all misdemeanors of their men because diuers of eueÌ„ their * See the Protestants Apology principall pillars and chiefe men either by wordes examples or writings haue without controlment of any of their Church Canons opened the gap to far more rancour impatience and rebellion against their Catholike Soueraignes then can be shewed in Catholikes against their Protestant Princes 1 IN all this you see not a word that disprooues my obiection but onely a little passion and wrinkling of his face ioyned with some charitable speeches concerning himselfe all which is easily done by a man of his practise but I contemne it and therefore to the matter I named in my Booke for a taste some speciall points wherein I thought the lying and malice wherewith I charged them might appeare their giuing it out that we hold God to be the author of sin deny good workes to be necessary put women recusants into the stewes pull downe Churches make hauock of their Cardinals Archbishops Doctors Nobles Queenes What not as if there had neuer bene any persecuted as Papists be That they hold vs Protestants to be possessed that they haue an order in their Church to exorcize and coniure a reconciled Protestant that all the Queenes time most vnnaturally and barbarously they threatned the land and by execrable treasons conspired against it and that they haue reported and practised these things I shewed out of their booke naming the place and leafe of euery booke as the reader may see and thereupon charged them with intemperate and vnchristian proceeding against vs and said that if they were of the truth they would not thus defend themselues with lying rayling and malice Wherein how truely I speake the reader must iudge by this that the Iesuit excepts not against my quotations wherein I shewed this which are true and full but answers me with bare denials and idle passion alleadging the bookes of Walsingham and Briarly wherein he sayes they haue shewed Protestants to be more guilty of these things as if he should haue replied Aske my fellow if I be a theefe which of themselues are enough to iustifie my speech if there were no other matter extant to charge our adversaries withall this waies that Papists deale against vs with the weapons of
Pater noster But is Sir Minister so bold as to charge any that are well borne would to God Sir Minister had not seene Dianaes nakednes it would haue staied a great deale of barking that hath bene after him YET WHAT HE WRIT IS STIL TRVE IF ALL THE SEMINARIES IN ENGLAND HAD IT IN CHASE I wil seeke the disgrace of no mans person of any degree I know the countrey to haue many good Gentlefolke in it I onely report the barbarisme that Popery hath bred in such as follow it and though I haue no acquaintance or knowledge with all yet d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eustath Iliad the experience of some allowes me to speake as I do that this ignorance is general and the most yea of the better sort addicted to Popery are plunged in it 3 And that which the Iesuit reports my Country-man a maÌ„ of good esteeme place said of my booke is not greatly materiall supposing some Popish Gentleman or woman said so For besides himselfe whosoeuer he be that countrey hath many noble godly Gentlemen as good as he wherof some haue seene my Booke and reported otherwise both of it and me and it may be the Gentleman alleadged if he were well examined would prooue as learned as the Knight that Claudius Espencaeus e In 2. Tim. pag. 118. telles of who being demaÌ„ded his beleefe touching the holy Ghost answered he knew not whether there were an holy Ghost or no. And my comfort is that when this present place that I now write shall come into their hand they will call to minde the trauell I tooke among them with all instance and lenity to do good and the scandalous and lying reports wherewith Seminaries vse to defend themselues they know me and Seminaries and Popish Gentlemen and haue ability to compare vs one with another in the meane time I esteeme the man and his deposition alike he a man of no great esteeme that hath not so much as a name and will be commanded by a poore student to stand vpon the stage like a ridle for all readers to guesse at and his deposition is sutable when he taxeth a man with shamelesnesse and impudencie for noting that which a thousand to one will be prooued by his wife and possible by himselfe if they vse to say any praiers at all 4 Whereas I said also this generall barbarousnesse did abound in the people vntil it pleased God by the Ministrie of his Gospell to conuert them he replies that this seldome happens to sound Catholiks to be conuerted or rather peruerted by the Protestant Ministery I answer for let the truth be knowne in euery thing that I haue affirmed that the Protestant Ministery hath not bene fruitlesse among the people but hath most happily conuerted thousands and that countrey some part of it especially where the word hath bene more frequent yeelds at this day and long hath done as many and as sound professors of the truth as any part of our kingdome And in the backwardest part thereof many people haue ioyfully receiued the truth and acknowledged the errors wherein the guile of Seminaries haue holden them and many that appeared to be souÌ„d Catholiks haue done this I heard an aged yeoman after a Sermon effectually preached * At Gooznar neare to Prâ—ston in a parish where Seminaries most haunt when the preacher had done stand up in his seate and desiring his neighbours to make meanes to obtaine a competent Preacher into the place professe It was true the Preacher said and that his old religion as he termed it had allowed them to liue in all naughtinesse This sheweth that Popish superstition would soone be rooted out there and those locusts soone be blowne away if the word were effectually preached among them CHAP. XIII Touching praier to Saints 1. Mediation of Redemption intercessioÌ„ 2. BonaueÌ„tures Psalter 3. Christ the only Mediator of intercessioÌ„ 4. 5. 6. Reasons why we desire not the dead to pray for vs as we do the living 5. The praiers of a Friar and an Archbishop 6. 7. It cannot be shewed that the dead heare vs. 8. Deuices of the Schoolemen to shew how they heare vs. 10. God not like an earthly king 10. 11. In their Saint-inuocation they Platonize 12. Men equalled with Christ A. D. But let us see what M. White bringeth to giue credit to this his incredible narration Pag. 40. and to take away the wonder of his countrymen who admire his shameles impudency in relating home-matters so contrary to their certaine and direct knowledge This brutish condition of their people saith he may the better be credited and is lesse to be wondered at because the open practise of their Church giues them example and encourages them by their Idolatry and superstition towards the Saints departed For how can that people discerne their ignorance whose Pastours euen before their eies in their open Seruice and printed bookes serue the Saints and worship them with the same seruice that they giue to Christ This saith he I offer for the seauenth motiue to induce any Papist to suspect his owne religion For it cannot be the faith of Christ that takes his honour and giues it to another In their seruice and prayers the Virgin Mary is made an intercessour for sinne as if Christ were not the sole Mediatour vnlesse the merits and mediation of another did come betweene These are M. Whites words In which he frameth a farre more grieuous accusation against vs then the former as though not onely the common people or the most euen of our men and women well borne and brought vp for ciuill qualities and of good place in the countrey were in manner aforesaid brutishly ignorant but that the open practise of our Church giues them example and encourages them by Idolatry and superstition towards Saints departed in that in our open Seruice our Pastours serue the Saints with the same seruice that they giue to Christ taking his honour and giuing it to another and in our seruice and prayers making the Virgin Mary intercessour for sinne as if Christ were not the sole Mediatour c. A grieuous accusation assuredly if it be proued true and no lesse grosse slander if it be as I doubt not euidently to prooue it vntrue As concerning the lâ—st part of this accusation of the B. Virgin Mary being made intercessour as though Christ were not sole Mediatour I haue answered sufficiently in relating and refuting M. Wottons vntruths where I shew that Saints in heauen or men liuing on earth being made intercessours doe not hinder Christ to be sole Mediatour 1 THe Iesuite so relates and confutes my words as if I had onely obiected some small superstition in praying to the Virgin Mary and no more whereas the bare inuocating of her is the least thing that I stand vpon We vrge the praying to her in * They say she is God Dea mater Paul Cortes in sent pag. 65. Lips virg
aliquos viros spirituales tantopere in exercitus spiritualibus in familiaritate diuina proficere vt absque vlla temeritate possint rectè absque vlla haesitatione credere se inuenisse gratiam remissionem peccatorum apud Deum Andr. Vega. pro Concil p. 313. our aduersaries some few Iesuites excepted who are but one and an vpstart faction against the maior part in the Romane Church freely yeeld unto First that a iustified man may haue such certainty of the remission of his sinnes as is void of all feare and doubting in the same manner as any man may certainely know there is such a place as Rome Constantinople London Do. Bannes y In Tho. 22. q. 18. art 4. concl 3. The same sayes Tolet. in Rom. 5. v. 5. p. 225. sayes Our hope whereby we looke for Saluation is and is called simplie such as cannot deceiue vs and firme and safe both in the Scripture and in the doctrine of the Church because through the diuine promise and power of Gods mercy whereupon it leanes it can no more deceiue vs then faith in whose testimony it is founded Martin Isengren hath written a whole booke of purpose to shew this point in it he hath these words z Eisengren pro conc Trid. de certit grat p. 228. I haue many a time and often visited the sicke and bene with them that haue died and no man can report of me but that as soone as they had declared their repentance I exhorted them with all diligence to haue an VNDOVBTED AND CERTAINE CONFIDENCE that our most mercifull God would for the merit of his Sonne WITHOVT ALL DOVBT forgiue them their sinnes and after this life giue them his heauenly kingdome yea he sayes a Pag. 217. All the chiefest Diuines of the Church of Rome whose writings for that purpose he had read and searched though they did not allow a man to be altogether secure and free from all care and heedfulnesse yet * Vniuersi vno ore all of them with one voice teach that we must NOT TREMBLE OR MISTRVST BVT HAVE A FIRME HOPE AND CERTAINE CONFIDENCE b Omnes orthodoxi receptique theologi quotquot tam inde ab Apostolorum temporibus ad hunc vsque annum vixerint p. 254. and he adds that this is the doctrine of all the Schoolemen and Fathers that haue bene since the Apostles whose testimonies and words he alledges at large c Dionys Areo pagit Cypr. Ambr. Augusti Chrysost Cyril Basil Theodor. Leo. Gregor Roman Pius 5. Sixt. Senensis Mich. Medina Anselm Bernard Magist Thom. Scot. Altisiodor Reyner Alexand. Lyra. Bonauent Dionys Carthus Gabr. Pelbart Biga Gotshal Thesaur Hos Ruard Louaniens Caietan Roffens Ecch. Nausca Cassal Soto Canis Vega. Castro Torrēs Theses Cathol disput adu Wittemberg to the number of more then 40. Whereby the reader may iudge of my Aduersaries learning and religion that hauing derided such testimonies and signes of our being in Gods fauour as Isengren auerres to be infallible d Reply p. 58. concludes that the perswasion which any Protestant hath that their sinnes are forgiuen is a fond presumptuous fiction of their owne heart but Isengren e Vbi sup p. 217. answers that such fantasticall companions not vnderstanding the truth of things babble of that whereof they can giue no sufficient reason Secondly when it is demanded whence this certainty so free from doubting and feare arises they grant it arises from the light of the Scripture that is to say the promises of mercy and forgiuenes reuealed in the Scripture beget and produce it in the heart of man Ruard f Ruard att 9. pag. 121. sayes Though it be inferiour to the certainty of faith yet it DEPENDS VPON THE SENTENCES OF THE SCRIPTVRE and therefore faith infused mediatly inclines vnto it Casalius saies g Cassal quadrip inst p. 221. l. 2. c. 8. This confidence arises by hauing respect to the diuine conditionall promises and to the conditions that they require Vega following the doctrine of Bacon the Carmelite h Vega pro Cōcil l. 9 c. 47. pag. 321. Is credit cui aliquid sine vlla haesitatione certum persuasum est Catech Roman pag. 17. saies This assurāce is not the assurāce of faith but an assurance following faith yet saith he if that will serue the turne to call it the assurance of faith I WILL NOT GREATLY STRIVE but that there may be peace and we may all agree in one I will grant that you require and willingly yeeld my selfe These men as learned as euer liued in the Church of Rome you see deny not this certainty of faith or knowledge following faith howsoeuer the said faith be not so intent and strong in apprehending that obiect as it is in beleeuing that which is immediatly reuealed and expressely written For what habite or facultie is there in the soule whereby to receiue and apply the promises of the Gospell touching the benefits of Christ for our redemption but onely faith For although the holy Ghost not tying himselfe to termes do a 1. Ioh. 4.13 3.14 sometime call it knowledge yet calling it b Rom 6.8 1. Ioh. 4.16 againe beleeuing alone or beleeuing and knowing it is manifest that he intends such a knowledge as not onely flowes from the principles of faith but also is reduced to the same habite and this onely which the holy Ghost teaches in termes so expresse and formall might serue to stop the mouthes of all our aduersaries if they had not set themselues to resist euen Gods owne Spirit when it speakes against their corruptions For with what other eies can the soule behold the heauenly light of the Gospell How shall that confidence assurance certaintie which is created by the mixture of the light of the Scripture with light of a good conscience renued by the holy Ghost belong to any humane knowledge when the Scripture sayes expresly i Gal. 3.14 The promise of the Spirit is receiued by faith and wheresoeuer in all the Bible the Gospell is reuealed men are called vpon to beleeue I will not deny but faith hath his degrees and can beleeue some things more resolutely then other and one time is stronger then at another but this is it I vrge that if there be granted a certainety of a mans owne speciall standing in grace which certainty arises by the Scriptures it must needes also be granted that it is a worke or effect of faith this is confirmed by the courage and constancy of Martyrs and by the admirable resolution that we see in good men when they die Saint Ambrose k In Psal 118. serm 7. pag. 641. saies we see innocent persons in this world ioyfully to runne towards iudgement to hate delaies to hasten their triall whereas the guilty flie from it and he giues the reason Because the iust man knowes eternall life the fellowship of Angels the crowne of his good merits is laied vp
presume to attaine faith without vsing the meanes Secondly to helpe such as despaire when they either know not that there is such a meanes or vnderstand not what in particular it is To take away presumption and desperation he layes downe this conclusion touching the rule of faith the which when he afterward defines to be his Romane Church speaking by the mouth of the Pope you may perceaue what a ready way he takes to keepe men from Presumption and Desperation 2 But whatsoeuer his intent were he sayes I grant him 4. things which is in a manner as much as he desires First that there is such a rule left Secondly that by this rule we may be infallibly instructed what is to be holden for true faith Thirdly that the cause why men misse the truth is because they either finde it not or obey it not Fourthly this rule is of such nature that it is able to direct al men yea the simplest and vnlearnedst aliue The which I granted him then and by these presents do grant againe vpon condition he will not be proud of that I giue him without any vantage to his purpose as if he had obtained some great boone but hold him to my grant mannerly and incroach no further For I gaue him warning that if he meant such a rule as all men at all times may haue accesse vnto as being concealed from none but visible and reuealed or manifest to all places ages and persons I would not grant it him for the reasons there expressed the which my exception in this place he calles vnorderly running before the Hare and in his next Section answers by expounding himselfe that he did not meane it should be actually manifest but onely such as * Doth he meane I maâ—uell in his Potentia remota whereof pag. 165. below c. 26. might be knowne but I ranne not before the Hare for I hunted a Foxe that was closely stealing to the wood in which game good Fox-hunters say it is not against the law to crosse the way and marke his headding For his head is to the wood in euery conclusion aiming at nothing but to traine by degrees such as follow him into his visible Church and the Popes authority ruling therein and therefore I distinguisht the diuers sences of his words being acquainted before with old Reinard Gregory of Valence in whose steppes I saw the Reply to tread and shewed which was true and which false that there might be no ambiguity And although he answer that I mistake him when I thought his meaning was this rule should be manifest and actually knowne to all yet I am not satisfied for though I giue him leaue to expound himselfe and accept his exposition yet what I suspected necessarily followes still of that he saies afterward as I then obserued for g Treat c. 10. in the WAIE §. 13. he defines the teaching of the Church to be the rule and this Church he maintaines to be such as not onely is of it nature visible and such as may be seene but h Treat c. 12. in the WAIE §. 18. inde manifest and actually knowne to all places ages and persons in the world And it followes manifestly of that if you say that sometime the Church could not be knowne nor be a meanes whereby the true faith might be knowne then men liuing at such time should want the meanes and so it were not vniuersally true that God would haue all men saued and come to the knowledge of his truth He that saies the Church is the Rule and such a rule as all men vniuersally may at all times know meanes that the rule is manifest and actually knowne to all this meaning he disclaimes and I am satisfied with it yet it followes violently vpon his owne wordes 3 Thirdly from the 4. things I graunt he gathers 3. things more First that No man must presume or once hope to attaine to true faith without finding and following the rule thereof ordained by God Secondly that No man neede to despaire though he be neuer so vnlearned or simple but by seeking finding and follwing this rule he may be sufficiently instructed in faith Thirdly that it concernes euery one careful of his saluation to seek follow this rule for his instruction in the faith which is necessary to saluation These three I likewise yeeld him though they be not that which he principally almes at to encourage him because it will be some little honesty for him when his friends reade his booke to shew them what materiall points he hath extorted from M. White but the gift is not great my aduersary will returne the whole 7. backe againe in exchange for one single one that I can name him CHAP. XXV The text of 1. Tim. 2.4 God willes all men to be saued c. expounded The diuers expositions that are giuen of those wordes Gods antecedent will as they call it is not his will formally The antecedent consequent will of God expounded diuers wayes A.D. § 1. Concerning the meaning of the Apostles wordes Pag. 145. GOD WIL ALL MEN TO BE SAVED c. First it is certaine that the meaning of the Apostles words is not that God hath an absolute effectuall will and decree to saue euery man or to bring euery man in particular to the knowledge of the truth or to the knowledge of that â—â—â—diate rule and meanes which he hath ordained to instruct men in faith This is euident because if there were any such absolute and effectuall will and decree in God then since his will is alwaies fulfilled all should effectually be saued or should actually come to the knowledge of the truth or at least to the knowledge of that Rule and meanes which God hath ordained to instruct men in faith which euident experience telleth vs not to be true By which my assertion M. White may see how much he mistaketh when he thinkes me to meane that the Rule and Meanes ordained by God is not onely as I speake visible that is such as may be assigned and knowne White pag. 9. but also manifested as M. White speaketh that is such as is actually knowne to all places ages and persons in the world Secondly whereas there are diuers expositions of these wordes of the Apostle giuen by good authors the chiefe question betwixt me and my aduersaries is about the exposition of S. Damascen S. Thomas and many other learned Diuines who hold that the Apostle saying that God will all men to be saued meaneth that God hath an Antecedent will to saue euery man although considering the sinnes of men he he hath a consequent will to condemne some This exposition my Aduersaries mislike either in their ignorance because they do not vnderstand it aright or for that they adhere to some part of Caluines error about Praedestination with which it cannot stand Wherefore to instruct their ignorance in this point and to deliuer them or at least others
seemeth to yeeld me for he saith that the rule must be easie White pag. 10. and plaine to all sorts of men learned and vnlearned to wit which vse the meanes and are diligent in attending to it and be enlightened with the Spirit of God to all such saith he it is plaine be they neuer so vnlearned to the rest it is not Neither is it saith he a necessary condition of the rule so to be not because it is obscure at any time but for that sometimes men haue not eyes to see into it c. This which he hath said of being enlightened with the spirit had need to be declared If he meane that one must be first endued with faith and in that sence lightned with the Spirit before he can vnderstand the determinate sence and meaning of that which is appointed by God to be the ordinary rule and meanes to instruct men in faith then it is false that to be enlightened with the Spirit is required as a necessary condition for so one must be supposed to haue faith before he can by the ordinary meanes be first instructed in faith so the ordinary meanes were needlesse for the end to which it was appointed For what need were there of an outward ordinary meanes to instruct men first in faith when they are already supposed to be by the spirit sufficiently enlightned with faith If he meane onely that the Spirit of God must assist and concur with mans vnderstanding in a speciall manner to enable the vnderstanding to apprehend the instruction propounded by the meanes and to make it yeeld assent of faith so I shall not striue with him as hauing in * Introd q. 6. the Introduction affirmed as much Onely I would haue him note FIRST that it is not the Protestants spirit whose illumination is required to true faith as o Ibid. there I haue shewed SECONDLY that the true Spirit of God whose assistance is necessary is ready through the merits of our Sauiour Christ to assist all men sufficiently to the attaining of the truth and that no man who hath receiued exciting grace to moue him to seeke find and attend vnto the ordinary rule and meanes appointed by God for mens instruction in matters of faith need feare want of necessary assistance of Gods Spirit to concurre with him but rather had need to feare least himselfe be wanting to the gracious assistance of Gods Spirit in being negligent to concurre with it so much as he may and ought and least in steed of following Gods Spirit he suffers himselfe to be misled with the spirit of Sathan transfiguring himselfe into an Angell of light whose propertie is to withdraw men from the secure ordinary meanes of the doctrine of the Church to follow priuate instincts so coloured with seeming sentences of Scripture as though they were the very instincts of the holy Ghost The third propertie to wit vniuersality is meant that the rule and meanes doth extend it selfe to all points of faith so far as it is or may be necessary to saluation In which sence I do not perceiue my Aduersaries to gainesay Onely the question is WHETHER and HOW all points of faith be necessary to saluation The which question I haue resolued in the Introduction and in the fourth Chapter where I do determine all points of faith to be necessary to be beleeued explicitè or implicitè of all sorts and that none is indifferent or such as may be lawfully misbeleeued especially obstinately at any time by any persons and that although all be not necessary to be knowne at all times expresly by all persons yet they are or may be necessary so to be knowne at least at sometimes and by some persons in the Church and consequently there must be an vniuersall ordinary rule and meanes sufficient to instruct and to resolue all sorts of men in all points of faith at such times and in such sort as need shall require thereby to hinder men from misbeleeuing any and which may tell them determinately when controuersies arise whether this or that point be necessary to be knowne and beleeued expresly by all or onely some of the Church and by whom Besides these three properties of the rule and meanes White pag. 10. M. White would haue other two But either they are not necessary or else they be sufficiently included in these which I haue set downe For if the rule bee knowne to be infallible it little skilleth to our present purpose whether there be any higher rule whereupon it doth depend or no or whether the case which is to be ruled by it concerne the thing it selfe which is assigned for the rule or some other thing for where infallibility is partiality need not be feared neither need one seeke a higher rule when he knoweth the rule which he hath to be infallible 1 MY Aduersaries last conclusion was that the rule of faith must haue three properties 1 To be infallible that shall not deceiue vs. 2 Easie to be vnderstood of all sorts of men learned and vnlearned 3 Vniuersall to shew what is the truth in all points Touching my answer hereto he sayes foure thing FIRST that I grant these three properties to be required in the Rule in some sence The first that it must be infallible and the last that it must be vniuersall I grant simply without any limitation and this is true SECONDLY touching the second condition of being easie he expounds himselfe that he meanes so easie that without miraculous illumination or extraordinary and excessiue difficulty any sort of men may vnderstand the meaning of it and sayes M. White seemes also to yeeld him this The which I did in these words The rule is easie and plaine to all sorts of men learned and vnlearned that vse the meanes and are diligent in attending it and be inlightned by the Spirit of God to such it is plaine be they neuer so vnlearned to the rest it is not nether is it a necessary condition of the rule so to be not because it selfe is obscure at any time but for that sometimes men haue not eyes for want of diligence or Gods illumination to see into it for all meanes and rules are vaine vnles God giue eyes to see This exposition wherby I declared in what sence the rule must be vnderstood to be easie he distinguishes and sayes If I meane no more but that the Spirit of God must helpe our vnderstanding in a speciall manner to enable it to apprehend and yeeld to that which the rule propounds he will not contend with me But if my meaning be that a man must first haue faith and in that sence be inlightned before he can vnderstand the meaning of the rule then he sayes my saying is false and sets downe a proposition against it that to be endued with faith is not required as a necessary condition to the easines of the rule which is a needlesse limitation For first I mentioned not
infallible rule of faith as it is also the ordinary sufficient meanes ordained by God to breed faith in men My aduersaryes for their better aduantage take the question in the first sense whereas they ought to take it in the second sense in regard I so take it in the fift Chapter vnto which this Chapter hath reference For whereas in the foure first Chapters I had set downe for a certaine ground that one infallible entire faith was necessary to saluation in the first Chapter I proued that God had ordained some rule and meanes that is some such rule as was also a meanes sufficient to breed this one infallible entire faith in all sorts of men yea quantum ex se in all men In the sixt Chapter I set downe certaine conditions of this rule and meanes and consequently when in this seuenth Chapter I deny Scripture alone to be the rule I must needes meane that it is not the rule which is also a sufficient ordinary meanes of which all my speech went before Now in this true sense my aduersaries do not gainesay but conuicted by the euidence of truth yeeld that Scripture alone is not the rule taking the rule as it signifieth that which is so a rule as it is also the ordinary sufficient meanes to breed faith in men as here I take it The Scripture it selfe saith M. Wootton is a rule Wootton p. 66. or meanes made effectuall to some by reading without any outward helpe of man but this is not the ordinary course that God hath appointed for the instruction of the people Pag. 89. in the knowledge of his truth therefore if we say at any time Scripture alone is the rule of faith by ALONE we seuer it from the traditions and authoritie of men not from their Ministry and ascribe sufficiently vnto it in respect of the matter to be beleeued not simply of the meanes to bring men to beleeue And againe we require besides onely expresse wordes of Scripture the Ministry and industry of man together and conclude points of doctrine out of that which is written in Scripture White pag. 23. M. White although he seeme to make the doctrine it selfe of Scripture to be the rule the letter of the original or translation to be a meanes which like a vessell presenteth vnto vs this rule yet to the purpose of the question in my sense he granteth that the Ministry is the ordinary meanes Pag. 116. whereby we may learne the faith of Christ and that no man can of himselfe attaine the knowledge thereof but as the Church teacheth him excepting some extraordinary cases Whereby I euidently conclude that both M. Wootton and M. White yeeld to the principall conclusion of this Chapter to wit that Scripture alone whether taken for the originall or translation is not the rule of faith in such sense as I here speake of the rule of faith Idle therefore and impertinent is most of their long and tedious discourse vpon this Chapter which consequently I pretermit as vnworthie of any reply if any thing here brought by them and pretermitted by me seeme contrary to my conclusion it is such as is answered ordinarily by Catholicke Authors or such as these my aduersaries themselues if they wil not contradict this which is yeelded to by themselues ought to answer vnto as well as I. 1 HEre I must repeate my old complaint that I am forced to renew in euery question that falles out betweene vs that my aduersary omits and dissembles the whole substance of my writing and onely descants vpon some few remnants that he rends out here and there wisely foreseeing either that his cause would abide no triall or himselfe was not the man that was able to make the triall For though he could well enough translate and transcribe another man writing and patch it together when he had done to make a pamphlet yet the defence he must leaue to his Author being belike some student * A.D. Student in diuinitie as he professes himselfe that is proceeded no higher then translations and yet will serue the turne to beare the name of a Catholicke writer This abiect course which now adayes that side cleaues to as deuoutly as to their faith bewrayes the misery of their side to say no more and so I follow him whither the winde and the tide carrie me For he that rides a iade must take his owne pace or go afoote 2 First he sayes his Aduersaries either ignorantly or wilfully peruert the state of the question else they could haue had no colour to make so long discourse The which is no vnprofitable way when he cannot defend his question to picke a quarrel to the state And possible he hath learned it by poâ—ching in D. Stapletons bookes who in his time made good vse of this tricke But how was the question mistaken He saies his question was not whether Scripture be the rule of faith but whether Scripture alone be the rule and meanes to breed faith For the trial of this I must intreate the Reader to take knowledge how things stand betweene vs though I haue once or twise already vpon like occasions repeated it The Iesuite in his Treatise that I answered beginnes with certaine propositions which he sayes are to be supposed and set downe for certaine and assured grounds First that no man can be saued without the true faith Secondly that this faith is but one neither can men be saued in any other Thirdly that this faith must be infallible and certaine so that the beleeuer be fully perswaded of the truth thereof Fourthly that it must be whole and entire beleeuing rightly all points one as well as another Fifthly that God hath ordained a certaine rule or meane whereby all men learned and vnlearned may be instructed in this faith and infallibly taught WHAT is to be holden for the true faith and WHAT not Sixtly that this rule must haue three conditions First infallibility to be certaine without deceiuing vs. Secondly easines that it may be plainely knowne of all sorts of men Thirdly latitude that by it we may know absolutely all points needfull to be learned Then a In THE WAY §. 5. and in his printed treatise p. 17. concl 1. he proceeds to inquire what in particular is the thing which may be assigned to be this rule whereto he answers in foure conclusions the first whereof is this whereabout he now contends The Scripture alone especially as it is translated * In his printed copie it is Specially as it is by Protestants translated into the English tongue into the English tongue cannot he this rule This I denied in another conclusion opposite to it vsing the words of the publike articles of our Church The Scripture comprehended in the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament is the rule of faith so far that whatsoeuer is not read therein or cannot be proued thereby is not to be accepted as any point of
faith or needfull to be followed And so from that place to pag. 57 I disputed that the Scripture ALONE is the rule of faith that is to say That rule which my Aduersary in his fourth ground had said God had prouided whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently be instructed WHAT is to be holden for the true faith Now he complaines that the State is peruerted the question not being whether Scripture be the rule of faith but whether Scripture alone be the rule and meane ordained of God to breed all faith And he notes two points wherein it is peruerted First in that I so affirme and defend the Scripture to be the rule as if he and his sectaries excluded it from being the rule in any sort which he sayes they do not For they hold the Scripture as propounded by the Church to be part of it I answer that I knew well enough they confessed the Scripture to be part of the rule and the Diuine doctrine which is the whole rule to be some of it written But I knew also that they denied it to be the whole rule ioyning therewith vnwritten traditions and the Popes Decretals which they call Church authority I knew also they allowed it to be no part of the rule but as and in such sence as the Church of Rome should please to propound it and I saw his conclusion in termes denying the Scripture alone to be the rule whereby men may sufficiently be instructed WHAT the faith is therefore I disputed directly opposite to all this that the Scripture alone without traditions is the whole rule to shew vs WHAT is to be holden for faith and nothing but the Scripture this is close to the question For albeit he yeelds it to be the rule in a sort because as his Church propounds it it containes part of the rule yet he denies it to be that whole and entire rule that his conclusion inquires of and so is to be disputed against as well as if he denied it to be any part of the rule at all Againe he holds two things First affirmatiuely that the Scripture is one part of the rule then negatiuely that the Scripture alone is not all the rule Both these are contradictory to my assertion The Scripture alone is the rule My assertion therefore affirming what he denies and denying what he affirmes containes the true state of the question and his inuoluing the matter with all this cauilling tends onely to the couering of his doctrine the loathsome visage whereof he is ashamed should be seene 3 The second point wherein he sayes the question is peruerted is in that I take the rule of faith otherwise then he doth For whereas he by that word rule meanes such a rule as not onely is sufficient to REVEALE all diuine truths that are to be beleeued but also to BREED or produce in vs the faith whereby we beleeue them I he sayes vnderstand such a rule onely as is sufficient to reueale the diuine verities though it be not sufficient to breed in vs faith and assent thereunto And it is true that I vnderstand such a rule indeed the Church wherein I liue onely beleeuing the sufficiency of the Scripture to containe all the obiect of faith but not to enable vs to beleeue it or vnderstand it ordinarily without the ministry of the Church and other meanes But this peruerts not the question * The state of the question touching Scripture ALONâ— for about the meanes there is no question but the question is whether Scripture alone excluding all Church traditions and authority comprehend the whole obiect or matter of faith that is to say All that we are bound to know beleeue and doe for our saluation though it be granted that to breed or produce faith and knowledge of that which is in the Scripture the Ministry of the Church and the helpe of Gods Spirit and our owne industry must concurre For our Aduersaries deny this and hold their runagate traditions and Church authority to be necessary not onely for the expounding and confirming to vs that which is in the Scripture if any one chance to deny it or not to see it but for the supplying of infinite articles of faith which are no waies at all comprised in the Scripture but vpon the said authority are to be receiued as well as that which is reuealed in the Scripture The Iesuite speakes as if he thought his Church authority to consist more in breeding faith and leading men to beleeue what is written then in adding any thing to the measure of the diuine verities contained in the Scripture and indeed sometime there be of his side that will plainely say so He that writ the defence of the Censure a Def. of the Cens pag. 141. NOTE THIS and inquire whether all Papists will stand to it sayes it is to be noted that the question betweene vs and the Protestants is of EXPRESSE SCRIPTVRE ONELY and not of any far fet place which by interpretation may be applied to a controuersie For this contention began betweene vs vpon this occasion that when we alledged diuers weighty places and reasons out of the Scripture for proofe of inuocation of Saints praier for the dead Purgatory and some other controuersies our aduersaries reiected them for that they did not plainely and expresly decide the matter Whereupon came this question whether all matters of beleefe are plainely and expresly in Scripture or not which they affirme and we deny And this he sayes is is the true state of the question Gretser b Defens Bellar tom 1. l. 4. c. 4. p. 1598. sayes These things may be proued by Scripture but not sufficiently not effectually by Scripture alone without tradition but onely probably The which if my aduersary and his Church did hold constantly and in good earnest I would confesse I had peruerted the state of the question But they do not but hold many things belonging to faith to be wanting and no way at all neither openly nor expresly nor consequently contained in the Scripture Dominicus Bannes c D. Dann 22. Tho. p. 302. All things which pertaine to Catholicke faith are not contained in the Canonicall books either manifestly or obscurely nor all those things which Christ and his Apostles taught and ordained for the instructing of his Church and confirming of the faith were committed to the holy Scriptures and the contrary is open heresie Melchior Canus d Can. loc p. 151 There are many things belonging to the doctrine and faith of Christians which are contained in the sacred Scriptures neither manifestly nor obscurely Cardinall Hosius e Hos confess Polon p. 383. The greater part of the Gospell by a great deale is come to vs by tradition very little of it being written in the Scripture Peresius f Peres de tradit p. 4. Tradition is taken so that it is distinguisht against the doctrine which is found in the Canonicall bookes of the
apparant I yeelded not his conclusion in the whole sence but onely in a part For view my words The Ministerie of the Church is the ordinary meanes whereby we may learne the faith of Christ And no man can of himselfe attaine to the knowledge thereof but as the Church teaches him except it be in some extraordinary cases How will my Iesuite conclude froÌ„ hence that therefore I yeeld his conclusion as it is vnderstood the second way which way I haue shewed immediately before both his Church and himselfe vnderstand it Doth he that saies the kings Iustices are tâ—â— ordinary meanes whereby to learne the matter of ciuill obedience and that no subiect can ordinarily attaine to the knowledge of the law vnlesse some body publish it yeeld therfore that the law alone is not the rule of the said obedience and subiection prescribing the measure and qualitie thereof but the Iustices also and such as acquaint vs with the law are part of the rule yea the greater and more certaine part No man will say so when all men see the Magistrate to be but the executioner and minister of the law to teach publish and execute that which is in the law it selfe and the Booke of the law to containe the whole and entire obiect of obedience that no subiect is bound to any obedience or to the doing of any thing whatsoeuer the Magistrate might happen to impose vpon him but that onely which is contained in the law either expressely or thence to be gathered by true consequence And so my Iesuits vaunt of our yeelding and impertinent discourses relishes but of the Souldier that created him and his vaunting Order though his putting vs ouer to his other Catholicke Authors be scarse souldier-like but tastes more of the Creeple He vses this often and I confesse it is a good short cutte home-wardes if a man be empty but it sinkes him that vses it into the lowest bottome of contempt to giue the onset with conclusions and principles and then to maintaine them with boasting and ignorance If we were not well acquainted with this transparent cowardlinesse in our busiest Aduersaries it would leauen the most setled patience that is among vs. CHAP. XXVIII Touching our English translations of the Bible Their sinceritie and infalliblenesse 2. How the vnlearned know them to be sincere The new Translation lately set foorth by the Kings authority defended Momus in his humor 4. The subordination of means Pag. 179. A. D. § 1. That English translations of Scripture are not infallible concerning my first reason it is to be obserued that I do not deny the true Scriptures either in the originall or in the translation to be infallible but onely I proue the ordinary English translations which ordinarily Protestants call the Scriptures not to be infallible nor consequently to be Wootton pag. 68. as some make them the onely sufficient rule and means to breed faith M. Wootton asketh what English Protestant euer affirmed that they were infallible or tooke them for the rule To this I reply first that I could wish these his questions could not be answered with affirming that many thousand poore soules that haue and can onely reade English Bibles think the texts which they reade in theÌ„ to be Gods word and consequently the infallible truth and so take them for a rule of their faith that wbat they finde written there they most firmly beleeue what they finde not there they will not beleeue Secondly if the English translation be not accounted infallible nor the rule of faith by some Protestants I aske first what M. White meaneth to say White pag. 25. the Scripture translated into English is infallibly true in respect of the matter Secondly I aske what infallible rule and meanes haue at least vnlearned Protestants whereupon to build their faith It cannot be said that the truth of the reuealed doctrine in it selfe is their rule For this is the thing that should be beleeued and is not the rule and meanes whereby men are to be directed to attain beliefe The first Hebrew or Greeke originall text immediatly written by the holy writers cannot be their rule For first where is this to be found or how shall they be sure if they find it that it is the very authenticall or originall and not a transumpt Or if a transumpt may also serue so that it be incorrupt how shall they know infallibly secluding Church-authoritie that that copie which they haue is incorrupt when they neuer saw the first authenticall nor euer did or are able to compare them together Finally suppose they had a copie well agreeing with the originall what nearer were they attaining faith by it since they cannot vnderstand it White pag. 25. M White is so farre from disclaiming from English translations as M. Wotton doth that he will needs defend them to be infallible in the matter contained in them in so much that with a bold brazen face he saith Martin cannot giue one instance of the sence corrupted Pag. 26. And although he seeme to leaue himselfe a starting hole by saying that he doth not defend tbis or that mans edition but the Scriptures wel and faithfully translated accounting it sufficient that there be some translations faithfull and agreeing with the originall in the Church Ibid. yet presently after he taketh vpon him to defend the varieties of translations saying that this varietie hath bene in words and stile and not in any materiall point of the sence Now how false this bold and blind answer is the Reader may easily perceiue if he will reade not onely M. Gregory Martins discouerie but also M. Reynolds refutation of M. Whitaker and the Grounds of the new Religion which bookes neither are or can so be answered by M. Fulke and his fellow Protestants to helpe him but still it wil be iustified and made plaine that not onely one but many instances may be giuen of the sence corrupted The which is not onely proued by our Diuines but also confessed by Protestants themselues One of which said Broughtons epistle to the Lords of the Councell Carlile in his booke that Christ went not downe into hell that the English Bible was full of errors And what errors Onely in stile or words Nay M. Carlile saith that our English Translators in many places detort the Scriptures from the right sence and that they haue corrupted and depraued the sence obscured the truth deceiued the ignorant Which their confession if it were not also acknowledged for truth by others what need were there after so many varieties of translations that with so much cost care and scandal to the Protestant cause they must needs haue order by publik authority to coine a new translatioÌ„ of the Bible different froÌ„ all English translatioÌ„s that haue bin before the which also when it cometh forth will not be of infallible authoritie more then the former neither can at least vnlearned men be infallibly assured that it
containeth no materiall error For I would faine know how they who neither haue the authenticall originall or if they had cannot reade and much lesse vnderstand and compare the translation with it neither do admit infallible authoritie in the Church to assure them can be infallibly assured that the translation doth not containe any substantiall error To this M. White answereth White pag. 25. that we know this by the same infallible meanes wherby we know other articles of beliefe namely by the light of the doctrine translated the testimony of the Spirit the ministery of the word the rules of are the knowledge of tongues and such like Here is a faire flourish of words but answer me good M. White directly to the point Are all of these ioyntly or euery one seuerally or onely some of these necessary sufficient to breed in vs infallible assurance of an article of faith All are not necessary For else how shall poore vnlearned men do who want rules of art knowledge of tongues and such like Euery one seuerally is not sufficient For neither knowledge of tongues rules of art nor the Protestant ministery are of themselues infallible and consequently cannot be of themselues sufficient to breed such infallible assurance in vs as is requisite in an article of faith Well then it remaineth that onely some of these to wit the light of doctrine translated and the testimonie of the Spirit are euen according to the ordinary course the only necessary and of themselues the sole sufficient meanes to breed this assurance but this not For then it wold follow that euery one learned and vnlearned that had the Spirit of God by the onely light of the doctrine it self without any other help should infallibly vnderstand the Greeke and Hebrew text either read by themselues or pronounced by a Minister which is most false and yet that it followeth wel is apparent because true doctrine shineth as wel yea better if M. White say true in the Originall White pag. 26. then in the English Translations We saith M. White know the diuine doctrine to be one and the same Pag. 27. immediatly in the Originall more obscurely in the Translations and God as the same M. White saith directeth the children of light by the holy Ghost who openeth their hearts that they know his voice from all others and that the light of his truth may shine vnto them Now if the light of the diuine doctrine do shine as well and better in the Hebrew and Greeke text then in the English translations and that all which be children of light haue the eies of their heart so opened as they can discerne Gods voice froÌ„ all others and that the light of his truth shineth vnto theÌ„ what need is there then of any other either priuate or publick meanes to open their eies to see this light when the holy Ghost doth sufficiently open them Or if he say the holy Ghost doth not open them sufficiently without othâ—r meanes then the light of the doctrine and the testimony of the Spirit are not the onely necessary and alone sufficient meanes to assure vs infallibly of any article of faith namely that this or that means must be assigned sufficient to breed in vs infallible assuraÌ„ce which it self cannot do vnles it selfe be and be knowne or at least may be knowne to be infallible in it selfe and infallibly to open and direct our eyes to the seeing of the infallible truth which fallible ministery of meÌ„ fallible rules of art fallible knowledge of tongs or such like infallibly do not 1 HIs reason why the Scriptures traÌ„slated into English caÌ„not be the rule of faith is because our translations are full of errors Wherby he says his mind is not to deny the true Scripture in the originall or in the translation to be infallible but only the ordinary English translations My a THE WAY §. 5. nu 2 §. 6. nu 2. 4. 8. answer was the same that D. Stapleton b Relect. pag. 525. makes for the vulgar Latin that in respect of the words onely there might be some error but in respect of the sence there is none For if the words of the traÌ„slation be not so perfect as they might yet that hinders not the truth of the matter nor the integritie of the sence For the vulgar Latin canonized by c Sess 4. the Trent Councell and d In those words J do not denie the true Scripture either in the Originall or in the Translation to be infallible granted by the Iesuite himselfe to be infallible is not free from error and corruption in words Mariana e Tract pro edit vulg Multa superius in Hebraicis Graecis codicibus vtti esse ostendimus multae mendacia in rebus minutis eorum pars aliquae non exigua in nostra editione vulgata extat c. 21. pag. 103. says There be many corruptions in the Hebrew and Greeke bookes which are the originall and many lies in small matters no small part whereof is also in the vulgar It may safely therfore be yeelded that our English translations as all other translations in the world whatsoeuer are not infallible nor free from all errors in words and yet the sence and matter of the Scripture translated which is the rule be stil maintained to be infallible This my answer yeelding such a kind of erroniousnes in words my aduersary obiects to M. Wotton who belike in his answer to this argument demanding what English Protestant euer affirmed that our translations were infallible or tooke them for the rule He replies secondly what means M. White then to say the Scripture translated into English is infallibly true in respect of the matter M. White answers that his meaning in so saying was to accord with M. Wotton by distinguishing betweene the words and the contents of the translations M. Wotton denying the words to be the rule and I affirming the matter contained in the words so to be What contradiction is this when he grants our translatioÌ„s as al humane means are to be subiect to error in one sence and I deny them to be subiect in another 2 This my assertion that our English translations as touching the matter contained in them are infallible howsoeuer there be varietie among them in words stile he entertaines after his accustomed maner with some passioÌ„ For expouÌ„ding my self that I wold not maintain this or that mans editioÌ„ but the Scriptures wel and faithfully translated in such maner as our Church allows them he cals this a starting hole neuer remeÌ„bring how himself wil not defend this or that edition in his own Church but wil retire to those editions that are approued as also the primitiue Church permitted varietie of translations and yet followed the purest as neare as it could iudge of theÌ„ for the time being I wil therfore say it again that OVR ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS AS TOVCHING THE MATTER CONTAINED THEREIN ARE INFALLIBLE AND
words seeming plaine are to be vnderstood properly as they sound and when they are to be taken in a figuratiue or improper sence This say I is not to be learned sufficiently in the bare letter of Scripture alone but is to be learned of the Church according to that worthy saying of Vincentius Lyrinensis Vincent Lyr. cont haeres c. 2. Because all men do not take the holy Scripture for the height of it in one and the same sence but diuers men interpret the sayings of it diuersly in so much that almost so many different sences may seeme possible to be drawne from it as there are diuers men c. Therefore it is very necessarie that the line of Propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of Ecclesiasticall and Catholicke sence True it is that by other probable meanes viz. rules of art knowledge of tongues obseruation of circumstances conference of places c. one but not euery lay-man woman and childe euen of M Wotton and M. Whites owne parish may probably finde out when the words are and when they are not to be vnderstood properly but infallibly in such sort as to build thereupon infallible assent of faith one cannot without infallible interpretation had either immediatly by reuelation of the Spirit which is not ordinarily to be expected or by infallible authoritie of the Church True it is also that ordinarily Diuines hold it for a certaine rule that words of Scripture are to be vnderstood properly as they sound vnlesse to auoide some absurditie we be compelled to interprete by a figure But when such an absurditie occurreth that ought to compell vs to interprete plaine words of Scripture by a figure and when not although reason it selfe may probably know which probable knowledge may suffice for direction of manners yet infallibly in such sort as is required to the assent of faith reason alone not assisted by Church authoritie cannot at the least alwayes tell sith many things may seeme absurd to our priuate sence and reason which in truth are not absurd as in the mystery of the blessed Trinitie may plainly appeare and contrariwise many things may seeme in reason not absurd which in true Diuinitie are absurd and most false 1 HIs second reason against the Scriptures being the rule of faith was their obscuritie because they faile in the second condition of the rule being of themselues alone so obscure and vnknowne both to the vnlearned and learned that no man can thereby alone be sufficiently directed This reason was handled § 7 and 8. where I answered the argument whereby he prosecuted it and euery word also that he replies here which makes me to wonder with what conscience he followes his cause when that he sayes here being answered he shrinks from replying and onely repeates his old argument againe and yet intitles his booke a Reply when he replies nothing but conceales all from his Reader that I answered neuerthelesse that he sayes I will answer againe 2 First he tels in what sence he holds the Scripture to be obscure and how farre forth Not that it cannot by any meanes be vnderstood or that it is any imperfection in the Scripture to be obscure but the perfection rather the onely thing he goes about to proue being that de facto it is obscure or at the least not so easie as the ordinary rule of faith ought to be which is denied and confuted not denying some parts to be obscure as many prophecies and mysteries therein nor affirming any of it to be so effectuall to our vnderstanding that without the motion of Gods Spirit and vse of the meanes euery man can effectually vse it to his saluation for I neuer denied the requisite condition of Gods grace and the Churches teaching and our owne endeuour to open our vnderstanding euen in the plainest Scripture that is but I onely affirme all things concerning faith and good life needfull to be knowne to be so plainly set downe therein that the vnlearnedst man aliue vsing the meanes which is not the Church-authoritie intended by my aduersary and being enlightned with Gods Spirit may sufficiently vnderstand them to his saluation which is enough to make it a rule perfect entire and as easie as is possible for a rule to be for the finding out and deciding whatsoeuer matter belongs to faith For howsoeuer some things in the Scripture the knowledge whereof is not simply necessary to saluation be very obscure and doubtfull yet the whole rule of our faith needfull to all men is set downe so plainly that it may be vnderstood of all men allowing them some eleuation and onely supposing them to haue the light of grace and to take that paines in searching that is ordinarily required in the vse of any rule and in the execution of any meanes whatsoeuer It seemes my aduersarie would conclude from hence that therefore I grant Scripture alone not to be so easie as the rule of faith ought to be because I require so many euen outward meanes and helpes for the vnderstanding thereof beside the helpe of Gods Spirit within vs. But he is deceiued and deceiues his Reader for I expounded my selfe that it is not necessarie the rule be so easie and effectuall that no helpe shall be needfull for the applying it to our conscience but the perfection and easinesse of it stands in this that a man vsing diligence and eleuated by grace from his naturall ignorance shall finde therein absolutely and plainly all things whatsoeuer he is bound to know and beleeue and needs not that the Church by her authoritie and traditions should adde any thing to it that is not contained in it And that this condition of vsing meanes and outward helpes takes not away the reason of a rule he must confesse by his owne principles for let his Church-teaching and authoritie his owne Helena be the rule yet afore any man can determinately know it or vnderstand and yeeld to it he must I hope haue the grace of the Spirit and seeke it out and diligently attend what it teaches him which is as much as we require for the vnderstanding of the Scriptures This therefore is a vaste partialitie in my Iesuite that he will conclude a thing cannot be a sufficient rule or meanes that requires the helpe of grace and a mans owne industrie in the applying it when themselues holding their Church to be the rule yet confesse that no man can heare the voice thereof not vnderstand nor yeeld assent to it without the very same meanes that we require for the vnderstanding of the Scriptures What voice what complaint what querimonie shall we vtter against this peruersnesse against this spirit of contradiction But my aduersarie sayes that among these outward meanes and helpes which M. White requires to the vnderstanding of the Scripture besides the Spirit of God there must be one an outward meanes which is * There is no such outward infalible means in this life
Luther and the Reformers put away yet the foundation remained and the Scripture was preserued and the whole rule of faith and in the agonies and conflicts of their conscience they defended the truth of these things and by repentance cast away their damnable errors and all such euen in the middest of the Papacy were outward professors and members of our Church yea God stirred vp among the persecutors themselues and such as liued it communion with them many that gaue witnesse to the truth by teaching and deliuering the seuerall articles thereof some one and some another among their heresies and corruptions And thus we say our religion also euery parcell of it stood in the middest of the Papacy and when the Church was most defaced For first some persons still perseuered in holding and professing it entirely in regard of the substance for though euery one of them be proued to haue holden some error withall as possible Wickliffe or the Waldenses did that is no preiudice to the Church 2. Many ordinary Doctors and learned men in the Church of Rome at all times saw the abuses and errors that crept in and speaking against them noted and branded them 3. Few learned men that liued in the communion of the Church of Rome but they held one point or other of the substance of truth yea many things belonging to the foundation whereupon it is that I say so often THERE IS NOTHING WHEREIN WE DISSENT FROM THE PAPISTS BVT WE CAN SHEW IT TAVGHT AND DELIVERED IN THE BOOKES OF ANCIENT PAPISTS THEMSELVES which proues vnanswerably that the things now broached by the Trent Councell and the Iesuites were not the certen doctrine of those times but were successiuely aduanced by the policy of Satan the faction of his instruments alwaies innouating and adulterating the truth in some part or other thereof CHAP XL. Againe touching the visiblenesse of the Church and in what sence we say it was inuisible Many things innouated in the Church of Rome The complaints of Vbertine and Ierome of Ferrara 2. 3. All the Protestants faith was preserued in the middest of the Church of Rome 6. A iest of the Terynthians 7. What religion hath bred desperation A.D. Note fourthly Pag. 246. Math. 5. v. 15. Ibid. v. 14. that since God hath ordained his Church to be of such nature that like light not hid vnder a bushell but put vpon a candlesticke it cannot but shine before men in manner aforesaid and that like a citie built on a mountaine it cannot be hid and this partly for his owne honour and for the good of soules not onely of those which are already faithfull but of his part for the generall good of the whole world hence appeareth that not onely the Church in euery seuerall age could not but be visible to men liuing in some age but also partly by Gods prouidence partly by humane diligence some records of Histories could not morally speaking but be set out either by friends or by enemies as they haue bene hitherto in like and lesse matters and being set out they could not but be still extant in such sort as not onely it may appeare to posterity that the Church hath bene alwaies but also that at least some eminent members of it may be assigned in all precedent ages One chiefe vse of which Historiesis that for the confirmation of our faith and hope we may plainely see those Prophecies and promises of Scripture which concerne the continuance of the Church to haue bene hitherto fulfilled and that when question at any time shall be made which company of visible professors of the Christian faith are the true Church by â—â—lpe of these Histories the question may be more easily decided in that a continuall line all descent being shewed of one company from Christs time hitherto the like whereof cannot be shewed of others one that hath learned by the Scriptures that the true Church of Christ was to continue alwaies and that visible in such sort as I haue shewed might straightwaies coÌ„clude that that onely company which by Histories is shewed thus to haue continued is the true Church and that the other which could not by Histories shew such a visible continuance is not the true Church In what sense the Protestants say the Church was sometimes inuisible 1 Stil the Iesuit reasons as if we held the Church for many ages together to haue bene simply inuisible that no man could tell where it was whereas we onely hold that comparatiuely it is not visible at one time in such sort and with such purity and liberty from corruption as it is at another That is to say it doth not visibly professe the whole truth without mixture of corruption nor retaine the outward state in such purity and liberty of profession and Ecclesiasticall gouernement as needes no reformation but is at sometimes oppressed with persecution and intangled with heresie breeding among the members that albeit the substance of truth remaine and many retaine it with effect yet a particular company professing and exercizing the same faith and goernement intirely without corruption in such manner as at other sometimes it doth cannot be found the small persecuted and oppressed company may also be the soundest members of the Church and the articles of religion most opposed may be the truth and the chiefe Pastours and greatest multitude that are most followed beleeued may be the followers and army of Antichrist The state of all the Church finally throughout the world may be so corrupted that a pure Church such as the primitiue Church was or such as the Church should be cannot be seene This is that we meane when we hold the Churches inuisiblenesse whereby it is easie to see that what the Iesuite notes is of no force against vs. For it shall be granted that Almighty God partly for his owne glory and partly for the good of soules hath ordained his Church to be a light that cannot but shine and a city that cannot be hid and therefore it must needs be visible in euery age and such as by history may be made apparant and some eminent members thereof in euery age may be assigned But hence it doth not follow that it shall alway be visible in one and the same state or the members thereof eminently and apparantly shall professe the faith in the same degree of perfection and liberty but onely that all the faith of Christ shall be visibly professed therein for the Church is compared to a light not because it is perpetually visible in one state for lightes haue their Eclipses and blind men see them nor when they shine but because at some time it is exceeding visible in the best state and at all times it hath in it in some degrees or other the light of all truth and glory whereby the elect are guided to God I loue not to repeate that I haue said already till I see it answered and therefore if the Reader desire further
satisfaction he may repairâ— to that I writ And wheras the Iesuite notes that the true Church being a light and visible it cannot be but Gods prouidence and humane diligence would prouide some record of histories to find it this is true and shall be yeelded him and let our reformed Churches of the Protetestants neuer be counted part of the Catholicke Church if all Ecclesiasticall records in the world beginning with the new Testament and so descending by the writings of the ancient Fathers till you come to the very times of Luther do not shew the articles of their faith to haue bene professed in the Church of Rome as I haue often said its selfe and that which we haue cast off and wherein the Iesuites and wee differ this day to be no part of the ancient faith but late innouations brought in by faction that it was lawfull for vs to put them away and reduce things to the first antiquity And this I say not to ground our faith on humane reports but to testifie that I grant such prouidence of God for the confirming our faith though if such Histories were wanting as they are not it should not moue vs so long as we haue the Scriptures to iustifie our doctrine wherewith whatsoeuer consents is the truth whether Histories which are but a humane testimony and vnable to authorize or support faith mention the succession thereof or not But when my aduersary will needs haue it that one chiefe vse of History is to shew the continuance of the Church that seeing thereby this continuance we might know it to be the Church of God and not finding it we might know thereby that it is not the Church I will not striue with him but acknowledge the prouidence of God and industry of man who hath left the records of History to confirme our faith and freely grant our religion to be false if the continuall descent thereof from Christ cannot by such record be shewed Wherein we are so resolute that next the euidence of the sacred Scripture this is our greatest motiue against the Trentisme and Iesuitisme of the now Church of Rome that by all histories and writings of record we find it to be an innouation against the ancient religion and a rabble of heresies from time to time added and brought in to that which in the beginning was professed in the Church of God and if any man be so inamoured of Rome as to imagine that part of the religion thereof which we haue forsaken as the Supremacy Transubstantiation Traditions Latine seruice and the rest to be come in a continuall lineall descent from Christ downe through all ages to these times he will finde himselfe deceiued when he makes the triall or if he be so vnlearned that he cannot make this triall or so besotted with the conceite of Papistry that he will not or so oppressed with the craft of such as this Repliar is that he cares not yet it satisfies me and giues my soule contentment against the day of my death that reading all manner of ancient records Councels Fathers Church Histories Greeke and Latine though I haue not read all I find Papistry to be none of the ancient religion vniformely imbraced in the Church but an heresie brought in by the packing and ambitious policy of some growing as a Leprosie successiuely one peece after another to it And reading the later Diuines and Schoolemen that writ since the 11 age I finde as in the former the whole substance of the Protestants saith deliuered but touching the rest wherein the Church of Rome and we dissent and which we haue put away as the Masse Transubstantiation Purgatory Images Freewill Merits Supremacy c I finde no vnitie or certainety among them but all things inuolued with contradictions and vncertainety that it is easie to discerne the said points to be no parcell of the ancient Catholicke Apostolicke faith It is an ancient complaint of a Vbertin de Casal tract de 7. stat eccl c. 3. p. 65. The same thing touching the Schoolmen and Diuines of the Church of Rome is reported and complained of by Sauanarola a Friar liuing sometime in Florence Multi hodiernis temporibus qui volunt videri legis Doctores ac defensores conuersi sunt in vaniloqutum obsenratum est insipiens cor eorum Dicentes enim se esse sapientes stulti facti sunt quia relicta sacrarum literarum simplicitate ad Gentilitatem se penitus conuerterunt adulterantes verbum Dei impleuerunt chartas superbissimis obscuritatibus vanissimisque verborum ornatibus ac stulta apud Deum sapientia pompaque rhethoricorum verborum Deo odiosa nec non infinitis quaestionibus inexplicabilibus ac inutilibus quae mergunt homines in interitum audientesque subuertunt in vestimentis ouium volentes videri fidei defensores factè sunt populo Dei lupi rapaces Dicunt enim se philosophiae operam dare vt melius sacras scripturas quas nunquam legere volunt intelligant meliusque veritatem Dei fidemque defendant Sed reuera quaerunt quae sua sunt non quae Jesu Christi semper addiscentes vt dicit Apostolus nunquam ad veritatis scientiam pâ—ruenientes Qui dixerunt ait Propheta linguam nostram magnificabimus labia nostra à nobis sunt Quis noster dominus est Et tantum hic morbus increuit vt Ecclesiae Praelatos Presbyteros clericos Religiosos ac Seculares totumque populum Christianum tabefecerit Adeo autem inueteratus est vt non solùm glorientur Christiani tumenti animo de Gentilium literisextollant semtipsos sed quod peius est Paganorum scientias qui in vanitate sensus sui ambulantes nihil putabant verum nisi esset inflaium verborum compositione ornatorum non verentur praepouere scientiae Dei à quo est omnium scientia quilinguas mutorum aperit facitque disertas Et multi hodiè in tantam vâ—sâ—â—iam blasphemiamque prorumpunt vt sacras Scripturas rugato naso subsannantes ita despiciant irrideant vt èarum sectatores putent pro nihilo habendos Adeo enim Princeps huius seculi excaecauit eos vt tanquam mente capti nihil seiant se omnium rerum sapientiam apprehendisse arbitrentur Taceo de muliis qui cultum Dei fidemque abnegarunt Hicron Sauanarol de ord scient l. 3. subsiti pag. 13 edit Venet. apud Aurel Pincium an 1534. Vbertin a Carthusian touching the Friars and Schoolemen that by mingling Paganish errors with the principles of faith they had blowne away the truth of the Gospell and he sayes The falling star that had the key giuen him to open the bottomles pit was certaine eminent learned and later religious men falling into earthly desires and the curious sciences of Pagans and into diuers sectes They had great witts to open and extoll the doctrine of Aristotle and Auerroes and studying in a manner nothing else they deuised deepe and gulfelicke opinions
from the damnable doctrines thereof albeit they were corrupted with some lesser errors whereof they repented at their death Secondly some openly refused those damnable doctrines and suffered for the same Thirdly some resisted the Papacy as it grew on and noted the abuses thereof and neuer ceased to complaine and call for reformation Fourthly many that were ordinary Pastors and Bishops in the Church of Rome though poysoned with damnable heresies yet still professed the substance of faith and repented them in diuers things and maintained the Scripture to be the word of God The which things do sufficiently vphold the succession of our doctrine though Lombard and Thomas and Gerson and Occham and such as they were be said to be some of the persons in whom it succeeded by reason the rest which they held against vs appeares by the Scriptures and writings of the Apostolicke Church to haue bene their owne inuentions This plainely shewes who were the Nullus and Nemoes that held the Protestants religion when they did all this some in a higher and some in a lower degree according to the measure of their knowledge and meanes that they had whom the Pope and his Clergy persecuted and condemned for heretickes though they were the best and soundest part of the Church in regard of which persecution restraining them that the truth might not be suffered openly in the congregations which were all surprised by Antichrist we call them the inuisible Church that was not seene to enioy religion and discipline in the liberty puritie and perspicuitie that we now do and whom the wicked vnbeleeuers of the world could not discerne or obserue by reason their eyes were blinded that they should not behold the truth I admonish the Replyar hereafter to take notice of this and not to reply vpon an opinion of his owne making least forging that which no man holds and then so Paedant like squirting at it his owne head proue a hiue for Platoes Ideas and the caue where Chymaera nestles himselfe Pag. 247. A. D. If they could make solide answer to this argument they would neuer seeke for such shifts but being not able soundly to answer it nor yet willing to acknowledge themselues to be conuinced by it desperate obstinacy and obstinate desperation hath driuen them to this bad miserable ridiculous and desperate shift the which if it were not a bad shift Aug. contra Gâ—udentium l. 3. c. 1. S. Augustine could not well haue vrged the Donatists as he did saying If yours be the Catholicke Church shew it to stretch out the boughs of it which abundance of plentifull increase ouer the whole earth For by this shift they might easily haue answered that it did not follow that their Church was not the true Church because they could not shew it to extend it selfe ouer the earth because it might be inuisible If this were not a miserable shift the same S. Augustine could not well haue assigned it as a note proper to heretickes as he did saying A cleare and manifest authority of the Church being appointed ouer the whole orbe of the earth Christ our Sauiour doth consequently admonish his Disciples and all the faithfull who will beleeue in him that they beleeue not scismaticks or heretickes for euery scisme and heresie either hath his particular place holding some place and corner of the earth or else deceiueth the curiositie of men in obscure and secret conuenticles if any say vnto you behold here is Christ and there which signifieth some parts of the earth or prouinces thereof or in secret places or in the desert which signifieth the obscure and secret inuisible conuenticles of heretikes c. If it were not also a ridiculous shift men of our time would not haue bene moued at the hearing of it to say as one did Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici and much lesse would S. Augustine onely imagining that some should say Siquis dixerit fortè sunt aliquae oues Dei nescio vbi quas curat Deus illas non noui absurdus est nimis humano sensui qui talia cogitat Aug. l. de ouibus cap. 16. conformably to it God hath perhaps other sheepe of whom himselfe taketh care but I know not where they be nor who they be haue saied of it as he did he to wit that saith or shall say thus is too too absurd to humane sense Lastly if it were not also a desperate shift the consideration of the falsehood and folly of it could neuer haue driuen as it seemeth it hath done diuers learned Protestants obstinately bent against the Catholicke profession either to doubt or deny or vtterly to cast off the truth of Christian profession neither could it be so apt to driue all other obstinate Protestants to the like desperate resolution as doubtlesse it is when on the one side they open their eies to consider the plaine Prophesies of Scripture foretelling the amplitude splendor glory and continuance of true Christian professors and on the other side may plainely see such predictions not to haue bene fulfilled in their inuisible imaginary congregation of Protestant professions For whilest these 2. considerations are ioyned with the obstinate hatred of the Catholicke Romane profession which will not let them consider that in it and onely in it these prophecies haue bene fulfilled it is most easie for them through desperation either with Castalion to fall into doubts in faith or with Dauid George flatly to deny the truth of Christian faith or with Bernardine Ochine to fall into the foule heresie of denying the Diuinity of our Sauiour Christ which is one of the most principall articles of our faith or with Neuserus to turne Turke or with Alemanus to become Iewes or with many in our owne miserable countrey to be made absolute Atheistes neither caring for God Christ nor any other thing which we beleeue by true Christian faith 4 In good time now I see land and my penance drawes towards an end I haue but this one blast more to endure He sayes If the Protestants could make solide answer to this argument they would neuer seeke for such shiftes but being not able soundly to answer it nor yet willing to acknowledge themselues to be conuinced by it desperate obstinacy and obstinate desperation haue driuen them to this bad miserable ridiculous and desperate shift This goes reasonable roundly for the spirit of boasting and veine of insulting must now and then sally or our Aduersaries should forfit their Charter But what is the question and what is the argument and what is the answer so desperate The question is about the visibility of the Militant Church the Repliar defending that it is alway visible in one state of purity as he hath expounded The argument he vses to proue it is because the Church must be a light set vpon a Candlesticke and the meanes which God hath appointed for the reuealing of his truth and a Citty built vpon a mount whereto God
the first rudiments of Christian Religion that there is but one onely God and therefore it may not be thought that so many reuerend and learned Bishops as were at that Councell whom this Minister malepertly calleth vnlearned and simple persons could euer haue conceiued and much lesse that they would haue definitiuely concluded so grosse an errour and published it to the world Nay the Nicene Councell was so farre from defining that images were to be worshipped with latria or diuine honour as expressely it denieth diuine honour to be done to them as appeareth by these wordes of that CouÌ„cel We define images to be honored c. that by looking vpon the painted images all that do behold them may come to the remembrance and desire of the things represented by them and may exhibite to them an honorable salutation and worship not according to our faith true latria which is due onely to the diuine honour Now as touching the Frankeford Councell first it was not Generall neither euer did the Popes Legates if they were present assent to condemne the Nicene Councell neither did the Pope euer confirme any such condemnation Besides no such condemnation is to be found in the Councell of Frankford all that is found being in a forged booke ascribed falsely to Charles the Great in which also that feigned canon which is cited as the canon of the Councell of Frankeford nameth not the Nicene but the Constantinopolitan Councell By which may appeare that the Author of the booke neither knew what the Nicene Constantinopolitan or Frankeford Councell did truely hold or decree but set downe that canon either by hearesaie or at aduenture by the imagination of his owne head 1 THat which I said touching the Councels of Neece and Frankeford was not to shew the errours that haue bene in Councels or to proue that generall Councels may erre in things of faith though it fully and vnauoideably do it but to let the reader see in that example how vnable our aduersaries are for all their confident boasting when things come to the triall to quit themselues And indeede in this one example among many any man may perceaue they are the most shifting and preuaricating companions that euer dealt not hauing any where to abide or rest their foote or any truth to stand vpon when things are put to the issue which appeares now the more by the Repliars intermedling who saying what he can to that I obiected and hauing had time to search what he could is yet fallen into those shifts and absurdities that no man looking with the face of a Christian would be taken in denying apparant truthes testified by all Antiquitie and confessed by many of his owne side and with a desperate conscience vttering euery word falser then other And I desire the reader to marke attentiuely if it be not true that I said that WHATSOEVER OPINION THEIR FAVORITES HAVE OF THEM yet when things are brought home to their triall these magnified Iesuites are the emptiest and idlest disputers that euer with so great ostentation set pen to paper First he saies I endeauour to proue that the Councell of Neece was condemned by the Councell of Frankeford for defining that the same adoration and seruice ought to be giuen to the images of Saints which is giuen to the diuine Trinitie This is vntrue for in my discourse I said no such thing but only that the secoÌ„d Nicene Councel hauing brought in the worship of images not affirming what kinde of worship whether such as is giuen the Trinity or of a lower degree the Emperor Charles assembled another at Frankeford and condemned it againe reiecting the Nicene Indeede the Emperours booke charges the Councell with decreeing that kinde of worship It was written in the booke of the Synod that they should be cursed which did not giue the same seruice and adoration to the images of Saints which is giuen to the diuine Trinitie But these are not my words neither are they alledged to that end but to confute certaine Papists that affirmed the Councell of Frankford condemned not the worship of images at all The same booke a Constantinus Constantiae Cypri Episcopus dixit Suscipio amplector honorabiliter sanctas venerabiles imagines secundùm ser ntium adorationis quod consubstantialâ— Trinitatâ— emitto qui sic non sentiunt anathemati submitto Constantius caeteris consentientibus Lib. Caroli pag. 382. ann 1549. in 16. reports that in that Councell Constantius the Bishop of Cyprus and the rest of the Bishops consenting with him saide hee would giue to images the same seruice and adoration that he gaue to the consubstantiall Trinitie And b Paâ—o an 794. nu 36. our aduersaries confesse the Councell of Frankford thought that of Nice to be of this mind but whether it were or no I affirmed not but onely that it decreed they should be worshipped This is his first vntruth 2 Next he sayes The Nicene Councell did not define that images were to be worshipped with honour onely due to God because such a grosse conceit could neuer haue entred into any Christian mans minde c. This reason affirmes another vntruth for Azorius a Iesuite c Iâ—stit moral l 9 c. 6. And the same is said by Pesâ—nt in Tho pag. 837. a. affirmes it to be the constant opinion of the Diuines in the Church of Rome that images must be adored with the same adoration that belongs to their samplar and he addes that the Councell of Nice insinuated so much Both the Councell of Nice therefore and the Diuines of the Church of Rome hold the Images of God and our Sauiour and the Crosse must be adored with diuine adoration because God and Christ is adored with diuine adoration and thus d Tho. 3. p. qu. 25. râ— 3. 4. Alexand. 3. p q. 30. m. 3. art 3. Ricar 3. d. 9 art 2. qu. 2. 3. Capreol art 1. concl 2. Ferrar. contr gent. l. 3. c. 120. ad 2. Turrecrem 3. p. de consecr c. crucis n 2 c. venerab n. 2. Silvest v. Latria n 2. Waldens de sacramental c. 119. Caiet in 3. p. Tho. q. 25 art 3. 4. Pesant â—isp 2. concl 3. Valentia tom 3. disp 6. qu. 11. punct 6. Bellar. imag l. 2. c. 23. Turrian pro Câ—nonic ep l. 1 c. 25. Andrad orthod explic l. 9. Iacob de Graff decis p. 1. l. 2. c. 3. n. 1. 4. Thyrrae de apparit pag. 81. n 2. Posseâ—â—n bibl select l. 8. c. 17. n. 23. â—and de imag c. 17. pag. 184. teach the most Schoole-men and Diuines that handle this matter as will appeare by viewing their bookes Which being so grosse a conceit as it is indeed let the Repliers censure fall vpon it hardly and let the Diuines of his Church go for such as are no Christians being ignorant of the rudiments of Christs religion and that there is but one God And let the world beware of such pestilent heretickes
vbi sup Fourthly the Feast of the Conception which imports she was without sinne is celebrated 5 Vasq vbi sup In which regard sayes Vasquez it would seeme verie strange to me if the Church should euer define she was conceiued in sinne when by her authoritie she hath alreadie commaunded the Feast of the Conception in token she was not conceiued in sinne and the common consent of Catholicks both vulgar and Diuines contending for the immaculate conception without sinne Suarez q Vbi sup prop. 4. sayes Sixtus Quartus did much fauour it whose decree the Councell of Trent approues and the whole Church doth vehemently leane to it that now the contrarie can haue either none at all or no firme or euident foundation But the truth is it is fully defined in the Councell of Basill Hitherto r Sess 36. sayes the Councell a difficult question hath bene made touching the Conception of the glorious Virgin We hauing diligently seene and examined the reasons define and declare that the doctrine which teaches her neuer to haue bene actually subiect to sinne but alwayes free from it and from all actuall sinne to be consonant to the religion OF THE CHVRCH AND CATHOLICKE DOCTRINE and that it shall be lawfull for no man hereafter to teach the contrarie moreouer we renew the ordinance made for the celebrating of this holy conception on the 6. of the Ides of December Whereby we see how false it is that it is not held as a point of faith For building themselues vpon this decree and vpon Å¿ Cum Praeexcelsa Graue nimis in extrau comm another of Sixtus Quartus whereto the t Sess 5. §. Declarat tamen Councell of Trent manifestly giues way by confirming the conceit u Almain Clictouae Titlem reported by Vasq Suar. vbi sup the forwarder sort of our aduersaries affirme it resolutely to be a point of faith defined by the Church But whether it be true or no that the faith of their Church is nothing but what this froward generation will confesse to be defined by the Pope by this it is plaine that touching this point the Pastors and Doctors and people of the Romane church differ from antiquitie Vasquez w Communis consensus Catholicorum non solùm imperiti vulgi sed etiam Doctorum Theolâ—gorum pro immaculata conceptione pugnat Vasq vbi sup sayes expresly Not onely that vnskilfull vulgar but the Doctors and Diuines and all Catholickes with one consent fight for the immaculate conception What immodestie is it now to denie that to be the Churches faith which is thus holden and to say it is not diligently digested that is thus concocted in the conceits not onely of the vulgar but of the Doctors and Diuines and all Catholickes with one consent in the Church of Rome CHAP. L. 1. Touching Seruice and Prayer in an vnknowne language 2. The Text of 1. Cor. 14. expounded and defended against Bellarmine 7. The ancient Church vsed prayer in a knowne language A. D. Secondly touching Latin Seruice although M. White say as it is easie to say that all antiquitie is against vs in this point Pag. 279. White p. 343. yet he will neuer be able to proue solidely that the ancient Church did condemne this our practise The words of the Apostle which he alledgeth proue nothing to the purpose as is shewed by Bellarmine and as for other authors which he citeth they do not disallow this this our practise Bellar. l. 2. de verb. Del. c 16. or account it vnlawfull whereas both by reason and authoritie our authors shew it to be both lawfull and laudable See Bellarmine lib. 2. de verbo Dei cap. 15. 1 THe vse of the Church of Rome to haue the publicke Seruice and Prayers and ministration of Sacraments in an vnknowne tongue is well enough knowne This I affirmed to be against antiquitie and a point wherein they haue altered the faith of the ancient Church And first I alledged the words of Saint Paul then the testimonie and confession of other Ecclesiasticall writers to all which he answers nothing but referres me to Bellarmine In which absurd course if I would imitate him I might also referre him to such as haue answered Bellarmine and the reader that expected to see the thing tried betweene vs should be deluded Neuerthelesse I will doe my best to bring this broode of darknesse to the light and euery thing that I haue said to the triall that the truth may appeare and the shame be theirs that turne their backes 2 First he sayes I will neuer be able soundly to proue that the auncient Church condemned this their practise I answer the Apostle condemnes it in the words a 1. Cor. 14.7 alledged If an instrument of musicke make no distinction in the sound how shall it be knowne what is piped or harped So likewise you vnlesse by the language you vtter words that haue signification how shall it be vnderstood what is spoken for you shall speake in the aire I will pray and sing with the spirit and I will pray and sing with the vnderstanding also Else when thou blessest with the Spirit how shall he that occupies the roome of the vnlearned say Amen at thy giuing of thankes seeing he knowes not what thou sayest I had rather in the Church to speake fiue words with my vnderstanding that I might also instruct others then a thousand words in a strange tongue No enemie that the Church of Rome hath can more fully condemne Seruice in an vnknowne language nor in more effectuall termes speake against it For be requires all that which is done in the Church be it Exhortation Prophecie Singing Expounding or Praying to be done in a language that the people present vnderstands and rebukes the contrary All that the Replier sayes hereto is that Bellarmine hath shewed these words proue nothing Which is his policie to auoide the scanning of them for he knowes all the learned of his side be so deuided in their answer to these words that whatsoeuer he should say would fall out to be contrary to that which others affirme For the auoiding of which inconuenience he referres vs to Bellarmine as if in him we should find a iust answer and full satisfaction But he abuses the Reader as shall plainly appeare by propounding the summe and substance of all that Bellarmine sayes to the place First he sayeth It is certaine the Apostle in a great part of this chapter speakes not of the reading of the Scripture nor concerning the Seruice of the Church but of certaine spirituall exhortations and conferences then vsed Touching this point how true or false soeuer it be I will not greatly stand with him but then it is as certaine that in a great part of this Chapter he speakes of Church-seruice and prayers and of reading the Scripture as well as of spirituall conferences and collations So his patron Gretser that hath lately vndertaken to defend all his
people liuing in mariage yet haue not their secret cohabitation much reported but whether they companied together or no the examples shew they were married they dwelt together in one house they had children and brought them vp together which liberty the Church of Rome now denies The Councell of Constantinople p Est auâ—em etiam vniuersalis Bals p. 194. which was vniuersall q See Simanch institut tit 4. n. 38. and the canons thereof legitimate r Can 13. allowes both the marriage and cohabitation and saies it is the ancient Apostolicall constitution Å¿ Socr. l 1. c. 11. gr Zozom l. 1. c. 23. gr the like did Paphnutius in the first Councell of Neece t The WAY 2. edit p. 344. I alledged a place in Zonaras vpoÌ„ the canons which here I will put into English The Apostles in the canon say that if a Priest vnder the pretence of religion put his wife he shall be excluded excommunicate till he receaues her againe but if he perseuere and will not receaue her againe he shall be degraded because it seems to be done in reproch of marriage as if the mixture of man and wife were vncleannesse Whereas the Scripture saies marriage is honourable and the bed vndefiled The cannon also mentions Bishops hauing wiues because AT THAT TIME THE LAVVFVLL COHABITATION OF BISHOPS WITH THEIR WIVES WAS NOT FORBIDDEN Our aduersaries answer that this custome was but in the Greeke Church and not in the West But what was not the Greeke Church especially in those times the Church of God and haue not they altered the ancient faith that haue altered that which was vniuersall in the most famous Churches of the world and hath not the Pope in the West hereby shewed himselfe to be an Antichristian hereticke that condemnes the vniuersall doctrine of so famous a Church But the West Church also allowed the same liberty till the tyranny of the Pope as u The WAY digr 51. n. 10. I shewed exstinguist it * Scot. 4. d. 47. Ios Angl. Flo. ril in 4 p. 386. Antidid Colon. p. 128. Coster Enchir. p. 517. Greg. Val tom 4. d. 9. q 5. punct 5. All Papists I thinke will grant that maried Ministers were ordained in the Apostles * Mariana pro edit vulg p. 47. times and after yea such as had bene twise maried So to maior y Comment in Tit. c. 1. §. vnius vxotis saies it must be confessed and graunted that of old in the Primitiue Church reason of the small number of Ministers maried Bishops and Priests were vsed by indulgence That indulgence is Sotoes conceit and not the truth as I haue shewed for it is true that the faction against Priests mariage began betimes as appeares by the story of Paphnutius and the Nicene Councell but it was resisted by the godly BB. Dionysius for example the famous Bishop of Corinth a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb p. 41. b. called it a heauy burtheÌ„ not to be imposed on the brethren And therefore b Non horruit illa Tempestate Deus thalamos cunabula taedas Mant Fast 1. and the example of Simplicius before alledged still they maried euen in the West vnder the Romane Patriarchate Marius a Papist c De schism Concil part 3. c. vlt. saies he knowes right well that in the time of Pope Formosus which was 800. yeares after Christ it was permitted and lawfull for Priests to marrie wiues and when the restraint came in he cannot tell though he haue most diligently inquired d Cromer de Orig. gest Polon l. 7. p. 517 In Poland they had their wiues till almost 1200. yeares after Christ e Henr. Hunting p 378. prohibuit ante non prohibitas In England as long f Auentin l. 5. see the WAY pag 377. In Germany France and Italy as long Which I presume the Christian world would not so stiffely haue mainetained if it had bene against the sounder practise of the g See 26. q. 2. sors Clictou de contin c. 4. Church But when they saw it was not forbidden by any law of God but onely opposed first by faction and then by tyrannie they stood as long as they could till they were oppressed by tyrannie Aureolus h 4. d. 37. p 185. saies the common way of holding is that Orders haue the vow of continency annexed by the institution of the Church This is somewhat to shew that God by no diuine law made it so but if he had added that the Church which made this institution had bene a faction first of superstitious persons and then of Antichristian heretickes conducted by the Pope he had said the truth and opened the whole pedigree of it but if he had added further that which i Istud onus quod adhuc quamplurima monstra fecit ab audaci sertur pietaâ—e repertum Mant. Fast l. 1. see Joh Mar. vbi sup not a few of his fellowes supply for him that by leading from Gods ordinance it hath filled their Clergy with all maner of vncleannesse and villanny he had said no more then all the world knowes to be true and will subscribe to CHAP. LIII Wherein is handled the doctrine of the Church of Rome touching the worship of images and the distinctions whereby the same is maintained are examined and our aduersaries finally conuicted of giuing Gods honour to their images The Ancient Church was against image worship A. D. Fiftly touching images whereas M. White * White pag. 344 of the first edit 345. in the second edition Where for shame he addeth a limitation saying some of them hauing in the first edition absolutely said without limitation The Church of Rome worshippeth c saith Pag. 281. that the Church of Rome worshippeth and coÌ„mandeth men to worship them with the very same diuine honour which is due to God himselfe first no man holdeth that the images of Saints are to beworshipped with the very same diuine honour which is due to God because the Saints themselues being more honoured of vs then their images are not honoured with diuine honour Secondly although some say that the image of Christ is to be worshipped with the same honour that the Prototypon is yet these be but some and that which is said by these some is not so to be vnderstood as M. White seemeth willing to make his Reader beleeue as though they meant that the verie honour due to our Sauiour should be giuen to the image it selfe which cannot be vnlesse we should be so foolish as to conceaue and iudge that the image it selfe were indeed Christ the Sonne of God which none that hath learned the first rudiments of Christianity can conceaue and iudge Those therefore that vse that manner of speech do onely meane that the image is worshipped with the same worship onely improperly and per accident or at the most Analogicè All which manners are farre from giuing any
of that I say And this is agreeing with the publicke profession and doctrine of their Church For it is holden e Quod ad nos pertinet certior fiâ—mior est Ecclesiae authoritas quam Sripturae Azâ—â— Inst tom 2 l 5 c. 24. See Abulens q. 13 prooem in Matth. Caiet apol de author Pap. par 2. c. 13. ad 5. Dried de eccl dogm l. 2. c. 3. ad 4. that the authoritie of the Church is greater then of the Scriptures f Stapl relect controu 4. q 5 pag. 494. 495. That the Churches authoritie is it that makes vs receiue the Scripture and euery thing that is to be beleeued yea the Church is to be heard MORE CERTAINLY then the Scripture because her doctrine is MORE MANIFEST AND EVIDENT THEN the doctrine of the Scripture And g Medin de rect in Deum fid l 5. c. 11 refert Azor. to 2 p. 602. our faith whereby we beleeue the matters of faith is reduced to the authoritie of the Church because we giue NO CREDIT TO THE SCRIPTVRES but for that the Church propounde the canon thereof to be beleeued And finally h Stapl relect pag 548. the Church hath the power to expound the Scripture from whom we must receiue the sense thereof i Pag. 550. which authoritie of the Church is the tower and bulwarke of our faith whereto euery faithfull man must retire when any question ariseth Pope Gregorie the 13 k D. 40. Si Papa annot sayes Men do with such reuerence respect the Apostolicall seate of Rome that they rather desire to know the ancient institution of Christian religion from the Popes mouth then from the holy Scriptures and they onely enquire what is his pleasure and according to it they order their life and conuersation By which words of theirs it is cleare that I said the truth For to what purpose should they alledge or mention Scripture for themselues that thus place all the power vertue and efficacie of it in their Church that in euery issue flie for the exposition of it to their Church that finde such wants and defects in it that all things must be supplied out of their Church If there were any error in my speech it lay in another point because I did not say all their speech is of the Pope no mention of the Scripture but of the Pope I should in stead of the Church haue said the Pope of Rome For l See below c. 35 n. 1 THE WAY digr 16. n. 4. howsoeuer they vse the name of the Church yet thereby they meane nothing but the Popes will he is the Churches mouth and head and from him the Church receiues her prerogatiues neither do we know or beleeue any thing to be the doctrine of the Church or sence of the Scripture vnlesse he deliuer it This is their doctrine 2 So that I might with good discretion compare our aduersaries to such as follow their mother onely and their mother her selfe to one of the Ethiopian kind without any imputation of scurrilitie And the Iesuite should not haue set vp his combe at the BB. about the matter for they will answer that a great Archbishop Thomas Becket of Canterburie long afore them did more then they haue done for they onely heard me vtter the speech but he vttered it himselfe m Iewel def apol pag 762. Our mother Rome is turned whore for money which being so I could not imagine when I writ how our aduersaries should call vpon any but their mother whose children they were of the surer side But if he thinke I haue slandered his mothers honestie the Court is open let him take his action against me and he shall heare my answer Francis Petrach a most learned man n Ioh Mar. Belg pag. 441. called Rome The whore of Babylon Budaeus o De Asse pag. 590. 601. If we consider the face and habit of our Cleargie speaking of the Church of Rome we shall be constrained to say the spouse hath renounced her husband and bidden him deale in his matters himselfe Now the spouse of Christ forgetting the band of mariage not onely lies from her husband but without all respect of shame goes vp and dowe the streetes and high waies and playes the whore from Prouince to Prouince Matthew Paris p Hist pag. 535. The vnsatiable greedinesse of the Romane Church so preuailed that all blushing set apart like a common and shamelesse whore she prostituted her selfe for money to all commers Ioannes Saris buriensis q Policrat pag. 402. An incestuous wooer is descended into the bosome of the Church Mantuan r Silu. l. 1. Mars is become father to our Romanes and a whore their mother Onus Ecclesiae Å¿ Cap. 43. n. 7. God by the Prophet Ezekiel speakes to the Church of our dayes in these words Thou hast committed fornication exceedingly and art not satisfied but hast multiplied thy fornication vpon earth and doest all the workes of a whore and of an impudent woman All these that thus speake were of the Church of Romes bed-chamber and attended on her and saw who came in and out and therefore their testimonie proues that I said of her Besides Nun-Bridget t Meretrix solet esse Procax in verbis Leuiâ— in moribus Pulcra facie Ornata vestibus Reuel l. 1. c 15. sayes the markes of a whore are foure Shamelesnesse in words Leuitie in manners A faire face And gay clothes All these agree to the Church of Rome as euery bodie knowes therefore I demand iudgement and my charges against the Iesuite CHAP. III. 1. The Order of the Iesuites why and to what purpose erected by the Pope They are that to the Pope that the Ianisaries are to the Turke 2. Their abodements Pag. 24. A. D. It would be too tedious to touch all particulars which may be obserued in this his Dedicatorie epistle in which like a man runne mad or franticke through furie he raileth and rageth against our religion and the professors thereof without care either of truth sinceritie modestie or common ciuilitie I will as I purposed giue the reader onely a taste leauing it to his discretion to thinke of the rest as he shall see cause The Iesuites saith he which are the Popes Ianizaries that guard his person and were brought in now at the last cast when the state of the Papacie was at a dead lift to support the waight of the maine battell haue pestered the land with their writings and filled the hands and pockets of all sorts of people with their papers yea fannes and feathers are lapped vp in them wherein it is admirable to see how presumptuously they take vpon them in disgracing our persons belying our doctrine and coyning and defending strange opinions of their owne neuer heard of afore c. How false this his relation is in diuers respects the discreete reader if he be acquainted with Iesuites will easily discerne As
hath made his promises Our answer is we deny not our Church to be visible but thinke it to haue bene the same that in all ages communicated with the Church of Rome in the truth and substance of the ancient faith and we call it sometime inuisible onely in that sense which I haue so often declared against which that which is here propounded concludeth nothing 5 For S. Austin sayes no more in the first place but that the Catholicke Church stretches the boughs and increases abundantly ouer the whole earth which we confesse it doth two waies First in that howsoeuer the growth thereof be sometime hindered yet it cannot at all time be so oppressed but that it hath some time and many a long time liberty enough to dilate it selfe all ouer the world as winter corne that in hard weather is not seene to flourish yet hath season enough beside to grow all ouer the field Secondly in as much as it growes also and increases when it is most obscure as the Sunne retaines and exercises his light when it is most ecclipsed The Iesuites continuall error is that to be obscure and to be vtterly taken away is all one and that the suppressing of the outward liberty state and perfection supposes the extinguishing of the essence and being of the Church That which S. Austin sayes in the second place alledged I also grant answering that it may well stand with our assertion A cleare and manifest authority of the Church it appointed ouer the whole world and yet this authority may be resisted and called in question and abused and vsurped by Heretiques and persecutors and then though it be cleare and manifest in it selfe that the Church hath this authority yet the exercise thereof may be corrupted in such sort that sometime it shall need reformation Schismatickes and Heretiques are not to be beleeued but let the Repliar proue all these in whom our Church was to be such Schisme and Heresie haue their particular places and obscure and secret corners but not alwaies for in the Church of Israel when a 1. Reg. 19.14 the children of Israel forsooke the couenant of God Threw downe his altars slue his Prophets and none but Elias alone was left and when b 2. Cro. 15.3 for along season Israel was without the true God and without a teaching Priest and without the law and c 2. Cro. 28.24 when Ahaz the king of Iudah did cut in peeces the vessels and shut vp the dores of the house of God and made him altars in euery corner of Ierusalem and high places in euery seuerall city of Iudah to burne incense to other Gods It was not so Nor at such time as Ierom d Comment in Psal 33. §. Qui statis tom 8. sayed The Church is where the faith is for 20 yeares since Heretiques possessed all these Churches nor when Hilary e Pag. 316. d. writ One thing I forewarne yee of beware of Antichrist ill doth the loue of walles affect you ill do ye reuerence the Church of God in houses and buildings is there any doubt but Antichrist sits in them to me the mountaines and the woods and lakes of water and prisons and boggs are safer And if for the most part they haue doth it follow thereupon that all religion practised particular places and secret corners is Heresie what then shall become of Gods truth in such times as these are But it is absurd to say God hath possible other sheepe I know not where nor who they be that himselfe lookes to and so say I for he speakes of such as hold there may be some of the faithfull out of the Church or at the least so hidden in the Church that none can see them Neither of which is our doctrine but onely that sometimes they may be so oppressed that no man can see any congregation of them openly professing and exercising the worship of God purely and without corruption but the right faith and gouernment shall be euery where persecuted and kept vnder though many of these sheepe thus corrupted belong to the sheepfold of Christ by reason of the foundation of faith which they hold and their repentance of their errors S. Austin therefore proues not our assertion to be a shift Go we forward and let vs see the rest 6 If it were not a ridiculous shift men of our time would not haue bene moued at the hearing of it to say as one did Spectatum admissi That * Camp rat 3. one belike was one of Penelopees f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 odyss ◠wooers or of g Valer. Maxim l. 9. c. 12. Philemons kind that was choaked with laughing at his owne foolish conceite with a iest of his owne making and therefore I will quit them with a story in h Eustath in Hom. odyss p. 659. 22. Eustathius that they may laugh better The Terynthians were a nation generally flowted of their neighbours for their fleering and light countenance they could do nor see nor heare any thing but they would laugh at it Therefore they inquired of Apollo how they might be deliuered from that Passion who answered IF THEY COVLD SACRIFICE A BVLL TO NEPTVNE AND THROW HIM INTO THE SEA WITHOVT LAVGHING whereupon in a speciall consultation they agreed to go forward with the sacrifice but no boyes should be among them least they should laugh at any thing they did but it fortuned that as they were sacrifising a little Boy came in among them and seeing contrary to the custome euery mans countenance so grauely set hee also counterfaited an austeere lookes and carued a face sutable to them which affectation they perceiuing burst all out into laughter and lost their labour and so remained a laughing nation for euer after Their error was to laugh at that in the child which themselues did and with laughing to loose their Bull. It seemes my Repliar and the men that cannot refraine laughter and the man he mentions are of their posterity * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eustath Iouiall companions that will laugh at that in others that they do themselues and will exchange their sacrifice for a iest let them go to the sea againe with the Bull and trie if they can haue any better lucke then the Terinthians i Barbaricum faciem Romanam sumere vultuni miror Ennod. Pitty Roman heads should haue so graue tongues and so light countenances 7 In the last place he obiects that our doctrine touching the inuisible Church hath made diuers learned Protestants obstinately bent against Papistry desperate for when they haue seene the Prophecies of the Scripture foretelling the amplitude splendor glory and continuance of true Christian Professors neuer to haue bene fullfilled in their inuisible congregation of Protestant Professors they haue either doubted ordenied or vtterly cast off the truth of all Christian Profession the reason is their obstinacy not suffering them to consider that in the Roman Profession onely these