God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides The Proposition none will deny The Assumption is proved thus The people and Assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word their constitution is such as vnto them in that estate the covenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteine But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assēblies of England as they worship God after a false maner never appointed by himself nor approved in his word Therefore the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and Assemblies of England is such as vnto them in that estate the Couenaunts holy things and service of God do not apperteyne The Proposition was proved by the example of the Samaritans and by Christs speach concerning them in such estate Ioh. 4. 2 King 17. wherevnto you answer nothing to any purpose save that what you say is against your self For where you graunt That the Samaritans and Balaam knew and beleeved the Messias should come yea and that the Divels know beleev there is a God and that Iesus is the Christ the holy one of God Who seeth not that most excellent truthes may be acknowledged and yet they which so professe be not therfore in their estate true Christians or true Churches to whom the Couenauntes holy things and service of God do apperteine And where next you say The Samaritans beleeved not in the Messias it will be heard for you to proove it seeing you take beleefe in Christ so as it is had in the spirituall Babylon and her daguhters and seeing also the Samaritans professed and beleeved not onely that the Messias should come but even he which is called Christ and that when he came he would declare vnto them all things In so much as when Iesus was come and had spoken but to a woman of Samaria the Scripture witnesseth that many of the Samaritans of that city beleved in him for the saying of the woman which testifyed he hath tolde me all things that ever I did Iohn 4.25.26.29.30.39 Thirdly where you say The Samaritans ioined Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell whih wholy destroyed the trueth in them By this againe it is evident even in your owne confession both that such things may be ioyned with the doctrines of trueth as in that estate they which professe those truthes can not be iudged true Christians or true Churches to whom the promises and holy things of God do belong and that therefore also the Proposition of your principall and maine Argument is not generall but of necessitie admitteth limitation So then your maine defence falleth to the ground Of which see further Pag. 5. c. Moreover in that you say The Samaritans ioyned Heathnish Idols with the God of Israell 2 King 17. If you meane that they worshipped the Idols themselves ◠King 17. sacrifycing to them and accompting them to be Gods as well as the God of Israell and so brake the First cōmaundemēt as before you affirmed in your answer to the First Reason then I take it that here againe you are deceived The scripture sayeth they worshipped and sacrifized to the Lord God of Israell So as their sinne was against the Second commaundement in that worshipping the true God See before Pag. 67. 68. they did it in and by those Images as also by other devices of their owne and traditions of their predecessours That this was their case besides that it appeareth in the chapter alledged it is most plainly testifyed 1. First by themselves in the book of Ezra where they speak to the Iewes of the captivitie that builded the Temple saying * Ezra 4.1.2 We will build with you for vve seek the Lord your God as ye do and we have sacrifyced vnto him since the tyme of Esar Haddon King of Ashur which brought vs vp hither 2. Secondly by the speach that was between Christ and the woman of Samaria Ioh. 4. where it is manifest the “ Ioh. 4.20.21 22.23.24.25.29.30 contention between the Iewes and the Samaritans was not whether onely the true God vvas to be vvorshipped but both of them agreeing in that vvhether the solemne place of his vvorship vvas in Ierusalem or in the mount of Samaria c. 3. Lastly by your owne confession when ‡ Pag. 105. you say the Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethel served not Pagan Idols but the true God after their ovvne devices For the Samaritans as the †2 King 17.28.32.33 Scripture testifyeth worshipped the same God and after the same maner that the Nations did vvhich vvere caried from thence Now the nations thence carried were the tenne Tribes of Israel that fel away from Iudah to Ieroboam Who likewise ♣ 1 King 12.27.28.29.30.31 with 2 King 17.32.33.40.41 feared the Lord and served their Images that is God in and by their Images As now also the Samaritans did that were come in their stead Hitherto of your answer which seemeth to concerne the Proposition of the latter Syllogisme The Assumption was shewed by this that your Assemblies being commingled togeather of all sortes of people you have also for your vvorship of God a counterfeit Ministery and service devised by man This you do rightly vnderstand as we meane it of your Hierarchie and other abominations before rehearsed Pag. 63. c. Which deceiptfully here againe you would smother vp vnder the name of ceremonies Touching which sleight of yours sufficient is said before in the handling of the First Reason But what say you now cōcerning the Assumption or proof of it Do you deny it Not so What then do you say for your counterfet Hierarchie vvorship c. Not a word but this That your assemblies in England have not their consciences conuicted in these as the people vnder Ieroboam could not but have their consciences convicted then touching their vvorship and Priesthood But first if this were so is it any just defence of your Ministery vvorship or estate that yet you see them not to to be vnlawfull as it could not be but they vnder Ieroboam saw theirs to be If this were a sufficient reason might not the grossest Papists plead likewise for their Ministery worship and estate as also the Vsurers extortioners and persecutors for themselves and their wickednes And by this reason God should not have sent Lyons among the Samaritans 2 King 17.26 because yet they knew not the maner of worshipping the God of Israell neither had their consciences convicted therein But Christ hath taught vs otherwise †Luk 12.48 that even that servant vvhich knovveth not his Maisters vvill and yet committeth things vvorthy of stripes shal be beaten though vvith fevver stripes then he that knovveth and doeth it not And of those Israelites aforesaid the Lord himself testifieth “ Hos 4.6 that they vvere destroyed for lack of
where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicitie is found So as they neyther neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. We also aske and say the same But now if you say this is your case both we and your owne works deny it For proof whereof see the differences between you and the Martyrs before specifyed Pag. 40. 41. At Thomas a Waterings by London 1593. May 29 Mr Penry whom you ♣ martyred also the same yeare his speach followeth In which likewise note fower things not one of them for you as towching the question in hand 1. The true doctrines established by Law and professed by her Maiesty their Honours and such as have knowledge in your assemblies he acknowledgeth to be such as if he did not mainteyne and hold them likewise he could not possibly be saved We also are like mynded And to put you out of all doubt we tell you further that if we did not hold and mainteine the true doctrines professed in the Church of Rome towching the onely true God the holy Trinity the Mediator Christ the Resurrection Life eternall c. we could not possibly look to be saved Yet do we not therefore approve their Assemblies to be true Churches or the members thereof true Christians in their estate 2. He separated from your Church as remaining in Antichristian cōstitution and professeth here that he durst not ioine with the publik worship of your Assemblies The causes thereof he mentioneth in the same confession which you conceale Of which see further in his aunswer to Mr Fanshaw hereafter following 3. He confesseth that manie of the Teachers and professors in your assemblies have so embraced the truth of doctrine established and professed in the Land as the Lord hath given them to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lords election he iudged them members of that body whereof Christ is the head and prayed God herein to be mercifull to them as to himself in regard of all his sinnes that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in the Church Now marke here 1. that this is no other thing then as we alway did and still do professe likewise Of which see before Pag. 7. 41. 2. That he speaketh but of some not of all the members of your Church Whereas your Assumption and Conclusion are of your whole publik Assemblies and so of every member of your Church as towching their outward stāding therein 3. That the perswasion he had of such among you was as himself noteth in regard of the Lords election not of their estate in your Churches constitution For towching this which is the question between vs here he prayed God to be mercifull to them as to him self in respect of all his sinnes Now I suppose you will not denie but his sinnes as also the sinnes of all Gods people deserve in their owne nature the curse of God if they were not forgiven in Christ So that by praying thus he acknowledged the estate of all even of the best among you to be such as for this verie cause you are everie one subiect to Gods wrath because you are not vnder that outward forme of Governement which Christ hath left in the Church Consider withall that even for Papists we may pray thus that the Lord would be mercifull to them in this that they are not vnder that outward forme of governement which Christ hath left in his Church and yet not hereby iustify them to be a true Church in their estate but rather the quite contrarie For Christ his Church wheresoever and among whomsoever it be is vnder Christ his governement not vnder Antichrists Neither have anie people promise of salvation in such estate 4. By all this it appeareth that he spake of them as iudging them to be members of the invisible and Catholick Church which conteyneth all Gods elect not onelie among you but among the Lutherans Anabaptists Papists and all other people whatsoever Now what is this to the poinct of the question controverted which is not of men as they belong to the Catholick invisible Church but as they stand members of some particular visible Assemblies in this or that constitution 4. His speach in examination before Mr Fanshaw why do you not set it downe in his owne words as you did the other before Belike you see your self it is against you howsoever you would pretend otherwise That all may know it thus it was Mr Fanshaw asked him this questiō Do the Martyrs teach you that there is no Church in England Mr Penry answered If you meane by a Church as the most do that publik professiō wherby men do professe salvation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Iesus Christ I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this Land For I know the doctrine of the holy Trinity the natures and offices of the Lord Iesus free iustification by him both the Sacraments c. published by her Maiestyes authority and commaunded by her Lawes to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truths without the knowledge and profession whereof no salvation is to be had These are his words By which you may see he saith no other thing here then what he spake in his Confession before obiected So as the answer given for it may serve for this also Or if that please you not you may mynd it thus If he had ben demaunded by Mr Fanshaw whether there were no Church of Christ in Rome and had answered thus If you meane by a Church that publick profession whereby men do professe Christ Iesus by nature to be truly both God and man that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his blood as a full and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes c. as the Papists do publikly professe Rhem. Annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5 then am I free from denying any Church of Christ to be in Rome If I say to this question he had thus aunswered would you have concluded vpon his words that he acknowledged the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ or the members thereof to be true Christians in their constitution Or do you see for the Church of Rome but not for your owne that such conclusion can not be pressed out of his words But yet further for the more clearing of this matter let vs marke what Mr Fanshaw next asked and he aunswered towching the estate of your Church and his separation from it Vpon his former aunswer Mr Fanshaw said thus vnto him Seing you acknowledge that her Maiesty hath established the truth in so many waighty points seing she hath commaunded the true Sacraments to be administred what mislike you in our Church and why will you not be partaker of these truths and Sacraments with vs Mr Penry answered I mislike 1. the false
being observed and Mr Iacob desired to resolve them in his next I will now proceed to shew the weaknes and insufficiency of his present pretended Defence Where for more evidence of the truth I will first set downe the Reasons heretofore alledged against his Cōparisō and then aunswer his cavils now brought against them Chap 2. The first Reason against Mr Iacobs Comparison as it was first propounded Fran. Iohnson INfidels Idolaters prophane and godles persons may marry togeather with consent and choise of each other notwithstanding their prophanenes And their marriage is therein lawfull But it standeth not so with choise of Ministers in the Church For prophane godles persons such as these Assemblies consist of being never rightlie gathered togeather according to Gods ordinance remaining in subiection and bondage to their false Antichristian Offices and Courts consisting of all sorts of people c. are not capable of chusing and ioyning to a true Minister in this estate as Infidels and such like may marry in their estate Therefore the comparison holdeth not neyther is such choise of a Minister by such people lawfull H. Iacob his Reply THe strength of this Reason standeth in these last words But these Assemblies consist of such people 1. prophane godles persons 2. neuer rightly gathered together according to Gods ordinance 3. remayning in subiection and bondage to their false and Antichristian officers courts Ergo c. These three accusations availe nothing at all The first Accusation is from our question Accusatiō 1. for we speake of a Christian people but you of assemblies consisting of prophane and godles persons If you say our assemblies all wholy are such That is false If you say some are Of them we speake not If you say in all every one of our assemblies there are some yea many open prophane and godles persons 1. It is too bold a saying and without knowledge to speak so of all 2. If it were true yet it were false to say our assemblies consist of such or to thinke that whole companies of Christians by such commixtures are made vnholy prophane and godles which is contrary to these scriptures Mat. 23.2.3 Luke 2.21.22 1.6 Act. 21.23.26 1 Sam. 2.17 cap. 1. vers 3.9 Rev. 2.20.21 3.1.4 1 Cor. 3.3 Gal. 3.1.2 4.11.16 5.4.9 The second Accusation that our assemblies were neuer rightly gathered togeather at the first according to Gods ordinance I deny it Accusatiō 2 especially towching many famous Congregations in the Land where the GOSpell was not vnknowen before the Queenes commaundement came to vrge them to receive this doctrine And if the maner of receiving it then in those hard and doubtfull tymes and hazardous beginnings were not so perfect nor so exact as should haue ben yet we may see by the example of “ 2 Chro. 30.17.18 19.20 Hezechias and * 2 Chr. 33.15.16.17 Manasses and †Zepha 1.4.5 3.1 Ier. 3.6 c. 4.1 c. 5.1 c. Iosias reformations That God imputeth it not to such godly and zealous restorers the pillers and ground of the trueth in those dayes If you say the vntaught people then suddenly receiving the Gospell by cōmandement not by hearing could not beleeve at the first though they professed and therefore at the first were no true Christians nor Churches I aunswer 1. Though many received the Gospell for the commandements sake yet who can say That now they all generally wanted all knowledge and all faith The word then having ben in many places taught very many bookes scattered much conference daily consultations and disputations vsed and the blood of the Martyrs having preached so loud and so lately before 2. It was not so sudden There was †From Nouember the 17. till Midsomer following more then halfe a yeare for the people to heare learne and consider before the commandement came So that it can not be counted meer force and compulsion that at the beginning of our Queenes reigne brought vs to the truth 3. I would know You condemne not I hope all reformation commanded and compelled by the Magistrate 2 Chron. 34.32.33 33.16 15.13 .. Seeing therefore the assemblies thus openly and aduisedly submitted to the proclaimed truth who seeth not but they cōfessed therein their former errors and professed their present faith and vndertooke a new life from that which before they led though happely not so formallie nor so perfectlie as were to have ben wished But they received all togeather Papists Atheistes ignorant men and all dissolute livers Obiection into one communion and fellowship Indeed all who after this aduizement and notice taken submitted to and receyved this doctrine Answer these were all receyued in And therefore no open professed Papistes Athistes nor other Heretikes As for ignorant men it is not possible but many will scape among the rest in so great so generall reformation of a publike state And so questionles it was in Hezechias Manasses Iosias reformation 2. Chron. which we noted before The notorious dissolute wicked some were reclaimed all vndertook another profession and a new appearance of Christianitie And no doubt the like is to be thought of these as before I obserued touching the ignorant men Now all this was done not intollerablie doubtlesse though I graunt weakly and corruptly very like euen to your owne receiuing in to your Church at this time nay more tollerable and more lawfull then yours who to furnish onely one congregation have received many * This particular Mr Iacob hath not printed but it was in his written copy which I aunswered bankrupts knowen bad men and very ignorant yea and still retaine men full of contention and bitter strife 1 Cor. 3..3 In a word this I answer That which disanulleth not a Church gathered and settled That disanulleth it not in the gathering and beginning But such mixtures do not disanull a Church gathered and settled as appeareth above in the scriptures quoted against the First Accusation Mat. 23. Luke 2 c. Therefore such mixtures did not disanull our Churches then in their beginning The Third Accusation is Our Assemblies remayne in obedience to the false Antichristian Officers Accusatiō 3. c. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversitie of sinnes All are not of like detestation before God not of like consequence against vs. I say not that any sinnes are veniall but I say all sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ nor deprive vs of the glory of God Now this sinne of outward Church orders is not of the most heynous nor extreamest disobedience There are sinnes against the †1 Cor. 15 2.3.4 Rom. 1.25 1 Cor. 3.10 11.12.13.14 foundation and there are sinnes that stande with the foundation ibid. wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved Such were the sinnes of the Iewish Church and estate in Christs
tyme and after as †Beza in Acts 15.20 some thinke even till their Temple and Citie were destroyed though they did personally hate and persecute Christ Such also was the sinne of the auncient declyning Bishops Cyprian Epiphanius Augustine Chrisostome Leo of Rome c. No lesse was in ours of late Cranmer Ridly Hooper c. in King Edwards dayes and no greater is now in ours presently especially towching our Churches Ministers too generally If you say we are all convicted now and sinne against our owne consciences as they did not in those tymes It is vtterly false and a palpable vntruth Whosoever knoweth any thing in our Church estate generally must needs see it that this poinct towching the Hyerarchy is not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one many holding and not of the simplest this present governement to be th' only true and right kinde but all men almost to be indifferent and lawfull very few indeed and scarce to be found that see it to be meerly nought or as you terme it wicked intolerable And in king Edwards tyme whosoever considereth shall finde H. Iâ— that the godly learned Protestans then were not vtterly ignorant of this point of reformation and yet sinned not against their conscience in bearing with the tymes neither were abolished from Christ And surelie towching the Iewes they were all generally more convicted then that Iesus vvas the Christ then vve are now that the Prelacy is of Antichrist yet they remayned a Church still because generally indeed they vvere not plainly conuicted Thus then this our sinne is * see the 2. sortes of fundamentall sinnes in the 2. Reply to your yâ—â—â—eason before Pag. 142 Fr. Io. See the aunswer thereto in the same treatise Pag 144.147 no way fundamentall it destroyeth not faith Christianity in our vvhole assemblies Therefore they remaine Christian people still as I affirmed not all godles prophane as you vncharitably speak O beware of rash hasty iudging even of one brother Rom. 14.3.4.13 how much more of such anb so many whole assemblies professing Christ in England Woe be vnto him which curseth where God curseth not Num. 23.8 As also indeed that blesseth where God blesseth not We desire you not to blesse vs in our evill but we vvarne you not to curse vs in our good vvhich indeed turneth vs not to any furtherance but to a great hinderance and stumbling block stopping vs from that syncerity vvhich els vve should dravve nearer vnto Blessed is he that iudgeth vvisely that is vvithout affection and partialitie even of him that is despised Better it is and more Christianlike even to offend in too much compassion and patience especially tovvardes so many hundreth thousands by vvhom vve knovv nought saue good in this poinct then to offend in too much rigor and severity and vniust anger Mat. 5.22 Hovvbeit this vvere not indeed to offend as hath ben above shevved And briefly in twoo vvords thus I conclude it farther that That faith and religion taught in the booke of Articles published 1562. maketh the people that beleeve and obey the same true Christians such as so living dying may be saved But our Church doeth so holde that faith Therefore they are true Christians The Proposition onely is doubted I had thought none so desperate as to deny it but lately I vnderstand you haue denyed it Hovvbeit for ansvver I referre you partly to that vvhich here hath bene said before especiallie to that vvhich is replyed to your Answer in the former Treatise which being well weighed I doubt not but all indifferent Christian mindes will acknowledge our publique Church assemblies in England to be true Christians Fran. Iohnson his Aunsvver YOu have now ten tymes reproched me and are not ashamed Whatsoever your self or others do think of your Churches estate God forbid that I should eyther iustify it or take away myne owne innocency in witnessing the truth against it Heare therefore and I will aunswer you once againe I will open my mouth for the truth against him that pleadeth for Baal The strength of the Reason standeth not as you ignorantlie suppose in the truth or falshood of the particulars you mention but in this that it is not so vvith choyse of Ministers in the Church as it is vvith choyse of parties in mariage For Infidels Idolaters godles persons c. may in that estate marry togeather but they are not in that estate capable of choosing and ioyning to a true Minister And therefore your Comparison doth not hold Yet the particulars do all of them availe much against you whatsoever you pretend to the contrary The first is directlie to the question For although now having seen my aunswer you speak of Christian people yet your comparison which was given me to aunswer spake at first of ignorant persons and those also such as might marry togeather Now you cannot deny but ignorant persons be they never so prophane and godles may marry one with another Yet have they not power in such case to chuse a Minister It is your self then that keep not the point but chop and chaunge the termes of your Argument as you think may best fit your turne And yet all this chaunging of your hew will avayle you nothing at all vnles you could prove 1. That your people in that Church-constitution are true Christians 2. That your Ministers so made and received are true Pastors But neither of these can you do For the first let the Reader see the former treatise where this point is purposelie handled And mynd here that your self confesse some of your Assemblies are all and wholy prophane godles persons Of which you say you speak not Yet tell vs whether you think such Assemblies be true Churches such people true Christians and their Ministers hauing like ordering of the Prelates and acceptance of the people true Pastors or not For the latter this is the treatise and place where you should prove it if you could But behold you do nothing lesse In the Comparison Pag 186. Nay even here you yeeld that your calling received from the Prelates is vnlawfull Yet this is the onelie maner of calling that your Church constitution appointeth That which you speak of your Assemlies not being all and wholy profane and godles persons is nothing to the purpose You might easilie have seen if you had mynded the words of my Reason that I sayd expresselie your Assemblies consist of all sorts of people that is some better some worse Yet seing the best among you remaine in confusion with the worst and all of you in bondage to Antichrist that even for this cause also you can not in that estate be deemed true Churches having power to chuse such Officers as Christ hath appointed for his Church And where you say whole companyes of Christians are not by such commixtures made vnholy prophane and godles it is wholy from the questioÌ„ The point is not
further nor otherwise D. B. The publisher to the Reader Section 2. Novv having vveighed and considered vvith my selfe the great ignorance and errors vvherevvith those of the separation aforesaid are and have bene lately carried avvaye namely to affirme That all that stande members of the Churches of Englande are no true Christians nor in state of salvation And such like most vngodly sentences vvhich vvould grieve any Christian soule once to thinke on much more to publish to the vievv of the vvorld And vveighing likevvise vvithall the greate vveakenes of manie Christians among vs vvho through vvant of experience or due consideration of things as they are may easelie by theyr delusions be dravvne avvay into those errors vvith them I haue therefore Asvvell in hope of reclaiming of the said parties from their said extremities vvhich novv I iudge the most of them for vvant of meanes see not As also for the staying of others from running into the same grievous excesse vvith them novv published this discourse to the vievv of the vvorld vvhich hath line buryed in the hands of some fevv Many being desirous of it vvho by reason of the largnes in vvriting out of the same could not obteyne it VVhere vnto I am so much the rather induced For that the Reasons herein by Maister Iacob alleadged haue by Gods blessing reclaymed many from their former errors and satisfied others vvho have bene doubtfull and subiect to fall into the same In the examining of vvhich Discourse I shall desire the Reader to observe a fevv notes for his better proffiting in the same 1. And First among the rest to note this as a token of the strange and obstinate dealing of Maister Iohnson and others of them viz. That heretofore vntill such time as the Argument hereafter mentioned was framed against them they neuer denyed That the doctrine and profession of the Churches of England vvas sufficient to make those that belâ—eued and obeyed them to be true Christians and in state of salvation But alvvayes held professed and acknovvledged the contrarie As by the publike confessions of themselves namely Maister Barrovv Maister Penry and Maister Iohnson himselfe in this discourse mentioned in Pag. 167. 168. appeareth But novve they seing That if they should acknovvledge the said Doctrines and profession to be sufficient to salvation That then this conclusion vvould of necessitie follovv that those that hold and practise them are a true * * VVhich yet Mr. Penâ—y coÌ„fessed see Pag. 168. Church And so theyr ovvn former iudgements should be crossed Rather I say then they vvould be dravvne to that They novve stick not to deny their ovvne confessions vvhich they thinke to be the faifest vvay for them and like vnnaturall children so vehemently hate contemne and dispise theyr mother vvho bare them nourished and brought them vp from vvhose brests they sucked that svveere milke of the meanes of euerlasting life and salvation if euer they had any tast of it at all Beeing notvvithstanding not abashed novve in a desperate manner in the hardnes of theyr heart to affirme ‡ ‡ VVhich appeareth generally by denying the Assumption of Mr. Iacobs particularly in these Pages 29. 139. 140 141. That none by the doctrine of the Churches of England can be a true Christian or saved But that they all worship God in vayne Are abolished from Christ Are Babilonians Idolaters departers from the faith worse then Infidels And such like most vnchristian sentences making them all one vvith the Church of Rome c. VVhich impious affirmations vvould cause any Christian heart to lament and bleed for grief VVhose vnchristian sentences and false and deceiptfull Reasons the very naming vvhereof vvere sufficient to refute them are most plainly taken avvaye and cleane ouerthrovvne by these brief Replyes of Maister Iacob vnto every of them vnto vvhich I referre yovv Onely this I adde vvith all vvhich I vvould desire might be noted That if they continevv in their former confessions That the Doctrines and profession of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation As they ought it being the very truth Then are they all in a most grievous schisme in so peremptorily condempning and separating from such true Christians and Churches And if they deny it as they have begonne to doe Then doe they runne headlong into an intollerable sinne and extremitie vvithout all vvarrant of Gods vvord And besides give iust occasion to be called fearfull * * VVhich name they vniustly give to those that iustly for this theyr extremity forsake their fellovvship Apostates in so vvholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth vvhich before they imbraced and acknovvledged The Aunswer All that the publisher hath published here is eyther some foolish conceits of his owne or some frivolous cavils and malicious calumniations against the truth and vs that professe it His conceits of his ovvne knovvledge and our ignorance of his ovvne strength others vveaknes of reclayming and satisfying many by publishing this discourse of the force and plainenes of Mr. Iacobs Replyes c. I omit according to the rule which saith * Prov. 26.4 Aunsvver not a foole according to his foolishnes least thou also be like him But his cavils and calumniations against the truth and vvitnesses thereof being also objected by Mr Iacob in his Replyes I have aunswered in the Treatise following according to the counsell of the same Wisdome which saith †Pro. 26.5 Aunsvver a foole according to his foolishnes least he be vvise in his ovvne eyes The Aunswer therefore to that which here he obiecteth of our assertions and sentences of our former and present acknovvledgement of the Church of England her profession doctrines members Assemblyes c. see it in the Treatise following Pag. 7. 16. 20. 22. 33. 60. 63. 73. 82. 86. 94. 103. 106. 116. 120. 147. 158. 162. 170. 177. 188. 196. 200. c. And here note withall 1. That in all these things we are still of the same mynd as heretofore Mr Barrovv Mr Penry my self and the rest of vs have ben So far are we from crossing denying or any way altering our former judgement and confession as he falsely pretendeth For which see Pag. 177. 178. 179. 180. 181. 2. That we do not hate contemne and despise theyr Church which he calleth the Mother that bare vs c. but inasmuch as we have ben members thereof heretofore in which respect she was then in deed our Mother but now do see her to stand in adulterous estate we do therefore plead vvith her that she may take away her fornications out of her sight and her adulteryes from between her brests And we go out of her that we may not partake in her sinnes and that we receyve not of her plagues Both which things we do at the commaundement of God and by warrant of his word wherein he hath straitly charged all his people thus for to walk Hos
2.2 Rev. 18 4. 3. That even of the Church of Rome it may in some respect be said The doctrines and profession of that Church are sufficient to salvation viz. if the truths they hold be considered alone and apart from theyr errors and corruptions and these other also not imputed vnto them For confirmation whereof see in the Treatise following Pag. 47. But now then I aske Are they of England therefore in a grievous schisme in so peremptory condemning and separating from such Christians and Churches Let him aunswer in his next 4. That this D. B. himself hath heretofore held and witnessed that the Church of England standeth in Antichristian estate vvorshippeth God in vayne putteth from her the truth and ordinance of Christ is in her constitution a daughter of Babylon the Mother of vvhoredomes c. and therefore if now he deny it as he hath begun is both runne headlong into an intolerable sinne and extremity without all warrant of Gods word and besides giveth just occasion to be called a fearfull Apostate in so wholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth which before he embraced and acknowledged Advisedly I say as this Preface and his daily practise declareth For advantage sake because he hath done it in loue of himself seeking his owne things not that which is Christs that he might have prayse of men and account in the world that he might be released from imprisonment where somtymes he hath ben a witnes of Christ in bands that he might enjoy the favour of his Frends that he might without feare and disturbance of the Prelates or theyr Officers †Rev. 13 1â— buy and sell that is keep his shop follow his trade make profit and advantage thereby for himself c. This by his course of dealing appeareth to be his case But both him and all others that eyther refuse or forsake the truth we leave vnto God who tryeth the hearts and searcheth the reynes and will give every man according to his works 5. That the word of God being on our side for our profession and practise as in the Discourse following is shewed we neyther do nor need regard this mans or any other theyr tales clamours abuses threats reproches sclaunders c. The mischief of theyr tongues God will bring vpon theyr owne heads if they repent not To him we commit it D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 3. 2. Secondly I would desier the Reader not to be caried away with the multitude of corruptions from the Question or matter in hand viz. Whether the good doctrines of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation in them that in simplicitie of heart beleeve imbrace them notwithstnding the multitude of errors and corruptions which Maister Iohnson repeateth to the contrary But to have an especiall regard vnto the same Which is the maine poinct that hath doeth altogeather deceive them viz. To have an eye to the corruptions in the Ministery worship governement of the Churches of England But never to looke vnto the nature force of them whether simply of their owne nature they overthrow faith Christianity or whether they be held of obstinacy a convicted conscience or not Therefore I pray you marke examine the errors which they reckon vp I desire the same also of them for whose good especially I published this Treatise And after due consideratioÌ„ see if those errors are simply of that nature which before we have noted If they be not as Maister Iohnson nor all the men in the world shall ever be able to prove they are Then do they gett no aduantage by those errors to this purpose which they vrge them for although they were Thrice as many * * NotvvithstaÌ„ding they are to many already more as they are Thus they may see how they have all this while ben deceived are now to seeke a new for defence of their separation For I hope they will not say That every error held in simplicitie by Christians doth cut them off from salvation in Christ Then should they condemne themselves vnlesse they hold Anabaptisticall perfectioÌ„ which surely though I thinke they hold not simply in their consciences Yet in their practize by condemning others so peremptorily that jump not even with them in every poinct they come very neare it But let this passe wee see then That of necessitie the nature of the errors must be regarded Euery sinne is not alike Me thinkes then that they should affoard that favour to others which they would have others affoard vnto them namely That as they would be accompted true Christians through their faith in Christ notwithstanding their errors which they must acknowledge * * Ps 19.12 1 Cor. 13.9.12 are infinite many in this life So they should accompt of others in the like case which even common sence humanitie would require them to graunt To impresse this thing a little better in their myndes I will a little turne my speach vnto them And I would pray them to call to mynde the many errors corruptions which they beare with amonge themselves lay them the errors with vs togeather they shall see their equality Some of you hold it vtterly simply vnlawfull to sweare by a booke to prove a will take an administratioÌ„ or sue in the Ecclesiasticall Courts To shut vp your shops vpon Holly dayes Festivall dayes c. And that these are the inuentions of Antichrist c. And others of you hold these things alâ—ogeather lawfull have doe put them in practise with many other such like things which I could name But these shall suffice Now the thing which I would froÌ„ hence note is this Can you among your selves beare with such weighty poinctes as these which you say are the inventions traditions of Antichrist that man of sinne which in your accompt are the ‡ ‡ I vvould you knevv the marks of the Beast a litle better marks of the Beast ††Rev. 14. which whosoever receiveth shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God shal be tormented in Hell fier for ever And will not your stomackes serve you to beare with the Churches of England in the like or rather in far lesser matters what equitie is there in this Surely you are for the most part so wholy given bend your wits myndes so much to looke into the estate of other men other Churches to apply the scriptures to them As you sildome or never look into your owne estate or apply the scriptures to your selves But looke vnto it it will be your decay in th' end You may fee then by your owne practize all errors are not alike Obiection But yet will some say are not all the scriptures commaundements of God fundamentall to be obeyed alike c. Let such consider of this scripture 1 Cor.
of themselues raylers murmurers malicious covetous presumptuous lascivious hypocriticall vnstable discontended and such like persons alledgeth the Prophecyes Scriptures examples which were before of them in Enochs tyme of the vnbeleuing Iewes the Sodomites evill Angels Cain Balaam Corah c. Iud. Epist vvith Gen. 3.1 and 4 3-16 and 19 1-25 Numb 14. and 16. and 22. chap. c. Now in these as in the rest and many other so alledged in the Scriptures may divers differences be observed Yet are they all notwithstanding fit and pertinent for that wherevnto they apply them Neyther can any be ignorant but that there will be difference eyther of time place cause sexte persons things maner or such like circumstance in any allegations and yet they be pertinent nevertheles It is not materiall then though some differences might be noted between the case of England and theyrs of whom those Scriptures speak seing notwithstanding they do fitly prove that for which they are alledged Let the Reader also mynd here an old Popish shift whereby they labour to turne away the evidence of any Scripture that is vrged against theyr corruptions viz by noting some difference between theyr case and such as the Scriptures alledged speak of This you may see every where in theyr Rhemish notes on the New Testament and in all the rest of theyr books and defence of theyr Church and religion But now further to make the abuse of his lips yet the more manifest marke that the very Scriptures here mentioned by himself speak not onely of the vvhole body and povver of Heathen and Antichristian religion as he pretendeth but of every particular ordinance and vncleane thing belonging therevnto For thus they speak expressely Tovvch no vncleane thing Keep all myne ordinances and all my iudgements Be ye cleane Partake not in her sinnes c. By all which is most plainely forbidden all maner of partaking not of the whole onely but of every parcell of Antichrists or any other false worship whatsoever As to the second difference which he noteth here of theyr vvilfulnes rebellion obstinacy partaking vvith the lavvfull and good things vsed among them c. it is handled and answered in the Treatise following Pag. 42. 43. 88. 108. 130. 132 161. 170. 171. 175. 180. The particulars which he citeth out of the Evangelists towching the Iewes are the speaches and testimony of reproof given vnto them by Christ whē now he threatned to take away from them his kingdome because of those sinnes and other the like among them Mat. 21.43 This man himself knoweth we never doubted but true Churches might fall into errour and the members thereof walk corruptly in which respect they are subiect to be reproved And yet notwithstanding the Church constitution and functions be lawfull and ioyned withall vntill they refuse the voyce of Christ and will not be reclaymed Rev. 2. and 3. Math. 21. and. 23. Act. 2. and 13. and 17. and. 28. chap. Wherevnto when once they come then are all taught to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation Act. 2.40 and 13.46.47 19.9 Esa 8 12.-16 Now if we may separate from such as have ben true Churches when they so fall into sinne and persist as is aforesayd notwithstanding that otherwise they professe many Doctrines of truth how much more may and ought we to separate from all false Churches which stād in the apostasy of Antichrist that Man of sinne howsoever they professe some truth withall 2 Thes 2 3-12 vvith Rev. 18.4 Ezech. 16.44 But of the difference both of the estate and dealing with true Churches and false compared together as also of the weaknes and falsehood of this māner of reasoning which here he vseth I have other where spokē sufficiently both in this Treatise following to which he referreth vs Pag. 92. 161. 195. and in another already published viz. A Treatise of the Ministery of England Pag. 45. 61 62. Note withall that none of the Evangelists neyther any other Scriptures do shew that Christ or the Prophets did at any tyme communicate with the Iewes in any evill but alway reproved them Whereas it is not possible that any should communicate with the Church of England though it be in theyr best things even of the Ministery of the Word Sacraments Prayer etc. but they must needs partake in evill As namely with the Hierarchy Leiturgy confusion and other sinnes of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Let him shew the contrary in any one thing among them iff he can And of this also see more hereafter Pag. 170. 171. 180. Finally let him tell vs if he have said any thing here which they in K. Henry the eight his dayes might not have alledged when the Popes supremacy with much of his religion besides was cast out of the Land and yet they oppugned the truth in many things and became drunken with the blood of the Martyrs notwithstanding D. B. his Preface to the Reader Section 5. Obiection But vnto the examples of these Churches me thinkes I heare already that common aunsvver and last refuge of theyrs vvhich is this Those Churches say they were in a true outward constitution And therefore were the true Churches of Christ notwithstanding those grosse errors which they held in other poincts of doctrine and practise But contrariwise say they the Churches of England have a false outward constitution and therefore they are no true Churches of Christ notwithstanding theyr truthes of doctrine c. Ansvver So the outvvard constitution is the maine poinct on vvhich they vvholy depend and for vvhich they vvholy condempne the Churches of England from being true Christians in state of salvation VVhich I doubt not plainly to take avvay 1 And first concerning the constitution of the Ievvish Churches If vve should examine the same vve should finde that it vvas as greatly altered and corrupted as is the constitution of the Churches of England Tvvo high Priests having by simonie crept in at once vvhich vvas vnlavvfull and contrarie to Gods ordinance notvvithstanding their gloses in their other ‡ ‡ 9. Reasons vvritinges to allovv them to be lavvfull by * * 2 Chrō 24 2.3 Zadok and Abimelech and by ††2 King 24.18 Seruiah the chief Prieste Zephaniah the Second vvhich make against themselues For there vvas never but one high Priest as they confesse * * Ansvver to Mr Hild. Pag. 50. Ergo not tvvo as here vvere the rest vvere indeed inferior to him And yet amongst those there vvas a chiefly also vvho vvere called sometimes Second Priests or Priests of the Second order 2. King 23.4 and sometimes chief Priests Math. 27.1 These Scriptures being compared vvith those in the margin by them cited doe make it more plaine Novv if the chief offices vvere so corrupted and altered through couetousnes as the Histories make mention It is not likely that the inferior offices did remaine sound but vvere asmuch or more altered The Priests generally being such couetous
false Church And contrarily Thirdly I aske Is not the Hierarchy and Church constitution of Antichrist the most detestable anarchy of Sathan that ever was And doth not Sathan far more commonly and readily part with his false doctrine then with it when he must needs part with the one 2 Thes 2.9 and yet can retayne the other He is subtill and of long experience he can mynd and knoweth full well that so long as he holdeth his owne constitution of a Church he can quickly vppon any opportunity bring in his doctrine agayne even with a trice For why He hath both the people ready for the receyving of it being yet still in the confusion and bondage of Antichrist and his owne Ministery also to be imployed in the publishing and serving thereof theyr Offices Callings Ministrations Maintenance being all ready at hand and fit for the purpose Whereas on the contrary when the false constitution is abolished then false doctrine wanteth both hee woonted place of receipt and her nimble wings by which she should spread and fly abroad And here I could alledge for proof hereof the prefer Ministery and estate of the Church of England which being of Antichrist Sathans graundchild and he now having spyed his tyme and found some opportunity beginneth apace by this meanes to bring in agayne such doctrines of his as had for a tyme ben suppressed As namely Free-vvill Auricular Confession Christs soule to descend into Hell The Church of Rome to be a true Church c. Witnesse the Books and publik Sermons of Bilson Bancroft Hooker Androes Harsenet Barret and other the Priests and Prelates of that Church the Marchants of these and the like wares off the Beast in Court City Countrey Vniversity and where not The same thing you may mynd also thus So long as the house standeth still and is furnished with servants and Ministers it is ready for the implements and furniture though removed for a tyme to be brought in agayne and soone to be set vp in theyr woonted place And if you would see an example of these things yet in memory look but at the Churches estate in K. Edwards and Q. Maryes dayes compared together The popish constitution of the Church being not abolished in King Edwards tyme how soone was the Popes doctrine yea and his supremacy in Queen Maryes dayes spread and acknowledged throughout the Land Yet the same doctrines of truth were in K. Edwards tyme published and receyved which now are in England And very like also that it was then with more zeale and love of the truth thē now it is specially considering the generall coldnes of men and the cruell persecution of the truth to which this age synce is come Mynd further that the Offices houses and maintenance of the Fryers and Nunnes being before in the time of K. Henry the eight quite taken away they were not able in all Q. Maryes raigns to reare them vp agayne No albeit they iudged them lawfull and necessary aswell as the other poynts of Popery and did also very earnestly desier and labour to have them reestablished So great a matter it is to have a thing abolished in the whole constitution thereof Even as when an house is rased and pulled downe to the very foundation And here vpon this occasion let me also aske Whether if the Callings and Livings of the Prelates and Priests together with the Idoll Temples and confusion of all maner people in the body of the Church now had in England were so dealt with as the Abbats Monks Abbeyes and Nunryes then were there would not fewer Iesuites and Seminaryes come into the Land Popery lesse increase treason against her Maiesty be lesse attempted and finally all the meanes and hope for the full replanting of Antithrists religion agayne in that Church be vtterly removed and taken away Let this Scribe then go and perswade such as himself that the outward constitution of the Church is but as the tithing of Mynt Annise and Commin c. Whosoever have theyr 〈◊〉 exercised to discerne good and evill will playnely see that notwithstanding any thing he pretendeth yet it is and ought to be accounted among the waighty matters of the Law of God Yea that it is of far other importance and consequence then most men think or will yet be perswaded albeit even experience the Mistresse of fooles might in all this tyme and tryall have taught them sufficient if ynough were ynough for men In cases of Religion Now for his Reason here any may see by that which hath ben sayd that it is very frivolous and of no waight at all The Proposition or first part hath nothing for the ground of it but that which is in question and neyther is alway true nor can be yeelded vnto for very great and waighty causes here before declared Vnto which adde these also 1. That many errors in doctrine are and may be far lesse then the errors of the outward constitution when they are truly compared together 2. That the true outward constitution of the Church alway implyeth both a separation of the people from the World and the joyning of them together in the fellowship of the Gospell and both these to be voluntary Which particulars being considered with the former will teach him not barely to set downe but duly to prove the Proposition in his next Reply The Assumption or second part of the Reason is in some fence true in some sence false and in both against himself and their Churches estate When Churches are set in the constitution and way of Christ if afterward they fall into some errour of doctrine they are notwithstāding for the former to be reputed true Churches vntill being admonished they refuse to heare the voyce of Christ and to yeeld to the truth Thus the Assumption is true and of vs confessed by the example of the Churches of the Iewes c. But when theyr case cometh to be such as they will rather abide in errour then obey the truth and voyce of Christ this so wilfull persisting simply overthroweth such a company from being a true Church in such estate And thus the Assumption is false and so proved to be by the example of the said Churches And both wayes it is agaynst him and theyr Church as will yet further appeare by that which is now to be spoken of his question wherein he would be resolved He asketh VVhat if a company of Arrians Anabaptists or Papists should be gathered and established in a true outvvard constitution and still retayne theyr fundamentall errors before named VVhether then their outvvard constitution should make them a true Church Yea or no. I aunswer 1. Not onely false constitution but false doctrine also retayned make a false Church If it were so then that they could have a true constitution as he supposeth yet by reason of theyr false doctrine they should be a false Church 2 I aske also of him Whether these companyes of whom he speaketh
and vndersong M. Cranmer M. Ridley c. as if for our faith and worship of God we should turne from the liuing God to dead men Esa 8.20 from the law and testimony of the Lord to the opinions and aberrations of Man I might besides wish the Reader to mind the vnsauerie salt of your raising and reprochfull speaches scattered throughout your book but I omit it And now I come to the particular examination of this Replie of yours You say He that hath but half an eye may see the meaning of the vvordes of your Proposition c. Well Mr. Iacob then your self hauing two eyes might easily see I omitted the Proposition not for the darknes or doubtfulnes of the words but because it yet appeared not how your self vnderstood them whether so as you make the Proposition general admitting no exception or particular and to be restrained And why do you not yet tel vs how you take it Are you afraid to say either the one or the other either that it is general or that it is particular If you make it general admitting no limitation then is your Proposition false Page 5. as I showed in my last aunswer which you cannot gainesay If it be particular then is your Syllogisme a meer Sophisme your Argument of no moment neither in any Mood or Figure How think you Mr. Iacob Is not your reason very sound and Clerklike But you perhaps with two eyes see not so much as others may with half an eye Touching the Assumption to follow your words in order I showed that wheras in the Proposition you spake of a companie so gathered togeather you should for your purpose haue assumed that your Assemblies be companies so gathered And tel me ought you not so to haue don seeing you make but one Syllogisme If you ought is it vvrangling to shew what is wanting in your Reason If you ought not why haue you now made an addition to your Assumption which was not before Is it because I should not stumble at a straw or is it not because the Argument is vnsound without it though you note the contrarie in the margent If it be sound without this why doe you not so proue it If it be not why doe you not confesse it Nay why are you both so conceited in your self and so desirous to blind your Reader as when the fault is shewed you yet you wil not onely not accknowledg it but lay the blame vpon him that would draw you to see it This in deed is not to stumble at a straw but wilfully to fall downe when you might be holpen vp Now although you be vnworthy of any further help Yet because I I would haue you see it I wil once againe labour to make it plaine vnto you if I can beat it into your head You make but one Syllogisme and in it you conclude your publique Assemblies to be true Churches Now you know I suppose that alwaies in a good Argument whatsoeuer is in the Conclusion must needes be in one of the premisses before But in yours it is not so Your conclusion is of your publique assemblies and yet you neuer spake of them before in either of the premisses Can you by this perceive how extremely faulty and vnsound your Argument is But you think to help your self by saying you meant so much Sure you are neare driuen M. Iacob For what wrangler could not so help out any matter Yet here you stay not Euen your words you say imply as much And do they indeed Tell me then whether here you include and defend all the publique Assemblies of the Land as they now stand or but some of them whether those that haue dumbe Ministers aswell as those that haue Preachers whether those that haue non residents aswell as those that haue their Incumbents whether the Cathedral Churches aswell as the Parishes For all these are by Law Churches among you the Cathedrall the Parishionall those that haue non residents or humbe dogs with fower Sermons a yeare Pluralities c. Then tell me whether all these Assemblies of yours be companies by Lavv gathered together in that profession practise wherof you speak Besides where the words in your Proposition were of companies so gathered together c. and you in your addition to the Assumption haue in steed thereof companies gathered together in the doctrines c. why are you so vnconstant and fearefull in your words why do you not keep the same termes why made you not the addition as was showed you it ought to haue ben Did you think that then I would and might the more call vpon you for proof thereof That belike was the matter For in deed I do and must needs so much the more cal for it And how will you ever prove it that your Assemblies are companies so gathered together that is by a free voluntary profession of the truths among you * Act. 2.41 11.24 Psal 110.3 Esa 44.5 2 Cor. 6.17.18 and 9.13 Zach. 8.21 23. 1 Thes 1.6 such as is in true CHRIstians and in the manner of gathering euery true Church when as you are by Lavv compelled so to professe or rather to submit to that profession Yea and by compulsion of Lavv are gathered not only in and vnto those truths but in and to Antichristian errors which cannot stand therewithall I pray you M. Iacob iustifie by the Scriptures such profession to be that which is in true Christians and such gathering to be that which is in true Churches Next where you charge me with strange dealing for saying your vvriting declared that you so took the Proposition as vvhatsoeuer ‡ These vvords among them Mr. Iacob leaueth out among you be iointly together held ioyned vvith that vvhich othervvise might make a true Christian or true Church yet notvvithstanding you are so to be reputed as if there vvere no such additions or commixtures First speak plainely whether you doe so take your Proposition or not Whatsoeuer you aunswer it will be against your self and manifest the weaknes of your Argument as I haue declared a litle before Secondly why wrote you not all my words but left out som of them was it because you thought that would haue cleared me of strange dealing and left it vpoÌ„ your own head Thirdly where you say in all your vvriting you haue no such vvord no syllable no letter sounding to that sence Lift vp your eares Mr Iacob and tel me how these wordes of yours do sound in your hearing †M Iacobs 1. Reply to the 1. Reason follovving Christ and some outward ceremonies and orders of Antichrist are joined together among vs vvhich things yet vve think to be Christs ovvne Againe The ‡ His 1. Reply to the 4. Reason fâ—llovving outvvard manner of calling to the Ministery and some outvvard ceremonies vsed by Mahomet and the Pope doe not destroy faith true Christianity And yet more plainely when you say *
doctrine Now if you cannot prooue your Assemblies to be such you may see your own witnesses euen your owne doctrine and book giue verdict against you If you can prooue them to be such where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in this your owne description of a visible Church H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 1. Excep THis your first Exception is the 19. Article of this very book vvhich vvee alleadge vvherein a visible Church is described to be a Congregation where the pure word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all those things that of necessitie are requisite Novv this description you reiect not but our practise say you is contrary and therefore vve haue no true visible Churches nor Christians I ansvver vvherein is it contrarie in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite doth not all this Christian vvorld see and confesse that our publique practise is agreeable to our profession in that book Nay say you but proue you your assemblies to be such and if you can proue them where and what are your proofs if you doe not you are confuted A vvorthy confutation sure and very Clerklike As if my Tenaunt should denie me rent for my house and land yea and goe to Lavv vvith me for the fee simple vvhich he hath holden in ferme of me these 40. yeares and I haue hetherto quietly enioyed from my Auncestors time out of minde Novv he suing me at lavv for that vvhich I thus possesse saith proue your right to this land vvhich you haue if you can vvhat and vvhere be your proofes let me see them Or els I your Tenaunt vvill haue it This vvere goodly dealing vvere it not and very lavvfull EueÌ„ so doe you asking proofes of vs for that vvhich vve possesse haue possessed before you made any question about it nay you your selues held part of this possession of vs and vvith vs till yesterday vvhen you began first to lay claime in this sorte to the vvhole Novv your reason is let vs prooue it to be ours where be our proofs Or els you will not accknowledg vs any longer see I pray you your owne equity If this suffice not to make you desist I leaue it to the Iudges to giue sentence Secondly note further Our Article saith A Church is where the word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all things that of necessitie are requisite Where vveâ— plainly insinuate that many errours may be added and truthes wanting in a visible Church but nothing which is absolutely necessarie Now what doth our practize in Preaching or Sacraments want that is absolutely necessarie without which there cannot be any true preaching or Sacraments at all shevv it vs because vve see it not our selues I assure you vntil then your first reason hath no reason in it Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply vpon the 1. Excep HOw fit or vnfit the description is I neither did nor doe examine Onely because it is your owne profession and your practise is coÌ„trary vnto it I did from hence take the first Exception requiring of you to proue your Assemblies to be such or els to know that your owne doctrine is a witnes against your selues Now in your Reply haue you according to the particulers of that description iustified your Church assemblies Nothing lesse Let this therefore be first obserued But what then haue you done First pretending as if you repeated our exception and your owne description you leaue out diuers particulers of speciall moment there expressed As first where the visible Church is described to be a congregation of faithfull men you leaue out these wordes of faithfull men belike knowing that your Congregations which are holds of all foule spirits and cages of euery vncleane and hatefull bird Reuel 18.2 cannot therefore iustly be accounted congregations of faithfull men Secondly where the description speaketh of the Sacraments to be duely ministred you leaue out this word duely because it crosseth your womens Baptisme priuate Communion receiuing of the most prophane and their seed among you c. Lastly where in the description it is required both for preaching the pure word and due administration of the Sacraments that they be don according to Christes ordinance you leaue out these words according to Christes ordinance belike because this clause quite overthroweth both your Antichristian Prelacy from whih al the inferior Ministers among you receiue power and authority to preach and minister the SacrameÌ„ts and your Preisthood and Deaconry wherein you all administer and your stinted imposed prayers exhortations crosses in the forehead questions to Infantes vse of the same wordes in English in ministring the Lords Supper which the Papists vsed and still vse in Latine not retaining the words of Christes institution and such like Thus hauing left out such particulers as were of speciall moment against you yet you demaund vvherein your paactize is contrary to your profession and description of a visible Church in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite We aunswer in all the particulers of that description aforesayd For first your Church-assemblies are not congregations of faithfull men but a confusion of all manner of people though neuer so wicked and prophane The ‡ D. VVâ—iâ—g booke pag 176. and 178 Prelates and Formalists affirm that your Church is full of Atheistes Papistes Idolaters Drunkards Whoremongers and such like The * Sermon on Rom. 12 pag. 65. and 66. Demonstration in the preface forward Preachers likewise that in your Church are svvarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erronious and heretical Sectaries Witches Charmers Sorcerers Murtherers Theeues Adulterers Lyars c. Finally that a man may be any thing among you sauing a sound Christian These things being so as both your estate and writings beare witnes iudge your selues whether your Assemblies can be accounted Congregations of faithfull men or no which is the first point of the description aforesaid Secondly in the same description is required That the pure vvord of God be preached according to Christes ordinance But with you are allowed besides the word of God the Apocrypha books and in steed of preching the word the reading of Homilies as may appeare in that ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1502. book of Articles alledged by your self Yet who knoweth not that in those bookes are diuers vntruths errors contradictions blasphemies and such like So farre are they from being the pure word of God or agreeing therewith Moreouer when and where the word is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ And the Ministers that preach it do in your constitution alway stand subiect to be silenced suspended excommunicated and degraded by the Prelates and Ordinaries to whom when you are made Priests you promise and when you enter vpon a benefice you sweare Canonicall obedience Neither are you suffered any further to preach the word and truth of God then agreeth
Church of England the abominations aforesayd concerning the outward order and gouernment of the Church whatsoever trueths they hold besides yet can they not by the word of God be deemed truely to hold the Lord Iesus their Prophet Priest King in such constitution of a Church Neither therefore can they in this estate by the vvord of God be accounted true Christians nor the true constituted Churches of Christ And this is all the question between vs. 7. Lastly let the godly and indifferent Reader iudge whether it will not follow vpon your aunswer in this place First that the Scriptures are not sufficient for the building vp and guidance of the Church here on earth Which is contary to 1 Tim. 3.15 2 Tim. 3.16 Deut. 12.32 1 Cor 4.6 Rev. 22.18.19 Secondly that the man of God can not by the Scriptures be made absolute and fully furnished to euery good worke Which is contrary to 2 Tim. 3.17 1 Tim. 3.15 Pro. 2.1.9 Psal 119.105.113 Thirdly that Christ himselfe in vvhome the treasures of vvisdome and knovvledge are hid yet was so foolish carelesse and vnfaithfull as having an house and kingdome which is his Church he hath not in his word appointed vnto it any Offices Lawes and Orders for the due governing and ordering thereof Which is contrary to Col. 2.3 Heb. 3.1.2.3 Esay 33.22 Ephe. 4.11.12.13 1 Cor. 11. 12. 14. Rom. 12.3.4.5.6.7.8 Mat. 28.20 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Finally that the Hierachy Worship Sacramēts Traditions Canons and vvhatsoeuer constitutions of Antichrist concerning the outvvard orders and gouernement of the Church being appointed by the Church and Magistrate are to be accounted Christes ovvne Which is contrary to 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 Psa 94.20 119.21.113.128 Rev. 9.1.2.3 14.9 11. O shameles impietie This doubtles is that strange passion and meere desperatenes wherewith you do hereafter vniustly charge vs which we will not here prosecute as it deserveth but exhort you onely to take heed least that vvo come vpon you which is written VVoe vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darkenes for light and light for darknes that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter VVo vnto them that are wise in their owne eyes and prudent in their owne sight Esay 5.20.21 H. Iacob his 2 Reply to the 2. Excep IN this your defence of your second Exception it pittieth me to see your extreame folly which is the more miserable because it appeareth to be not of weaknes but of wilfulnes You would know of vs if we hold Christ to be out Prophet Priest and King if we professe to obey him in his ordinances in no other I ansvvered vve do cōstantly professe so as vve professe so vve practise But to make our profession and practise in this poinct more manifest I noted hovv our state meaneth Christ to be our Prophet Priest and King and hovv he is to be obeyed viz. That the vvritten vvord ought of necessity to shevv vs our invvard and meer spirituall beleif and obedience As for the outvvard Church order our state holdeth that it is arbitrary to be appoincted and abrogated againe at the liking of the Church and Magistrate And that the worde no vvhere forbiddeth this libertie Where note in this explication tvvo thinges First it is foule vvrong to our Churches and to my vvordes to say as you do That they meane no outward orders at all be matters of faith or constant in the Scriptures Nay it vvas neuer doubted but to preach to pray to administer Sacraments c. though external yet are perpetuall things and necessarie and vnchangeable by the Scriptures My expresse vvords and our Churches meaning is That any reasonable kinde of Church-gouernement and rites and orders are arbitrary and changeable no matters of faith nor written in the Scriptures And yet still Christ to be our onely and absolute King and Prophet neuerthelesse Whosoeuer doth vrge vpon our Churches further or on my wordes doth slaunder and cauill and malitiously depraue them and nothing else Secondly note in my explication that I iustifie not this opinion of our state but I say Thus to beleeue and practise simply destroyeth no mans saluation in Christ which you denying generally and vehemently in your sixt aunsvver you deny directly Maister Cranmer c. to haue held the foundation or to be saued vvherein you openly professe and proclaime that second generall poinct vvhich in the beginning I charged you vvith That all Churches and Christians here in King Edvvards time and namely Maister Cranmer Ridley Latimer Hooper Philpot Saunders Rogers Tailor c. held not Christ their Prophet Priest and King and so consequently they vvere lims of Antichrist for they bare his marke euen to their deaths and no true Christians Alas to see hovv malice and preiudice hath blinded you Is there not greater cause for vs to cry and say against you O shamelesse mouth O vnchristian hart vvhich termes you vainely charge vpon me Is this you that white the Toombs of those Martirs yet in fine condempne them for no true Christians nor their Assemblies for Churches You adde a clause They that professe and practise as doth the Church of England c. If you meane hereby to put a difference betwene those good mens holding this opinion and our Churches now Yea betwene your owne lately and ours novv speake out vvhat is it You can imagine none but this Those good men Maister Cranmer Ridley c. and your selfe of late held these very same errors of the outvvard Church order vvhich vve do But they and you did it seemeth of simplicity vve malitiously they of ignorance vve of plaine obstinacy and hauing a convicted and seared conscience vvhereby they and you might be true Christians for all these errors but vve novv cannot be so If this be your meaning then you graunt vs our Assumption against vvhich all your dispute here is bent You graunt it I say That the whole doctrine as it is by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Secondly we now erre not in these poincts of simplicity but of wilfulnes and malice Say you so Speake that plaine then Our whole assemblies all and euery of our assemblies of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience Are you sure of this Doe you know euery mans hart and conscience so well If you do then you say somwhat indeed But you are then neere as wise as God himselfe to know mens hearts so perfectly whose faces you neuer saw You will say you know diuers whome you dare say are convicted in conscience That is much also to affirme But if you do that serueth not your turne vnlesse all be so conuicted Christ knew a great many in the Church of the Iewes yea of the learnedst and cheifest in authority that were conuicted in conscience that he was the Christ who blasphemed in denying him and yet the Assēblies then were not conuicted they still were true Churches
before But now because you bid me speak out what difference I put between your Churches and the Martyrs as also between you and my self holding these things of late with you hearken and I will tell you againe First for the Martyrs in former times mark these differences Differences betvveene the Martirs and Church of Engl. 1. Greater light of the truth is now come into the world then was in those daies but you loue darkenes rather then light For still you walk in darknes Ioh. 3.19 Ephes 5.11 2. They witnessed against the abominations of Antichrist then called in question to the losse of their libertie and lives Your Church doth not so against the remnants of Poperie now cōtroverted but do either openly defend them or fearefully submit vnto them 3. They consisted not of swarmes of Atheists adulterers drunkards and all sorts of people good and bad even knowen wicked ones mixed together in one body as your Church doth 4. Such of them as were Ministers were degraded from their Antichristian functions so are not yours 5. They died not members of Antichrists Church nor for any error they held but for the truth You stil remaine members of Antichistian Churches both withstanding the truth and maintaining errors 6. They were and died members of a true visible Church viz that persecuted Church in Queen Maries daies which was separated from the rest of the Land as from the world and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary submission therevnto though in that time of ignorance they had their wants and errors You continew members of a false constituted Church vnseparated from the world yeelding subiection to Antichristian enormityes against the ordinances of Iesus Christ 7. They refused not the truth offred neyther resisted those that did iustly reprove theyr errors but your Church doth both as appeareth by your continuall practise and by the books and Acts of Parliament made openly and with authority against vs for witnessing the truth 8. Your Prelats Priests and people that is your Churches in your estate are no Martyrs but children of them which killed the Martyrs and do at this day fill vp the measure of your forefathers persecuting to death such as haue the testimony of Iesus This did not the Martyrs Are not you then the men that white the toombes of the Martyrs which were in former tymes and yet your selves imprison banish and kill the witnesses of Iesus that are among you at this day Take heed you hearden not your hearts but tremble at your fearefull estate and please not your selues in vnrighteousnes by the error of any neither blesse your selves still in iniquitie Hitherto of the difference between the Martyrs and your Churches Now for my self I confesse as I did * Pag. 8. before of the Martyrs that whiles I was Minister and member of your Church in that constitution I stood in Antichristian estate Yet doubt I not but euen then being of the elect of God I was partaker through faith of the mercy of God in Christ to saluation And this I hope is the case of divers among you But for my self I haue now the more assurance in that God hath both drawen me out of that Antichristian estate giuing me to see and to forsake it and hath planted me in his true Church and household giuing me to receiue his truth in much affliction with ioy of the holy Ghost 1 Thes 1.6 But as for you in your estate besides that yet you are not members of any true visible Church you do moreover abide in grosse confusion false Ministery Antichristian worship and other abominations by the word of God already discovered Now whiles you thus remaine you cannot in that estate approve your selves to have the promise of saluation whereof by the word of God you can be assured vntill you depart out †Rev. 18.4.5 Act. 2.40.47 Micah 2.10 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Ephe. 2.12.19 of that Babylō and save your selues from that froward generatiō being also by the Lord added to his true Church Which mercy I hope God daily doth and will vouchsafe many among you belonging to his election Thus you see how notwithstanding any thing we eyther do or can acknowledge touching the Martyrs or ourselves heretofore yet still we affirme and prove your estate to be Antichristiā So far are we frō graunting your Assumption as here you fancy with your self Your vaine questions Whether your whole assemblyes all and every of your assemblyes erre of wilfulnes and of a conuicted conscience whether we know the heart and conscience of men c. How fond and friuolous are they All of you erre by your owne graunt Whether any of you do it with a convicted conscience let God iudge who knoweth the heart Your self it seemeth deny not this to be the case of some among you Howsoever seeing you confesse that you erre why do you and the rest being so perswaded stil abide in error Is it because you †Ioh. 3.19 love darknes more then light Or because ‡ Act. 28.26 27. when you see yet you wink with your eyes least you should convert to the Lord and be healed If you would not leaue such as you imagine see it not how wil you ever know whether they that refuse do see it or not And why have you not al this time made it knowen to them and donne what lyeth in you to draw them from error Or having done it and finding them obstinate in evill yea persecuters of the truth revealed why have you not after the ‡ Act. 2.40.41 13.45.46.51 18.6 and 19.9 28.24 c. example of the Apostles separated from such and taught others to do the like Above all why plead you for their estate to be good warrantable in the way of salvation notwithstanding their errors and abominations Is not this to dawbe with vntempered morter Is it not to prophesie peace to the wicked and to promise them life to sow pillowes vnder their elbowes and to strengthen their hands in evill that they should not returne from their wicked way Ier. 23.16.17 Ezech. 13. Chap. Mal. 2.17 Where you say if we knew some convicted in conscience yet it serueth not our turne vnles all be so conuicted sure you mind not what you speak Did Christ ever give such a rule to his Church Or should there ever be Church separated from the world if this course were kept Besides what meane you by all being convicted Whether all in a house or all in a towne or all in a kingdome or all in the world Whether all of echser men and women of all ages yong and old of all estates hy and low rich and poore bond and free c. What also by being convicted Whether when sufficient is showed to convince men though they see it not or when they see it yet acknowledg it not or when they see and acknowledg it yet notwithstanding persist in their former estate or if vnto all these
notwithstaÌ„ding God saveth some LutheraÌ„s Anabaptists Papists erring in the points aforesaid If you denie it let vs have a sound aunswer to that profession of the Papists touching Christs Mediation which by themselves is mentioned in their Annotations vpon the new Testament where they professe that they hold * Rhemâ—â— Annot. vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Christ by nature to be truely both God and man to be that one eternall Priest and Redeemer which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse hath reconciled vs to God and payed his bloud as a ful and sufficient raunsome for all our sinnes himself without need of any redemption never subiect to possibility of sinning againe to be the singular Advocate and Patrone of mankind that by himself alone and by his owne merites procureth all grace and mercy to mankind in the sight of his Father none making any intercession for him nor giuing any grace of force to his prayers but he to all none asking or obteyning eyther grace in this life or glory in the next but by him This doe even the Papists professe which you are well to mind Now though with it they hold divers fundamentall errors as in that and other their writings may be seen by which the multitude of them is turned out of the way of truth and salvation yet doubt I not but by this faith God hath saved some of them and mo at the first creping in of that Churches apostasie then since who in simplicity so beleev as is here set downe never hearing of the other opinions to be errors nor withstanding any truth revealed vnto them Now of the LutheraÌ„s and Anabaptists I hope so much the better as they hold mo truths and fewer errors then the Papists But to let those alone what say you to such of the Fathers of the Greek Church as held Freewill an errour which ‡ D. VVhiâ— book pa. 83. your selves teach and have published to be fundamentall and of it self damnable Or rather what say you to the Israelites in Egypt who though they were * Exod. 4.22.23 Gods church yet sinned in points by your owne account fundamentall even with ‡ Ezech. 20.6.7.9 the Idols of Egypt Will you say they were all condemned Either therefore we must discerne between the errors themselves what they are in their owne nature being so considered and between the persons holding them of ignorance and weaknes what mercy God may shew them in Christ or els you will coÌ„demne all of every Church wheresoever any fundamentall errors have crept in being through ignorance generallie received and so inwrap the Martyrs in like condemnation with their persecutors To give instance but of Iohn Hus it cannot be denied but he and they who martyred him agreed both in one touching the Masse transubstantiation c. Yet was Hus a faithfull witnes of Christ in the truth he saw and his adversaries vassals of Antichrist that sonne of perdition This I trust will suffice for the present to cleare the Martyrs of that vniust condemnation which you insinuate against them Now vpon this occasion note also that not onely some who erre in fundameÌ„tall points may be saved as is proved alreadie but ‡ 1 Cor. 6.9.10 some who erre not in any fundamentall point as you take it yet shall perish notwithstanding But of this see more hereafter in the handling of the 7. Reason following Further where I said that when Mr. Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. dyed Martyrs for the truth of Christ they neither had themselves nor joyned in communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministerie now pleaded for You insult greatly as if I spake knowen falshoods But stay a while Maister Iacob and see if it be not your self that make no conscience of vntruths First why ‡ Pag. 36. left you out those wordes of mine when they dyed Did you perceive that these words make the case plaine and witnes the truth with me against your assertion Or know you not that all the Martyrs then were first excoÌ„municate out of that Church and if they were Ministers degraded also from their Ministerie afore they were put to death Must it not needs then be true which I sayd that when they dyed they neither had nor ioyned in communion with such as had the Prelacy and Ministery now pleaded for Yea say not the Martyrs themselves and the book of Acts and MonumeÌ„ts as much To name but one Laurence Saunders when the Bishop of London had disgraded him said vnto him ‡ Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 1301. â— I thank God I am none of your Church And this was the case of them al being likewise dealt with as that book witnesseth Your Exception that Mr. Cranmer and Mr. Ridley stood vpon their right to their Bishopricks is of no waight against that I sayd It is not vnknowen that men do often stand against the vniust dealing of their adversaries in such things as notwithstanding they are willing inough to leave Whether it were so or not with them God knoweth Of this I am sure that where I spake of their not hauing you do in your Reply in steed thereof speak of renouncing And so you change my speach Which is not good though it be your vsuall dealing But yet by this appeareth that you can prove no vntruth in my speach howsoever you pretend and would gladly do it For if you could what needed you so alter and pervert the sence of my wordes And for my self if I had meant that Mr. Cranmer and Mr. Ridley had renounced as you pretend I could have joyned them with others in the sentence going before where I spake of Mr. Latimers forsaking his Prelacy which your self do here confesse to be true Besides I spake of the time when they dyed Martyrs you of the time before that But now what will you say to Mr. Ridley who as the * Act. and Mon. edit 5. p. 1604. a. storie witnesseth at his degradation being bid to put on the surplus refused to do it and when they did put it vpon him with “ This vvas because he had ben a popish priest al the trinckets appertaining to the Masse did vehemently invâ—y against the Romish Bishop and all that foolish apparell calling him Antichrist and the apparell foolish and abominable yea to fond for a vice in a play This giveth more evidence of renouncing then of approving those things which before time he had liked to much Yet I denie not but even then he might be ignorant of the vnlawfulnes of the Prelacy as since that time God hath revealed it by his word and by that meanes it may be did like and stand for it more then otherwise he either ought or would have done But you say whosoever were Ministers then of the Prelates ordination they never renounced it though they dyed Maryrs If this were true and of waight you might by the same reason as well plead for the Romish Priests at this day
the offences faults and defaults committed in their Parishes against the foresayd Articles c. 91. Finally the imprisoning banishing and killing of such as renounce or witnes against these abominations aforesayd and the rest yet retayned among them Thus being constreyned we haue reckoned vp divers Antichristian enormityes still remayning in your Church Now let the Reader iudge of your aunswer how fond it is and of your estate whether it be not more like the blacke Raven with a white bill then the white Swan vvith a black and liker †Rev. 9.7 13. â—â— a beast with a mans face then a man with a woodden legge By this also appeareth that the speach is not vnproper as you except but pertinent and proper fitly declaring your estate when I said you ioyne Christ and Antichrist together And therefore your aunswer here is frivolous and of no weight Next you come to the proof of the Proposition which was confirmed by these scriptures 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16 with Ezek. 43.8 2 King 17.33.34.40.41 The Proposition which I proued by these Scriptures was this That vvhich ioyneth Christ and Antichrist together can not make a true Christian Nowe let all men iudge Whether these Scriptures doe not so evidentlie proue this Proposition as none can denie it but such as are wilfully blinded and striue against the light of theyr owne consciences But what say you to them Forsooth that they are wholy mismatched And why so Because the ioyning there forbidden is vnto such Idolatrie as can nor stand by any meanes with Christian faith and breaketh most directlie the First coÌ„mandement whereas your transgression is but against the Second and may stand with true faith as was in Cranmer c. First this answer of yours concerneth the AssumptioÌ„ whereas those scriptures were the proof of the Proposition But to let this passe let vs consider the answer it self These Scriptures say you forbid ioyning to such Idolatrie as cannot stand with Christian faith and breaketh most directlie the First commaundement 1. If this were so what then Doe they not therfore forbid ioyning to Antichristian idolatrie and that false worship which breaketh the second commandement 2. Secondly you cannot deny but as we iudge of your way and estate so it is a transgression against the Second commaundement Now Samuell saith â— Sam. 15.23 Rebellion is as the sinne of vvitchcraft and transgression is vvickednes Idolatry See then what aduantage you get by your owne answer 3. Thirdly as the Pagans Idolatrie breaking the First commaundement cannot stand with true christian faith so neither can the idolatrie and false worship of Antichrist breaking the Second To that of Maister Cranmer c. is alreadie answered Wherevnto also may be added that your case now is nothing so as theirs was then both for that they suffered to death for the trueth they sawe and because the things now controverted were not then so called in question and convinced by the scriptures as now they haue ben neither were then by them so resisted and persecuted as they are by you now adayes even to hands bannishment and death it self Otherwise we might iustifie the callings and estate of the Monks Fryars and of the most Popish Priests and Prelates and the having of communion with them in that estate because diuers such haue ben Martyrs and layd downe their lives for the trueth they faw who yet neuer doubted of the lawfulnes of their callings and estate in this behalf 4 Fourthly as there is a double Idolatrie and false worship the one against the First commandement when any haue others besides the true God for their God the other against the Second commuandment when any having the true God for their God yet worship him not as he hath commaunded but after the inventions and prescriptions of men So the scriptures alleadged and the whole course of the word of God condemyne ioyning and having fellowship with either of these aswell this which is against the Second commaundement as that which is against the First See the Reasons alleadged by the Apostle 2 Cor. 6. Are they not strong and weightie against ioyning togeather righteousnes vnrighieousnes light darknes Christ Beliall †2 Cor. 6.14 c. whether it be in the breach of the First or Second commaundement Sayeth not the Lord there That his Church is his Temple in which he dwelleth walketh and therefore requireth of them that they be his people that they be his sonnes and daughters that they be separated from the world that they touch no vncleane thing whether it be of Antichrist or of the Heathen or whomsoever breaking the law of God And touching the place of Ezekiel who seeth not Ezec. 43.8 that he speaketh directlie of the breach of the Second commandement for ioyning togeather in the worship of the true God their thresholdes with Gods thresholds and their postes with Gods postes that is their inventions with Gods ordinances which though it bee done to the name and for the seruice of the true God yet as the Prophet sayth It is abominations in the sight of God and they that doe so worship him put a wall between God and themselves and defile his holy Name with their abominations Loe here the vse and fruit of ioyning togeather the inventions of men chieflie of Antichrist that man of sinne with the ordinaÌ„ces of God in his worship and seruice As you and your complices Maister Iacob like this so may you hold on in pleading for it and practising of it The third place is out of 2 King 17. where it is most plaine that the scripture speaketh of the breach of the Second coÌ„maundement For there we read that the Samaritans worshipped the * 2 King 17 28.32.41 same God and after the same †vers 26.27 29.33.34.40 maner that the Israelites of the Ten Tribes did that were carryed from thence That is they worshipped the true God but not as hee had commaunded but by hauing Images of sundrie sortes by which they thought God was represented as †Exod. 32.4 of old they thought of the calfe that Aaron made and by other inuentions deuised by the Israelites in their defection and ioyned to Gods ordinances for the worship and seruice of him That this was the sinne of those Samaritans against the Second commandement will appear by comparing togeather with this chapter these scriptures following to which we refer the Reader Ezra 4.1.2 with Exod. 20.4.5.6 and 32.1.4.5.6 Iudg. 17.2.3.4.5.13 Ezek. 20.39 Hosea 2.16 Amos. 5.21.22.23 8.14.1 Kings 12.27 and 18.21 and 21.29 and 22.12.24 Esay 10 11. Iohn 4.19.20.25.26.29.30 By these also as by that of Ezekiel may appear how false it is that you say further They did not so much as professe the written lavv to be their rule neyther for outvvard order nor their invvard doctrines of faith If this were so howe could it bee true which Ezechiell sayeth of thou of whom he speaketh
* Ezech. 43.8 that they set their posts and threshalls by Gods posts and Treshalls that is their inuentions by Gods ordinances Howe also was it that the Samaritans spoken of 2. King 17. sacrificed to the true God euen “ Ezra 4.2 the Lord God of the Iewes offering vnto him burnt offrings and meat offringes and peace offringes Or howe came it they still vsed Circumcision and wayted for the Messiah to come as he was promised in the writen word of God yea knowing also and beleeuing not only that the Messiah should come which is called Christ Ioh. 4.25 but also that when he came he would tel them al things The Corinthian infidels in deed as the rest of the Heathen knew not the true God by his writtē word But so it was not with the Samaritanes or Tenne tribes fallen from Iudah as is euident by the scriptures and reasons before alleadged To that which you speak of your profession and practise referring vs to your answer to the Second Exception going before I haue there answered it Onely this I adde here That seing it cannot in truth be denyed but the publique constitution of your Assemblies and estate of your Ministers and people therin is a most impious transgressiō of the Second cōmādemēt which the Lord himself calleth “ Nūb. 15.39 Revel 11.8 17.1.2.3.4.5 spiritual whoredome against him yea grieuous iniquitie and hatred of him threatning also to ‡ Exod. 20.5 visit it vpon the Fathers and children so remayning to the Third and Fourth generation Therefore by it are the truthes you professe made frustrate vnto you in this estate Neither will it help you to pretend that it is your error in iudgement For what abomination is there that might not thus be coloured And further seeing your publik professiō and practize is at the best a ioyning of Christ Antichrist togeather as hath bene shewed therefore can you not by the word of God be deemed in this estate to bee true Christians or true constituted Churches And the Scriptures applyed to proue this consequent are fitlie alleadged False therefore it is that you say we sinned against the Third commaundement in the application of the Scriptures aforesaid That is your owne common custome and lamentable sinne to break this commaundement by taking Gods name in vaine not onely in falsifying and peruerting the Scriptures for your turne but in your administration also of the Word Sacraments Church-gouernment by vertue of such offices callings as Christ neuer appointed but were first devised and are reteined by Antichrist Hitherto of your answer cōcerning the proof of the Propositiō To the proof of the Assumption you †Let the Reader therfore mynde in Mr Iacob this his sound and Scholler-like dealing answer not a word Fr. Io. which yet most of all required answer if you would in deed soundlie defend your estate as you pretend That your profession and practise ioyneth Christ Antichrist togeather I shewed by your Articles Canons Iniunctions Aduertisements c. by your present Ministery Worship Church-gouernement according therevnto If it be not so why bring you not warrant for these from the Testament of Christ and so take away the proof of the Assumption If it be so as by your silence you graunt and we are sure by the Scriptures the contrary cannot be showed then the Assumption standeth firme and consequently in this constitution you cannot be accounted true Christians nor your Assemblies so gathered true constituted Churches H. Iacob his 2. Reply vnto the 1. Reason IN this your defence of your first Reason you would first of all fasten on me a contradiction for graunting that our Church corruptions are from Antichrist which against your Second Exception I sayd we holde to be Christes owne viz. Because we hold Christ hath giuen his Church that libertie to deuise them Alas it pittieth me to see your simplicity or it greeueth me for your malice vvho could not see that there * See Pag. 28. 35. I spake in the person of our vvhole Church and state and shevved vvhat they held And here I speak as I thought my selfe This is a silly contradiction Then you say Pag. 62. I dazell the peoples eyes in saying some outward orders and ceremonies are from Antichrist as if they were but few and of small moment Therefore you are content to recken them vp full tediously God knovveth euen 91. in number numero Deus impare gaudet And vvhat of all these vvill you say therefore that vvhosoeuer holdeth these cannot hold Christ vnto saluation And so Mr. Cranmer and the rest of the Martyrs vvere damned But if not Then I say againe These some these 91. are too few and too slight and of too small moment of themselues and of their owne nature to abolish vs from Christ This ought you to haue proved which you never do but still your speach is most false and not vnproper onely that we ioyne Christ and Antichrist togeather As in the maimed man before ‡ Pag. 57. 62. noted there is not life and death ioyned togeather but living things and dead things are and yet the man aliue and a true man Then you will iustifie your applying the ‡ 2 Cor 6.14 c. Eze. 43.8 2 King 17.33.34.40.41 Scriptures which I sayd were mismatched and were meant against the Idolatry of the First commandement not against the Idolatry of the Second onely and meerlye as our Church orders in question are Therefore these Scriptures cannot inferre any abolishing from Christ by simple holding of the corruptions in our Church vvhich they doe proue by the simple holding of those Heathenish Idolatries vvhereof they speake To this you reply in Foure points 1 If these places bee meant of Heathenish Idolatrie which could never stand with Gods truth togeather Yet they forbid all other corruptions against the Second commaundement also That I neuer denied to be true after a sort These places indeede do forbid the breach of the Secōd commaundement but not principally directly and of purpose nor in that measure of fulnes But their immediate purpose is against the Heathenish Idolatry breaking the First commaundement So that they forbidde the breach of the Second commaundement consequently and proportionately but not in that full manner as they doe the First They forbid the First so as that they shew there is no cōmunion vvith God vvhilst men ioyne in such Idolatry they simply forbid the Second but deny not all communion vvith God to vvhome soever erreth therein 2 To your Second Reply I say make much of it for my parte I neuer thought other but our church corruptions are against the Second commaūdement 1 Sam. 15. Your second Scripture here applyed is of Saull a presumptuous and vvilfull offendour if you make our vvhole Churches so your sinne is the greater 3 Thirdly if you meane any of Antichrists Idolatrie and false vvorship and namely this in question the outward corrupt orders
Disciples who also were Iewes observed them not and therefore the Pharisees complained Thus you see they were not received of all the Iewes as heretofore I shewed not onelie in the Disciples but in divers other by name Pag. 84. Of whom you cannot denie but it is true They were the personall sinnes of some not the publik established Law neither generallie received and practised in that Church as I noted yours to be in your Assemblies that is of all the members thereof Neither is there anie comparison between yours and theirs as besides that which I have shewed before may appeare even by the vvaterpots here mentioned by your self Of the lawfull or vnlawfull vse whereof I need not stand to speak it being evident that they were no waie so vnlawfull or of such nature as your corruptioÌ„s are Let this then which hath ben said suffice to shew how true and pertinent my aunswers be That there is no contrariety between anie thing spoken here and in the sixt Reason following the Reader may see And that it is your self who do evill and defend it too there need no other witnes but the title and contents of your book togeather with your estate Concerning the thing which here you obiect I have proved alreadie that * Mat. 15.9 this and ‡ See before Pag. 83. other Scriptures being spoken of vaine worshippers in the true Church have ben and may be alledged much more against all vaine worship in the false Church whether it be yours or the Papists or anie other whatsoever And saie your self if the Martyrs have not both ben perswaded that the Iewes were a true Church and yet alledged this Scripture against the Papists as against a false Church Are these contrary I pray you that they need be reconciled Then do you reconcile them for the Martyrs For sure I see no need of it Chap. 9. The third Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF the whose doctrine as it is publiquelie professed and practized by Law in England be not sufficient to make a Galatian a true Christian that should with all submit vnto Circumcision Then much lesse is it able to make him a true Christian that together with it submitteth vnto a false Ministerie Worship and Governement of the Church devised by man even the man of sinne But the first is true Therefore also the latter The consequence of the Proposition is good because Circumcision was once the holie ordinance and appointment of God himself to his Church and people whereas the Ministerie Worship and Governement aforesaid never was so but is mans device in religion even Antichrists that capitall enemie of Iesus Christ The Assumption is proved Gal 5.2.3.4 where the Apostle speaketh of them that held not onelie such trueths of the Gospell as are in that book of Articles but more then those Yet if they should withall submit to Circumcision he saith they vvere abolished from Christ Christ vvould profit them nothing H. Iacob his first Reply to the 3. Reason THis your Third Reason is from the more to the lesse negatiuely to this effect A Galatian vsing Circumcision is a likelier Christian then one of our Englâ—sh holding the Hierarchy and other traditions But a Galatian is a false Christian Ergo An English professor is much more We ansvver We denie the Assumption Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies true Churches Gal. 1.2 Therefore this Reason is nought If you obiect The Apostle saith such are abolished from Christ. That is in deed some amongst them as held Moses ceremonies necessarie absolutlie to salvation as Act. 15.1 And that †Gal. 5.3 4.5 Rom. 10.3.4 Iustification vvas by the morall vvorkes of the lavv Novv the Churches of Galatia generallie vvere not such but held the saving faith sound doubtles though manie amngest them vvere tainred vvith that infection by reason of some mischeuous teachers that vvere crept in and too vvell interteined among them Hovvbeit vvith the Church Communion vvas kept and therefore so vvith vs you ought to deale If you say vve are vvorse Christians then those grosest Galatians It is vtterly false prove it if you can and it must dravve in Maister Cranmer c. vvith vs also If you say there are many amongst vs as bad or vvorse then those vvorst Galatians you may say it but prove it you cannot Also if it vvere so yet this disgraceth it destroyeth not the Church like as hath ben sayd of the Galatians Fr. Io. his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 3. Reason YOur first answer is that you deny the Assumption Which in plaine termes is asmuch as if you had given the holy Ghost the lye who by the Apostle Paule affirmeth it Gal. 5.2.3.4 As in the proof of the Assumption was shewed before But for the more evidence of the truth I will set this downe in a Syllogisme thus If a Galatian submitting to Circumcision though he hold all the truths of the Gospell professed in EnglaÌ„d withall yet be notwithstanding abolished from Christ and falne from grace Then is he not in this estate a true Christian But the former is true as the Apostle testifieth Gal. 5.2 3 4. Therefore also the latter And yet the former you deny that is the Assumption Therefore you give the lie to the holy Ghost who affirmeth it Next you aunswer that the Galatians vvere then true Christians and their Assemblies Churches Gal 1.2 Therefore say you this Reason is nought But you may not thus runne away with the matter and deceive your self and your simple favourers The question is not Whether any Galatians vvere true Christians or any of their Assemblies true Churches For who ever doubted of that But this is the question Whether a Galatian holding all the truths of the Gospell novv professed in England and vvithall submitting to CircuÌ„cisioÌ„ vvere in that estate a true Christian Or putting the case that there were whole Assemblies consisting of such Whether those AsseÌ„blies then in that case were by Gods word to be deemed the true Churches of Christ The Apostle testifieth and saith No You say Yea. Now whether of you two it is meet wee beleeve let all men iudge But what is it then will you say that the Apostle termeth the assemblies of the Galatians true Churches Gal. 1.2 You shew the reason your selfe the light of the truth is so cleare and manifest There were but some of the Galatians that were infected with this error of Circumcision True in deed and of such onelie is the supposition made in the case aforesaid But the Churches of Galatia generally were not such but held the saving faith sound This also is most true they being set in the way and order of Christ And therefore although there sprang vp some heretikes and schismatikes among them which is the †1 Cor. 11.19 Act. 20.30 lot and triall of the Church of God in all ages yet was there not cause to break Communion with those Assemblies but
those things yet you are notwithstanding to be judged in this constitution true Christians and true Churches which hitherto you have not done neither ever will If you meane it not of them then you keep not the point and besides you must prove the contrary to that I have said Which you never go about For the note I gave you graunt it is most true that such things may be joined with the doctrines of faith received among you as will vtterly destroy it or to keep the words of my aunswer which you love not to do that in such estate you can not be deemed true Christians or true Churches neither the truths which you hold be avayleable vnto you Thus all the defence you bring of your Church proves to be quite nothing in the end For hereby is evident as heretofore I noted that your Proposition is not generall that both it and the Assumption are lame and vnperfect and so your whole Argument faulty and nothing els but meer Sophistry Your vnchristiā and false charge rests vpō your owne head as is proved already in the handling of your Proposition For which see Pag. 11. 12. 13. Lastly your reference is nothing els but a refuge whither still you fly to hide your self when you can no longer stand in defence of your Church What you aunswered to the first Reason is there taken away Now to shut vp all you sing againe the Cuckoes note your old vnder song Mr Crāmer Ridley c. Towching whom I have shewed before Pag 40. 41. how they may he counted true Christiās and yet your estate be Antichristiā nevertheles Chap. 11. The Fift Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fran. Iohnson AS the golden vessels taken out of the Lords house had and vsed in Babylō of the Caldeās did not therefore make the Babyloniās true Iewes touching the faith Nor their bankets wherein they vsed them to be any of the Lords Feasts spoken of Leu. 23. but they still remained Babylonish people and banquets notwithstanding So the truths of the Gospel vessels as it were of the Lords house holden and received in the spiritual Babilō whereof that other was a type do not make the people so stāding to be true Christiās Neither their Ministery and cōstitution to be Christs But they still remaine the people Ministery cōstitution of Babylon notwithstāding See the proofs hereof in Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 compared with Prov. 9.17.18 Rev. 17.4.5 18.4 with 14.8.9.10.11 H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 5. Reason YOur Reason is this The materiall vessells of Ierurusalem were of the like power and vertue to sanctifie the Heathen Babilonians As the holy christian doctrines in that Booke are to sanctifie vs that holde togeather with them some Popish ceremonies and orders as indifferent things But those vessels were not sufficient to sanctifie those Babilonians Ergo Neither these truths of the Gospell can sanctifie vs. An absurd comparison The Proposition is most false and so the scriptures quoted Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 compared vvith Pro. 9.17.18 Revel 17.4.5 18.4 vvith 14.8.9.10.11 are as idely and vainely applyed See the Ansvver to the allegations in the First Reason before FR. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 5. Reason MY Reason is a comparison between the Caldean and the Romish Babylon also between the vessels of the Lords house and the true doctrines of the Gospell Now this you say first is an absurd comparison So belike if your grave judgement might goe for good payment the manifold allusions which in describing the spirituall Babylon the Spirit of God ♣ maketh to the materiall Babylon of the Caldeans are to bee accompted absurd allusions and comparisons As also the often alluding and likening togeather the * holy things of the Law with the holy thinges of the Gospell and the †transgressions then with the transgressions now which are so often vsed in the Scripture are in your account absurd allusions similitudes ♣ Rev. 17. 18. 19. chap. compared with Ierem. 50. 51. chap. Esay 13. 14. 21. 47. chap. * Esay 66.20.21 Zach. 14.20.21 1 Cor. 5.7.8 10.2.3.4 Col. 2.11.12 Heb. 13.15.16 1 Pet. 3.20.21 Rev. 15.3 21.10 c. †2 Tim. 3.8.9 1 Cor. 10.6 c. Heb. 12.16.17 Iude vers 11. Rev. 2.14.20 20.8.9 Secondly you say the Proposition is most false But in deed it is most true and most plainely taught in the fift of Daniel Vers 1.2.3.4 Lev. 23. chap. As was alleadged before when I first propounded the reason wherevnto yet you have given no aunswer So soundly you defend your cause Thirdly you say These scriptures Dan. 5.1.2.3.4 vvith Pro. 9.17.18 Revel 17.4.5 18.4 14.8.9.10.11 are idely and vainely applyed But how do you shew this Verie profoundly sure You bid vs see the aunsvver to the allegations in the First Reason And this is all the proof you bring Well wee have seen your aunswer to the allegations there and find First that the Scriptures here alleadged are not so much as once mentioned there Secondly that your aunswer to those which are there is most frivoulous and of no weight but against your self as there is declared Pag. 67. 68. Lastlie in your propounding the Reason here otherwise then I did myself which is a thing very common but nothing commendable in you it seemeth that being not able to aunswer any part thereof as I had set it downe yet you thought to helpe your self by this exception that the materiall vessells of Ierusalem vvere not of like povver and vertue to sanctifie the Heathen Babylonians as the true doctrines received among the Spirituall Babylonians are to sanctifie them But you shall finde if you will consider and compare togeather the Scriptures here alledged that the golden vessels being holy to the Lord and taken out of his Temple did asmuch sanctifie the Caldean Babylonians and their Feastes As the holy doctrines vessels as it were of the Lords Temple had amōg the spirituall Babylonians doe sanctifie them and their constitution That is neither of their estates and Assemblies are sanctified thereby at all For saith not the Lord That the setting of mens postes and thresholds how much more of Babylons enormities by his Postes and Thresholds that is by his truths and ordinances is so far from sanctifying as it defyleth his holy name yea is abomination in his sight and setteth a vvall between him and them that doe it Ezech. 43.8 And saith not the Scripture againe that the true doctrines in the false Church are among them as stollen vvaters and hid bread which though they be svveet and pleasant yet there also the mouth is filled with gravell and the guestes of those feasts and Assemblies are so far from being sanctifyed by those truthes in that estate as they are before God even dead men and in the deapth of hell Prov. 9.17.18 20.17 To conclude this poinct hath not an Angell from heaven proclaimed with a loude voice that
commaundement “ Pag. 72. It is no part of my mynd to iustify them ♣ Pag. 84. Our doctrine appointeth Gods worship by Mens precepts after a sort ‡ Pag. 92. Our Hierarchy was never but nought * Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 6. Reason following I never intended much lesse professed to iustify our whole Ministery estate and maner of worship †His Replies to the 7. 8 Reasons We depart from and deny the faith in our Ministery c. but not totally simply fundamentally ‡ His 2. Reply to the 9. Reason I list not to medle with them I have no leasure c. Now then Mr Iacob say I not well that your Churches in this estate are spirituall Babylon And have I not made a fit comparison between it and the Caldean Babylon of old between the doctrines of truth in the one and the holy vessels in the other If the comparison be good strive no more against it but yeeld to the truth as you haue begun If it be evill convince it by Scripture whence I borrowed it as the testimonyes I alledged declare Vntill you do this which will not be in hast know that the Scriptures here cited are fitly applyed to the purpose in hand If you see it not feare least you be miserably and desperatly blynded And take heed you do not still runne on wilfully to destruction Remember what is written in Esa 6.9.10 Mat. 13.14.15 Ioh. 12 37-43 Act. 28.25.26.27 Towching the place of Ezech. 43.8 I have aunswered in the handling of the first Reason Pag. 80. For Mr Cranmer Mr Ridley c. I have also answered Pag. 40. 41. You that do so often tell vs of them if you had but so much as how of any Scripture for your estate is it like you would be silent therein Nay sure you would not spare much more to tell vs of that agayne and agayne And so let the Reader mynd it Chap. 12. The Sixt Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Io. THe Samaritans those counterfeit children of Abraham Isaak and Iacob did publiquely professe that most excellent doctrine of the Messias to come the truth of which doctrine how powerfull it was to salvation the Scriptures testify Yet doeth our Saviour Christ repute them false worshippers of God because their worship was a mixt one framed after the inuentions of men and traditions of their Forefathers Therefore saith Christ vnto them Ye worship that which ye know not we worship that which we knowe for salvation is of the Iewes By which appeareth 1. That although the Samaritans professed this saving truth yet being false worshippers of God they could not truly challendge vnto themselves in such estate the benefite thereof 2. That the Iewes and they which held their faith being then the true Church and people of God to whom his Oracles were committed and to whom his Couenantes and service did appertayne Christ therefore accounted the Iewes and not the Samaritans to be the true worshippers of God and heires of salvation Iohn 4.22 compared with ver 20.25.29 and with 2 King 17.24 c. In like maner the people of these Ecclesiasticall assemblies staÌ„ding subiect to a counterfeit Ministery and worship being also commingled togeather of all sortes of people Though they professe some truthes which otherwise are available to salvation yet can not in such estate by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither can so standing challendge vnto themselves the benefit of those true doctrines which they professe because God hath not made his promise vnto any false Church or worshippers of him neither committed vnto any such but onely to his true Church and worshippers his service and holy things of his word prayer Sacraments Censures c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis your Sixt Reason is The Samaritans beleeving that Messias should come Iohn 4.25 were as neere salvation as we of England are But they were false worshippers for all that Ergo so are we for all our holy doctrines beleeved according to that Book of Articles I deny the proposition The Samaritans might know by hearsay and beleeve the Messias should come and Balaam did know it Nomb. 24.17 and the Divels doe now knovv and beleeve Iam. 2.17 Yet none of these beleeved in him It follovveth not therefore that they vvere as nigh salvation as vve of England In a vvord there is a Reason manifest These Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols vvith the God of Israel 2 Kiâ—g 17. Which vvholy destroyed the truth in them though they did reteyne some memoriall amongst them of Messias to come Pag. 62 Wherefore here take the Second Ansvver to the First Reason before But I vvill help you vvith an Obiection surely one fitter then all these The Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethell served not Pagan Idols Obiection but the true God after their ovvn deuises vvhich yet resembled the ordinances of Ierusalem 2 King 12.32 Amos. 4.4 Hovvbeit they were false worshippers onely for their false Ministery and outward false worship for all that they beleeued in the God of Ierusalem otherwise rightly Ergo so are wee of England only fot our false Ministerie and outvvard vvorship To this vvee aunsvvere also vvhat additions of deuices Ansvver and hovv grosse Idolatrie they held it appeareth not But surely it seemeth farre grosser and filthier then the vvorst is vvith vs But yet this appeareth cleerly that the conscience of euery of them euen of the simpliest must needes be conuicted that Ierusalem vvas the only place and ‡ My meaning vvas the Levites vvere not of Aarons line but the Prists onely Aarons line the only Priests Leuits Therfore they could not be indeed true vvorshippers nor vvithin the couenant nor neere to saluation vvhen they all openly rebelled and forsooke them desperatly vvhom the Lord had so expresly chosen Novv our assemblies throughout EnglaÌ„d haue not their consciences so conuicted in the Hyerarchie and Ceremonies Ergo vvee may be in the couenant vvhich they vvere not for all our corruptions Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 6. Reason THis Reason as the rest you neyther propound as we did nor make aunswer directly and soundly to any part thereof Now that the nakednes of your answer and light of the truth may better appeare we will propound the Reason more plainlie in a Syllogisme thus The people and assemblies whose Ecclesiasticall constitution is such as to them in that estate the Covenantes holy things and service of God do not appertayne they can not in such constitution by the word of God be deemed true Christians or true Churches whatsoever truthes they professe besides But such is the Ecclesiasticall constitution of the people and asseÌ„blies of England as vnto them in that estate the Covenauntes holy things and service of God do not apperteyne Therefore the people and Assemblies of England can not in that coÌ„stitution by the word of
knovvledge So then your peoples ignoraunce which you plead can be no sufficient defence for your estate Or if it could yet it seemeth they of Israell might aswell have alleadged it for thēselves seeing the Lord witnesseth of them * Hos 4.1 that there vvas no knovvledge of God in the land And thus the Obiection also here brought by your self remayneth still vnaunswered Where you say Aarons Line vvere the onely Priests and Levites you are also mistaken therein In deed Aarons Line onely was the Priests but the Levites were generally of the Tribe of Levi though not of Aarons line But to let this passe We would know a sufficient reason why the true vvorship and Ministery appointed by Christ in his Testament should not be aswell knowne vnto you in these dayes as in the defection of Israell You say They could not but knovve that Ierusalem vvas the onely place Aarons line the onely Priests Well then Have not you the Scriptures asmuch as they had Or hath not ♣ Heb. 3.1.2.3.4.5.6 Christ the sonne ben as faithfull in the house of God and as plainly set downe his will for his true worship and Ministery in the tyme of the Gospell as Moses the servant was and did for the tyme of the Law Yea and have not * VVitnes the publik Treatises Sermons Admonitions Cōplaintes Supplicatiōs Demonstrations to the Parliament beside the bandes sufferings of many in this behalfe these by the word ben made manifest to the consciences of men in these daies and even to the high Court of Parliament representing the whole body of the land as the other were to the Israelites in the tyme of their defection Finally doeth not this Land stand in as open rebellion against and forsaking of the true Ministery worship and order appoincted by Christ to his Church now as they did then if not more open and greevous not onely for the causes aforsaid but because you have also †VVitnes the Pontifical Porruis Canons and Constitutiō of the popish your assemblies compared together received and still reteine a false Ministery worship and confusion of the Man of sinne that sonne of perdition and capitall enemie of the Lord Iesus Christ And yet moreover least you should be behind them in any thing and not every way farre exceed them do also ‡ VVitnes your prisons gallovves Statutes c persecute vnto bandes exile and death such as beare witnes to the truth of Christ against your abominations By this then is manifest that you have neither iustifyed your estate in respect of the Apostate Israelites nor answered the Obiection “ pag. 105. here framed by your self against your present constitution So that it also still remaineth vpon you as a testimony against your present estate We indeed neyther did nor needed propound it as a severall Reason amōg those we set downe because it is of like nature with those which we have already mentioned in the Second and Sixt Reasons here before alleadged Pag. 82. and 104. H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 6. Reason IN this your defence of your 6. Reason you say That the Proposition of your last syllogisme They that worship God after a false manner Pag. 106. are no true Christians is proved by the example of the Samaritans and that I answer nothing against it First I say there you sophisticate againe And it seemeth you can doe nothing else in argumentation For your Proposition is aequivocall and ambiguous If you meane they that vvorship God after a false manner that is totally or els Fundamentally Then I cleerely graunt it and that the Samaritans doe prove the same seeing they erred Fundamentally But your Assumption touching vs is then vtterly false You bring not a syllable or one letter to prove either of these tvvo against vs in all your writing neyther can you but bare begging of the controversie which is infinite ofte If you meane in your Proposition They that serve God after a false maner that is in part not wholly nor Fundamentally As namely in the Hierarchy and externall ceremonies as Cranmer c. Then I say and a vouch confidently in the presence of God that such may be true Christians though vnperfect in many things Yea infinite such have ben are and may be hereafter true Christians The contrarie whereof is no lesse then horrible blasphemy against God and his Saincts wherefore your Proposition is shewed to be againe sophisticall as also those were in your Third Exception First and Second Reasons Secondly where you say the Samaritans prove it I say nothing against it Marke you First I said the Samaritans might knowe by hearsay and yet not faithfully beleeve in the Messias You cannot be ignorant that there is a great difference between an obscure rumor which some of them might receiue from their neighbour Iewes and yet not haue it constantly beleeued and held publiquely among them as their cōmon faith If thus the Samaritans beleeued the comming of Messiah they are in no cōparison with vs we holde our most holy faith and doctrine by the worde professedly as the publique ordinance of our Churchs sheweth But furder let it be howsoeuer they held the comming of Messiah yet I answered The Samaritans ioyned Heathenish Idols wih the God of Israell which wholly destroyed the trueth in them And this is the very truth indeed howsoeuer you vvill not yeld it For you say that they broke not the First commaundement they worshipped not the Idols themselues nor sacrifised to them c. This is proued apparantly false in the Text. 2 kings 17.29 30 31. Every nation made their Gods and put them in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made euery nation in their Citties wherein they dwelt 2 King 17. For the men of Babel made Succoth-Benoth and the men of Cuth made Nergall and the men of Hamath made Ashima And the Auims made Nibhaz and Tartak and the Sepharuims burnt their children in the fyer to Adramdech Anammelech the Gods of Sepharuim Therefore they vvorshipped the Idols of the Heathen and sacrifized to them and accompted them to be Gods asvvell as the God of Israell And so broke the First commandement and therefore they touch not vs in this question As the like I †pag. 71. haue truely and vvell declared before against your First Reason Your proofes ‡ pag. 107. that the Samaritans brake not the First commandement are nothing 1 That of Ezra 4.1.2 that they sought the Lord as the Iewes did c. vvas their counterfeit hypocrisy and false brag yea their divelish cōspiracy against the worship of the Ievves God Do you beleve their vvordes here in this place that they are true indeed I graunt as I noted before out of 2 Kings 17. they had a mixed vvorship something of the Ievves God but very much and as by the Chapter seemeth most of the Heathens Gods Pag. 107. 2.
to deny it Remember it is ‡ Of this see Before Pag. 7. 8. one thing for men to say such may be accounted true Christians being considered apart from the Church constitution wherein they stand and another to say such as towching their Chur-constitution are to be accounted true Christians 3. Thirdly set the Reader mynd how vnder the terme of externall ceremonies you would still hide the impiety of your false worship and most filthy heap of your Antichristian abominations 4. Fourthly set you downe by the word of God what is fundamentall and see if I prove not the Antichristian errors among you to be such They subvert Christs office they are doctrines of Diuels Col. 2.8 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Rev. 14 9-12 2 Thes 2 3-12 marks of the Beast lyes and vnrighteousnes of Antichrist the mystery of iniquity the apostasy of the sonne of perdition c. Consider now with your self what will follow herevpon 5. Fiftly although your errors were not fundamentall yet for the Proposition it skilleth not so as your constitution be such as is there spoken of Eyther therefore must you prove your constitution to be otherwise or els both the Proposition and the Assumption stand firme against you as I have proved for both 6. For Mr Cranmer c. whose errors you oppose more vnto vs then any word of God I have aunswered alreadie and shewed how their case and yours is not alike Pag 40. 41. Besides that I doubt not but some erring in fundamentall points as divers of the Martyrs have done may yet be partakers of salvation Of which point see more in the second Exception * Pa. 44. c before and the “ The answer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 7. Reasō next Reason hereafter following 7. Lastly concerning your confident auouch in the presence of God know you not that the Fryers and Monks for their callings and all false worshippers for their service of God will auouch as much and as confidently as you do here Yea and alledge that it is no lesse then horrible blasphemy against God and his Saints to say the contrarie Is this therefore of any waight for their defence No more then for yours To turne your owne words then vpon your self you bring not a syllable or one letter in all your writing neither can you for warrant of your estate neither against that I have said to the contrary but bare begging of the controversie which is infinite often and meer sophisticall dealing everie where rife throughout your Replies Of the third Exception and first and second Reasons enough is said before in the handling of them All the Sophistry you have will not prove them sophisticall If you think good you may trie your skill once againe Yet remember how you are foyled alreadie and know that still you shall fynde the light of the truth to shine and the power thereof to prevaile against you as alway it hath and will against all adversaries whōsoever For the Samaritans whose example proveth the Proposition I noted first that most excellent truths may be acknowledged and yet they which so professe not be in their estate true Christians or true Churches to whom appertaine the couenants c. This you passe by as if you saw it not Belike that your Reader might the lesse mind it Next I required proof for that you said The Samaritans beleued not in the Messias Now in stead of proof you bring vs it might be if it were so let it be howsoever c. But Ifs and And 's cannot be received for proof Speciallie when such evidence is shewed for their faith in the Messiah as may be seen in Ioh. 4.25.26.29.30.39 Where you say you hold your faith and doctrine by the word professedly as the publik ordinance of your Church sheweth I neither heare you prove it nor see the ordinance of your Church shew it The contrarie I have declared before and occasion there will be to speake of it againe In the meane tyme tell me whether you hold by the word professedly your faith and doctrine towching the Hierarchy the forbidding of meats and mariage and the other particulars mentioned before Pag. 63. c. Tell me also whether your Churches faith and doctrine for Christs descension into Hell be held by the word professedly among you viz That Christs soule went downe into Hell whiles his body lay in the grave I know Mr Iacob for your part you will not sticke to say your Churches doctrine is not thus For so I remember you have aunswered D. Bilson now Prelate of Winchester ‡ in a treatise which you wrote against him concerning this point But how do you shew it in that book of yours H.I. his treatise of Christs suffrings descending into Hell Pag. 172. 173 Thus forsooth The Articles of the Synod holden in K. Edwards tyme have thus As Christ dyed for vs and was buried so also it is to be beleeved that he went downe into Hell For his body lay in the grave vntill the Resurrection but his spirit gone out from it was with the Spirits which were deteined in prison or in Hell and preached vnto them as the place of Peter testifyeth But your Synod holden synce in the yeare 1562. you say correcteth it and hath thus onely As Christ dyed for vs and was buried so we are to beleve also that he descended into Hell Which you translate thus that he went vnto the Dead The rest following in the Article of the former Synod your latter doth not mention Herevpon you gather thus It repeateth and ratifyeth part of the foresaid Article in expresse words but part of it euen * Not all all and every whit that conteineth this doctrine expressly of Christs going down to the Hell of the damned it cutteth of it putteth out it casteth away Therefore you conclude that the publik sentence of your Churches yea the Law of the Land confirming the same is against this opinion of Christs descending into Hell But in earnest Mr Iacob do you think this reason is good Then for your learning marke this which followeth as good as yours and all one The Letany ♣ See the Books of Cōmon Prayer Ordering Priests c. printed in K. Edw. tyme. in K. Edwards tyme ran thus From the tyranny of the Bishop of Rome and all his detestable enormityes good Lord deliver vs. But your Letany synce in this Queens tyme correcteth it not mentioning this clause at all It repeateth and ratifyeth part of that Letany in expresse words but part of it even all and every whit of the clause aforsaid concerning the Bishop of Rome and his enormityes to be prayed against it cutteth of it putteth out it casteth away Look in all your books of Common prayer now published and you shall fynd it as I say Therefore by your Logick it will follow that the publik sentence of your Churches yea the Law of the Land confirming the same is against this that
And for the other that Christ notwithstanding said to some of the Iewes Maâ— 15.9 they vvorshipped God in vaine teaching doctrines mens precepts Mat. 15.9 How say you Mr Iacob is the Scripture therefore contrarie to it self Or were Christs speaches contrarie the one to the other Pag. 83. 2 Besides are you so dull as you can not conceive no not when it is told you that the sinnes and corruptioÌ„s of the meÌ„bers of a true Church may fitlie be alledged against whole false Churches and yet neither condemne the true constitution of that Church wherein the one stand nor justifie the false constitution of the other 3 Yea know you not that a Church in true constitution jointlie considered may be said to be true vvorshippers of God c. and yet some yea manie of that Church be said also through their owne default in other respect to vvorship God in vaine or to be tainted with Idolatry or the like And yet no contradiction be implyed in so saying Seing you cannot vnderstand it in Christs words concerning the Ievves see if you can perceive it in Pauls to the Corinthians When he speaketh to the whole Church jointlie considered he commendeth them for keping his ordinaÌ„ces and acknowledgeth they call on the Name of the Lord Iesus 1 Cor. 1.2 11.2 But when he speaketh in respect of some that sate and eat of the sacrifices in the Idol-temples he biddeth them fly from Idolatry and telleth them they cannot be partakers of the Lords table and of the table of Divels 1 Cor. 10.14.21 8.10 Yet is he not contrarie to himself for all this Mynd withall what I aunswerd before concerning this point in the Second reason Pag 90. And so againe I leave it to the Reader to judge whether the contrariety you speak of be not in deed an harmony and that therefore you abuse both the Scripture and vs. Chap. 13. The seventh Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson If the Spirit of God account them to be departers from the faith and consequentlie no true Christians who though they hold other truthes of the Gospell yet forbid to marry and commaund to absteine from meats vvhich God hath created to be received vvith thankesgiving Then such account must needs be made of the estate of the Church of England which not onelie both these things but withall forbiddeth the true Ministerie and worship of God and commaundeth a false Whose Ministers and people also do all of them partake therein For proof whereof besides their practise of these and persecution of the truth see their owne Canons Articles Statutes Iniunctions c. But the former is true 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 7. Reason â—â— 1â— THis yout seaventh Reason is They are departed from the faith that forbid to marry and commaund to abstayne from lawfull meates Also this is worse then that viz. to forbid the true Ministery and to commaunde a false which we in England doe Ergo we are departers from the faith I deny this AntecedeÌ„t that is your AssumptioÌ„ with a distinctioÌ„ The Papists †See â—hâ—â—â— Testam in Mat. 15.18 Fr. Io. See D. Fulkeâ— answer therevnto forbidding of mariage meals if they had don no worse doth not make them departers froÌ„ the saith that is not “ or not fuÌ„damentally not simply vvhich vvordâ—s I think â—itter to bee here vsed as in my next Reply is further declard totally No more could their Hyerarchie and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such The Papistes fall from Christ ‡ That is fundameÌ„tally simply see in the 2. Reply follovving wholy in other poincts namely 1. The Papall supremacy 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by workes Which blessed bee God wee are farre from Therfore the Apostle in saying They departed from the faith meaneth in * vid. in abstayning froÌ„ Mariage and meetes these poincts they erred or departed from the faith but not absolutly and wholy 2. Furthermore touching your Proposition if you vnderstand Paul of Martion the Heretike and Tatianus who did absolutly condemne Mariage and certen meats they even therein might vvholy fall froÌ„ the faith I meane somwhat like to Balaam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites “ Pag. 105.112 lately spoken of namely for having their consciences convicted and seared with a whot iron And thus are they in no comparison with vs of EnglaÌ„d nor with the Papistes neither if they had erred in nothing else Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 7. Reason HEre being not able with any colour to deny the consequent of the Proposition neither to justify your present Ministery worship Canons Articles IniunctioÌ„s c. which you must do Mr Iacob and still we call for it if you will justify your present estate yet being desperate sure for els you would never have done it you feare not to gainsay the Assumption that is the very words and testimony of the Scripture it self 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 The Apostle saith that they which forbidd Mariage and Meats are departed from the faith You say No. Now whether I pray you shall we beleev You or the Apostle But what colour have you for your deniall This forsooth That they which doe so do not depart from the faith totally and that the Apostles meaning is that in these poincts they depart from the faith but not absolutly and wholy So by your conceit none may be accounted departers from the faith that depart onelie in some poincts but they which doe it totally from all And thus may no heretikes or Antichrists that euer haue bene or shal be in the world be iudged departers froÌ„ the faith because they depart from it but in some poincts and not absolutly from all Thus have you justified at once the Arians Nestorians Sabellians Papists Familistes Anabaptistes and whom not because they depart but in some not wholy from all poincts of faith Is it not great pitie that Antichrist hath so long wanted such a stout Champion as can thus in one word justify his forbidding of meates and mariage yea and his most detestable Hierarchie and superstitions withall By your learning Mr Iacob all the Martyrs and writers heretofore which by evideÌ„ce of this Scripture convicted the Synagoges of Antichrist to have departed from the faith and therefore separated from them were vtterly deceived Yea and the Apostles themselves were wholy mistaken when they call Antichrists Church and Religion ♣ 2 Thes 2.7 a mysterie of iniquitie which ‡ 1 Tim. 4.2 speaketh lies through hypocrisy * 2 Pet. â— 1 prively bringing in daÌ„nable heresies and ‡ hauing a shew of godlines but denying the power thereof And Iohns eyes it seemeth were not matches 2 Tim. 3.4 when he saw in the whores forehead that is in Antichrists Church and Religion a name written A mystery great Babylon the mother of vvhoredomes and
cause also it may be you were the more willing to passe by them being in deed afrayd and vnable to deale with them But to let this passe let others now iudge by that which hath ben said on whom the sclaunder lyeth And note you by the way that it is the common woont of sclaunderers to impute that to others vnder some pretence or other which in very deed they do themselves yea and that often with an impudent forehead Of vour vaine distinction of fundamentall errors and of the necessitie which lyeth vpon you to answer the particulars which I obiected about the Papists and your selves I have spoken ‡ here before If it stop not your mouth as I suppose it will yet let it teach you at least to take heed pag. 144. c. that your next Replie be lesse vaine and more pertinent then these former have ben In the last place when all other shifts fayle you would hale in againe to help at a dead lift those good but dead men Mr Cranmer Ridley c. whom you do neuer linne calling vpon as if you would give them no rest till you had brought them vp even from the dead to beare witnesse on your side But I have shewed before so great differēce between your case and theirs as they can not help you at all And now I tell you further as Christ hath said of old Luk. 16.31 If you heare not Moses and the Prophets neyther would you be perswaded though one rose frō the dead againe All these things considered I hope in your next you will either by the word of God iustify that you depart not from the faith in your leitourgy Hierarchy confusion of people forbidding of Meats and Mariage persecuon of the truth c. or els yeeld that in such estate you do in deed depart frō the faith and therefore cannot therein by the word of God be estemed true Christians Chap 14. The Eight Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumptiō afoersaid Fr. Iohnson IF the Apostle account them denyers of the faith and worse then Infidels and consequently no true Christians who though they doe hold other truthes of the Gospell yet provide not for their household Then how are such to be accounted who though they professe some truthes of the Gospell yet are not true worshippers of God but execute or submit vnto a false Ministery vvorship governement ecclesiasticall Which to be th' estate of the Ministery and people of the Church of England appeareth as aforesaid in their Canōs Articles Book of Cōmon prayer c. But the first is true 1 Tim. 5.8 Therefore c. H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 8. Reason THis your Eight Reason is thus much viz. Like as it is for a professor not to provide for his houshold so is it to hold the Hierarchy c. But that is to deny the faith and to be worse then an infidell Ergo so are we in England Those very answers to the last Reason do fully and flattly satisfy this also Eyther against the Assumption namely that it is not meant simply of denying the faith nor ‡ I meane Fūdamentally as in the last Reas before I have shewed wholy but in this poinct onely Or els the Proposition as being meant of such as neglect their families against the light of their consciences and the manifest instinct of nature Er. Iohnson his Ansvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 8. Reason FOr aunswer of this Reason you refer vs both for Proposition and Assumption to your answer to the last Reason But there I have proved those your aunswers to be vntrue Therefore yet we have no aunswer either to that Reason or this As for your new meaning now and not before noted here in the margent although it help you no more then the other yet tell me in your next where you learned thus to confound things that differ so much one from another For now your Reply to both these Reasons is such as if wholy and fundamentally were all one Or els what have you said But this Mr Iacob is to confound not to distinguish as you pretended before Pag. 135. 142. Men may erre fundamentally in some points of the faith who yet erre not wholy in all Pag. 92. 136. 142. The Papists at this day you confesse †your self do erre fundamentally in some things as in Iustification by works the Popes supremacy the Masse c. Will you therefore say they erre wholy in all Do they not howsoever they erre otherwise yet notwithstanding hold also these and manie other truths viz That there is but one God and three persons in the Godhead That he made heaven and earth and all other things and that of nothing That the Sonne not the Father or holy Ghost took flesh of the Virgin Mary That the bodyes of the dead shall rise againe at the last day c. Likewise for the Corinthians and Galathians of old Pag. 28. 92 of whom also you cōfesse that they erred fundamentally in some points as about the Resurrection Circumcision c Shall we therefore think that they held not anie one point of truth but erred wholy in all The Scripture it self doth witnes the contrary as may be seen throughout the Epistles sent to those Churches How sencelesse then and confused is this your new coyned meaning Towching which I thought to adde thus much here besides that which I spake concerning it in the last Reason before Let the Reader moreover observe that both there and here and in your Reply to the Reason following the power of the truth so prevaileth against you as you cannot but graunt you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery worship and governement ecclesiasticall As appeareth in your Canons book of Common prayer Articles Iniunctiōs persecution c. All which beeing mentioned as proofes thereof in these severall reasons when now they should be defended if you would maintaine your standing behold you are as mute as a fish therein And not that onely but in your Reply to the next Reason following Pag. 156. you graunt that in these things we may and ought to separate from you Which is directlie to yeeld vs the cause Thus soundlie you answer vs and dispute for your selves H. Iacob his 2. Reply to the 8. Reason TO this your Eight Reason and defence thereof I aunswer as before if you take the Apostle to meane such neglecters of their houshold as deny the faith not Fundamentally nor against the instinct of nature but only against conuenient Christian providence and no othervvise then I deny your Assumption If the Apostle meane of such as neglect their families against the light of conscience and natures instinct then I deny the Proposition This I say because the Apostle may very well meane both these but in diverse measure and proportion of sinne but then this concerneth not vs Even so as I have said to your former Reason Note also if this were
19.9 Compare now your case with theirs and aunswer for your selves Are not you hardened against the truth Let your writings against it your imprisonning banishing and killing for it give evidence Do you not also disobey it Let your constitution and practise be witnesse And do you not speake evill of the way of God before the multitude Let the Sermons of your Ministers beare record your books also and yll speaches of your Prelates Iudges people c. Therefore by that Scripture you are to be separated from Wherevnto may be added in this case that which Peter saith Act. 2. Save your selves from this froward generation Thirdly where you obiect That Paule did not separate from all the other Iewes as he did from these Act. 19. and shew it by Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 I answer that the Apostles had good and iust cause so to do For first the Iewes were the people of God separated from the world and set in the true way and order of God Rom. 9.4 Levit. 20.22.24.26 Luk. 16.8 c. Secondlie Christ commaunded the Apostles when he sent them to preach his Gospell throughout the world that they should first preach it to the Iewes Luke 24.47 Act. 1.8 13.46 Thirdlie the Iewes ministery and ceremonies being the ordinances of God him self and given in writing by Moses the man of God were therefore now when they should cease to be buried with honor Act. 15.21 and 21.30.21.22.23.24.25 Heb. 8.5.13 and 9.1 c. These things considered we see the Apostles had iust cause so to do as they did in those places meÌ„tioned But what is this to the assemblies of England which never yet were separated from the world nor set in the way and order of Christ but stand in the “ Rev. 13.16.17 18.2 2 The. 2.3.4.8 confusion and defection of Antichrist whose Ministery and worship were never the ordinances of God but taken out of * Rev. 17.2.4 18.3 9.3 c. the whores cup of Babylon for which God never gave Commaundement to go vnto them but to depart from them as being daughters of the great Babylon that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth Rev. 18.4 with 17.5 Adde herevnto that even from those Iewes notwithstanding the reasons aforesaid when they put from themselues the truth and would not receive it the Apostles departed and separated themselves yea and shook of the dust of their feet against them teaching others to do so likewise Act. 13.46.51 and 18.6 and 28.25.26.27 28. and 19.8.9 To that of Maister Cranmer Ridley c. is answered before And hitherto of your generall Assumption which was this That the whole doctrine as it is professed and publiquely practised by law in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian Which by the Exceptions and Reasons aforesaid is proved to be vntrue Touching the CoÌ„clusion Now let the godly Reader trying all things by the word of truth iudge whether we or you hold Paradoxes In that which you speak of the reformed Churches you are deceived if you think they allow your present estate and Church constitutioÌ„ Both their publique profession and practise witnesse the contrarie In the answer to Mr T.C. Mr A.H. c. as is declared at large in ‡ other treatises which yet remaine vnanswered Where you say we our selves heretofore have acknowledged and professed it viz your generall Assumption to be true you are againe deceived We have alway testified the contrarie both by our profession and practise and were and are therefore cast into prison appointed to exile and to death besides many other iniuries and grieuances inflicted vpon vs for this verie cause We have in deed acknowledged and do acknowledge that you professe divers excellent truths but that the whole doctrine as it is publiquely professed practized by law in England doth make you in that estate true Christians never any of vs that I know of did once acknowledge Therefore till you shew the contrarie I must needs think you do falselie burthen vs all and speciallie such of vs as you have mentioned here in particular To that of the Martyrs in Queene Maries dayes is answered already Yet for more evidence of the truth I will annexe some particular speaches and testimonies of the Martyrs themselves both then and in former tymes Maister Bradford speaking of the dayes before Queen Marie said ‡ Act. monum In the conference vvith Archb. Heath The tyme was when the Pope was out of England but not all popery And moreover * In his first speach vvith D. Harpsfild That the scripture knoweth not any difference between Bishops and Ministers which men call Priests And that the Scripture speaking of Bishops cannot be vnderstood of Bishops that minister not but lord it Maister Hooper held Hooper on the eight coÌ„mandment That a Bishop should be Bishop but of one Citie and that till the Magistrates bring them to this poinct it shal be as possible to heare a Bishop wade godly and simply through the Scripture in case of Religion as to drive a camell through the eye of a needle And againe he saith The primitiue Church had not such Bishops as be now a dayes And againe What blindnesse saith he is there befell in the world that cannot see this palpable yll that our mother the holy Church had at the beginning such Bishops as did preach many godly Sermons in lesse tyme then our Bishops horses bee a brideling Iohn Bale an exile for the testimonie of Iesu writing vpon the Revelation affirmeth The Image of both churches vpon Rev. 13.1 17.3 That the names of Blasphemy written vpon the Beasts head Rev. 13. and 17. are none other then the proud glittering tytles wherewith they garnish their vsurped authority to make it seeme glorious to the world having within them conteined the great mystery of iniquitie What â—her els saith he is Pope Cardinal MetropolitaÌ„ Primate Archbishop Diocesan Archdeacon Officiall Chauncelour Commissarie Deane Prebend Parson Vicar and such like but very names of blasphemy For offices they are not appoincted by the holy Ghost nor yet once meÌ„tioned in the scriptures This Iohn Bale held and published Then which what can be more full and evident against you And writing vpon the 14. of the Revelation he hath these words To receive the beastes marke in their forheads and hands Ibid. vpon Rev. 14.9 is both to agree to such decrees traditions lawes constitutions actes and proclamations as they vnder those titles have made onely for their owne covetousnes and pompe and neither for the glory of God nor yet for the right maintenance of the Christian common wealth And also to be sworne to the same to subscribe to it to give counsel or ayde to it to mainteine it by learning to minister in it to execute vnder it to accuse punish and put to death for it or to thinke it lawfull and godly with such like
worship and service of God Vnto these questions and the particulers thereof for the causes aforesaid we desire your direct answer with proofes of your answers from the scriptures According to which word if you speak not as I said before so I say againe Esa 8.20 it is because there is no light in you And now to conclude where you would in the end of your writing being not able to answer our Reasons fasten vpō vs some strange passion yea meere desperatnes for separating from you and answering of you as we have done we refer it to the godly and discreet Reader to iudge by that which hath ben said on both parts whether it bee not your selves that are taken with the strange passion you speake of and driven therevnto by meer desperatnes when for to mainteyne your owne estate you will haue the scriptures to fall and exalt the Church and Magistrate above Christ himself even flesh and blood above God blessed for ever Your practise whereof see before Pag. 28. 91. 100. 105. 135. c. But for this all your vnrighteous dealing against the truth people of God we leaue you to the Lord who searcheth the heart and tryeth the raynes to giue euery man according to his wayes according to the fruite of his workes That is to them that by cōtinuance in weldoing seek glorie honor and immortalitie eternall life But vnto them that are contentious and disobey the trueth obey vnrighteousnes indignation wrath Ier. 17.10 with Rom. 2.6.7.8 H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 9. Reason IN this your defence of the last Reason you mislike that I say it is a fallacy and you say I shew none Marke what I say Euery one of your Reasons I say every one is a very proper fallacy and an artificiall parte of Sophisterie as by my seuerall answers to them may appeare Your First Reason is called in the scholes Fallacia ab eo quod est secundum quid ad simpliciter prouing a thing to be simply by that which is but after a sort The Second is the very same The Third Fallacia equiuocationis A fallacie of Ambiguity The Fourth is the very same The Fift is petitio principij a begging of the question The Sixth the very same fallacie that was in the First and Second Reasons The Seauenth Eight and Ninth haue all the Fallacy of Equiuocation and if you will the same with that in your First Second and Sixt Reasons also Further where you say that here I graunt you the cause it is very absurd The Apostle 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 saying separate from such hath a two fould sence Either such as teach otherwise then the trueth fundamentally and then separate wholly Or not fundamentally but erring only in poincts lesse then the foundation and theise diuersely also Either presumptuously obstinately and of a desperate conscience and then if that appeare separate from such wholy Or els erring in simplicitie of ouersight and former preiudice from such separate nor wholly but only from the very error or errors in no wise from their Christian communion and societie seeing theise are true Christians Seing therefore our corruptions of the Praelacy and Ceremonies be of these latter sort which thing hetherto you haue not nor cannot ouerthrowe withall you must vtterly ouerthrowe Mast Cranmer the rest of the Martirs their Christianitie like wise Therefore wee in England by the grace of God are still true Christians you ought so to acknowledge vs as you will answer vnto God All which you may doe yet touch no parte of our Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to giue allowance vnto them And in all this there is no contradiction with my selfe it is but your distempered conceipt that seemeth contrarie Nither is our absolute departure from the Papists hereby anie whit impeached Wee haue iustlie forsaken them cleane because by their very professiō and doctrine wee canot esteeme them true Christians neither in case of saluatiō while they so remaine but indeed very Antichrists as the scripture proueth Which thing also if you say of vs you say falslie it is our present question and you doe not proue it nor euer can doe As for your 17. poincts of false doctrine which you most falsly lay to our chardge what haue I to doe with them I list not to meddle at this prsent but with that which wee haue in hand◠namely to iustifie that our publike booke of Articles of Religion so farre forth as that it erreth not fundamentally conteyneth sufficient to make a true Christian As it doth not Against the which hetherto you haue brought nothing worth the hearing as we haue seene After you would proue vs to be like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from But without all good reason They were not so many but they were easily certified of the truth that Paul preached but how infinitly many moe are there in this land that know nothing of this controuersie 2. Secondly Paul was better able to conuince them by the scriptures and did more effectually and apparantly then you doe or can our whole Realme 3. Thirdly how many learned are there in this lande that have many probable seeming reasons alleadge them publish them for the Praelacy against you are vnanswered And yet will you say they are conuicted those infinite others depēding on them I say cōuicted aswell as those Iewes What if these speake euill of that which you hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme Are they all yea all the land therefore abolished from Christ Might not all this at least be sayd of the whole estate of the Iewes in Christes time and after aswell yet they ceased not to bee Churches why then are you so partiall against vs Lastly you would shew Reasons why the Apostles wholy separated not from the Iewes Synagogues after Christ Act. 13.14 c. Which you will in no wise haue to serue vs. But alas for all your Exceptions against vs you haue neuer a reason but one and that is petitio principij That wee were neuer separated from the world nor set in the way order of Christ but in the confusion and defection of Antichrist whose Ministerie c. were neuer the ordinances of God c. This is but crauing the whole question And I haue refuted these quarells in a short writing hereafter following about the comparison of the Ministerie with Mariage which yet you haue no leysure to answer this whole three yeares togeather and vpwarde And further you doe not shew any vtter and apsolute separation from the whole Church of the Iewes a great while after Christ but the contrarie is seene Act. 21.23.24.26 though from some one or two synagogues they separated after full experience of their obstinate malitious resistance of the truth which we deny not Touching the Conclusion In the cōclusion of my former Reply to proue your vtter separation from vs a Paradox
First I alledged all the reformed Churches For who knoweth not but they all hold CoÌ„munioÌ„ with vs as Churches of God yet you dare either deny this or vtterly peruert it You tell vs of your Answers to Maister Cartwright Mr. Hildersam that are vnanswered If they be like to this your answer here verely they doe wisest in yeelding silence to such friuolous wandring wordes Secondly I alleadged your selues to haue acknoledged heretofore That our publique doctrine allowed would did make many of vs true Christians You too shamefully deny it And say you are for witnessing against it imprisoned banished c. Whereto I answer that if for these things you are troubled I know none can pittie you And because you say none of you euer acknowledged it I will therefore repeat your owne words Mr. BARROW in his last answer in writing to Mr Gifford intituled A fevv obseruations to the reader of Mr. Giff. last Reply Sect. 4. saith thus The next calumniations whereby Mr Gifford indeuoreth to bring vs into hatred with the whole Lande is That we condemne all the persons both men and women of England which are not of our minde and pluck them vp as tares wherein me thinkes he doeth vs open wrong if not against his owne conscience yet against our expresse writngs every where c. Have we not commended the faith of the English Martyr and 〈◊〉 thousand notwithstanding the false offices and gâ—â—â—â— corruptions in the worship they exercised not doubting but the mercy of God through their syncere â—aith to Iesus Christ extended and super abounded above all their sinnes seene and vnseene And what now should let that we should not have the same hope where the same pretious faith in syncerity and simplicity is found So that they neither neglect to search out the truth nor despise the truth when they see it c. Aftervvard in the same Section The faithfull servants of Christ denying the whole constitution and government of this Church of England may iustly deny the people whilest they remaine in that constitution to be members of a true constituted Church yet hereby not condemne them with any such peremptory sentence as Maister Gifford suggesteth Nota from Christ to cut them of from Gods election or from Christ Mr PENRIE in his confession of faith published in writing a litle before his death saith thus The trueth of doctrine touching the holy Trinitie touching the Natures and Offices of Christe Iustifying faith Sacramentes Eternall life and the rest established by her Maiesties Lawes and professed by her selfe their Honors and such as haue knowledge in the Assemblies of this land I acknowledge from my heart to be such as if I mainteined not the vnitie and held not the communion of the same doctrine with them in these poincts I could not possibly be saved For out of the communion of the true profession which her Maiestie hath established in these and the like truthes there is no hope of saluation lâ—ft But ioyne notwithstonding with the publique worship in the assemblies of this Land I dare not for the former causes I doe moreouer willingly confesse That many both of the Teachers also of the Professors within these Parish assemblees haue so embraced this truth of doctrine established and professed in this Land as the Lord of his infinite goodnes hath graunted them the fauour to shew outwardly many tokens whereby in regard of the Lordes election I professe before men and Angels that I iudge them to be meÌ„bers of that body whereof the sonne of God Christ Iesus is the head Onely herein the Lord be mercifull vnto them as to my self in regard of my sinnes That they are not vnder that outward forme of gouernement that Christ hath left c. And in his examination before Master Fanshaw lately published by your selves in print he confesseth the Churches of England to be the true Churches of Christ And what say you Maister Iohnson Have you not affirmed this thing your self to me and to Maister Philips namely towching your owne selfe when you were of vs That then you doubted not but you were a true regenerate Christian By vertue of what doctrine By extraordinarie reuelation Nay but by our publique doctrine of our Church when you stoode and continued a publique Minister of the same If you beleued so of your selfe and that truely vvhat letteth but you may beleeue the like of many Thousands novve Further vvhere you say my applying of the Martyrs is answered before Let the Reader iudge You shevv here that some of them misliked the Hyerarchie But it maketh stronger against you seeing for all that they themselves refused not to communicate and partake vvith them as true Christians as Hooper Bale Bradford c. After vvhere you say though the reformed Churches your selves and the Martyrs had thought otherwise then you now do yet all this is no so und proof against you Yes in deed that novv you hold a Paradoxe those vvitnesses are sufficient for that vvhere vnto may be added the vvhole Churches iudgment and practize vvith all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300. or 1400. yeares Chrysostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom. Austen Ambrose c. They all have thought that vnder the Prelacie and humane ceremonies men may be true Christians Then these witnesses are sufficient that your denyall hereof is a strange vnusuall opinion that is a Paradox Finally to trie vs you propound a many of questions But I leave all this superfluous stuffe to your self to be pondered First let vs cleare this present question and your Reasons hereabout Till then we have no leasure to medle further The Lord of his mercy open your eyes to see your extremitie whereby you do greatly hinder not helpe the truth Not a Firâ—â—â— for victorie but a lover of truth which you would seem to suffer for That you may indeed shew your self as becometh a Christian Pastor not impossible to erre but no lover of error * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not regarding your owne but the prayse of Christ in all things AMEN Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr. Iacobs 2. Reply to the 9. Reason AS if your bare word were proof ynough still you say but never prove that this Reason is a fallacy Yea and all the Reasons before in your schoole-learning are likewise But the best is you are not the greatest Clerk the schooles have knowen Every of the Reasons is proved before to be true direct sound and strong against you And in all your Replyes against them what els have you done but played the Sophister and that notablie Apply therefore to your self what you speake here And of all these things now let the Reader iudge It seemeth verie absurd vnto you that I say you do here graunt vs the cause But what if the absurditie be found in your self Marke then first your owne words before Pag. 156. ‡ We graunt say you so far forth as we hold otherwise then truth so
constitution of your Church aswell as the other if not also more They are publiklie authorised among you aswell as the other whether you respect the Prelates and Clergy in the Conuocation house or the whole body of the Land in the Parliament They are generallie receyved professed and practised of all the people in every Parish and Cathedrall Church throughout the Land aswell as the other Yea and more too your selves being witnesses One of your owne Prophets Mr Giff. Di. of the strife of the Church Pag. 100. writing of your estate saith There be thousands which be men and women growen that if a man aske them how they shall be saved they cannot tell Neither can your felf deny this to be true How do they then know and professe the faith of your book of Articles Or will you say they are as ignorant of your Service-book and of your Prelates other Articles Iniunctions Courts c. vnto which they ioyne and submit dayly Either therefore you must meddle with the false doctrines and other publik books of your Church aswell as with that book of Articles whereof you speak or els you meddle not at all with the question between vs neither defend your Churches estate The question between vs is Whether the truths you professe together with the false doctrines and abominations of Antichrist retained among you do make you true Churches and I true Christiās in that estate If you keep not to this point you may make as faire a plea for the Church of Rome and all other Hereticks whilest you meddle not with their errors and false doctrines but looke onely at the truths they professe Mynd but the Papists profession concerning Christ and his full and sufficient satisfaction for all our sinnes whereof I spake before Pag. 47. And consider now with your self how well and soundlie you have defended your Churches estate How your doctrine and constitution erreth fundamentally I have declared before Pag. 22. 114. 147. But now though you have no list to meddle with your Churches doctrine yet let vs see in your next Reply if your list will be to deale with your owne Your owne I say which I had from your self and take to be private to your self I had it from you in a Conference which passed “ between you and me April 3. 1597 in the presence of divers that can witnesse it Yet for more certainty and better remembrance I desired and obteined of you to write it downe your self So you gave it me then vnder your hand in writing which I have with me yet to shew Thus it is word for word A power borrowed from Antichrist to excommunicate may externally be committed vnto a people vsed by them who have power to excommunitate from Christ Henry Iacob When you had thus set it downe I desired your proof of it from the Scriptures But none could be had I could not obteine that at your hands Therevpon I tooke the paper and wrote vnderneath your assertion thus This is against the Scriptures 1 Cor. 5.4.5 compared with 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 Ezech. 43.8 Mat. 18.17.18.19.20 1 King 18.21 Fran Iohnson It is a good while Mr Iacob synce this passed between vs and like that you have had leysure ynough to consider of it all this tyme. Therefore in your next I hope you will have some list to meddle with this doctrine of your owne though you have none at all for your Churches Yet for the doctrines of your Church also because I am fallen into the mention of them againe let me put you in mynd of two things mo Mat. 13.24 c. The first is towching the parable of the tares spoken of before Pa. 158. of which because it is straungelie and daylie perverted among you for the maintenance of your confused and wicked estate therefore will I here in particular adde a word or two more besides that which I annexed before for the further explication of this point and conuiction of your error As first that you do consider with your selves if with this parable agree not also the Apostles doctrine where he calleth the Church the house of God and saith that in this house are not onelie vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and earth and that as some of them be for honor so some be also to dishonor from which therefore if anie purge himself he shal be a vessel vnto honor sanctifyed and meet for the Lord and prepared to every good work 1 Tim 3.15 5.24.25 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2.16.17.18.19.20.21 3.5 Next that howsoever the parable be vnderstood by anie whether of 1 the generall estate of the Church from the beginning of the world to the end thereof how Sathan alway hath his tares his wicked ones sometymes more open sometymes more secret even as God alway hath his righteous children and servants vntill the day of that finall and everlasting separacion Mat. 13.35.40 2 Or the particular estate of the Church in the tyme of Antichrists apostasy wrought by Sathan vntill the discovery and full abolition thereof 2 Thes 2 3.-14 3 Or the Churches continuall being and cōversing in the world with the children of the wicked Which they must needs do or els they must go out of the world as the Apostle affirmeth 1 Cor. 5.9.10 Howsoever I say the parable be vnderstood whether of these or any the like yet doth it no way make for the receiving or reteining of the knowen wicked whosoever they be in the body of the Church The scope of the parable by these interpretations also leading to no such thing but onelie to comfort and instruct the godlie how to carry themselves with patience and wisdome in such estate of things in the world And the Apostle whose doctrine doubtles is not contrarie to Christs teacheth expressely in that place to the Corinthians and the other mentioned before both that the Church is a distinct body separated from the world not partaking in their evill wayes and that if anie of the Church will not so walk but commit iniquity and repent not that then they be so far from being suffred to grow or remaine any longer in the Church as they be forthwith cast out of it and delivered vnto Sathan the Prince of the world and children of disobedience even the Enemy that soweth the tares here spoken of And thus also was the Apostles practise For both which that is both his doctrine and practise herein see these Scriptures 1 Cor. 5. chap. 2 Cor. 2 6-11 6 14.-17 Act. 19.9 Ro. 16.17 Ephes 2.1.2 Gal. 5.12 2 Thes 3.6.14 1 Tim. 1.20 6.3.4.5 2 Tim. 2 16-21 3.5 4.14.15 Tit. 3.10 Heb. 10.38.39 To conclude then albeit that such having crept into the Church do both before and after their excommunication as do also the other of the world who never received the faith offend and trouble the Church and children of the kingdome yea and do often flourish also in outward
Church in their Masse and Ministery as with yours in your worship and Hierarchy But further by this aunswer you yeeld that the Martyrs spake and wrote against your Church estate Which being so whether do you or we I pray you the better You in following the error of their practise Or we in receyving the truth of their testimonie And then if all that you say be graunted is it ought but this that you have the weaknes and sinne of their practise for a cloke of your standing in evill whereas we have the truth and soundnes of their iudgement for our walking in that which is good Now let others iudge which of vs follow them best and have the best interest in them And let it also be mynded that they then comming newlie out of the darknes of Poperie and being exercised also with other points of that religion neither did nor could so consider of this matter as synce their tyme in this clearer light it hath in our dayes ben discussed Lastlie if you will have this answer of yours go for currant then will I by like reason prove that you may also submit to the Popes authority and receive all the corruptions of the Romish Church And albeit that which I have alreadie said of the auncient Martyrs before be sufficient for proof hereof yet will I shew it you further thus The Protestants you know do vsually alledg against the Popes Antichristian authority and other corruptions of that Church the sayings of Bernard Beda c. Suppose now the Papists should answer as you do here This maketh stronger against you seing for all that yet they themselues refused not to yeeld to the Popes supremacy and to partake with this Church as being Christs c. What would you reply againe Either you must say as the truth is that this answer is wandring and frivolous or els you must needs confesse that by this reason of yours you may also receive the Pope and all that popery which is alreadie cast out of England and communicate therewith Which I pray God be not the issue of this your pleading for and partaking with the remnants of Antichrist yet held in your Church To that where I demaunded If it were so that the reformed Churches we our selves and the Martyrs of former tyme had given allowance of your present estate and Church-constitution what would this help you when as the word of God condemneth you c. You aunswer that those witnesses are sufficient for this that we hold a Paradox So the testimony of Man if you had it is of more force with you then the warrant of Gods word And whatsoever the Scripture saith yet to you it is a Paradox if it be gainsaid by the reformed Churches c. Blush for shame Mr Iacob and fear any more to publish such godles assertions and shameles Paradoxes All your clipping and perverting of my words will not help you Neyther your new supply of the whole Churches iudgement practise with all the auncient learned Fathers these 1300 or 1400 yeares Chrisostome Epiphanius Nazianzen Hierom Austen Ambrose c. As if they had knowen and practised the Antichristian abominations now had in your Church But when you bring proof of this your lavish speach it will then be tyme ynough to aunswer it In the meane tyme heare what Mr Tindall that faithfull Martyr sayd speaking of the Prelates and Priests in his age for their so alledging the Fathers as you do As for the holy Doctors saith he as Augustine Hierome Cyprian Chrysostomus and Bede will they not heare If they wrote any thing negligently as they were men that draw they cleane contrary to their meaning and thereof triumphe they Those Doctors knew of none authority that one Bishop should have above another neyther thought or once dreamed that ever any such should be This is Mr Tindall his speach and observation Which you may mynd I note it now for this that you may see how your Forefathers alledged the Doctors and how it stands you vpon well to mynd what proof is brought from them whether it be for this point which here he nameth or for anie other corruptions of Antichrist retayned among you Some of which I have rehearsed * before in particular Pag. 63. c. for which I will expect your proof from such antiquity as you speak of ad Kalendas Graecas in deed never And yet I know that both 1400 yeares synce and before also they began to declyne very much But Antichrist notwithstanding came not of a long tyme after to that height and impiety wherein now he is to be seen and felt both in your Church and in your mother of Rome Note also that when all is said that can be in this matter it is but a Popish shift to fly from the Scriptures to the Fathers and an impious Paradox to exalt their sayings who are knowen to have erred in manie things above the word of God which alone is the rule of truth and can not lye at all Finally you say that to try you I propound a many of questions Yet they are but seven in all In deed I think it doth and will try both you and your fellow Priests to aunswer them Such superfluous stuffe they are And have you not read too Iob. 32.3 how ‡ Iobs frends condemned him and yet could fynd no answer Apply it to your selves and your dealing with vs. But you say you would first have vs cleare this present question and our reasons thereabout Well besides that is already done the deciding of these few questions will fully and plainly do it Let others iudge if it would not And mynd you then what you have answered To shut vp all you tell vs aforehand you have no leysure to meddle further Very like so You have leysure ynough to write book after book to no purpose yet you have not so much as to aunswer a few short questions which may end all the controversie between vs. He that can not see how you would shift of the matter and yet labour to withold the truth in vnrighteousnes what doth he see The Lord open your eyes Mr Iacob that your self may see and mynd it As for others that be seduced by you and the rest of your Prophets teaching lyes let them in tyme afore it be to late apply vnto you and themselves in such estate that which is written The leaders of the people cause them to erre and they that are led by them are devoured Esa 9.16 Therefore also let them all even whosoever feare God and will be assured of his mercy give no rest to their soules vntill with the Prophet they can say in truth of heart and shew it forth in their practise My portion O Lord I have said to keep thy words I have considered my wayes turned my feet into thy testimonyes I made hast delayed not to keep thy commaundements I have refrayned my feet from every evill way
later have seen before their eyes the mischief that followed vpō that declining which the other of former time neither did nor could Adde herevnto the great vnlikenes when they are compared together in their Offices Entrance Titles prerogatives Courts Canons Iurisdiction and other procedings And tell me why you left out Cyprian in your printed Book whō you named in your written copy for which cause I have now also noted his Name with the rest Is it so that you see alreadie how he is against you Assure your self Mr Iacob that so will the rest also be found lesse or more I alway except the Prelates of Rome whensoever due triall and comparison is made Which I neither need nor purpose here to stand vpon seing these things are purposely hādled and alreadie published by others well knowen and approved also of your selves as by Mr Beza against Saravia T. C. his 1. and 2. Reply The Demonstration c. I omit also that yours are become persecuters whereas the other were persecuted Therefore your sinne is far the greater And many other things I might alledge but it sufficeth vs and hereon we rest that your Prelacy and other Ministery Worship c. are none of Christs ordinances appointed in his word If you be other wise mynded prove it by the book of God Ioh. 17.17 Psa 119.105 Esa 8.20 You know that †it alone is the word of truth and ought to be vnto all the lāterne of our feet Hence forth therefore speak according to that word and seek not by the lesse sinnes of others to hide and nourish your owne far greater Otherwise remember and applie to your selves the judgement that is written Exod. 20.5 Ps 129.21 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 14.9.10.11 and 22 18.19 And note these things withall 1. First That here you speak of such as live and dy in your errors ignorantly Now what defence is this for your self Mr Iacob and for all the rest of your Church throughout the Land who do not onelie know these errors but have also taught professed and witnessed against them heretofore 2. Secondly that here you are glad to vse the same pretences as rusty weapons against the truth which were sometymes vsed by D. Whitgift and the Papists for defence of the Prelacy and found to be of no force at all 3. Thirdly that whatsoever you speak here in excuse of your conviction may be likewise alledged by the Papists and other Hereticks for defence of them selves viz that they are not all cōvicted sinne against their cōscience also that such and such points are not acknowledged even of ignorance in a thousand to one among them that many of them and not of the simplest hold their way to be the onely true and right course and almost all of them to be indifferent and lawfull very few and scarce any that see it to be meerly wicked and intolerable Yet these are the reasons and armour of proof you bring for defence of your Hierarchie and Church-estate And what should I speak of your manifold contradictions fearfull clauses notable vntruthes c. Your cōtradictions as when you graunt here Pag. 28. 61 This is your generall sinne and yet said before you held these to be Christs ordinances Your pretended excuse that you speak some things in your owne person some things in your Churches I have shewed before to be vayne and against your self Pag. 55. 56. 72. Another contradiction in that you professe the auncyent Bishops and yours have declyned viz from the truth and way of Christ or els tell vs in your next from what and yet plead as if your Church generally were eyther ignorant hereof or held your present governement to be the onely true and right kind or at least to be indifferent and lawfull c. For how I pray you can these stand together If you say your self know thus much but as for any others that know it they are very few and searse to be found these I take it are your owne words this is but a vaine conceit of your self and such as is still accompanied with folly There are no doubt a thousand to you who are but one that know these things aswell or better a great deale Yea I know manie of your Church my self who have taught and writtē far more soundly and godly of them then ever Mr Iacob did And if these had all held their peace yet your Book of common prayer as grosse as it is knoweth thus much ‡ In the Commination that in the Primitive Church there was a godly disclpline which it saith is much to be wished that it might be restored agayne The particular there mentioned I stand not vpon I note it onelie for this that you may see even by that book received among you generally how your Church neither is so ignorant of the estate of things in former tymes as you pretend neither thinketh your present government to be the onelie true kind c. Not to speak of your so manie and so publik suites to the Parliament to have it removed as being vnlawfull and Antichristian Neither of the many books printed with Priviledge avowching as much A third contradiction till you cleare it better note in this also that you acknowledge they in K. Edw. tyme were godly learned and yet insinuate withall as if they were litle better then tyme-servers Your fearfull clauses importing partlie a yeelding of the cause partly a seeking of starting holes and excuses for your sinne As when you say 1. Let this be our generall sinne yet there is diversity of sinnes 2. All sinnes by their nature are mortall yet do they not all alike abolish vs from Christ 3. This sinne of outward Church-orders is not of the most heynous nor extremest disobedience 4. There are sinnes wherein men living and dying ignorantly without particular repentance may be saved 5. No greater is now in our Bishops presently especially towching our Churches and Ministers too generally 6. If you say we are all convicted now it is false 7. The godly learned Protestants in King Edwards tyme were not vtterly ignorant of this poynt of reformation 8. The Iewes were not generally plainely convicted 9. Our Assemblyes are not all godles and profane Our sinne destroyeth not faith Christianity in our whole Assemblyes c. As if your self thought it did in some Your notable vntruths also are many as when you alledge Mr Beza vpō Act. 15.20 as if he spake of such Iewes as did personally hate and persecute Christ where as he speaketh expressely of such as beleved in Christ but were withall zealous of the Law being not yet perswaded of the abolishment thereof Agayne when from him you would teach that they which did personally hate and persecute Christ yet were the true Church vntill the Temple and City were destroyed yea and saved though they repented it not Which is contrarie to these and many the like Scriptures Act. 2.40.47 and 13.45.46.50.51 and 19.8.9 1. Thes
2.14.15.16 Rev. 2.9 Another vntruth is that you say the sinne of your Bishops now is no greater then of the auncyent declining Bishops and them in K. Edwards tyme Whereas many wayes it is incomparably greater as I have shewed before Pag. 40. 41. 129. 133. 148. 162. 175. 177. 183. 203. Another is in that you say your sinne is no way fundamental The contrarie whereof see proved before Pag. 22. 73. 114. 147. And another when you charge me as if I held all among you to be godles and profane when I have alway thought and professed otherwise Yea even here I said your Church coÌ„sisteth of all sorts that is both good and bad better and worse some making coÌ„scieÌ„ce of their wayes according to the knowledg they have some not c. For which also see further before Pag. 7. 20. 21. 41. 78. 103. 168. 178. Finallie it is â—either vntrue also when you say this poynt towching the Hierarchy is not acknowledged in your Church even of ignorance in a thousaÌ„d to one Or if it be true it is a shame for you and all the Ministers of your Church who have not in this cleare light of the Gospell by the space of fourty yeares together made knowen vnto the people so great a point of Antichristianity as the Hierarchy is Which is the verie sinewes and strength of the Popes Religion As I feare wofull experience will teach you further if yet you do not see and feel it ynough But of this also I have spoken before in the Preface Section 6. Lo here the ornaments of your Reply and Defence of your estate The very naming whereof is sufficient to shew your folly and your Churches miscrie Yet least you should please your self in this course as also for the satisfying of such as desier further handling of these things I have spoken of them before more particularly As namely of sinnes fundamentall Pag. 22. 32. 44. 46. 51. 73. 114. 147. Of the Scriptures which here you alledge in the margent Pag. 51. and in the Preface Section 3. Of the Iewes Church Pag. 84. 161. 195. 197. in the Preface Section 5. Of the auncient Bishops Pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of them in K. Edwards dayes Mr Cranmer c. Pag. 8. 40. 41. 48. 49. 67. 77. 162. 182. Of your Churches estate and conviction Pag. 3. 7. 16. 27. 33. 42. 43. 53. 60. 61. 63 73. 78. 82. 94. 101. 103. 108. 120. 130. 131. 132. 135. 147. 155. 157. 171. 180. 188 194. 196. 200. c. Your caution against rash hasty iudging of any is very good and needfull We do together with you exhort all to beware of such dealing and to take heed they †iudge righteous iudgement as Christ hath commauÌ„ded And therefore that they be careful to search out and help forward the iudgment Ioh. 7.24 given by the Apostles and Prophets on the Whore of Babylon and all her Daughters Rev. 18.20.21 and 17.1.5.6.7 with Ier. 51 61-64 Neither let any think that this is to curse where God blesseth or to lay an hindrance and stumbling block before any but that it is in deed to reward Babylon as she hath rewarded vs and to beare witnes to the truth and syncerity of the Gospell Rev. 18.6 14.6.7.8 2 Thes 2.8 that it may the more be brought to light and received of the elect to eternall life To such we know Christ with all his ordinances is precious but in deed to them which be disobedient he is a stone to stumble at and a rock of offence even to them which stumble at the word being disobedient to the which thing they were also ordeined 1 Pet. 2.7.8 Take heed therefore you blesse not your selves in your disobedience of anie truth of Christ promising your selves peace though you walk according to the stubbernes of your owne hearts so adding drunkenes vnto thirst For such blessing God hath threatned to curse Deut. 29.19.20 Zach. 11.5.6 Malach. 2.2 For our selves we judge not any man It is the word of God that iudgeth which shall also judge in the last day Ioh. 12.48 By it therefore let every man trie and examine his wayes of what place or calling soever he be first for the worship he performeth vnto God and then for all the other actions of his life that he may so please God in this life as he may in the next be partaker of the glorie that shal be revealed Neither let anie be daunted with the reproches and afflictioÌ„s which accompanie the truth and witnesses thereof Even Christ himself the Prince of our salvation was consecrate through afflictions and he hath promised if we suffer with him we shall also raigne with him Heb. 2.10 Rev. 2.10 Rom. 8.17.18 2 Tim. 2.12 Therefore also we say with the Prophet as you do here and wish it might sound in the eares of all men as a trumpet Blessed is he that iudgeth wisely of the poore even of him that is despised c. Psal 41.1 To conclude your one word whereof you told vs a litle before is now become two words and all litle ynough For if your reason be good all me your self if a man might not after your example in two words conclude the Papists also to be true Christians thus That faith and religion taught in the Creeds commonly attributed to the Apostles the Nicene Councell Athanasius c. maketh the people that beleev and obey the same true Christians such as so living and dying may be saved But the Popish Church doth so hold that faith Therefore they are true Christians c. If your reason be good what will you say to this If you say they professe in word but do in deed both in their Church-constitutioÌ„ and practise denie it such also is your case Besides that the question is not whether anie among you may be saved by the truth you hold For we doubt not but eveÌ„ in the Popish Church God saveth his by the truth there held But the question is whether you or they can in your estate and Church-constitution be deemed by the word of God true Christians or true Churches such as none may separate from your worship and Ministery established among you And here I can tell you that even some of your selves have acknowledged and openly avowched your Churches case to be such Demonstration in the Preface as “ a man may be any thing among you but a sound Christian Yet I suppose you will not say they were desperate for saying so And if I be not deceived your self also have ben like mynded with them heretofore Sure I am you had need cleare these things very well and in anie case take heed you become not desperate therein Neither two nor three of your words will help the matter It is the word of God that must decide it between vs. Whatsoever you have replyed in the former Treatise I have there answered And now I leave it to all indifferent and Christian mynds to acknowledge your
to the first accusation there You reason against people not capable of a Pastor And we speake of true Christians which are alwayes capable You do ill therfore in comparing this action to mariage betwene brother and sister who indeed can not marry Happely you may likelyer compare it to a couple that have lived both of them wantonly Afterwards they marrie togeather and this marriage it selfe they vse not soberly nor temperatly Howbeit for all this I professe these two are truly man and wife notwithstanding Now even so our Churches and Ministers c. Fr. Ioh. his Answer KNowing the question Mr Iacob you might well see if you were not blynd that this is directly vnto it And so in deed it is like the first Reason that is it sheweth the folly of your Comparison and is such as you can not aunswer True it is that we speak of people not capable of a Pastor that is of yours in your Church-constitution And if you speak as you say you do of true Christians which are alwayes capable then speak you not of your people or Assemblyes in your estate And so it is your self that fâ—â—ht with your shadow and towch not the question but still presume that which you should prove viz that standing in Antichristian bondage to the Prelates and their procedings yet notwithstanding you are by the word of God to be judged true Christians having the liberty and power given by Christ to his Church whereof he is the head Till you prove this we must needs think that the comparing of your chusing a Minister in your estate to a brother and sister or such like that can not lawfully marry togeather c. is good and pertinent Your owne comparing of it to a couple that have lived wantonly and afterwards marry together yet vse not their mariage soberly c. descryeth that your self see the wicked and vnlawfull estate of your Ministers and people as now they stand howsoever you labour to hide and excuse it as much as you can And besides if you would describe your estate as it is in deed you should compare it to such as both had and do still live wantonlie and wickedly in adultery and vncleannes whom God will judge Let all such therefore among you as feare God delay no longer but with speed forsake your adulterous wayes and turne vnto the Lord that by his grace you may be “ maryed to him in righteousnes and judgement in mercie and compassion Hos 2 19.2â— and not still run a whoring after your owne inventions and abominations of the man of sinne whom the Lord will destroy Rev. 17 1-6 2 Thes 2.3.4.8 Numb 15.39.40 Ier. 4.18 Chap. 6. The fift Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison Fran. Iohnson THe Priests joyning of the parties doth not make them Man and wife at all but onely the parties mutuall consent But contrarily in the present ecclesiasticall constitutioÌ„ of England the Prelats ordinatioÌ„ maketh the Minister and not the peoples choyse at all H. Iacob his Reply THe second Proposition we here flatly deny It is answered in our last words against the 2. Reason Fr. Ioh. his Answer YOu have an hard forehead Mr Iacob that can flatly deny so cleare a truth But for proof thereof besides your Churches-constitution I cite your books of Articles CanoÌ„s IniunctioÌ„s Statutes togeather with the consent of your whole Church and your book of ordering Priests and Deacons c. All which are so many proofs of the second Proposition and witnesses of the truth which you shame not to deny Is it not your Churches expresse Law that no other be receyved for Ministers but such as are made Priests or Deacons by the Prelates Yea that every one must to this end have his Letters of Orders vnder the Prelates hand and seale that ordeined him Can anie among you though he have the consent of all your people be Parson or Vicar or as you speak one of your Pastors not having the Prelates ordination and institution On the contrarie having these of the Prelate is it not sufficient for him though all your people stand against him Yea must not all the people whether they will or not receive and joyne vnto his Ministery being by the Prelate so ordeined and instituted as aforesaid The truth hereof is so well knowen and yll practised through the whole land as it is straunge any man should have the face to deny it But what wil not Mr Iacob deny when he knoweth not what to aunswer and yet hath not an heart to yeeld to the truth It must needs be a weak and bad cause that can not otherwise be mainteined then by such impudent denyals Your Aunswer to the second Reason before is there taken away and proved to be both against your self and against the Law and constitution of your Church Mynd it better next tyme. Chap. 7. The Sixt Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison aforesaid Fran. Iohnson IF a woman consent to a man that is another womans husband they are not therefore Man and wife So if a people consent to a false Minister they are not therefore true Church and Minister H. Iacob his Reply THis is answered as before in the Fourth Reason It carrieth some likelyhood indeed and some reason against Pluralities but nothing any further Fr. Ioh. his Aunswer NEyther the fourth Reason nor this nor any other of them are yet answered Let others judge And now your self are driven to confesse that this hath both likelyhood and reason against your Pluralityes Which is in deed to yeeld vnto it For tell me if your Pluralitie-men have not as well as the rest among you both the some calling by the Prelates which your Church appointeth and like acceptance of your people who joyne vnto them and mainteine them as you alledged before Pag. 208. The ReasoÌ„ then hath waight not onely against your pluralists but against all your other Ministers too seing they have all of them one and the same false Ministery received from the Prelates and executed vnder them Vnto which you may adde that the Ministery of all among you is such as Christ never set in his Church whether you look at your Offices from the hyest Prelate to the lowest Priest or at your Entrance according to your Churches Canons and Book of ordinatioÌ„ or at your Ministration by your Book of common praier and other your Canons and Injunctions or finally at your maintenance by Tithes Chrismes Offerings c. When you have well mynded these things you shall find this Argument reach a great deale further then to Pluralityes even to all the Ministers of your Church in your estate Make a tryal search the Testament of Christ throughout and if you can shew it to be otherwise If not give glorie to God and yeeld to the truth Chap. 8. The Seuenth Reason or Exception against Mr Iacobs Comparison aforesaid Fran. Iohnson AS when a man and woman have consented each to other if the man do
annexe the testimony of one of the Martyrs a good while synce when Antichrist as yet was but a litle discovered in respect as synce that tyme he hath ben One of the Articles against Iohn Claydon who was burned at London in Smithfield in the yeare 1415 was this That the Bisshops licence for a man to preach the vvord of God is the true character of the Beast that is Antichrist Where marke that albeit a man preach the word of God yet he sayth the Bishops licence so to do is the Beasts marke Act. and Monum edit 5. Pag. 588. b. Thus much I thought to write here also concerning this poynt Yet if D. B. or Mr Iacob for him who do both of them receyve and carry daily the Beasts marks in theyr foreheads and hands and therefore may well have sure knowledge thereof can shew them any better from the word of God I shall willingly heare it And seing that here he wisheth we knew the marks of the Beast a litle better we do also entreat him if his leasure and ability will serve to make them a litle better knowen vnto vs. But I doubt it will now be found in him and the rest of them at this day as Mr Ridley that faithfull Martyr found and complayned in his tyme saying I feare me nay it is certayne the World that wanteth the light of the Spirit of God for the world is not able to receyve him sayth Iohn neyther doth nor shall know the Beast nor his marks though he rage cruelly and live never so beastly and though his marked men be in number like the sand of the sea Act. and Mon. 5. edit Pag. 1618. b. To conclude this matter then may I not well returne theyr ovvne speach vpon themselves and say Surely they are for the most part so wholy given and bend their wits and mynds so much to look into the estate of other men and other Churches and to apply the Scriptures to them as they seldome or never look into their owne estate or apply the Scriptures to themselues But let them look vnto it it will be theyr decay in the end That all errors are alike is a fancy of his owne We did neuer imagine it We know and professe otherwise To give but one instance The Iewes the Arrians the Papists the Mungrell-protestants the Lutherans the Anabaptists c. do all of them at this day erre very greatly concerning the Person or Office of Iesus Christ who is “ 1 Cor. 3.11 the onely foundation of the Church Yet we know theyr errors are not all alike Some are greater some lesser some in one poynt some in another But this we say that all theyr errors are such as every faithfull Christian ought to eschew them and to witnes the contrary truth against them vnto death as they will aunswer to God at that day His obiection likewise of all the commaundements of God to be obeyed alike c. is of his owne coyning I do not think that ever he heard it of any of vs or that he did ever see it in any of our writings If he did he may shew it We know that Christ speaking of the dutyes of the first Table sayth This is first and the great commaundement Mat. 22.39 And that therefore the duâ—â—es of the second table must alway give place to the first as to the greater Math. 10.37.39 Luk. 14.26 Act. 20.24 Except when the mercy commaunded in the second is to be preferred before the ceremonyes required in the first and such like Hos 6.6 vvith Mat. 12 1-7 Luk. 13.14.17 We acknowledge also there is difference in the commaundements of the first Table when they are compared together one with another And in the commaundements likewise of the Second And consequently therefore in the dutyes required in both for our obedience These things are so well knowen as they may learne them of very children Note withall that we are bound to keep not onely the greatest of the commaundements of God but even the very least notwithstanding any perswasion prohibition or persecution to the contrary because they are all from one and the same God with commaundement to obey them all and every one and that vnder payne of damnation Therefore also Christ sayd The Second is like to the first and great commaundement Math. 22.39 Now iff any in this sence do say that all the Scriptures and commaundements of God are fundamentall and to be obeyed alike it may well be vnderstood according to that saying of our Lord Iesus before alledged Mat. 22.38.39.40 Otherwise there is difference to be put as is aforesaid in the dutyes both of the two Tables themselves and of the severall commaundements of each of them His inserting of these two words the Scriptures and fundamentall when he saith that all the Scriptures and commaundements of God are fundamentall and to be obeyed alike I will not now further stand vpon It seemeth he did it for some evasion Which I doubt not but his next Reply if he be not already at a Non plus will make more manifest Till then let this suffice which hath ben said The place of 1 Cor. 3.12.15 both he and Mr Iacob do misvnderstand and misalledge The Apostel speaketh not there of any false doctrine or errors built vppon the foundation but of the entising speach of mans wisdome and vayne eloquence off words By which it came to passe that although they taught nothing but the truth and so buylt vpon the foundation Iesus Christ yet they did it vnworthily and not as became the simplicity of the Gospell of Christ That this is the true and playne meaning of the Apostles speach appeareth thus 1 Cor. 2. 3 chap. 1. First by comparing together the second and third chapters of this Epistle Where all may see that he speaketh not a worde of any error or vntruth that was taught but of the simplicity on the one hand and of the ostentation of speach and humane wisdome on the other which was vsed by the Teachers of Corinth in theyr building vpon the foundation that is in theyr teaching of the truth of Iesus Christ 2. Secondly for that the very terme * 1 Cor. 3.10 here vsed by the Apostle concerneth directly the maner of teaching or building vpon the foundation not the matter taught or built vpon it His words are these Let euery man take heed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hovv he buildeth vpon it The word which he vseth here is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hovv for the manner not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vvhat for the matter 3. Thirdly because for the matter taught the Apostle doth els where give another rule concerning all teachers of errors and false doctrine though they should be Angels from heaven viz. to give them no countenance at all neyther to have any communion with them but to separate from them and hold them accursed 1 Tim. 6 3.4.5 Gal. 1.8.9 Rom. 16.17.18 2 Ioh ver 10.11 Rev. 22.18.19
their plagues Rev. 18.4 And if it be well mynded Mr Iacob himself howsoever he pretend otherwise yet in deed yeeldeth thus much when he is driven to confesse that theyr constitution is such * Pag. 37. 61 69. 70. 84. 154. as they stand in error and that of Antichrist against the Second commaundement in vayne vvorship departing from and denying the faith in their Ministery c. But for these and all the rest thou mayest see and I pray thee good Reader well to mynd the Arguments Replyes and Aunswers following From the reading whereof I will not not now any longer hold thee The God of peace tread Sathan vnder thy feet and by his word and Spirit lead thee into the way of truth to the conservation of thy soule vnto life eternall And if thou reapest any fruit of my labours give prayse vnto God and pray for me the weakest of his servants and vnworthyest of the witnesses of Iesus The grace of our Lord Iesus Christ be with thy spirit Amen Thyne in Christ Fran Iohnson AN AVNSWER TO M. H. IACOBS ARGVMENTS AND REPLIES concerning the Churches and Ministery of ENGLAND Chap. 1. Of the Title of Maister Iacobs Book which is thus A DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministerie of ENGLAND FRAN. IOHNSON his Aunsvver THe defence of the Churches and Ministery of England were an enterprise worth the taking in hand if Maister Iacob effected in deed what the Title of his Book pretendeth in show But he that readeth his book and mindeth it well shall find him promise mountaines and performe molehils Let the sequell shew it Now I would that Maister Iacob should speak himself without stammering what Churches and what Ministerie of ENGLAND he defendeth All or some only It is a poynt needfull to be knowen and mentioned All may see it would giue great light for deciding the controuersy betwen vs. And who would not think he should readily declaer it Yet he flies from it every where Therefore that he may not alway so doe but may be drawen to answer directly vnto it as also for the Readers better help and more clearing of the truth I wil particulerly and as plainely as I can describe how the Churches and Ministerie of England are to be considered And thē expect his aunswer If I be mistaken or if maister Iacob and such as liue in that Church who therefore haue better occasion to know it can do it more fully and plainely I shal willingly heare it In the meane time this is my iudgment First for the Churches to consider them as followeth 1 In respect of the Conuocation-house which consisteth of the Prelates and some other of the Priests assembled togeather with them And so they haue but one Church in the Land And that when there is a Parliament or like occasion I take it also that out of this Church the Prince the Nobles and people are excluded Saue that when they haue determined their matters they haue for some of them the consent of the Parliament 2 According to the number of their Archbishops and so they haue two Metropolitan Churches vnder which all the rest are subiect and cōprised 3 According to the number of their Arch and Lord Bishops and so there are about 26. Churches comprehending all within their seuerall Diocesses Hither also I referre the Cathedrall Churches 4 According to the ecclesiastical Courts of the Archbs. Lordbs Chancelors Archdeacons Commissaries and Officials vnder which all the other Ministers and people stand subiect and so according to the number of those Courts there may be some 200. Churches or thereabout 5 According to the number of the Parish assemblies of which all stand mēbers and so ther are many thousād Churches in the Land Hitherto of the Churches The Ministery may be considered two wayes Eyther more generally as they are all Priests or Deacons or more particularly as they are superiour or inferiour Superiour as Archbishops Lordbishops Suffraganes Deanes Archdeacons and the rest of that sort Inferiour as Parsons Vicars Curates Stipendary Preachers Houshold Chapleynes and the like Then in al these consider fower things 1. their office 2. their entrāce 3. their Administration 4. their maintenance This for the Ministerie Now let M. Iacob tell vs in his next 1. whether he defend all these Churches and Ministerie of England or but some of them 2. If not all but some only which then they are that he defendeth and which he leaveth as vtterly vnlawfull without all defence 3. For those he defendeth let him show in what place and pages of his book we may find the defence of them For whether it be that I perceyue it not or that he doth it not of this I am sure for my self that I cannot find in al his book so much as any one of them defended As others find let thē speak And to put al out of doubt let M. Iacob shew it Lastly if he will be intreated let him tell the cause why his book being entituled A defence of the Churches Ministerie of England came not out Cum priuilegio Yea why it was printed beyond sea and not in England It is a shrewd token cōsidering the title that his Defence euen at home amōg his neighbours is accoūted very weak and simple For the name Brownists by which we are reproched in the forefrōt of his book note these things 1. That in like manner long since by the Priests and Pharisees were the Apostles and Primitiue Churches termed * Act. 24.5 a sect of Nazarites and at this day by the Papists are the Professors of the Gospel called Calvinists Zuinglians Huguenotes and the like 2. M. Browne from whose name this byword was first taken vp is a member and Minister of M. Iacobs Church not of ours yet holding as we heare in his iudgment the truth we professe but for his practise stāding in the apostasy and false worship wherein they are So then not we but M. Iacob and such like may fitly be called Brownists inasmuch as in their iudgment they hold the things we stand for to be good yet in their practise like Browne are other men walking with the Church of England in her euill way 3. For our selues we acknowledg with the disciples in the Primitiue Churches and the faithful in al ages since that we are ‡ Act. 11.26 Christians striuing now for our time and estate against the remainder of the abominations of Antichrist to keep the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus Therefore doth it not trouble vs that by M. Iacob or any other we are thus reuiled for the name of Christ It is inough for vs that the †1 Pet. 4.14 spirit and truth of God which on their part is euil spoken of is on our part glorified But yet let him and all such take heed vnto it in time Now I proceed to his maine and maimed Argument Which is as followeth Chap. 2. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it is novv propounded and printed by vvhich
three generall pointes 1. That euerie person in England holding our publique faith is no true Christian 2. That all the Christians Churches in King Edwards time namely Maister Cranmer M. Ridley M. Hooper M. Latimer M. Philpot M. Saunders M. Rogers M. Tailor c. were all lims of Antichrist and no true Chaistians 3. That euery soule in England is conuicted in conscience that the PraelaÌ„cie is vnlawfull and vntolerable The First of these is our maine question and the ground of all our reasoning which you gainsay The second though it be not expresly spoken yet it is directly euidently and vndeniably concluded by all and euery of your arguments against vs. As in the seueralls hereafter we shal see The third you are driueÌ„ vnto for defence of your former Assertion which els falleth to the grounde And this you affirme flatly in your defence of your 1. 6. and 7. Reasons Now my desire is that all men would take notice of these your 3. Assertions and consider indifferently whether they proceed from an honest a sober or a Christian minde And you M. Iohnson if you list hereafter to say any more defend these 3. pointes directly and plainly that your aunswers may be briefer and more certain then now they are And novv I come to the particular examination of your former aunsvver First you say You omitted the PropositioÌ„ before not for the soundnes of it but only because you would see how I meant it Why He that hath but half an eie may see the meaning of those wordes where is no darknes nor doubtfulnes of sence at all What fault finde you in it now Forsooth first a want in Assumption and then vntruthes both in the Proposition and Assumption of my Sillogisme There vvanteth you say that I should expresse in the AssumptioÌ„ That our Assemblies be companies gatherd togeather in the doctrines ordinances which we all by lawe publiquely professe and practise Who but a wrangler would not vnderstand that I meant so much Nay doe not my expresse wordes implie asmuch when I say We by law publiquelie professe and practise them Then are not our Assemblies which are by law gathered together in this professioÌ„ power Fy forshame these are sencelesse cauilations But because what in me lieth I would not haue you any more to stumble at a strawe Not that the Argument is vnsound vvithout this addition But because the Reader may see hovv you vvil play at a small game rather then sit out â—â—aâ—unt I haue to satisfie you withall now added those wordes to the Assumption aforesaid in a contrarie letter which you desire viz. and our publique assemblies are therein gathered together Secondly you say that my proposition meaneth that whatsoeuer is held togeather with that which otherwise might make a true Christian or true Church Yet notwithstanding they are so to be reputed as if there were no such additions or commixtures O strange dealing in all my writing I haue no such word no sillable no letter sounding to that sence I haue directly contrarie in my aunswer to your fourth ReasoÌ„ as your self noteth there Yet you M. Iohnson without all shame in the view of the world doe Father on me this foule vntruth most sencelesse errour in your first entrance Further whereas it seemeth you reproue my Proposition requiring to to haue it set thus Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a perticular man a true Christian and hath nothing added with it destroying the foundation of faith That is sufficient to make a companie so gathered together a true Church You must know M. Iohnson that that were an idle vaine addition for wheresoeuer there are any such things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient indeed it is not sufficient to make a true Christian Wherefore nodum inscirpo quaeris this is to finde a knot in a rush Thus much concerning the trunes of my Proposition The AssuÌ„ption examined by the Exceptions Reasons follovving Lastlie you come to deny my Assumption or rather to maintaine your deniall heretofore giuen Where first note that by denying my assumption you affirme the first generall point noted in this beginning That euerie particular person in England holding our publique faith here is no true Christian Which O Lorde who would not tremble to think on Euen that which this man aboue two yeates agoe affirmed and novv againe aduisedly and wilfully defendeth I take Heauen and Earth to record this day whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs examine your exceptions and reasoÌ„s against my Assumption more particularly wee shall see what stuffe it is Your first exception against the same is as followeth Fr. Iohnson his 3. Aunâ—wer VVHat M. Iacob Doth your mouth so runne ouer as you could not but eueÌ„ at first speak vntruth and forge deceit When your beginning is so bad it is an ill token the end will not be very good You would here father vpoÌ„ me three things which I neuer imagined as they are by you collected Therefore to cleare the truth and sâ—op your mouth I will declare what my mind is and hath ben concerning them For the first your wordes are That euerie person in England holding your publique faith is no true Christian Touching this point I mind the estate of your people two waies The one concerning their severall persons considered a part from the constitution of your Church the other concerning their estate and standing in that constitution Concerning the former of these that is considering them apart from the constitution I acknowledge that in diuers of them there appeareth such knowledg and faith of the gospel with the frutes thereof as they may well be thought in regard of Gods election in Christ to be heires of saluation and in that respect to be true Christians God pardoning vnto them their standing vnder Antichrist which they doe not see or mind But withall I feare least many mo heretofore were pertakers of this grace then be now since your Antichristian estate and the vnlawfulnes to abide therein hath bin discouered Concerning the latter that is in respect of their estate and standing in that constitution of your Church I am perswaded whosoeuer so stand holding your publique faith and multitude of Antichristian abhominations withall they cannot by the word of God be iudged true Christians as touching their outward estate in that church of yours but stand all subiect to wrath God imputing this their sinne vnto them And that all therefore who will be assured of Gods mercie and saluation ought with speed to goe out of your Church it still remaining in Antichristian estate To make this matter more plaine take out of Israell an example in Abiiah the sonne of Ieroboam If you consider him as standing with the rest in that apostasie and Church-constitution of Israell he is subiect to like condemnation with them in that estate But if you consider him apart from it as there is found
His 1. Reply to the 7. Reason folloing The Papists forbidding of mariage and meats if they had done no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy and ceremonies simply Neither doe these things make vs the Protestants to be such These and many mo you haue in your first Reply besides an hundred the like in the second not only sounding to that sence but directly and necessarily implying it And whereas you have sometimes the contrary as I noted * His 1. Reply to the 4 Reason follovving els where that doth but so much the more shew your inconstancy and contradiction of your self Shall I therefore now turne vpon you your owne words and say O strange dealing vvithout all shame in the vievv of the vvorld to father on me this foule vntruth c. Yet I am glad M. Iacob the truth prevaileth so much with you nill ye will ye as you are driuen to confesse that this assertion is a foule vntruth and senceles errour For herevpon it followeth first that your Proposition is not generall and therefore your whole Argument faulty and to no purpose at al for the question in hand secondly that of necessity there should be some clause ānexed to your Proposition touching the Antichristian abhominations among you if you would haue your Reason good for the estate of your Churches But you account such addition would be idle and vaine I easily beleeue you are so minded But why I pray you thinke you so Is it because you did not at first mind it or because now you see it would discouer to euerie man the vanitie of your Reason Howsoeuer it must be expressed And if your self either know not how to doe it or be vnwilling I will show it Mark now therfore Hovv Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded Whatsoeuer is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluation that is sufficient to make a company so gathered together to be a true Church of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist But the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly * Book of Articles published Anno 1562 professed and practised by Lavv in England is sufficient to make a particular man a true Christian and in state of saluatiō And the publik Assemblyes of England are in their estate companyes so gathered together Therefore it is also sufficient to make the publik Assemblyes of England true Churches of Christ though they retaine vvithall in their constitution the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist Or thus rather If the vvhole doctrine as it is publikly professed and practised by Lavv in England be sufficient to make a particular man standing member of that Church which retaineth the Hierarchy Leiturgy and confusion of Antichrist yet notvvithstanding to be a true Christian and in state of saluation as tovvching his estate and standing in that Church then is it also sufficient to make a company so gathered together and consequently the Church of England to be a true Church of Christ as towching the estate and constitution thereof But the former say you is true Therefore also the latter But the former say I is false Therefore also the latter Thus M. Iacob should your Argument be framed in right forme of reasoning for the estate of your Church and for the question between vs. Which now being done who is so simple as cannot plainely see the falshood of both the Propositions in the former and of the Assumption in the latter and consequently the vanity of your Reason every way If you still hold otherwise then must we still call vpon you for proof Bare saying will not serue we looke for due proof Mind further that now as your case standeth you are to approve the estate of your Church and the members thereof not only as they retaine the abominatiōs of Antichrist but as they withstand also the contrary truth and way of Christ which hath ben a long time made known and offered vnto them Otherwise he that hath but half an eye may see you defēd not the present estate of the Churches of England as the title of your book pretendeth In that you say wheresoeuer there are any things added destroying faith there whatsoeuer els seemeth sufficient in deed is not sufficient to make a true Christian you are againe mistaken There may be in the constitution of a Church things added destroying faith and yet so much truth be held and taught as to some particular men cōsidered apart from the constitution is sufficient to make them true Christians and in state of saluation the other being not imputed vnto them by the Lord. Thus I doubt not hath * Thus haue I spoken to you Mr Iacob many tymes Yet see hovv you haue novv dealt vvith me contrary to your knovvledg God saued some in the most popish Churches and many mo in yours from time to time Yet notwithstanding this doth not iustifie the estate either of their or of your Church neither doth it warrant any to abide therein But it argueth partly the riches of Gods mercie partlie the greatnes of his power who as at first he brought light out of darknes so in the worst times and euen in the darke kingdome of Antichrist saueth them that are his But of this besides that already spoken there will be occasion to speak more ‡ In the handling of the second Exception and 7. Reason folloing hereafter Your bad dealing about the first rest of the general points aboue named I haue declared before In deed your self may tremble to think thereon as on your Antichristian estate also in that Church You I say M. Iacob who cannot be ignorant of both these things howsoever you haue advisedly if not also vvilfully now written otherwise Mind therefore if you haue not here took heauen and earth to record against your self and whether this be not desperate madnes yea or no. But let vs proceed to your Replies vpon the Exceptions and Reasons heretofore alledged against your Assumption And let the Reader mind without partialitie as before God which of vs haue the truth and accordingly let him walke in all good conscience before God and men Chap. 4. The first Exception against the Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson FIrst consider the 19. Article of that doctrine and Book which by your self is alleadged for your defence and see by it if your profession and practize be not contrary one to an other Yea see if it be not manifest euen by it that you haue not a true visible Church of Christ The words of the Article are these Artic. 19. The visible Church of Christ is a Congregation of faithfull men in the which the pure vvord of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same These are your owne words and
you for these things is such as damnatory sentence may be threatned against them take you heed Mr. Iacob that God being it not vpon your head for one if you proceed in those sinnes still as hitherto you have done And let your disciple D. B. that Apostate take heed of it for another and likewise all the rest whomsoever you meane to be of those some you speak of It is the word of God that doth and must judge both now and in the great day Ioh. 12.48 Psal 149.9 2 Chrō 19.6 1 Cor. 5.3.4.12.13 The judgement that is done according vnto it by whomsoever it be is not mans but the Lords Your hearts and consciences I leave them to the Lord. It is your constitution and practise I speake of and of the sundrie meanes of knowledge and conviction in these things vouchsafed to you which the Martyrs in former times had not This you knew I doubt not though you would not see it because you know not how to aunswer it And thus the two differences between you and the Martyrs excepted against do both of them stand firme against you But why say you nothing at all to the other differences which in the same places I noted aswell as these Can you not bring so much as colour of exception against them Why then do you not yeeld vnto them Or will you that we take your silence for a consent Also why aunswer you not that obiection when I said ‡ Pag. 67. you might thus justify the callings and estate of the Monks Fryers c. and the having of spirituall communion vvith them because divers such have ben Martyrs giving their lives for the truth they saw vvho never doubted of the lawfulnes of their callngs and estate Do you therefore hold their offices and functiōs to be lawfull Or will you deny that this hath ben the case of such If you do then I alledge for proof Eckhardus a Dominican fryer Thomas Rhedonensis a Carmelite frier Henry Voes Iohn Esch William Neel Doctor Cacalla Augustine friers Ioannes Mollius a gray frier Ierome Savonarola Dominicus Siluester c. All of them being Fryers and Monks yet Martyrs of Iesus faithfullie witnessing the truth which they saw even vnto death Act. Monum 5. edit Pag. 387. 613. 672. 799. 829. 850. 854. 4. For the fourth point it is so very playne and pregnant as you can say nothing against it but refer vs to that you have said before which I have shewed to be nothing at all to the purpose So it remaineth firme against you And so also do the reasons mentioned 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Against which you neither have said nor can say any thing to serve your turne Say but yourself and speak plainly whether that general clause Towch no vncleane thing include not both your and all other abominations of Antichrist breaking the second commandement One of your selves “ Triall of Subscriptiō Pag. 7. alledging this scripture but against the ceremonies reteined in your Church reasoneth thus from it and ānexeth that note in the Margent which I have here set downe withall †2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17 This forbiddeth the vvhole corruptiō in religiō of heathen or Antichrist although principally their false doctrin What communion saith he hath the light of the word vvith the darknes of mans inventions What concord hath Christ our Saviour vvith Belial the Antichrist of Rome And vvhere greement hath the Temple of God vvhich is our selves vvith Idols of humane traditions Wherefore ♣ Rev. 18.2.3.4 come out of Babylon that is the confusion or confused vvorship and gouernment of Rome and tovvch no vncleane thing These are his words Now tell me I pray you is this Scripture and reason strong against your ceremonies And is it not much more against your confusion Leiturgie Hierarchie c. which are meerly the inventions of man even of Antichrist that man of sinne Or will you be like the Papists also in this to limit the bounds of the Scripture that it may be applied no further nor othervvise but as pleaseth you That the place of Ezechiel is directly of the breach of the Second commaundement Ezec. 43.8 is as cleare as the Sunne at noone day Beside the reasons which I alledged before those so many clauses My thres holds theirs My posts and theirs Me and them Myne holy Name with their abominations these I say so many concurring in this one verse make it without all question that he speaketh directly of ioyning their inventions with Gods ordinances in the worship of the true God Which is the direct breach of the Second not of the First cōmandement The First is directlie towching Gods inward worship as to have love trust feare him onely as God c. The Secōd is directlie of outward worship For Images and bowing downe to them “ Exo. 20.4.5 there mentioned are outward things If this distinction be not observed the first and second cōmaundement will be confounded as the Papists whom you follow would have it But if it be observed it confoundeth both you and them M. Iacob and all your vayne pretences By this also it is evident that the Idolatrie of Ahas Manasses Amon c. whereof you speak was directlie against the Second cōmādement Ahaz to give an instance in one of the grossest is said to have * 2 Chrō 28 23. sacrificed to the Gods of Damascus because he †2 King 16 10-15 made an altar like the altar of Damascus though yet notwithstanding he offered thereon to the true God both such offerings and at such seasons as the Lord had appointed His sinne then was against the Second commandement directlie in that he made and vsed another altar then God had prescribed But your ignorance of the Scripture-phrase deceiveth you For when you read that Ahaz Manasses or others sacrificed to the Gods of the Nations you vnderstand that they worshipped some other then the true God against the First cōmandement whereas the Scripture meaneth they worshipped the true God after the … er as those nations served their Idols and so brake the Second cōmaundement You may see it in that example of Ahaz before and most plainly in Deut. 12.30.31.32 And likewise if Naaman worshipping God had bowed downe before the Idoll in Rimmons Temple but in heart honored the God of Israell he had broken the Secōd not the First cōmandement and might be said to have worshipped the Idoll Rimmon 2 King 5.17.18 The reason of all these is because God accounteth them to be served whose ordinances are observed and himself not to be had as God when his true vvorship is not had Now so must we esteeme things and so the Scripture speaketh not as men judge but as God esteemeth Minde this well Mr. Iacob for your worship of Antichrist But of these things more hereafter when wee come to speak of the third Scripture 2 King 17. in the sixt Reason following 2 King 17.
so alledged against the Papists Vnto which you can say nothing Besides also the Iewes being a true Church and yet their worship vnto many of them by their traditions proving to be in vaine it followeth more strongly against the false Church and her abominations which are far mo and of another nature then those in Iewry Thus should you apply it to your selves Lastlie minde that now you are driven to saie you never denied but this Scripture condemneth your corruptions So by your owne confessiō your worship of God is in vayne No part of it is free from your corruptions Let such then ioine with you therein as have pleasure in vaine worship 2 Thes 2.12 vvith Exod. 20.5 Christ never communicated in any such but rebuked it and all them that worshipped God in such maner even this Scripture being witnes Therefore it maketh notablie against you and for vs as is before observed 1. In your Replie to the first point of my Aunsvver next following you can not saie a word against it Yet will you not yeeld Still you would have me graunt that which I denie and you should prove viz That in your estate you are a true Church c. The contrarie whereof I have proved ‡ Pag. 3. 12. 16. 22. 33. 59. 60. 61. 63. c. before Therefore is it not yet in question 2. To the second you yeeld with shame enough though your follie be so great as you see it not For first you neither do nor can aunswer but against your selves to that which I asked concerning Christ and his Apostles vvhether they communicated in those traditions of the Ieevves or not If by your silence you consent that they did not as in deed the truth is then by their exāple are we also bound not to partake in yours If you saie they did then you both blaspheme Christ making him a sinner and give the holy Ghost the lie who in †Mat. 15.2.13.14 this verie Chapter testifies the contrarie Thus whatsoever you shall aunswer it maketh against you excedinglie And because you answer not it importeth that you yeeld So also doth that most plainlie which here you speak for your self You saie you seek not to iustify your partaking in your traditions c. Yes Mr Iacob you seek it but you are ashamed to professe it Els why condemne you vs for not partaking therein I know you will say as is in the Preface of your book that your minde is we should partake with you in your lavvfull things not in your traditions But for shame leave this follie None can ioyne with any of your Churches or Ministerie but they must needs partake with your Antichristian traditions Shew the contrarie in any Minister or Church of the Land and we yeeld Otherwise what do you but yeeld The renouncing you speak of is in word not in work You renounce evill with your lippes but approve it in your deeds And thus is verified vpon you that which Christ out of the Prophet spake in the †Mat. 15.8 place aforesaid This people dravveth neare vnto me vvith their mouth and honoreth me vvith the lippes but their heart is far from me And where you speak of such as do in simplicity partake of your traditions to be true Christians nevertheles Albeit in your constitution they can not by the word of God so be counted Pag. 3. 7. 16. 33. 63. c. as hath ben proved yet I pray tell vs what then you think of those that partake with your traditions not of simplicity but as your self do that is knowing them to be against the Second Commaundement of Antichrist vaine vvorshipp never but nought c. 3. In the third point of my aunsvver I noted two differences between your case and the Iewes the first towching the Law it self the second towching the observation of it For the Lavv I shewed that the ordinance of God given by Moses even the written word being the Law of that Church it did not appoint but forbid those traditions Yours contrarilie For the observation I shewed that the traditions were not generallie observed of all the members of that Church as yours be Both these I proved by the Scripture Luk. 1 5-10 2.21 c. Mat. 5.17 8.4 15.2 Ioh. 10.34 Where marke in Iohn those words of Christ to the Iewes In your Law speaking of the written word Now vnto this so plaine evidence you aunswer nothing at all to the purpose For the former you seem at first to yeeld that these traditions were not commaunded by the Law of that Church But yet being so generally received and they rebuked who vsed them not you count it to be as good Which I denie Then you would prove these to be the Law of that Church because they are called †Mar. 7.5 the Traditions of the Elders But even by this appeareth that they were not the Law of that Church but a Tradition received from hand to hand from their forefathers Which therefore bound not anie neither were observed by all as it is with you Neither was their case then as the Iewes is now with their Thalmud or as the Turks with their Alcoran neither as the Papists or yours with the Canon Law If it had ben such then could they not have ben a true Church And to vnderstand this to be the ordinance of their present Governours as to serve your turne you could be content is altogeather without ground It is both against the common vse of the word Tradition here vrged and against the true meaning of the word Elders in this place Mat. 5 21.27.33 which plainelie appeareth by another word vsed in Mat. 5. in such sence as this is here and in stead thereof signifying Them of old tyme or the like For the latter that is the observation you would prove out of * Mar. 7.3 Mark that they were generally received If you meane they were received of very many but not of all you speak nothing against that which I said If you meane they were received of all among them as the words seem to sound then you misvnderstand and misalledge that Scripture I will shew it by a like speach vsed also by Mark in another place where he saith all the countrey of Iudea and they of Ierusalem came out to Iohn †Mar. 1.5 and vvere all baptised of him c. Now by the word All in this place he meaneth onely a great many and not everie one as the word might seem to import For that all were not baptised of him is evident both by “ Mat. 21.32 Luk. 7.30 other Scriptures and by this reason that if all Iudea and Ierusalem had ben baptized of him then had they all confessed their sinnes and become disciples Which all men know was far otherwise Likewise in this place although he saie All the Ievves because they were many yet even in the ‡ Mar. 7.2 next verse going before he saieth the
Devills Doth your Church hold them as things indifferent Or will not this prove a blasphemous opinion even in your owne judgement 4. Mynd withall how the Dispensations given by your Prelates for eating of flesh in tymes forbidden runne stil among you as they did and do among the Papists with this clause fana conscientia that is with a safe conscience and your Excommunications with this clause Ad salutem anioâ—e that is for the salvation of the soule Doth not this shew that your Churches hold not these things as you pretend but agree with the Papists therein Or hold you matters of conscience and salvation for things indifferent 5. Likewise for your Ministery and book of common prayer c. hold you them as matters indifferent or as necessarie for the service of God and salvation of your soules 6. And what say you to the blasphemy magik errors lyes in the Apocrypha books retained among you for the service of God Count you them also for indifferent things 6. Finally towching the Popish opinion of works whereof you speak know you not how they hold that their works merit not for the work sake but for Christs being dyed with his blood Yet notwithstanding this colour the point being well considered it doth highly dishonour Christ and derogate from his office of sole Mediation In like maner the Hierarchy c. that is the governement worship confusion and Ministery of Antichrist retained among you whatsoever you pretend for them yet being duly weighed do as towching your Church constitutioÌ„ abolish the governement and MediatioÌ„ of Christ except you could prove him to be Mediatour of another Testament then his owne Behold what your Indifferent opinioÌ„ will prove when it comes to be throughly scanned As you like it you may hold it still To end this point let the Reader note and not forget it how your self do here in playne termes confesse that your Hierarchy that is your Churches governement Ministery c. was never but nought This suites yll with the title of your book and gives small encouragement for any to serve God by such Ministery worship c. For Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. Pag. 40.41 I have cleared them before froÌ„ your hasty censure Now onely let the Reader observed how this is alway the foot of your song Mr Cranmer Ridley Latimer c. As if their errors were better warrant for you then Gods word for vs. CHAP. 10. The fourth Reason against M. Iacobs AssumptioÌ„ aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THe doctrines of faith conteined in that Book alledged would not make him a true Christian who holding them should also still execute or joyne vnto the Ministery of Mahomet that open Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ 2 Cor. 6.14 c. Therefore neither can they make him a true Christian that holding them yet doth still execute or joine vnto the Ministery and worship of the man of sinne the covert Antichrist and enemie of Iesus Christ H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 4. Reason THis your 4. ReasoÌ„ is Mahomets Ministery and Antichrists Ministery are both bad alike But the good doctrines of our booke of Articles cannot save a man that ioineth also to Mahomets Ministery Ergo the good doctrines of that booke cannot save a man that ioineth also to Antichrists Ministery which thing we in England doe I deny neither the Proposition nor Assumption And yet the Argument is too bad It is a fallacie of Equivocation as we call it Wee must therefore distinguish Mahomets Ministerie and Antichrists Ministerie have a doubtfull meaning If you meane the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in Mahomets or Antichrists assemblies that is in the Turkish or Popish Churches Then I graunt your whole Argument is * Both are nought alike as touching abolâ—shing vs from Christ. true But that wee doe so in England which comes in the CoÌ„clusioÌ„ Or that any ChristiaÌ„ amongst vs thinketh so That I vtterly deny And thus indeed that Scripture alleadged 2 Cor. 6.14 is rightly vnderstood But if you meane by Ministerie the outward manner of calling to the Ministerie and some outward ceremonies vsed by Mahomet or the Pope Then I flatly and absolutly deny your Assumption and your Scripture is answered before in the First Reason For I affirme and it is manifest That such errors being ioined with the good doctrines of that our Book doe not destroy faith and true Christianitie as before was shewed in the Second Exception Fr. Iohnson his Answer to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 4. Reason Here Mr Iacob the light of the trueth doeth so dazell your eyes as you freely confesse you cannot deny any whit of the Reason And yet forsooth the Argument is too bad But why so There is you say an Equivocation in it and therefore you will distinguish I answer There is no equivocation at all in the words they are all plaine to him that hath a single eye and will vnderstand the trueth Therefore your distinction here is idle and frivolous Yet let vs see between what things you do distinguish It is between the whole function and exercise of publique worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies and between the outward maner of calling to their Ministery and the outward ceremonies vsed amongest them An absurd distinction towching the matter in hand For first who knoweth not that these latter are of the very same nature with the former Are not their outward callings and ceremonies false Antichristian and accursed before God aswell as the rest of their woship and service Or hath God in his worde giuen any commaundement more for these then for the other Secondly who seeth not that the Argument here is not of whatsoever thing vsed among the Turkes and Papists but of the Ministerie and worship which they have devised and executed As in particular of the publique offices of Ministery reteined among them of their maner of calling and entrance into them of their administration of them of their stinted imposed Liturgie their ecclesiasticall governement Canons proceedings c. All which in the Church of England are taken out of * Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3.4.7.8.9.10.11.12 that golden cup of abominations wherewith Antichrist that man of sinne hath made the Nations of the earth to be drunken As may appeare by comparing their Pontificals Canons and constitutions togeather If you will needes be otherwise minded then prove the particulars aforesaide by the Testament of Christ And marke here that you graunt the doctrine of faith conteined in your booke of Articles cannot make him a true Christian who holding them doth withall receive and ioyne vnto the publike worship performed in the Turkish or Popish Assemblies This you say you graunt as most true WherevpoÌ„ it followeth even by your owne confession 1. That such things may be ioined with the doctrines of faith receiued among you as in such estate you cannot be deemed true Christians or true Churches Neither the truths which you
phrase of speach to the signe which in deed is peculiar to the thing signified And this maner of speaking is vsuall throughout the Scripture both towching the true and false worship of God The Altar which Iacob set vp at Shechem he called the mighty God of Israell Genes 33.20 Gedeon called the Altar he made the Lord of peace Iudg. 6.24 The Arke is called the Lords strength and beauty Psal 78.61 The bread in the Lords supper is called the body of Christ Mat. 26.26 And manie the like speaches in the Scripture are everie where to be found Now as these in the true so the other before in false worship of God are sacramentall speaches When it is said then that †2 King 17.29.30.31 every nation made their Gods c. the meaning is they made Idols or Images for the representatiō of God by them to be put in mind of him and so to worship him Mind further that the Scripture relating the sinne of the Samaritans vseth the verie same words and like phrase of speach as is in the second commaundement It saith they made them Gods that is Images as it is expounded 2 King 17 29.33.41 vers 41. and served them Which are the words also of that commaundement Exod. 20.4.5 And note that whereas the first commaundement is directlie of Gods inward worship viz to love trust feare him c. The Second is of outward as the verie termes of making of Images of bowing to them c. which are things outward do specifie This being noted it giveth light for the true vnderstanding of both these commaundements which will otherwise be cōfounded Pag. 80. as I have shewed ‡ els where and proveth the sinne of the Samaritans directlie to have ben the breach of the Second not of the First Now let vs come to the proofs alleadged in the former answer and to your Replie here made against them 1. By that of Ezra it is evidēt †they sacrificed to the Lord God of Israell Ezra 4.1.2 The words of the Text are so plaine as cannot be withstood Neither is it anie thing to the questiō in hand that in hypocrisy they conspired against the building of the Temple and so against the true worship of God When your self or anie other amōg you do by counterfet hypocrisy and false brags set your selves against the synceritie and observation of Christs ordinauce and so against the true worship of God will it follow that therefore your false worship is to some other then the true God and not against the Second but the First commaundement 2 That the cōtention betwen the Iewes and Samaritās was not whether the true God onely was to be worshipped but in what place maner is so cleare by Ioh 4. as it must needs be a bold assertion of yours to denie it Doth not the woman of Samaria acknowledge Christ to be ‡ Ioh. 4.19 a Prohet of the true God whom she worshipped Is not the question and speach between them of this onelie †ver 20.21.24 Where and How God must be worshipped Now if the controversy had ben of the Person whether the true God onelie or Idols also were to be worshipped to what purpose had it ben to contend about the Place when as yet there had not ben agreement about the Person Why did not she taking him to be a Prophet inquire aswell Whom as Where we are to worship Nay why did she not aske this first and speciallie To what end was it for her to alledge the example of * Ibid. vers 12.20 Iacob and the Fathers for the place if they had not worshipped the same God that Iacob and the Fathers did Or was it ever heard that any people but such as worshipped the true God onely did know and look for the Messiah to come spoken of by the Prophets as the Samaritans did Ioh. 4.25.28.29.30.38.39.40.41.42 Likewise in †Ibid. vers 21-24 Christs speach and instruction of that Samaritane woman how plaine is it that the controversie was as before I have noted What commaundement I pray you doth the place and maner of Gods worship properlie concerne Is it not the Second Or would Christ think you instruct her so carefullie about the Second and omit the controversies of the First being the most waightie if therein they had differed The case is so cleare as if you have your eies in your head you can not but see it Therefore will I spend no more tyme to confute you in it Your misvnderstāding and misalledging of 2 King 17. I have also discovered here a little before 3. Your owne confession I did and will still alledge vntill you do as plainelie revoke it as you did at first affirme it I denie not but you brought the whole Reason in as our Obiection Yet that point of the Israelites worship vnder Ieroboam and other clauses of the Obiection any may see you set them downe as being true also in your owne judgement Otherwise how said you that it is fitter then all our Reasons Pag. 105. Or how did you acknowledge that their worship resembled the ordinances at Ierusalem And to what end els did you confirme it by those two Scriptures 1 King 12.32 Amos. 4.4 A shame then it is and great shame for you Mr Iacob at first to confesse the truth and now when you see what followes vpon it against you to draw back againe But to cleare the point from all your double dealing I aske Is it not true that the Israelites vnder Ieroboam at Dan and Bethel served not Pagan Idols but the true God after their owne devices c. Is it not true also that the Samaritās coming after them so feared and served the Lord as those Israelites before had done If you denie either of these see here the proof of both from the word of God Of the first towching the Israelites in these Scriptures Hos 2.16 Amos. 5.21.22.23 8.14 1 Kin. 12.27 21.29 Of the latter towching the Samaritans in these 2. King 17.28.32.33.41 Ezra 4.1 2. Ioh. 4.19.20.25.26.29.30 Both these then being true who seeth not that their sinne was directlie against the Second commaundement as yours also is by your owne confession Pag. 70. 71. But you say Ieroboams seemeth far grosser and filthier then the worst is with you You say it seemeth You say not it was But be it that it were so what would it availe for the question in hand Doth such answer anie whit help the Papists when they alledg it Your self do here a little after in this Replie jnsinuate as if the Idolatry of Ieroboam was not at first so ill Pag. 110 as afterward Achabs was and Manasses c. If it were so was this anie defence of Ieroboams estate seeing he notwithstāding stood in transgression of the Second commaundement though the other might exceed him in grossenes or otherwise Now for the comparison between yours and Ieroboams you tell vs he *
the Papists might thus plead as you do And that so much the more as they bring more show of Scripture Pag. 129. then you More show I say as before I noted For otherwise I know both they and you pervert the Scriptures to mainteine your errors I wish it be not to your destruction Consider these things Mr Iacob and returne a sounder aunswer or els learne to lay your hand on your mouth To that which you vrge next concerning my self I have aunswered alreadie Pag. 41. But that which I vrged next to you viz your forsaking the true ministery Pag. 108. worship and order appointed by Christ as the Israelites also did and your retayning a false Ministery vvorship and confusion of Antichrist c. This you passe by and aunswer not a word vnto it Then where I alledged that you vvere not behind but rather exceeded the Israelites in persecuting vnto bands banishment and death such as beare vvitnes to the truth of Christ c. To this you aunswer It is a toy Thus first you make ‡ a mocke of sinne and so carry your self as if you had ben Chapleine to Boner Bancroft Gardiner Whitgift or some such Caiphas Pro. 14.9 By this also you testifie that not onelie the Prelates and Formalists as some would beare vs in hand but even the Reformists among whom you reckon your self have your hands in our blood consenting vnto and approving that which is done against vs. Further you do thus become like the Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites vpoÌ„ whom Christ pronounced a most heavy Wo Mat. 23 29-35 for that whiles they builded the tombes of the Prophets slaine by their Fathers themselves did kill and persecute the witnesses of Christ sent vnto them And yet they blessed themselues in their evill even as you do Behold to what height of impiety you are come and in how fearfull estate you remaine But yet you comfort your selves with two things 1. that this can not make you worse then the Iewes in Christs tyme who for all that they persecuted yet were not wholy fallen from God O most wofull estate Though yet your case be worse then theirs inasmuch as their Church was in a true constitution yours in a false Mat. 21 â—3 c. Act. 2. 13. 17. chap. 19.8.9 And therefore they to be admonished which was done by Christ and his Apostles afore anie were required to separate and save themselves from that froward generation Whereas the rule and commaundement concerning your and all false Churches is forthwith to go out froÌ„ such and to witnes the truth against them Rev. 18.4.5.6 12.17 14.12 2 Cor. 6.17.18 Phil. 1.28.29 Hos 4.15 Amos. 5.5.6 Micah 2.10 And thus far your estate is worse then theirs so as both other account is to be made of it and other maner of walking to be vsed toward it But suppose you were both alike in this yet most miserable is your case when for your persecution you are driven to plead the example of the Iewes 1 Thes 2.15.16 Mat. 23.33.34.35 †who both killed the Lord Iesus and their owne Prophets and did by persecution drive away the Church and Apostles of Christ and brought vpon themselves all the righteous bloodshed vpoÌ„ the earth froÌ„ the beginning of the world and had the kingdome of God taken from them neither could escape the damnation of hell wrath being come vpon them to the vtmost as both Christ and his Apostles testifyed against them How wofull then and miserable is your case though it be no vvorse then theirs 2. The second thing is that you say we suffer more then we need if we would but acknowledge the grace of God with you so far as it is that therefore it is not Christs crosse in that regard but our owne that we beare 1. But what if the Iewes or Papists did or should say thus much vnto them they persecuted Were it of anie moment Nay did not Boner and other of the Papists often so speak to the Martyrs 2. What think you also of the suffrings of Mr Vdall Mr Cartvvright Mr Fenner Mr Dearing Mr Merbury c. Did they suffer more then they needed Or diâ— they not acknowledge the grace of God with you so far as it is Or was it not Christs crosse but their owne that they bare 3. Tell vs next what grace of God is with you which we acknowledge not so far as it is Hold you anie truth of doctrine which we hold not Or reject you anie errors which we reject not Approve you anie way of righteousnes which we approve not Or refuse you anie evill which we refuse not If thus we do not convince vs by the Scripture †2 Tim. 3.16.17 which is profitable to these vses that the man of God may be absolute being fully furnished to everie good work But if we do thus as by the grace of God we do then your speach against vs is vntrue and your persecution of vs vnjust 4. Shew withall in what particulars we suffer more then we need 5. And prove that the things we suffer for are not good but evill Being carefull alwaie that your proofs be from the word of God which onelie is the rule of truth 6. Finallie we testify in all good conscience before God and men that we suffer onelie for bearing witnes to the truth of Christ against the abominations of Antithrist And this the Confession of our faith alreadie published in English Dutch and Latin doth and will testifie to the ages present and to come As also our other writings Examinations Aunswers Conferences c. For which you have alreadie condemned and put to death divers of vs and others you have imprisonned impoverished banished c. It is then Christ his crosse which we beare through his grace And you are become fighters against God and persecuters of Christ in his members Yea even this writing of yours proclaimeth that you are now alreadie become drunken with the blood of the Saints and with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus Els could you never have pleaded so wickedlie nor blessed your selves so foolishlie as you do But we will leave you and our cause vnto God who judgeth righteous judgement and will give every man according to his works When he maketh inquisitioÌ„ for blood he will remember all that you have done vnto vs and will not forget the complaint of the poore Therefore will wee wayte on him and say no more but with Zechariah when he was put to death ‡ 2 Chron. 24.22 The Lord look vpon it and requier it In the last place you vrge againe that there is contrariety betvveen my speach here and in the second Reason before 1 But I pray you tell me Saith not the Scripture both the things that are spoken in these two places Read we not for the one that Christ accounted the Iewes not the Samaritans the true worshippers of God Ioh 4.22 c.
abhominations of the earth Rev. 17.5 For now I would know of you who are so deep a Clerke how Antichrists Church and Religion should iustly be accounted a mystery of iniquitie and truely be said to speak Lies in hypocrisy also prively to bring in Damnable heresies and to haue a Shevv of godlines if they did absolutly and vvholy departe from the faith and not onelie frō some points thereof But over and above all it seemeth by this reason that not onelie the Apostles were mistaken in giuing vs markes how to know false teachers and false religions But also Christ himselfe when he said †Mat. 7.15 Bevvare of false Prophetes vvhich come to you in sheepes clothing but invvardly are ravening vvolves And againe †Mat. 24.23.24 If any shall say vnto you Loe here is Christ or there beleeve it not For there shall arise false Christs and false Prophets and shall shevv great signes and vvonders so that if it vvere possible they should deceive the very elect Now if they should totally depart frō the faith what sheepes clothing I pray you should they have to come in Or how should either themselves be said to come in the name of Christ affirming their Religion to be Christs and shewing signes and wonders to draw men therevnto Or the elect be in such vnspeakable danger to be deceived by them This might suffice to shew the falsehood and impietie of your answer But yet I will note a few things mo therein First it being graunted that the popish forbidding of Mariage and meats so they were no worse doth not make them depaxters frō the faith totally yet tell vs if holding never so manie truthes besides and yet forbidding these they could by the word of God truely be said in that estate to hold the faith of Christ and to be true Christians 1 Tim. 4.1.3 If they could not as the Apostle * testifieth then is your answer in this respect also nothing to the purpose but against your self both for the popish forbidding of meats and mariage and for the English Hierarchy and other abominations among you received from the Papistes which vnder colour of this answer you would defend Next see in Bales Votaries and in the Acts and monuments c. what abominable filthines the forbidding of mariage and what fowle superstition the forbidding of meats hath wrought in the kingdome of Antichrist And tell me then what man fearing God durst once open his mouth for such divelish doctrines and estate Againe where you say The Papists fall from Christ in other poincts besides the aforsaid Namely 1. The Papall supremacie 2. The sacrifice of the Masse 3. Iustification by vvorkes vvhich England novv is far from Tell vs first whether in this sence the Papists can for these be said to depart from the faith totally If they can not what weight is there in this for defēce of your estate that the Papists could not alledge for themselves viz that in these poincts they depart from the faith but not absolutly and wholy Secondly tell vs whether there are no other poincts but these three in the Papists Religion which make them in their estate to be departers from the faith and consequentlie false Christians and false Churches If there be as you can not deny of what weight then is your answer to defend the present constitution of your people and assemblies seeing there are divers other things besides these that do and may cause that you can not be deemed true Christians or true Churches in that estate Many “ Servetus Sabellius Arius the Anabaptistes c. heretikes heretofore have and at this day do reject these three aforsaid Are they therefore in their estate to be accounted true Chrestians or true Churches Thirdly your manner of reasoning heer for your defence is as if the Adulterers to justify their course of life should alledge thus We are 1 no Blasphemers 2 no Persecutors 3 no Murtherers as such and such are therefore we depart not from the way of life but our estate and course of life is good and such as may be continued in Yet the Scripture sayth * Iam. 2.10.11 whosoever shall keep the vvhole Lavv and yet faileth in one poinct is guiltie of all For he that sayed Thou shalt not commit adulterie saied also Thou shalt not kill Novv though thou doest no adultery yet if thou killest thou art a transgressour of the Lavv and contrariwise So that whatsoever sinnes the Adulterer be far from yet as Salomon saith cōmitting adultery vvith a vvoman he fayleth in heart and destroyeth his owne soule Prov. 6.32 The same is the case of all spirituall Adulterers who whatsoever sinnes they be farre from yet in the worship of God runne a vvhoring after their owne inventions embracing the bosomes of strange vvomen and drinking on their cup of fornications Num. 15.39 vvith Prov. 5.20 and Rev. 17.4 Ier. 4.18 Fourthly shew vs sufficient warrant from the Scriptures why setting these three aside the Hierarchy and other popish abominations received among you can not be judged to make you in such estate departers from the faith and therefore false Christians and false Churches whatsoever truthes you hold besides Num. 16.1.2 c. Corah Dathan Abiram and their partakers were far from the Abominations of the Heathen they held also the poincts of faith that Moses and Aaron held differing onelie from them and departing onely from the faith in a matter concerning the Priesthood whereof notwithstanding they * vers 3. shewed their reasons why they were so perswaded Yet will you not deny I trow but they departed from the faith and were in this estate neither to be accounted true Israelits nor their assemblies true Churches with which communion might be kept If you should the Scripture is witnesse against you Num. 16.26 Now compare case with case and tyme with tyme and you shall find the estate of your people and Assemblies to be far more grievous As hath ben shewed alreadie in the Second Exception before and in other Treatises to which we have yet received no answer viz The ansvver to Maister A.H. The 9. Reasons concerning not hearing the Ministers of these assemblies of England To conclude this poinct if your Abominations in England were farre fewer then they are yet so long as you reteine that poisonfull leaven of your Hierarchy and vvorship we must tell you as the Scripture saith and experience teacheth That †2. King 4.39.40 a little poison bringeth death vnto the whole pot of potage A 1 Cor. 5.6 litle leaven leaveneth the vvhole lump And Eccl. 10.1 a fevv dead flyes cause the oynctemēt of the Apothecarie to stinke and putrifie Although indeed your abominations are not a few but swarme in abundance among you Some whereof see before Pag. 63. c. In the next place fearing belike that the evidence of “ 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 this Scripture could not by these shiftes of yours be avoided
the true faith of Christ these Scriptures prove Deut. 18.18.19 Heb. 3 1-6 Mat. 6.24 Luk. 10.27 Rom. 6.16 Col. 2.8.19.20.21.22.23 2 Thes 1.8 2.3.12 Ioh. 3.36 Ier. 4.18 That your Churches coÌ„stitution is such I have proved in another treatise both by the Scriptures and your owne writings viz In a treatise of the Ministery of the Church of England Pag 30-35 4. Your Church forbiddeth Mariage Meats Of which the Apostle saith expressely it is a departing from the faith of Christ and therefore Fundamentall See 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 Col. 2 8-23 And before Pag. 137. 140. 5. Your Church persisteth and persecuteth such as refuse to worship the beast and his image or to receyve his marke in the forhead or hand That this bringeth damnation and is Fundamentall against the coÌ„mandements of God and faith of Iesus see Rev. 14.9.10.11.12 17 1-6 18.2.3.4.5 2. Thes 2 3-12 Exod. 20 4.5 That it is your case appeareth by your Hierarchy Leitourgy confusion of people Courts Canons Dispensations Licences Suspensions Excommunications c. practised mainteined and yeelded vnto by your Church Ministers and people framed also according to the image and fashion of the Romish Apostasy Which your selves confesse to be that Beast spoken of in the Revelation 6. Together with these remember also the particulars which I noted before concerning this point Pag. 22. 31. 60. 63. 73. 94. 103. 114. 122. 126. 129. 133. In which places you may mynd divers the like with further proof thereof And so for the present let this suffice till we see what your next Reply can bring against it The Scriptures alledged against you what man of conscience knowing your estate durst ever open his mouth to say they were abused or misapplyed When the Corinthians did but neglect to excommunicate one wicked man from among them the Apostle fitlie alledged this saying A little leaven leaveneth the whole lumpe 1 Cor. 5.6 How is it then abused when we applie it to your estate which swarmeth with so manie knowen wicked men and yet hath not the power of Christ to cast out any one from among you That I say nothing of the other infinite corruptions among you towched before Pag. 63. c. But in deed if these Scriptures be in anie respect not fitlie applyed it is in this that your corruptioÌ„s are so many and so abominable as you had need of far sharper corasives and other more deadfull sentences of Scripture to be applyed to your estate Such as these be If any man worship the Beast and his image and receive his marke in his forhead or on his hand the same shall drink of the vvine of the vvrath of God c. Rev. 14.9.10.11 They that receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved God vvill send them strong delusion to beleeve lyes that they may be damned c. 2 Thes 2.10 11.12 He that obeyeth not the Sonne shall not see life but the vvrath of God abideth on him Ioh. 3.36 To them that are contentious and disobey the truth and obey vnrighteousnes shal be indignation and vvrath tribulation and anguish vpon the soule of every man that doth evill Rom. 2.8.9 Those myne ennemyes saith Christ vvhich vvould not that I should reigne over them bring hither and slay them before me Luk. 19.27 I protest to every man that heareth the vvords of this book if any man shall adde vnto these things God shall adde vnto him the plagues that are writteÌ„ in this book And if any man shall diminish of the words of the book of this prophecy God shall take away his part out of the book of life c. Rev. 22.18.19 And marke these clauses well If any man vvorship If any man adde If any man take away The soule of every man I protest to every man c. None is excepted Let everie man therefore mynd your estate betymes to deliver his soule from the fierce wrath of God Your estate I say wherein there are so manie things added and so manie things taken away from the ordinance of Christ And those also marks of the Beast even a multitude of abominations derived from Antichrist that sonne of perdition And will you yet perswade men that this is but some taint of evill in a Christian Can you put no difference between the sinnes and infirmityes of Christians walking in the faith and the impietyes of Antichrist and doctrines of Divels making departure from it Know you not that even †Luk. 22.24 Rom. 7.23 Gal. 2.11.12.13.14 Iam. 3 2. 1 Ioh. 1.8.10 the Apostles themselves were subiect to the former and yet were wholy free from the latter Or are you growen so presumptuous against the holy Ghost as what it directlie teacheth to be * 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Rev. 17.4.5 2 Thes 2.3 doctrines of Divels fornications and abominations of the vvhore of Babylon Apostasy of Antichrist the man of sinne that you dare say is but as the taint of evill in a ChristiaÌ„ Belike you would have vs see this very Prophecy fulfilled in your self viz that you are led vvith the Spirit of error and have your conscience seared vvith an hote iron 1 Tim. 4.1.2 Otherwise how could you thus lewdly speak lyes in hypocrisy if you were guided by the spirit of truth and made any conscience of that you say But yet further to shew that you have gotten the very habit of falshood you shame not to call that a vvicked sclaunder which all the world may see is most true For proof whereof compare but your Replyes here with the Iesuites Notes vpon 1 Tim. 4. Thus they write Rhem. Teâ—â— on 1 Tim. 4. first in their marginall notes We see plainly by these vvords such abstinence onely to be disallovved as condemneth the creatures of God to be naught by nature and creation Then in their Annotations following they labour to prove that here the Apostle speaketh of the Manichees Encratites Marcionists c. Towching whom they say They thought that Mariage vvas of Sathan and coÌ„demned divers creatures as things by nature and creation polluted and abominable And then they adde Lo these vvere the Hereticks and their heresyes vvhich S. Paul here prophecyeth of that forbid mariage and meats as you have heard c. These are their owne words And thus they labour in vaine as D. Fulk in his aunswer tels them to post over the crime from themselves to the old Hereticks vvho vvith as good reason might post it of from one to another the Manichees to the Tacianists and the Tacianists to the Manichees c. Now let the Reader well mynd your Replyes in this place and compare them with this dealing of the Papists and then let him judge how you are sclandered with a matter of truth when I sayd you runne into the Papists tents and fight vvith their vveapons to shift of the evidence of this Scripture against you by posting it over from your selves to the Hereticks of old Martion Tatianus c. But
thus in deed you do still shew your brasen forhead and seared conscience Towching Corah Dathan Abiram c. besides that I have aunswered to your Reply in the Second exception Pag. 53. I have also purposely in many particulars compared their case and yours together in the Sixt Reason Pag. 130. Which if you can you may refute in your next or by silence give place to the truth Where I proved by sundry other Scriptures compared with this to Timothy Pag. 139. 140 that the Romish harlot and her children are here properly and specially deciphered you aunswer not one word vnto it Nay you are so turned out of all your shifts as even now when you would shift it of to Martion and Tacianus you giue more evidēce that it resteth on your owne heads rather then on theirs And this I prove by comparing together your saying here with the Apostles there You say here that Martion and Tatianus did Fundamentally fall from the faith because they simply forbad those good ordinances of God Mariage and meats even against the light of conscience and nature presumptuously quenching the instinct thereof Now if this were so Mr Iacob then by your owne saying they did not speak falsehood in hypocrisy but in open and presumptuous blasphemie Whereas the Apostle noteth such expresselie as speak lyes in hypocrisy 1 Tim. 4.2.3 And such in very deed I proved your case and the Papists to be in my former aunswer Pag. 137. c. Against which you can bring nothing at all Yet you blush not to say you passe by my puestions and demaunds about the Papists and their errors as more vayne then pertinent Whereas in deed the truth is that the questions and reasons do so nearly concerne both the Papists and your selves as you dare not medle with them Otherwise if you could you should at least not onely have said but some way proued them to be vaine But this labour it may be your reserve to your next Reply If so then examine them in particular and shew the vanity of them from point to point Els know they are so pertinēt as here againe you are brought to a playne Non plus And because in my former aunswer I did but brieflie towch that point of your speaking lyes through hypocrisy I will for further evidence of this Scripture against you mention here some few particulars mo 1. It cannot be denyed but you worship God by a Service book taken out of the Popes portuis and by many other the inventions af men Yet you pretend that you worship God in spirit and truth according to his word A lye in hypocrisy 2. Your Churches Ministers and people stand subiect to other Archbishops and Lordbishops then Iesus Christ and to their Courts Canons Excommunications c. Yet you beare men in hād that you receive Christ only as Lord and King of the Church and obey his Lawes and ordinances Another lye in hypocrisy 3. Your Hierarchy and whole Ministery from the highest Archbishop to the lowest Priest is Antichristian in you offices entrance administration maintenance Yet who knoweth not that in all these you perswade the world you are the Ministers of Iesus Christ Falsehood in hypocrisy 4. You still banish and imprison vs because we separate from your Antichristian estate and endevour to keep the faith and ordinance of Christ Yet you give out that we suffer more then we need that we are iustlie punished as ennemyes to the State as Schismaticks Hereticks seditious c. Another lye in hypocrisy 5. Finallie even the truths which you teach and professe what are they els in your estate but the sheeps clothing of your wolvish Hierarchy and Priesthood by meanes whereof you deceive and devoure the more Lo here a tast of your speaking lyes in hypocrisy and if you will also of your consciences burnt vvith an hote yron Besides these in your Church note also in your self in particular how even here you do sclaunder me and yet pretend that it is I which sclaunder you Neither sufficeth it you in this one place to do it once as I shewed before Pag. 149. But here againe you will needs double it that we might the better note this propertie in your self which yet you shame not falsely to lay vpon me And because you will not seem to want colour for it you pretend this that I say the words of your first Reply imported such onely to depart from the faith as fall from it totally To depart from the faith I say so as in that estate they cannot by the word of God be estemed true Christians Reason 7. Pag. 135. For this was the point which I proved and you denyed Now towching this matter the case is so verie plaine as I neither need nor will do anie more for your conviction therein but set downe your owne words as they were at first and then with a note concerning your dealing synce leave the iudgement thereof to the Reader when he shall have compared together the words of your Reply and of my Aunsvver Neither of which you love to keep vnto For your words then thus it was When against your Church I had proved by the Apostles testimonie that forasmuch as all such depart from the faith as forbid Mariage and Meats therefore also your Church so doth vvhich not only forbiddeth these things the true Ministery vvorship of God vvithall but also commaundeth a false c. You did then answer thus word for word The Popish forbidding of Mariage and of Meats if they vvere no vvorse doth not make them departers from the faith totally No more could their Hierarchy ceremonies simply Neither do they make vs the Protestans to be such The Papists fall from Christ in other points namely The Papall supremacy c. These were your words then The other clauses which now you have annexed in the Margent and Reply it self though they help you no whit neither yet were they added synce you receyved my Answer as I noted before Pag. 141. Let the Reader mynd this And withall these two things 1. That now you note in the margent both “ here and in the Eight Reason following Pag. 136. that you think the vvord fundamentally fitter to be here vsed then the word totally And why fitter I pray you but because this word totally implyeth that directlie which I inferred therevpon in my Answer Pag. 136. c. 2. That whereas you did at first annexe a clause concerning the Apostles meaning that in these points they depart from the faith not absolutly and vvholy this also is so far from helping you as it maketh altogether against you howsoever you would perswade otherwise in this your latter Reply both in the beginning and end thereof Pag. 141. 142. Which will yet more fully appeare even to the most simple whensoever you shall answer the particular questiōs and obiectiōs which I propounded in my former Answer concerning the Papists and your selves For which
a true Reason it maketh Maister Cranmer c. denyers of the faith and not true Christians also For maintenance whereof you have here not one poore vvord at all Tovvching that you say we cannot deny but graunt that we departe from and deny the faith in our Ministery I have told you hovv in my ansvver to your 7. Reason Also see my Replyes to your 2. Exception Fr. Iohnson his Aunswer to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply to the 8. Reason NOw that all your shifts fayle you come with Ifs and And 's If the Apostle meane this and If he meane that c. As if the Apostles * words were not playne 1 Tim. 5.8 so as the meaning may easily be discerned of anie that is not wilfullie blynd Read and mynd in all such cases and Scriptures that which is written Prov. 8.9 with Act. 28.26.27 But you say the Apostle may very well meane both such as neglect their houshold against convenient Christian providence and such as do it against the light of conscience and natures instinct If the first then you deny the Assumption that is the Apostles owne saying And thus againe you give the holy Ghost the lye If the latter then you deny the Proposition And then you must prove that thus they do it For who knoweth not that such will not for this case any more then you for yours confesse that they do it against light of conscience c. Nay will they not say as stiflie as you that this concerneth not them And moreover is not that also which is light in one mans conscience often darke in another mans by one meanes or other See it in an example One of your professors in London runneth to all your Sermons and Lectures from place to place throughout the City every day and every houre By this meanes he neglecteth his familie You tell him he doth it against light of conscience and natures instinct He denyes it and saith he doth it not so but as being perswaded in his conscience that he must first seek the kingdome of God and that then all outward things shal be cast to him and his Herevpon in a blynd zeale he doth as aforesaid Now tell me Is not this man notwithstanding within compasse of the Apostles rule here spoken of Yet will he stand against it for his case as stiffe as you for yours yea and alledge for himself more colour and show of Reason then you do or can for your Hierarchy c. So then both the Proposition and Assumption stand firme against you and therefore also the whole Reason Now here againe being loth belike to give them any rest you call for Mr Cranmer c. As if they were your Pages to wayte at your heeles on every call and to serve your turne at every need whether they will or not Never were poore men in all the world I think made such a stale But they serve you accordingly They let you commaund and go without For every where you commaund their names and yet alway go without their fellowship As I have shewed before in particular Pag. 40. 41. Towching your graunt let the Reader note here againe that you yeeld you depart from and deny the faith in your Ministery c. You say you have before told vs how But what you have said before is there aunswered and taken away And besides for vs it is sufficient that it is done Look you vnto it how you do it It may be some of you do it of ignorance some of knowledge against the light of your owne consciēces some for feare of men some for love of the world some of contention or vaine glory some for their profit pleasure ease honour quyetnes or the like Thus I deny not but in the maner of doing there may be among you in these respects a divers measure and proportion of sinne But this concerneth not vs but your selves to look vnto and that greatlie Chap. 15. The Ninth Reason against Mr Iacobs Assumption aforesaid Fr. Iohnson THey which do otherwise teach and condiscend not to the wholsome words of our Lord Iesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godlines all such by the rule of the Apostle are to be separated frō and therefore cannot in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 But such is the case of all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their ministery worship and Church constitution As appeareth both by the severall points of their false doctrine * Points of false doctrine els where noted and by the proofes “ Pag. 61. 63. 135. c. here before alledged out of their owne Canons Articles Iniunctions c. Therefore all the Ministers and people of the Church of England in their Ministery worship and Church constitution are by the rule of the Apostle to be separated from neither can in that case by the word of God be deemed true Christians H. Iacob his 1. Reply to the 9. Reason THis your last Reason is Separate from them that teach otherwise then the truth 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 We holding those Articles do teach diverse things in the Hierarchy c. that be otherwise then is truth Therefore we must be separated from and consequently we are no true Christians This is a fallacy also Separate from such Ergo separate wholy See my 1. and 2. Reply afore to the third Exception also the Aunswer to the two last Reasons of all the 7. and 8. We graunt therefore so farr forth as we hold otherwise then trueth so farr separate from vs but not any farther at all not wholy or absolutly And so the Apostle here meaneth Wherefore briefly Because you prove vs not wholy to deny the trueth nor fundamentally nor obstinatly perversly and desperatly any part thereof like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from which he did not from all other Ievves Act. 13.14 16.3 21.23.24.26 3.1 Therefore you ought not vvholy to separate from vs Neither to condemne vs vvholy as abolished from Christ no more then Maister Cranmer Ridley were vvith their Congregations in King Edwards tyme. And thus our Assumption in the beginning standeth firme The doctrine in the booke of Articles is sufficient to make a true Christian. Cōclusion The contrary vvhereof is such a Paradox as hath not ben heard of till this day All reformed Churches in Europe doe and have alvvayes held othervvise Themselves †M. Barrow Mr. Penry Mr. Iohnson heretofore have acknovvledged and professed it The holy Martyrs that lived in King Edvvards dayes and dyed in Queene Maries dayes must be othervvise cut of from Christ vvho vvere true Christians by vertue of this doctrine and the practise thereof or verily not at all But now it is vvonder vvhat extreame passion hath driven them to this denyall Surely they see that it conuinceth flatly as indeed it doth their peremptory separation And therefore rather then they vvould
seem to have erred in so mayne a poinct vve cannot but thinke that meere desperatnes hath driven them to it Neverthelesse all this vve leave to the Lord vvith the iudgement thereof vvho hath the hearts of all men in his hand not only to search the secrets but also to turne and dispose them even as it pleaseth him Fr. Iohnson his Aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 1. Reply to the 9. Reason TO this Reason you answer It is a fallacy Separate from such Ergo separate vvholy But how shew you any fallacy therein You bid vs see your Replyes to the third Exception and tvvo last Reasons of all Well we have seen them and finde nothing there but against your self as hath ben shewed So this Reason and the rest stand still vnanswered and strong against you And that we may not doubt but your self also see it howsoever you seem to plead the contrary before therefore now you graunt it and so yeeld the cause both in expresse words and by not defending the points of false doctrine wherewith you were charged neyther your Canons Articles Iniunctions c. In expresse words when you say you graunt that so farr foorth as you hold othervvise then trueth so far vve may and ought to separate from you Loe here what the evidence of the truth against which you have strugled so long hath now at length drawen from you The trueth is mighty and prevaileth But you adde that vve must not separate from you any further then as before not wholy or absolutly and so say you the Apostle “ here meaneth 1 Tim. 6.3 ◠First of all let vs know what your self meane hereby If you meane that we must not for your other defection forsake the trueths which you hold I aunswer that we doe it not and this your self know well ynough And in this sence your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles You say your selves you have separated from the Papists yet you neither can nor will say that you have forsaken the truthes which the Papists hold As that there is a God that there be three persons in the Godhead that Iesus Christ is the Saviour of the world that God made heaven and earth that there shal be a resurrection of the iust and vniust c. But if you meane that because of the truthes which you professe therefore we should not separate from you then first you contradict your self having graunted that we must separate from you so farr foorth as you hold otherwise then trueth Secondlie you condemne your owne practise in your separation from the Papists notwithstanding the truthes they professe Thirdlie in this sence also your meaning comes nothing neare the Apostles meaning Thus therefore is evident both that there is no fallacy in the Reason but that it is playne and forceable against you And that you have directlie in expresse words given vs the cause See the particulars before Pag. 63 c. and acknowledged our separation to be lawfull from your * Ministery worship Assemblies c. because in these you hold otherwise then truth And as in expresse words you yeeld it so in deed you shew it in that you leave without all defēce as vnlawfull and to be separated from your Ministery worship Church-governement Doctrine Canons Articles Iniunctions c. mentioned both here and more particularlie in the First and Second Reasons before which thing we wish the Reader well to observe And because we are fallen againe into mention of your false doctrine to the end that the Reader may yet more see the deceitfulnes of your dealing and insufficiencie of all your answers therefore it shall not be yrkesome to set downe here some such poincts of false doctrine as heretofore have ben obiected against you They are as followeth 1. That though the open notorious obstinate offenders be partakers of the Sacraments yet neyther the Sacramentes False doctrine in the Church of England and in the defenders thereof nor the people that ioine with them are defiled therby Which doctrine is contrary to the trueth of God in these Scriptures 1 Cor. 10.17 Hag. 2.14.15 1 Cor. 5.6 10.28 2 Cor. 6.14.15.16.17.18 Gal. 5.9 Mat. 18.8.9.15.16.17.18.19 Exod. 12.43 Levit. 15.4.5.6.7.31 11.24 13.45.46 19.7 Num. 5.2.3 19.21.22 Iosua 7.11.12 c. Ezra 6.21.22 Ier. 3.1 2. That the planting or reforming of Christs Church must tarrie for the Civill Magistrate and may not otherwise be brought in by the word and spirit of God in the testimony of his servantes except they have authoritie from earthlie Princes Which doctrine is against the Kinglie power of Christ and these scriptures Mat. 28.18.20 Actes 3.23 1 Cor. 1.27 Psal 2.6.9.10.12 Esa 9.6.7 Zach. 4.6 6.12.13 Dan. 2.44 7.27 9.25 Mich. 5.7 1 Cor. 14.27 with 1 Thes 4.8 Phil. 2.6.12 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15 Rev. 1.5 12.11 14.12 17.14 19.16 20.4 3. That the true visible Church of Christ is not a separated company of righteous men and women from the Idolaters and open wicked of the world but may consist of all sortes of people good and bad Which doctrine is cōtrary to the paterne of Christs Church throughout all the scriptures Gen. 4.26 vvith 6.2 Exod. 4.22.23 Levit. 10.10 20.24.25.26 Psal 24.3.4 Ezra 6.21 2. Chron. 11.13.16 Nehem. 10.28 Eze. 22.26 with 44.23 Zeph. 3.4 Mat. 3.10.12 Act. 2.40.41.42 19.9 Rom. 12.1.8 2 Cor. 6.17.18 1 Pet. 2.9.10 Rev. 14.9.12 18.4 21.27 and 22.14.15 c. 4. To mainteine this error of their confused order and mixture of all sortes of persons togeather they pervert the Parable of the tares Mat. 13.24 teaching that all are the Church and that they may be retained and communicated withall in the Church Which doctrine is against the trueth of the scriptures yea against our Saviours owne interpretation in the 38. verse who teacheth that by the field is meant the world in which his Church is militant here on earth And as therein there is the good seed the righteous the Children of the Kingdome so there are also tares hypocrites the children of the wicked who as they are often espied in this life by the righteous servauntes of God and being discovered are here cast out of the Church in the Name and by the power of Iesus Christ so shall they in that great day be perfectlie severed from the godly by the Angels howsoever here in the meane tyme making profession of the truth and having a show of godlines they be suffred to grow together with the good seed and be with the vpright of heart reputed mēbers of the Church on earth Note also that the Church because it is the Temple House kingdome of God on earth wherein he dwelleth by his spirit and ruleth by the scepter of his word as also the gate of heaven through which he bringeth vs into his kingdome of glory after this life is therefore by Christ in this place called the Kingdome of heaven though yet it
prosperitie in the world yet the godly notwithstanding must learne neither to fret at them nor to faint in themselues but alway to walk faithfullie in the truth and to waite patientlie on the Lord looking for the great harvest of the world At which tyme God will for ever free his people from them all both casting the wicked into a furnace of vnquenchable fyer and making the righteous to shine as the sunne in the kingdome of their Father Mat. 13 37-43 compared with ver 47-50 Rev. 2 20.-26 7 14-17 10.7 11 15-19 14 14-20 17-22 chap. and with the other Scriptures noted before Pag. 158. 159. 173. The second is that besides the false doctrines mentioned before Pag. 157. 158. 159. 160. your Church hath also manie mo Some whereof I have noted in * another Treatise A treatise of the Minist of Engl. pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. to which I refer you for them So as if your list and leysure will serve in your next Reply you may let vs have your defence of them also Or els provide Mr Iacob that you chaunge the Title of your book and call it not anie longer A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND MINISTERY OF ENGLAND Now to proceed there followeth next the comparison between you and the Iewes from whom Paul separated Act. 19.9 Act. 19. To which you can not replie a word to anie one thing I aunswered Onelie you bring some new exceptions but not anie of them all worth a rush You might aswell except that Paul was an Apostle and a Iew we not that the people he dealt withall were in Asia you in Europe they at Ephesus you at London c. Such pretences as they are verie common among you so are they most absurd and frivolous not worthy the hearing or anie refutation at all Onelie note that the very Papists themselves may likewise alledge against anie that witnes the truth vnto them yea and do they not dailie thus pretend as you do viz that they be infinitely many mo then Paul had there to do withall 2. That Paul was better able to convince them c. then any such are the whole Popish Church 3. That there be many learned among them which have many probable and seeming reasons c. Where you say there be some of you that have published some reasons for the Prelacy against vs and are vnanswered it is most false Name but one Reason if you can to which we have not given aunswer to the stopping of all your mouths But in deed Mr Iacob you and your fellowes have let the * the Prelates and their proctours insult over you Bancroft Bilson Sutcliff c. with book vpon book and yet aunswer not a word You that ere while cryed out so earnestlie against dumbe dogs are now become dumbe your selves not moving the tounge against anie that writeth for the Hierarchy and leitourgy of Antichrist retained among you But to leave this to your selves to be better mynded hereafter tell me now if it were anie thing to the purpose though that you say here were true By your owne confession the Reasons which are published against vs are but probable and seeming not true and vndoubted And this also seeming so but to you not to vs. What matter then though they were never aunswered by vs Where you aske What if these speak evill of that which we hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme We aske againe Do not the Papists also say so vnto you Yea and did not the Iewes think you say so vnto Paul Why then are you so partiall against vs But for vs it skils not what you or they think of our cause vnles you speak according to the Law and testimony of God which is far from you Let the Reader also note here the maner of your speach You say that which we hold for truth they hold to be errors schisme They say you as speaking of others not of your self You belike do not so hold it as they do but are perswaded it is truth and not error Why then do you not obey and practise it Why are you become our ennemy for bearing witnes vnto it Why are you so partiall against vs in it Towching the estate of the Iewes Church I shewed three reasons why the Apostles neither did nor might wholy separate from them at first Against which you are not able to open your mouth Pag. 161. Petitio principii whereof you speak is the summe of all your Replies Shew otherwise if you can Do you not everie where beg and no where prove that you are separated from the world set in the way of Christ free from the defection of Antichrist c. So your self are guiltie of that wherewith you charge me falslie all that you say being nothing els but to beg the question and deny the Conclusion As for your short writing about the cōparisō of your Ministery with Mariage I did answer it * above three yeares since But you have not yet replied againe neither I think will in hast In the yeare 1596. When you first acquainted me with the purpose of publishing these things you know besides other things then spoken of I did in particular desier you to publish that aunswer of myne with the rest Therefore you have done me the greater wrong both in leaving it vnprinted and much more in giving out that I have not aunswered you these whole three yeares together and vpward But I perceive you will have your book sutable one part with another and therefore you will end as you ‡ began that is Pag. 5. with lies and vntruths Of that which you annexe of the Iewes Church in Christs tyme and after and of separation from them and communion with them I have alreadie spoken sufficientlie Pag. 161. Neither can you with anie Reason denie or stand against anie thing I have there said as I noted before Tell vs yet I pray you when and how that full experience of obstinate and malitious resistance of the truth whereof you speak may be had and discerned in anie either Ministers or people For your selves you cannot deny but this is your case that you resist and refuse the truth many times and sundrie wayes witnessed vnto you that you rayle and speake evill both of it and of vs that professe it that you persist in the errors and defection of Antichrist that you bereave vs of our lives libertie goods countrie c. And all these because we will not runne with you to the same excesse of impietie Now seing this is the case as your self I think will not denie of your Prelates and manie other of your Priests and people and seing all the rest of you stand with them in one bodie and estate of a Church cleaving vnto them in the same way worship Ministerie c. therefore even in this behalfe can we not possiblie separate from some of you but we must needs
that I might keep thy word Psal 119.57.59.60.101 Let him that readeth consider AN ANSWER TO MAISTER H. IACOB HIS TREATISE Concerning the PRIESTES of the Church of England Made by the PRAELATES Accepted and ioyned vnto by the people Which he termeth A PASTORALL CALLING By Francis Iohnson an exile for the testimony of IESVS Put your selves in aray againâ—t Babel round about all ye that bend the bow shooe as her spare no arrowes for she hath sinned against the Lord. Ier. 50.14 They shall not take of thee a stone for a corner nor a stone for foundation but thou shal s be a perpetuall desolation saith the Lord. Ier. 51.26 1600. Mr IACOB his Argument by which he would prove the Priests made by Prelates to be the Pastors ordeined by Christ Taken froÌ„ a comparison of Mariage Which he falsely faith is gathered out of our owne confessions Together with the Answer to it to his Reply thereabout CHAP. 1. The Argument of his Comparison as it is now propounded is this AS a couple of ignorant people not contracting but meaning to marry yet thinking that vnlesse a Priest marry them their mariage is nothing whereas in deed their publique accepting each of other maketh the mariage Now being married though “ “ As themselves bold vnlavvfully by a Priest yet their mariage is true lawfull notwithstanding EVen so a Christian people meaning to have a sufficient man to their Pastor yet thinking that vnlesse a Prelate doe make him he is no Pastor at all neither can be theirs Notwithstanding he being made a Pastor though “ “ As they also do acknowledge vnlawfully by the Prelate yet by rheir mutuall accepting and ioyning together he is now verely a Pastor yea their Pastor true and lawfull H. IACOB Fran. Iohnson his Aunswer THe Reader is to know that Mr Iacob did at first propound this coÌ„parison far otherwise Which synce being aunswered so as he could not defend it againe he hath now chaunged and propounded it with some other termes then before trying belike if he can any way help himself or his cause Now although both his first and last be alike in this that neither of them are of any moment yet because the former aunswer here following was made vnto the coÌ„parisoÌ„ as it was first propounded which Mr Iacob concealeth and to the end the Reader may see what chaunge he hath made therein I will here also set it downe as himself did propound it at the first Which was thus As a couple of ignorant persons that are contracted together do think that vnles the Priest marry them Mr H. Iacob his Comparison as it was first propoÌ„ded aunswered their mariage is nothing whereas in truth the contract maketh the marriage yet being married though vnlawfully by a Priest their marringe is notwithstanding lawfull So the ignorant people that have made choyse of a Minister do think vnles the Bishop make him a Minister he is no Minister whereas in deed their choise made him a Minister yet being made Minister though vnlawfully by a Bishop his Ministery is notwithstanding lawfull Thus did Mr Iacob at first make his comparison In which and the change thereof let the Reader observe and Mr Iacob answer these things following 1. That before in the Proposition or first part of the comparison he spake of persons contracted together now of persons not contracted 2. That in the Reddition or latter part he spake of ignorant people now of Christians Before of ignorant people that had made choise of a Minister now of ChristiaÌ„ people inteÌ„ding to choose or meaning to have a Pastor 3. That he spake before of any man generallie for a Minister now particularlie of a sufficient man for a Pastor Then of a supposed lawfull Ministery received afore the Prelates do vnlawfully make them now of this vnlawfull one received afore the other Then of the peoples choyse first had now of their mutuall accepting and ioining together afterward 4. That thus chaunging the termes of the Comparison his aunswer therefore to the ‡ Reasons first brought against it * The ReasoÌ„s were 7. hereafter set down is even in this respect indirect and insufficient besides that it is otherwise most weak and friuolous Of which more hereafter 5. Where now he speaketh of sufficient men for Pastors set him tell vs plainlie what he thinketh of their Dumbe Ministers and of the rest among them othewise vnmeet and insufficient viz Whether the Dumbe Ministers and Formalists have not the same calling of the Prelates that the other have 6. Whether they have not like and many of them greater acceptance of the people then those he speaketh of have 7. Whether they therefore being thus ordeined of the Prelates and accepted of the people are by the word of God true and lawfull Pastors to whose guyding men may commit their soules and ioine to their publik Ministery 8. Whether their Churches as they stand have power to choose to themselves their Ministers so as being chosen by them they are by the Lawes of their Church their lawfull Ministers 9. How it is possible that any should hold mariage by a Priest vnlawfull and yet think that vnles they be so married their mariage is nothing And againe to hold the Prelates making of Ministers to be vnlawfull and yet to think that vnles the Prelates do so make them they are no Pastors at all neither can be theirs What straunge contradictions be here Is it possible that these things can stand together Or can they ever be reconciled vnlesse Mr Iacob think their people be so mad as to hold that no lawfull Mariage or Ministerie can be had but by vnlawfull meanes And consequently that whosoever will marry or become Ministers must needs sinne against God Yea so as they know and hold it before they do it and therefore also sinne against their owne conscience Pag. 186. For thus much do “ his Marginall notes sayd togeather with the wordes of his Comparison necessarilie import And what a divelish doctrine also is this 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 10. Whether the Offices and functions of the Prelates he speaketh of be not amoÌ„g them as the Apostle fortold exalted above and opposed against the holy things and offices of the Lord Iesus Yea Whether those very words of the Apostle 2 Thes 2.4 thus describing the Man of sinne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is set against life vp above all that is called God or “ Or appertaining to diuine vvorship As the same word is vsed Act. 17.23 holy do not most directly as it were with the finger point out that Antichristian Prelacy And here to speake of it by the way let the Reader mynd how wonderfully God hath disposed that they should by themselves in their Statutes speaches writings be called by this name and title of Prelates which is the very English of the Greek word vsed by the Apostle when he describeth Antichrist The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
and Ministery it is no vnmeet thing that you vse the weapons of Antichrist Which are chiefly two falsehood and violence Of the former whereof your book is full from end to end speaking lyes through hypocrisy And with the latter your Church which you would defend aboundeth as your violent courses against the truth will alway testify to your face howsoever you shame not to plead evē for this also For which see before Pag. 112.133.134 If you write agayne be better advised Rev. 14. 18. chap. Psal 84. Ier. 50. and 51. Chap. Or rather learne to lay your hand on your mouth and plead the cyuse of Antichrist no more But follow the Lambe whithersoever he goeth And give your self no rest vntill you appeare before God in Sion Forsake Babel Let Ierusalem come vp on your heart and help you to build the walles thereof though it be in a strait and troublous tyme. And this which I speak vnto you by the word of God I wish to be mynded of all that feare God and love the Lord Iesus He that hath eares to heare let him heare Math. 13.9 A Table of some particular things conteyned in this Book ANtichristian corruptions yet had in the Church of England Pag. 63. c. Antichrists of two sorts pag. 95. Of the Apocrypha books pag. 22. 60. The Chaldean and Spirituall Babylon compared together pag. 99. c. Of the Beasts mark Preface Section 3. Pag. 163. 189 Blasphemy in the professiō Ministratiō of the Church of Eng. p. 22. 60. 188. 189. Of the auncyent and late Bishops pag. 129. 162. 183. 203. Of the Name Brownists pag. 2. A true visible Church described pag. 14. 196. The true Church hath but one Lord-bishop the Lord Iesus Christ p. 163. 189. It is Christs ordinance that there be true offices of Ministery and a lawfull administration and to a faithfull people pag. 16. 19. 39. The Worship and Ministery of the Church of England is against the Prophecy Priesthood and Kingdome of Christ pag. 33. c. Of the Church of England Pag. 1. 3. 11. 27. 122 126. 161. c. Her confusion pag. 16. 103. 122. 200. Conviction pag. 42. 53. 78. 108. 130. c. Book of Common prayer pag. 27. 33. 63. 86. 96. 120. c. Dispensatiōs and Licences Pag. 65. 73. False doctrines pag. 122. 157. c. Fundamentall errors pag. 22. 114. 147. Excommunication and Absolution Pag. 33. 65. Hierarchy and Ministery Pag. 2. 23. 27. 63. 120. 122. 188. c. Holy dayes pag. 33. 64. Idol-temples P. 65. 121. 126. Indifferent opinion of the Hierarchy pag. 94. 120. 121. Persecution pag. 66 108. 112. 133. 177. 178. 197. Profession pag. 21. 60. 120. 171. Speaking lyes in hypocrisy pag. 150. 151. Will-worship and superstition pag. 27. 33. 82. 86. 87. The faith of the Church of England abolisheth the Second commandement and perfection of the Scriptures pag. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth all outward governement of the Church to be vnwritren and vncertayne pag. 28. 38. The Church of Engl. holdeth the inventions of Antichrist to be Christs ordinances if the Magistrate so please pag. 61. 69. 72. The Preaching Sacraments Prayer c. in the Church of Engl. appoynted by mens precepts pag. 82. 86 87. None can ioyne with any Chutch or Ministery of Engl. but they must needs partake with their Antichristian abominations pag. 88. 170. The estate of the Ministers and Church of Engl. compared with Corahs c. pag. 32. 53. 130. 138. Difference to be put between true Churches having corruptions and false Churches making show of Religion pag. 92. 133. 161. 195. Things verifyed of the members of a true Church may be applyed to a false Church and yet not iustify their estate pag. 83. Of the Ethiopian Churches pag. 94. Of the error of Christs descension into Hell pag. 115. 116. Of the Foundation in Christian Religion pag. 46. 51. Some dying in fundamentall errors yet saved pag. 44. 45. 545 Some holding no fundamentall errors yet condemned pag. 48. 146. The falsest Churches and greatest Hereticks hold much truth pag. 47. 104. 106. 113. 136. 137. The Heathens acknowledging and worshipping of the true God p. 123. 124. The Papists bring more show of Scripture for their grossest heresyes then Mr Iacob or any other do for the Hierarchy c. pag. 129. A notable false doctrine of Mr Iacobs wherein it seemeth he is alone p. 172. Three speciall things to be noted in Mr Iacobs Replyes pag. 9. How Mr Iacobs Argument should be propounded pag. 12. Popish shifts vsed by Mr Iacob pag. 26. 30. 32. 128. 136. c. Idolatry and false worship of two sorts pag. 67. 80. Visible Idols in the Church and worship of England pag. 120. Of the Iewes Church Preface Section 4. 5. pag. 83. 84. 89. 195. 197. Of Imposition of hands pag. 208. 210. Of the forbidding of Mariage and Meats pag. 73. 129. 135. 137. 140. 143. 147. Of the Martyrs pag. 8. 29. 40. 44. 54. 67. 79. 182. How the Ministers of England are made ordered pag. 188. 189. The word and Sacraments administred and received in the Church of Engl. in and from a false Ministery pag. 16 64. The Oath ex officio pag. 63. Of such as live and dy Papists c. pag. 146 Of the word Prelate pag. 188. Seven Questions yet vnanswered pag. 164. Separation from the Church of England graunted in expresse words by them selves pag. 156. 157. 169. The Sacraments administred in the Church of England with many corruptions pag. 15. 17. 25. 33. 64. Of Sacramentall speaches pag. 117. 118. Of the Samaritans pag. 104. c. The Parable of the Tares pag. 158. 173. Testimonyes of the Prelates themselves against the Church of Engl. p. 16. 200. Testimonyes of the Reformists against it p. 16. 27. 39. 79. 86. 103. 129. 176. 200. Testimoyes of the Reformed Churches against it pag. 17. 176. Testimonyes of the Martyrs and of former tymes against it pag. 162. 163. 177. 180. 182. 183. The Testimonyes alledged out of Scripture for defence of the Church of England are also against it Preface Section 3. 4. 5. 6. pag. 51. 52. 195. Of Tithes and maintenance of the Ministery pag. 209. 210. The Word of God onely is to be our rule and light of our feet pag. 22. 30. 34. 203. The word and ordinances of Christ as playne for vs now as was for the Iewes vnder the Law Yea more playne pag. 128. The obiections of Discōtinuance of Antiquity of Ambiguity in expounding the word c. answered pag. 128. 129. How the Lord abhorreth in his worship the mixture of mans inventions with his word and ordinances pag. 61. 101. 209. The doctrine and worship of Divels pag. 121. 122. The Lotd accounteth them to be made and worshipped as Gods whose ordinances are observed though it be for his worship pag. 80. 117. 122. Princes and Magistrates ought to abolish all false worship Ministeryes and to mainteyne the true which God hath prescribed in his word p. 199. Though they do not yet ought all the people of God to forsake the false and cleave vnto the true Preface Section 4. 6. 7. pag. 43. 46. 51. 101. 148. 158. 163. 170. 180. 184. 196. c. ERRATA PAg. 6. lin 9. read thus the Assumption And note downe in the Margent Pag. 86. and 87. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is after a sort or in part Pag. 183. Mr Tindals testimony there alledged is in his works printed together pag. 176. in the Book called The obedience of a Christian man Pag. 197. lin 41. sinne as Pag. 200. lin 38. starting hole Pag. 204. lin 9. that they FINIS