Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	ancient_a	church_n	true_a	2,421	5	5.1957	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A90523	A defence of church-government, exercised in presbyteriall, classicall, & synodall assemblies; according to the practise of the reformed churches: touching I. The power of a particular eldership, against those that plead for a meere popular government, specially Mr Ainsvvorth in his Animadversion to Mr Clyft. &c. II. The authority of classes and synods, against the patrons of independencie: answering in this poynt Mr Davenport his Apologeticall reply, &c. and Mr Canne his Churches plea, &c, sent forth first by W. Best, and afterwards for this part of it, under the title of Syons prerogative royall. By Iohn Paget, late able and faithfull pastour of the Reformed English Church in Amsterdam. Hereunto is prefixed an advertisement to the Parliament, wherein are inserted some animadversions on the Cheshire Remonstrance against Presbytery: by T.P.	Paget, John, d. 1640.; Paget, Thomas, d. 1660.	1641 (1641)	Wing P166; Thomason E117_1; ESTC R16734	348,418	298

certaine as it is certaine that he which by force repelleth force is armed with publick authority He distinguisheth their jurisdiction in respect of the causes judged by them and repeats this their authority againe in the (e) N. 28. next animadversion And though these two kindes of government Civill and Ecclesiasticall doe use a different manner of compulsion he sayth (f) N. 29. Nihil refert nos de rei substantia agimus coactionem uterque habet sed hic spiritualem ille temporalem c. It skilleth not we intreat of the substance of the matter both of them have a coactive power or a compulsion but the one spirituall the other temporall c. A most evident assertion of Synodall jurisdiction and that they are not to direct onely by way of counsell but to correct also by way of censure To these I might adde many other testimonies of Iunius but these evidences already cited may be sufficient to shew that he was not of this strange opinion touching the independency of Churches and that Mr Daven therefore hath abused his Readers and sought to blinde their eyes when for the credit of his cause he would have it thought that Iunius was of his minde while he professeth that he doth fully agree with him SECT X. His pretence of agreement with Dr Whitaker examined M R Dav. to colour his opinion as if it were no singular conceit of Mr Iacob and some few others makes mention of the Centuriatours as if they were of the same minde yet he alledgeth not their words to prove the same But instead of others he chooseth out Dr Whitaker as if he had bene a favourer of this opinion which it is likely that he never heard of and sayth (g) Apol. reply p. 237. 238. Whit. de Cōci quest 5. Argum. To these I may adde those who have handled the controversies concerning the necessity and authority of Councills amongst whom I will instance in Dr Whitaker who speaking of the fullnes of that delegated power which Christ hath given to the Church not to the Pope which he applyeth to the Keyes in binding and loosing shutting and opening retaining and remitting finnes sayth that this power belongeth primarily principally and essentially to the Church but to the severall Bishops onely accidentally secundarily and lesse principally and explaineth himself by a rule in Philosophy which is that when any power is in two in one necessarily essentially in another contingently and accidentally it is more principally in him in whom it is necessarily and essentially then in him whose it is onely contingently and accidentally As the heat is more principally in the fire then in the water because it is in the water by reason of the fire So sayth he seeing this jurisdiction and fullnes of power is given to the Church necessarily and primarily but to the Pope onely secundarily and by the Church it is manifest that it is more in the Church then in the Pope What that learned wrighter sayth of the Churches power in comparison with the Pope holds in all other parallell instances ANSVV. First had Mr Dav. repeated this Argument of D. Whitaker fully and justly as it is set downe by himself then might the Reader have seen therein a plaine evident testimony for the authority of Synods but divers things being omitted in the beginning middle and end of it thereby the trueth is obscured and hidden from his Readers In the beginning of it D. Whitaker propounds it thus If the fullnes of power be in the Church not in the Pope then it is evident that it hath more authority then the Pope but the first is true therefore the second also Now by the Church in this place he meaneth the Generall Synod or Councell as appeares by the title of this Question noted in the beginning of it viz. (h) DeConcil Qu. 5. c. 1. with c. 3. Arg. 5. Whether the Synod be above the Pope and if he had not so meant it this his Argument had bene beside the Question And therefore while D. Whitaker here directly concludeth a fullnes of power in Synods and as he further calles it in this same place that highest authority and jurisdiction which Christ hath left unto his Church it is manifest hereby that he did not hold them to be onely for counsell admonition and so was farre from limiting all Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction unto a particular Congregation In the middle in the confirmation of this Argument D. Whit. saith For if all this power were in the Pope or in any one man principally and essentially then he dying it should perish and so the Church should altogether loose it But it is not lost though the Pope dye a thousand times but it remaineth with the Church without which the Pope though living could have no part of this authority Now to argue on this manner against the authority we asscribe unto Synods by comparing them with particular Churches as he doth against the Pope compared with Synods would be inconsequent unequall and no parallel instance because the title of the Church is no where given unto the Pope or unto any one person as it is unto an assembly of Ministers Governours or Deputies of Churches met together in the name of Christ in Synods because though we asscribe unto Synods some jurisdiction yet we doe not say that all power is in them originally and so to be derived unto others as is sayd of the Pope and consequently because there is no such danger that the power of the Church should be lost and perish by the death of such as are members of the Synod as might be by the death of the Pope if all power were primarily and essentially in him alone And therefore it is a vaine assertion of Mr Dav. touching this argument of D. Whit. viz What that learned wrighter sayth of the Churches power in comparison with the Pope holds in all other parallell instances In the end of this Argument prosequuted by D. Whitak he concludeth thus Wherefore seeing it is certaine that this power is given unto the Church primarily and not unto the Pope but secondarily and by accident and seeing the Church is represented in the Synod it is of necessity that the Synod must be above the Pope And thus most evidently he grants unto the Synod as being a representative Church a power jurisdiction above the Pope a power which consists in binding and loosing shutting opening retaining and remitting of sinnes as himself here explaines it and so is directly contrary to them which allow no more unto Synods but counsell and admonition Why did Mr Davenp omit and refuse to name the Synod which D. Whit. so expressely mentioneth applying yeelding unto the Synod that power which he there pleades for Secondly as for that similitude of fire and water though it be granted that heat is more principally in the fire then in the water because it is in the water by reason of the

Authors more in number then those he hath specifyed and not inferiour for learning and piety unto some of those that he hath named all which in their severall writings Common places Commentaries and other Treatises have in like manner as the former described the use the necessity and the authority of Synods not onely for counsell but for judgement and decision of controversies divers of them alledging not onely examples of ancient Churches but the holy Scriptures also for the warrant of that which they teach and therefore shewing that they maintaine them lawfull jure divino and that their tenure of them is from the grant that Christ hath given unto his Church But the trueth of that assertion touching the multitude of those that consent with me will most plainly appeare when we come to speak of the publick and generall testimonies of whole Churches most solemne assemblies of learned godly men touching this controversie In the meane while let us follow Mr Canne according to his owne Method SECT IV. Touching the Testimonies of English Conformists IN the next place they proceed and in an homely phrase they say Touching the English Conformist the formablest of them are for us in this poynt And here they alledge B. Whitgift D. Bilson Whitaker Bell Willet and Taylor Touching these I answer First for B. Whitgift though he confesse that in the Apostles time the state of the Church was popular See Def. ag T. C. p. 180. 182. because the Church had interest almost in every thing yet this proves not that he thought particular Congregations to be independent and uncontrolable by the Deputies of other Churches assembled in Synods The ordinary practise of B. Whitgift in judging the causes of other Congregations shewed that he was farre from the meaning of the Brownists in this poynt His words are wrested by an unjust consequence to prove independency of Churches and the undue power of Synods For D. Bilson there is notable wrong done to him in clipping his words and defacing his testimonie by omitting that which is most materiall in this controversy For when D. Bilson had sayd (a) Perpet Gover. c. 15 p. 360. Though the Presbyters had more skill to judge yet the people had as much right to choose their Pastour if the most part of them did agree they did carrie it from the Clergie Thus farre Mr Canne reciteth his words but here in the midst of the sentence before the period be ended he breakes off and leaves out this exception that is added viz. so the persons chosen were such as the Canons did allow and the ordainers could not justly mislike In this exception D. B. acknowledgeth that there may be just cause to disanull the election of the people if it be found worthy to be misliked And his meaning is yet more evident by the story which in the sentence immediately preceding he alledgeth out of (b) Lib. 7. cap. 35. Socrates touching the election of Proclus who being chosen by the greater number was yet refused because the election was sayd to be against the Canon of translating Bishops and so the people were forced to hold their peace That which is practised in these Reformed Churches is in this poynt the very same thing that D. B. testifies of the Primitive Church for Classes and Synods doe not use to impose or choose Ministers If particular Congregations doe choose a Minister neither Classes nor Synods can disanull the election if there be no just cause of exception against the person elected And if upon just exception the election be hindred yet then also is the new election of another permitted to the free choyse of the particular Church neither doth the Classis deprive them of their just power and liberty therein That it may more plainly appeare how unjustly and unreasonably D. Bilson is alledged as agreeing with my opposites let it be further observed that in his Dispute against Beza such as approve the Discipline of these Reformed Churches he doth not as my adversaries complaine of the undue power of Synods that judge and determine the causes of particular Congregations He acknowledgeth that (c) Perpet Gover. c. 16 p. 370. the necessity and authority of Synods is not so much in question betwixt us as the persons that should assemble and moderate those meetings c. He would have (d) P. 378 c. Metropolitanes to be the Moderatours and rulers of Synods he would have (e) P. 387 c. lay-Elders thrust out from assembling with Ministers in Synods he complaines (f) P. 386 387. of the intolerable charges and expences of having frequent Synods c. Herein he differs from us and we from him But that there is a superiour Ecclesiasticall authoritie in Synods to decide the causes of particular Churches which is the poynt in question herein he agreeth with us He saith of such Synods and their power to judge as followeth (g) P. 372. Their warrant so to doe is builded on the maine grounds of all divine and humane societies strengthened by the promise of our Saviour and assured unto them by the example of the Apostles and perpetuall practise of the Church of Christ Afterwards he saith of their meetings in Synods (h) P. 374. This hath in all Ages as well before as since the great Councell of Nice bene approved and practised as the lawfullest and fittest meanes to discerne trueth from falshood to decide doubts end strifes and redresse wrongs in causes Ecclesiasticall yea when there were no beleeving Magistrates to assist the Church this was the onely way to cleanse the house of God as much as might be from the lothsome vessels of dishonour and after Christian Princes began to professe protect the trueth they never had nor can have any better or safer direction amongst men then by the Synods of wise and godly Pastours And many other things to like purpose are written by him complayning that the denyall of this order is (i) P. 376. an heathenish if not an hellish confusion c. That which they bring out of Scultingius a Papist before alledged is idle impertinent untill they heare me avouch such things as he doth for change of the order of Christ let them refraine their surmises and conjectures of imaginary arguments which they guesse that I will use Having brought such Authours against me mark how Wil. B. or Io. Ca. for him doth triumph against me before the victory in these words (k) Chu pl. p. 85. To say that this superiour power of Classes and Synods is Jure Divino I thinke he will not any more doe it there being in the Scriptures no proofe yea I may boldly say nor shew of any proofe for it I confesse indeed it is boldly spoken of him for who so bold al 's blinde B. But whether there be at least shew of proofe in the Scriptures for the superiour authority of Synods in judging the causes of particular

man of sinne With these testimonies of ancient Fathers Mr Canne alledgeth for his opinion that some Councels have granted so much and Christian Emperours by their Lawes confirmed it Two of these viz. the Councell of Nice Constantinople he alledgeth at large and specifyes no Canon which he intendeth for this purpose And as for the 3d Councell of Carthage whereat Augustine was present I have shewed * Pa. 223. before that it makes directly for us That 22th Canon which he alledgeth viz. (a) Magdeb. Cent. 4. c. 9. col 868. that no Clerk be or dained without examination by Bishops and testimony of the people empeacheth not the authority of Classes and Synods but confirmeth the order established by them And that Christian Emperours have by their lawes confirmed the authority of Synods it is plaine and undenyable The (b) Sulp. Se. v S. Hist l. 2 Councell of Nice that condemned Arius was authorised by Constantine the Great The (c) Sulp. S. Hist con●in ex Sleyd p. 162. Councell of Constantinople that condemned Macedonius was authorised by the Emperour Theodosius the Elder The (d) P. 164. Councell of Ephesus that condemned Nestorius was authorised by Theodosius the younger The (e) P. 170. Councell of Chalcedon that condemned Eutyches was authorised by the Emperour Martianus And as it was in these first Generall Councels so may it be observed in many other Instead of the rest let the (f) Codex Canon Ecc. Univ. edit Christ Just book of Canons suffice confirmed by Iustinian the Emperour there being contained in that book many Canons which ordaine that the causes of particular Churches should be (g) Can. 5 80 83 85. judged by Synods and so decided by another superiour Ecclesiasticall authority out of themselves At the end of these Canons there is added the sanction or decree of Iustinian (h) Novella consti Just Imper. 131. by which he doth not onely allow them and give force of lawes unto them but with an excessive farre greater honour then is due unto them would have the foure Oecumenicall Councels to be receaved even as the holy Scriptures Now though he offended greatly in this his esteeme of them yet this may serve to shew what little reason Mr Canne had to alledge the decrees of Councels for his opinion SECT VII Touching the Testimonies of Reformed Churches FRom ancient times they come back to the later times of Reformation and say (a) Ch. pl. p. 91. Touching Reformed Churches if we may take the Confession of their faith for testimony then surely we have their consent also with us The Churches consenting with them as they vainely imagine are these according to their order in alledging of them The Bohemian Churches Churches under the Palsgrave the Helvetian Churches the French Churches Churches of the Auspurge Confession of the Low-countries of Nasovia But the trueth is both these and other Reformed Churches doe condemne my oppisites in allowing of Synods to judge the causes of particular Congregations The Confession of the Bohemian Churches say they hath these words (b) Harm Conf. c. 14. The keyes that is Ecclesiasticall Government are given in trust and granted to the Pastours and to each severall Ecclesiasticall society that is ordinary Congregation whether they be small or great I answer I. This testimony is clipped by Mr Canne who leaves out the words of order which shew their opinion touching the originall and derivation of this power The words of this Bohemian Confession are that the keyes of the Lord or this administration and power of the keyes is granted and delivered first unto the Governours and Ministers of the Church and then unto every Christian Congregation c. Therein they doe not consent with Mr Canne but with the opinion of Mr Baines noted (c) P. 114 115. before And they doe there also apply these words unto absolution given by the Priest of the Church as they call him To this end they alledge those places Ioh. 20.23 Luk. 10.16 Their meaning is declared more fully before where they (d) Harmo Confes Art 5. de Poenit. p. 241. edit 1612. teach that the poenitent are to come unto the Priest and to confesse their sinnes unto God before him c. and to desire absolution of him by the keyes of the Church that they may obtaine remission of sinnes by such a ministery so instituted of Christ. This order seemes to agree with that forme of absolution described and appointed in the English booke of Common prayer at the visitation of the sick 11. It is acknowledged by the Ministers of the Church of the Picards so called in Bohemia and Moravia in the (e) P. 219. preface to the forementioned Confession of their fayth that their fathers had appealed unto a Synod c. where if any thing should be found dissonant from the Scriptures they were willing from the heart and lovingly to be subject and obedient to the censure and appointment of the Synod in all things This shewes their dissent from Mr Canne and his people III. The Combination of the Christian and Orthodox Churches in Bohemia and Moravia called by themselves The Vnitie of the brethren in Bohemie doth give a cleare testimony unto the trueth touching the authority of Synods for the government of particular Churches and judgement of their causes by a superiour Ecclesiasticall authority out of themselves as appeareth in the booke of their Discipline where they (f) Ratio Discip ordinisq Ecc. in Unitate frat Bohem. c. 2. p. 33.34 38. professe that for weighty causes in providing for the necessities of the whole Vnitie or some Diocesse therein they use to hold Synods either Generall or Particular c. They alledge these 5 ends To confirme brotherly love and concord To strengthen them in the work of the Lord To preserve the vigour of Discipline To exclude scandalous persons out of the number of their Ministers c. To ordaine Ministers c. and for the (g) Ib. p. 41. examination of Ministers before they be confirmed The exercise of this authority is also declared in their (h) Ib. cap. 6. p. 87 88. c. Visitations of the Churches which are in their Vnitie or consociation This example of these brethren of the Vnitie is so much the more to be regarded of us in respect of the singular providence blessing of God in preserving them to this day in the midst of so many persecutions as they have endured being more ancient then other Reformed Churches having continued from the dayes of Iohn Husse and being holpen by the Waldenses that were scattered into those parts so that they (i) Ib. pref p. 2 3. were increased to almost 200 little Congregations in Bohemia Moravia about the yeare 1500 before the time of Luther Their piety love concord and zeale of religion notwithstanding some imperfections appeares by their orders to be very great in speciall their care of sanctifying the

of the Apostle 1. Cor. 11.16 To what end else are those manifold proofes and Allegations which Mr C. hath taken from Authours of all times to shew as he (i) Ch. pl. p. 77-81-89 c. pretends their consent with him and that his opinion may not be thought a Noveltie 11. The due power of Classes Synods is not grounded upon the ancient exercise of it neither is this made an argument to prove the lawfulnes thereof It is onely alledged to shew that others also professing subjection unto the Ordinances of Christ have in like manner understood the divine warrant for the exercise of such government in the Church The Antiquitie whereupon the lawfulnes of this combined politie doth rest is that which it claimeth from the Law and the Gospel as hath been shewed (k) Ch. 2.3 4. before I. C. ANSVV. II. Housoever Mr Paget for the credit of his cause names it the old ancient Discipline yet sure I am to proove it so he never will nor can There are many and I think hee knowes it which doe affirme that the Ecclesiasticall government by Classes and Synods is a weed that grew many yeares after the Apostles A late devise (l) Bilson perp gov c. 16. p 387 and that in all antiquitie there doth not appeare any one step thereof (m) Sutclif Discipl c. 8. p. 138. Also that at Geneva subjecting of Churches to this order first began (n) Bancrost surv c. 22. p. 353. Comp. Ch. p. 91 93 94. And before Calvin came there everie Congregation was free in itself (o) Hook Ecc. Polit. Pref. REPL. 1. These testimonies doe not speak of Synods and the Ecclesiasticall authority exercised by them What trueth is there then in Mr Cannes words when he sayth they affirme that the Ecclesiasticall government exercised by Classes and Synods is a weed c. 11. The distinction which these Authours make betwixt Classes and Synods as it is ungrounded and insufficient to prove the one lesse lawfull or ancient then the other so it can least of all serve Mr Cannes purpose seeing the chief cause why they disallow Classes is because they exclude Hierarchicall authority not simply because they exercise Ecclesiasticall jurisdictiō which is the maine ground whereupon Mr C. doth oppose them III. The place quoted out of D. Bilson where he objecteth unto some their owne device is not properly directed against Classicall government and he seemes to intend it principally against Lay-Elders as they call them as appeares by that which followeth (p) Perpet Gov. p. 388 in his book But to shew how farre he was from uttering any thing that might either disprove the ancient use of Synods or favour independent Church-government and the pretended antiquity thereof mark what he saith elswhere (q) Ibid. p. 376. There is no Christian Realme nor Age wherein the use of Synods hath not bene thought needfull c. as appeareth by the Councils that have bene kept in all kingdomes and countries since the Apostles times when any matter of moment came in question which are extant to this day and likewise by the Synodes that every Nation and Province did yearely celebrate according to the rules of the great Nicene Chalcedon Councils which cannot be numbred were not recorded c. And unlesse you give the Pastor and Presbyters of every Parish full free power to professe what religion they best like to offer what wrongs they will to use what impiety and tyrannie they themselves lift without any restraintor redresse which were an heathenish if not an hellish confusion you must where there is no Christian Magistrate c. yeeld that libertie to the Church of Christ which every humane society hath by the principles of nature to wit that the whole may guide each part the greater number overrule the lesser which without assembling in Synode cannot be done Againe he professeth his judgement touching the danger and noveltie of Independencie when he saith (r) Ibid. p. 378. In questions of faith matters of faction offers of wrong breach of all order equitie shall each place Presbyterie be free to teach doe what they please without depending on or so much as conferring with the rest of their brethren Call you that the Discipline of Christs Church not rather the dissolution of all peace and subversion of all trueth in the house of God I thinke you be not so farre beside yourselves that you strive for this pestilent kinde of anarchie to be brought into the world Our age is giddie enough without this frensie to put them forward Howbeit we seek not what new course you can devise after fifteen hundred yeares to governe the Church but what meanes the ancient and primitive Church of Christ had before Princes embraced the trueth to assemble Synodes pacifie controversies as well touching Religion as Ecclesiasticall regiment c. IV. The words cited by Mr C. out of D. Su●cliffe against Classes are expressely answered by Mr Parker when having fet downe the objection here mentioned viz. that in all antiquitle there doth not appeare one step of these Classicall assemblies he sayth (ſ) De Polit Eccl. l. 3. c. 24. p. 355. What not so much as a step 〈◊〉 there is a step at least extant in the Canonicall law throughout but specially that we be not altogether silent Decret par 2. cap. ● 1. q. 3. c. 4. in the Councils every where in that of Sardica Can. 17. of Africa C. 127. of Laodicea c. 12 whence it appeareth that according to ancient custome neighbour Bishops were alwayes wont to come together in all sorts of difficult cases which the Presbyters at Rome judged to be so necessary that a firme decree could not be made in the farre-spread cause of those that were fallen without the assembling of those that were neer unto them Cypr. L. 2. Epist 3. which course Cyprian himself also followed L. 1. Ep. 8. Cornelius Romanus L. 3. Epist 11. Why doe I spend time There is nothing more evident to him that is acquainted with the ancient monuments of history then that neighbours even besides the Synod did est soone meet together for deciding of strifes for ordinations for dissolving of doubts in sum●●● for every weighty businesse Of which assemblies the Epistles of Cyp●●an 〈◊〉 full And these assemblies what are they els but Classicall assemblies The exceptions that might be made against these things are further answered by Mr Parker in the same place It had behooved Mr C. to have refuted Mr P. herein if he would have us give credit to this assertion of D. Sutcl V. The testimonies next alledged touching Geneva as they are untrue in regard of the state of those Churches so they are unjustly applyed against Classes and Synods seeing as Mr Par. sayth and acknowledgeth with D. Sutcl that (t) Ibid. p. 361.362 Geneva hath neither Classes nor Synods because their territorie is so small

from their Ministers but concerning particular Congregations and their subjection to Ecclesiasticall authority out of themselves Though Mr C. and some others that now strive for the Independencie Churches doe also affect a popular way of government in the Church opposing not onely the power of Classicall Presbyteries but also of particular Elderships yet Popularity doth not necessarily follow upon Independency neither have they alwayes both the same Patrons Mr Iacob though he pleaded for a single uncompounded policie in opposition to Synodall authority yet he utterly disliked those popular circumstances held by the Separation as hath been noted (y) Pag. 176. before Againe the Anabaptists though they maintaine and practise those popular wayes of judging causes among them and (z) Protoc Embd. Act. 101. n. 1. q. 7. Cl. Cl. Bekent p. 218. Cloppenb Cancker der Weder-doop p. 535. oppose the Elderships of the Reformed Churches as exercising an undue power in deciding matters apart from the Congregation yet they allow and practise divers things contrary to the nature of Independencie so as Mr C. pleades for it seeing 1. They have (a) Faukel Babel der Weder-doop pag. 166 167 190. their Bishops as they call them distinct from their other Preachers by them termed Vermaenders that is Admonishers and by some of them (b) Protoc Embd. Act. 78. n. 4. Act. 80. n. 2. held to be Deacons these acknowledge themselves (c) Gesprec to● Zierickz p. 21. to be inferiour to their Bishops in the ministery The Bishops belong to some more eminent Congregations of that Sect doe at certaine times visit the other lesser Congregations and administer the Sacraments among them 2. The Anabaptists (d) Protoc Embd. Act. 99. n. 1. Fauk Babel der Wederd D a. p. 215. use to excommunicate whole Congregations at once when having been of the same profession with them they witnesse their dissent from them in such matters as for which particular persons are excommunicated by them 3. The causes that cannot be determined in their particular Congregations are by them sometimes (e) Babel der Wederd C4 a. C6 b. referred to the judgement of Arbiters men of severall Congregations chosen by both parties with promise to stand to their sentence sometimes also to the meetings of the Officers of sundry Churches This shewes that though they plead for Popularitie yet they doe not simply allow of Independencie 11. Suppose that consideration had been alledged by the Authour against Popular government also as justly it might in regard of the manifold disorders confusion and dissipation of Churches which it is knowne to bring with it yet this answer cannot proove it to be insufficient because it runnes upon a twofold false supposition 1. That this appertaines to the due liberty of the people to have their judgement sought unto for the determining of all controversies that arise in the Church 2. That this liberty is acknowledged to have been taken from them as if they had been once in full possession of it or that this is the maine reason for denying that pretended liberty to the people because of their infirmities or miscarriages in the use of it These things as they are untrue in themselves so they are unjustly obtruded upon the Defendant who had given no occasion to such pretences We maintaine on the other side that this is no part of the peoples priviledge because it is not due unto them by any divine warrant and herein we are further confirmed seeing such an order is in outward appearance and according to undenyable experience in the Anabaptists Brownists others attended with manifold disorders confusion dissipation of Churches 111. Though it were granted that the people have beene oftentimes wiser in their choyce sounder in the faith then their Ministers which yet three of those places (f) Act. 3.26 Zozo l. 7. c. 7. Theod. l. 2. c. 7. here alledged doe not proove there being nothing in them to that purpose for which they are cited yet that is not enough to disprove the foresaid assertion unlesse he could shew that ordinarily they are so qualifyed indued with such abilities as are requisite for the orderly exercise of judiciary power in the Congregation This is not onely contrary to experience but also to the revealed will wisedome of God in dispensing his gifts severally unto the members of the mysticall body of his Church appovnting some to be of meaner use and in subjection to others 1. Cor. 12 14-31 Heb. 13.17 We must either straiten the limits of the Church further then Christ himself hath allowed us by shutting the weak feeble out of his fold or else acknowledge that all the members are not fit to be used in the judiciall trying determining of causes THe next thing that Mr C. (g) Chur. pl. p. 94. pretends to answer is touching the Antiquity of Classicall and Synodall government from those words of the Authour that the power which the Classis exerciseth is ancient c. that he names it the old beaten path c. The Authour indeed had used these words upon just occasion not as any reason or argument to justify the lawfulnes of this power as Mr C. seemes to insinuate but to declare the trueth in the matter of fact rather then in the controversie of right and this may easily appeare to those that looke upon the places (h) Pag. 72. 105. alledged out of the Authours book When an unjust complaint was made that he had subjected the Church under an undue power of the Classis that he brought it under c. he answereth That power which the Classis exerciseth is ancient the same power which they had long before I either knew them or they me c. Againe when there was mention made of those of his side he answered For my part I abhorre this siding I desire to walk in the old beaten path of that discipline and government practised by these Reformed Churches and established in their Classes and Synods c. Was not here just cause to use these words to this purpose for which they are applyed He speakes chiefly of the antiquity of this government in regard of the state of that particular Church of those with which it is combined concerning which Mr C. himself cannot deny but that he hath spoken the trueth But suppose it were uttered in generall with reference unto the joynt consent of the Churches in all ages giving testimony unto the exercise of this power might not this be a weighty profitable consideration to be commended unto the serious thoughts of those that offer to oppose it Let us heare what Mr C. saith to this I. C. ANSVV. I. Sundry errours are as ancient as the Apostles time c. REPL. 1. This doth not prejudice the constant practise of this or any other trueth nor the regard that is to be given unto the custome of the Churches of God according to the direction