Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	ancient_a	church_n	true_a	2,421	5	5.1957	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45152	A plea for the non-conformists tending to justifie them against the clamorous charge of schisme. By a Dr. of Divinity. With two sheets on the same subject by another Hand and Judgement.	Humfrey, John, 1621-1719.	1674 (1674)	Wing H3703A; ESTC R217013	46,853	129

his Answer is 1. That the Presbyterians do not acknowledg it so to whom he spake 2. This was a current Argument of the Presbyterians against the Independents 3. He meant such true Churches as our Parochial Congregations 4. They prove the Communion of Rome is corrupt we only say theirs is 5. Many do hold the Church of Rome truely a Church not a true Church true as to the Essence but not Morally true as to her Doctrine and Worship 6. We did not separate from Rome for we really were never of them we reformed our selves without separating from Rome Notwithstanding all these Answers except the last which I shall shew weak enough Thus much we have gained That it is Lawful in some cases to separate from a body that is Metaphysically a true Church that is truly a Church which is all was intended to be gained That the general Notion of the Truth of a Church should be no more a Medium to prove us Schismaticks now let us examine his particular Answers § 62. The Presbyterians do not acknowledg Rome a true Church and therefore he argued ad homines Indeed I find Mr. Caudry to his Adversary granting something of the Truth of a Church to Rome crying Viderit ipse but he is not the mouth of all Presbyterians did ever any know a Presbyterian Ordaining a Minister the second time because he was the first time Ordained by the Church of Rome yet he was there ordained to offer Sacrifice but also to Preach the Gospel which makes them afraid of it or Baptizing any that turn'd Protestants from Papists Till he had known this he should have forborne this Answer it may be that many of them will grant she hath something of the Metaphysical Verity of a Church A rotten House and falling but yet an House still and we think Christians from such a Church may with-draw § 63. But this was an Argument against the Independents Produce a place where they ever said It was unlawful for Christians to depart from a Church that had the least of truth in it But he says he meant such as our Parochial Congregations this is a general what doth he mean by such 4. They prove the Communion of the Church of Rome corrupt we only say it of theirs And he only says that we only say it We think that many have proved that we cannot Communicate or Minister in it under some present circumstances without what we judge sin Who shall determine betwixt us as to our practice Hath this Author made or can he shew us a strict Answer to Calderwood Gillespy and Dr. Ames and yet much more is to be said in our case then they could speak § 64. Many do say that the Church of Rome is Vere but not Vera Ecclesia that will not do we can shew him vera that is true as well as Vere Truly but his meaning is True in Essence not Morally True what is the meaning of that Not true in her Doctrine and Worship This kind of truth admitts many degrees We would fain know of our Author to what degree of moral truth that Church must be arrived from which he judgeth it sinful to separate for we shall find that divers of his Brethren and Fathers have acknowledged a great degree of moral truth in the Church of Rome from which yet they separated and we believe died in their separation from it Died they as Fools dyed Let me shew this a little Was not the Church of Rome morally true because an antichristian-Antichristian-Church and the Seat of the Antichrist So indeed Bishop Downame Bishop Abbot and many Bishops were wont to say but since that time Bishop Mountagne hath called their Arguments Apocaliptycal phrenzies Dow saith it is doubtful Dr. Heylin saith it cannot be for Antichrist must be a single man a Jew that must kill Enoch and Elias Star Chamber Speech p. 32. Bishop Laud confesseth therefore he hath raced out of the Liturgy the scandalous term Antichristian Sect. § 65. Is the fault in the Doctrine of the Church of Rome it may be some of us think there is fault enough there I trust our Author himself thinks so but neither all former Conformists nor present Conformists believe that she differs from us in any Fundamentals I my self have been told so within few years the Author could not but know that Bishop Laud Dr. Heylin Bishop Potter and many others have thus far asserted her Moral truth again and again as to Doctrine Now may not that be put for a Problem amongst those who are so Zealous in this point Whither it be not Schismatical to separate from a Church upon the account of Doctrine which errs in no fundamentals Yet those great men confessed the latter and did the former If we loose this stand I know not where we shall find a boundary to stop us from separation from a true Church for any one false Proposition of Doctrine maintained in it But what Doctrine is there as to which we cannot shew them that some or other our conforming Fathers or Brethren have not either acknowledged true in their terms or so far true as would make separation for it dangerous yet all these separated from it and died many of them in that black Schisme if it were so Let the Author instance and he shall hear what we can say to it he will I hope spare the Arminian points The Doctrine of Faith as an assent only to the Proposition Justification by Works c. but let him instance § 66. But it may be the business is they have acknowledged and proved her Communion unlawful as to Worship we indeed do so think it sufficiently sinful But have all those Conformists separated from her thought so we think so because we judge her idolatrous in her Adoration of the Eucharist The Saints departed Reliques Images Altars c. and we know that many of our conforming Brethren are of the same mind with us Dr. Brewynt Dr. Stillingfleet and many others have sufficiently told us so but the question is whether all our conforming Brethren who have separated thus judged her thus morally not a true Church What meant Dr. Heylins four bowings at his taking up and setting down the Bread and Wine in the Eucharist Heylins moderate Answer p. 137. What saith the Author of Weights and Measures as to the point of Veneration of Images What saith Bishop Mountague Antig. p. 318. and in his Antid p. 30. and in his Orig. p. 40. he says the Ancient Church did Venerate Reliques Antid p. 44. but I will enlarge no further till I have particular instances given § 67. We see it was the judgment of these men and they were learned men that we may separate from a Church that hath a great degree of moral truth But it may be they thought they did not separate because they and their Fore-fathers were really never of them but reformed themselves But were not our Fore-fathers Baptized into that Church Did