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truth_n	ancient_a	church_n	true_a	2,421	5	5.1957	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A39999	Rectius instruendum, or, A review and examination of the doctrine presented by one assuming the name of ane [sic] informer in three dialogues with a certain doubter, upon the controverted points of episcopacy, the convenants against episcopacy and separation : wherein the unsoundnes, and (in manythinges) the inconsistency of the informers principles, arguments, and answers upon these points, the violence which he hath offred unto the Holy Scripture and to diverse authors ancient and modern, is demonstrat and made appear, and that truth which is after godlines owned by the true Protestant Presbyterian Church of Scotland asserted and vindicated.	Forrester, Thomas, 1635?-1706.	1684 (1684)	Wing F1597; ESTC R36468	441,276	728

Rectius Instruendum Or A REVIEW and EXAMINATION Of the doctrine presented by one assuming the Name of ane Informer in three dialogues with a certain Doubter upon the controverted points of Episcopacy the Covenants against Episcopacy and Separation Wherein The unsoundnes and in many thinges the inconsistency of the Informers principles arguments and answers upon these points the violence which he hath offred unto the holy scripture and to diverse authors ancient and modern is demonstrat and made appear And that truth which is after godlines owned by the true protestant Presbyterian Church of Scotland asserted and vindicated Prov 19. 27 Cease myson to hear the instruction that causeth to erre from the words of knowledge Printed in the Year 1684. THE PREFACE to the reader Christian reader THat which the wiseman long since offered to their consideration who observe the revolving course of providence is ther any thing wherof it may be said this is new hath its signal accomplishment in the renewed collisions of opinions and debeats The conflicts betwixt truth and error or not of yesterday but as early as the morning of time when he who is a liar from the beginning assaulted with a horrid calumny the truth and faithfulnes of God and having by a lie mad a breach in our first parents integrity by inducing them to believe it instilld his poison into our nature a love of darknes rather then light The eye of the understanding like natures bodily organ when its cristalin humor is vitiat cannot see and receive the impression of its object truth and duty in its lively colours and nat●… simplicity and if sometimes the clear beames of truth force a passage for it self make some impression upon the perverse dark mind of man O how quickly is that litle Victory lost this begun signature obliterat by the rebellious will affections The carnal mind is not subject to the Law of God nor can be hence truth is detaind in unrightiousness convictions stiffled and the convincing spirit of God counteracted and grieved Hence all the renewed pleadings for discoveries of truth begets in most men by a wofull antiperistasis nothing but renewed contradiction spurnings against it While as the suns vigorus influence upon the vapors of this dull earth by its irradiations it attracts and condenses thick foggs dark clouds of peruerse disputings the more to obscure it self Yet a holy seed there is and hath been in all generations children of light and of the day whose work and honourable badge it is to contend and be valiant for the truth who under the conduct of Michael that great prince who stands up for his people truths sincere lovers and asserters have from the beginning warred this good warfare against that old apostat and his followers So that the warr which John saw in heaven betwixt Michael and the Dragon was not then only begun but a new battel and encounter of that old warr proclaimd in paradise betwixt the seed of the woman and the serpent All men are inrolled in one of these two armies imbarques in one of these interests according as they are regenerat or unregenerat as they have the seed of God in them or not discovries of truth have various effects accordingly either of more intense love or violent hatred as the sun shining upon the flowers dunghil draws equally forth a sweet stinking savour The erecting of this royal stand art of Zions King and lawgiver ingadges his faithfull witnesses to flow unto it and come under it and excits such who have but the spirit of that world in them to a counter-muster against it Who would not have thought that the longed for appearances of that Immanuel and desire of all nations that eternal word and wisdom of God in the flesh should have put an end to all rebellion of wretched sinners aga●… him but it never grew more then by his convincing discovries of himself Eternal truth and holines suffred contradiction of sinners against himself he oft silenced enemies reasonings not their malice and the most admirable actings of his effectionat condescending love to men the giving of himself to death for them was intertained with the most virulent and hellish eruptions of their wrath against him in murthring him The rulers opposed this great ruler of Israel the learned scribes and rabbies with all their literal knowledge of Moses and the Prophets could not yea would not see and acknowledge this great Prophet the covenanted people would not receive this great messenger of the Covenant and they who boasted to be Abrahams seed rejected this promised seed could not see him when among them but hated him whom Abraham saw a far off and rejoyced in the discovery Yet this wisdom of God was then and still is justified of all children of God and such as are of the truth will see its beauty throw all the mists of mens calumnies and contendings against it The angry cloud wherwith God hath now of a considerable time covered the daughter of Zion in our land challenges in this as much as in any thing else our mournfull observation simpathizing compassion that men have taken the boldnes with perverse disputings to infest her true sons and children to assault her precius ordinances and priviledges and with a barefac'd impudence to indeavour the removal of the ancient land marks which our fathers have set nay which the great God hath established Yea to cajoll us with poor sophistry into a carless disregard and abandoning of the magnalia Dei the great things of gods Law important truths and dueties as if they were meer trifles and indifferencies to cast the aspersions of supercilius scrupulositie upon true zeal for God of rebellion upon true loyalti and faithfulness to the King of saints of devisive humor upon sincer indeavours after the union and true order of the house of God is it not to put light for darknes and darknes for light bitter for wee●…t and sweet for bitter yea cru●… percilius mockrie Yet at this rate are we treated by our prelatick pamphleters The authority of the second great moral precept anent the receiving and maintaining of all gods ordinances the doct worsh. disc and governm of his house the weight and importance of the third anent the observation of most sacred solemn oathes and vowes to him for this great end weighes but light in these mens ballances but he whose hand holds the plummet and line judgeth otherwise their ballances are false not the ballances of the sanctuary Their new plagiary divinity depending in a great measure upon the camelion-rule of worldly wisdom and steering its course by the versatil rule of human lawes is calculat for any meridian but that of canaan immanuels land where all must go to his Law and testimony and is pronounced base mettal which is reprobat by that touchston where every pin of the tabernacle must have its samplar from the holy mount ere it get

opposition to prelacy So the Confession of the French Church Credimus veram Ecclesiam c We believe that the true Church ought to be governed by that policy which Christ hath ordained viz that there be Pastours Presbyters or Elders and Deacons And again we believe that all true pastours wherever they be are endued with equal and the same power under one head and Bishop Christ Iesus which strikes our Diocesian and Erastian frame of government starke dead Which is seconded thus by the Belgick Confess Art 30. All Christs Ministers of the word of God have the same and equal power and authority as being all Ministers of that only universall head and Bishop Christ. To thesewe might adde many other Testimonies of reformed divines as Calvin Piscator Marl●…rat on 1. Tim 4. 14. Tit. 1. 3. Zanch. de Statu P●…ccat and Legal in 4tum praecep Chemnitius Loc. Com. Part. 3. de Eccles. Cap. 4. Exam. Concil Trid. part 2. de Sacram. ordinis pag. 224 225. proving also that Election and vocation of Ministers belongs to the whole Church Antonius Sadael Resp. ad repetita Turriani Sophismata par 2. lo●… 12. Beza de divers Ministrorum gradibus Iunius Controv. 5. l. c 3. N 3. Chamierus Panstratia Cathol Tom 2. de Occum Pontis Cap 6. A 3d. Great point of Presbyterian Government in opposition to prelacie is the peoples interest in the election and call of Ministers And for this there is as full a consent of divines and Churches both ancient and Modern Severall of the forementioned Confessions clears this the peoples election and call being taken in together with Presbyters ordination Cyprian Epist. 68. is full to this purpose Plebs ipsa maxime habet potestatem vel eligendi dignos sacerdotes vel indignos recusandi quod ipsum videmus de divina authoritate descendere ut Sacerdos sub omnium oculis plebe presente deligatur dignus atque idoneus public●… judicio ac Testimonio comprobetur That is The people themselves have Chiefly the power either of Electing worthy priests or refusing the unworthy which mater we see even of it self to descend from the divine authority that the priest be set apart under the eyes of all in the peoples presence and as worthy and qualified be approved by a publick judgment and Testimony So lib 1. Epist 4. is full for the Churches libertie and right in elections The 4t Council of Carthage Can. 22. Requires to the admission of every Clergy man civium assensum testimonium convenientiam The consent of the citzens their testimonie and agreement Socrat l. 4. c. 25. sayes that Ambrose was chosen Bishop of Millan by the uniform voice of the Church In the pretended Apostolick but truely old constitutions of Clement lib. 8. cap. 4. The Bishop who must be ordained is appointed in all things to be unblameable chosen by all the people unto whom let the people being assembled on the Lords day N. B. with the Presbytery and the Bishops there present give their consent And a Bishop askes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Presbytery the people●… if they desire such a man to be set over them The Helvetick confession told us that the right choosing of Ministers is by consent of the Church So the Belgick confession tells us that Ministers Elders and Deacons are to be advanced to their office by the lawfull election of the Church Greg. Nazian orat 31. commends Athanasius his calling as being after the Apostolical example 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the suffrage of all the people Blondel clears this from a large consent of antiquitie page 379. to 473. And this is cleared also by a large consent of protestant divines Luther de potest Papae Calvin on Act. 6 3. Beza confess Cap. 5. Art 35. Musculus in Loc. com Zanch. on 4t com Junius Animadvers on Bellarm Controv. 5. l. c. 7. Cartwright on Act. 14. v. 23. Wallaeus Bullinger Wittaker See Mr Gilesp Misc. quest pag 18 19. Our first book of Discipline appoints to the people their votes and suffrage in election of Ministers in the 4t head And the 2d book Cap 3. discharges any to intrude contrary to the will of the congregation or without the voice of the eldership A 4t Essential point of Presbyterian Government in opposition to Prelacie is in relation to the office of the ruleing elder as appointed by Christ. This we cleared from Scripture and there is as cleare a consent of antiquitie for it and of modern reformed Churches and divines exhibited by our writers For this Ignatius Epist ad Trallianos ad initium pag. 66. edit oxon An. 1644. is cited Likewise Baronius in his Annals Anno 103. in the Gesta purgationis Caeciliani Felicis Tertul. Apolog. Advers gentes Cap. 39. Origen ontra Celsum lib. 3. Cyprian Epist. 36. Optatus lib. 1. pag. 41. edit paris An. 1631. Ambrose comment on 1 Tim. 5 1. And for modern writers Whittaker contra Duraeum lib 9. Sect. 47. Thorndicks discourse of religious assemblies cap. 4. pag. 117. Rivet Cathol Orthodox Tract 2. quest 22 Sect. 4 Finally Presbyterian Government as it stands in opposition to the present Prelacie in its Erastian mould and maintaines a spirituall authoritie in the hands of Church officers distinct from and independent upon the civill powers of the world hath as full a consent of the learned As Erastianism was first hatched by Thomas Erastus Physician in Heidleberg about the year 1568. And much catched up and pleaded for by Arminians since so it hath been impugned by a full consent of reformed divines who have fully proved it to be contrary to the rules of Church Government set down in the Scripture both in the old and new Testament and utterly eversive of the Gospel Ministrie and Church The eminent divines who have written against it are Beza who encounters with Erastus himself upon this point Zachriasursin Wallaeus Helmichius Triglandus Dr Revius Dr Voetius Appollonius and many others Especially the famous and learned Mr Gillespy in that elaborat peice entituled Aarons rod blossoming wherein the consent of the ancient and modern Church as to this great point of truth is exhibit See 2. book 1 Cap. p●…g 167. Now from all that is said Whither Presbyterian Government hath not the patronage of the purest Scripture antiquity and a full consent of the after purer times and of reformed Churches and divines in all the forementioned points of its opposition to the Prelacie now established Both in holding 1. The identity of Bishop and Presbyter as to name and things 2. Presbyters right of ordination and Jurisdiction 3. The peoples interest in the Election and call o. Ministers 4. The ruleing Elders office 5. The Churches intrinsick power of Government I leave to the Impartiall to judge And consequently of the vanity of this new Dialoguist His pleading upon this point A Confutation Of the Second DIALOGUE Anent the Covenants Against EPISCOPACIE Wherein the Informers reasonings against the

Presbyterian Ministers and their Assemblies Next Mr Rutherfoords scope is to prove that personal faults corrupt not the worship which wee deny not but as we have above cleared this falls utterly short of reaching his conclusion as to the owning of Curats untill he first prove his forementioned suppositions wherein he begs the question and this principle or assertion of Mr Rutherfoord will plead more strongly for not disowning Presbyterian Ministers untill this Informer prove his suppositions and disprove ours in this debate In a word the impertinency of all his citations here appears in this that there is no reason whereby he can ward of this argument its reaching adherence to Presbyterian Ministers and inferring a conclusion of owning them but it will either first be retorted upon himself or secondly the universality of the argument and the conclusion deduced there from so limited as utterly to irritat his design since he must acknowledge that there may be a Lawfull separation from a Ministry and ordinances altho not polluted by personal scandals And therefore this principle in every case will not infer a separation to be unlawfull far less a non union and he must acknowledge that to argue the unlawfulness of a separation or non-union in every case or meerly from this ground that there is no pollution of ordinances by the personal faults of Worshipers or administrators thereof is a gross petitio principii ignoratio elenchi and which his case supposeth many things which are to be proved as 1. That Conformists are this Church 2. That this practice of disowning them as now circumstantiat is properly a sinfull separation 3. That Prelatists have the best right to officiat as Ministers in this Church 4. That we have no other reasons for a non-union but this pretended pollution of ordinances and that we stand obliged upon this supposition that the ordinances are not thus polluted to joyn to them rather then Presbyterian Ministers And since this principle will prove them all to be Schismaticks who disowne Presbyterian Ministers in preaching the Gospel it will follow therefrom that our Informer is in this pamphlet pleading for Schism or else he must so limit this position as thereby his conclusion against us shall be utterly cut off as is said Fourthly he presents unto us that passage page 254. where he shews That the godly in England tho separating from Bishops and Ceremonies did not separat from that Church and approves their doing so and in keeping communion therwith in unquestionable duties the contrary whereof he charges upon these separatists against whom he reasoneth telling us ibidem that if a Church be incorrigible in a wicked conversation and yet retain the true faith it s to be presumed that God hath some there to be saved that Christ himself is where his ordinances are and some union with him the head that though a privat scandalous brother ought to be cast off yet not an Orthodox Chuch Ans. 1. The Presbyterians have all this to plead for pleoples adherence to them untill this Informer prove that the prelatick party are our nationall organick Church which will be ad Kalendas Graecas 2. Mr Rutherfoord all along states his question as to separation from a Church so and so polluted Ergo he spaks not of a Schismatick destroying Innovating party or a separation from them rather then a sound Church contending against them which would quite invert his scope and arguing and the ground and hypothesis thereof For I pose this man what if a party of acknowledged Innovators cast out the true Ministry and should plead this passage of Mr Rutherfoords for their schism and the peoples adherence to them sure he would charge them with begging the question as we do Consormists in this point and would acknowledge that Mr Rutherfoord pleads nothing for them Fiftly Mr Rutherfoord sayes ib idem We may separat from the Lords supper where the bread is ador'd and from baptism where the sign of the cross is yet we are not to separat from the Church Ans. We may hence collect that in Mr Rutherfoords principles 1. We are to separat from all contagious Worship tho not absolutly corrupt 2. That this is no separation from the Church while there is a purer Church Ministry to be joyned with and to which we were joynd 3. That a fortiori a non-union unto and disowning of a backsliding party who are not our Church is warrantable because of their contagious corruptions especially when as is said the opposition of that party to the true Church is so virulent Mr Rutherfoord tells us there that we separat not from the Church when we profess to hear the word and allow the truth of Doctrine and do not Presbyterian professors owne the true Doctrine of our Reformed Church while hearing and and adhering unto her faithfull Pastors Beside Mr Rutherfoord tells us that there may be cause of non-union where there is not sufficient cause of separation as Paul separat not from the Jews till they blasphemed yet saith he there was no cause why people should joyn to that Church before that time since they had the cleaner to joyn with viz. That of the Apostles Ergo in case of a true Reformed Church her being divided and rent by a backsliding destroying party opposing her Authority union and purity introducing Innovations into her contrary to her Reformation and vows and casting out her faithfull Ministry who dare not comply with their wicked course a non-union to them and adherence rather to that faithfull Ministry contending against them is no sinfull separation from the Church nor a separation at all by Mr Rutherfoords doctrine Sure the Presbyterian party are in our principles the cleanest Church to whom therefore Mr Rutherfoords allows to adhere page 253. But here the Informer presents us another passage in that same place to repell what is said viz. that he asserts there is no just cause to leave a less clean Church if true and to go to a purer though one who is a member of no Church may joyn to that which he conceives purest Ans. This makes as little for him as any of the rest for 1. He is still speaking of a Church thus intirely less pure in comparison of a more pure But blessed be God their prelatick impurity has not infected all our Church their being 1000 of Ministers professors who adhere to the truth This man will not say that this will plead for a peoples adherence to a party of Schismatick backsliders Intruding upon a pure Church Introducing Innovations into her and ejecting her faithfull Ministry as Conformists are now doing which will be yet more convincingly clear if we consider 2. that Mr Rutherfoord layes much weight upon this that a man is already a member of that Church which is less pure but we cannot be said to be hactenus members of and on this ground under a prior obligation of adherence unto a party of Innovators and

such a president or primat as diotrephes affected to be distinct from the Divinely appointed Bishop And therefore whatever he might suppose to be creeping in at that tyme he must needs upon this ground interpret it to be a recesse from the divine appointment and in so far a Corruption As for what our Informer repeats here againe ad nauseam That Bishops were immediatly the Church before all the Apostles were gone and imediatly after which is a commentary upon Timothy and Titus and the Asian Angels and Diotrephes I answer I beleive indeed as to his last instance that there were Diotrephesies earely enugh and Beza's Episcopus humanus or fixed president but that there was either in the Apostles time or ane hundered years and more afterward I speak far within compass his Diocesian Prelat with sole power of ordination and jurisdiction in a Diocess he will assoone joyn the poles together as prove it by any faithful and authentick Testimony CHAP. XII The Informers appeal to antiquity in the point of Episcopacy That antiquity is at most testis facti but not judex veri may witness matter of fact but is no judge of what is right therein proved from the Testimony of Scripture and the fathers The Informer's reasoning on this head reduced to a formal Syllogisme and discussed That in the first purest age the Church was governd by Presbyters withtout Bishopes proved by Testimonys of the fathers particularly of Ierome His Testimony at Large vindicated from the exceptiones of the Informer OUr Informer hath by this time got out of the straites of his Scripture Arguments for prelacy and his pretended replyes to Scripture arguments against them Wherin we have seen how pittifully he lies been Bruillied in his endeavours to put the fairding of some Scripture Characters upon this Monster The Diocesian Prelat Now he wil lanch out in to the vast Ocean of Antiquity wherein he supposes and not altogother amisse that this Leviathan can swim much better And therefore he fills up the Third part of the pamplet with a tedious legend of human Testimonyes in relation to Bishops But in this his argueing from antiquity he playes the same petty Sophister as in his pretended Scripture proofes For he is still pleading for a versatil Chimaera of his own braine and dare not state the Question as to the Prelat now existent in his Diocesian and erastian mould like to whom if he will shew me but one Prelat among all his ragged Testimonies I will yeeld the Cause to him So that we are not concened in his Testimonies They being all Mute or Ambiguous as to our debate Wee shall therefore proceed to Consider the substantials of his Argument on this head and add some Chapters which will be found abundantly to cutt the sinne●…es of his reasoning from pretended Testimonies of the Fathers and vindicat our Cause even in point of Antiquity 〈◊〉 I Suppose this man if he will not renounce his protestant profession cannot but grant that it is not Antiquity as he call it or human Testimonies but the Scriptures of truth which most judge in this debate So that I hop I may suppose that he lookes upon his Antiquitity as ane accessorie appendix onely to his Scripture arguments and that the Scripture is not for him but against him I hope it is conuincingly apparent from that is said above we must to the law and the Testimony in this and all other points of faith Antiquity without the first Scripture antiquity deserves not the name Id adulterum quod posterius id verum quod pri nium said Tertullian That is adulterat which is Last and trere which is first I am the way the truth and the Life said Christ but not I am Custome And Cyprian tells us that Consuetudo sins veritate est vetusias erroris Antiquity without truth is but a mouldy error Our Lord himself rejected this argument it was said of old and apposes unto it but I say Well may we then oppose the Scripture sayings to our Informer's it was said of old and by our Lords warrand reject his pretences from Antiquity to warrand any thing which the word condemnes and for this we have good warrand of antiquity it self for the fathers universaly doe hold that onelie the Scriptures must judge in points of faith Sunt libri Dominici quorum authoritati utrique consentimus utrique credimus there being in them all things to be believed and practised utrique servimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causam nostram is great Augustins advice The books of the Lord are they to whose Authority we both consent which we both beleive To which we both submit There let us seek the Church There let us discusse our Cause Jerom on Chap. 23 of Matth. tells us quod de scripturis authoritatem non habet eaedem facilitate contemnitur qua probatur That which derives not its authority from Scripture the contemneing of it is as ready as the proof is offered and on the 1. Chap. of Hag Quae absque athoritate Testimoniis scripturarum quasi traditione Apostolica sponte reperiunt atque confingunt percutit Gladius Dei Such things as men of there own accord find out forge upon pretence of Apostolick tradition with out the authority and Testimonies of Scriptures the sword of God strikes throw the same Besides this discovers the plea from Antiquity to be very Impertiment in this debate Because the Question betwixt us is not defacto but de jure not what sort of Bishops have been as to matter of fact introduced into the Church of old or of late but by what warrand and right they have possessed their places We alledge and prove that the present Prelat now existent stands condemned by Christ the great lawgiver his rules in point of Church Government set down in his Testament Now to answer this Charge with humane Testimonies as to Custom or practise of the Church even granting that his Testimonies did prove the matter of fact viz That our present Prelat is exemplified in the ancient Bishops what is it but to oppose humane corruption to Gods ordinance The practise of men to Gods rule and mens Testimonies who are liars to the divine Oracles of the God of truth This man thinkes it a Herculean argument when he drawes his human Testimonies as to prelacy neer the Apostles time as if he had travelled to Hercules pillars and wonders how we can suppose that the Church could so soon alter the divine institutions But I pray how long was it after Gods Holy law was proclaimed from heaven by his own terrible voice that the wholl Church of Israel together with Aaron himself set up and worshiped the golden Calf contrary unto the very express letter of the Second command Now suppose that idolatry several hundered years afterward had pleaded this Antiquity or ancient Custome of the Church of Israel after frequently imitated and which had its plausible pretexts of intention to

adherence to this Church her sworn Reformation principles and faithfull Ministry adherence to a divided Sect. For the 4. anent the difference betwixt a sound and sinfull zeal and that we be suspicious of our Religious passions we say zeal for the Gospel for keeping Covenant with God for reformation from popry and prelacy which is the the Test of our zeal as stated in opposition to them doth convincingly evidence its soundness For the 5. anent not being over tender of our repute or impatient of mens censures we say to be tender of truth and duty and our good name in maintaining it which is as precious ointment and to be tender of not offending and displeasing all who are thus tender is nothing but a true and Gospel-tenderness For the 6. anent eshewing needless fellowship with the more censorious Christians we say we stand oblig'd to keep fellowship with all the godly in all duties and this charge of over censoriousness we deny as to our plea against Conformists neither hath he Informer yet made it good For the 7. that we lay not too much weight on doubtfull opinions nor begin with them we bless God that in this pure Church Gods people have been taught the solid beginnings and first principles and do build on that foundation But we have not so learned Christ as to put into the Category of things doubtfull breach of Covenant abjur'd Prelacy and a Schismatick sinfull complyance therewith For the 8. anent not admiring or favouring a preacher for his voice affectionat utterance c. Without solid understanding we say Gods people with us have been helped not to regard mens speech but their power And as they know Christ the great shepherd his truth by his voice from them accordingly as his sheep to follow them For the 9. anent not rejecting a good cause because owned by bad men we say the cause we disowne is bad in it self and we disowne the owners of this bad cause upon this ground And are confirmed in our disowning of it by the fruits which we see the owning of it produceth in its supporters and abbetors which are such as do warrand us according to our Lords command to avoid and beware of them For the 10. not to follow the bad examples of Religious persons we bless the Lord we are taught to walk by the rule of Gods Word not by examples of men and not to follow even a Paul further then he is a follower of Christ. For the 11. anent keeping an eye on the state of all Churches upon earth and pondering how Christ keeps fellowship with them lest while we think we separat only from these about us we separat from almost all Churches we say that we have lookt upon our own Church deservedly as among the purest and best reformed and by the same rule are concerned to keep up fellowship with her as knowing that such as renounce fellowship with her would renounce it with all Churches And this we do with a due charity for all Reformed Churches and whatever Churches do hold the foundation But upon these grounds we are bound to disowne destroying Schismaticks as are our Conformists who have introduced abjured innovations contrary to her pure constitution and Reformation and have gone out from her fellowship and by the same consequential reason from the fellowship of all Churches For the last rule which he mentions that we count it as comfortable to be a martyr for love and peace by blind zealots as for the faith by infidels we say that we owne no zeal which is not according to knowledge and are contending for the union and reformation of our Mother against a party of blind fiery zelots for ane abjured hierarchy contrary to the Word of God and this Churches vows in which honourable quarrel that many have suffered even to bonds imprisonments yea death it self it is our Glory As for what he adds of the English nonconformists their testyfing against separation as a way which God never blessed with peace and holiness though they dissented from the Ceremonies I nothing doubt but that they would have put the same Character upon the practice of the Prelats and their followers had they seen and known all the circumstances of our case They dissenting from fellowship in the ceremonies and eatenus from fellowship in the Worship though that Church had never been purged from them how much more then are we concerned to disowne innovations introduced into this Church after they have been cast out and vowed against Suppose that Church had been as ours Reformed in doctrine Worship discipline and Government and a party had risen up destroying that pure constitution contrary to all their vows admitting none to fellowship without acknowledging of their wicked course persecuting and casting out all Ministers and professors who would not concur And then let them tell us what these nonco●…ists would have done in this case surely upon the same ground that they eshewed a contagion in communicating with the Ceremonies they would have eshewed this piece of contagious conformity also Especially the express vows of adherence to that supposed reformation in every piece of it and of disowning all recesses all backsliders and of owning all adherers to these vows in prusuing the ends thereof being taken in and duely pondered After the close of this Dialogue our Informer will needs strengthen his plea in presenting unto us by way of Apendix some passages of the English Presbyterians their Jus divinum Ministerij Anglicani and likewise in Mr Rutherfoord his due right of Presbytery anent the unwarrantableness of Separatio●… which as they are utterly alien from our purpose so as would seem in the conviction hereof he doth not so much as offer to draw an argument from any of them while propounding these his grand supposed topicks except a general hint at the close which is utterly insufficient to fortify his conclusion as we shall after shew but leaves the favourable conclusion to be drawn by his half-proselyted Doubter or friendly partial reader However altho upon the matter any seeming conclusion he might draw from them is answered yet we shall view them briefly having premised 1. That he supposes but hath not yet made good the charge of a sinfull separation upon the people of God in this case which we have shown to be more applicable to himself 2. That the case of separation from that Church at that time because of her corruptions is far wide from this case of our disowning Conformists now and consequently all his citations will never come home to our purpose because 1. Not to separat from a Church upon the ground of corruptions which have been long setled in her is very far distinct from this practice of disowning an Innovating party introducing corruptions to the ruine of a pure Church after they have been seen and universally cast out which is the practice he now pleads for a stop as to an advance in Reformation is much different from