what you delivered at Winchcomb Nov. 8. in disgrace of our Ministry and Parish-Churches but if you go on to decline answering and are only good at opposing I do not refuse to appear again in defence not only of our ministring the Sacrament but of the other two Theses That your new Churches are not the only true Churches And That Christ was truly Preached before these late years Upon which in conformity to the old Vniversity fashion I take leave to adde here not any Libel as one of you called it but my sad Epigram Papists took one away but you combine To rob the People both of Bread and Wine They blame us ' cause we have not Rites so many But you condemn us more ' cause we have any They will not call us Catholicks you can Scarce yield us the first name of Christian Poor English Church thy enemies from Rome Were cruel more unkind are these at home Your servant in the Truth Clement Barksdale Oxon. Nov. 16. 1653. Disputandi Sobrietas Ecclesiarum Medicina A true Account of a Dispute at winchcomb-parish-Winchcomb-Parish-Church November 9. 1653. Written by a careful Observer November 11. and Printed with Licence November 16. for the satisfaction of the People at and neer Winchcomb Great is the Truth and it will prevail UPON the ninth of this November between nine and ten in the Morning Mr. Barksdale Minister at Sudeley the Respondent having waited a while for the comming of the Opponents first enters Mr. Helm Minister at Winchcomb immediately after him enters Collonel Aileworth Justice of peace Mr. Tray Minister at Oddington Mr. Wells Minister at Tewksbury Mr. Chaffy Minister at Naunton and some other 1. After they had taken possession of the Ministers Pue all together the Respondent ascends a Pue ex opposito which he had caused to be erected for the purpose his friend Mr. Towers Minister at Toddington and some other Orthodox Ministers taking up a lower seat next unto him on the right hand where first falling on his knees after a short ejaculation he shews himself and saluted his Opponents and after some little Pause the Question was proposed Whether it be lawful to Minister and Receive the Holy Sacrament in Congregations called mixt Or in our Parish-Churches Aff. The prior Opponent Mr. H. desired to begin with prayer Take your liberty said the Respondent who after the Preface wherein like a good Orator the Opponent told the people that Truth must look for opposition and that the Respondent was a native of the place and himself a stranger and the prayer done spake thus You will now give me leave also to speak three words 1. To God 2. To the Hearers 3. To the Opponents 1. To God I make my humble address and intreat you to lift up your hearts with me that he would be pleased to open our eyes that we may see the Truth to open our Hearts that we may embrace the Truth and to give us courage to confess the Truth and to hold it fast unto the end for Jesus Christs sake to whom be glory for ever 2. To the Hearers my earnest desire is that you would lay aside all prejudice and partiality and listen to what shall be said on either side with silence and patience And because I am a man of a slow Tongue of a tender Forehead of a frail Memory of a weak Judgement I have the more cause to beg of you my friends your secret assistance by your mental prayer that God would support me so far as I defend his cause For I declare in the presence of God the searcher of hearts that I do verily think that to be true which I maintain and that I am not willingly an enemy to true Reformation or the work of God in this place as I have been grievously charged nor am I a friend to any thing that can justly be called Popish or Antichristian God knows I detest and abhor it 3. Lastly to these Gentlemen my Opponents my request is that you would deal with me fairly and Scholar-like Take you your turns and give me mine to speak come you on one after one and let me have liberty to repeat to deny to distinguish to explain what I say so far as is needful And to conclude if we cannot agree in our opinions let us yet I pray be one in Affection and preserve amongst us that Christian Peace and Charity which is the mark and the honour of the Disciples of our gracious Lord and Master The Respondent in one of his papers afore this exercise had called the publick Meeting place as they term it the House of God But one of the Opponents Mr. W. put forward and omitting the Question began in a light velitation about that Appellation after this manner W. The House of God it is Superstition to call the place so B. I deny that proposition prove it W. The People of God are alone his House God dwells in the Hearts of his Saints B. I Answer the House of God is either the Spiritual House or the Material House The Hearts of his Elect People are the Spiritual House wherein it pleaseth God to dwell and reside This place built by our pious Ancestors and separated from other uses to his Honour and Service may without offence be called his Material House W. This House was not built for the Honour and Service of God B. I expect your proof of that Proposition W. Thus The House built in the reign of Popery and for the Honour and Adoration of Saints was not built for the honour and Service of God But this House was built in the reign of Popery and for the Honour and Adoration of Saints Therefore this House was not built for the Honour and Service of God B. I repeat The House built c. And I answer to the major by distinguishing of the end for which the House was built The End is either principal or less principal This House was built for the Honour and service of God as the principal End it was built for the Honour and Adoration of Saints as the less principal End In the Reformation of Religion our Church reteined the first End and rectifyed the second Honouring the Saints with a pious Memory not Adoring them with divine Worship Hear the Church her self speak in her excellent Liturgy W. H. Away with it we will hear none of your Liturgy and old Forms B. But I must clear the Church from all suspicion of Adoring the Saints and make the Truth evident out of the Collect for All-Saints day and 't is worthy to be heard of All Almighty God which hast knit together thy elect in one Communion and fellowship in the mystical body of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord grant us grace so to follow thy holy Saints in all vertuous and Godly living that we may come to those unspeakable joys which thou hast prepared for them that unfeignedly love thee through Jesus Christ our Lord Amen I beseech
use for advice and counsell not for goverment or for the exercise of any jurisdiction B. Then as I conceive your modell is very imperfect and me thinks your Ministers in their severall Congregations look like so many little Popes For the Pope is the Great Independent and will allow of no Appeal from him no more will you H. Pray Mr. B. quiet the People B. I beseech you good people I beseech you attend with silence and patience Tr. Where presently followes Execution there can be no appeal But after the sentence of the Congregation presently followes execution If he hear not the Church let him c. Therefore from the sentence of the Congregation can be no appeal B. Well argued I repeat Where presently c. I answer first to the major or first proposition There may be an appeal after execution of the sentence of the Congregation In your own way may not the wronged person appeal from you to your selves In the Presbyterian you know there lyes an appeal to the Classis but that I take not on me to maintain I know no power to excommunicate but Episcopall Tr. Then it seems by you the Bishop is the Church and the sole judge of the Congregations B. Not so neither Hear my Answer I pray and do not you ignorant fellowes laugh at that you do not understand The Bishop is considered either Sole or alone or as he sits in Cathedra crowned with Presbyters In this later sense I humbly conceive the Bishop is or ought to be Governour of the Congregations within his Diocese And such Bishops we can shew innumerable in the ancient Records of the Catholique Church I am very sorry these Gentlemen are so ill read in good Books of our own English Divines as to deny a truth shining so bright upon them Mr. Tr. have you not seen the learned Thorndike of the primitive Government c Tr. We cleave to the Scripture and call you to the foresaid text Can you shew one place where Church is taken for the Bishop and his Presbyters B. What if I cannot The Authority of the antient Fathers is sufficient for the present to commend my interpretation to such as reverence Antiquity But because I would gladly please you I will offer another sense of the words in question which will come neer to you but is not fully yours That is after the first admonition by one and the second before two or three it is the mind of Christ that a greater number should be made acquainted with the business tell it to the Many for the shaming of the offendor as the Apostle somewhere speaks the words may the more probably be taken in this sense because as yet the Disciples were not setled under a Church-government and so there remaining no more to be done after this shaming of the offendor before a good number of Fellow-Christians i. e. the Church he was to be henceforth till his amendment accounted as a heathen and might be prosecuted for any offence before the heathen Tribunalls Which prosecution was not lawfull against those that would hear the Church See 1 Cor. 6. But this will do you no pleasure unless that which followes in the next verse belong unto the Congregation too but that cannot be if Christ spake the words to his Apostles and gave the Keys and Power of Binding and Loosing to them and their successors as I believe he did Consider of it See the learned Dr. Hammond of binding and loosing To. Give me leave to add somewhat here in confirmation of what was last said Scripture you know gives light to Scripture Christ elswhere saith to Peter that he would give the Keys to him Matth. 16. 19. And John 20. 21 21 23. he speaketh to his Disciples and thus enstateth them in that power Then said Jesus to them again Peace be unto you as my Father hath sent me even so send I you And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them Receive yee the holy Ghost whosoever sins yee remit they are remitted unto them and whosoever sins ye retain they are retained these are the solemn words of Ordination W. The words are spoken to Peter and to the Disciples as they were Christian professors and so they do belong to our people not as they were appointed by Christ to be Governours of his Church To. The words signify a power committed to them which they used as Governours 't is plain and which they left to the Bishops their Successours Tr. The Apostles had no successors being gifted with a miraculous power B. The Apostles are to be considered in two respects either as planters of the Churches and to that purpose endued with a miraculous power to make way for and to give confirmation to the Gospel or else as Governours of the Churches invested with the ordinary lasting power of ordaining Elders of binding and loosing and of setting things in order herein who were their Successors you may see if you will inform your selves in the book of binding and loosing and in the Latin dissertations against Blondellus Pray take it not ill that we often assert this it is of such concernence that with this truth the Ministers of England must either stand or fall We speak not for Bishops to be Lords of Lands but Fathers of the Church You must all mark that Tr. The difference 'twixt us appears plainly you are for Bishops which you call the Primitive Apostolical Bishops and in them you place the power which Christ hath left to his Church We are for the Bodies of Congregations which we say are under no superiors neither Bishops nor Presbyters but absolute and independent in respect of man and immediatly under Jesus Christ Col. A. Bishops and Presbyters are all one in the New Testament namely Acts 20. 17. Paul sent to Ephesus and called the Elders of the Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and v. 28. the holy Ghost hath made you overseers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore Presbyters and Bishops are all one P. Noble Sir I answer Bishops in the new Testament are also called Presbyters but they are more than those we now call Presbyters who are to be ordained and governed by the Bishops Any Presbyter may be called Bishop or Overseer of his own Parish but those we eminently stile Bishops now who are Bishops or Overseers and Rulers of those Parish Bishops or Presbyters The Presbyters St. Paul sent for from Ephesus were properly Bishops Tr. No Hear my Argument The Church of Ephesus was but one Congregation I prove it out of Eph. 2. the two last verses In whom Jesus Christ all the building fitly framed together c. A building fitly framed together is but one Congregation But the Church of Ephesus was a building fitly framed together Therefore c. B. To the Major Not only one single Congregation but many united under one Bishop may be so called And that Ephesus was not a single Independent Congregation but a
Divinity I remember you read Dr. Prideaux Lectures De Absoluto Decreto c. when you were but a Fresh-man He is now admonished to study his Antecessor at Tewksbury Mr. Geeres Book against Separation entituled Vindiciae Ecclesiae Anglicanae Another of the Opponents Mr. Tr. asked the Respondent whether he did not Preach before he was Ordained Yes said he once or twice in this Church above twenty years since being Mr of Arts and after that Tryall of my self I entred into Orders Your men do not so See Grotius of Authority pag. 181. Mr. W. At the mention of Christmas was startled and cried Popery Mr. B. Answered there is no hurt in the Word and for the Thing the keeping of that and other Christian Festivalls we commend the sober Christian to the Resolution of the sixt Quaere by the eminent Dr. Hammond Where the Respondent distinguisheth of Bishops as Lords as Fathers he would not have the Reader suspect him as if he envied any temporall Honour or Riches to the Fathers of the Church For who knew how to abound so well as They The good works of the Bishops of England would make a fair volume which perhaps some body will collect Our Mother Oxford especially cannot forget how magnificent Founders and Benefactors she hath had of this sacred Order One of the Opponents about admission of people to the Sacrament urged that proverbiall speech of Christ Matth. 7. 16. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles No said the Respondent while they continue such but on their Conversion they may For the true sense of that place hear the Divine Paraphrast By their fruits ye shall know them Ye shall certainly know them and discern them if you take notice of and weigh the doctrins which when they have gotten some Authority with you they will presently endeavour to infuse into you They that make no other use of their being counted Prophets but to infuse higher degrees of all kind of piety and charity into you ye may resolve they are sent from God For the Devill would never help men to credit and reputation in the world who should make use of it only to the advancement of piety But if their designs be to infuse into their followers any seeds of impiety injustice uncleanness uncharitableness sedition rebellion c. Let their pretences and behaviour be never so fair be sure they are false Prophets When it was said by the Respondent that Christ died for all men one Cr. a disciple of Mr. H. was heard to say Then it seems Christ dyed for the Devills and all nor considering that Divine Text to the Hebrews 2. 16. For verily he took not on him the nature of Angels but he took on him the seed of Abraham Where the Paraphrast judiciously as his manner is amending the Translation saith For t is not said any where that he catches hold of Angels as they are falling or running or carried captive from him to save or rescue them from ruine or to bring them out of captivity but only to men doth he this favour peculiarly To his Congregation at Sudeley-Castle ANd now Beloved I end with a Request to you in Saint Peter's words Giving all diligence adde to your Faith Vertue and to your Vertue Knowledge and to Knowledge Temperance and to Temperance Patience and to Patience Godliness and to Godliness Brotherly-kindness and to Brotherly-kindness Charity For if these things be in you abound the greatest objection of our Opponents will be then fully answered if it be not yet Let no man suffer sin upon his Brother but let us exhort and admonish one another lovingly and faithfully and let the most knowing and Zealous among you assist the Minister in the discharge of his duty that no open and notorious liver may presume to come with us to the Holy Table Let us pray for a setled Publick Discipline but in the mean let us settle our selves and keep as good order as we can Let us shew the sincerity of our Religion by our mutuall Love and by our Meekness and Charity to our Enemyes and Calumniators Let us evidence our having the Spirit not by bold intrusion into offices not committed to us but by bringing forth the fruits of the Spirit Love Joy Peace Long-suffering and the rest Finally let us not be weary of Welldoing but go on in every good Work with courage and alacrity with our eyes fixed upon Heaven so shall the mouth of the Adversary be stopped and the Lord shall open our lips and our mouth shall shew forth his praise Amen Your Servant for Christs sake C. B. Scripsi 23. Novem. die St. Clementis natali meo 45. An. Ch. 1653. N. N. To the Reader CHristian Reader Know that after the Disputation ended between two and three in the Afternoon Mr. B. and Mr. To. retired to their Inn whither the Baylifs and Churchwardens and some other honest men of the Town came to them and gave them thanks The next morning was deliver'd to a Servant of the Parish a Paper to be presented to Mr. H. and published declaring that some Neighbouring Ministers would be ready by Gods help on the Monday following to make good in the same place against Mr. H. and his brethren this necessary Truth which they deny That parish-Parish-Churches of England are the true Churches of Jesus Christ They came but could not prevail with Mr. H. to come forth to Answer Wherefore after some little conference with him at his own house with the Account whereof I shall not now detein you Mr. B. departed and Preacht at Sudeley concluding with an exhortation to Peace and Unity and with an earnest Request to the Congregation that they would give no offence neither by word nor deed to the other party When the Account of the former Dispute was come down Mr. B. sent two Copies one to Mr. H. another to Mr. W. enclosed in these Letters which being come unto my hand I think fit not to conceal and shall adde unto them some other since to the end you may the better understand the Temper of the Author and in what condition he is at this present December 17. 1653. Master Helm HAd you hearkned unto me and embraced my motion for a private conference both you and I had saved some trouble but since the matter is come thus far I intreat you to peruse the account with judgement and let me receive from you any thing that may serve for the perfecting of it I have not wronged you nor do I remember any greater provocation in my former Letters but that I once said Your simple Disciples which word I have cause to retract finding by experience that they have much more of the Serpent than of the Dove From them I suppose rather than from your self is a tempest a raising against me in the Higher Region The opinion I have had of your Moderation and Ingenuity yea and some degree of friendship with you formerly enclines me
to hope that by your discretion all may be calmed However being not conscious to my self of any evill Doing either against private or publick persons I do securely wait for the Event I am enemy to no man that 's my Religion They that make it a part of their Religion to persecute Dissenters must take heed lest at their great peril they do good to those they malign for that Good will accrew to those that suffer for the Truth is out of question with Your Servant C. B. Decem. 9. Master Wells IF so high a comparison may be used it may be said of us as it was of two great Romans by the Historian They learned in the same that which in contrary camps they practized You and I were collegues in our Youth and lately had some clashing But Sir I wish you to use no carnal weapons for I am informed there is some intent of force to be offered me Forbear I pray and take off any such prosecution Let us proceed in debate of what is in controversy if you please to proceed without any other arms but such as become Scholars and Divines that is reasons and Arguments You shall find me I assure you on the word of a Christian very willing to yield to any thing I cannot answer Read the enclosed as if you were not a party but a judge and remember the conclusion in Minutius Faelix if you cannot forget you are a party Tu victor mei ego erroris Do not disdain to write your mind to your old acquaintance and Countryman and if you permit Loving friend still Cl. Barksdale Decem. 9. To the Right Worshipful Richard Aylworth Esquire and to the rest of the worthy Justices met at Winchcomb Decem. 17. 1653. Noble Sir TO you I address my self and by you to the rest of the worthy Justices present with you protesting my readiness to wait on you and to be obedient to the present Governours in all lawful things and namely in using or not using the Book of Common Prayer I am ready to use it if it be permitted as I suppose it is by Order of the Council of State November 12. last and I am ready †Never with contempt to lay it aside if they require it to be laid aside For I never thought it the only way of serving God I have done nothing in contempt of any Act or Ordinance of State I have ever Preacht Obedience to Superiours Nor do I desire to live any longer than I may be a profitable Member of this Common-wealth in my little sphear And you will be so tender I hope of the Honour of publick Justice as not to condemn such a man unheard Let not Christian Gentlemen and Englishmen be less equal than Pagan Romans You will in your piety and wisdom I hope give a check to the violence of my Accusers whose Religion is Revenge You will in your Charity and Goodness endeavour so far as lawfully you may the preservation of Gods Servant and your poor Friend Cl. Barksdale Decem. 17. 1653. To Master William Towers Decem. 17. 1653. Dear Sir AS God hath vouchsafed us the honour to appear for some Great Truths in our Religion so it seemeth by the Justices proceeding at Winchcomb we shall have this second honour to suffer for them Te Deum laudamus I have sent them a Letter this morn to put them in mind of the manner of the Romans I hope 't will not seem to them Antichristian not to condemn men unheard I do not find in my self any fear of them Though I cannot say as the good Archbishop Whitgift said He had two things to give him courage against his potent Adversaries Orbitatem Senectutem being in the midst of my Course and being call'd Father by six little motherless children Yet I can say Si Deus nobiscum and take courage enough from the Cause If all the world oppose it Truth is Truth and God is Truth To whose Grace and protection I commend us and all ours Your assured friend and Brother C. B. C. B. to D. W. December 19. 53. SIR It is very true that I told you the first draught of that dispute was the work but of one day while the memory of it was fresh and the carefull observer is no other than the Respondent himself who is not ashamed to own as well the penning as the publishing of it My worthy friend that stood in subsidiis if he hath noted any considerable Defect in it may do well as I requested him to send me his supplement But the setting down an Enthymen for a Syllogism and the omission of little matters on the by I conceive is no very considerable want Indeed there was a passage between him and the opponents concerning the Institution of the Sacrament which because I found not the particulars in my frail memory I mentioned not Now Sir for the proceeding against me at Winchcomb the last week which together with a very frivolous report about the D. of Y. in the inquiry whereof methinks the Religion of an oath was made cheap was the business of the three Justices I must tell you what good people say That the new-saints there discover what they are by their pride and spightfulness That they procured warrant to fetch in some of my neighbours to swear against me for using the Common-Prayer-Book who are not so Book-learned that they can well tell when I use it when not That they some of them gave this false evidence that on the Monday sollowing the Dispute when Mr. Helme would not appear I had drawn to the Church a company you were one of lewd persons That the Justices have not obliged me by any humanity or charity toward me suffering me to be accused by such fellowes in my absence that But no more of this now To conclude this scribble I would have all know that I do forgive my Adversaries whom I have assayed to cool by kind letters and that I do not fear them that I am well affected to all Goverment by which I am protected and that I am so well opinioned of the present Governor that I believe he will at least tolerate that Religion wherein himself as well as we were once baptiz'd C. B. to Mr. G. December 24. 1653. SIR I have seriously considered both what you writ to me and what you said You said Let Ministers preach at home and take heed of Meetings It is good to be wise and wary but to omit the means and opportunity of doing good in our Callings even when there is some shew of perill to our selves I doubt will argue rather a timorous deserting of our Cause than a prudent wariness Ministers must not only labour single and in their own Cures but by a brotherly union and mutual assistance advance the work of their Master and procure the peace of the Church When so many unlearned new Teachers both single and united shew such zeal to make proselytes shall we that