was decreed and donne was ascribed to Caesar Bibulus was a Cypher So whatsoeuer interpretation the RomaÌ„ churche that is the Pope geueth that must be intertayued the fathers sett behinde the dore This your Cardinall that was present at the counsell vnder Pius the fowerth telleth vs. Whatsoeuer the churche teacheth vs is the expresse worde of God whatsoeuer is taught contrarie to the sence and sentence of the churche is the expresse worde of the diuell CHAMP I maruell whither you will wander at lenght what is all this to the tryinge whether you or we haue the true sence of the scriptures The councell of Trent decreeth expreslie that which you seeme to approoue and yett you are not content with it your example of Caesar and Bibulus in a grammer scholler had been tollerable but in a D. of diuinitie it is too ridiculous And if you dislike the doctrine which you ascribe to Cardinal Hosius why doe you onlie mumble and grumble att it with in your teeth without disproouinge it either by scriptures or fathers But your malice will not permitt you to imbrace the truth nor your courage or strenght serue you to impugne it PILK And another more auncient then he It is no maruelle if the practise of the churche at one tyme interprett the scriptures after this manner and another after that for the vnderstandinge runneth with the practice for that sence which is concurrent with the practice is the quickinge spiritt therefore the scriptures followe church not conuertiblie If then the sentence of the Fathers ruÌ„ne not with the moderne Roman church they are not the messengers of God but in this manes opinion instruments of the diuell CHAMP You still wander out of the way and stray from your purpose But I will yett folowe you thoughe not without some patience Cusanus speaketh expresslie of the vse or sece of scriptures so farr as they pertaine to the rite order or manner of administring the Sacraments and namelie of Communion vnder one or both kindes which rites or Ceremonies because they may be diuerse and changeable without anie preiudice either to the nature of the Sacraments or to the veritie of holy scripture as indeede they are at this day different in the Greeke and Latin church the one consecratinge the holy Eucharist in leauened bredd the other in vnleauened and yett neither of them contrarie to the scriptures they may be altered and changed accordinge as the wisdome of gods churche seeth iust occasion and yett accordinge to the sence and meaning of the holy scriptures which to the churche is neuer vnknowne and this is Cusanus his plaine doctrine which you could not haue been ignorant of if you had read him yourselfe But it is your good nature to make alwaies the worst sence of your authors to deceaue your reader thereby For he speaketh not of scriptures so farr as they containe articles of faith which euer are the same but as they appertaine to matters of practice which may be different accordinge to the diuersitie of circumstances occurringe In settinge downe his wordes you vse your accustomed arte and fraude For his wordes where vppon you would make your cheefe aduantage are these Therefore the scriptures followe the church which was before them and for which the scriptures are not contrarie That is the churche is not for the scriptures Whereas you leauing out some parte of his speache make his wordes to sound that the sence and meaninge of the scriptures followe the vnderstandinge of the churche and not the vnderstandinge of the churche the sence of scriptures but might be contrarie vnto it which neither he nor anie other catholick man euer dreamed of PILK And in verie deed thoughe the Pope hath deuised a solemne oath whereunto your prosessours are sworne that they shall admitte of the holy scriptures accordinge to that sence which the holy mother the churche holdeth and they shall not at anie tyme take or interprett them but accordinge to the vnanimous consent of the fathers yett it is manifest that they doe not onlie leaue the sence which the fathers followe but followe that which noe father within 500. yeres after Christ did euer dreame of CHAMP Seinge the councell of Trent hath decreed as you say and the Pope hath appointed an othe to binde men to followe the sence of the scriptures deliuered by the church and consent of the fathers you haue small reason to say it is manifest that catholikes doe leaue that sence without some manifest proofe of your assertion which I will expect and exact of you vnder paine to esteeme you a rashe and slaunderous impostour In the meane tyme whilst you performe this taske you may for your erudition vnderstand that it is one thinge to giue an interpretation of a place of scripture which the fathers haue not geuen before and another to interprete it contrarie to the vniforme Consent of fathers The churche of god beinge no lesse assisted nowe by the holie ghost which teacheth her all truth accordinge to the infalible promise of our auiour Christe then was the churche within the first 500. yeeres shee is no lesse able to interprete the scripture accordinge to the true meaninge thereof then shee was then yet shee neuer gaâ—e-saith the interpretation of the auncient churche or of the vniforme consent of the holy fathers but lett vs heare howe you prooue your sayinge PILK Your late diuines interpretinge that place there shall be one flocke and one Shephearde forsake the fathers which vnderstande it of Christ and cleaue to the sence of theire mother who will haue it to be the Pope CHAMP Are you a master in Cambridge and knowe not that these two sences may be both true without anie contrarietie neither moderne nor auntient diuines euer vnderstood this place otherwise then of our Sauiour Christ principallie and for himselfe or per excellâ—ntiam But that it is not trulie vnderstood of him to whome he commended his flock which he redeemed as S. Chriâ—ostome saith who therefore is his vicar and vicegerent here in earth and also of his lauful successour in the same charge secondarilie and by participation none but contentious heretikes who will see nothinge in the scriptures contratie to theire errour doe will or canne denie PILK Doe this in remembrance of me that is sacrifice this is nowe the sence of the Roman churche shewe one father that tooke it soe and you shall weare the garland CHAMP Stand to your worde and the garlande will be mine by anie indifferent mans iudgment Heare S. Ireneus who liued aboue 1400. yeres agoe â—uÌ„ qui ex creatura panis est accepit gratias egit dicens Hoc est corpus meuÌ„ caliceÌ„ similiter qui est ex creatura quae est secundum nos suum sanguinem confessus ect noui testamenti nouam docuit oblationcm quam Ecclesia ab Apostoliâ— accipieÌ„s in vniuerso mundo offerâ— Deo When he tooke that which is of the creature bread
vnderstandinge according to scriptures CHAMP I wish with all my hearte thoughe you geue little occasion to hope it that you woulde immitate S. Aug aswell in this particular as in all other thinges then woulde you with all humilitie and reuerence receiue and acknowledge the authoritie of the churche in the interpretation of the scriptures and not diabolicallie bragge of the brauenes of your spirits that dare contemne the same Hearken I pray you vnto S. Aug wordes to Cresconius in the same chapter cited by you which seeinge you take noe notice of it is an euident argument you haue noe greate desire to learne anie thinge of him but to see if you canne picke anie thinge out of him for your purpose which is to impugne him and the rest of the fathers His wordes are these which may as properlie be vsed to you as he vsed them to Cresconius Put your selfe saith he in the churche which it is manifest S. Cyprian defended and then may you alleage S. Cyprians authoritie for your doctrine The same I say to you concerninge S. Aug example thoughe you came neerer the imitatinge thereof theÌ„ you doe You say you followe the direction of the priests and leuits in expoundinge scriptures I finde nothing att all in the place quoted by you warrantinge your vsage of scriptures But were it as you thinke you must first prooue your selues to be priests or leuits before you can take vppon you the charge of priests and leuits in expoundinge the scriptures How would you answere that olde question put vnto such as you are well nighe 1400. yeares a goe Vnde vemtts quid in meo â—acitis non mei or if you will take vppon you as priests and leuits to expounde the scriptures beinge noe such men those that desire not to be deceaued will reiect your expositions as false and pernitious PILK And thus the fathers teache vs as whatsoeuer golde is without the temple is not sanctified so whatsoeuer sence is without the scriptures althoughe to some it seeme wounderfull yet is not holy because it is not contained in the scriptures The scripture expoundeth her selfe and suffereth not the hearers to erre saith Chrisostome He is the best reader sayth Hyllarie that expecteth rather the vnderstandinge of the wordes from the wordes themselues then imposeth it vppon them CHAMP The sence of the churche is neuer without the scriptures as the sence of all heretikes is which impugne the churche and if the scriptures permitt not the hearer to err as you say in vaine are your expositions euerie hearer beinge aswell able to vnderstande them as you ministers You said not longe since that there are manie obscurities in the scriptures and are they nowe so cleare that they permitte not the hearer to err Doe you not see what absurdities you runne into whilst you wrangle against the euident truth And who I pray you is more like to take the sence of the scriptures from the wordes themselues and not to impose it vppon them as you say out of S. Hillarie then the catholicke churche assisted to that end by the holy ghost PILK To conclude this pointe sith the fathers often roue att the sence of the scriptures vnderstandinge that literallie which is meant spiritually and contrariwise as your owne Bellarmine may informe you you shoulde haue donne well to haue followed the direction of your owne Canon lawe you must not froÌ„ without scriptures seeke a forrayne and straunge sence that so you may confirme it with authoritie of the text as you can but of the scriptures themselues you must receiue the meaninge of the truth CHAMP If the fathers roue at the sence of the scriptures which saucie and vnseemlie terme you falslie father vppon Bellarmine what shall I thinke you will doe Hitt the marke directlie what sencelesnes would that be to thinke that men impugninge violentlie the church which the scriptures testifie to be pillar of truth should be true interpreters of scriptures Knowe you therefore that whilst followe the fathers interpretations of the scriptures which they either receiue from the churche or is approoued and not approoued and not gainsayde by the churche I seekâ— not the sence of the scriptures from without them but in them by them and most conformablie to them and so I followe punctuallie the direction of the Canon Lawe as you aduise me maruellinge not a little that you should geue so good counsell to another and followe it so little your selfe And nowe Iudicious reader woulde I intreate thee to turne ouer a fewe leaues backwarde and take reuiewe of the short section of the manuall sett downe as it is in Mr. Pilkinton and then passe hardlie thy censure of vs both as thou shalt finde cause and ground And particular note I woulde haue thee to take howe pertinentlie and directlie he impugneth that which hâ— affirms 〈…〉 and effectuallie prooueth that which I woulde haue thee obserue thoroughe ouâ— whole dispute MANVALL SECTIO 4. Thirdlie that I expect and exact of him or them that shall goe aboute to answere this teatise the same round sincere and direct dealinge which I haue here vsed Remembringe before all thinges that he sett downe his faith in direct positions and proceed in like methode as I haue donne for the rest To whom I willinglie graunt this large libertie aboue that which I haue vsed that he tye not himselfe vnto the first 500. yeres after Christ for the fathers interpretations but that he take bouldlie 1500. yeres so that he bringe not condemned heretikes for his authors and with all obserue the pointe followinge PILK You may bouldlie sound the Triumphe before the victorie if you may prescribe your aduersaries howe and what they shall answere you which if any of vs shoulde offer to your side we should presentlie be vpbrayded with fortissimi milites that on noe other condition dare encounter with our enemies except we forbidde them what weapons they would vse and take to our selues what we list Neuerthelesse rather then you shoulde complaine that you are wronged if your desire be not accomplished who carrie in your head Ticonius conceipt quod volumus sanctum est therefore I am content to followe your disorderlie order and for the rest of this paragraph doe as Antonie the oratour did who when he came to a troublesome pointe lapped it vp in silence so on the contrarie for the easines of this to passe by itt and proceede to that which is of greater moment CHAMP It is not onlie lawfull but verie laudable and welbeseeminge for anie man to demande equall conditions of his aduersarie which notwithstandinge I haue spared to doe yeldinge vnto you the libertie of 1500. for onlie 500. yeeres which is in anie indifferent mens iudgment ouer great aduantage For the rest of this section I will imitate your example lettinge it passe in silence For I will not be ashamed to followe you where you goe right MANVALL SECTION 5. Fowerthlie that it
by scripture to acknowledge I say this position to be false which notwithstandinge is one mayne grounde of all theire religion PILK When a souldier that killed Marius came to cutt of his head he drewe out his sworde and told him hie est gladius quem ipse fecisti for Marius formerlie had been a cutter The groundes that you haue layde cutt the throate of your faith but raseth not the skinne of the protestants For I haue shewed before that scriptures doe sufficiently prooue themselues to be the worde of God and these and these bookes to be such whereon it followeth your conuincinge demonstration that protestants beleeue nothinge att all to be a windy friuoulous discourse whereas such conclusions may be drawne from your principles as will prooue vulnera in capite canis you will not easilie licke them hole CHAMP Remoue the sworde first from your owne throate whiâ—hâ—â— presseth to harde and after may you atteÌ„pt to pietie your aduersarie with it You haue hitherto made a 〈…〉 able shewe of anie proofe but of your owne in reâ—lible ignorance and impertinencie ioyned with wilfull stande to deâ—eâ—â—e your reader If you defend your proâ—estaâ—â—s no better then hitherto you â—â—â—ue they will be euidentlie concluded to belieue nothinge att all by the argument proposed which 〈…〉 e you cannott tell where to begin to solue oâ— anâ—weâ—e you make a Thrasonicall and glorious shâ—we of contempt of it as manie of yours 〈◊〉 and 〈…〉 elie your grand maister Calluine when 〈…〉 most prest and hath least to say for himselfe Are you nâ—â— ashamed to lett myne argument stand as a â—â—â—phey against you your heresie without saying one worde in answere of it idlie supposinge that you haue sayde somethinge to it before But seeinge you dare not sett vppon mine argument to satisfi it which you should first haue donne lett vs see what incurable woundes you geue vnto me out of myne owne principles PILK For they that relie theire faith vppon humane testimonies originallie are conuinced to haue no faith att all for faith commeth by hearinge and hearinge by the worde of God But you papists relie your faith vppon humane testimonies originallie when you ground it on the authoritie of the churche which you say is a more vniuersall rule and more auncient then the scriptures Now then make the conclusion as pleaseth you CHAMP I graunte your proposition or maior and deny your minor For where learned you to terme the authoritie of the churche humane testimonie seeinge the holy ghost stileth the churche the house of God the piller and grounde of truth your conclusion therefore is blowne away like a fether So that the wounde which you thought woulde prooue so grieuous is not so much as the blowe of a litle childe Spitt therefore vppon your handes take better hold and strike more manfullie or else geue your bill to another But so hoodewinkt you are either with ignorance or malice that strikinge at your aduersarie you hitt your selfe For whilst you say with S. Paule that faith commeth by hearinge hearinge by the worde of God you prooue that the scripture or the word written which is not hearde but reade is not the first meanes of our saith but the worde of God preached as S. Paule sayth in the same place which was before the scriptures PILK From hence commeth all this warr that we will not grounde our faith vppon the totteringe wall of humane authoritie as you doe but cleaue fast to the sacred scriptures beleeuinge nothinge as Paule taught but that which was written in Moises and the prophetts which we reioyce to haue made the meane grounde of our religion CHAMP A stoute Champion I wisse that after the first blowe and that a verie weake one casteth downe his armes and thinkinge to ouerthrowe his aduersarie with wordes falleth to raylinge as if he hoped to gaine the victorie rather by his stinkinge breath then by strength of hande stroakes You hauing been att the schoole of the father of all falsehoode haue learned to call the churche of God and the infallible authoritie thereof the totteringe wall of humane authoritie which the holy ghoste by the mouth of this Apostle stileth the piller and ground of truth wherby as by manie other passages you shewe what honour and respect you beare vnto the holy scriptures seeinge you dare so disdainfullie debase the house of God which they so highelie prise and extoll You farther glorie in that you beleeue nothinge but which is written in Moises and the prophettes whereby you prooue your selfe to be a Iewe and no Christian Either retract this Iewishe proposition of yours or blotte out of your Bibles the whole newe testament that you may be knowne to be noe Christian and that you may fill vppe the measure of your grande mayster Martin Luther who hath longe since cast out diuers bookes out of the newe testament besides those he hath reiected out of the oulde You seeme to father this your fowle doctrine vppon S. Paule thoughe you dayne him not the honour of S. Paule but why doe you not poynte att the place where he teacheth it If S. Paule had been of this minde that you woulde seeme to make him of in vayne did he write his Epistells in vayne did the rest of the Apostles and Euangelists write theire workes Againe suppose S. Paule had written anie such thinge in his letters or Epistles howe woulde you make anie man beleeue that Epistle to be his and therefore to be canonicall scriptures vnlesse you will vse the authoritie of tradition and the churches testimonie All the witt and cunning you haue yea thoughe you borrowed all that of the rest of the ministers in the worlde will not shape a sufficient answere to this question PILK And which if we coulde not prooue yett canne we not be conuinced to haue noe faith because they are principles against which none dare open his mouth that anie way woulde haue himselfe to be counted a Christian as S. Aug. spake For as other artes and sciences are sufficientlie knowne credited without proofe of theire principles so matters diuine are perfectlie and demonstratiuelie persuaded vnto vs from this indemonstrable principle of the holy scriptures saith Clemens and are not prooued by iudgment but comprehended by faith CHAMP Why doe you say which iâ— we coulde not prooue as thoughe you had some meane to prooue it without traditions and the churches authoritie But they are principle you say and therefore not to be prooued The scriptures are principles of faith in deede in a certayne degree but they are not prime principles which onlie are to be beleeued for themselues without anie further proofe vnles as I toulde you before you will make them to be God who onlie is to be beleeued for his owne proper veritie and all other verities for him And when you say out of S. Aug. that none dare open their mouth against them that will be counted a
poore stuffe that were your cloake doubled with no better lyninge you would feele the winter could noe lesse then if your cloake were simple but lett vs see peraduenture you haue better stuffe behynde PILK That way which Christ and his Apostles tooke to conuince heretikes is a full and direct way but they conuinced them by scripture only The Saduces that were heretikes amongst the Iewes denyinge the resurrection werethus by Christ putt to silence so were the false Apostles that vrged Circumsion by the councell at Hierusalem and thus Apollo confuted the Iewes sheweinge by the scriptures that Iesus was Christe CHAMP These examples of Christe and the Apostles doe clearlie conuince your affirmatiue wherein is our issue to be false For otherwise all these that hearde theÌ„ should haue been conuerted from theire errours which they were not And assuredlie if you take those places of scripture vsed by our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles to be of themselues conuincinge abstractinge from the authoritie of those that vsed theÌ„ you will conuince your selfe to be a madde man and not a doctor of diuinitie The way therfore that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles then vsed and which all the Doctors of gods churche haue euer since exercised to conuince heretikes by scripture is doubtles most conuenient and good which is not in controuersie betweene you and me but onlie whether it be such as by noe false interpretation it may be auoyded deluded or frustrated of the effect which these verie examples brought by you and the experience of all times doe demoÌ„strate to be true against you And this might fullie suffice for that which you add but least you may complaine of your wordes concealed I will sett them downe PILK Lastlie the fathers thus taught that heretickes might be conuinced solelie by the scriptures Take from the heretikes their heathenishe learninge that by scriptures onlie they must prooue theire opinions they cannot stande saith Tertullian See howe nere vnto danger they be that refuse to exercise themselues in scripture for of them onlie the iudgment of this triall must be knowne CHAMP Howe impertinent alwayes you are you shoulde prooue that heretikes may be conuinced by scriptures onlie and you bringe Tertullian to prooue that heretikes cannot prooue theire errouis out of scriptures speakinge of one particular heresie against the resurrectio which article of the resurrectioÌ„ being not to be prooued by naturall discourse but out of scripture onlie therefore those heretickes that neglect to reade them were in daunger to continue in theire errour But if you make anie esteeme of Tertullian his iudgment in this matter see his wordes cited a litle before and iudge your selfe whether he fauour your affirmatiue or my negatiue more PILK Athanasins writinge to Serapion against thâ—se heretikes that taught the holy ghost to be a creature chargeth him to learne onlie these thinges that are in the scriptures For the documents contayned therein aboute this pointe are of theÌ„selues sufficient and doe satisfie S. Aug Chargeth the Donatists to prooue theire churche onlie by the canonicall scriptures and remouinge all other thinges to demonstrate theire churche if they were able not in the wordes and rumors of Affricanes not in the councelles of the Bishops not in the letters of anie disputers not in signes and lyinge miracles because we are forewarned fore-armed against these thinges by the worde of God but in the prescripte of the lawe the predictions of the prophetts in the songes of the psalmes in the voyce of the Shephearde himselfe in the Sermons and labours of the Euangelistes that is in all the canonicall authorities of the holy booke Innocent i. bishoppe of Rome saith that by the sole testimonie of holy scriptures the heresie of Pelagius might be refuted The testimonie of the fathers are infinite in this kinde which to auoyde prolixitie I passe ouer and conclude with that charge of Constantine to the fathers of the Nicene councell where Arrianisine receiued its deathes wounde to satisfie the sheepishe obiection of seelie Legat the bookes of the Euangelists and the Apostles together with oracles of the auncient prophets doe plainlie teach vs what we are to thinke of diuine thinges or as Bellarmine readeth it of the nature of God Therefore layinge a side all contention let vs out of the diuine inspired scriptures take the resolution of these thinges that are in question CHAMP Manie wordes nothinge to the purpose Which of all these testimonies be they trulie related by you which I list not examine because they are nothinge to the purpose or of those infinite others which you more prudentlie omitte then you haue related these say that the heretikes may be so conuinced by onlie scripture that they cannot delude them by anie false interpretation which is our issue as you knowe The charge of Constantine as you ridiculouslie terme it doth sufficientlie euict my cause against you so wiselie you pleade for your selfe and so solidelie you satisfie the obiection of seelie Legat which you esteeminge sheepishe shewe your selfe to be more then a sheepe in not soluinge it for which of all the testimonies out of the bookes of the Euangelists and Apostles or the oracles of the auncient prophets did so conuince the Arriaus that they had not some answere for it not one surelie Therefore all these wordes of yours containe nothinge but an argument of your wilfull obstinacie against an euident truth And therefore to conclude my defence in this issue I will aske you whether you are conuinced of the real persence by these wordes hoc est corpus meum or of the power to remitt sinnes by these quorum remiseritis â—eâ—cata remittuntur eâ—s or of the infallibilitie of the churche by these quae est coâ—umna firmamentum veritatis to omitte the rest if you say you are not conuinced as by your profession I coniecture you will say then I will further aske you what more cleare testimonies of scripture you canne bringe for anie one article of our faith and because I knowe you cannot bringe anie more direct or pregnant I therefore chalenge coniure you euen by the iudgment of your patron of Canterbury whose arbitrement I doe not refuse in this cause either to confesse your selfe conuinced in these points of Catholicke doctrine or to confesse that heretickes cannot be conuinced by onlie scriptures and so shall I gaine mine issue against you Which beinge euicted the note of the Manual remaineth entire and vntouched notwithstandinge all your tedious and prolixe wranglinge against it MANVALL SECTIO 3. Secondlie that thoughe the protestants may alleage texts of holy scripture for the proofe of some poinctes of theire doctrine yett that alone is not sufficient to make it true both because the same poinctes are prooued false by other places of scripture and also for that all heretickes haue euer brought scripture for theire heresie and none more apparant or frequent then the damned and
there appeare a â—arre in the scriptures that some of them are opposed to others as it fell out betweene the auncient Bishoppes and the Arrians betweene the Catholikes and Donatists betweene Pelagians and godlie teachers and nowe betweene you and vs that on both sides they are produced a iudge must be sought for to reconcile them Who is that not a Christian for he is partie on the one side or the other not a pagan he knoweth not the misteries of Christianitie not a Iewe for he is an enemie to Christian Baptisme on Earth there can be founde noe iudgment saith Optatus But why doe we knocke at heauen when we haue in the Gospell his testament for here earthlie thinges may be compared to heauenlie See howe we may come to the true sence not by seekinge vnto the Pope not by restinge vppon determinations of councels not by settinge on Traditions but by flyinge vnto the Testament For as the same Optatus goeth on Christ hath dealt with vs as an earthlie Father who hauinge manie children ruleth them all so longe as he liueth noe testament so longe is necessarie euen so Christ so longe as he was present vppon earth althoughe nowe he be not wantinge gaue in charge vnto the Apostles whatsoeuer for the tyme was necessarie But as an earthlie father feelinge himselfe in the consines of death fearinge after his decease his children will contendâ— and breake peace calleth witnesses and from his dyinge breast draweth his will into lastinge tables and if there fall out anie contention amonge the brethren they goe not to his tombe but seeke his testament and so he that quietly resteth in his tombe speaketh still from the tables as if he were aliue He whose testament we haue is in heauen therefore lett his will be sought for in his gospell as in a testament for these thinges which presentlie yeâ— doe he foresawe that yee would doe CHAMP Because these sayinges of Optatus haue the same meaninge with that of S. Aug which imediatlie followeth it shall there appeare howe litle they serue your turne Here are onlie to be noted these wordes of his On earth there is founde noe iudge By which wordes he excludeth not all iudgment vppon earth for so should he exclude the testament also it selfe but he excludeth all earthlie or humane iudgment as vnfitt and vnable to decide differencies of faith of which sorte the iudgment of the churche is not For shee is the piller and ground of truth perpetuallie assisted by the holy Ghost which teacheth and suggesteth to her all truth PILK S. August runneth the verie same course almost vseth the same wordes as if he had taken them out of Optatus we are brethren saith he why doe we striue our father died not intestate he hath made a testament and so died men doe striue aboute the goods of the dead till the testament be brought foorth when that is brought they yeeld to haue it opened and read the iudge doth hearken the counsellours be silent the crier biddeth peace all the people are attentiue that the wordes of the dead man may be read and heard he lyeth voide of life and feelinge in his graue and his wordes preuaile Christe doth sitt in heauen and is his testament gainsayde open it lett vs reade it we are brethren why doe we striue let our mindes be pacified our father hath not lefte vs without a testament he that made the testament is liuinge for euer he doth heare our wordes he doth knowe his owne worde why doe we striue CHAMP S. Aug by these plaine wordes of the spalme Reminisâ—entur conuertentur ad Dominum omnes fines terrae Et adorabunt in conspectâ— eius vniuersae familiae genti 〈…〉 as by the confessed testament of the father prooueth that the Donatists haue noe right to the inheritance of the churche which they contrarie to the testament of God expressed in the psalme say was onlie in a corner of the world amongst them Who notwithstandinge were not come to that degree of seÌ„clesnes as to say the church was inuisible as the protestants doe Iustlie therefore did S. Aug prouoke the Donatists in this pointe to the tryall of the testament as also the catholikes doe the protestantes in the pointe of the reall presence and diuers others Which tryall notwithstandinge is not sufficient where either scripture is opposed to scripture or it is not agreed vppon which is the scripture it selfe as it happeneth betweene the catholikes and protestants as shall â—ore amplie appeare by and by PILK And S. Ambrose more auncient then both to Gratian the Emperour Beleeue not Emperour our Argument and our disputation let vs aske the Scriptures let vs aske the Apostles let vs aske the Prophets let vs aske Christ what shoulde I adde more let vs aske the Father of whose honour they say they are Iealous CHAMP Sr. you alwaies speake besides the purpose The question betweene you and me is not whether the scriptures vnderstoode in the sence of the church are not sufficient to decide anie controuersie in faith and namelie that whereof S. Amb. disputeth which is not denyed vnto you but whether the scriptures lefte vnto the interpretation of either party contendinge are a sufficient iudge to end all controuersies in faith In which question I defende the negatiue and you the affirmatiue if you will yett contend anie more These testimonies therefore of the fathers aswell of S. Ambrose as those that went before and also that followe are alleaged beside the question and altogether impertinentlie as all the rest of your sayinges for the moste parte are PILK A Gentile cometh and saith I woulde be a Christian but I knowe not which side to cleaue vnto manie dissentions are amonge you and I cannot tell which opinion to holde euerie one saith I speake the truth and the scriptures on both sides are pretended so that I knowe not whom to beleeue To this Chrisostome replyeth trulie this maketh much for vs for well might you be troubled if we should say we rely vppon reason but seeinge we take the scriptures which are so true and playne it will be an easie matter for you to iudge if anie consent vnto them he is a Christian if anie goe against them he is farr from this rule CHAMP This allegation of S. Chrisost is not onlie impertinent as all the rest are but fraudulent and proceedinge of a minde not willinge to finde out the truth but to deceiue the reader For the wordes imediatlie followinge and lefte out by you Mr. Pilkinton propose directlie the question which nowe is in hande and the answere thereof followeth also consequentlie Quid igitur saith S. Chrisost What therefore if he say that the scripture hath in this sort and thou sayest another thinge explicatinge the scriptures otherwise and drawinge theire sence to fauour thee Loe here the question in controuersie betweene Mr. Pilkinton and me Howe doth S. Chrisostome answere it doth he send vs to
before of Legat which instance you can neuer answere not satisfy and which onlie is sufficient if you were not obstinatly peruerse to make you ashamed to maintaine so senceles a Paradox and so euidentlie contradicted by perpetuall experience in all ages Your last shifte or euasioÌ„ of interpretinge scripture by scripture vnles there be some agreement or certaintie of the scripture interpretinge more then of the scripture interpreted which abstractinge from the iudgmeÌ„t of the churche cannot be had is a meere mockerie and like as if a man would measure one peece of veluett the measure whereof is as vncertaine as that of the former And to conclude this section it beinge in question betweene the catholikes and protestants who is to be iudge of controuersies in faith yea the roote and key of all controuersies which beinge ended or decided all the rest would haue easie decision you affirminge the scriptures to be this iudge and pretend to prooue this by scripture as al other thinges to be beleeued you are bounde by your owne doctrine to shewe it out of scripture which when you shall doe we will yeelde vnto you in all the rest of the tontrouersies betweene vs. But seeinge you can neuer doe this why doe you not yeelde to vs shewinge you out of manifest scripture the authoritie of the churche to decide controuersies You say the church is a partie and therefore no competent iudge But this hauinge been the cauill of all condemned heretikes and as truly alleaged by them as by you this plea is no more receiueable in you then in them And tell me I pray you the kinge is he not partie in all pleas of felonie or treason that are brought into his courtes yes verilie And yett none euer yet thought of anie such plea as to appeale from the iudgment geuen in his name and by his soueraigne authoritie in such cases Albeit the iudgments geuen in his courtes are farr froÌ„ beinge so assuredly iuste equitable as are the iudgments of the church which hath the infallible promise of the holy ghostes assistance in her decisions and determinations You are therefore fast taken which way soeuer you turne your selfe and this inference of myne That if there be no other iudge of controuersies besides the scriptures God hath not prouided sufficient meanes to saâ—e mens soules which you say is without coherence doth nessarilie followe vppon that supposition that heretikes and namelie protestants doe produce scriptures in proofe of theire false doctrine as catholikes doe for theire orthodoxe beliefe if there be no other iudge to decide the controuersie but only the scripture which inference you haue laboured but all in vaine to ouerthrowe as the indifferent reader will easilie iudge MANVLL SECTION 6. Fiftlie that whereas before I can prooue anie point of Christian beleife by scriptures I should first by good order prooue that there is an holy scripture and secondlie in what bookes of the Bible it is contayned yet because neither of these two canne be prooued by scriptures vnlesse we beleeue some scripture without proofe therfore that I may prooue these pointes of faith wherein the Romane Catholicke churche doth differ from the protestants by holy scriptures which our aduersaries vrge me vnto I must necessarily to satisfy theire disorderlie desire proceede disorderlie and suppose that for truth without proofe which requireth most to be prooued I say without proofe if no proofe be good but that which is made out of scripture PILK All questions are not to be disputed of saith Aristotle but only those whereof man desireth a reason that is not worthie of punishment or lacketh sence For if anie demaunde whether God is to be worshipped or our parents to be loued he deserueth stripes or whether snowe be white he lacketh sence This question of yours whether the scripture be gods worde tendeth to Atheisme and deserueth punishment rather then answere CHAMP In the precedent question to auoyde the authority of the churches iudgment expreslie testified in the scriptures you laboured to maintaine this paradox that notwithstandinge scriptures were produced for either partie of anie controuersie yett the controuersie might be fullie ended and decided by the scriptures alone without anie other iudge decidinge or determininge whether partie vsed the true sence and meaninge of the same scriptures Nowe in this section to auoyde the Authoritie of TraditioÌ„s expreslie also taught in the scriptures you goe aboute to maintaine another paradox no lesse improbable to witt that it is so clearlie manifest not only that there is a written worde of God or holie scripture but also in what booke it is contayned that to moue question in either tendeth to Atheisme and deserueth punishment rather then answere lett vs see howe you make good this your paradox PILK But least you shoulde triumphe before the victorie I answere that as in all humane artes there be certain principles which are knowne of theÌ„selues without anie farther demoÌ„stration So the verties that are contained in the Cannon of the Bible are the principles foundations of diuinitie and receiue not authoritie by other thinges whereby they may be demonstrated saith Cameracensis CHAMP Ignorance in the rudimeÌ„ts of Philosophie maketh you abuse your tearmes egregiouslie For what principles of artes or sciences I pray you are those that are beleeued for themselues none certainlie For the principles of all naturall knowledge are either euidentlie knowne by the light of nature and not beleeued or they are beleeued for the authoritie of a higher knowledge and not beleeued for themselues The verities contayned in the Bible are beleeued not for themselues but for the authoritie of God reueilinge them who onlie is truth it selfe and beleeued for himselfe of whome and from whome they receiue authoritie and haue it not of themselues as you falselie affirme But you say they cannot be demonstrated by other principles It is true for â—â—â—e but the phreneticall or phanaticall Manicheis did desire or expecte demonstration in matter of faith Which as S. August saith is grounded vppon authoritie as knowledge is vppon reason we demaunde therefore of you some authoritie whereby we may reasonablie beleeue the verities contayned in the Bible to haue been reueiled by God without which authoritie we cannot securelie beleeue them to be gods worde PILK Then if the scriptures be principles as it is confessed on both sides it followeth that they are immediate indemonstrable as al other principles are in theire scieÌ„ces where of they are principles but these more theÌ„ others because they are primae veritatis And as the first good for it selfe is to be loued so the first truth for it selfe is to be beleeued saith Aquinas And therefore it is so farr from beinge requisit to prooue the scriptures that S. Aug. saith they are not to be hearde who shoulde say howe doost thou knowe these bookes to be ministred vnto mankinde by the spiritie of the onlie and most true God for this thinge is
christian I woulde aâ—ke you what you esteeme of your father in reformation Martin Luther whome some of his disciples as you knowe stile the seconde Elias the fifte Euangelist the second or thirde person in heauen after Christe who with a greate troope of his schollers doth not onlie open his mouth to call into question diuers of the Apostles writinges but absolutelie casteth them out of the Canon will you censure him to be noe christian if you doe you shall be a cursed childe of a more cursed father Yea what will you thinke of your selfe and all the rest of your crewe who cast out of the Canon so manie of those bookes which S. Aug. whose authoritie you cite alwayes esteemed to be canonicall scripture See whether you haue not pronounced sentence with your owne mouth against your selfe and condemned your selfe to be noe Christian If you shoulde eate noe bread till you quitt your selfe of this indictment I dare vndertake to finde you bread for sixe pence so longe as you liue Howsoeuer hereby at least it is cleare that the scriptures are not such principles of our faith as beinge not prooued to be written by the holy Ghost may be doubted of and therefore necessarilie require to be sufficientlie prooued before they can be groundes of other articles of our faith WheÌ„ you or anie for you shall solue this argument I shall esteeme you not vnworthy of a doctours cap. S. Aug. hath good reason to say that no Christian dare to open his mouth against the scriptures receiued by the catholicke churche For so shoulde he be worthyly esteemed as a publican and heathen by the testimonie of our Sauiour Christ himselfe And therfore is Luther and Caluine with theire viperous generation worthilie censured as heretikes thoughe they had no other errours but that of reiectinge with obstinacie the canonicall scriptures That which you bringe out of Clemens were it as you sett it downe is nothinge to your purpose For we knowe the scriptures to be indemonstrable by reason but yett to be prooued by authoritie as all other articles of fayth are And nowe looke ouer once more your cardes and weigh well with your selfe whether this proposition admitted for true which is one of your principles That nothinge is to be beleeued that is not prooued by scriptures whether I say the Manuall doth not directlie conuince the protestants who professe that they cannot prooue the scriptures to be scriptures to beleeue nothinge at all MANVALL SECTION 9. But nowe hauinge shewed the absurditie of theire doctrine in this point I will ioyne with them in the scriptures as they themselues doe desire obseruinge this methode First I sett downe the Catholicke Romane beleefe in direct and plaine positions then I bringe in proofe of it one two or more places of holy scriptures citinge the auncient vulgar translation and often tymes I add the testimonie of some auncieÌ„t father of the first fiue hundreth yeeres vnderstandinge such scriptures as I cite in the same sence and meaninge that I cite them for Furthermore those fewe places of scripture which seeme to sounde directlie against the catholicke faith I shewe in breefe howe they are to be vnderstoode And last of all I putt downe the position contradictorie to the Catholicke doctrine to the end that the indifferent reader be he catholicke or otherwise may more easily iudge whether doctrine hath better grounde in holy scriptures And further that he that will impugne this treatise may see what he hath to prooue if he will prooue anie thinge to purpose PILK Zebull iudged men to be shadowes of mountaines and you Christian verities nouell absurdities But as Nicomachus the painter answered a skilfull felowe that iudged the picture of Helen drawne by Zeuxes not to be beautifull take myne eyes saith he thou wilt thâ—nke her to be a goddesse So if you looke with spiritual eies you woulde easilie conceiue them to be diuine verities which you imagine to be palbable absurdities For lacke whereof you proceede to beate your aduersaries with theire owne weapons of holy scriptures and you tell them howe you will marshall your forces CHAMP Zebull if you say true imagined men to be shaddowes and you contrariwise imagine shaddowes to be men I doubt not but if I shoulde take your eies to looke vppon your worke I shoulde thinke as you doe a â—rogge to be as faire as Diana You say I proceede to beate my aduersaries with their owne weapons But the scriptures are not mine aduersaries weapons but as they steale them to impugne the truth with as theeues doe true mens weapons PILK First you will sett downe your saith in direct positions and that you haue donne as streight as a Rams horne CHAMP Marke you the crookednes and discouerit that others may see it besides your selfe PILK Secondly you will prooue it by holy scriptures which you cite to as good purpose as the deuill did against Christ. CHAMP Note you the impertinencies when they occurre and discouer them that other men may see them as well as your selfe PILK Thirdlie you will produce them in the auncient vulgar translation no maruell for that hangeth betweene the greeke and the Hebrue as Christ did betweene the two theeues in your friendes opinion whereas it hath been the Cameryne that hath vented from it manie of your errours Hence you haue marriage to be a Sacrament because your translation readeth magnum hoc SacramentuÌ„ and in greeke it is Mysterion Hence almes to be meritorious because huiusmodi sacrificijs promeritur Deus and in the greeke it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hence definitions of councels to proceede froÌ„ the holy ghost because in this corrupte false version it is read the holy spiritt shall suggest vnto you all thinges that I will say whereas it is in the originall that I haue sayde Infinite almost are the additions detractions deprauations wherewith this sweet translation of yours hath corrupted the fountaynes That Isodore Clarius woundered at the negligence of learned men that haue not purged it from these inumerable errours wherewith it swarmeth and wherein himselfe had obserued and rectified eight thousande places and yett this is the apparrell wherein you will sett before vs the holy scriptures CHAMP Take you here the counsell the painter gaue to the vnskilfull censurer of Zeuxis worke which you spake of not farr before and looke vppon the vulgar translation with S. Ambrose S. Aug. S Hierome and S. Gregories eyes with the rest of all the Latine fathers who liued a thousande yeeres before your heresie was hatched whose iudgments are of more authoritie then manie Clarius and you will finde it to be intire perfect and good Your exceptions against it with manie moe are alreadie answered by Bellarmine which answeres shall stande for good till you confute them This is all your learning to repeate olde ouerworne obiections and to conceale their answeres a greate peece of witt I wisse PILK Fowerthlie you will adde the testimonie of some
which two distinct natures there be two wills and two operations as S. Luke sheweth not my will but thy will be doÌ„ne For he that hath two perfect natures must needes haue theire natural properties operations but to wil worke are natural proprieties operations followinge both natures in Christ therfore he had two willes and two operations All which places are vrged by the auncient Fathers and late writers protestants and papists to confirme these seuerall points in so much that you are forced to graunt that they haue a true proofe from the holy scriptures And then I may say as S. August saith to Maximian the Arrian Si vox ista vera est quaestio illa finita est But you papists haue nimbler witts then the fathers for you are not content with truth but you must haue full proofe as thoughe that proofe which to a man is true were not full For there can be noe fuller proofe then that which doth conuince and satisfie the vnderstandinge but a true proofe doth so For what is truth but adaequatio rei intellectus And yett if there be anie difference betweene true full these articles are fullie concluded out of the scripture For beinge articles of the Apostolicke creede they are plainlie sett downe as Bellarmine confesseth out of S. Aug. And some of them questioned by the Arrians as the consubstantialitie of the sonne which in the next place you except against he saith that of these questions which then were moued clarissima extabant in scripturis testimonia quae sine dubio antepÌ„onenda sunt omnibus conciliorum testimonijs These thinges then that haue most cleare testimonies out of scriptures and to be preferred before all testimonies of councells haue a full proofe from them but such are some of these articles yett you proceede to fight against scriptures and wringe from Christians one of the strongest Bulwarkes they haue against Arrians I and the consubstantialitie of the sonne because the Arrians interpreted it of vnitie of concorde and will But if the mist of poperie had not blinded your eyes you might easily haue seen vnanswerable arguments out of the text to prooue the sonne consubstantiall to the father and so to be vnderstoode of the vnitie of substance For the Iewes require him to tell them plainely whether he be that Christ he answereth directlie he is there fore the naturall and consubstantiall sonne of God as he prooueth Matt. 22. 45. out of the Psalme 100. If then Dauid called him Lorde howe is he then his sonne Secondlie he that geueth eternall life to his sheepe so that none can take them out of his hande is of the same power and consequentlie of the same nature with God For what is it to be God but to be of the highest and greatest power then which none greater but the sonne doth soe ver 28. 29. And I geue vnto them eternall life and they shall neuer perish neither shall anie plucke them out of myne hande Thirdlie the Iewes tooke vppe stones to stone him as a blasphemer as one that made himselfe God this cause they sett downe in plaine termes verse 33. Because thou makest thy selfe God beinge man but it is no blasphemie to be of the like will desire and affection with God playne therefore it is by Christs argument that he did preache God so to be his Father as the Iewes vnderstoode he would haue himselfe the naturall sonne of God See nowe excepte you be blinder theÌ„ the Iewes how plentifullie this scripture prooueth the consubstaÌ„tialitie of the sonne and as for the place of Io. 17. it helpeth not the Arrians at all as S. Aug. sheweth to Pascentius the Arrian For that wheresoeuer the scripture speaketh of two that are one as in this place they are euer of one substance And therfore he chargeth both Maximianus theire Bishoppe and Pascentius a noble man of theire opinion to trauers the scriptures if anie where they coulde shew two sayde to be one that are not one in substance But lett this be graunted that I and the Father are one prooueth onlie vnitie of will not of substance is there not an armie of scriptures besides this to prooue the sonne of the same substance that we neede not call in the authoritie of the churche CHAMP You haue bestowed all this labour moste idlie goinge aboute to prooue to me that these articles are true and to haue true grounde in the scriptures which no catholicke euer doubted of That which you shoulde haue laboured in if you woulde haue spoken to the purpose is that these articles haue so full proofe out of scriptures onlie that an heretike might be conuinced thereby without iudgment and interpretation of the churche vppon the same places Which is euidently prooued to be false by the many and diuerse heresies which haue been maintayned against all these articles For the authors thereof hereticallie refusinge the vnderstandinge of the church vppon those places of scriptures and diuers others as you also doe in the places condemninge your heresies and followinge wilfullie theire owne iudgment therein as you in like manner doe coulde not be conuinced of theire errours but interpreted these places and all others brought against them in such sorte as they made not against them att all And as for the particuler authorities proouing diuers of these articles consulte with your Grand Maister Caluin and see what weight he putâ—eth in them for the proofe of the sayde misteries Or if you like not to turne his bookes read the litle booke written by Egidius Hunnius a professed protestant intituled Caluinus Iudaizans and you shall see whether he was conuinced in these articles by all the passages of holy scripture alleaged for that purpose Yett would I not haue you to thinke that I approoue his wicked doctrine herein which I detest as most hereticall but onlie produce him as an irreprooueable instance of my position Therefore all the longe lose and imperfect discourse which you haue made in this paragraffe wherein are manie paralogismes and impertinencies so farr as it prooueth anie thinge prooueth Caluin to haue been a wicked miscreant but prooueth nothinge against my position which denieth not these verities to haue most true ground in holy scripture according to the true sence and meaninge thereof but not in such sorte as the euidence thereof cannot be auoyded by an heretike And you your selfe that wrangle so much heere against all experience as well of the present as all precedent ages will not acknowledge the catholike positions nowe in controuersie prooued by more or at least by as plaine and expresse scripture as these are to be sufficientlie prooued So that I neede seeke no further confirmation of my position then the experience of your owne peruersitie PILK Yea to stoppe your mouth I add that S. Aug. doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the church in his polemicall bookes against the Arrian Bishopp in two seuerall councells the one of Nice the
other of Arriminum the former of which had ratified the consubstantialitie of the sonne and the other reuoked it and tyeth both himselfe and the Arrian onlie to the scriptures as knowinge this pointe of faith fullie to be prooued of them CHAMP Your mouth meriteth well the stopinge that doth so farr and fowlie ouerflowe as to say that S. Aug doth euidentlie except against the authoritie of the churche What haue you so soone forgott that he protested he would not beleeue the go pell but that the authoritie of the churche moued him you haue be like some as euident and expresse wordes of his exception against the churche authoritie as this is for it or else your assertion is moste shameles let vs here I pray you what he saith PILK Neither ought I saith S. Aug. to vrge the councell of Nice nor thou that of Arriminum I am not tyed to the authoritie of the one nor thou of the other but out of the scriptures that are not parties but common witnesses vnto vs both lett matter to matter cause to cause reason to reason be indifferentlie opposed CHAMP Howe willinglie you deceiue your selfe and wilfullie labour to deceiue others I must needes thinke that it is malice or peruersitie not ignorance that maketh you abuse this place of S Aug who hauing sayde that the worde â—omoâ—sion beinge by the catholike fathers in the councell of Nice by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie established was after in the councell of Arriminum vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius by the fraude of a fewe disliked but afterwardes acknowledged he cometh to say But nowe neither I ought to vse the authoritie of the councell of Nice nor thou of the counsell of Arriminum but such testimonie of scripture as are common to both Where S. Aug. is as farr from exceptinge against the authoritie of the church in the councell of Nice as I am nowe from exceptinge against the authoritie of the councell of Trent in that I doe not vse it against you but am content to deale with you by the scriptures which beinge receiued by vs both are irreproueable witnesses In this therefore noe other sorte doth S. August omitte to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Nice against his aduersarie Maximian the Arrian and tye himselfe to the scriptures then I doe nowe tye my selfe to the scriptures omitting to vrge the authoritie of the councell of Trent against you a protestant And tell me I pray you did S. Aug thinke you esteeme lesse of the Nicen councel then you doe you wil not say it I suppose And doe not you geue vnto it that authority to define matters of faith against heretikes and admitte of the doctrine thereof as orthodoxe and catholike and which ought to be receiued of all christians you will not deny it Why therefore doe you say S. August euidentlie excepteth against the authoritie of the churche because he woulde not tye his aduersarie in that dispute to the authoritie of the Nicene councell which he professeth to haue been decreed by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie But you delight not onlie to err your selfe but also to drawe others into errour with you PILK Where then is your inference that this scripture without the interpretation of the churche doth not fullie prooue the Father and the sonne to be one in substance as if the scriptures before the churches interpretation prooue onlie probable after her interpretation fullie This I gather to be your meaninge because Bellarmine affirmeth from whose haruest you haue gathered these gleaninges that the scriptures expressed by a councell doe firmelie and certainlie prooue that which before they did not firmelie prooue And of S. August he saith that he bringeth certaine coniectures out of scriptures which after the definition of a councell and triall of written traditions haue some force to confirme truth which of themselues ar not sufficient CHAMP My inference standeth good nor is it anie way impeached by S. Aug euen in this place by you alleaged as alreadie appeareth Besides in his booke de vera religione cap. 1. he hath these expresse wordes who is not starke madd and easilie vnderstandeth not that the exposition of scriptures is to be sought from them who professe themselues teachers of the same He meaneth the pastours and doctours of the churche And concerninge this place Ego pater vnum sumus read S. Athanasius his Epistle ad Episcopos Arrianos and see howe they were conuinced with it or if you will not looke so farr make a litle inquirie of Legats answere vnto it That which you say of the scriptures before and after the churches interpretation and likwise of S. Aug out of Bellarmine though I find noe such thinge in the place of Bellar. by you cited in the catholicke sence is true That is the scriptures before the iudgment of the church of the true sence and meaninge thereof make noe full proofe vnto vs of the articles of our faith Not because they receiue anie truthe or force in respect of themselues from the churche they being the infallible worde of God but because they beinge capable of diuerse sences and subiect to be vnderstoode diuerslie as you your selfe will not denie of these fewe and plaine wordes hoc est corpus meum without some authoritie to interprete them the true sence and meaninge of them cannot assuredlie be knowne vnto vs. And therefore hath God placed in his church pastours and doctors to deliuer vnto his people the true meaning of his worde and hath promised to be with them alwayes that to heare them is to heare himselfe PILK Lett this be marked For when we say that the scriptures doe prooue fullie articles of faith we take not away subordinate meanes whereby we may see and learne the fulnes of the scriptures but we exclude all outwarde and aduentitious authoritie to supplie the supposed weaknes in them and to adde strength and firmenes vnto them CHAMP Necessitie and the verie euidence of truth forceth you to confesse some meanes to learne the true ence and meaninge of the scriptures but your owne peruersitie and obstinacy will not permitte you to speak plainlie What doe you I play vnderstande by subordinate meanes which you say you exclude not and what doe you meane by aduentitious authoritie doe you meane the authoritie of the churche so your wordes followinge doe insinuate But shewe you as clearly out of the scripture the authoritie of the churche to be excluded as strange and aduentitious as we will shewe you that it is ratyfied established and commended vnto vs as an vnfallible guide and teacher of truth and then we will geue some creditt to your wordes but till then which will be neuer knowe yee that yee are prooued to contemne scripture and all other authoritie saue onlie your owne foolishe fancie which you make to be iudge of the holy scripture it selfe PILK Which strength the papists say
CHAMP This authoritie is like the rest impertinent to your purpose and rather against you then for you For he that defendeth the authoritie of the churche and these thinges that are taught by her defendeth nothinge from without the bookes of God but he that defendeth the contrarie as you doe doth euidently impugne the gospell S. Hill willeth the Arrian Emperour to heare these thinges that are written of Christ as this he is one with his father and the like and then he should be farr from beleeuinge that which is no where written to witt that he is a creature and inferiour to his father Your cause is most miserable and despicable seeinge it is forced to begge testimonie of such extorted witnesses And nowe I leaue to the iudicious reader be he catholicke or protestant to iudge whether the catholicke positions of this first controuersie sett downe in the Manuall be not both more clearlie expressed and more firmelie and trulie prooued by scripture then the protestant position sett downe by Mr. Pilkinton which is the chiefe issue of our controuersie and dispute And further whether the positions sett downe in the Manuall vnder the title of protestant positions be not truly and iustly ascribed vnto them and more directlie pertayninge to the controuersie heere discussed then the others proposed by him MANVALL The second Controuersie of traditions Catholike position 1. The holy Apostles diliuered by worde of mouth moe thinges to be beleeued obserued by the churche then either they found written or wrote themselues And these thinges are vsuallie called traditions PILK You haue gotten a wolfe by the eare when you fasten on traditions if you lett them goe they carrie with them a great parte of your faith if you holde them fast you shewe you cannot prooue your faith from scriptures For you freelie and plainlie tell vs what your churche meaneth by traditions not interpretation of that which is written but addition and suppliment of that which is not For moe thinges say you are to be beleeued and obserued then either the Apostles wrote or founde written and these are traditions Let the reader marke this for the question here betwixt vs is not of interpretation of scriptures nor of rites and ceremonies that haue correspondence with them which here he carrieth vnder the name of thinges to be obserued but of doctrines and matters of faith which are thinges to be beleeued all which saith he were neuer written in the old testament nor yet in the newe CHAMP You putt me in minde of the fable of the fox that hauinge lost his owne tayle would needes perswade his fellowes to cutt of theires So you beinge out of loue with traditions woulde perswade vs to reiect them also But we are not so soone moued we professe to beleeue diuerse things for traditions sake and that by warrant of scripture whereunto if you did geue so much creditt as you would be thought to doe you woulde also beleeue the same And seing you yeeld alreadie the one halfe of the controuersie to witt traditions of thinges to be obserued for of these thinges you say there is no question betweene vs I will not dispaire to euict the other part of thinges also to be beleeued from you PILK Nowe this is a manifest vntruth For there is not anie article of faith which the Apostles founde not in the scriptures of the prophetts nor which either the euangelists or themselues did not consigne vnto vs in theire writings which thinge any man may finde to be true that will take paines to consider the articles of the Apostolike creede one by one which either haue proofe out of the ould testament or else the Apostles did not double all theire doctrines out of the scriptures Contrary to S. Paules practise acts 26. 22. CHAMP Howe manifest an vntruth it is that the Apostles taught more then either they found written or wrot themselues we shall see in the processe of this controuersie In the meane while I tell you that you affirme boldlie but prooue nothinge And why doe you referr vs to the Apostles creede for proofe of your vniuersall affirmation Is nothinge to be beleeued but that which is therein contayned what find you I pray you in the creede touchinge either the number or the nature of the Sacraments of theire efficacie or necessitie of originall sinne of the fall of the Angells with manie moe articles beleeued by all christians And yett you confirme your proofe farr more absurdlie by supposinge that the Apostles doubled that is your worde where you learned it I knowe not al theire doctrine out of scripture which is the thinge in question and therefore most absurdlie brought for proofe of the same Againe what necessitie had the Apostles to double theire doctrine as you say out of the scriptures Hadd they not authoritie to preach anie thinge but what they founde alreadie in the scriptures What Christian euer dreamed of such doctrine as you haue deliuered here But this was S. Paules practise you say But you are either ignorantlie or wilfullie mistakē and that most grosselie For thoughe S. Paule and the rest of the Apostles preached nothinge contrarie to the doctrine of the old testament but contrariwise shewed howe the auncient prophecies were fulfilled by our Sauiour Christ which S. Paules auditours at Boerea findinge by conferinge his doctrine with the prophets were much confirmed in theire faith yett is it noe where sayd that either he or the rest preached nothinge but that they founde written Neither did this paradoxe euer enter into anie mans heade but Mr. Pilkintons PILK Reade saith Ireneus diligentlie the Gospell which the Apostles haue geuen vs and read also diligentlie the prophetts and you shall finde all the actions and passions of our lorde yea all his doctrine for to be preached your proofes haue as much truth as the Carthaginians faith CHAMP S. Ireneus saith no more but that there is a great and manifest conformitie or agreement betweene the Prophetts and Apostles preachinge and doctrine which as it is most true so is it as much to your purpose as Paules steeple is to Charinge Crosse And whether my proofes or yours haue more affinitie with the Carthaginian faith lett the indifferent reader iudge MANVALL Proofe of the catholike position 1. Hauinge moe thinges to write vnto you I woulde not by paper and Inke For I hope I shall be with you and speake mouth to mouth PILK These well conclude that in this shorte Epistle S. Iohn did not write all the poyntes of faith but that others of the Apostles did not write them he saith not a word What loose reasoninge is this S. Iohn did not write all in these Epistles therefore the rest did not For whatsoeuer is necessarie vnto saluation and of faith though there it be not to be found yet in the writings of the other Apostles it is to be read CHAMP Seeinge I haue by your confession prooued out of the scripture that this Apostle
Apostles did so CHAMP This argument is all moste as wicked as the precedent For if it conclude anie thinge it prooueth the Apostles to haue preached nothinge but S. Iohns gospell And consequentlie all the rest of the newe testament either to be Apocripha or at least not to be anie way necessarie to saluation This man thou seest iudicious reader to be as little a friende to scripture as to traditions seeing to impugne the one he destroyeth the other Is this your sworde Mr. Minister wherewith you would pearce and wounde your aduersary no wise man I thinke but will say it was made to cutt your owne throate with rather then to drawe one droppe of blood of your aduersarie But you will bringe sharper weapons out of the fathers You should remember that the testimonies out of the fathers should be explications of the scriptures cited for the same purpose and not theire single sayinges But lett vs take them as they are PILK Proofe 4. We know not the disposition of our saluation from anie other then from them by whome the ghospell came to vs which first they preached and after by the will of God deliuered it vnto vs in the holy scriptures to be the foundation and pillar of our faith CHAMP This authoritie hath been once or twice satisfied before and it saith not they wrote all they preached but the same doctrine which they preached they writt and not a diuerse or contrarie as some heretikes fabulouslie taught against whome S. Ireneus there writeth and this is the true meaninge of that place as anie one that looketh thereon will easilie see PILK Proofe 5. These thinges are chosen to be written which are sufficient for the saluation of the beleeuers CHAMP This is true and not against the catholike doctrine of traditions For he that beleeueth that which is written beleeueth sufficient for his saluation if he haue not repugnancie in his minde not to beleeue anie more PILK Proofe It is a manifest defection from faith and the crime of pride either for to refuse anie thinge of those that are written or to bringe in that which is not written as our Sauiour Iesus Christe saith my sheepe heare my voyce CHAMP It is an equall crimeÌ„ to denie that which is written and to bringe in anie thinge not written contrarie to that which is written as the Arrians did who made Christe to be a creature different in substance from his father contrarie to that which is written in manie places And this is S. Basills playne doctrine which is nothinge for your purpose nor against me PILK ANTITHESIS 2. The catholike churche ought not to beleeue these traditions which the papists say the Apostles deliuered by worde of mouth onlie in the same degree of faith with these thinges that are written Proofe 1. Esay 8. 20. To the lawe and the testaments if they speake not accordinge to this worde it is because there is no light in them Argument That which speaketh not accordinge to the lawe and testimonie hath no truth and is not to be credited as the lawe But papists traditions are so CHAMP The answere to your argument shall be to returne it vppon you in this manner That which speaketh accordinge to the lawe and testimonie is true and is to be credited as the lawe it selfe But such are catholike traditions Ergo. PILK Proofe Gall. 1. 8. 9. But thoughe we or an Angell from heauen preach anie other gospell vnto you then that which we haue preached lett him be accursed as we sayd before so say I nowe againe if anie man preach anie other gospell vnto you then you haue receiued lett him be accursed Argument That which is not the same but another besides that which Paule preached is not to be credited but accursed But popish traditions are so CHAMP I must needes say that the catholike doctrine shoulde be verie weake indeede if it should be ouerthrowne with such lame and limpinge arguments that haue not so much as one good legge to stand vppon And what shall we say then of the protestants doctrine that is supported by such bean-strawe pillars Your maior were it true woulde conclude all the Apostles writinges besisides S. Paules to be accursed at leaste in all such thingeâ— as are not found in S. Paule Your minor may as easilie be affirmed of S. Iohns Gospell or anie other booke of the bible So that your conclusion is like to be verie protestanticall See therfore howe stronglie you haue prooued your protestant position or antithesis and consequentlie howe deepelie you haue wounded your aduersarie Euer so blinde may the enemies of gods churche be to impugne it in this manner so longe as they doe impugne it PILK Proofe 2. Petri. 1. 18. 19. And this voice which came from heauen we heard when we were with him in the holy Mount We haue also a more sure worde of prophecie whereunto you doe well that you take heede as vnto a light that shineth in a darke place vntill the day dawne and the day-starre arise in your harts Argument That which is more firme and sure then reuelation from heauen not then written is more to be credited then anie thinge nowe not written but the scriptures are such CHAMP Doe you thinke that the writinge of anie reuelation maketh it more firme or that it receiueth anie increase of authoritie thereby you seeme to be of this opinion but it is moste absurde to thinke For the authoritie all reuelations haue is from God almightie and not from the writinge of them in paper or parchment And therefore the prophecie S. Peter speaketh of whether it were written or vnwritten for he saith not it was written but rather the contrarie tearminge it a propheticall speach or sermon is sayde by him to be more firme then the testimonie receiued in the holy mount because that had been auncientlie promulgated credited and receiued whereas this had neuer yett bin preached or proposed to be beleeued and therefore no maruell though that were esteemed more firme then this hitherto hadd been not because this had not been written but because it had not been preached or published att all till that tyme. PILK Proofe Iohn 5. 36. 37. 38. 39. But I haue greater witnes then that of Iohn for the workes which the Father hath geuen me to finishe the same workes that I doe beare witnes of me that the Father hath sent me And the Father himselfe which hath sent me hath borne witnes of me Yee haue neither heard his voice at anie tyme nor seene his shape And yee haue not his worde abidingâ— in you for whome he sent him yee beleeue not Searche the scriptures for in them yee haue eternall life and they are they which testifie of me Argument That which is greater then the testimonie of Iohn is more to be credited then anâ—e thinge not written But the scriptures are greater then the testimonie of Iohn CHAMP The farther you goe the more foolishe and impertinent still you