Moone The Church sometimes shines in the cleare dayes of peace and is by and by over-cast with a cloud of persecution as the same Austin saith The Moone is not alwayes in the Full nor the Church ever in her glorious aspect PA. If your Church were alwayes visible where then was it before Luthers time PRO. I might also aske you Where was a great part of your Religion before the Trent Councell which was but holden about the yeere 1534. Now for our Religion it was for substance and in the affirmative parts and positive grounds thereof the question being not of every accessory and secondary poynt it was I say contained in the Canonicall Scriptures wheras you are driven to seeke yours in the Apocryphall in the Trent Creed the Trent Councell Now ours it was contained in the Apostles Creed explayned in the Nicene and Athanasian confirmed by the first foure generall Councels taught in the undoubted writings of the true ancient and orthodox Fathers of the primative Church justiâ—ied from the tongue and penne of our adversaries witnessed by the confessions of our Martyrs which have suffered for truth and not for treason This is the Evidence of our Religion whereas for proofe of yours in divers poynts you are driven to flie to the bastard Treatises of false Fathers going under the name of Abdias Linus Clemens S. Denys and the like as sometime Perkin Warbek a base fellow feigned himselfe to be King Edward the fourths sonne and for a time went under his name and yet these Knights of the poste must be brought in to depose on your behalfe though others of your side have cashiered them as counterfeits PA. If your Professors were so visible name them PRO. This is no reasonable demaund you have rased our Records conveied our Evidence clapt up our Witnesses and suborned your owne you have for your owne advantage as is already showen by that learned Antiquary of Oxford D. Iames and others and shall God willing appeare in the Centuries following you have I say corrupted Councells Fathers and Scriptures by purging and prohibiting what Authors and in what places you would and now you call us to a tryall of Names PA. Particular men may mis-coat the Fathers but our Church hath not PRO. You have witnesse your expurgatory and prohibitory Indices or Tables whereof since my selfe have of late bin an eye-witnesse and seene divers of them both in the publike and private Libraries in Oxford I will therefore acquaint the Reader with the mysterie thereof When that politike Councel of Trent perceived that howsoever men might bee silenced yet bookes would be blabs and tell truth they devised this course They directed a Commission to a company of Inquisitors residing in severall places and therby gave them power to purge and prohibit all manner of Bookes Humanitie and Divinitie ancient late in such sort as they should think fit Vpon this CoÌ„mission renued as occasion served the Inquisitors set forth their severall expurgatory and prohibitory Indices printed at Rome in Spaine in the Low-countries and elsewhere and in these Tables yet to be seen they set down what books were by theÌ„ forbidden and which to be purged and in what places ought were to bee left out whensoever the Workes should be printed anew for according to their Tables or Corrections books were to be printed afresh Now to make sure worke they got as many of the former Editions of the Fathers workes as they could into their hands and suffered no new Copie to come foorth but through their fingers purged according to their Receit neither feared they that their adversaries would set foorth the large volumes of the Fathers Workes or others having not the meanes to vent their Impressions being forbidden to be sold in Catholike countries By this meanes the Romane Censurers thought to stop all tongues and pennes that none should hereafter speake or write otherwise than the Trent Councell had dictatedâ— and so in time all Evidence should have made for the Romane cause Hereby the Reader may perceive that had their device gone on they would in time by their chopping and changing the writings of the Ancient at their pleasure have rased and defaced whatsoever Evidence had made for us and against themselves But so it pleased God that howsoever they had carried the matter cunningly in secret yet at length all comes out their plot was discovered and their Indices came into the Protestants hands The Index of Antwerpe was discovered by Iunius the Spanish and Portugall was never knowne till the taking of Cales and then it was found by the English PA. Might wee not purge what was naught PRO. Indeed if you had purged or prohibited the lewd writings of wanton Aretine railing Rablais or the like you had done well but under-hand to goe and purge out the wholesome sentences of the Fathers such as were agreeable to the Scriptures thus to purge those good old men till you wrung the very blood and life out of them bewrayeth that you have an ill cause in hand that betakes it selfe to such desperate shifts Neither can you justly say that you have corrected what others marred for it was your side that first kept a tampering with the Fathers Works and corrupted them Francis Iunius reports that hee comming in the yeare 1559 to a familiar friend of his named Lewis Savarius Corrector of a Print at Lâ—yden found him over-looking Saint Ambrose Workes wâ—ich Frâ—llonius was printing whereof when Iunius commended the elegancie of the Letter and Edition the Corrector told him secretly it was of all Editions the worst and drawing out many sheets of now waste paper from under the table told him they had printed those sheetes according to the ancient and authenticke Copies but two Franciscan Fryers had by their authoritie cancelled and rejected them and caused other to bee printed and put in their roomes differing from the truth of all their owne books to the great losse of the Printer and wonder of the Corrector so that had yoâ— prevailed neither olde nor new Greeke nor Latin Fathers nor later Writers had been suffered to speake the truth but eiâ—her like Parraâ—s been taâ—ght to lispe Popery or for ever beeâ— put to silâ—nce The best is the Manuscripts which by Gods providence are still preserved amongst us they mâ—ke for us as D. Iames excellently vers'd in Antiquitie hath showen at large PA. Have â—ee purged ought in the Fathers or Scriptures that was not to bee purged PRO. You have as appeares by these instances following St. Chrysostome in his third Sermon uâ—on Lazarus and elsewhere maintaineth thâ— peâ—spicuitie and plainnesse of the Scripâ—ures saying That in divine Scriptures all necessary things are plaine Hee likewise holdeth that faith onely sufficeth in stead of all saying This one thing I will affirme That faith onely by it seâ—fe saâ—eth In like sort Saint Hierome holds That faith only justifieth that workes doe not justifie that
by the shew of old sacks old bottles old shoes old bread that was mouldie as if they had come a farre off whereas they dwelt but hard by in like sort you put on a visour of antiquity but once search the ground thereof and draw aside this maske and then your tenets appeare to be but noveltie in comparison of primitive antiquity for as Tertullian saith That is true which is first and that false which is later In a word we are no Innovators but Reformers we doe not professe any Religion new made but a religion reformed and refined so that wee may say with the Christian Poet Haec novitas non est novitas sed vera vetustas Relligio et Pietas Patrum instaurata resurgit Quod tua corrupit levitas et nota tuorum Segnities igitur si quis labentia tecta Erigat et sterilem qui mansuefecerit agrum Iudice te damnandus erit It is no novell thing wee preach But such as ancient Fathers teach The truth which former Popes conceal'd Doth now begin to be reveal'd Must he be blamed that repaires The ruin'd Church and weed's out tares And thus have our Reformers done And they for this must be undone It is true then that the good seed was first fowne by the Apostles and fructified in the Church generally for 60. yeares afterwards the Enemie supâ—r-seminavit zizania he resowed the tares which in part were weeded out by Waldo Wickliffe and Husse but more universally and publikely by Luther Calvine and others so that wee have not sowne any tares upon the Churches gleabe land but onely weeded out such as were sowne by others in the dead of the night in the time of ignorance not whilst the Husbandman himselfe slept For hee which keepeth Israel neither slumbereth nor sleepeth but cum dormirent homines whiles men slept that is the overseers of the Vineyard grew carelesse and negligent And thus might tares be sowne though the time and â—eedsman were not knowne for it is confessed by your Trent-â—athers That many things through the fault of times or the negligence and wickednesse of men have seemed to have crept in to the Masse which are repugnant to the dignity of so great a sacrifice and yet they cannot tâ—ll when these abuses crept in nor by whose default And thus by Gods assistance I have finished the taske which I undertooke having named out of good Auâ—hors a Catalogue of such professours as taught for substance as the Church of England doth and withall cleered the Catalogue of our professours from such exceptions as the adversarie hath made against them and in producing this evidence I have as hee speakes in Iob 8.8 enquired of the former ages and made search of their Fathers and have dealt as Ioseph's steward did when he made search for his masters Cup He began at the eldest and left at the youngest and the Cup was found in Benjamin's Sacke Gen. 44.12 we have begun with the former ages passed along the middle and descended unto Benjamin's even to the later ages abutting on Martin Luther's time and have found even with these younger ages the Cup that wee sought for to wit A Protestants Church visible and conspicuous And now having I hope satisfied your demand Where was our Church before Luther I would require the like of you namely to show if you can out of good Authours I will not say any Empire or Kingdome but any Citie Parish or Hamlet within five hundred yeares next after Christ in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to be named maintaining and defending either your Trent Creed in generall or these points of Poperie in speciall to wit 1. That there is a treasurie of Saints Merits and super-abundant satiâ—factions at the Popes disposing 2. That the Laitie are not commanded by Christs Institution to receive the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in both kinds 3. That the publicke Service of God in the Church ought or may be celebrated in an unknowne tongue 4. That private Masses wherein the Priest saith Edite bibite ex hoc omnes eate and drinke ye all of this and yet eateth and drinketh himselfe onely bee according to Christs Institution 5. That popes pardons are requisite or usâ—full to release soules out of purgatorie 6. That extreame unction is a Sacrament properly so called 7. That we may worship God by an Image 8. That the pope cannot erre in matters of Faith Shew us now if you can or any Papist in the world that these points above named which are maine points with you inasmuch as you account the denyers thereof Hereticks shew us I say that they were generally and constantly held for Catholick Church tenets in the first five hundred yeares next after Christ which is the very flower of primitive antiquitie But of these matters since this present conference is enlarged beyond my expectation at our next meeting if you please Meane time and ever the Lord of his mercie direct us in his owne wayes In the old way which is the god way as the prophet cals it Ierem. 6.16 and call home such as wilfully or by igâ—orance have gone astray that at length they may be brought to that One Shepherd and that One Sheepe fold of Christ Iesus to whom with his Father and the blessed Spirit be praise for evermore Amen FINIS Approbatio Censoris PErlegi hunc Librum cui titulus The Protestants Evidence c. Quem quonià m doctum judico et in palaestrâ Theologiae versatis utilissimum typis mandari permitto THO WEEKES D. P. D. Episc. Lond. Cap. Domest Genâ—sâ—â— 3.34 Ierem. 6 1â— a Hosea 7.8 b Populaâ— Israel non solum fâ—it infâ—ctuâ— Idololatriâ Ieroboam sed Idololatrijs Gentilium existentiuÌ„ circa populum Israel Lyra in loc Galath 2.9 2 Sam. 3 39. Prov. 27. v. 6. Iudg 14.18 1 Sam. 13.10 * â—ardius enascitur seris umbram factura Nâ—potibus Cupressus a Prot. Apolog. Tract 3. chap. 2. sect 2. p. 330. b Testes res omnes reculae nullam in orbe religionem nisi nostram imis unquam radicibus insedisse Camp rat 10. c Seculis omninò quindecim non oppidum non villam non domum reperiunt imbutam doctrinâ— suâ id rat 3. d Constat manifestè nemineÌ„ toâ—o oâ—be mortalium ante M. Lutherum hoc est anâ—e annuÌ„ 1517 〈◊〉 qui eam fidem tenâ—râ—t Coster Eâ—châ—â—id Coâ—trovers cap. 2. c Bristowes Motivâ—s Presat Motive 45. f Romaniâ—ellarm â—ellarm lib. 3. de Eâ—cleâ— cap. 2. g In Sole id estâ— in maniâ—estatione Aug. tâ—m 7. cont litâ— Petil. l. 2. cap 32. h Soâ—t poâ—uit tabernaâ—alâ—m in eis id est in ciâ—tiâ— Hieâ—on iâ— Psal. 18. to â— i Ecceâ—â—ia non apparebit impiâ—s tunc persecutoâ—ibuâ— vâ—tra modum savientibus Aug. epist. 80. tom 2. k Math. 5.15.16 l Chrysost. in Mathâ— c. 5. hom 10. tom 2. * Montem â—on videâ—â— nâ—lo mireris oculos non habent August tract 1.
Trithemij Epist. Familiar in 1. part opeâ—is Histor. Trithem Francof 1601. Fran. Turrian Denfens Canon Epistol Decretall Lut. 1573. Tyndarus de test extat in tom 4. tract illust juris consult Venet 1584. V. Greg. de Valentia in Sum. Aquinat tom quart Paris 1609. De reb Fidei controvers Lugd. 1591. Laur. Valla de Constantini Donatione in Fascic rer expetendar fugiend Colon. 1535. Gabr. Vasquez Disput. in tert part S. Thom. tom prim Ingolstad 1610. tom 3. Antuerp 1614. In primam Secundae Aquinat tom secundus Ingolstad 1612. Vaux his Catechisme Antwerp 1574. S. Vdalric de Coelibatu Cleri inteâ— monum S. Patr. Orthodoxographa edit per Io. Iac. Gryn Basil. 1569. And. Vega his opuscula de Iustificat Compl. 1564. Ferd. Velosillus his Advertent Theolog. Venet. 1601. B. Victor de persecut Vandalicâ Par. 1569. in tom 7. Biblioth vet Patr. Par. 1589. Hugo de S. Vistore opera in 3 tom Venet. 1588. Blas Viegas his commentar in Apocalyp Lugd. 1602. Nic. Vignier Recueil de l'Histoire de l'eglife A. Leyden 1601. Vincentius Belluacens opera ejus in 4. tom Venet. 1591. Pet. de Vineis lib. 6. Epistolar Ambergae 1609. Polyd. Virgilius de Rerum Inventor Fr. 1599. Vita Bernardi Gilpini per Georg. Carleton Episcop Cicistrens Lond. 1628. Rich. Vitus Basingstoch Histor. lib. 8. Atreb 1597. Io. Ludov. Vivâ—s de Disciplinis Lugd. 1551. Luâ— Vives Scholia in Augustin de Civit. Dei in tom ejus quint Basil. 1569. Iac. de Voragine Sermones 1501. Zachar. Vrsin Catechet explicat Lond. 1596. Conrad à Lichtena Abbas Vrspergensis Chron Paraleipom Fr. 1599. Iac. Vsserius de Christianarum Ecclesiar Successione Statu Lond. 1613. Iac. Vsserij Gotteschalcus Dublin 1631. Veter Epistolar Hibernic Sylloge Dublin 1632. His Answer to the Iesuites Challenge London 1631. Of the Religion professed by the ancient Irish London 1931. His Sermon at Wansted and before the Commons House of Parliament London 1631. W. Walafr Strabo Quaere Strabo Io. Paul Perrin his History of the Waldenses Lond. 1624. Wessembecij oratio de Waldensib extat in Joachimi Camerarij narratione de Fratrum Orthodox ecclesijs in Bohemiâ Heidelbergae 1605. Tho. Waldensis opera Venet. 1571. Tho. Walsingham Histor. Anglor Francof 1602. Wessâ—lus Gronigens de potestate Papae Matâ—ria Indulgentiar Hanov. 1612. Math. Westmonasteriens Flores London 1570. Whitakeri opera Gen. 1610. Fr. White Bp. his Reply to Iesuite Fisher London 1624. The Orthodox Faith London 1617. I. Wiclefs Conformitie with the Church of England by Tho. Iames Oxford 1608. Wiclefs Treatises against Friers published by Tho. Iames and printed according to the ancient Manuscript Copie remaining in the publike Library at Oxford Oxford 1608. Io. Wolfius Lection memorabil Lauvingae 1600. Z. Hieron Zanchij tomus sept Neostad 1605. Io. Zonaras Histor. in tom 3. Gr. Lat. Basil. 1557. FINIS Errata siâ— corrâ—ge In Epist. Ded. pag. 1. lin ult reade antedated pag. 2. lin 16. no râ—so In Praef. ad Lect. pag. 4. lin 2. and speâ—ke r. being to speake In Catal. test in the 5. Age lin 2. dele Andrew Rivet lin 10. B. of Cyrene r. B. of Cyrus or Cyria In the first Alphabet Pag. 7. lin penult r. they practise p. 18. in marg li. 17. r. 1590. pag. 35. lin 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 39. in marg li. 21. cap. r. cont pag. 42. l. 19. other r. the other pag. 55. l. 25. Christ r. God p. â—9 l. 5. learned r. taught pag. 76. lin 12. adde and we truely eat the word flesh pag. 78. l. ult substance r. person pag. 16â— lin 2. haec r. he viz. pag. 182. lin 15. were condemned r. were not condemned pag. 237. lin 2. glorifieth r. glorieth In the second Alphabet Pag. 14. in marg lin 1. nulluum r. nullum p. 31. l. 28. r. by a straine pag. 32. lin 24. dele as pag. 34. lin 31. saith r. hath pag. 51. in marg lin 14. r. sibi ipsi pag. 62. lin 3. r. I used pag. 84. in marg l. 13. r. salvatione pa. 100 in marg l. 8. r. tenuerim pag. 116. l. 14. r. heare pag. 123. l. 31. remaine r. to be abolished pag. 155. liu 29. universall r. easterne pa. 161. lin 13. did r. I did in marg lin 4. xiiij r. xij pag. 197. lin 24. many r. may pag. 204. lin 2. 60. r. 600. pag. 206. lin 1. god r. good The nine Articles of Religion handled in the severall Centuries of this Treatise are these 1 Concerning the Scriptures sufficiencie 2 Of the Scripture Canon 3 Of Communion in both kindes 4 Of the number of Sacraments 5 Concerning the Eucharist 6 Touching Worship of Images 7 Concerning Invocation of Saints departed 8 Of Iustification 9 Of Merits By the way arâ— handled The Popes Supremacie The power of Calling Councills Appeales to Rome Priestes Marriage c. THE PREFACE TO THE PROTESTANTS EVIDENCE PAPIST GOod morrow Neighbour are you going to Church so early PROTESTANT I am Sir and I should bee glad of your company PAP So should I be of yours but I doubt wee goe not to the same Church PRO. I am going to a Protestant Church and I take that to be a true member of the Catholike PAP It is not for the true Church is ever gloriously visible and had visible Professors in all ages but yours was not in being saith Father Brereley untill Luthers dayes and Father Campian calls to witnesse res omnes reculas all things both great and small things and thinglings that never any other Religion but the Catholike tooke any deepe root upon the face of the earth And hee saith further That one cannot spie out so much as one towne one village one house for fifteene hundred yeeres that savoured of your doctrine And Iesuite Coster saith It is manifestly evident that none in the universall world before Luther in the yeere 1517 held that Faith which Luther and Calvins Schollers professed PROT. This is but a vaine â—lourish of the Iesuites and controuled by their owne man Bristow who acknowledgeth that some there have been in many ages in some points of the Protestants opinion Now for our Tenet this it is The Church that is the societie of Christian people professing saving faith is never totally hidden but there bee still some that hold the right faith and deliver it over to others and yet in time of persecution and the like cases the Church is not alwayes so conspicuous as that a man seeing her outward pompe and ceremonies may poynt her out and safely joyne himselfe to such a company for thus Bellarmine makes the Church to be a Societie subjecting themselves to the See of Rome teaching trueth without errour and this Companie as visible as are the Citizens of Rome Now for the Protestant Church though it have not bin alwayes gloriously visible yet it hath been evermore so visible as the true Church ought to be PAP Saint
That at Rome no man may say that the Councel is above the Pope nor at Paris that the Pope is above the Councel In a word the Papists are at great odds but they cunningly conceale them insomuch as it is observed that some of them would say to their friends in privat Thus or thus I would say in the schooles and openly Sed maneat inâ—er nos diversum sentio but keepe my counsel I thinke the contrarie PA. We may haply be at ods in some Scholasticke points but not in matters defined by the Pope and a Generall Councel PRO. You would have us beleeve that at the sound of the Popâ—s sentence like frogs in a marish at the falling in of a great log or stone you are all hushed and silenced but it is not so for since the Trent decrees were published divers of your side are divided about the sense thereof iâ—somuch as they differ in the maine points thereof which in your account are fundamental and the deniers therof reputed Hereticks This may appeare by these instances The Pope in the Councels of Trent and Florence decreed the Apocrypha to bee Canonicall Scripture yet since that decree Driedo and Sixtus Senensis have called them in question and rejected them The Pope in the last Councelâ— is decreed to be above a Councel and yet since that time Alphonsus à Castro hath writ the contrarie The Trent Councel teacheth Sess. 6. Iustification by Inherent righteousnes condemning those that beleeve the imputation of Christs Righteousnesse and yet Albertus Pighius defendeth imputed â—ighteousnesse so doth Cardinal Contaren in his treatise of Iustification Again the Pope decreed against the certainty of grace salvation defining Sess. 6. that no man should beleeve these things of himselfe yet Catharinus defended the contrary holding that a man might have the certainty of Faith touching these thingsâ— and when the Trent Councels authority was objected against him he eluded it by divers sleight distinctions The truth is the Papists have a kind of unitie to wit a superstitious and hypocriticall crouching to the popes chayreâ— for so long as they agree to go to mass swear to the popes supremacy other things are tollerated although they coÌ„sent like harp harrow And surely were it not for the great profit and riches which knit the parts of this body together like twinnes that have different heads but tied together by the belly we should see this great body of the papacy would soon be divided scattered and dispersed Howsoever for any differences amongst the Protestants we may thankefully acknowledge that it was the wonderfull Providence of God that so many severall Countries Kingdomes and States abandoning the abuses of the Church or rather Court of Rome and making particular reformation in their owne dominions without generall meetings and consents should have no more nor greater differences than are found amongst them Object It is usuall with you in your Catalogue to say such and such as namely S. Bernard or the like taught for substance as you doe agreeing only with you in some fundamentall points but this will not serve to make them members of your Church for by the like reason the Quartadecimanes Novatians Donatists and Pelagians might pretend to the Catholike Church in as much as they agreed therewith in some fundamentall truths Answer 1 Agreement in one or more fundamentals maketh not a man a Catholike Christian tho disagreement in any one fundamentall joyned with obstinacie makes a man an Heretike 2 To make a man actually a member of the true Church more is required than agreement in the profession of the same fundamentall points of faith for not only heresie but schisme also excludeth a man from Communion with the true Catholike Church 3 Fundamentall points as well conceâ—ne life and manners as faith and he that impugneth the doctrine of the Decalogue is as well an Heretike as he that impugneth the doctrine of the Creed Nicholas directly impugned the one and by evident consequence the other by maintaining his impure communion or rather community of wives 4 The Quarta decimanes who kept Easter on the fourteenth day precisely were of two sorts Some as Polycrates and other Bishops of Asia kept it so meerely in imitation of S. Iohn the Evangelist and those were never condemned for Heretikes Others kept the fourteenth day by vertue of the Mosaicall Law and these by consequent destroyed the foundation as those did among the Galathians who urged Circumcision to whom S. Paul there professeth That Christ should not profit them and that they were fallen from grace 5 Novatians erred in a fundamentall point concerning Repentance and by consequent overthrew that Article of the Creed Credo remissionem peccatorum 6 The Donatists were rather Schismatikes than Heretikes and rather made a rent in the Church then were excluded from it Saint Austin in his seventh tome every where calleth it Schisma Donati in the end they grew to bee heretikes and denied in effect that fundamentall Article Credo Ecclesiam Catholicam 7 The Pelagians erred in divers fundamentall points concerning originall sinnâ— and the necessity of Grace For farther answer we say that the Authors we produce against the Romanists are of two sorts 1 Some we alleadge onely as Testes veritatis in such or such a point or points of faith 2 Others wee produce as members of our reformed Church and fore-runners of Luther Of the first sort is Bernard very orthodoxe in all points against the Pelagians but otherwise tainted and an open enemy to the Albigenses Of the second sort are the Waldenses Wicklifists and Hussites who as appeares by their confessions of faith extant in Orthuinus Gratius and the History of the Waldenses agree with uâ— in all Fundamentals not onely in some as the Heretikes above mentioned agreed with the Church Objection What though Saint Hierome Bernard and others agree with you in some generall truths men of contrarie religions may have divers materials of doctrine common to both now this is but a genericall agreement which is no more than the agreement betweene a man and a beast Answer 1 Saint Hierome and Bernard are not well rancked together Saint Hierome was a through Papist in no point Bernard was in some living in a corrupt age seaven hundred yeeres after Saint Hierome 2 Besides we answer that Waldo Wickliffe and Husse with others agree with us not onely Generically in the common grounds of Christianitie but Specifically in those formall points which we hold at this day against the Romane Church and as for such calumnies as are cast upon them they are already confuted in this treatise neither will any indifferent person regard them for when once that infamous name of Hereticke was fastned upon a man nothing was too heavie for such an one any thing was beleeved of that man and from thence it is without question that we find so many so absurd so senselesse opinions imputed to them
of the trueth of Christs flesh and bloud there is no place left for doubting Answer Neither doe we doubt of the truth of Christs body and bloud but firmely believe the doctrine of the true Incaâ—nation of Christ. Objection Hilarie saith in nobis carnalibus manentem per carnem Christum habemus we men consisting of flesh and bloud have Christ remayning in us by his flâ—sh Answer So wee have by reason of our mysticall union with Christs flesh and not by any corporall transubstantiation of our flesh into Christ. The same Hilarie saith nos in eo naturaliter inessemus ipso in nobis naturaliter permanente Christ is naturally in us and wee in him but wee are not in him naturally or carnally by any transubstantiation therefore neither is he so in us these termes then of Hilaâ—ies permanentâ—m in nobis carnaliter silium the sonne remayning in us carnally note onely a greater and more reall union than barely by consent or concord of will such as the Arrians acknowledged onely betwixt the Father and the Sonne denying an unitie of nature purposely to avoid that text I and the Father are oneâ— Hilary speaking of this neere union calleth it the mysterie of a true and naturall union mysterium verae ac naturalis unitatis and so indeed it is in respect of Christs inseparable union which hee hath with us by his incarnation by which he is become flesh of our â—lesh and bone of our bone and in respect of our mysticall union with him and his body whereby wee become members of Christs body and quickned by his spirit Object Saint Cyril in his fourth Catechisme saith He that in the marriage of Cana changed water into wine by his onely will is not hee worthy that wee beleeve him that he hath changed wine into his blood Answer S. Cyrils place maintaineth not Popish transubstantiation for in this the shapes and accidents remaine and the materiall substance is corrupted but in our Saviours miracle in the second of Saint Iohn the shapes accidents and forme were changed and the common materiall substance remained Iohn 2.9 Object Cyril saith it is not simple bread and wine it is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ibid. Answer Hee sheweth his meaning to be this namely that the consecrated bread is not common ordinary and meere naturall bread but sanctified elevated and changed to supernaturall use and operation And so I proceed The Elements called Antitypes after Consecration The Fathers of this age treating of the Sacramentall Signes call them Similitudes correspondent types or figures of the body and blood of Christ the figure of the body and blood of the Lord Iesus saith Ambrose and Nazianzene speakes as wee have heard of his sisters laying up some portion of the types or tokens of Christs precious body and blood and againe how durst I offer unto him the type of so great a mysterie in lâ—ke sort Cyril of Hierusâ—lem cals them types and antitypes and they call the Symboles after Consecration Antitypes Now that which is a figure similitude and representation of a thing is not properly the same PA. It followeth not the Eucharist is termed the figure of Christs naturall body therefore it is not substantially and properly his body The figure of a thing may be the same with the thing figured Christ Iesus is a figure of his Fathers substance Hebr. 1.3 and yet is the same substantially with the Father Iohn 10.30 PRO. There is such opposition of Relatives as that the signe and the thing signified cannot bee the same in that very respect and point wherein they are opposite for the instance brought it followeth thus the sonne is the chaâ—acter of his Fathers substance ergo the Son is not the Father though of the same substance nor is the Father the Sonne so must the opposition of necessity hold the Sacrament is the figure signe and representation of Christs body ergo it is not the body of Christ but sacramentally and figuratively In a word you say that Christ is a Character and figure of his Father and yet of the same substance but to have spoken home to the matter in question you should have said that Christ a figure of the Fathers person is yet the same person that the Father which is utterly false To procâ—ed Saint Ambrose saith if thâ—re bee such vâ—rtue in the words of our Lord to make those things that were not to begin to bee how much more powerfull is his word that they remaine the same they were and yet bee changed into another thing hee holdeth the bread and wine in the Lords Supper to remaine to bee the same thaâ— they were therefore they are not changed in substance for then they should not be the same they were yet hee saith they are changed into other to wit not in substance but in qualitie use and signification for so hee saith before the blessing of the heavenly words another kind is named after the Consecration the body of Christ is signified Now if by the consecrated bread in the Eucharist the body bee signified then is not bread essentially the body PA. Saint Ambrose in the ninth chapter of such as are newly instructed in the mysteries saith Moses his word changed the water of Aegypt into blood if so great was the benediction of man what may wee thinke of divine Consecration where the very words of our Saviour worke hee saith also that by benediction or consecration the nature of the Elements in the Lords Supper is changed PRO. Among the six or seaven examples broâ—ght by Saint Ambrose only two are substantiall and the rest accidental for in the place alledged he addeth also these examples that Moses divided the Red Sea that Iordan turned his couâ—se that the bitter waters of Mara were made sweet in all which workes of God there was no Transubstantiation for the waters and the Red Sea were the same in nature and substance as they were before so that by these examples it appeareth that notwithstanding Saint Ambrose say the nature is changed yet he meant a change in qualitie onely and not in substance And such a change there is in the Eucharist the Elements are changed when of common and naturall creatures they are made sacred and become Channels and Instruments of saving grace and such a change Ambrose meant for comparing these miracles of the Prophets wherein God changed the nature of things with the change that is wrought in the Sacrament he saith that it is no lesse to adde some new things unto things than to change the nature of things averring plainly thereby that the bread had received some new thing without loosing the nature of bread and such a change is not strange for thus a piece of waxe becomming the Kings Seale changeth it's nature without Transubstantiation Besides the Fathers use the like Tenour of speech of the Sacrament of Baptisme and yet doe not hence inferre any Transubstantiation they
Church as if Saint Peter whose successour he pretends to be had hâ—ld the Apostolike chayre as it weâ—e in Fee for him and his Successours for ever and the other eleven had held theiâ—s for terme of life onely And now to looke homâ—waâ—ds to our Britaine in this Age we find our auâ—cestors besides their common enemies the Scots Picts and Saxons troubled with another more secret but as dangerous to wiâ— the Pelagian heresie wherewith Pelagius a Romane Monke borne in Little Britaine with his Disciple Celestius beganne to infect these Northerne parts But after they and their heresies were condemned in the Councels of Carthage and Mela Pope Celestine sent Palladius into Scotland as also our neighbours the French bishops at the request of the Catholique English sâ—nt Germanus bishop of Aâ—xerre and Lupus bishop of Troys in Champeigne into England to beat downe Pelagianisme which they happily suppressed Now also there was a Provinciall Councel held in Britaine for the reforming of Religion and repairing of the ruin'd Churches which the Pagan marriage of Vortiger had decayed to the great griâ—fe of the people A plaine token that their zeale continued evâ—n unto those dayâ—s for so it was whiles Vortiger a British Prince marryed with the fayre but Infidel Rowena Hengists daughter this Saxon match had almost undone both Church and State whilest as Bede complaines Priest's were slaine standing at the Altar and bishops with thâ—ir flocks weâ—e murdered till at length they assembled a Councel to repayre those decayes which this marriage had made Now to close up this Age the Reader may observe that we have surveyed the first foure Generall Councels which Gregorie the Great proâ—essed that he â—mbraced as the foure Gospels and indeed they were called agâ—inst those foure Arch-heretickes that pestered the Câ—urch the first was hâ—ld at Nice against Arrius a Priâ—st of Alâ—xandria who held that Christ was neither God nor eternall but an excellent creature created before all creatures The second at Constantinople against Macedonius who held that Christ was not of the same essence not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consubstantiall and of the same substance with the Father but onely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 like to him and that the Holy Ghost was not God but Gods Minister and a creature not eternall The third at Ephâ—suâ— against Nestorius who held that Christ had two severall persons but not two wills and that the Virgin Mary was not to be called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the mother of God but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Mother of Christ. The fourth at Chalcedon where Dioscorus and Eutyches were condemned This Eutyches confuting Nestorius fell into other heresies and confounded the two natures of Christ making him after his union to have but the divine nature onely Besides the Reader may farther observe that upon the survey of these first foure Generall Councells so much esteemed by S. Gregory it is found that they confined the bishop of Rome to his bounds with other Patriarkes and they equalled other Patriarchall Seas to the Romane so that hereby is discovered the vanity of Campian's flourish saying Generall Councells are all ours the first and the last and the middle For we imbrace such Generall Councells as were held in those golden Ages within the first sixe hundâ—ed yeares or thereabouts The middle ranke beginning at the second Nicene unto the Councell of Florence held in the Ages of the mingled and confused Church they are neither wholly theirs nor ours The two last the one at Lateran the other at Trâ—nt these being held by the drosse of the Church are theirs AN APPENDIX to the fiâ—th CENTVRIE Of the Fathers Authoritie PAPIST YOu have produced the Fathers for these five or sixe hundred yeares as if they had beene of your Faith whereas you dissent from thâ—m and refuse their tryall but wee honour them and appeale to the joynt coâ—sent of Anâ—iquity PROTESTANT Where wee seâ—me to vary from them it is eithâ—r in things humane arbitrarie and indifferent or in matters not fully discussed by the ancient or in poynts which were not delivered by joynt consent of the ancient or in things which are reproved by plaine demonstration of holy Scripture and wherein the Fathers permit liberty of dissenting and the Papists themsâ—lves usually take it Neither would Saint Austine the faiâ—est flower of Antiquity have his Reader follow him farther than hee followeth the Truth not denying but that as in his maners so in his writings many things might justly be taxed Neither doe we refuse the triall of the Fathers truely alleadged and rightly understood witnesse the challenge made by Bishop Iewell and seconded by Doctor Whitaker and Doctor Featly yea Doctor Whitaker as Scultetus observeth was confident That the Fathers although in some matters they be variable and partly theirs partly ours yet in the materiall poynts they be wholly ours and theirs in matters of lesser moment and some few Tenets Likewise that great light of Oxford Doctor Reinolds in his Conference with Master Hart solemnely protested that in his opinion not one of all the Fathers was a Papist for saith he The very being and essence of a Papist consists in the opinion of the Popes supremacie but the Popes supremacie was not allowed by any of the Fathers as he there proveth against Hart not one then of all the Fathers was a Papist PA. May wee not ground our Faith upon the Fathers Testimonies PRO. Wee reverence the ancient Fathers but still with reservation of the respect wee owe to that Ancient of dayes Daniel 7.6 their father and ours who taught young Elihu Iob. 32.6 to reprove his Ancients even holy Iob amongst them Iob 33.12 him alone doe we acknowledge for the father of our Faith on whom wee may safely ground in things that are to bee believed For every Article of Christian Faith must bee grounded on divine revelation but all opinions of the Fathers are not divine revelations neither doe the Fathers challenge to themselves infallibility of judgement Sâ—int Austine saith This reverence and honour have I learnt to give to those Bookes of Scripture onely which are called Canonicall that I most firmely believe none of their Authors could any whit erre in writing But others I so reade that with how great sanctity and learning soever they doe excell I therefore thinke not any thing to be true because they sâ— thought it but because they were able to perswade me either by those Canonicall Authours or by some probâ—ble reason that it did not swerve from truth Neither doe our Adversaries yield infâ—llibilâ—ty of judgement tâ— the Fathers Baronius saith The Church doth not alwayes and in all things follow the Fathers interpretation of Scripture Bellarmine saith Their writings are no rules of Faith neither have they authority to binde Canus tells us That the ancient Fathers sometime erre and against the ordinary course of nature bring forth
Ancients used the word Merit and so also they used the termes Indulgences Satisfaction Sacrifice aâ—d Penance but quite in another sense then the later Romanists doe the Fathers who use it tooke up the word as they found it in ordinary use and custome with men in those times not for to deserve which in our language implyeth Merit of condignity but to incurre to attaine impetrate obtaine and procure without any relation at all to the dignity either of the person or the worke thus Saint Bernard concerning children promoted to the Prelacie saith They were more glad they had escaped the rod than that they had merited that is obtayned the prâ—ferment Saint Augustine saith that hee and his fellowes for their good doings at the hands of the Dâ—natists In steed of thankes merited that is incurred the flames of hatred on the other side the same Fatheâ— affirmeth That Saint Paul for his persecutions and blasphemies merited that is found grace to bee named a vessell of election Saint Gregory hath a straine concerning the sinne of Adam which is sung in the Church of Rome at the blessing of the Taper O happy sinne that merited that is Found the favour to have such and so great a Redeemer In like sort by merits they did ordinarily signifie workes as appeares by that of Saint Bernard saying The merits of men are not such that for them eternall life should bee due of right for all merits are Gods gifts Neither did the ancient Church hold merit of Condignitie but resolved according to that of Leo The measure of celestiall gifts depends not upon the qualitie of works they were not of the Rhemists opinion That good works are meritorious and the very cause of salvation so farre that God should be unjust if he rendred not heaven for the same They were not so farre Iesuited as with Vasquez to hold that The good works of just persons are of themselves without any covenant and acceptation worthy of the reward of eternall life and have an equall value of condignitie to the obtaining of eternall glorie PA. You cannot denie but that prayer for the dead is ancient PRO. The manner now used is not ancient for they that of old prayed for the dead had not any reference to Purgatorie as Popish prayers are now adayes made It is true indeed that anciently they used Commemorations of the defunct neither mislike wee their manner of naming the deceased at the holy table in this sort they used a Commemoration of the Patriarks Prophets Apostles Evangelists Martyrs and Confessours yea of Mary the mother of our Lord to whom it cannot be conceived that by prayer they did wish their deliverance out of Purgatorie sith no man ever thought tâ—em to be there but if they wished any thing it was the deliverance from the power of death which as yet tyrannized over one part of them the hastning of their resurâ—ection as also a joyful publike acquitall of them in that great day wherein they shall stand to bee judged before the judge of the quicke and dead that so having fully escaped from all the consequences of sin the last enemie being then destroyed and death swallowed up in victorie they might obtaine a perfect consummation and blisse both in body and soule according to the forme of our Churches Liturgie In the Commemoration of the faithfull departed retained as yet in the Romane missall there is used this Orizon O Lord grant unto them eternall rest and let everlasting light shine unto them and againe This oblation which we humbly offer unto thee for the Commemoration of the soules that sleepe in peace we beseech thee O Lord receive graciouslie and it is usuall in the Ambrosian and Gregorian Office and in the Romane missall to put in their Memento the names of such as sleepe in the sleepe of Peace omnium pausantium and to entreate for the spirits of those that are at rest Remember O Lord thy servants and hand maides which have gone before us with the Ensigne of Faith and sleepe in the sleepe of Peace now by Pausantium Pamelius understands such as sleepe and rest in the Lord. Where we may observe that the soules unto which Everlasting blisse was wished for were yet acknowledged to rest in Peace and consequently not to be disquieted with any Purgatorie torment So that the thing which the Church anciently aymed at in her supplications for the dead was not to ease or release the soules out of Purgatorie but that the whole man not the soule separated onely might find mercie of the Lord in that day as sometime Saint Paul prayed for Onesiphorus even whiles Onesiphorus was yet alive Besides they desired a joyfull Resurrection as appeares by severall passages and Liturgies by the Aegyptian Liturgie attributed to Cyril Bishop of Alexandria where we find this Orizon Raise up their bodies in the day which thou hast appointed according to thy promises which are true and cannot lye And that of Saint Ambrose for Gratian and Valentinian the Emperours I doe beseech thee most high God that thou wouldst raise up againe those deere young men with a speedie resurrection that thou mayst recompence this untimely course of this present life with a timely resurrection As also in Grimoldus his Sacramentarie Almighty and everlasting God vouchsafe to place the body and the soule and the spirit of thy servant N. in the bosomes of Abraham Isaac and Iacob that when the day of thine acknowledgement shall come thou mayst command them to be raised up among thy Saints and thine Elect. The like is found in the Agend of the dead already mentioned PA. Invocation of Saints was anciently used PRO. I answer that though in respect of later times Prayer to Saints and some other of our adversaries Tenets may seeme ancient and gray-headed yet in respect of the first three or foure hundred yeares next after Christ they are not of that ancient standing now the true triall of antiquitie is to be takâ—n from the first and purest agâ—s for as Tertullian telleth us That is most true which is most ancient that most ancient which was from the beginning that from the beginning which froÌ„ the Apostles so that which at fiâ—st was delivered to the Saints is truest and the good seed was first sowne and after that came the tares Besides what though some poynts in Poperie were of a thousand yeareâ— standing it is not time that can make a lye to be truth antiquitie without truth is but antiquitas erroris an ancient errour and there is no pâ—aescripâ—ion of time can hold plea against God and his truth Neither yet can you prescribe for divers Tenetâ—â— Scotus that was termed the Subtile Doctor telleth us that before the Councel of Lateran which was not till the yeare 1215 Transubstantiation was not believed as a poynt of Faith This did Bellarmine observe as
a matter of nothing to corrupt the ancient writers Austin or Fulbertus or both or could this Dicet Haereticus in probability be the mistake of the Printer and not rather purposely done by such as could not brooke the truth of that doctrine which Fulbert delivered out of S. Austine But the same Fulbert elswhere in a higher straine tels us of a Spirituall yet reall receiving of Christ saying Hold ready the mouth of thy Faith open the jawes of hope strâ—tch out the bowels of love and take the bread of life which is the nourishment of the inward man Objection Theophylact saith He that eateth me shall live by mee forasmuch as after a sort he is mingled with me and trans-elementated into me or changed into me Answer Theophylact is not of that credit as being but a late writer above a thousand yeares after Christ and therefore farre short of Primitive antiqâ—itie living as Bellarmine saith in his catalogue of Ecclesiaâ—ticke writers about the yeare 1071. Besides transelementaion proveth not transubstantiation for in transubstantiation the matter is destroyed and the quantitie and accidents remaine and in trans-elementation the matter remaineth and the essentiall accidentall formes are altered Objection Yea but Bellarmine alleadgeth Theophylact saying of the Bread that it is trans-elementated into the body of Christ and he useth the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Answer Theophylact can best tell us his own meaningâ— now the same Theophylact who said that bread was trans-elemenâ—ated into Christs body saith also nos in Christum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that we also are trans-elemeÌ„â—ated into Christ that a Christian and faithfull Communicant is in a manner tâ—ans-elementated iâ—to Christ for so his words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â— id in cap. 6. Ioan. Nâ—w they will not say that we are transubstantiated into Christ therefore neither doth Theophylact by the word Trans-elementation used of the bread and wine understand any substantiall but onely a Sacramentall change in respect of the use and effect And so I proceed At this time also Berenger Archdeacon of Angiers in France resisted the corporall presence PA. I challenge Berenger PRO. You cannot justly except against him either for his life or his learningâ— In these times saith Platina Odo Abbot of Clunie and Berenger of Tours were of great account for their excellent learning and holinesse of life Sigebert Abbot of Gâ—mbloux saith that Berenger was well skilled in the Liberall arts and an excellent Logician Hildebert Bishop of Mans and afterwards Archbishop of Touâ—s was his Scholler and honoured his deceased master with this Epitaph Vir vere sapiens parte beatus ab omni Qui coâ—los animâ corpore ditat humum Post obitum vivam secùm secùm requiescam Nec fiat melior sors mea sorte suâ He was a man was blest on every part The earth hath his body the heavens his heart My wish shall be that at my end My soule may rest with this my friend PA. What though he opposed the reall presence this was but one Doctors opinion which himselfe brâ—ached without any former Catholicke precedent PRO. That is not so for his country-man Bertram who was a Monke of Corbey Abbey in France opposed the same long before him and Duval a Doctor of Sorbone saith that Amalarius and Ioannes Scotus were Berengers fore-runners The truâ—h is he neither wanted fore-runners nor followers and favourers Sigeberts Chronicle speaking of Berengers Tenet faith That there was much disputation and by many both by word and writing against him and for him Where the learned bishop Vsher observes that the words Et pro eo and for him specially favouring Berengers cause are left out in some Editionâ— but they are to bee found in other authenticke copies and wee may by the way observe that this poynt of carnall presence or the Sacrament Sub Spectebus for so they terme it was but a disputable point pro and contra and no matter of Faith in Berengers dayes Indeed this doctrine was borne downe by the Popes power so that divers durst not make open profession thereof yet privately they imployed both their tongues and pens in defence thereof and some even in a Romane Councel purposely called against Berenger stood in Defence of his figurative sense of the Sacramentall words as appeares by the Acts of the same Councel In a word Mathew of Westminster saith that Berenger had almost drawne all France Italie aâ—d England to his opinion so that the Berengarians did not luâ—ke in any obscure nooke or corner of the world but spread themselves into the famousest parts of Europe PA. Father Parsons saith that Berenger Recanted so that you cannot account him one of your side PRO. Indeed Berenger was called and appeared before divers Councels was questioned and censâ—red by fâ—uâ—e severall Popes and there was a forme of Recantation tendred to him the tenour whereof is this as Gratian hath registred it in his Decrees aftâ—rwards published and confirmed by Pope Gregory the thirtâ—enth I Berengarius doe firmely professe that I hold that the body of Christ is in this Sacrament not onely as a Sacramâ—nt but even in truth is sâ—nsibly handled with the Priests hands and broken and torne with the teeth of the faithfull Now this was such a forme of an Oath as that your owne Glosse saith of it that Vnlesse it be warily understood onâ— may fall into a greater heresie than Berengâ—r did And yet this coâ—poral eating of Christs flâ—sh with the Capernaits in Saints Iobus sixth Chapterâ— and this tearing his body with the Communicants teeth must be understood literally inasmuch as the words were purposely set downe for a formall Recantation and Bellarmine confesseth that There are no formes of speech more exact and proper in phrase concerning the matter of Faith than such as are usâ—d by thâ—m that abjure heresie Againe what though Bâ—renger upon the Clergies importunity through humane frailty were constrained For feare of death as an Historian saith to subscribeâ— and to burnâ— both his owne booke and Scotus his treatise of the Eucharist which had led him into that opinion yet he might still be of the same judgement he was on before And though he Recanted yet heâ—ein he did no more than Saint Petâ—r whose successour the Pope pretends himselfe to be in denying his Mastâ—r no more than Queene Mary who being terrified with her Faâ—hers displeasuâ—e wrote him a letter with her ownâ— hand in which for ever she renounceth the Popâ—s authoritie here in England And though hee was driven for the time to retract yet upon his comming home hee returned to his former Tenâ—t and as one saith who lived about the same time Nec tamen postâ—à dimisit afâ—er that he never changed his opinion In a word â—hough Berenger himselfe were somewhat wavering yet were his Schollers constant insomuch that Malmsburiensis a bitter enemy of theirs saith
of weake abilities and also for that they had made a booke which they called the everlasting Gospell whereunto they said Christs Gospell was not to be compared Pope Alexander the fourth was content upon complaint made unto him that the Friers booke should be burned provided that it were done covertly and secretly and so as the Friers should not be discredited thereby and as for William of Saint Amour hee dealt sharply with him commanding his booke to be burnt as also he suspended from their benefices and promotions all such as either by word or writing had opposed the Friers untill such time as they should revoke and recant all such speeches and writings at Paris or other places appointed so tender was his holines over the Friers credit and reputation knowing belike what service might be done to him and his successours by these newly errected orders of â—riers I call them newly erected for in the time of Pope Innocent the third about the yeare 1198 the Iacobites an order of preaching Friers were instituted by Saint Dominicke and about the beginning of this age the order of Franciscans preaching Friers Minors was instituted by Saint Francis borne at Assise a towne in Italy Of the Scriptures sufficiencie and Canon SCoâ—us saith that supernaturall knowledge as much as is necessarie for a wayfaring man is sufficiently delivered in sacred Sâ—ripture Thomas Aquinas in his commentary upon that place of Saint Paul the Scriptures are able to make one wise unto salvation that the man of God may be perfect 2 Timoth. 3.15.17 saith that the Scriptures doe not qualifie a man aâ—ter an ordinarie sort but they perfit him so that nothing is wanting to make him happy And accordingly Bonaventure saith The beneâ—it of sâ—ripture is not ordinarie but such as is able to make a man fully blessed and happy Hugo Cardinalis speaking of the bookes rejected by us saith These bookes are not received by the Church for proofe of doctrine but for information of manners Of Communion under both kindes and nâ—mber of Sacraments ALexander Hales howsoever he some way incline to that opinion that it is sufficient to receive the Sacrament in one kind yet he confesseth that there is more merit and devotion and compleatnesse and efficacie in receiving in both Againe hee saith Whole Christ is not sacramentally conteined under each forme because the bread signifieth the body and not the blood the wine signifieth the blood and not the body Concerning the Churches practise wee doe not finde that the lay people were as yet barred of the cup in the holy Sacrament for our Countrey-man Alexander Hales who flourished about the yeare of Grace 1240. saith that we may receive the body of Christ under the forme of bread onely sicut fere ubique fit à Laicis in ecclesiâ as it is almost every where done of the Laiety in the Church it was almost done every where but it was not done every where Concerning the Sacraments the Schoolemen of this age can hardly agree amongst themselves that there be seaven Sacraments properly so called Alexander of Hales saith that there are onely â—oure which are in any sort properly to be sayd Sacraments of the new Law that the other three supposed Sacraments had their being before but received some addition by Christ manifested in the flesh that amongst them which began with the new Covenant onely Baptisme and the Eucharist were instituted immediately by Christ received their formes from him and flowed out of his wounded side Touching Confirmation the same Alexander of Hales saith the Sacrament of Confirmation as it is a Sacrament was not ordained either by Christ or by the Apostles but afterwards was ordained by the Councell of Meldain France Touching extreame unction Suarez saith that both Hugo of Saint Victor in Paris and Peter Lombard and Bonaventure and Alexander of Hales and Altissidorus the cheefe schoolemen of their time denyed this Sacrament to be instituted by Christ and by plaine consequence saith he it was no true Sacrament though they were of opinion that a Sacrament might be instituted by the Apostles and therefore admitted not of this consequence Of the Eucharist COncerning the Eucharist Scotus saith that it was not in the beginning so manifestly beleeved as concerning this coversion But principally this seemeth to move us to hold Transubstantiation because concerning the Saraments we are to hold as the Church of Rome doth And hee addeth wee must say the Church in the Creed of the Lateran councell under Innocent the third which begins with these words Firmiter credimus declared this sence concerning Transubstantiation to belong to the veritie of our faith And if you demaund why would the Church make choice of so difficult a sence of this Article when the words of the Scripture This is my Body might be upholden after an easie sence and in appearance more true I say the Scriptures were expounded by the same spirit that made them and so it is to be supposed that the catholike Church expounded them by the same spirit whereby the faith was delivered us namely being taught by the spirit of truth and therefore it chose this sence because it was true thus farre Scotus Let us now see what Bellarmie saith Scotus tells us saith he that before the Councell of Lateran which was held in the yeare one thousand two hundred and fifteene transubstantiation was not beleeved as a point of faith this is confessed by Bellarmine to be the opinion of Scotus onely he would avoyd his testimonie with a minime probandum est Scotus indeed saith so but I cannot allow of it and then hee taxeth Scotus with want of reading as if this learned and subtile Doctor had not seene as many Councels and read as many Fathers for his time as Bellarmine The same Bellarmine saith that Scotus held that there was no one place of scripture so expresse which without the declaration of the Church would evidently compell a man to admit of Transubstantiation and this saith the Cardinall is not altogether improbable It is not altogether improbable that there is no expresse place of Scripture to proove Transubstantiation without the declaration of the Church as Scotus sayd for although the Scriptures seeme to us so plaine that they may compell any but a refractary man to beleeve them yet it may justly be doubted whether the Text be cleare enough to enforce it seeing the most acute and learned men such as Scotus was have thought the contrary thus farre Bellarmine unto whom I will adde the testimonie of Cuthbert Tonstall the learned Bishop of Durham His words are these Of the manner and meanes of the Reall presence either by Transubstantiation or otherwise perhaps it had beene better to leave every man that would be curious to his owne conjecture as before the councell of Lateran it was left and Master Bernard Gilpin a man most holy and
in all matters of Religion he agreed fully with the Catholike Roman Church PRO. What his Religion was let his owne workes testifie Guicciâ—rdine saith that amongâ—â— other things hâ—e was charged That his doctrine was not fully Catholike hee meaneth Roman Catholike and Comminees saith That one of the Frier Minorites his professed adversary charged him to be an Heretike so that in his opinion he was not in each point a Roman Catholike And to take the Popes procesâ—e which was published against him as wee find it in Guicciardine Therein it is given out that Savonarola had a holy desire that by his meanes a Generall Councell might be called wherein the corrupt customes of the Clergy might bee reformed and the estate of the Church of God so farre wandred and gone astray might bee reduced so farre forth as was possible to the likenesse of that it was in the Apostles time or those that were neerest unto them and if he could bring so great and so profitable a worke to effect hee would thinke it a farre greater glory then to obtaine the Pope-dome it sâ—lfe in the same Processe it is contained how hee despised the Popes commandements and returned publikely to his olâ— office of preaching affirming that the Popâ—s censures published against him were unjust and of no force as also that the matters by him prophesiâ—d were not pronounced by divine revelation but by his proper opinion grounded upon the doctrine and observation of holy Scripture And now let the Reader consider by that which Guicciardine reports of Savonarola and namely touching the opinion he had of the Popes authoritie and his excommunications touching generall Councels and the deformitie and degeneration of the Churches state in respect of antiquitie as also what Comminees saith of his preaching of the Reformation of the Church and that by the Sword as formerly our Grosthead Bishop of Lincolne foretold and then let him judge of what profession he was likely to be Now for the poynt of faction and sedition It is true indeâ—d that there was a great faction in Florence not onely amongst the Laity but the Spiritualty alâ—o but it doth not appeare that Hierome was the Author or nourisher of this discord or that he had any hand in that tumult wherein Francisco Valori a principall favourer of Savonarola was slaine When Saint Paul preached the Gospel in Asia the whole Citty of Ephâ—sus was full of confusion and they rushed into the Common place and caught Gajus and Aristarchus Pauls companions of his journey Act. 19. ver 29. Was Paul or his companions the occasion of this tumult Savonarola preached the word of God in Florence his adversaries tooke Armes entred the Monasterie of Saint Marke where hee was and drew him and two of his brethren Dominick and Silvester out of the Covent and put them into the common prisons upon occasion of a mutinie in the Citie but Hierome and his fâ—llowes occasioned not this tumult It was indeed pâ—â—tended thaâ— he sided with the one faction in Florence but Philip de Comminees who knew him better than Paâ—sons toucheth that which brought the Frâ—er to the sâ—ake namâ—ly In that hee prophâ—sied and that so vehemently and freely of the comming in of forraine forces and of a King that by force of Armes should reforme the corrupt state of the Church and chastise the Tyrants of Italy this was it saith he which made the Pope and the state of Florence hate him Thus have we heard of his life and death there remaineth nothing now but his Epiâ—aph wherewith Flaminius a famous Poet of Italy hath honoured him And thus it is Dum fera flaâ—ma tuos Hieronyme pascitur artus Religio flevit dilaniâ—ta comas Flevit et ô dixit crudeles parcite flammae Paâ—ite sunt isto viscera nostra rogo That is Whiles Hiâ—rome to the firy stake was led Religion tore her haire and wept and said You cruell flames oh spare this tender heart For whiles he burns Religion feels the smart And so I proceed to the severall points in question Of the Scriptures Sufficiencie and Canon Geâ—son makes the word of Christ the sole authenticall ground of faith and the onely infallible rule to decide controvâ—rsies The Scriptures saith he is given unto us as a sufficient and infallible Rule for the governement of the whole body of â—he Church and each part thereof unto the end of the world What evill saith the same Gerson hath followed upon the contempt of holy Scripture which doubtlesse is sufficient for the government of the Church for otherwise Christ had beene an unperfect Law giveâ— experâ—eâ—ce will teach That Wickliffe affirmeth that nâ—ither Friers nor Prelates may define aâ—y thing in matters of faith unlesse they have the auâ—hority of sacred Scripture or some speciall revelation I dislikâ— not saith Waldensis but his waywardnesse and craft I condemne and thinke it necessary lest wee wrest the Scâ—â—ptures and erre in the interpretation of them to follow the â—radition of the Church expounding them unto us and not to trust to our own private singular conceits This is that which Vincentius Lirinensis long since delivered Alphonsus Tostatus saith Although the bookes in question bee received of the Church yet are thâ—y not of any solide auâ—hority and thâ—refore they are improfitable to prove and confirme those things which are called in question according to Saint Hierome Thomas Waldensis cites out of Hierome the Canâ—n of the old Testament in these words As there are twâ—nty two letters by which we write in Hebrew all that we speake so there are accounted twenty two bookes by which as letters wee are instructed in the doctrine of God and withall addeth That the whole Canonicall Scripture is contained in the two and twenty bookes Dionysius Carthusiâ—nus in writing upon Ecclesiasticus saith That booke is not of the Conon that is amongst the Canonicall Scriptures although there be no doubt made of the truth of that booke This is likewise confessed by Pererius the Iesuite saying Dionysius Carthusianus and Lyra doe not deny the History of Susanna to be true but they deny the bookes of Iudith Tobit and the Maccabees to apertaine to the Cononicall Scriptures And the like observation touching Lyra is made by Picus Mirandula and Picus himselfe would have us note that many things which in the Decrees are reckoned for Apocryphall and so accounted by Hierome are neverthelesse read in the Divine Service and many things also which some hold not to bee truâ— Of Communion under both kinds and number of Sacraments The Councel of Constance did not simply forbid the ministring of the Sacrament in both kinds but the teaching of the people that of necessity it must be so ministred for so we find in the thirteenth Session of the said Councel That if any should obstinately maintaine that it was unlawfull or â—rronious to receive in one kind he ought to be punished
saying of Ernestus Arch-bishop of Magdeburg lying on his death-bed some five yeares befoâ—e Luther shewed himselfe It is witnessed by Clement Schaâ— Chaplaine to the said Arch-bishop and one who was present at his death that a Frier Minor used this speech to the Archbishop Take a good heart most worthy Prince wee communicate to your excellencie all the good workes not onely of our selves but our whole order of Frier Minors and therefore doubt not but you receiving them shall appeare before the tribunall Seate of God righteous and blessed Whereunto the Arch-bishop replyed By no meanes will I trust upon my owne workes or yours but the workes of Christ Iesus alone shall suffice upon them will I repose my selfe THE SIXTEENTH CENTVRIE From the yeare of Grace 1500. to 1600. Of Martin Luther PAPIST WHat say you of this sixteenth Age PROTESTANT We are now by Gods assistance come to the period of time which was agreed upon in the beginning of our conference to wit to the dayes of Martin Luther for about the yeare of Grace 1517 hee beganne to teach and Preach against Indulgences And withall I have produced a Catalogue of our professours unto this present sixteenth Centurie PA. Stay your selfe you must saith Master Brerely show us your professours during the twentie yeares next before Luther PRO. It is done already for besides our English Martyrs we have produced Trithemius the Abbot and Savonarola both which lived within the time mentioned and held with us the Article of free Iustification and Savonarola howsoever the matter be otherwise coloured was burnt for Religion in the yeare 1498. Besides there have beene in all Ages and in the time mentioned such as held the substantiall Articles of our Religion both in the Roman and Greeke Church and by name the Grecians in common with us have openly denyed the Popes Supremacie Purgatorie private Masses Sacrifices for the dead and defended the lawfulnesse of Priests marriage Likewise in this Westerne part of the world the Schollers of Wickliffe called Lollards in England the Taboâ—ites in Bohemia and Waldenses in France maintained the same doctrine in substance with our moderne Protestants as appeareth by a Confession of the Waldensian Faith set forth about the yeare of Grace 1508 which was within the time prefixed Neither did these whom we have produced dissemble their Religion but made open profession thereof by their Writings Confessions and Martyrdomes as also their just Apologies are extant to cleere them from the Adversaries imputation PA. I thought Luther had beene the first founder of your Religion for there bee some of your men who call him the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine PRO. Luther broached not a new Religion he onely drained and refined it from the Lees and dregs of superstition he did not forme or found a new Church which was not in being but onely reformed and purged that which he found from the soilâ— of errours and disorders When Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiah's time found out the booke of God he was thereby a meanes to bring to light what the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a season smothered and so did Luther he was the instrument whom God used for the farther enlightning his Church and yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion than upon the former that Hiâ—kiah first preached the Law The Protestants Church by Luthers meanes began no otherwise in Germanie than health begins to be in a body that was formerly sicke and overcharged and now recovered So that in respect of doctrine necessary to salvation the Church in her Firme members as Saint Austine speakes was the same before Luther and afterwards and it began to be by his meanes onely according to a greaâ—er measure of knowledge and freedome from such corruptions as formerly like ill humours oppressed it and oveâ—charged it The Proâ—estants Church then is the same with all good and sound Christians that lived before them and succeedeth the sound members of the visible Chuâ—ch that kept the life of true Religion in the substantiall matters of Faith and Godlinesse though otherwise those times were daâ—kened with a thicke mist of errours Now whereas some call Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine they did not therâ—by intend that he was the fiâ—st that ever preached the dâ—ctrine of the râ—formed Churches for they could not be ignorant that after Christ and his Apostles and the Fathers of the first five Ages Bertram and Aâ—lfricke and Berenger Peter Bruis and Henry of Tholouse Dulcinus and Anâ—ldus and Lollardus Wickliffe Husse Hierome of Pragâ—e and others stood for the same truth which we professe but their meaning was that Luther was the first who in their Age and memorie publickly and succesfully set on foot a generall reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts And thus in a tollerable sense Luther may bee called the first Apostle of the Reformation though not simply the first that preached the Protestants doctrine Americus Vesputius is reported to have discovered the West Indies or America and withall beares the name thereof and yet Christopher Columbus discovered it before him Bishop Iewell saith that in Luthers dayes in the midst of the darknesse of that Age there first began to shine some glimmeâ—ing beame of truth his meaning is not that the truth was then first revealed but that by Luthers mâ—anes it was manifested in a fuller measure and degree of lâ—ght and knowledge than it was in the fâ—rmer and daâ—ker times of Poperie yea he giveth pâ—rticular instance of true professours that were before Luther namely Saint Hilarie Gregory Bernard Pauperes de Lugduno the â—ishops of Greece and Asia as also Valla Marsilius Petrarch Savonarola and others PA. Did Luther himselfe acknowledge he had any predecessors or fore-runners PRO. I answer with my worthy and learned friend Doctor Featly that Luther acknowledged the Waldenses termâ—d fratres Pigardi as appeares by his Preface before the Waldension Confession I found saith hee in these men a miracle almost unheard of in the Popish Church to wit that these men leaving the doctrines of men to the utmost of their endeavour meditated in the Law of God day and night and were very ready and skilfull in the Scriptures whereas in the Papacie the greatest Clerkes uâ—terly neglected the Scriptures I could not but congratulate both them and us that wee were together brought into one sheepfold Of Iohn Husse and Hiâ—rome of Prague he saith They burned Iohn Husse and Hierome both Catholike men they being themselves Heretikes and Apostates and in his third Preface hee saith hee hath heard from men of credit that Maximilian the Emperour was wont to say of Iohn Husse Alas alas they did that good man wrong And Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed lying yet by me writeth That Husse indeed was condemned and burned but not convicted PA. To
lesse moment and danger such as blemished indeed but tooke not away the Churches being and that they held the true foundation of Religion that is Iustification and Salvation by Iesus Christ his merits onely God dealing graciously with our fore-fathers in that this point was ordinarily taught in their bookes of Visitation and Consolation of the sicke In this respect wee hope that divers both formerly and in our dayes who live Papists die Protestants for howsoever in their life time they talke of Workes Merits and Satisfaction to God yet on their death-bed divers of them find little comfort in Crosses and Crucifixes Pictures and Popes pardons in Agnus Dei's blessed Gâ—aines Reliques and the like then they renounce all meere humane satisfaction merit and workes and breath out their last breath in the Protestant language of that holy Martyr Master Lambert who lift up his hands such hands as he had and his fingers ends flaming with fire and cried out to the people in these words None but Christ none but Christ. The example of Stephen Garâ—iner Bishop of Winchester is notable to this purpose when the Bishop lay sicke on his death-bed and Doctor Day Bishop of Chichester comming to visit him began to comfort him repeating to him such places of Scripture as did expresse or import the free justification of a repentant sinner in the blood of Christ hereunto Winchester replyed What my Lord quoth he will you open that gap now then farewâ—ll altogether you may tell this to such as me and others in my case but open once this window to the people and then farewell altogether Laâ—tly we are not simply and in euery thing to follow our Ancestors it was the argument of Simmachus the heathen Our religion which hath continued so long is to bee retained and our Ancestors to be followed by us who happily traced their fore fathers but the Loâ—d saith Walke yee not in the ordinances of your fore-fathers neither after their manners nor defile your sâ—lves with their Idols I am the Lord your God walke yee in my statuâ—es and keepe them and not after your vaine conversation which yee have received by the tradition of the Fathers as Saint Peter speakes Object If you hope so well of our fore-fathers why hope you not so well of us their children Answer The parties are not alike besides there is great difference of the times then and now the former were times of ignorance these are the dayes wherein light is come into the world in what they erred they erred ignorantly following the conduct of their guides doing as they taught them and so were mislead as Saint Austine saith Errantes ab errantibus by their blind guides but upon better information wee presume they would have reformed their errours Now he is more to bee pitied who stumbleth in the darke than in the day-light men are now admonished of their erâ—rours offer is made to them to be better instructed so that their censure will bee heavier if either they dote on their owne opinions unwilling to bee instructed in the reveled truth or after sufficient knowlâ—dge and conviction for some worldly respects they wilfully and obstinatly persist in their old errors and which is farre worse hate and persecute the maintainers of the truth Saint Cyprian saith If any of our Predecessors either of ignorance of simplicity hath noâ— observed and held that which our Lord hath taught us by his word and example by the Lords mercy pardon might bee granted to his simplicitie but to us that are now admonished and instructed of the Lord pardon cannot bee granted Saint Augustine puts a difference betwixt Heretikes and them that beleeve Heretikes and he saith farther They that defend an opinion false and perverse without pertinacious selfe-mindednesse especially which not the boldnâ—sse of their owne presumption hath begotten but which from their seduced and erronious Parents they have received and themselves doe seeke the truth with care and diligence ready to amend their errour when they find the truth they are in no wise to bee reckoned among Heretikes this was the case of our Fathers under the Papacie In a word our Fathers they lived in those errours of ignorance not of obstinacie and knew not the dangerous consequence of them such men by particular repenâ—ance of sinnes knowne and generall repentance of unknowne might by Gods mercie be saved Object If holding the foundation will serve as you seeme to say in the case of our fore-fathers then we may safely obtaine salvation in the Church of Rome Answer This followeth not for the Church of Rome buildeth many things which by consequent destroy the foundation Rome doth both hold the foundation and destroy it she holds it directly destroyes it by consequent As the Galathians held the foundation to wit salvation by Iesus Christ and yet withall held a necessity of joyning Circumcision with Christ which doctrine by consequence destroyed the very foundation for so Saint Paul wrote unto them Galat. 5.2.4 If they were circumcised Christ profited them nothing hâ—e became of none effect unto them they were fallen from gracâ— In like sort Poperie opposeth the Faith not directly but obliquely not formally but virtually not in expresse termes but by consequence Poperie overthrowes the foundation by consequence whiles it brings on so many stories of unsound adjections and corrupt super-additions upon the ancient ground-sole of Religion as are like to â—ndanger the whole frame The learned and acute Doctor Doctor Hall now Lord Bishop of Exceter gives severall instances hereof Poperie overthroweth the truth of our Iustification whiles it ascribes it to our owne works the All-sufficiencie of Christs owne Sacrifice whiles they reiterate it daily by the hands of a Priest Of his Satisfaction while thâ—y hold a payment of our utmost farthings in a devised Purgatorie Of his Mediation while they implore others to ayde them not onely by their Intercession but their Merits suing not onely for their prayers but their gifts the value of the Scriptures whiles they hold them unsufficient obscure in points essâ—ntiall to salvation and bind them to an uncertaine dâ—pendance upon the Church Now for the simpler sort whilâ—s in truth of heart they hold the maine principles which they know doubtlâ—sse the mercy of God may passe over their ignorant weakenesse in what they cannot know For the other I feare not to say that many of their errours are wilfull The light of truth hath shined out of heaven to them and they loved darkenesse more than lighâ— Thus farre that learned â—ishop PA. The Protestants at â—ast many of them conâ—â—sse there may be salvation in our Church we absolutely deny thereâ—s salvâ—tion in theirs therefore it is safâ—r to come to ours than to sâ—ay in theirs to be where almost all grant salvation than where the greater part of the world deny it PRO. This point is fully cleered by the judicious Author of the Answer to
â—he private Masses and some also must be attributed to the very change of time it selfe as publicke prayers in an unknowne tongue in Italy France and Spaine for there a long time the Latine was commonly understood of all but when afterwards by the invasion of those barbarous nations the Goths and Vandals their speeches degenerated into those vulgar tongues that are now used there then the language not of the Service but of the people was altered so that upon the fall of the Empire learning began to decay and the publicke Service no longer to be understood by reason of the change of the vulgar tongues Lastly wee are able to show as appeares by the eighth Centurie of this treatise when and by whom corruption of doctrine hath beene brought in and how opposition hath beene made from time to time in case of the adversaries violent intrusion for instance sake for the space of sixe hundred yeares and more next after Christ the Catholicke doctrine of the Church of Rome was this that Images were not to be adored and this is witnessed by Gregorie the Great who allowed no use of Images but onely Historical for so he saith They are not set up to be worshipped but onely to instruct the people that be ignorant yea he speakes positively that The worshipping of Images is by all meanes to bee avoided Now this doctrine maintained by Gregorie the first was changed by Gregorie the second and third Adrian the first and second so that here we have taken them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the manner to wit with doctrine novel and differing from their Ancestors and therefore need no farther examination But that the Reader may trace them along we find that this Innovation was resisted by three hundred thirtie eight Bishops at Constantinople in the yeare 754 and though afterwards it got strength at Nice was defended by Rome and at last got to bee a part of the Roman Faith yet was the same disliked denied opposed and resisted by all the good men that lived in that and aftertimes as Charles the Great the councel of Franckford Lewis his sonne the Synod of Paris Alcuinus and the Church of England PA. Will you charge our Religion with novelty can that bee called new which is of so long continuance PRO. Divers points of your Religion are confessed novelties your owne men yeeld that for Above a thousand yeares after Christ the Popes judgement was not esteemed infallible nor his authority above that of a Generall Councell the contrary being decreed in the late Councels of Constance and Basil that Not any one ancient Writer reckons precisely seven Sacraments the first Author that mentioneth that number being Peter Lombard and the first Councell that of Florence that in former ages for thirteene hundred yeares The holy Cup was administred to the Laity that divine service was celebrated for many ages in a knowne and vulgar language understood by the people that Transubstantiation was neither named nor made an Article of faith before the Councell of Lateran which was above twelve hundred yeares after Christ besides many more confessions of this kind which might bee produced Now that a thing may be novell though of long duration may appeare by this our Saviour when he would declare Pharisaicall Traditions to be Novelties did not respect their long continuance in the corrupt estate of the Church but saith Math. 19.8 Ab initio non fuit sic that they were not from the beginning delivered by God or practised by the Church so that if the duration and antiquity of your opinions be but humane that is not Apostolicall neither from Apostolicall grounds they may according to Tertullian be esteemed new and novelties for a point is new in Religion that did not proceed from God and his blessed spirit either interminâ—s or by deduction from his word that is the Ancient of dayes whatsoever pretences of duration and continuance may be supposed It remaineth then that that is new in Religion which is not most ancient so that if you cannot derive your Religion further then from some of the Fathers the tradition whereupon it is builded is then but humane and so a new thing even Noveltie it selfe And therefore Tertullian telleth us That is most true which is most ancient that most ancient which was from the beginning that from the beginning which was from the Apostles as if there were no truth in faith that was not from the beginning If Christ was alwayes and before all truth is a thing equally ancient and from all eternitie saith the same Father and therefore whatsoever savorâ—th against the truth this saith he is Heresie thoâ—gh it be of long continuance for there is no prescription of time that will hold plea against the Ancient of dayes and his truth I know that Pamelius in his notes upon Tertullian would ward off these testimonies by saying that Tertullian spoke thus When hee began to fall into the fancie of Montanus but be it so yet hee delivered some truths after hee lapsed into Montanisme besides Bellarmine for proofe of Monasticall vowes and veiling of Nunnes alleadgeth divers places out of the same treatise of Tertullians de Virginibus velandis of veiling of virgins and then belike Tertullian was no Montanist when Bellarmine for his advantage alleadged him PA. Our Religion Mr. Brerely is that good seed which Christ the good husbandman first sowed in his field Math. 13.24 yours is like the Tares which the enemy afterwards came and sowed among the wheate PRO. A great part of your Religion specially that which is controverted betwixt you and us and namely your Trent additionals and Traditionals was not sowne by the good husbandmen Christ and his Apostles but by the envious man by the craft of the man of sinne and his complices the sinnes of Christian men so requiring for as it is already observed erroneous doctrine it may be antiqua ancient but it cannot be prima that one truth and faith Ephes. 4.5 Which was once delivered to the Saints as S. Inde speakes and therefore is Christ the Husbandman first presented in the Parable as Seminans sowing good seed in his field before the Enemy is produced Reseminans resowing the same Acres with unprofitable graine Besides Religion is one thing and Reformation another the one presupposeth the other our reformation is of a later date our Religion is the old Religion coevall with the Primitive and Apostolike howsoever you taxe us with noveltie But the Disciple is not above his Master the Iewes could say to our Saviour What new doctrine is this and the Grecians to S. Paul May we not know what this new doctrine whereof thou speakest is but wee say in our just defence it is not wee that affâ—ct noveltie but it is you that counterfeit the face of Antiquity as the Gibeonites dealt with Ioshua deceiving him