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truth_n	ancient_a	church_n	faith_n	1,854	5	5.2308	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A82002	A sober and temperate discourse, concerning the interest of words in prayer, the just antiquity and pedigree of liturgies, or forms of prayer in churches : with a view of the state of the church, when they were first composed, or imposed. Together with a discovery of the weakness of the grounds upon which they were first brought in, or upon which Bishop Gawden hath lately discoursed, the necessity of a liturgie, or the inconveniency of altering the English liturgie, the utility of church musick, and the lawfulness of ceremonies : in which are mixed reasons justifying those godly ministers, who forbear the use of the Common-prayer, against the late out-cryes of the said bishop. / By H.D. M.A.	H. D. (Henry Dawbeny); Collinges, John, 1623-1690, attributed name.	1661 (1661)	Wing D449; Thomason E1086_14; ESTC R208152	100,305	119

the time to make a new Lytugry the Common people would have thought it a new Religion they therefore translate the old Gregorian Missal leaving out the Prayers for the Pope and to Saints and for Saints departed and a few such things as could not be used without palpable Idolatry and translate the other Prayers in the Mass-Book out of Latine into English and these were some of them established by that Act 5 6. Ed. 6. Stat. 1. The truth of this any one that can understand Latine may convince himself of by comparing the Mass-Book with the Com. Pr. of Edw. 6. Where he will find betwixt 40. and 50. Collects translated verbatim and if he compares the other parts with the Roman Breviary the Roman Ritual and the Pontificale Romanum he will yet further see the truth of it XXIV Not indeed could it be imagined that those first Reformers should leave at that time all Ministers at liberty or to their own conceived Prayers when most of them were Papists in their hearts generally so sottishly ignorant and insufficient that they could not have done any thing Which very cause held in Qu. Eliz. time where 1 El. c. 2. the Common Prayer was with some further emendations specified in the Statute 5 Eliz c 28. again imposed In the 5th year of her Reign by Act of Parliament the Common Prayer was ordered to be translated into Welch and used in Wales And this is the true Story both of Lyturgies in the General and the English Lyturgy in special XXV By this time the Reader who hath not a mind to revive Pythagoras his School again and to sacrifice his Reason to an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 believe every thing that is told him before he hath tried the truth of it may see reason to desire the present L. Bish of Exeter to tell him if he can where those same ancient models of Lyturgies not Roman Bish Hall Remonstr p. 13. but Christian and contrived by the holy Martyrs and Confessors of the blessed Reformation of Religion are to be found The Remonstrant was challenged to make it good out of ancient Models but thought fit to wave the business in his Reply It hath been the old Plea but let them prove it if they can saith Didoclavius Or if his present Lordship of Exeter doth not think fit to answer for another yet it is reason that he should justifie his own words He hath told us in p. 8. of his Considerations touching the Lyturgy That The Ancient Churches from the very first Century did use such-publick wholsom Forms of found words in their Sacramental celebrations especially and afterwards in other holy Administrations or publick duties as made up their solemn devout and publick Lyturgies which Patterns all Modern and Reformed Churches of any Renown have followed according to the many Scriptural Examples and Expressions in set Forms of Prayer Psalms Confessions and Benedictions commended to us by holy men in all ages and by Christ himself XXVI The world is grown too wary to believe any thing of this because any one saith so and the Doctor is too wise to undertake to prove this Let him prove That Christ prescribed the Lords Prayer for a Form or that the Apostles ever used it so 2. Let him prove that in any of the four first Centuries there was any Stated Forms of Prayer used in the Church 3. Let him prove that any Modern Reformed Churches imposed any Forms of Prayer so that those and no other might be used And 4 That they did this after the Pattern of the Ancient Churches from the first Century All these things are to be proved nor is it possible to prove them XXVII In the 18th p. of that Discourse he tels us That Dr. Gaudens Consider p. 19. It is a Jesuitical Artifice and back-blow used by some to aver though falsely That the English Lyturgy was nothing else but the Romish Missal or Mass-book turned into English 'T is true he saith some things very scriptural devout and excellent which the Roman Missal had taken and retained after the ancient Form of Lyturgies of the Church were severed and taken as Wheat from Chaffe and Jewels from Dross by our wise Reformers and preserved in the English Lyturgy conform to pious and unspotted Authority We challenge Dr. Gauden and all others of his mind to make this good if they can It is true there are some things in the English Lyturgy that are not in the Gregorian Missal But let any one take Missale Romanum both the old one and that established by the Council of Trent Breviarium Romanum Rituale Romanum and Pontificale Romanum and compare them all with the printed Com. Prayer-book of 5 6 E. 6. and then judge whether he can find a 6th part of the latter which is in none of the former If he finds that there is very little added let him the learn how to trust men talking after such a magisterial rate and annexing no proofs of their words XXVIII If the Reader finds it true that whatsoever Dr. Gauden saith there is in our English Lyturgy as it is commonly exposed to sale very little but what is to be found in the Mass-book in Latine let him then go to the Bishop of Exeter and desire him for his credit sake to shew him those ancient Forms of Lyturgy used in the Church out of which these Forms of Prayer were transcribed and taken which must be immediately after the first Century or tell him what that same pious and unspotted authority is If he tels him it is Pope Gregories which he must if he speaks truth let him tell him that he hath heard that he was a vile wretch accused for a Murtherer the Father of most of the superstitious usages now in the Church of Rome one who understood not the Greek Tongue as himself confesseth a man of no admirable Judgment witness his pretented Commentaries upon Job which might have as well been upon the Revelation a man very far from being either pious or unspotted or fit for his Seat one that defended Purgatory that fawned upon Phocas the Murderer in short one of no deserved Name or Authority in the Church of God XXIX By this Discourse it appears that there was no Lyturgy directing Forms of Prayers for the Church till Pope Gregories time Anno 600. nor any imposed till the time of Charles the Great Anno 800. when all manner of superstitious usages were brought into the Church nor was it then imposed without a Persecution attending it And this Reader is the pious and unspotted Authority the Bishop tels thee of From hence thou wilt also conclude the antiquity of the English Lyturgy the reason of its first being imposed and no further reformed either by K. Edw. or by Qu. Elizabeth In King James his time it received some additions what Reformation we cannot tell XXX By all this Discourse it appeareth that there is no divine Prescript no Apostolical

a Nation can oblige the conscience in matters of Divine VVorship and most certain that they cannot oblige any mans conscience to do any thing in the worship of God that is either directly or by consequence forbidden there we make it a great question whether the Common-prayer Book be established by Law or no and believe the contrary That the Common-prayer Book 5. 6. Edw. 6. with some alterations made 1 Eliz. 2. was so established we know but what that book was or where it is we cannot tell it is apparent that the books ordinarily walking up and down are not so established VI. Suppose it were we do not think that this is pleadable in the Case against the Covenant agreed by Lords and Commons legally assembled in Parliament and so far ratified by the King as unquestionably in conscience would suffice to discharge any that shall keep it though contrary to some former Act of Parliament VII Nor can it enter into our thoughts that the Parliament or any power under Heaven can by any future Act discharge us from the obligation of an Oath for out parts those Divines that talk any such things seem to us little acquainted either with the vvord of God or with the nature of an Oath Not with the former for God expresly Numb 30. determines the Oath established for ever if the husband of the wife or father of the child either at first consented or did not presently dissent but hold his peace nor with the latter for all Divines determine it in the power of men to ingage men in an Oath to God but not in their power to discharge them again because the Oath makes us debtors to God and it belongs to God alone to discharge us which especially holds where the matter of the Oath is such as Gods Law required and for which an Oath is onely a security and certainly such is the matter of Reformation and the rooting out of Superstition and the promoving the power of Godliness The Powers of the world in such a case may contract guilt to themselves by forcing such as fear an Oath to suffer because they durst not violate their Oath but they can never lay hold on mens Consciences by any Act of that nature so as to make them sinners if they do not actively obey Nay it is far better in such cases and in all cases to obey God rather than men CHAP. XI Other Reasons why divers Ministers are not satisfied as to the Use of the Book of Common Prayer I. CErtainly in reason if a Lyturgy or Form of Prayer be commended to any Church it should be such a well composed and compleatly digested Pattern of Prayer as should contain in it the sum of all things to be ordinarily confessed or begged or for which thanks should be given and this drawn up in such plain expressions as should be obvious to every hearer and yet so handsomly as should reconcile the hearers reverence and attention to it The Confession should be of the guilt of all Original sin as well originans as originatum the guilt of Actual sins The Petitionary part should consist of Petitions for a sight and sense of sin Faith Justification a sense of it Regeneration c. And all these should be in such a form as no Hearer should have a reasonable exception to II. Thus we are sure it would best fit two if not the only ends for which there can be any pretence of the necessity of a Lyturgy 1. The acquainting of people with the Doctrine of the Church as to things necessary to be believed and the prevention of Errours 2. The helping the weakness of ill accomplished Divines who are not able ex tempore so to pray in a Congregation by which means possibly their people never hear a just Confession of sins nor put up perfect Supplications III. Now it is possible that if the Bishop of Exeter who hath indeed a rare art at words may have liberty to comment upon our Lyturgy he may prove that such as understand as much as himself may from our Lyturgy fancy such a perfection of Form and by Arguments and far-fetched consequences make out all these but surely none can say that take the ordinary Prayers appointed to be read every Morning Prayer or Evening Prayer they do contain all things requisite to be confessed or petitioned for in so plain and familiar expressions that ordinary people can understand that in those Prayers we confess the guilt of Adams sin Original sin c. or petition for such things as are absolutely necessary Nay we believe that if they did some that are great Zealots for the use of them would not so well like them IV. Besides that the matter of some things in the Lyturgy is not in our judgments so approvable we do not understand with what truth we can say to God eight daies together that he sent his Son to redeem us as on that day nor yet as to any one particular day Nor yet how we can pray in Faith to be delivered from Lightning Tempests and sudden death we understand how we may pray in Faith to be delivered from the evil of these temporal judgments and from the judgments themselves if it be the Lords Will c. V. We by experience find that the Form of the Service prescribed in the English Lyturgy is such to which the Spirits of sober people are no waies reconcileable who cannot understand what foundation is either in Scripture or right reason for the using particular Prayers for each day or dividing the entire Service of God betwixt Ministers and People or for using so many shreds or ends of Prayer or repeating the Lords Prayer so often Nor can we our selves be more satisfied with it Mr. Sparrowes Rationale in this case to us seems to have as little reason in it as Durantus his Rationale hath for all the superstitious usages of the idolatrous Synagogue of Rome Et canpare pares respondere parati Neither of the Barrels have in it better Herrings VI. Now for us being so graciously indulged by his Majesty to scandalize all those people whom we must scandalize seemeth to us not lawful considering how tender St. Paul was of giving offence to brethren how light a matter soever be now made of it especially considering the observation which we make which we cannot say is universally true but as to our Congregations is generally true and that is this That many of the persons offended at our forbearance of the Lyturgy are not of the stricter but the looser sort of Professors such as his Majesty hath justly stigmatized in his Proclamation as vicious prophane and debaucht persons Drunkards Tavern-haunters Health-drinkers Swearers not that they are all such but ten for one we find to be such and we as generally observe That those of our Parishioners who fear an Oath who live chastly temperately and soberly and by any Rule are generally not desirous of the use of the Lyturgy

affectus interiores orantis aut exhortantis liberè in verba Nam ut assiciat auditores oportet ipsum assici non autem afficitur ut debet qui semper eisdem verbis orat aut exhortatur It is an usual saying and may be true enough Optimus Orator non nondum nascitur To say that either for matter or phrase there was never any Prayers made like to those and that no such can be made are strange extravagant and hyperbolical expressions by no means either to be justified or demonstrated In short those Forms of words in Prayer are undoubtedly best for the Speakers use which come most from the intention of his mind and fervency of his Spirit As to others joyning with him those are best which most affect the Hearers hearts That these or any Forms upon this account do so is not demonstrable For the Form of Consecration of the Lords Supper in the English Lyturgy we cannot find any Form for it which we think an high Omission we do conceive that the Consecration should be by reading the words of Institution taking and breaking the Bread and then blessing it We find only a Form of Prayer for a Blessing upon the Elements and not so much as a Rubrick directing the Minister at that time to read the words of Institution or to take and break the Bread As for the words used in the delivery of the Sacrament we find them without any warrant from Gods Word turned into Prayers So that the Bishop might have spared the commending of this Part of the Lyturgy where we think is a more considerable Omission of what should be there than he can instance in in our administrations or then the omission of those words Receive the Holy Ghost in Ordination is especially when we know no such power any Ministers have now to give the Holy Ghost as the Apostles had and can easily distinguish betwixt the Apostles ordinary Act in Ordination and their extraordinary Act in giving the Holy Ghost to the latter of which none can now pretend For the Ancientry of these Forms we have shewed it before they are not of age enough to speak for themselves and to plead their gray hairs for their continuance XX. To say That without the authoritative imposing of this or any other Lyturgy Truth and Peace can never be established is irrationally guessed nor can there he any pretence for it Certainly truth is far better preserved by a full and sound Confession of Faith in a Form of sound words in which all are agreed and we should be content to read a short summary of it every Lords day to subscribe own defend it that it should be subscribed and sworn by all Commencers in Universities by all to be ordained or admitted into livings by all admitted to Sacraments how an imposed Liturgie should do half so much nay how it should do any thing at all to preserve Truth we cannot guess XXI For Peace we have had the experience of an 100. years to prove the contrary sure we are that we may thank the Imposing of the Liturgie in former times for all our Brownists Anabaptists Quakers Familists Sectaries of all sorts Their Leaders first separated from the Church for the Common-prayer Book and Ceremonies then set up for themselves and being themselves unskilful in the Word of Righteousness easily perverted others And we are sure that there are now 100. for every one that distasted these things in 1640. both Ministers and people how the reimposing should bring us to Peace poseth us to prophecy It may bring many thousands of persons to ruine for not conforming driving them into other lands giving their malitious adversaries advantages to fill prisons with them but Peace it can never bring XXII We observe that all Reformed Churches where are no such imposings of Liturgies have more plenty of able Divines considering the proportion of their ground more zealous defenders of Truth fewer Hereticks and Schismaticks then ever England had at any time when the Liturgie was most rigorously imposed Nor is it reasonable to imagine that we should ever have any peace in the Church if the former Liturgie be imposed but continual separations from the Church and violent prosecutions of those whole consciences for the reasons aforesaid will never allow them to use it XXIII So that we humbly crave leave to retort this as an Argument against the Imposing either this or any other Liturgie It s being inconsistent with the peace of this Church And we most humbly beseech His most Excellent Majesty the Noble Lords and the Gentlemen of England seriously to consider Whether there being no command in Scripture nor particular warrant for any imposings of this nature no president of the primitive Church in any part for 400 years after Christ there being also such a plenty of Godly able Ministers in England So many times ten thousand of Godly Christians who cannot allow themselves in the worship of God by forms of prayer and who have taken so great a scandal at these forms in particular and that for reasons above mentioned It can consist either with Piety in them to enjoyn what is so highly offensive when St. Paul professeth so much tenderness to his weak brethren or with Policy to enjoyn that in which they cannot but know that many thousands will be found who durst not actively Obey but will think themselves bound to suffer So that they will be constrained in pursuance of their honour commanding such things to erect Courts direct prosecutions of persons only blameable in this matter of their God and such who are ready by any Act or Oath to secure their Allegiance to his Majesty by any Action to express it paying tributes and customes for conscience sake daily praying for all the blessings of heaven and earth for his Majesty and this with far more cordiality then others drink His healths Or whether such proceedings be like to produce Peace in the Church or rather everlasting divisions animosities and constant prosecutions of sober Christians concerning the equity of which the Just Judge of the whole earth must one day enquire And in the mean time these Impositions to be of no further considerable use then to help ignorant persons unfit for the Ministry and such as are lazy and negligent and make no conscience to stir up the gift of God in them We humbly leave this to our Superiours to determine XXIV The questions as to piety are 1. Whether pious Magistrates can according to principles of piety command and enforce those things which Gods Word doth not command in his worship being openly offensive to multitudes of Godly people 2. Whether they can acquit their soules to God in making Laws to fine disturb imprison banish c. multitudes of their Subjects for no other crime then this that they cannot limit themselves to forms of prayer in Gods Worship And suppose these two things were consistent with Piety yet whether Policy would direct it is another