list but haue no cause R. VVas not your Father and Grandfather and their Fathers before them for many ages Papists C. What of that they who in regard of time and truth were long before them and should be followed as Fathers to vs and them both were Protestants R. That is but a shift of your owne C. It is no shift it is a truth and you shall see it your selfe if you will consider who were Pauls Fathers whom he saies he followed in the worshipping of God R. What were the names of his Fathers were I cannot tell but I see they haue been Israelites of the Tribe of Beniamin C. We haue not that to stand vpon what they were for their persons or names either but what was their Religion remember you not that hee sayes himselfe he was brought vp at the feet of Gamaliâ—l R. Yea I doe C. Tell mee now of what Religion was Gamaliâ—l R. I see he hath been a Pharesie C. And think you that Saint Paul when hee made his Apologie worshipped God after the manner of Pharesies R. I thinke it not C. How then sayes hee that he worshipped God after the maner of his Fathers seeing his Fathers were Pharesies R. I thinke he meanes not of these fathers who liued last before him but transcending them he passes vp to his elder fathers Abraham Isaack Iacob C. Was hee not then wrongfully accused of noueltie as one who had forsaken the religion of his fathers because hee forsooke the Religion of such Fathers as liued last before him R. I thinke so indeede His Apologie cleares him sufficiently both of heresie and noueltie which his aduersaries would haue imputed to him C. Now Sir I haue you where I would why should not the like Apologie cleare vs in the like case for albeit we haue foresaken the heresies of Papistrie maintained by them that liued last before vs yet doe wee worship the Lord our God as these fathers did whom Iustin Martyr callâ—s Patres Patrum whom with him we will prefer to any posterior fathers whatsoeuer R. That cannot be seeing it is known it is not threescore yeers since your Religion came into this Country C. No Sir I will make known to you that it is 1500 yeeres since this same Religion preached and professed now was then preached and professed by our Ancient fathers The first Religion that euer we had was gentilisme our fathers worshipped Diana the Sun the Moone the Starres R. That was a pittifull blindnesse C. So it was indeed but in the first hundreth yeere we embraced Christianity and eight hundreth yeere after Christ we were infected with Papistrie and now againe hath God called vs by the light of the gospel to our ancient Religion of Christianity whereby wee worshippe the Father in his sonne according to his word and no other way R. You speake faire enough to it be as it will but if it be true that you say then would you be in communion with the Catholike Church C. And so thanks to God we are reioycing as I said vnto you that the Lord by his Gospell hath called vs to bee Christian Catholikes R. That is alsoâ— a new stile of your owne that you will bee called Christian Catholikes C. If you were acquainted with antiquity you would not call it new with many such nouelties you charge vs which are indeed ancient truthes it is eleuen hundreth yeeres since in the seuenth Councell of Carthage professors of the Gospell were called Catholike Christians R. But to let the style passe how can you say you are in coÌ„munion with the Catholike Church seeing you haue made separationâ— from the Romane Church and refuse to bee stiled Roman Catholikes C. The Romane Church in her best estate was neuer more but a member of the Catholike Church and there is no more reason to cal the Roman church the Catholike Church nor to say that Rome is all Italy or Paâ—â—s is all France but now seeing the Roâ—an Church hath plaied the Whore made a shameful Apostasie from her first estate wee haue done no wrong in seperating from her but for our warrant haue Gods owne Proclamation commanding vs to doe so R. Where haue you that Proclamation C. There it is Come out of Babell my people R. But no word is there of Rome C. I shall proue to you that this Babel is Rome and your own Doctors cannot deny it R. If you make all good you haue said I will say no more but there is many one beguiled C. If you will heare mee by Gods grace I shall make it good R. I will not refuse to heare you and I trust also to answere you C. It is not me you shall hear but the voice of the Gospell which if it were heard at Rome I am of that mind the Popes kingdome should not long continue R. It will bee hard for you to get hearing there C. And why since Sodomits there haue their brothels and Iewes haue their Synagogues wherein they curse Christ why may not Protestants bee tolerated to haue a Church wherein to preach R. Good sooth they loue you worse then any of them I thinke it true for onâ— Deuill can dwell well inough with an other yea a legion of them in one man but none of them will giue place to Christ. But tell me how long God willing mind you to stay in this towne R. I hope to be in it all this weeke C. Then I pray you let vs spare euery day one howre or two for conference and I will come to you to your owne chamber R. Agreed am I and let our conference to morow continue about antiquitie for I think it somewhat strange that you should pretend it C. Well let it be so THE FIRST DAYES CONFERENCE Concerning Antiquitie in General R. WElcome Sir I see you are a true man and keepe promise C. What I am not in good faine would I be R. Thinke you not best we begin where wee left yesternight C. Yea indeede R. What say you then of Antiquitie will you not graunt that to bee the true Church which hath the most auncient Doctrine C. That is a thing out of all question the Doctrine which is most ancient I embrace and beleeue to be most true R. You will myre your selfe incontinent for these which yee call corruptions in the Church of Rome some of them will be found a thousand yeares old C. What is that to the matter Seeing the truth whereby we condemne these corruptions will be found elder then they and wee to speake with Vincentius wil euer preferre the olde Faith to new vnfaithfulnesse for if you thinke this a good Argument Such a doctrine or ceremonie should be receiued because it is one thousand and two hundred yeares old then by the same reason the heresies of Simon Magus must bee receiued for a truth because they were taught by him one thousand and sixe hundred yeares since R. But said you not euen now you would acknowledge that to
Antiquitie we shall make the Church a brothell of filthie and abominable errours which before was a Temple of chaste and vndefiled veritie where as the Church of Christ should bee a diligent keeper of the doctrine deliuered to it changing nothing diminishing nothing adding nothing Now these are the words of Vincentius and I demand of you out of the light of your conscience if you can gaine-say them R. In truth it is a pretie discourse and I embrace all that he hath said as a truth C. Aduise you thâ—n yet what yee wil say for the Church of Rome since it can not bee denied they haue changed diminished and added to the ancient Catholicke faith Some ceremonies and opinions they haue which Antiquitie knewe not some the ancient Church had which they haue pared away and in a word haue so change that in Rome is nothing anciâ—nt but the name R. That seemes very hard For though in some ceremonies there bee adding paring and chaunging yet I can not thinke it is in substance C. You are farre deceiued for they haue made a change in the substance R. Wherein C. In the maine point of saluation as now among many I will shew you by this one What Diuinitie is this to teach people to pray that God would bring them to Heauen by an other blood then Christs blood R. O that can not be C. Nay maruaile not there is the Prayer of their owne Masse booke Tu per Thomae sanguinem quem ille pro te pendit fac nos Christe scandere quò Thomas ascendit R. I haue not heâ—rd of that for my owne part I would bee loath to chaunge the blood of the couenant or to disgrace it so farre as to ioyne any other with it C. The more wise are you for it is by Christs blood Onely that reconciliation is made But what thinke yee of confidence should wee put considence in any but in God R. No truely C. What a Prayer is this theÌ„ Inua ergo omnes gentes In te Sancte confidentes Confessor Armigile And is not Prayer thinke you and Inuocation a speciall point of Gods seruice R. So it is C. Why then is it giuen to Saints and that Psalter which containes Prayers praises to God all turned ouer to the Virgine Marie Should mens traditions to whome God by his heauenly oracle hath not borne testimonie be receiued Pari pietatis affectu reuerentiâ with like deuotion and reuerence as the word of God R. Who sayes that C. The Councell of Trent Should the foure Councels bee receiued as the foure Euangelists or should the Canon Law and decretall Epistles bee receiued as Canonicall Scripture R. I know not what that is C. Then I will tell you Twelue hundreth yeares after Christ Gratian a Benedictine Monke gathered together the sentences of Councels Fathers and Popes concerning sundrie matters of Religion and set it forth which is commonly called Decretum and after him certain Popes as Gregory the ninth Boniface the eight Clemens the fift Iohn the twentie two following the example of Gratian haue gathered the like These are called Decretals and Extrauagants added to Decretum all of them make vp the Canon law which now must bee equalled with the word and all to bee receiued as if Peter his owne mouth had pronounced them Is not this against the golden rule of Vincentius to mixe noueltie with Antiquitie What say you to it R. In truth I can not iudge of that which I know not C. I will giue you but one Decrete of this law and let you see how it strikes the Apostle S. Paul in the teeth that by it you may iudge of the rest Secundam accipere vxorem secundùm Apostoli praeceptum licitum est secundum autem veritatis rationem verè fornicatio est Second marriage â—ccording to the Apostles precept is lawful but according to the truth of reason is plaine fornication I am not now to dispute whether Church-men may Marrie or not themselues grant it is not forbidden neither by Legall nor Apostolicall authoritie yet they will forbid it But what Diuinitie is this According to the Apostles precept it is lawfull to Marrie but according to truth and reason it is Whoredome that is as they would saye according to the word of God in the Bible it is true but according to the word of God in the Canon Law written twelue hundreth yeares after Christ it is false Did the Apostle giue any precept without reason or truth How dare they call that vnlawfull which the Apostle cals lawfull Wâ—e be to them who call good euill You hold silence at these things and no maruaile for I thinke no honest man can approoue them But to return to things of great importance I assure you the onely question and controuersie in Religion this day may be taken vp in this question Is Iesus the Sonne of Mary the Christ Or as the Baptist takes it vp Art thou hee who is come or shall wee looke for an other R. I thinke no man will denie that C. Yea the Turke and Pagane say such Christ as Christians beleeue is neither come nor wil come the Iewes say hee is not come but hee will come The Catholicke Romane in word confesseth him but in deede denies him Quem praedicant impugnant both in his Person and Offices R. That is a strange assertion such as I haue not heard C. It is strange indeede and I would wee had no cause to charge them with it but beecause it is the most weightie point whereof yet wâ— haue spoken wee will referre it to bee handled in a meeter time R. I am content prouiding you forget not to make that good which you haue said C. If I forget I pray remember me And now this Dispute about Antiquitie I conclude with IGNATIVS Mihi antiquitas est Iesus Christus cui non obedire manifestus est irremissibilis interitus Epist. ad Philadelphos My Antiquitie is Iesus Christ to disobey him is manifest and remedilesse destruction and with that which Aâ—gustine said to the Pelagians Quia isti disserunt disputant nescio quas impias nouitates etiam nos conantur arguere quòd aliquod nouum dicamus Because these fâ—llowes maintaine certaine impious nouelties they also goe about to charge vs as if wee did teach any new thing But of this if you please you shall heare more R. It pleaseth me very well I shall attend your comming if you may at seuen howres C. Let it be so THE SECOND DAYES CONFERENCE Concerning the Antiquitie of the Church of SCOTLAND and how the Church of ROME in her best estate was but a sister not a mother Church vnto it C. WHat say you to day Sir haue you considered the points of our last conference R. Yea I haue beene as I may thinking vpon them C. What Is not your heart mooued to come to vs R. I find it mooued but not remooued from the Church
be most true which is most ancient C. I say that same yet And that you may conceiue it the better I pray you consider that truth and errour suppose they came not of the same parents yet in regard of time they are like two twinnes but the vantage of time that is truth hath it suppose very little R. I pray you let me heare that at more length for I see it will greatly helpe to cleare this point C. Will you goe vp to the Church in Paradise and you shall see the first voice that sounded there was Gods voice For in the first two Chapters of Genesis you will heare nothing but Deus dixit God said but incontinent in the third Chapter comes in Et Serpens dixit and the Serpent said R. I see that clearely C. And I am glad you doe so But I pray you consider wil any man be so mad as to thinke that Sathans lies shall bee receiued for a truth because they are now neere sixe thousand yeares old R. It were no reason indeed because albeit his lies â—ee olde yet as you haue said there is a Truth elder C. I pray you remember that that it may confirme you against the craft of Sathan when hee would couer errour with a shew of Antiquitie R. I hope to doe so C. Now will yee come down againe to the dayes of Christ Iesus may you not see that when our Lord sent out his Apostles Sathan also sent out his false Apostles and when Simon Peter comes out to Preach the Gospell Simon Magus is stirred vp to Preach heresies R. I see that also C. Then let vs agree in this since Truth is to bee sought from our fathers according as we are commanded Enquire for the good and olde way we will goe seeke it from our most ancient fathers R. Truely it caries with it I thinke a reason that we should not be mooued with the opinion of any father where they varie from the doctrine of the first fathers C. You speake now as you should and as before I shewed you was the mind of that ancient father Iustine Martyr when it was obiected to him such a father thought such a thing he answered Sed pater patrum Apostolus aliter sensit And herein to confirme you if controuersies of Religion were decided as our Sauiour decided the question of Polygamie the debate betweene vs and the Romish Church were soone ended R. How did Christ resolue that controâ—ersie of Polygamie C. By this rule It was not so from the beginning Leauing this to vs as a maxime in Religion and a most sure rule whereby to trie truth from falshood What hath not beâ—ne from the beginning let it bee reiected as a noueltie And herein the ancient fathers agree with vs. Be yee sollowers of me saith the Apostle as I am of Christ if I or an Angel c. Mihi antiquitas Iesiâ— Christus est cui non obedire manifestus est irremissibilis interitus Ignat Epist. ad Philad Non attendendum quid quis ante nos faciendum putauerit sed quid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit Cypri lib. 2. Epist. 3. Neque enim hominis consueâ—udinem sed Deiveritatem sequi oportet Ibid. Non est de consuetudine praescribendum sed ratione vincendum Ad Quintinum Obstinatio est praesumptio humanam traditionem diuinae dispositioni anteponeâ—e nec animadvertere â—ndignaeri irasci deum quoties diuina praecepta soluit praeterit humana traditio Ad Pompeium Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris Ibid. Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus Ibid Frustrà quidam quiratione vincuntur consuetudinem nòbis opponunt qâ—asi conâ—uetudo sit mator verâ—â—â—â— â—d â—ubaâ—anum Nec 〈◊〉 nâ—c mâ—iorum erroâ— seqâ—â—â—â—â— eâ—â— sed auâ—horitas Scriptâ—râ—râ—â— â—â—i docem is imperâ—â—â—m 〈◊〉 â—â—â—iaei poâ—â— Baalim abieruns quos â—idicerunt a patribus Hieâ—on in lerem cap. 9. Omnes hâ—retici aetati Eccleâ—ie vniuer saâ—is comparati minores tempore congrue vocantur quia ipsi ab eâ non autem ipsa egressa est â—b illis Greg. in Iob. lib. 10. Sect. 37. Sicut in omnibus veritas imaginem antecedit postremò similitudo succedit ita prior veritas quam haeresis Tertul. praescrip aduersus haeret R. But what makes these against the Church of Rome C. Yea very much for all these nouelties which shee hath inuented and intruded into the Church she colours them with the shadow of ancient custome and so very craftily vnder the name of Antiquitie fights against Antiquitie R. It is not enough to affirme that vnlesse yee qualifie it C. I will make it cleare to you if first yee heare a notable testimonie oâ— Vincentius to this same purpose R. What sayes he C. It is a propertie of Christian modestie not to deliuer their owne things to the after-commers but to keepe things receiued from their fore-beers R. Very well that place makes â—gainst you who will not keepe the Religion of your fore-beers C. It makes not against vs but against the Church of Rome who hath departed from the Religion of them who are theirs and our foreâ—eerâ— also as the remnant of his words will declare vnto you R. Reade them out then C. Hee is expounding heere he Apostles words If I or an Angell from heauen should bring to you another doctrine then that which yee haue receiued let him be accursed R. What sayes hee of it C. These are his words If Peter if Andrew if Iohn yea if the whole Apostles would Preach to you an other way then is deliuered in the Gospell let them be accursed To Preach vnto Christian Catholickes besides â—hat which we haue receiued was neuer is neuer shall neuer be lawfull R. Let it bee so the Church of Rome hath deliuered no doctrine but that shee hath recâ—iued C. Yes but shee hath and now once for all I will giue you amongst many one cleare example of it In the thirteenth Session of the Councell of Constance as is Recorded by Carranza one of your owne and Registred in your Canon Law there is an Act made of this tenour Licet in Primitiuâ Ecclesiâ huiusmodi Sacramentum reciperetur a fidelibus sub vtraque specie tamen haec consuetudo ad euitandum aliqua pericula scandala est rationaâ—iliter introducta quòd a conficientibus sub vtraque specie a laicis tantummodo sub specie panis suscipiatur Albeit in the Primitiue Church this Sacrament was receiued of the faithful vnder both the kinds yet to eschewe some perils and offences this custome now with very good reason is brought in that the Priest should receiue it vnder both the kinds but the people should receiue the bread onely and not the cup. What thinke yee now of this place Hath not the Church of Rome here deliuered a Doctrine which shee hath not receiued Is there not heere a manifest changing
yeare Thetgandus Episcopus Treuirensis Pontificem Romanum Antichristum lupum vocat Romam Babylonem Cùm sis seruus seruorum dominus dominantium esse contendis libidine dominandi in praeceps â—bis quicquid tibilibet licet fucusque factus es Christianis There hee calles the Bishop of Rome Antichrist a Wolfe a vsurper of domination a deceiuer of Christâ—ndome and Rome he calles Babylon And the like at that same time was testified by Guntherus Episcopus Coloniensis ad Nicolaum Pontificem Romanum Tu pontificis personam praete fers at tyrannum agitas sub cultu pastoris lupuâ— sentimus titulus parentem mentitur tu te factis Iouem esse ostentas quum sis seruus seruorum dominus dominantium esse contendis Bernard saith Bestia illa in Apocalypsi cui datum est osloquens blasphemias bellum gerens cum sanctis Petri cathedram occupat tanquam leo paratus ad praedam The beast spoken of in the Reuelation hauing a mouth speaking blasphemies and which Warres against the Saints is now gotten into Peters Chaire as a Lion prepared for his prey What thinke yee of these words R. What should I thinke for my owne part I maruaile that the Pope did not burne Bernard for an hereticke C. So you may But heare yet moâ—e Ioâ—chimus Abbas who liued three hundred yeres since saith Antichristus iamdudum natus est Romae altiùs extolletur in sede Apostolicá Antichrist long since is borne in Rome and shall bee aduanced yet higher in the Apostolicke seate Franciscus Petrarcha Archdecon of Parma who liued in the thousand three hundreth and fiftie yeare Epist. 5.14 17 18 19 c. Compares the Pope to Iudas who betrayed Christ with a kisse his Clergie to the Iâ—wes who said to him Aue Rex Iudaeorum His Prelates to the Phariâ—ies â—ho in mockerie clothed him with Puâ—ple and after crucified him And againe Denie it now if thou canst That thou art shee whom S. Iohn saw in the spirit sitting vpon many waters Thou art shee and none other that Babylon the mother of the whoredomes of the earth drunken with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus thou art shee which hast made all Kings of the earth drunken with the Cups of thy poyson In the thousand and three hundreth yeare lib. 2. cap. 5 In Synodo Reginoburgensi habita est haec oratio â— quodam Episcopo contra pontificem Romanum Sub Pontificis maximi titulo pastoris pelle lupum saeâ—isâ—mum nisi caeci simus sentimus Romani slamines arma in omnes habent Christianos audendo fallendo bella ex bellis serendo magni facti oues trucidant occidunt pacem concordâ—am terris depellunt intestina bella domesticas seditiones ab inferis eliciunt indiès magis ac magis omnium vires debilitant vt omnium capitibus insultent omnes deuorent vniuersos in seruitutem redigant c. Ingentia loquitur quasi verò Deus esset noua consilia sub pectore volutat vt nouum sibi constituat imperium leges commutat suas sancit contaminâ—t diripit spoliat fraudat occidit perditus ille homo quem Antichristum vocare solent in cuius fronte coâ—tumeliae nomen scriptum est Deus sum errare non possum in templo Dei sedet longè lateque dominatur In the thousand and foure hundreth yeare lib. 1. cap. 4. Iohannes vicesimus tertius wrote vnto the Oriental Church an Epistle declaring that there was but one Christian Church onely and that hee was head thereof and the Vicar of Christ The Grecians wrote backe to him this answere Potentiam tuam summam erga subâ—itos tuos firmiter credimus superbiam tuam summam tolerare non possumus auaritiam explâ—re non valemus Diabolus tecum quia Dominus nobiscum Thy great power ouer thy Subiects we firmly beleeue thy surpassing pride we can not tolerate thy auarice wee are not able to satisfie the diuell is with thee for the Lord is with vs. R. God be mercifull to vs. C. Amen Now Sir I must craue your licence for some friends are attending mee with whome I appointed to meete this houre R. Good reason but before you goe I would fain he are an answer to two questions which commonly they demand C. Which are those R. The one is Where was your Church before Luther the other Are all our fathers damned C. With a very good will But if you please deferre the conference concerning them till to morrow R. Let it be so now the Lord bee with you THE FIFTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein the common question of the Aduersaries is aunswered Where was your Church before LVTHER C. NOw Sir you remember you propouÌ„ded two questions to me yesternight R. It is very true and I would gladly heare your answere to them for my further resolution What thinke you then because you call Papistrie heresie are you of that minde that all our fathers are damned that no Papist can be saued C. I am not to iudge of mens persons many are called Papists who know not what Papistrie meanes and many liue Papists who dare not die Papists or if so they doe they know not what they doe But Papistrie it selfe I affirme it is a pernicious doctrine yea as the Apostle cals it a doctrine of diuels killing the Soules of them who beleeue it But this is the second of your questions which we will reserue till the next day R. Let it be so What then say you to the first Where was your Church before Luther C. Euen where our doctrine was sometime in one Countrie sometime in an other as it pleased God in his wise dispensatiâ—n who caries the light of his Gospell as he doth the Sunne â—hrough the World to illuminate Nations at sâ—uerall times therewith according to his will R. That is a faire Generall but will yee tell vs who were these What Countrie people What Doctors who taught as yee teach R. Looke the Churches of Asia Asricke and of Europe consider them as they were before the mysterie of iniquitie came to the hight and you shal see that they all had the same doctrine and forme of a Church that we haue in all substantiall points pertaining to Religion R. But you are not able to name one before Luther teaching in all things as he did C. This is a peece of Sophistrie whereby your deceiuers blind the ignorant R. How so should not the teachers of the truth agree in al things in one harmonie C. I grant they should and thanks be to God they doe also in al substantial things which are Articles of our faith But is this a good reason because some Doctors in some opinions differ whereof men may bee ignorant and saued neuerthelesse that therefore these Doctors teach no truth and their Churches are no true Churches R. That seemes to bee hard indeed C. You haue reason for you so to thinke for in one age Viâ—tor with the Church in the West was in a
different opinion from Policrates and the Churches of the East and Ierome had his owne discordance with Augustine against the exposition of the commandement Thou shalt beare no false witnesse in that question de mendacio and the first Fathers of the Primitiue Church were Chiliasts shall it thereupon follow that because in this point they taught not in all things as we doe that therefore they were not a Church R. It is no reason C. Cyprian in the point of rebaptising taught not as Cornelius what of that will it follow that hee was not a faithfull Pastor or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church R. It followes not indeed C. Why then doe you vrge me to giue you one before Luther or Caluin who in all points taught as we teach The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent are men subiect to infirmities for no man vpon earth hath his vnderstanding perfect whereof it comes to passe that in some things one of them differs from an other But as to the Articles of the faith and substance of Christian religion whereby comes saluation sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian Ambrose Aâ—gustine Luther and Caluin haue all deliuered oâ—e doctrine and did teach the way of God truly R. Theâ— you thinke the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were of your Religion C. I think sâ— indeed hope to die in that same faith whereâ—â— they liued and died R. It would bee thought strange to heare that in Italie that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church were of the Protestants Religion C. No maruell it be strange there where Truth is a stranger but this answere was giuen you and them both by a worthy Doctor of our Church and wee yet stand to it Patres in maximis sunt nostri in multis varij â—n minimis vestri Such Fathers as haue written before vs and you both in greatest things are ours in many thinges are doubtfull in smallest thinges they are yours R. Well I shall remember that God willing but in the dayes of Papistrie wherewith you say the world was blinded where was your Church C. Answere me but an other question and it shall resolue you R. What is that C. Your Doctors say that when Antichrist shall come the Church shall â—lie to the desert that is as themselues expound it The Church shall bee without publike state of regiment and open free exercise of holy functions neither shall it bee unknowne to the faithfull which follow it as this day may bee seene the like by the Church of Romane Catholiques in many parts of England R. What doth that helpe you C. Very much that which they themselues say will bee done wee say is done Antichrist hath alreadie chased the Church to the wildernesse and so oppressed it that for a time it had no publike state of regiment nor open free exercise of holy functions yet was it not vnknowne to the faithfull that followed it nor to the enemies that persecuted it as this day may bee seene by the Church of Christian Catholikes in many parts of France R. Will ye make that cleare and I thinke you haue wonne much C. What greater clearenesse can you craue If this answere bee good to cleare the Popes Church when they say it will bee obsâ—ured by Antichrist and yet be is it not as good to iustifie our Church when we say it hath beene obscured by Antichrist and yet was R. The answere is good enough only if you can I would haue you qualifie it more particularlâ— C. There is not one age since the dayes of Christ vnto this day wherein I can not point forth men preaching and professing as wee doe but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistry I will let you see it is a needlesse question for the Popes Church to demand of vs where our Church then was for they found vs alwaies in their teeth before euer Luther or Caluin was borne R. Make that good C. Remeâ—us a Popish Inquisitor who liued more then three hundred yeeres agoe speaking of the poore men of Lyons and calling them in contempt Valdenses Leonistae sayth they were more pernitious to the Church of Rome then all other sects foâ— three causes First because it hath beene of longer continuance for some say this sect hath endured since the Apostles times The second cause is because it is more generall for there is almost no land in the which this Sect doth not creepe The third cause for that all other sectes doe bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God but this Sect of Leonists hath a great shew of godlinesse because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all thinges well concerning God and all the Articles which are contained in the Creede onely they blaspheme hate the Church of Rome Now there is the testimony of an enemy making answer for vs which may serue to stop the mouthes of all our enemies from demanding of vs any more Where was your Church before Luther R. I but hee calles them a Sect and saies they blasphemed the Church C. So the Priests of the Iews called the Church of Christians a Sect of Nazarits Act. 24.5 What is that to the matter yet he grants they are such a Sect as first had beene from the beginning secondly had beene in all Countries thirdly was honest in lise sound in faith saue onely that they helde the Church of Rome to be the whore of Baâ—el And that yet this preiudice which you haue conceiued of our Church may bee further remoued out of your mind I pray you consider this Think you not that with good reason we may affirme that we are in communion with them who haue taught the same doctrine that we teach if our doctrine was in former ages you will not deny that our Church was then also R. That can not bee denied C. Well then if you please name mee any controuersie of religion concerning any Article of faith betweene vs and the Papists thiâ— day and you shall see that the ancient fathers take our part in it R. That is strange for they repose their chiefest strength trust in the ancient fathers C. Bragge what they will it is true I say they may well boast in the drosse of fathers decke their errors with it but wee shall bring you their finest gold Name you the controuersie you shall trie that which I say to bee a truth R. There are so many controuersies among you that I know not which of theÌ„ to name first C. Then will it please you to take a view of these which I haue gathered for my own priuate vse R. With a very good will let me see what they are C. They are here in a little sâ—role and I haue collected theÌ„ for my owne confirmation in the faith for as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scriptures so finding that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church exponed