Places which you so ofte and thicke Expound your own meaninge if we M. 〈◊〉 haue missed doe bring againste the Pope are odious at the firste hearinge but when they shall be Considered and Answered either they shall he founde not to be so as you reporte either els to haue a true and Christian sense in them Therefore to presse vs w t them out of Place Season that we should not intend to answer theÌ„ that they so 〈◊〉 away for the present without Answer might hinder our cause in the iudgement of many a Reader it was craftely done and vnhonestlye As on the other side if you God wote meante no harme at all but without all immoderate Affection or Crafty cumpasse went plainely and directly forwarde in your matters only that your Replie might be full then haue you done grosselye and vnorderly To be shorte whatsoeuer and howsoeuer the causes be the Indifferent Reader may iudge of y e Effect and perceaue that they are vndoubted Digressions whiche you haue made from the question to Canons and the Gloses vpon theÌ„ and which I burden you withall And I burden you herewithall so much the more iustely and ernestly M. Iew. finâ—â—th fault with digressioÌ„s because your selfe are so Rigorous vppon lesse Occasion or none at all againste D. Hardinge For when he in the Article of Priuate Masse did put it as a sure Ground that the Masse or Vnbloudye Sacrifice was so manye wayes to the Proued that you coulde not withstande the Catholykes therein Hard. Fol. 25. And towched shortelye in a Leafe and a half the Authorities which dydde serue that Purpose of whiche he might haue made A Iuste Treatise and neuer haue gone byside hys Purpose yet that litle whiche he spake greeueth you so much that you say It is a simple kinde of Rhetorike Iew. p 12 to vse so large digressions frome the matter before ye once enter into the matter As who should say that the Author of a Treatise might not take what Order he would Or that to speake of the Masse were an Impertinent thinge to Priuate Masse Or that in the discussing of a compound it were not lawfull to open the nature of y e simple Or when two things are at one tyme yet couertly impugned to shew that the one of them standeth vppon sure ground thereby to discumforte the Aduersarie After like sorte of quarrelling whereas D. Harding concluded that Single Communion was not only suffered in tyme of persecution Hard. 38. but also allowed in quiet peaceable tymes euen in the Churche of Rome it selfe where true Religion hath euer bene moste exactly obserued caet M. Iewel greately offended herewith all and merueilinge as it were at the Matter But why doth M. Hardinge sayeth he Iew. 5â— thus out of reason rush into the Church of Rome that was longe agoe But why say you so M. Iewel Doth not the Argument which he maketh require that he should commend that See For Rome itselfe allowed sayeth he paiâ—ate Masse ergo it is the lesse to be douted of Whiche Argument because it will at these dayes seeme the worse the more that it dependeth of the Authoritie of that See could he doe lesse then bring one testimonie in the praise thereof and call you this a Russhing in thereto out of season But what should he haue done by your fyne aduise Mary say you See the malice to speake il of Rome he taketh it to be to some purpose and to speake wel therof he coÌ„pteth it out of season It had bene more to the purpose to haue vewed the state of the same Church as it standeth now Had it so And you being so Maliciously and wickedly disposed would the Authoritie thereof as it is now haue preuailed with you Lette anie indifferent man be Iudge whether it had bene aptlye done of D. Harding in warrantinge of Sole Receauinge as alowed in Rome to commend y â— ConsequeÌ„ce by telling the faults which may be founde in that Citie nowe rather then the testimony of the Bishopes of all Gallia whiche within the six hundred yeres after Christe acknowleged that from thence came the Fountaine and spring of theyr Religion Againe let any Indifferent man iudge whether M. Iewell hath Answered this prayse of the Bisshoppes of Gallia geauen so longe agoe vnto the Churche of Rome by his Accusinge of Bisshoppes Cardinales and Priestes Or by Lamentinge the case of Rome as S. Bernarde dyd Or by makinge of Prouerbes vppon it as Euripides sometyme dyd of the Citie of Athens Surely in this very place Is this the liberty of the Gospell or the Charitye of your Sprites where without cause he reproueth his Aduersarie for commendinge out of season as he iudgeth the See of Rome it is a greate shame to Rushe into Discommendation of Bisshoppes Cardinals and Priestes attendinge vppon that See And to like it better to Examine and Iudge the Present 〈◊〉 of Rome then to remember the Auncient Dignitie and Vertue thereof to confirmation of suche pointes as in those dayes were by it alowed Other places and Signes thâ—re are out of which I doe gather that M. Iewel can not abide Digressions as when he sayeth This Question is out of course Iew. 149 We may well suffer M. Hardinge to wander at large in matters that relieue him nothing 153. Iâ— it were lawfull for others so to doe it were no greate Masterie to write Bookes Again These be none of the maters that lie in Question M. Harding maketh a longe discourse of the Apostles caet 155. If he had shewed to what end we might the better haue knowen his purpose But to what end 160. For neither it is denied of vs nor it is any part of our question Which thinge neither is denied by me 180. nor any wise toucheth the question By these I am persuaded that he would haue y e matter it self folowed and loueth not to haue the time idelly bestowed Nowe though I am hable to declare that Doctour Hardinge in these pointes hath done no otherwise then he lawfullye might Yet to lette that passe I Conclude agaynste 〈◊〉 Iewell that of all thinges it is most Absurd in him that is so Precise with other Vnequall measure to be wide and large towardes him selfe in the selfe same kinde of thing for which though vniustlye he reproueth other And if Iew. 153. as M. Iewel confesseth it be no great mastery to wryte bookes if it be lawful to waÌ„der at large in matters that relieue not Let no man wonder at the worthynesse of him which hath wrytten so mightye a Reply considering that he runneth so far into Common Places and Rusheth so fowlye into dispraise of Popes Cardinals Priests and Church of Rome whiche neither maketh the new Gospellers the honester meÌ„ neither destroieth the Present and Auncient faith of the Catholike Church ¶ Of a thirde kinde of Common Places worse then any of the foresaid two CAP. III. TO proue by examininge of sundrye wintesses A Truthe which
taken of them for the seruice in the vulgare Tongue Of S. Ambroses wordes M. Harding reasoneth thus The 24. Example Iew. 246 Peter was the Chiefe of the Apostles Ergo the Pope is Head of the vniuersal Church This Argument would be better considered for as it is it holdeth but weakly Verely this is a weake Solution But let the Argument be better considered formed in those termes which D. Harding vseth S. Androw folowed our Sauior before y e S. Peter did Amb. 2. Co. 12. Har. 106. And yet Androw receiued not the Primacie but Peter ergo the Apostolike see Church of Rome hath the Primacie Consider you now what Answer you may deuise For this Argument doth not meddle with the question of the Apostles Preeminence emong themselues vnto which only you bringe it but of Primacie in y t Church of Christ ouer which though other Apostles were generall officers yet the supremacie was singularly in S. Peter Paule went vp to Hierusalem to visite Peter The 25. Example Iew. 253. Ergo the Bishope of Rome is Head of the Church Folishely Is it not tyme M. Iewel either that some Physitian or God hymselfe visite you either to purge you of that cuil humor which occupieth your heade Or to take vengeance of you which do so abuse your Readers in matters of so Great weight D. Harding hymselfe maketh no other Argument in this place but of Authoritie and the reason which he bringeth and you peruert is Theodoritus an Auncient Bishopes who writing to Pope Leo saieth thus Har. 108. If Paule the preacher of truth and trumpet of the Holy Ghost ranne to Peter to bring from hym A determination And declaration for them who at Antioche were in Argument and contention concerning lyuing after Moyses Law much more we which are but smal vile shal runne to your Throne Apostolike that of you we maie haue salue for the sores of the Churches Doe you then M. Iewel cal this goeing for determination in a doubtfull question nothing els but S. Paules visiting of S. Peter And would you haue it conceiued either that S. Peter was sicke there il at ease Or that for good willes sake and curtesie only S. Paule went to visite hym Byside this D. Harding groūded not his Conclusion vpon this argument but that rather which foloweth in Theodoritus which is this For in al thinges it is meete that you haue the cheife doinges Ergo it foloweth wel of Theodoritus authoritie that the Pope is supreme The Church of Christ is one Ergo the Pope is an vniuersal Bishope The 26. Eyample Iew. 255 That is an other question Which D. Harding went not about to proue by Natural Reason but his present conclusion is this A multitude can not continue ONE Har. 108. onlesse it be conteined and holden in by ONE But the Church continueth ONE Ergo it must haue ONE Heade or Gouernour Now whether the Bishope of Sarum or London or Rome or Constantinople c. shal be that One Head ouer al y e members of Christes mystical body in earth that may be afterwardes consydered but in y t meane tyme D. Har. goeth no further then Natural reason doth leade hym that in A greate multitude and cumpanie it is meete to haue One ouer the rest if thei shal be kept in Vnitie Mankynd dependeth most of sense The 27. Example Iew. 257 Vnsensible Ergo the Pope is the Heade of the Vniuersal Church Here is a very vnsensible Argument ▪ nor sense nor reason can make it good Why make you it then For D. Har. concludeth not so But whereas you in sayeing Christ only to be the Heade of the Churche would inferre that the Pope is not anie Heade at al in Answering this your obiection he declareth that mankynd dependeth moste of sense and receiueth al lerning and instruction of sensible thinges Har. 108. Ergo notwithstanding Christ be the cheife Heade yet because he lyueth not visiblie emong vs 109. the Church hath neede of a man to be her Gouernour whom she maie perceiue by owtward sense Which man whether he must be the Pope or no he commeth not so low in this place M. Hardinges reasons procede thus The 28. Example Iew. fol. 260. God is careful and hath special Prouidence for his Church Doubtful places of y t scriptures must be expoūded General Councels must he summoned Bishopes being at variance must he reconciled Ergo the Bishope of Rome is Christes General Vicar and Head of the Vniuersal Churche Ergo Indirectly saieth D. Har. by natural reason there must be One Heade in y e Churche and one chiefe seruant in y e howsehold of Christ Mary y t y ◠Pope is he y t is out of the cumpasse of natural Reason which although it attaine vnto it that by most perfite waie of Gouernemēt there should be One heade Yet y t this or y t man should be he by her owne power she cā not bring it to passe therefore it was not directly so cōcluded of D. Har. in this place as M. Iewel ful peruersly gathereth This is a very poore helpe in deede The 29. Example Iew. 274. Fautlesse M. Harding here is faine to resemble the Bisshopes of Rome touching their doctrine to Balaam to Caiphas And to a Leaden Seale And touching their lyues to confesse False thei are Lampes without light The first is false through your reporting the seconde is fautlesse in D. Har. saieing Concerning doctrine he saieth that the See of Rome hath this singular Grace that he which sitteth in it is compelled to teach truthe like as Balaam and Caiphas were made to fulfill the blessed wil of God notwithstanding their falsehode and wickednesse The comparison therefore is not Ignominious to the Catholikes but must Glorious to the praise of God and most comfortable to the consciences of true Christians And it consisteth not as you report it M. Iewel spitefully enough in resembling the doctrine of the Bishopes of Rome to y e Persons of Balaam and Caiphas but in resembling the Prouidence Assistance and Grace of God Sophistrie in directing their doctrine vnto the like Spirite of Trueth and Prophecie as God hymselfe vttered by Balaā and Caiphas withowt their good wills In resembling also the doctrine of the B. of Rome not vnto the mater of a leadden Scale but vnto the Forme of a Seale which is as true in the basest metal as in the purest And so let the Bishop of Rome be as he wil his doeinges shal not let the working of God but as perfite a printe of his Truth shal be made with a Leaden Seale as a Golden Concerning now the other pointe of lampes withowt light he maketh not a General Rule nor saieth that y e Bishopes of Rome are so which worde you M. Iewel doe vse but sometyme saieth he the see hath failed in Charitie and it hath ben in case as it might truly
directly to be considered The Answer of M. Iewell is this Princeps is often vsed for a man had in estimation for any Vertue Roome Or Singular Qualitie Ergo the Principalytie whiche S. Augustine attributeth to the Apostolike See consisteth not in Supreme GouerÌ„ment It woulde be ouer longe and tedious to teken vp all Examples by whiche I might euidently confirme this obiection of myne that Maister Iewell vseth the settinge further of one Trueth to the disgracinge or dissanulling rather of an other As when the Catholikes say to proue the Supremacie of the Bisshope of Rome Iulius restored Athanasius The .vij Example Iew. 290 M. Iewell Answereth Maximus also restored vnto him his Communion When they say The viij Example Touching faith and Religion the See of Rome hath alwaies bene consulted He Answereth Iew. 294 Marcellinus Dulcitius Bonifacius Euodius and other sent theyr questions to S. Augustine When they say The .ix. Example S. Peter was called Princeps or Chiefe of the Apostles He Answereth So we reed in Scriptures Princeps Familiae Princeps Legationis Princeps Coquorum that is the Chiefe of rhe house or stocke Iew. 302. the Chiefe of the Embassage the Chiefe of the Cookes When the Catholikes say The .x. Example S. Peter the Master of the whole world apointed S. Iames to be Bisshope of Hierusalem Iew. 303 He Answereth That vnto Michael is committed the nation of the Iewes But Land and Sea and all the habitation of the world is committed to S. Paule When they say The .xi. Example that Rome is the moste notable and chief Church of the worlde He Answereth that Cicero to blase the nobilitie of that Citie calleth lucem orbisterrarum atâ—ue arcem omnium GentiuÌ„ Iew. 304 the light of the world and the Castle of all nations To make an end when they say out of S. Ambrose The .xii. Example That Damasus the Pope is called the Rector and Ruler of the house of God To put the mater out of al doubt see what he answereth therevnto But to put the mater out of doubt let vs consider whether the selfe same forme of Speach Iew. 306 haue bene applied to any others in like sorte And then he telleth where other Bisshopes haue bene sayed to be Rulers in the Church But doth this kinde of Auswer either satisfie the Obiection Or Determine the Trueth Or quiet a doubtful minde Doth not this kinde of Reasoning bring vs rather into perplexities that it may not be knowen how to be resolued in any mater Is there any fitter waye for the Antichrist to worke by Antichrist high way for 〈◊〉 then by Forme and Phrases of Speache to confound all Faith and Religion Doe you beleue M. Iewel that Christ is the Sonne of God But doe you beleue that he is the natural Sonne of his Father of the same Substance Eternitie with him If you doe so in deede what say you to this Argument that Iudges in y e Scriptures are called Goddes Ex. 22 and that the frindes and Seruantes of God are called Goddes psal 81. Would this put the mater out of doubt that Christe is not the Sonne of God I meane by Nature because you coulde finde it oute after you had considered it where the selfsame form of speache is applied to others in like sort And where suche as are not the naturall Children of God are called yet the Children of God Christ saueth vs in Form of Speache S. Paule sayeth to Timothie Doeinge so thou shalt saue thy self 1. Tim. 4. and them that heare thee And would you conclude herevpon that the Power of sauinge is all one in them bothe because the Forme of the worde is all one Or that it is not properly and worthely veryfyed of Christe because it is but improperly attributed to S. Timothie Consider then I praie you M. Iewel whether this will put the mater oute of doubt if in Refelling the Sense of some one place whiche pleaseth you not you bringe a lyke Forme of Speache vsed in an other place And without further probation require to haue the vnderstandinge which your Aduersaie gathereth of his witnesse to be reformed accordinge to the meaninge of the Sentencies which you allege As because Princeps that is Chiefe is vsed in bothe places whether you say Princeps Apostolorum or Princeps Coquorum Therefore to conclude that the Chieftie of S. Peter Emonge the Apostles was no other thinge then the Chieftie of N. emonge the Cookes Beware therefore Christen Reader of M. Iewell And especially in those places whiche as they make moste for the Catholyke Faith so hath he no other refuge for sauinge hym selfe from Subscribinge vnto them but this very Simple one and Feeble to seeke where lyke Phrases may be founde of an other Sense yet and meanynge thereby to bringe in to doubt or as he supposeth to putre out of doubte that the Sense of the Catholykes Obiection can not contynue Whiche in fewe wordes is no other then to shewe hymselfe A Grammarian only And to destroie one trueth by an other as though One phrase might not haue two good Senses eche one agreeing with the place in which they are apointed to serue The sum of M. Iewels Argument is this The like forme or phrase of speache is to be found in an other sense Ergo to put the mater out of doubt this Present place of which the question is hath not a different or sundrie sense frome that other The Summe of my meaning is this that no man be deceaued through this kind of M. Iewels Answering wherein he so telleth one Trueth that he disswadeth an other This practise of the ProtestaÌ„tes hath already done harme inough let them beginne rather to amend theyr former iniquites then to adde fresshe vnto them They haue answered God must be worshipped in Spirite Which is most true and haue thereby taken awaie an other trueth that God is also to be worshipped with our body and bodily thinges They haue answered The true Fast is to abstaine frome Synne Whiche is vndoubteely True but by that faire shew of pure holynes they haue Destroied an other Trueth that Togeather with the fasting from synne we must also take paynes in our body and abstaine now and then from meate and drinke Thei haue Answered We must receiue the body of Christ by faithe which in some sense is most true But thei haue there withal taught the people not to beleue the Real presence of Christ in the Sacrament which presence yet is as true as the other is certaine In other cases moe they haue done the lyke It is to much that thei haue already done let them not therefore continue in this trade of Answering nor of dealing in maters of Religion Specially when thei bring the mater to Phrases of Speache and Signification of wordes and by one Sense take awaie an other whereas bothe in their seueral places doe agree with Truthe