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truth_n	ancient_a	church_n	doctrine_n	1,896	5	6.2759	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A82002	A sober and temperate discourse, concerning the interest of words in prayer, the just antiquity and pedigree of liturgies, or forms of prayer in churches : with a view of the state of the church, when they were first composed, or imposed. Together with a discovery of the weakness of the grounds upon which they were first brought in, or upon which Bishop Gawden hath lately discoursed, the necessity of a liturgie, or the inconveniency of altering the English liturgie, the utility of church musick, and the lawfulness of ceremonies : in which are mixed reasons justifying those godly ministers, who forbear the use of the Common-prayer, against the late out-cryes of the said bishop. / By H.D. M.A.	H. D. (Henry Dawbeny); Collinges, John, 1623-1690, attributed name.	1661 (1661)	Wing D449; Thomason E1086_14; ESTC R208152	100,305	119

the time to make a new Lytugry the Common people would have thought it a new Religion they therefore translate the old Gregorian Missal leaving out the Prayers for the Pope and to Saints and for Saints departed and a few such things as could not be used without palpable Idolatry and translate the other Prayers in the Mass-Book out of Latine into English and these were some of them established by that Act 5 6. Ed. 6. Stat. 1. The truth of this any one that can understand Latine may convince himself of by comparing the Mass-Book with the Com. Pr. of Edw. 6. Where he will find betwixt 40. and 50. Collects translated verbatim and if he compares the other parts with the Roman Breviary the Roman Ritual and the Pontificale Romanum he will yet further see the truth of it XXIV Not indeed could it be imagined that those first Reformers should leave at that time all Ministers at liberty or to their own conceived Prayers when most of them were Papists in their hearts generally so sottishly ignorant and insufficient that they could not have done any thing Which very cause held in Qu. Eliz. time where 1 El. c. 2. the Common Prayer was with some further emendations specified in the Statute 5 Eliz c 28. again imposed In the 5th year of her Reign by Act of Parliament the Common Prayer was ordered to be translated into Welch and used in Wales And this is the true Story both of Lyturgies in the General and the English Lyturgy in special XXV By this time the Reader who hath not a mind to revive Pythagoras his School again and to sacrifice his Reason to an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 believe every thing that is told him before he hath tried the truth of it may see reason to desire the present L. Bish of Exeter to tell him if he can where those same ancient models of Lyturgies not Roman Bish Hall Remonstr p. 13. but Christian and contrived by the holy Martyrs and Confessors of the blessed Reformation of Religion are to be found The Remonstrant was challenged to make it good out of ancient Models but thought fit to wave the business in his Reply It hath been the old Plea but let them prove it if they can saith Didoclavius Or if his present Lordship of Exeter doth not think fit to answer for another yet it is reason that he should justifie his own words He hath told us in p. 8. of his Considerations touching the Lyturgy That The Ancient Churches from the very first Century did use such-publick wholsom Forms of found words in their Sacramental celebrations especially and afterwards in other holy Administrations or publick duties as made up their solemn devout and publick Lyturgies which Patterns all Modern and Reformed Churches of any Renown have followed according to the many Scriptural Examples and Expressions in set Forms of Prayer Psalms Confessions and Benedictions commended to us by holy men in all ages and by Christ himself XXVI The world is grown too wary to believe any thing of this because any one saith so and the Doctor is too wise to undertake to prove this Let him prove That Christ prescribed the Lords Prayer for a Form or that the Apostles ever used it so 2. Let him prove that in any of the four first Centuries there was any Stated Forms of Prayer used in the Church 3. Let him prove that any Modern Reformed Churches imposed any Forms of Prayer so that those and no other might be used And 4 That they did this after the Pattern of the Ancient Churches from the first Century All these things are to be proved nor is it possible to prove them XXVII In the 18th p. of that Discourse he tels us That Dr. Gaudens Consider p. 19. It is a Jesuitical Artifice and back-blow used by some to aver though falsely That the English Lyturgy was nothing else but the Romish Missal or Mass-book turned into English 'T is true he saith some things very scriptural devout and excellent which the Roman Missal had taken and retained after the ancient Form of Lyturgies of the Church were severed and taken as Wheat from Chaffe and Jewels from Dross by our wise Reformers and preserved in the English Lyturgy conform to pious and unspotted Authority We challenge Dr. Gauden and all others of his mind to make this good if they can It is true there are some things in the English Lyturgy that are not in the Gregorian Missal But let any one take Missale Romanum both the old one and that established by the Council of Trent Breviarium Romanum Rituale Romanum and Pontificale Romanum and compare them all with the printed Com. Prayer-book of 5 6 E. 6. and then judge whether he can find a 6th part of the latter which is in none of the former If he finds that there is very little added let him the learn how to trust men talking after such a magisterial rate and annexing no proofs of their words XXVIII If the Reader finds it true that whatsoever Dr. Gauden saith there is in our English Lyturgy as it is commonly exposed to sale very little but what is to be found in the Mass-book in Latine let him then go to the Bishop of Exeter and desire him for his credit sake to shew him those ancient Forms of Lyturgy used in the Church out of which these Forms of Prayer were transcribed and taken which must be immediately after the first Century or tell him what that same pious and unspotted authority is If he tels him it is Pope Gregories which he must if he speaks truth let him tell him that he hath heard that he was a vile wretch accused for a Murtherer the Father of most of the superstitious usages now in the Church of Rome one who understood not the Greek Tongue as himself confesseth a man of no admirable Judgment witness his pretented Commentaries upon Job which might have as well been upon the Revelation a man very far from being either pious or unspotted or fit for his Seat one that defended Purgatory that fawned upon Phocas the Murderer in short one of no deserved Name or Authority in the Church of God XXIX By this Discourse it appears that there was no Lyturgy directing Forms of Prayers for the Church till Pope Gregories time Anno 600. nor any imposed till the time of Charles the Great Anno 800. when all manner of superstitious usages were brought into the Church nor was it then imposed without a Persecution attending it And this Reader is the pious and unspotted Authority the Bishop tels thee of From hence thou wilt also conclude the antiquity of the English Lyturgy the reason of its first being imposed and no further reformed either by K. Edw. or by Qu. Elizabeth In King James his time it received some additions what Reformation we cannot tell XXX By all this Discourse it appeareth that there is no divine Prescript no Apostolical

uncharitably and falsly asserted We have not blessed be God such a pitiful Church that there are no Ministers in it but are liable to the charge of serving God in Prayer with rudeness unpreparedness barreness superficiality defect deformity and that both in matter manner judgment and expression No Jesuit ever had the confidence so to asperse the Ministry of England nor could speak more sordidly to their dishonour Possibly there may be some and there have been far more than now are who may be too liable to this charge But where 's the fault Is it not in those to whom the trust is committed of taking a due cognisance of such as offer themselves to be ordained or admitted to the cure of souls Should not they take care to admit none but such as are both able to preach and to pray Do they not discharge their work conscientiously while they admit such as are not able to pray without such rudeness as is here complained of or make no more conscience of it than to do it unpreparedly superficially with so much barrenness defect and deformity such as neither have judgment to compose a Prayer as to matter nor elocution to pray as to manner so but that people shall have just cause to nauseate the Worship of God 4. If the Doctor means by his phrase of every Minister being subject c. only that 't is possible that the best Ministers may so be negligent c. as to run upon this Rock that is as true concerning reading Prayers none will deny but he that can read very well may read false and if he keeps not his mind intent no doubt but he will perform the Service as rudely and superficially by reading as by speaking Instances might be given of this and shall if need be And certainly the conceiving of a Prayer will command more attention of mind than reading can All therefore said under this Head is meer air III. But Secondly He tels us That a Lyturgy is a most excellent means to preserve the truth of Christian and Reformed Doctrine by the consonancy of publick Devotions Pag. 10. into which otherwise corrupt minds are apt to infuse the sour Leaven of their own corrupt Opinions Fine words again But what reason we have before shewed it to be 1. Questionable whether a lawful means or no. 2. If lawful by no means effectual except it reach to all Praying and Preaching too 3. Not the only means a good Summary of Christian Faith is far more proper and rational 4. A means bringing a mischief as bad as what it pretends to cure yea far worse fit for nothing but to breed rents and separations the mothers of all Heresies 5. An Apochryphal means by which men make themselves wiser than Christ and his Apostles or the Purer Church We shall only propound this Question upon this suggestion If this be true how comes it to pass that all the Arminians and Popishly affected Clergy-men of England are such Zealots for a lyturgy The thing is demonstrably true that it is so let the Doctor answer this Question by his next IV. But Thirdly A Lyturgy he saith is necessary for the holy Harmony and sweet communion of all Christians as well in National as Parochial Churches whilst thereby they are all kept in one mind and Spirit praying the same things and chearfully saying Amen to the same Praises and Petitions Here is the old Fallacy still of Verba elegancia pro sensu simplici That all Christians have the same common wants and ought to pray for the same things in the main is to be granted though as particular persons so particular Churches may have renewing wants not common to all for which a Lyturgy will not serve the turn But is there any so simple as not to understand that the same things may be prayed for in different words and phrases The Doctor here mistook his Mark he should have proved that it is the Will of God that Christians should maintain their Communion in the use of the same phrases letters and syllables And when he had done that a Popish Priest should have improved his Notion and concluded that because the one body of Christ should have but one tongue and since the confusion at Babel men in several nations have spoke several languages therefore to the perfection of the Communion of the Church there is not only a Liturgy necessary but a Liturgy every where in Latine that being a Language most universally known The Churches external Communion lyes in their keeping the same Sabbath performing the same Acts of worship of which prayer is one confession of Original and Actual sins praying for the same mercies generally c. not in their saying all the same words sure He tells us fourthly That a Liturgical form is not onely of great benefit and comfort to the more knowing judicious and well-bred sort of Christians but highly to their security and to the holy and humble composure of their spirit in the worship of God who otherwise are prone not onely amidst the publique devotions curiously to censure but scoffingly to despise By the way this is no Demonstration neither of their Christianity nor of their good breeding yea many times to laugh at and at best to pity or deplore the evident defects and incongruities which appear in many Ministers odd expressions and incongruous wayes of officiating c. To reduce these many words to a short sum of reason the usefulness of imposed Liturgies is here pleaded 1. For the benefit of the most knowing judicious and well-bred sort of Christians 2. To avoid the censures scoffs and jears of others The Dr. hath not yet told us what benefit accrues to the former from a Liturgy nor yet what solid grounds of comfort for them to feed upon the want of which it may be is the reason that if others guess rightly that take all the professors of Religion that can but give any understanding account of the Systeme of Divinity and live in any sobriety of life and conversation and number them taking their judgment as you go along and in will be found that ten for one are against any imposed Forms On the other side it is certain that some others make it all their Religion So it was of old That Holy and Learned Oeculampadius living in a Noble mans house who yet was a Protestant and would seem a forward man in the Reformation complains of the slender regard the greatest part of the Family gave to him and to his Ministry in a Letter to his Friend in these words Such a man saith he sent for me that I might publickly in the Church instruct his Family in the Christian Religion or rather feed them with the words of Christ who were initiated already I counted it my chief duty to make the Evangelical Law known familiar at hand to them that so afterwards they might of themselves proceed in the true and sincere study of Christianity Peace Meekness