Romish Church But for the Papist the happy man that has had the good luck to hit into this true Church they have so many tricks and quirks to secure him in his life at his death and after it that let his faults be what they will it s very strange if he miss of Heaven at least after he has taken Purgatory in his way if he was very poor for rich men may easily escape that too or get soon out of it if they 'l follow the Priests directions Such fine devices they have to give men a lift to Heaven without putting them to the trouble of walking in that narrow way of serious holiness which alone leads thither So that I cannot but say and without any prejudice or partiality I speak it notwithstanding all that noise and talk of holiness in the Church of Rome nothing but Holy Mother Church Holy Father the Pope Holy Altars Holy Images Holy Water Holy Crosses Beads Agnus Dei's Reliques and a thousand holy trinkets more yet I think there is as little true holiness of life and conversation to be found amongst them as in any Church of the world Yea we shall often find that when those of that way are told of the holy Lives of many Protestants or are themselves exhorted to strictness and piety of life as that wherein true Religion chiefly consists they will be ready presently to make a puff at it as if this was of no value in comparison of being of the true Church of the infallible Catholick Church as they fondly call their own Sect as if being in a good Church would secure a bad man when we are so plainly taught that without holiness no man shall see God let him be of what Church he will Wherefore to conclude this remember that since in the Church of England the holy Gospel is most purely taught and the holy Sacraments duly administred according to our Saviours own institution and the members of it are neither required to profess any falshood or practise any evil in order to their communion with it but on the contrary are most strictly enjoyned to be holy in all their conversation and do here enjoy all manner of helps and advantages thereto therefore I say this is such an Holy Church as that you may and ought to hold communion with it Proceed we now to the following Marks of the true Church CHAP. III. Of the third mark of the true Church that it's Catholick L. THE next mark he lays down of the true Church is that its Catholick And here they make great boasting and triumphing for they say none else call themselves Catholicks but they nor as they pretend have any reason so to do since they tell of vast numbers belonging to their Church in all places of the world far and near and how they convert Heathens whilst Protestants they say are but a little handful here and there in corners amongst a multitude of Catholicks T. As to what they call themselves it matters little for be sure they 'l give themselves good words Neither is it true that none but they lay claim to that name for we of this Church do esteem our selves true Catholick Christians as professing the ancient Catholick faith of Christ and so do frequently stile both our selves and our Doctrine and with good reason as I doubt not to demonstrate As to their great numbers compared to other Christians suppose what they alledge were true as it is most false yet is this no sufficient argument of their being true Catholicks for that 's to be judged by the truth of their Doctrines and not by the number of Professors For if we should at this rate go to the Poll and judg of truth by most votes then might the Mahometans carry it from Christians And heretofore the number of the Arrians was said to be greater than of the Orthodox But that 's to be accounted a true part of the Catholick Church which professes the Catholick faith even the same Christian Religion which all good Christians in all ages former as well as latter and of all Nations have ever constantly profest And by this rule you will find that the Church of England is a most true and sound part of the Catholick Church as professing this same Christian faith contain'd in the Gospel and summ'd up in the Apostles Creed Here you may remember what I have before told you that it is most vain and unreasonable for any one particular Church to stile her self the whole Catholick Church as if there were no Christians in the world but themselves And yet in this sense doth the Church of Rome stile her self Catholick the absurdity of which I have before shewed And there needs nothing more to manifest it than this single consideration that there are thousands and millions of Christians in several parts of the world who neither now do nor ever did own the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome which is the great fundamental article of their faith to pass by all others at present and yet all these whilst they embrace the whole Christian Doctrine taught in the holy Scriptures are to be lookt on as true Catholick Christians though they do not believe the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar upon earth invested with Supremacy over all Christian Churches for this is a Doctrine which our Saviour never taught his Disciples Now without owning this false Doctrine a man cannot be of the Church of Rome according to the Decrees of their Popes and Councils and yet without this I say a man may receive the whole Christian Religion as it was delivered by Christ and his Apostles and therefore he may be a true Catholick Christian though he be not of the Romish Church nor yields subjection to it L. This seems to me very plain and clear T. But it will appear yet more plain if you consider what is a most certain truth that there can be no manner of good evidence given that the Church of Christ for some hundred years after our blessed Saviours time did ever receive this Doctrine of the Popes Supremacy or his Infallibility Nay our learned men assert that there is not so much as any one Christian Writer for at least three hundred years after that time some say four or five that did ever so much as teach any such strange Doctrine as this How then I beseech you can the owning of it now be necessary to make a man a Catholick when the whole Catholick Church for some ages after its first Plantation was a meer stranger to it L. I think there is no appearance of reason for it T. To this add that the whole Greek which was much larger than the Romish before it was over-run by the Turks ever disown'd these same new opinions of the Popes Supremacy and Infallibility with many others of the same stamp neither do they generally embrace them to this day though sometimes the Romanists have used all manner of arts and devices
in all ages hath acknowledged and walked in But the Church of Rome which may well enough be stiled the Popes little flock hath peculiar Doctrines of its own which she hath added to the common truths of Christianity many of which Doctrines do apparently lead men to the broad way even to loosness of life and manners as hath been already shewn T. There needs nothing more be added to what you say and therefore I shall proceed to his sixth and last question viz. Can you shew me any miracles that ever were wrought in testionony of the truth of your Religion Or that all the miracles which Catholicks shew to have been done in confirmation of their Religion have been false or were wrought be Beelzebub any more than those which Christ did work in his life time L. I do well remember the answer that long since you gave to this the summ of which was that since our Religion is that same holy Christian Religion which was taught by our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles all those miracles which they anciently wrought in confirmation of their Doctrine do at this day confirm ours also which being the same with theirs needs no new miracles for that purpose For by those miracles of theirs besides other weighty arguments we are fully assured that Iesus Christ is the Son of God that he died for our sins and rose again from the dead with the rest of the Creed wherein is briefly comprized the summ of our Belief the chief articles of our Religion And when our first Reformers rejected those Popish errors which had been added to these ancient Christian Doctrines as they needed no extraordinary commission for this their reformation no more did they need any miracles to confirm their commission It was enough that they had authority from God from the Church and from their Prince to preach the truths of the Gospel and to reject all errors contrary thereto and to remove those abuses which in later times had crept into the Church But whilst they only preach'd that same Gospel which had been abundantly confirmed already by mighty signs and wonders they no more needed any new miracles than if such errors and abuses had never been brought in And as to those false Doctrines wherein Popery consists such as the Popes Supremacy Transubstantiation c. we do utterly deny that ever any true miracles were wrought in confirmation of them whatever fine tales their Monks may tell us in their Legends And for any to compare these their lying Legends so full of most ridiculous and prodigious stories with the account that is given of the miracles done by our Saviour and his followers in the New Testament is to be guilty of notorious impudence and blasphemy and plainly tends to promote infidelity and Atheism T. Your censure is very just and your answer solid and satisfactory as are the rest you have given By all which it appears that your Author had little cause to say that they who ask the resolution of these doubts from their Ministers if they have any light of reason will find how much they are deluded For blessed be God I hope many of our people are so well instructed that they will not be imposed upon nor much puzled with such captious Questions as these Especially whilst they seek to their Ministers for a resolution of their doubts by the grace of God they shall be secured from the delusions of Popish Emissaries who go about seeking whom they may deceive CHAP. III. An answer to some Propositions said to be unanswerable by Protestants T. IN the next place I find your Author at his Scholars request furnishing him with some unanswerable Propositions as he vainly stiles them against Protestants Of these he names eight taken as he says from Costerus the Jesuit who therewith if we may believe him put all the ablest Ministers of Germany and the Low-countries to their wits ends Which if it were so one would wonder that there were any Protestant Ministers or people left in those Countries and that they were not all long since driven out of their wits and their Religion into Popery But had they never used those terrible arguments of fire and sword Prisons and Inquisition no body would much fear their pregnant arguments difficult questions or unanswerable Propositions The two former we have already dispatched let us now survey the last in which I am apt to think we shall still find a tedious repetition of many the same things that we have already often heard which if it be so we shall more briefly pass over them L. Probably you will find it so However I think we shall sooner have finished if you please to give the answer your self to these his Propositions which I shall exactly recite to you T. That shall be as you will But I hope you are not moved with his formidable title of Unanswerable Propositions L. I have no reason I am sure if they be like his unanswerable Questions in which there proved little or no difficulty T. Their common way is to make up the want of good Reason with great words and loud noise producing only thin fallacies and empty sophistry whilst they talk big of Infallible Evidence and clear Demonstration But let us hear these dreadful Propositions I beseech you L. His first is this Never since the Apostles times till Luther began his new Doctrine in the year 1517 was any man found in the whole World who did in all things consent with either Lutherans Calvinists Anabaptists or other Sectaries opinions Nor shall ever any of the Sectaries prove the Apostles or Evangelists to have been of the Lutheran Calvinistical or any other new Sect. Whence follows that Luther and the rest have no Faith at all but only a new fancied invention which they adorn with the name of Faith and that they are the men of whom the Scripture in several places affirms that there will come in the latter times false Prophets T. As to Lutherans or Calvinists we own neither one name or other as has been often said nor are we concerned to vindicate any particular opinion of this Man or that though I reckon the Doctrine of both as to the substance of it to be sound and good at least so far as it agrees with that of our Church which only we are obliged to answer for and easily we may though he revile us also as Sectaries since it is no other than the same Christian Doctrine which is contain'd in the Gospel and summ'd up in the Creed and this let him confute if he can or attempt it if he dare And in this Doctrine we are sure both the Apostles of old with the Catholick Church in their Age and in all Ages since do fully consent with us Nor was it any new Doctrine that our Reformers brought in No but whilst they rejected Popish Novelties they retain'd those truths of Christianity which were as old as the first institution of Religion What
there is little of true devotion in their worship so they have done much by other false Doctrines of theirs to destroy righteousness truth peace and charity from amongst men to pass by their Doctrines of Equivocation and mental reservation many of great note in their Church have taught that no faith is to be kept with Hereticks and it s well known they have sometimes put it in practice They exempt their Clergy from obedience to the Civil Magistrate and teach that it is in the power of the Pope to Excommunicate and Depose Heretical Princes and to absolve their subjects from Allegiance to them who after this by their principles may lawfully rise up and rebel against them Yea in some of their Councils they have decreed that the Rulers who will not root out Hereticks as they account all that are not of their Church shall be deprived of their Dominions And when they have had power in their hands they have exercised the most barbarous cruelty upon those they call Hereticks that ever was heard of in the world both in our own and other Nations especially where their bloody Inquisition is allow'd They burn their bodies and censure their souls to Hell and this is Popish charity This is the Church that boasts so much of her holiness and good works But should I go about to tell you what is the Divinity of many of their famous Casuists especially of the Jesuits as it 's laid open by some of their own Church and is to be seen in their Books and in the present Popes condemnation of some of their grossest Doctrines if this I say should be laid open you would be amazed to find how there is scarce any sin but with one distinction and evasion or other you might be allow'd to commit it scarce any duty but you might have a colour for the neglect of it Amazed one may well be to find men calling themselves Christians yea Doctors of the Church to allow and defend such practices as a sober heathen would abhor Yet this is the Church that is to be known by her Holiness above all other Churches L. Many of these things which you object against their Church I find my Author afterwards to vindicate but in the mean time he says we Protestants have no holiness in our Church that the first Reformers were very wicked men and so are their followers and a great many ill things he says of those he calls Sectaries as guilty of Rebellion Murders Adultery Sacriledg c. T. As to those who have been really guilty of these or the like crimes let them bear all the blame which they most justly deserve As to our own Church it s no way concerned in this charge no but let the shame light upon that Church which first taught and practised Treason and Rebellion Plots and Conspiracies murdering of Kings and massacring of their Subjects under pretence of Religion And if any that are called Protestants have been guilty of such Villanies they may in respect of these practices and the principles whence they flow justly be stiled the Jesuits Disciples whatever abhorrence they may pretend for other points of Popery L. But he says we take away all fear of God and obedience to his commands and all good Doctrine with more to that purpose T. A plain sign it is that they themselves have no fear of God before their eyes whilst they are guilty of such malicious slanders and reproaches Some good pretence they might have for these censures if we took away the Scriptures from the people wherein all good Doctrine and Gods holy commandments are contain'd and instead of these should put into their hands lying Legends devised by idle Monks full of feigned miracles and ridiculous stories which tend to nourish superstition and error But on the contrary it s well known that we not only allow to common people the use of holy Scripture but do most earnestly exhort them to be diligent and constant in the reading and meditation of it How then dare they say that we take away all good Doctrine And is not this the chief design of the Sermons so plentifully preached amongst us to explain these holy Scriptures to shew the people thence their duty both to God and man and to enforce the same upon them To this same end are also written many excellent Books by the Divines of our Church Yea some done by the more devout Writers of their Church which do chiefly aim at the promoting of good life have been translated into our language are commonly read and well esteemed among us such as Thomas à Kempis Drexelius Sales and others Nothing is more frequently prest upon us than that above all things we ought to live in imitation of our Blessed Saviour and his holy Apostles in the exercise of true devotion and piety to God of righteousness truth and mercy to one another and of purity and sobriety in our own persons which we look upon as the very summ of Religion and the great design of the Gospel according to Tit. 2. 11 12. With us is taught the great obligation that lies upon all men whether Clergy or Laity to be obedient to the King as supreme and to all that are in authority under him That we ought to love our neighbours as our selves keeping faith and truth with all men whether good or bad Orthodox or Heretical avoiding all equivocation and mental reservation With us is taught the excellency and necessity of charity both in doing good to all that need our assistance and in forgiving those who have done evil to us if ever we hope for mercy and forgiveness from God And as many publick good works have been done in this Kingdom since the Reformation as can be shewn within the same compass of years in times of Popery though upon better principles In our Church we are taught to flie from whoredom drunkenness and all riotous sensual courses and that not as slight and venial faults but as most dangerous and deadly vices And for the more effectual promoting of holiness our Religious worship is framed according to the rules of holy Scripture directed to God only in the name of his Son Jesus not to Angels or Saints Our prayers are in a known tongue that the people may be affected and edified and as the Apostle requires may be able on good grounds to say Amen We have the Holy Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords-Supper administred according to our Saviours own Institution and these still urged as most solemn obligations to all piety and holiness of living without which the outward performance will stand us in no stead We declare that no pardon for sin can be obtain'd but on condition of sincere repentance and that no repentance is sincere but what produces reformation and amendment of life if opportunity be afforded So that our Doctrine you see is the Doctrine of the Gospel and the precepts of it are daily inculcated on the people Our
infallible and the Mistress of all other Churches that there is a Purgatory with the rest of those Doctrines which they embrace and we reject Nay these opinions with their consequences rather tend to make men much worse than otherwise they would have been Some of them make them more loose and careless in the leading of their lives and some make them most cruel and uncharitable to such as differ from them yea render them many times disobedient to their rulers and furious disturbers of the peace by Plots and Treasons and Rebellions for the advancing of their cause True Christianity puts men upon no such courses but these are the natural effects of Popery as has often been verified by sad experience L. I understand you well and am fully perswaded that we in our Church do embrace all those Christian Doctrines that tend to the promoting of good life and do retain none that are an hindrance to it But what say you to their objections against Calvin and Luther who as my Author says were very wicked men and strange stories he tells of them out of Bolsec and other Writers of their Church T. To this I answer that it sufficiently appears how bad their cause is which must be maintain'd by the most odious lies and forgeries For there are no Books in the world less to be credited than those which their Monks and Priests have written in praise of those they have Canonized for Saints and in dispraise of such as they have damned for Hereticks making the former somewhat more than Angels and the latter worse than Devils But as to Calvin and Luther some of the more ingenuous even of their own Church have given a fairer character of them than their lying Bolsec and such Authors And had they but been as zealous for Popery as they were against it no doubt but they had past amongst them for great Saints with all their faults But in the mean time were they really as bad as they falsely accuse them to be yet are we little or nothing concerned herein since they were not the Reformers of our Church Nor yet if they had is it the goodness of this or that person which we are obliged to defend but the truth of our Doctrine and the lawfulness and necessity of our Reformation Thus they make a great out-cry against Henry the Eighth what a bad man he was and what ill designs he had in throwing off the Popes Supremacy which was the most he did toward the Reformation but let his designs be what they would the thing it self was justifiable and good VVhat if a bad Emperor upon carnal designs should have supprest Heathenism and promoted Christianity as Constantine himself was accused by some is this any dishonour to the Christian Religion But little cause have Papists of all men to talk of ill instruments whilst they may remember from what a Trayterous Murderer and Usurper the Pope first received the title of Universal Bishop for which he had been long quarrelling with the Bishop of Constantinople And however they slander Calvin and Luther we might with much more reason and truth object what kind of creatures multitudes of their Popes have been whom they own as Heads of their Church even such monsters of men for all manner of impiety filthiness and cruelty as the world hath scarce ever heard of the like And this we have from those of their own Church who have written their Lives and their greatest Champions such as Bellarmine and Baronius cannot deny it L. But it s further objected against Calvin and Luther and the first Reformers that they never wrought miracles to shew they had a commission from God T. Our first Reformers never pretended to bring in any new Religion only they cast out Popish Innovations which had corrupted and defaced it and for this they needed no extraordinary commission from heaven nor any miracles to warrant the same For they preached no other but the same old Religion which was taught by Christ and his Apostles and was abundantly confirmed by the miracles which they wrought long ago And with us the Reformation was begun and carried on in a just and regular manner by our Rulers in Church and State who had full authority to make the same even as the Kings and High-Priests of old had to reform any abuses and corruptions which at any time were crept into the Iewish Church And as these needed no new commission from Heaven no new miracles to authorize them to rectifie disorders and reform the Church according to the rules of Moses's Law no more did our Reformers need them for the removing of those errors and superstitions which had by degrees been brought in contrary to our Saviours Gospel L. I see no reason indeed why miracles should be expected from them who only cast out new inventions and keep fast to the old Christian Religion which hath already been confirmed by so many and great miracles But yet my Author says that in their Church they have had miracles wrought in all ages such as curing the blind and deaf raising the dead and casting out of Devils which he accounts to make mightily for the honour of their Saints and of the Church to which they belong T. In the Primitive times indeed such miracles were wrought for proving of the Christian Doctrine that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and all that he taught most certainly true and this Doctrine so confirmed is the Religion which we at this day do openly profess in our Church But then I utterly deny that ever such miracles were wrought to prove the truth of Popish Doctrins properly so called as of Transubstantiation Pargatory Invocation of Saints c. for these were never taught by Christ or his Apostles and therefore could not receive confirmation from the miracles of their working As to any that are pretended to be done in the Church of Rome for the attesting of these they are meer cheats and forgeries or lying wonders agreeable to the nature of those false Doctrines which they are designed to confirm And though your Author talks of healing the sick raising the dead c. I can hear of no such thing done by any of them amongst us whatever they may pretend to in Popish Countries where it s an easie matter for cunning Priests to impose upon credulous people But were indeed any such miracles wrought for the proof of Popish Doctrines one would think they should be done amongst those they call Hereticks who stand in need of such arguments for their conviction rather than amongst their own people who need them not Great Stories they often tell of their casting out of Devils and for this knack are their Priests mightily magnified by their deluded followers and prefer'd before the Ministers of our Church who pretend to no such matter But that this is a gross cheat seems plain enough from hence that what their Priests pretend to in this kind for all that ever I could
Bishop to succeed him and so hath the succession continued to this day and therefore sure they must needs be an Apostolical Church T. In answer to this I shall wave the dispute whether indeed St. Peter was ever Bishop of Rome or no and shall pass by all that may be said of the frequent Schisms which have happen'd amongst them by their having sometimes two or three Popes at once and that for many years together nor shall I tell of the fine tricks and politick intrigues of the Cardinals at the Election of a Pope nor of those vile arts which are frequently used by such as aspire to that dignity all which tends very much to abate their honour and shews how unlike they are to the Apostles whose Successors they boast themselves to be But waving these things let me only desire you to consider how little force there is in this argument to prove their Church to be now Apostolical that once there was an Apostle Bishop of it except there still continue with them the same truth of Doctrine and purity of worship which the Apostles did at first teach and establish For let us grant that St. Peter and St. Paul with other holy men planted a Church at Rome yet is it not possible that here as well as at Ephesus might afterward arise men who should teach perverse things as we find it exprest Act. 20. 30. and thereby corrupt the Doctrine of the Gospel Was it not thus in many other Churches And may it not be so at Rome too yea most certainly we know it is so For though we grant that Church to have remain'd for a considerable time pure and uncorrupted yet for many ages by-past to this very day there have been such Doctrines and practices currently received and established in that Church as the Apostles never taught to them nor to any others And with respect to these I say they deserve not the title of an Apostolical Church meerly because an Apostle at first planted it and presided over it The Papists themselves will not now allow this title to any of the Greek Churches which were planted by the Apostles because they look upon them as erroneous and schismatical and certainly they themselves have as little reason to challenge it as any of their neighbours being at least as grosly degenerated as any though they may have more prosperity and greater numbers of people adhering to them It is not then so much the sitting in the same Chair as teaching the same Doctrines with the Apostles that makes a Bishop to be a true Successor of them Wherefore those Churches which were planted by holy men after the Apostles were dead and gone if they receive the same Doctrine and retain the same worship and Sacraments which the Apostles did these may most justly be accounted Apostolical Churches sound members of the One Holy Catholick Apostolick Church of Christ. L. I think there is great reason so to account them but it seems very unreasonable that any one Church should stile it self the Apostolick Church so as to exclude all others from that title especially so unsound a Church as that of Rome which is at this day so very unlike to what it was in the times of the Apostles T. It is indeed every whit as unreasonable as to arrogate to themselves alone the name of Catholick which we discoursed of before Nay let us suppose that the Bishops of Rome to this very day followed the example of the Apostles preached the same Doctrine led the same good lives and used the same holy worship and discipline so that their Church indeed deserved to be own'd as Apostolical yet what in reason could be infer'd from hence more than this viz. that the people in their own Diocess should be subject to them and that all other sister Churches ought to give them due respect and maintain such communion with them as those at a distance are capable of But it does not in the least follow that the Bishop of Rome is Christs Vicar upon Earth and their Church the only Catholick and Apostolick Church so that none must have this title but those who inslave themselves to the Pope L. You have said enough to convince me how very absurd it is for the Church of Rome to stile her self the Catholick Apostolick Church as if there were no other Christians in the world but Papists yet pray tell me may not the Church of Rome be reckoned a part of the Catholick Church T. At the best it is but a small part as I have before told you and also a very unsound part Yea I will not doubt to add that take the Church of Rome even in the largest sense as comprehending all those that submit to the Pope as Head of the whole Church under Christ they may justly be reckoned a Schismatical party dividing themselves from the rest of the Catholick Church setting up a false Head and Governour and appointing unlawful terms of communion And though in this respect the Masters and leaders of the faction are in the greatest guilt yet the people who are seduced are also more or less guilty according to the capacity they are in of geting better information But yet notwithstanding this schism they are in and notwithstanding the many errors and abuses that are amongst them whilst they profess the Christian Religion and own their Baptism they may be allow'd the name of Christians such as belong to the visible Church of Christ. And how uncharitable soever they are to us I hope there are many good Christians amongst them who do heartily believe the Gospel and live in obedience to it according to their knowledg and who on that account may be stiled true members of the Catholick Church as all honest true hearted Christians are notwithstanding those errors and faults they may be guilty of which do not utterly violate their Baptismal Covenant nor destroy that faith and holiness by which we are united to Christ the Head and so are living members of his body the Church But still I say this title belongs not to them as they are Papists embracing the peculiar tenents of their own Church but as they are Christians holding the essential Articles of the Christian Faith together with our own and all other Churches For as to Popery it is really a disease a corruption of the Christian Religion Yet as a diseased man may have his vitals so sound that even the Plague or Leprosie may not kill him so may there be some amongst the Papists in whom the great and common truths of Religion may be so deeply implanted and so faithfully retained and improved that the disease of Popery may not prove mortal Whilst they hold the foundation Jesus Christ and his Gospel though the hay and stubble which they build upon it shall be burnt yet may they through the mercy of God in Christ be saved so as by fire that is with great difficulty 1 Cor. 3. 11 12 c. And
Apostles assertion Rom. 14. 17. These are such silly trifling injunctions as those of the Pharisees about washing their hands before Dinner and the like and may as justly be rejected without any thing of a wicked will or any contempt of that Authority which God hath set over us L. But does not our own Church lay the same commands upon its members viz. that they abstain from all sorts of Flesh in Lent and at some other times T. No where that I can tell of Our Church indeed appoints times of fasting and abstinence for such good ends as I have before mention'd and these times are to be observed in such manner with respect to our diet as that these ends may best be obtained but neither in any Rubrick Canon or Homily that ever I met with does our Church place any Religion in the bare distinction of Meats as to the kind of them I mean in abstaining from Flesh of Beasts or Birds rather than from the Flesh of Fishes from Butter rather than Oil from Milk and Eggs rather than Wine and Oysters about these things our Church gives no rule that I know of If at such times we use a very strict temperance somewhat more than ordinary and do thereby become more Humble and Charitable more Devout and Religious the Church is satisfied and her design answered and whether we eat a little Flesh or a little Fish she is not at all concerned As to the Laws of the Land about eating Fish rather than Flesh at certain times they were Enacted upon a Civil account not a Religious viz. for the encouragement of Fishing-trade and Navigation for the benefit of Sea-Towns and the like as is exprest in some of the Statutes themselves and most plainly taught in the Homily concerning Fasting But let us hear what yet remains CHAP. XV. Of withholding the Scriptures from the Common-People L. THere is only one thing more which he endeavours to vindicate from the exceptions made against it viz. the forbidding to have the Scriptures in the vulgar language so that the people cannot be admitted to read the same who would be glad as he expresses it to read and understand the last Will and Testament of their Father T. And what can he alledge for this their cruelty to the people so contrary both to Reason and to the very design of Writing the Holy Scriptures as well as to many express commands delivered in those Sacred Writings L. He first says it is not forbidden so the Bible be not corrupted by Sectaries and if the people ask leave of their Superiours to whom it belongs to judge whether they are capable of it T. If by the peoples asking leave he mean their obtaining it he may say very truly though very simply that then they are not forbidden viz. when they have got leave But in the mean time it 's very rare that the people do or dare ask this leave since it 's lookt upon as an ill sign of one inclining to heresie as they call it and to very few by their good will do they grant this liberty not commonly to any but such of whom they have all possible assurance that they are most firmly addicted to their party As to his talk of the Bibles being corrupted by Sectaries so far as it concerns our English Bibles as for others they are able to speak for themselves it is a most false and malicious reproach nor are they able to prove it as hath been sufficiently shewn by the Learned Writers of our Church who have vindicated this our Translation from the frivolous objections which some Romanists have made against it But besides that this is a vile slander it is also a meer pretence as they make use of it to defend their forbidding the people to read our English Bibles For why else do they not more generally permit them to read the Bible of their own Translation their Doway-Bible and Rhemish-Testament They dare not well trust their people even with these notwithstanding all their corrupt glosses in the Margent to make the Text speak in favour of their own opinions at least they give little or no encouragement to the reading of them For you shall seldom find them in the hands or houses of Papists amongst us And though they are forced to give somewhat more liberty to such as live in Protestant-Countries or where there are great numbers of Protestants as in France yet if you go but over into Spain or Italy where the Pope and his Clergy bear more sway there you shall hardly find in a whole Country one Bible in their own language in the hands of any of the people Yea if it should be found it might bring them into danger of the Inquisition and perhaps might cost them their lives Thus severe they were also in England at the beginning of the Reformation and most vehemently opposed the Translation of the Scriptures into English and did all they could to suppress them even sometimes burning the Bibles together with the Martyrs in Queen Maries days being wont to say this was the Book that made all the Hereticks And it was indeed the Book from whence they learned those Truths which Papists as falsely call heresie as the Pharisees did that Christian Doctrine which St. Paul preached L. There is little doubt but that common people of the Romish Church are generally kept from reading the Scripture since I find not that my Author himself does directly deny it nay he rather owns it whilst he goes on to plead that all good things are not good for all some abuse wine though it be good and among Sectaries who will read the Bible some understand it one way some another whence arise daily new heresies For there are many hard passages he adds which are ill understood by people that have little or no learning So St. Peter testifies 2 Pet. 3. and therefore as when there is dispute about any clause in a Will the Will is put into the hands of Proctors Lawyers and Iudges skill'd in the Law so in order to our being sufficiently informed of the Will of our Saviour Christ we must go to Sermons and Catechisms there to be instructed in publick or private as much as we will T. This is their common objection against the peoples reading the Scriptures that they are in danger of mistaking the sense of them and so may fall into errour or heresie But pray consider if this be a sufficient reason for their not reading them might it not have served as well to prevent the first writing of them especially in a language which the common people understood yet thus it was at the first for the Law was given to the Iews in their own language and in the same was the rest of the Old Testament written Thus also the New Testament was written in Greek a language then most generally understood in the world And the Apostles wrote their Epistles to the Churches in this same language which the
therefore does not the Papist seem to be of the surer side L. No but the quite contrary I think may be concluded from this very Argument since as I have before heard from you this very uncharitableness of the Papists in condemning all that are not of their way makes their own Salvation to be very hazardous Judge not saith our Saviour lest ye be judged whilst the Protestant by his Charity shews himself to be a better Christian and consequently in the surer way to Salvation And had I no other Argument against turning Papist this alone would keep me from it that I should then stand bound by the Decrees of Popes and Popish Councils to look upon all men in a state of Damnation who are out of the Romish Church for so they have determined as I have often heard and my Author seems plainly to assert it T. There is a great deal of Truth and Reason in what you say For this is the current Doctrine of their Church though some of the common people will not own it But beside this it is to be considered that though a Protestant may have charitable thoughts of an honest Papist yet this makes nothing at all for the commendation of Popery since it is not for this that he is saved not for his embracing of Propery I mean but for his belief of the Gospel and his obedience to it In the mean time Popery is his disease and makes his condition very hazardous only we hope that possibly he may be saved notwithstanding it As a man that has the Plague or has taken poison it 's possible he may recover but yet his condition is very sad and full of danger and no man in his wits will venture upon Poison or a Pesthouse because there is a possibility of escaping Whatever Charity then we may have for a well-meaning Papist I 'le assure you we have no good opinion of Popery but do with great reason assert that they who embrace it do run a great hazard of their Salvation whilst they entertain Doctrines not only false in themselves but very pernicious in their effects being great hindrances to piety and holiness without which no man shall see God And beside their bad Doctrines great is their danger whilst they corrupt Religion by their Idolatrous worship and here in this Kingdom disobey their Rulers and Schismatically withdraw from that Church with which they ought to hold Communion and this meerly in compliance with the usurpation of a foreign Power These and many other ill things they do which we would not for a World be guilty of yet after all we are not rash to pass a Sentence of Damnation upon them to their own Master let them stand or fall to whose mercy we leave them whilst they deliver us up to Satan But this while our Charity gives small encouragement to a wise man to turn Papist L. If the rest of his Arguments be like this there 's no such strength in them as he boasts of T. You must not expect good Arguments for a bad Cause As to what he talks of condemning our Ancestors to Hell it no way follows though we should be of opinion that Salvation is not ordinarily to be had in the present Church of Rome For those Ancestors of ours who first embraced Christianity were no Papists paid no homage to the Bishop of Rome neither in those days had that Church defiled it self with those corruptions which were brought in by degrees in after Ages And withal the ignorance of our forefathers in those corrupter times may do somewhat to excuse them but should we continue in their errors who now enjoy the clearer light of the Gospel we were utterly inexcusable Whilst we have charity for our Ancestors we ought to take care of our own Souls Neither yet was there any time when the whole World own'd the Romane Church to be the only way to Salvation as he boldly and falsly asserts L. Surely no For when Religion was most pure in the Church of Rome no doubt but the Members of any other sound and orthodox Church might be saved as well as those of that Church which did not then claim jurisdiction over all other Churches as you have formerly told me nor was it looked upon as necessary to Salvation for a Man to own the Popes Supremacy in those early days T. Most certainly it was not nor is there any more reason that now it should I am sure this is none which your Author has produced viz. That Protestants generally grant it possible for a Papist to be saved whilst Papists will not grant that a Protestant can On which I shall bestow a few more words And pray take notice that this is a very deceitful way of arguing and has little of strength in it if it be well examined A Protestant is never the worse for a Papists hard thoughts of him nor a Papist the better for our greater charity to him We have other Rules and Measures by which we are to proceed in the present case and are to consider whether the Papist has any good reason for his uncharitable opinion else he himself may be hurt by it but not we nor our Cause Sometimes I grant in matters of difference a Man may be inclinable to yield to that which he perceives both parties are agreed in but this will by no means be found in the case before us For the Protestant does not grant the Papist to be in a safe way to Salvation nor yet that Popery truly so called is at all the way to Salvation but rather a great hindrance to it the utmost he grants is only this that possibly a Papist notwithstanding the dangerous errors and corruptions of their Church may be saved But in the mean time he asserts and he proves that the belief and practice of the Holy Christian Religion which is most purely profest amongst Protestants is the surest and safest way to Salvation Now when a Papist shall come and tell you that Protestants are no Christians have no Faith no Holiness are out of the Catholick Church and therefore cannot possibly be saved all this noise and nonsence ought no more to affect you than the ravings of a Mad-Man or the like rude and insolent Language of furious Quakers who like Mad-men indeed at their first coming up used to cry aloud to any Man that opposed them Thou art damn'd Man thou art damn'd And at this rate I have heard do the wretched besotted followers of Muggleton talk at this day And truly herein both they and the Papists deserve to be regarded all alike That is the Men pitied and their Censures slighted and despised And yet to shew you more plainly if it may be the folly of this way of Arguing let me give you a like instance whereby you may judge of it which with others of the same nature I find made use of by some of our Writers to this same purpose Suppose we then a Man sick
means he then by saying that none of the Ancients consent with us in all things In every little oppinion it 's scarce likely there were or ever will be two men in the World that do exactly agree No such agreement I am sure is to be found amongst the Divines of the Roman Church But as sure it is that we agree with the Apostles and Ancient Churches in all things material and substantial in all points of Faith necessary to Salvation For we embrace the same Holy Scriptures and the same Creeds which they did What means he again by saying that the Apostles were not of the Lutheran or Calvinistical Sect What that they were not followers of Luther or Calvin They were not like indeed but it 's enough I hope if Luther and Calvin were followers of the Apostles Thus what if he should say that the Apostles were not of the Church of England Is it not sufficient that our Church embraces the same Faith which the Apostles planted in all places where they came Wherefore we may with great reason conclude contrary to his extravagant and most uncharitable inferences that we have the true Christian Faith in our Church and not any new-fangled invention c. If the Apostles Creed be a Summary of the true Faith I am sure we have it since we do most heartily embrace this Creed and those Holy Scriptures whence it 's taken and therefore we are none of those false Prophets foretold in Scripture For whilst we keep close to God's Word as the rule of our Faith we are safe enough from deserving any such charge But how will they of the Romish Church acquit themselves from it whilst they have brought in many devices of their own to which the Apostles and Primitive Christians were meer strangers and therefore cannot be said to consent with Papists therein Such are their Doctrines of Purgatory Transubstantiation c. Such are their customs of praying in an unknown Tongue having private Masses where the Priest only receives in their publick Assemblies their half-Communions giving only the Bread to the people when they do Communicate c. None of these things were anciently taught or used in the Church and some of them but lately established amongst themselves These therefore we may justly say are new-fangled inventions devised of their own Brain contrary to Holy Scriptures And they who broach and maintain them are in this respect false Teachers and probably some of those who are foretold in Scripture at least they and their false Doctrines are condemned by it and that 's enough for our purpose L. It is so indeed and enough have you said to weaken and refute this his first Proposition If the rest have no more strength they are far from deserving that great title he gives them I shall rehearse the next if you please T. Presently you shall only take notice from what hath been said how plain the Answer is to that captious Question of theirs Where was your Religion before Luther Where was it Even there whereever the Gospel was received whereever the Christian Doctrine was own'd for that is our Religion and nothing but that It was therefore in the Primitive Church that was planted by the Apostles and in the whole Catholick Church in all succeeding Ages Our Religion was both in the East and the West even in the Roman Church it self For we grant they still retain'd the Christian Faith they kept and do still keep the Apostles Creed though they have added several new Articles to it and that especially in their Council of Trent which appear'd not in the World quite so soon as Luther Now the truly Catholick Ancient Christian Faith we receive but their new-coin'd Articles we reject So that before the Reformation our Religion was in their Church as Gold in a heap of Dirt or as one long since exprest it as the pure Flower amongst the Bran or as Corn among Tares And by the Reformation we only wash'd away this Dirt sifted out the Bran and plucked up the Tares But the old Religion the Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles remains pure and entire L. But say they where did the Apostles teach that there is no Purgatory no Transubstantiation c Yet thus the Protestants teach and therefore they consent not with the Apostles T. Yes certainly but they do for as I have formerly told you we therefore say there is no Purgatory c. because the Apostles say no such things which be sure they would have done had they been true since they are such weighty and material points as the Church of Rome now accounts them What the Apostles taught that we receive what they taught not we refuse as knowing they were faithful in delivering all that they received of the Lord. Judge then which of us consents most with the Apostles we who receive all their Doctrines but reject what they never taught of they who teach these new Doctrines which neither the Apostles nor any of their first followers ever delivered nor were they for some Hundred years after generally profest so much as in their own Church Yea these Novelties were never directly and formally established as Articles of Faith and made necessary for all men of their Communion to believe till in these latter Ages some of them as I take it not till the very Council of Trent not yet an Hundred and fifty years since which they call a General Council though packt up of Bishops of their own Sect and the major part the Popes own creatures who used all the foul arts imaginable to carry things according to his humour as is plainly to be seen in the History of that Council written by some of their own Church Now in respect of these Articles in which Popery chiefly consists we may with great reason retort the question and demand Where was your Religion before the Council of Trent And were the Apostles of the same opinion with these Trent Fathers Compare their Creeds together and it will easily appear Yea compare that of Trent with any other of the old Creeds such as the Nicene or Constantinopolitan and it will easily appear what additions they have made to the ancient Faith whereas our Church receives those very same Creeds without addition or diminution To conclude this though we readily grant their Popish Errors to have been before our Reformation from them for they could not be cast out before they were brought in yet the great truths of our Religion were taught and received in the Church some Ages before those Errors were ever heard of Our Religion then did not first appear in Luther's days when the Reformation was wrought but is as old as since the time of Christ and his Apostles being nothing else but pure Christianity resormed from the errors and abuses of Popery These things I have already oft mentioned but could not well avoid the repetition of them on occasion of this his first Proposition which by this time you see
that there are any other traditions of equal necessity to salvation which are not contain'd in these holy Scriptures 2 Note well that though the Church of God hath been a most faithful preserver of these holy Scriptures and hath carefully transmitted them from one generation to another yet it is not the Church which gives authority to the Scriptures as if she by any power in her could make that to be the word of God which is not so or unmake that which is indeed so No but the Church received for the word of God that which was delivered by holy men inspired by the Holy Ghost who gave full evidence of this their inspiration both by the nature of that Doctrine which they delivered and by the mighty miracles which God enabled them to work for the attesting the truth of this Doctrine both preached and written Now the Church which was in being in the first ages when these holy men committed their Doctrine to writing was a most competent witness of their writing those Books which go under their names and accordingly received them as the Sacred writings of such persons divinely inspired and so convey'd them to the next generation Thus the Iewish Church received the Books of Moses and the Prophets and thus the Primitive Christian Church received the writings of the Evangelists and the Apostles as also the Books of the Old Testament both upon the tradition of the Iewish Church and also upon the authority of our Blessed Saviour who own'd and approved of the same And thus the Books both of the Old Testament and the New have ever since by the good Providence of God been preserved in the Christian Church and handed down from one generation to another and so shall be we need not question to the end of the world And this same tradition of the Church whereby these holy Books are distinguished from all others and carefully delivered by the former age to the next following this we give all just regard to and do freely grant that this is of singular use for our information what Books belong to the Canon of Scripture what not and by this tradition we learn that this Book was written by this man under whose name it goes and another by that as for instance this by St. Matthew that by St. Mark c. But whilst the Church thus bears testimony to the Scripture to which testimony we give all due regard she does not I say give authority to it For there is a vast difference betwixt these two It 's the Kings hand and seal which gives authority to a writing containing suppose a grant of this or that priviledg but some credible persons his Secretaries or others who were witnesses to his signing or sealing of that writing may give testimony to it and so procure it to be own'd as authentick Thus the holy Scriptures which are recommended to us by the testimony of the Church derive their authority from God only who hath set to his seal that they are true as I have said both by the miracles that were wrought to confirm the Doctrine contained in them by the holiness of that Doctrine and many other circumstances relating thereto 3 Yet again take notice when I say we give such regard to the testimony of the Church I do not hereby mean the Roman Church as distinct from all others no by no means but the truly Catholick even the whole Christian Church whether of the East or West the North or South For this hath been the constant tradition of the whole Church in all ages ever since the Apostles that these Books were written by men divinely inspired and were given to be the rule of our faith and manners If some doubt was for a while made concerning a Book or two yet when these doubts were removed they were received into the Canon with the rest And this hath been the opinion not only of the Catholick Church but of most Hereticks and Schisinaticks also whose testimony here may be of great force whilst they could not but own the authority of Scripture even though they were confuted by it Yea to this I may add the acknowledgment of Heathens themselves or of Iews who lived in those times that the Books which go under the names of St. Matthew St. Paul c. were indeed written by them Thus we have a general current tradition not only of the Roman but of all other Churches in the world that such and such Books belong to the Canon of Scripture and this is commonly granted by Hereticks and Schismaticks themselves And even Heathens and Infidels who wrote against the Christian Religion have own'd these Books to be written by those persons whose names they bear who were eminent in that age for the propagating of our holy Religion So that we have a much more famous and uncontroulable tradition for it than that the Books which are said to be written by Tully Virgil c. are indeed their works which I think no body makes any doubt of Lastly from what hath been said you may infer that though we give just regard to this current tradition of the Universal Church by which these holy Books are convey'd to us as Canonical Scripture yet it does not in the least follow that we are therefore obliged to embrace all those Doctrines and practices of the Roman Church which she would impose upon us under the venerable name of Traditions of the Catholick Church whilst they are for the most part only the private opinions and usages of their own Church many of them of very late date and expresly contrary to the judgment and practice of the Christian Church in the first and purest ages of it as well as to the holy Scripture it self So that there is no more reason for our embracing these traditions of the Romish Church than there was for our Saviour and his Apostles to receive all the traditions of the Iewish Church by many of which they had made void the Commandments of God After all then Tradition rightly understood makes nothing against but apparently for us For if there be any other Tradition as universal as this of the Books of Holy Scripture our Church readily embraces it as before has been exprest And we will own that the summ of our Faith is brought down by Tradition viz. in the very form of baptizing in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost and more largely in the Apostles Creed wherein this form is explain'd We grant also that at first the Christian Faith was thus planted by the Preaching of the Gospel before the Books of the New Testament were written But now this our Faith is most plainly and fully contained in these Sacred Books whereas the additional Doctrines of the Romish Church are no more brought down by Universal Tradition than they are contain'd in the Holy Scripture which we assert to be the only sure and perfect rule of Faith and manners and upon all accounts much
their condition shall be let us leave to the just Judge of all men remembring the Apostles saying Not he who commendeth himself is approved but he whom the Lord commendeth How far the ill education and ignorance of any of them may serve to excuse or lessen their faults it becomes not us to determine But as to our selves we may safely assert that for us to go against the light of Gods Word and our own Consciences in professing their Errors and joyning in their corrupt Worship would be a piece of inexcusable and damnable wickedness Whereas on the other hand we may rest fully satisfied and assured that if we sincerely believe the Holy Gospel which is at this day purely and plainly taught in our Church and live in strict and stedfast obedience to the precepts of it which are dayly inculcated upon us we shall most certainly obtain that Eternal Salvation which in this Gospel is promised to all such obedient Believers Of this we are as sure as that God is true for Heaven and Earth shall sooner fail than one tittle of his Holy Word on which we depend L. Whilst we depend on this Word certainly we shall never be deceived or disappointed But methinks it 's very bold Language and little better than Blasphemy with which my Author concludes his Book when he says that his Roman Catholicks may at the hour of death with confidence use those words of an Ancient Writer O Lord if it be Error which we have believed we are deceived by thee for thou hast confirmed these things to us by such signs and prodigies as could not be done but by thee with more to that purpose T. This can only with truth be spoken concerning the Christian Religion to which God bare witness by mighty Signs and Wonders But to apply it to the false Doctrines of Popery is indeed no better than Blasphemy For neither our Saviour or his Apostles ever taught these Doctrines nor did God ever work a Miracle for the confirming of them L. Surely it would argue more modesty to suspect the weakness of their own judgment and better to examine their Cause rather than to charge God himself with deceiving them if they are deceived T. Very true but you know the Proverb None so bold as those that are blind otherwise certainly they have reason enough to suspect that Cause to be very weak which is supported by no better Arguments than these which your Author hath produced who yet no doubt hath given us the best he could devise of his own head or meet with in their Writers CHAP. V. Of the number of Sacraments with some other things briefly discust and the conclusion of the whole L. SIR I am now come to the end of my little Book and ought therefore to put an end to the trouble I have given you yet before we part will you please to satisfy me in one thing of which I find no mention in my Author T. I shall willingly when I hear what it is L. 'T is concerning the number of Sacraments for Papists charge it as a great defect upon our Church that we have but two whilst they say they have seven T. How little reason there is for this Charge will soon appear if you consider that as to four of these five which the Papists pretend to have more than we though we give them not the name of Sacraments yet we have the things themselves And as to the fifth there is not the least reason that we should receive or they retain it For your fuller satisfaction I shall name them to you and in a few words make good what I have said L. Pray will you please to do it and I shall trouble you with no more questions hereafter T. To the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lords Supper which both we and they receive they do further add Confirmation Holy Orders Marriage Penance and extreme Unction Now as to the name of Sacrament it 's a vain thing to dispute about words till we are agreed of the sense and meaning of them For if by Sacrament they mean any sacred rite or usage that may signify some grace or some good duty or by way of allusion may serve to some good purpose in Religion then instead of Seven they may perhaps reckon Seventeen Sacraments or many more And in this large and looser sense the Ancients commonly made use of the word giving the name of Sacrament to many things relating to Religion which are any way mystical or significant yea frequently they call our Religion it self a Sacrament or Mystery And if they of the Church of Rome will use the word in this large sense and so stile the several things now mentioned Sacraments let them enjoy their liberty I think it 's not worth contending about Only let them not say that we despise the things themselves because we think it not so fit to give them this name For by a Sacrament we understand as it 's exprest in our Church-Catechism an outward sign of an inward spiritual grace given unto us ordained by Christ as a means whereby we receive the same Grace and a pledge to assure us thereof Now in this sense we say that only Baptism and the Lords-Supper are properly to be called Sacraments being ordained by Christ's express command as a way and means for the bestowing of his Grace upon all that duly partake of them These are as it were the Seals of the Covenant of Grace as Divines use to stile them which all Christians if they have opportunity are obliged to make use of For hereby we do in a solemn manner profess our selves to be Christ's Disciples and engage our selves to walk in all holy obedience to his Laws and so make a Covenant with him and upon our sincerity herein we receive Grace from God to enable us for our duty and have an assurance of his favour and of all the blessings that flow from it in and through Jesus Christ. Thus hath our Lord plainly ordain'd that all who believe in him should be Baptized with Water in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost for the profession of our faith in him and for the receiving the remission of our Sins with spiritual Regeneration Thus did he institute the holy Communion commanding all Christians to celebrate the same in remembrance of him for a commemoration of his death till his second coming and hereby we partake of the Body and Blood of Christ for the refreshing and strengthning of our Souls Plainly then you see how these two Sacraments were ordained by Christ himself for the use of all Christians to be as it were the badges of their profession that hereby they might solemnly testify their consent to the Covenant of Grace and at the same time may receive the blessings of this Covenant But now this cannot be said of those other things which the Papists call Sacraments how useful soever any of them may be in other respects For though
up where they could a most cruel and bloody Inquisition for the destroying of those whom they call Hereticks even all that will not submit to their tyranny By slaughters in the open field and publick Massacres by burning at the Stake or murdering in Prison have they cut off thousands if not millions of innocent and good Christians Judge then whether are these men acted by the Spirit of Christ yea or no L. I think not since he tells us that he came into the world to save mens lives and not to destroy them T. To this let me add that whilst they keep up the name of Christianity and so may be said to sit in the Temple of God they have for their own ends most grosly corrupted this holy Religion ordering all their Doctrines and practices so as may conduce most not to the good of souls but to encrease the wealth and honour of the Pope and his Clergy Multitudes of whom especially those of higher rank have lived in pomp and pride yea wallowed in all riot and luxury and by the bad examples they give by the loose Doctrines they teach and the large Indulgences they grant upon easie terms they have done much to promote and encourage wickedness amongst the people Judg then I say whether is all this pride and ambition this sensuality and impurity this bloodiness and cruelty falshood and violence which is the very natural genius and spirit of Popery properly so called whether is it agreeable to the temper and design of Christianity L. I rather think it directly contrary thereto T. So far therefore it may justly be stiled Antichristian Yet herein do not mistake me as if I was so uncharitable as to censure all Papists to be such proud cruel vicious persons No far be it from me I hope there are many honest souls among them both of Clergy and Laity who as I have before said do according to their knowledg serve God in the simplicity of their hearts But this I assert that consider Popery as a thing distinct from Christianity the chief Doctrine of it being that of the Popes Supremacy it hath been and at this day is carried on by such ways as I have named even by force and fraud by plots and treasons by war and bloodshed And the governing part among them who are chief factors for this design the Court and Conclave of Rome with all their busie active instruments up and down the world are led and acted by such an Antichristian or Unchristian spirit as I have before described Most plainly do they prefer their own cause and party far above Christianity the greatness and glory of the Pope and his Clergy before the honour and interest of our blessed Saviour and the salvation of precious souls Insomuch that with these Grandees Religion is little more than a bare name and serves meerly for a cloak and pretence under the disguise whereof they can more effectually pursue their own carnal ends And for the obtaining of these they have so strangely altered it that by the use they make of it and the colours they give it a man would be apt to think that the great design of our Saviours coming into the world was not so much to redeem and save mankind as to advance his pretended Vicar the Pope and to make him the greatest and most absolute Monarch in the whole world Whereas in truth nothing can be more contrary to the life and temper of our Saviour and to the whole tenour of his Holy Religion than such an ambitious lordly spirit proudly affecting dominion and honour and the great things of this present world On this account then you may perceive how justly the Pope and his adherents who make it their chief business to promote this his Temporal greatness to the infinite prejudice of Christs true Religion may justly be stiled an Antichristian faction And if after all this it shall be found that there are Prophecies in the Revelation and other places of Scripture which foretell that such a great Apostasie there shall be from the purity and simplicity of Religion and that both as to time and place and many other circumstances agreeing to the Church of Rome as by many of our Learned Writers with great reason is asserted this will go very far toward a demonstration that the Pope with his Faction is indeed the Antichrist foretold in holy Scripture L. However that be it seems most evident that Popery is a Doctrine very different from true Christianity and in many things directly contrary to it and is carried on by courses no less contrary to the example and precepts of our Blessed Saviour T. And by this means I hope you do still more and more perceive that a man may be a sincere good Christian without embracing of Popery and particularly this foundation article of the Popes Supremacy On which having been so long let us proceed to somewhat else CHAP. VI. Of Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead and Indulgences L. THE next points which my Author mentions are Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead which he puts both together T. Not without cause for the latter depends on the former as they have now ordered their Prayers though neither of them upon holy Scripture as I doubt not but to manifest but tell me first what says he of Purgatory L. He says that the Apostle informs us in 1 Cor. 3. that there is a fire in the other world in which some slight faults of good people must be purged away before they can attain Heaven T. But if you read the place you 'l find no such matter There 's not a word said of fire in another world or that mens faults are done away by fire Only the Apostle is there speaking of those who add their own fancies and false Doctrines to the Truths of Christianity which Doctrines of theirs shall in due time be strictly examined and upon a narrow search shall be discovered and rejected even as the fire consumes hay and stubble And if the men that preached these Doctrines shall be found to hold the foundation so as to be preserved from destruction yet will they escape with great difficulty as a man that 's saved out of the fire And indeed this Text doth most aptly represent to us the condition of the Romish Church for whilst they retain the foundation of Christian Religion they do build thereupon hay and stubble many false and corrupt Doctrines as an excellent Writer of our Church in a Sermon upon this Text gives a full account in a little room And amongst others he reckons this of Purgatory of which with a pleasant sharpness he there says that though they have got to themselves gold and silver by this Doctrine and that of Indulgences which depends upon it yet is it as errant hay and stubble as the rest that is vain and false For neither this nor any other Text speaks a word concerning souls being held in Purgatory flames and that
probable are the wicked till then thrown into the sorest punishment And so far the condition of both may be said to be a middle state betwixt what it is now on earth and what it will be after the day of Judgment But in this state we know of nothing to be done either by the persons themselves or by any on earth for them to mend their condition The souls of the righteous are in the hand of the Lord in rest and peace chearfully expecting the perfection of their glory and joy and the condition of the wicked may seem most like that of the faln Angels as it 's described Jude v. 6. in everlasting chains of darkness reserved to the Judgment of the great day And betwixt these already is the great gulf fixt that there is no passing from one to the other to find or give relief Much less can the prayers or alms of surviving friends afford any refreshment to miserable souls And some there are even of the Church of Rome so modest and ingenuous that they have discoursed much at this rate concerning the middle state of souls departed and have exprest their opinion that it was not so much the prayers said for the dead that gave them relief as the charitable temper they died in when they left money for pious uses But for the freedom such Writers have taken both they and their writings have been severely censured and condemned at Rome L. What makes them so zealous in the case T. You need not go far for a reason when you consider how much gain is hereby brought in to the Crafts masters what vast summs of money are given to the Church by dying men frightned with the dreadful stories of Purgatory What will they not then give for a speedy deliverancé thence And this they are taught not to hope for without good store of Masses for which the Priests that say them expect to be well paid So that there is a great deal of truth in that common blunt saying that Purgatory-fire keeps the Popes Kitchin warm No wonder then if they are so angry with those that go about to quench it This Doctrine moreover it is that chiefly keeps up the market for Indulgences which whatever they do now were heretofore wont to bring in vast treasures to the Popes Coffers by several arts which he used in putting them off L. On what pretence do they give out these Indulgences T. Sell them you should rather have said for so they have used to do and did it at such a shameful rate in Germany as gave the first occasion for the Reformation there But to answer your question their pretence is that there is a vast treasure of merits in the Church and that not only of Christ's but of the Saints too who have done and suffered much more than was necessary for themselves so that they can spare somewhat for others And this treasure you must know is in the Popes keeping who can by the fulness of his power dispense it as he pleases and apply it to particular persons in what measure and upon what terms he thinks fit And the benefit of these is said to be the freeing them from temporary punishments due for faults already pardoned and this freedom they are to enjoy not only upon earth in being eased of long penances but also in Purgatory from whence they shall sooner be delivered by virtue of these Indulgences L. I do not well understand how there is a punishment still due after the fault 's pardoned T. Nor any body else I think for a fault is then said to be pardoned when the punishment is remitted Indeed God may so far pardon a Penitent as not to punish him with eternal misery and yet he may inflict bodily punishments in this life as a malefactor may have a pardon for his life and yet may be burnt in the hand or the like but so far as a man is punished so far he was not pardoned L. Do not these Indulgences then free men from bodily punishments which otherwise they must undergo T. That indeed would be somewhat if they could free men from Gout and Stone and all such diseases as do either naturally flow from their vices or are inflicted by God as punishments for them then I say a man would not grudg to purchase Indulgences at a dear rate for besides his ease and health it might save all the money spent upon Physicians But this alas the great Champions for Indulgences dare not pretend to and full easily they might be confuted if they did Wherefore Bellarmine confesses they do not free men from natural evils diseases or the like which are the fruits of sin nor yet from such fines and penalties as may in Courts be inflicted for their offences What then is left besides the imaginary pains of Purgatory But by the little force their Indulgences have in this world a man has cause to suspect they will be no more effectual in the other But the best on 't is no body comes thence to tell tales how they are cheated and so the trade goes on smoothly And were it mony only that the poor people are cheated of by these vile arts the matter were not much but alas we have great cause to fear that many are hereby deluded to the loss of their immortal souls of more value than the whole world instead of a temporary Purgatory from which they hoped to be secured at easier rates than a timely repentance and thorough reformation how many fall into that eternal misery which is threatned to the wicked and impenitent from whence no money nor Masses no prayers nor tears can ever release them L. Yet they say we Protestants are strangely unkind to our friends departed that we will not so much as put up a prayer to God for them but seem quite to neglect and forget them T. They have little reason to accuse us for this since of all the instances of charity any where recommended in Scripture we never find this mentioned that we should pray for our friends after they are dead Why then should we pretend to such a piece of charity as neither God hath commanded nor any the most holy charitable persons of old ever practised If it were fit for us to give way to our own fancies why might it not look like a piece of charity to pray for those in Hell that their pains may be mitigated or shortned But have we any warrant from God so to do Or dare Papists themselves presume to do it Such as these we look on out of the reach of prayers And for those in Heaven they surely are past the need of them farther than what was before mentioned that whilst we pray for the coming of Christ we therein comprehend the consummation of their felicity How little reason then have we to pray for our friends departed The greatest kindness that I know we can shew them is to preserve a grateful remembrance of their
read them so do we as plainly see that after Consecration the Bread and Wine still remain in their natural substances and therefore are made the Body and Blood of Christ in a spiritual and mystical sense according to the most common acceptance of such Phrases that relate to Sacraments as was before shewn L. You need add nothing more to clear this matter nor can I imagine what reply they can make except they shall say that we must not in this case trust our senses but exercise of our Faith T. This indeed they do say but with no manner of reason For though God requires the Exercise of our Faith in Believing what he hath revealed though our senses cannot reach to or discern it yet we never read in the whole Book of Scripture that ever he requires men to believe any thing directly contrary to the evidence of their Senses to believe it was dark as midnight when they saw the Sun shining at Noon-day to believe the same Man to lye dead in his Grave whom they saw alive walking before them For at this rate all our Saviours Miracles had been wrought in vain if men must not believe their own eyes as we use to say For we must consider that Almighty God hath so framed our Nature that we are to be directed and guided by our Senses in those matters that properly belong to them Nor can we I think in this present state have more clear and full assurance of any thing than what our Senses when sound and perfect convey to us And therefore I have said our Saviour took this way to give assurance of the truth of his Gospel and of his Resurrection by that satisfaction he gave to the very Senses of Men. Thus St. Iohn when he would give the clearest and fullest evidence of the truth of Christian Doctrine he tells us That which we have heard which we have seen with our eyes which our hands have handled declare we unto you 1 Joh. 1. 1 2 3. Now all this may assure us that those words This is my body are not to be taken in such a sense as would engage us to the belief of Transubstantiation Nay the Word of God it self assures us that they are not since in this Word as I have shewn from many places the Holy Bread in the Sacrament is called Bread after Consecration and therefore are we so to believe it and are to look upon it as his Body Spiritually and Sacramentally and so neither one Text contradicts another nor will our Faith contradict our Senses L. This is easie and intelligible and neither offers violence to the Word of God nor to the Reason of our own Minds T. Yet further let me add if the Senses of all Men throughout the whole world are thus deceived as they must be if Transubstantiation be true then is all certainty of any thing whatever in a manner utterly destroyed How can I tell that I tread upon the Earth that I see the Heavens over my head or the Sun shining in the Firmament In these and all other things which I think that I see or hear my Senses may be imposed upon as well as in the present Case And how then can I be sure that any Revelation was ever made from God to Man Or how could any Man be sure of it though a Voice came to him from Heaven or a Vision appeared to him All this may be but idle fancy and delusion his Hearing and his Sight are not to be trusted Yea let this opinion be admitted and how can we be certain of the truth of that which God hath in his Word revealed For if he deceive me one way why not another The same Holy and True God who hath revealed his Will in Holy Scriptures hath also made another sort of Revelation in the works of Nature He hath given me Senses of Seeing Hearing c. and hath proposed Objects agreeable thereto Now if I believe him to be so Holy and Good that he will not deceive me in his Word why may I not from the same Goodness argue that he will not deceive me in his Works But if he should do it in the latter why may he not in the former also L. They may say this is a particular Case and therefore though our Senses may herein be mistaken yet we have no reason to suspect them at other times T. A particular Case it is indeed and such as nothing like it can be instanced in nor yet any good reason assigned why our Senses may not at any other time be deceived as well as in this matter But strangest of all it is that we have no warning given us in Scripture not to trust our Senses in this particular Case though in all others we may Nor do we find any thing said to take off the prejudice that might arise in mens minds against so strange a Doctrine We hear of no Objections made of old against it by the Enemies of Christianity nor of any Answers given to silence or prevent such Objections Nay on the contrary as I have said when the Capernaites mistook our Saviour's meaning he let them know that his Discourse was to be understood in a spiritual sense Ioh. 6. 63. Thus certainly the Apostles understood it as also those Words This is my body else surely we should have heard of their doubts and objections at least they would have made some further enquiry about the sense and meaning of them Else how comes it to pass that we never find the least mention of this same Doctrine in any of the Apostles Sermons or in the Epistles written to any of the Churches Nay though there was so fair an occasion offered to St. Paul when he discourses about the Lords-Supper 1 Cor. 11. where he tells them that what he had received of the Lord he delivered to them but he is there so far from explaining or asserting the Doctrine of Transubstantiation that he teaches the direct contrary in calling it Bread over and over after Consecration L. Yet I have heard some arguing for it from those words of his that he who eats and drinks unworthily is guilty of the Body and Blood of Christ Vers. 27. Now say they how could this be so hainous a sin if the natural Body and Blood of Christ were not present in the Sacrament T. For that let the Apostles own words decide it for he there tells us that he who eats this Bread and drinks this Cup unworthily is thus guilty So that it is Bread which is eaten and consequently Wine which is drunk by the Receiver But to do this unworthily and irreverently rushing upon it as a common meal not duly considering the great importance and design of this Holy Sacrament as it is a commemoration of Christ's death and a Spiritual Feast upon his Body and Blood this must needs be an hainous Sin being an affront to Christ himself and a profanation of his Sacred Ordinance This is meant by
bound in the execution of this their Office to do what belongs to it for the rectifying of mens errors and reforming them from all evil and corrupt practices whether in the worship of God or in their common conversation And thus did those holy and learned men both Bishops and others behave themselves who were the blessed instruments of reforming the Church of England from Popery For the carrying on of which good work God inclined the hearts of our Kings to employ their power for the assistance and encouragement of the Clergy who were engaged in it And herein they did no other than what Hezekiah Iosiah and other pious Kings amongst the Iews did in reforming the Iewish Church And as they needed no new commission from Heaven then for the reformation they wrought having the Law of God to be their rule and warrant no more did our Kings and Bishops whilst they had the Gospel to be theirs according to which they proceeded by degrees Thus in the first place King Henry the Eighth abolished the Popes Supremacy that great fundamental falshood of Popery whilst he retain'd in a manner all other points of it But with great courage and justice he delivered his Kingdom from that yoke of bondage under which the Nation had long groaned even from the Usurpation of the Roman Bishop declaring that he had no manner of power or jurisdiction in his Majesties Dominions but that the King himself next under God and his Christ is Head of this Church that is the Supreme Moderator and Governour over all persons and in all causes as well Ecclesiastical as Civil in these his Realms Wherefore the King with the advice and assistance of his Bishops and Clergy may as lawfully take care for the Reformation of the Church according to the Word of God within his own Dominions as the Kings of Israel or Iudah might do in theirs Yea he is obliged to do it and no foreign power Prince or Prelate hath any the least right to hinder and controul him herein not the Bishop of Rome any more than he of Ierusalem or Antioch And thus far the generality of the Popish Clergy both the Bishops and the Universities concurr'd with the King even such men as Bonner and Gardiner The Popes power being thus broken and abolished this made way for a more thorough Reformation of the Doctrin and worship from many soul errors and superstitions in the days of Edward the Sixth This was for a while interrupted in the reign of Queen Mary but was afterward restored and perfected by the authority of Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory soon after her entrance upon the Government And thus was the Reformation of our Church according to the rule of Gods holy Word most happily begun carried on and compleated in a peaceable orderly and deliberate manner by just and lawful authority even that of the whole Kingdom whether Ecclesiastical or Civil Of which you have an account at large in a late accurate and full History of our Reformation by a Learned hand an Abridgement whereof is done by the same Author in a little room if the History it self be too large for you Our first Reformers then were no Impostors or false Prophets but were indeed sent of God though in an ordinary way being rightly Ordained to the Ministry and duly qualified for that Sacred Office they were guided and directed by the plain Word of God own'd and succeeded by his Providence allow'd and encouraged by his Vicegerents our Kings and Queens and the Reformation at length peaceably and firmly established by the Laws of the Land L. This doubt I think is clearly enough resolved and to me very satisfactorily Pray what 's the next T. He asks whether it can be made good what Luther and Calvin with all Protestants and Presbyterians have so long boasted they could do viz. Reform convincingly any one of the silliest Roman Catholicks that is and to begin let them do it in the matter of the Real Presence L. I do not well understand what he means by this For I think there is no question to be made of it but Luther and Calvin though they were not the Reformers of our Church with other learned Protestants have convincingly reformed many that were Roman Catholicks and in the matter of the Real Presence as well as other points these Converts have been convinced of their error and brought to a sounder judgment agreeable to Scripture and reason T. I think indeed there is more difficulty in finding out the meaning of this question than in answering it though somewhat like it he had before He cannot surely mean that no people who once profest themselves Roman Catholicks as his phrase is have ever been convinced of the errors of the Roman Church so as to forsake the same for thus it hath been with some whole Nations and particularly our own For we grant that in these latter ages our people were generally infected with those errors though from the beginning it was not so And as to Luther and Calvin though they did great service for the Reforming of the Church in their own Countries yet neither they nor any Presbyterians were the chief instruments of that work among us but holy Bishops and many sound and orthodox Preachers ordain'd by them who taught the truth as it is in Jesus and sealed with their blood the truth of what they taught These men by their zealous Preaching their holy living and chearful dying after the example of the Apostles and other Martyrs in the Primitive times did by Gods blessing win over thousands to embrace the Doctrine of the Gospel in its native purity rejecting those Popish errors in which before they had been blindly train'd up Wherefore he might as well say that the Apostles never converted any from Heathenism to Christianity as that our Ministers have never reformed any from Popery What then can he mean I can scarce guess what except that they cannot reform a Papist whilst he still remains one which is as if we should say that the Apostles never converted any heathens because whilst they remain'd heathens they were not converted But I am not willing to think him so weak and silly and therefore till he speaks plainer shall trouble my self no more with this but proceed to his next question which runs thus Can you prove to me clearly out of the written word which you teach ought only to be follow'd as the guide to Heaven that the Sabbath-day is commanded by God to be kept on Sunday and that little children are to be baptized L. Part of this was mention'd before viz. that about keeping the Sabbath for which you shew'd there is enough from Scripture to warrant our practice besides the constant custom of the whole Christian Church ever since the Primitive times and I suppose the same may be said for the Baptism of Infants T. I judge it may and that upon very good grounds For we know that Children were admitted members of
the Iewish Church by the solemn rite of Circumcision and since our Saviour hath no where given the least intimation that this priviledg should be taken from them I can see no reason why the children of Christian Parents may not be solemnly consecrated to God by Baptism and so admitted members of the Christian Church And to omit many other Texts which speak in favour of infants this without any wresting of the words may be fairly drawn from that commission given to the Apostles and their Successors Mat. 28. 19. Go ye therefore and teach or disciple all Nations baptizing them in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost They were to make Disciples of whole Nations which surely comprehends both Parents and Children First the Parents were to be instructed in the Christian Faith and upon their profession of it to be baptized And then they themselves being devoted to God and entred into Covenant with him since Parents have power over their children to dispose of them for their good and to lay engagements on them for that end surely it was lawful for them to devote their children also to God and to enter them into Covenant with him by Baptism thereby laying a strict obligation upon them when they come to years of discretion to perform their part of this holy Covenant if ever they hope for any benefit by it the Parents also being bound to acquaint their children with their duty so soon as they are capable of learning it Thus when any one from among the heathens became a proselyte to the Iews when he himself was circumcised so were his children also Yea learned men tell us that it was also the custom to wash these proselytes in pure water and that very probably our Saviour was pleased to accommodate himself to this same usage of theirs in his instituting of Baptism for the more solemn admission of members into his Church Now as an excellent Writer argues suppose that our Blessed Saviour instead of the word Baptizing should have used that of circumcising and have said Go teach all Nations circumcising them in the name c. would not all men have been apt to think that the same priviledg which the Iews had of admitting their children into Covenant by Circumcision that Christian Parents also should have the like why then may not the same be reasonably argued from the words though Baptism be here named and not Circumcision Very probable it is that the Apostles thus understood it and that they practised accordingly when we read of their Baptizing such and such persons and their housholds as Act. 16. 15 33. amongst whom there might be some children for any thing that can be shewn to the contrary And certain we are that very early in the Christian Church insants were admitted to Baptism and thence hath it continued to this day to be the general custom of all Churches throughout the world And pray take good notice that though our Church allows nothing to be imposed upon our belief or practice as necessary to salvation but what is contain'd in Gods holy Word yet she hath great regard to antiquity to the customs of the truly Catholick Church and the current Doctrine of the Fathers and requires Ministers to have due respect thereto in their Exposition of Scripture And therefore without any contradiction to her self may very well admit the observation of such customs that having so much ground from Scripture are recommended also by the early and general practice of the Christian Church This I say she may very well do but is by no means thereby obliged to receive all the traditions and customs of the Roman Church for many of which nothing can be truly pleaded either from Scripture or antiquity but very much against them from both L. This is very plain and satisfactory Pray let us have his next question T. It is this Can you make it appear to me how your Sectaries can with reason and sufficient ground condemn all the Catholicks that were so many ages before Luther and Calvin for being no better than heathens and convince me that by adhering to you I shall be more secure of my salvation than if I joyn my self to them that have been held time out of mind in most parts of the world for the men that have the true and only saving Religion What answer give you to this L. First I know no body that does thus condemn all Catholicks before Luther and Calvin For as to those Christians in the first ages of the Church who truly deserve the name of Catholicks whether of the Roman Church or any other we are so far from condemning that we admire and applaud them we approve of their Doctrine contain'd in the ancient Creeds and do imbrace and profess it we honour their memory and endeavour to imitate their example But as those of the Roman Church in latter ages whom he means I suppose by his Catholicks though we do not say they are as bad as heathens yet we do truly say that they have very much corrupted Christian Religion by false Doctrines and Superstitious usages and therefore we think it a much safer way to salvation to adhere to the ancient certain truths of Christianity every where received and to worship God in that pure and holy manner which our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles both taught and used than to embrace those additions made by the Roman Church which are no parts of true and saving Religion nor have ever been so accounted by the generality of Christians And though our ancestors might have some excuse from the state of this Church in their days yet we their posterity should be utterly inexcusable if now that our Church has so justly reformed her self from Popish corruptions we should break off from her communion and go over to the Church of Rome that hates to be reformed This were to add the guilt of Schism to that of Superstition T. Your answer is very clear and full and may well enough serve for the solution of his fifth Query which is to the same purpose with the former viz. Can you make evident at least that in your little flock or in Luther and Calvin their guides more holiness and virtue was to be found than in the Catholicks And that it is this little flock of yours not the Catholicks that go the narrow way that leads to life L. To this may easily be answered as you have formerly instructed me that though Luther and Calvin were learned and good men who in their own times and places did much service for the Reformation of Religion yet they never had authority in our Church nor do we own them as our guides The blessed Iesus is the Author of our Religion and after him the holy Apostles were the teachers of it being no other than Christianity it self and consequently the true way to eternal happiness even that narrow way of truth and holiness which the whole flock of Christ
in Religion amongst our selves by proposing Articles of peace suppressing disputes about obscure and unnecessary matters and by determining of things indifferent in the worship of God according to the general rules of Scripture which principles being heartily embraced and honestly practised will procure as much peace and union in every Church as can be expected in this state of imperfection And by this means thanks be to God there is more true Christian unity to be found in our Church than amongst Papists themselves notwithstanding their Infallible Judg Pope or Council or they know not well who And what appearance of union there is amongst them is to be ascribed rather to the peoples ignorance than to the Popes knowledg yea to the Inquisition much rather than to his Infallibility L. I am well satisfied in this matter But before I proceed to the next mark pray tell me what is that unity which is required in a particular Church to make it lawful for a man to hold communion with it T. Plainly it is this that it be in union with the Catholick Church by holding the same faith which it has always held and using the same worship in all things substantial which it has always used And thus doth the Church of England whilst it owns the Holy Scripture as the Rule of Faith and receives the ancient Creeds wherein this Faith is briefly comprized which Scripture and Creeds have been generally received by the Catholick Church in former ages as well as this And in our Church is established the solemn Worship of the true God in the name of Jesus Christ and here the holy Sacraments are administred according to this rule of Holy Scripture and after the pattern of the Catholick Church in all ages from which the Church of Rome is most grossly degenerated as you may anon be more fully informed L. But does not the Church of Rome receive the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Creeds that we have and worship the true God in the name of Iesus Christ T. Yes they do so and thereby they do plainly approve of and confirm what we hold But then they have made additions of their own to this Faith and have brought many corruptions into this worship and thereby have occasion'd one of the greatest schisms that ever happened in the Church and are themselves the Schismaticks because they make unlawful terms of communion and exclude those who comply not with these terms So far as they are One with the Catholick Church we are One with them So far as they retain that Faith and Worship which has ever been approved of in the Church since the days of Christ and his Apostles we are ready to joyn in communion with them but the errors and corruptions which in latter times have been added and imposed these we utterly reject In these we must dissent from them that it may appear we are one with the ancient Catholick Church which never own'd many of those things which they now impose and we renounce as I shall after shew But let us proceed if you please to the other marks CHAP. II. Of the second mark of the true Church viz. Holiness L. THE next mark of the true Church is that it 's Holy which they say agrees to their Church not to ours Their Doctrine they pretend is holy not ours in their Church are multitudes of holy persons to be found whole Orders of them but out of it they say there is no true holiness no holy people nay nor can be T. It is a matter to be sadly lamented by all good men that among Christians of what profession or Church soever there is no more true piety and holiness to be found and that generally they are more zealous for promoting their own party and private opinions than holiness and righteousness without which we cannot be saved let the Church we are of be never so true and our opinions never so sound and orthodox But in this respect I do verily think there is no Church in the world more guilty than the Church of Rome nor any that less deserves to be stiled an Holy Church For proof of this I intend not to insist on that general loosness and impiety which abounds in Popish Countries and no where perhaps more than in Italy and Rome it self the Seat of his Holiness as they stile the Pope and yet a very sink of all sensuality and profaneness But that which I would have you chiefly to consider is this that several of those Doctrines of their Church which are properly stiled Popish and in which they differ from us do manifestly tend to the prejudice and hindrance of an holy life and do rather serve for an encouragement to sin and wickedness As for instance whilst they abuse the people with idle stories of Purgatory where they may make satisfaction for their sins and where they shall sometimes find much ease and at last be delivered out by the prayers that are said for them by Priests after their death to whom good store of money must be left for that end How does this tend to harden men in their sins and to prevent their timely reformation whilst the hope of a Purgatory takes off the fear of Hell Thus also they teach that Attrition that is being sorry for their sins for fear of punishment will procure their pardon if they make confession and are absolved by a Priest And at most easie rates do they grant Absolutions and Indulgences which must needs make men much more careless of their lives more bold to venture upon wickedness for which they have a pardon so ready at hand But besides these and other hurtful opinions we may plainly discern that in the several branches of Religion their gross corruptions have done much to destroy all true piety and goodness For instance instead of a serious spiritual affectionate worship of God which might help to conform the souls of men to the holiness of that God whom they worship they have invented a world of useless ridiculous Ceremonies which turn it into a kind of bodily exercise that little profits the soul. They have publick prayers in an unknown Tongue where it s enough for the people to be present though they scarce understand a word and what benefit can this afford to their minds Here also contrary to Gods express command they have brought in the worship of Images the Invocation of Saints and Angels especially of the Blessed Virgin as also the adoration of the Host that is of the consecrated Bread in their Mass all which are horrid impieties And even a great part of their private Devotions consists in saying over their Pater Nosters and Ave Maries so many times by rote of which they keep count by a sett of Beads And is this a due worship of God in spirit and truth with affection and reverence such as our Blessed Saviour enjoyns and as the very nature of God requires from all reasonable creatures Moreover as