list but haue no cause R. VVas not your Father and Grandfather and their Fathers before them for many ages Papists C. What of that they who in regard of time and truth were long before them and should be followed as Fathers to vs and them both were Protestants R. That is but a shift of your owne C. It is no shift it is a truth and you shall see it your selfe if you will consider who were Pauls Fathers whom he saies he followed in the worshipping of God R. What were the names of his Fathers were I cannot tell but I see they haue been Israelites of the Tribe of Beniamin C. We haue not that to stand vpon what they were for their persons or names either but what was their Religion remember you not that hee sayes himselfe he was brought vp at the feet of Gamaliâ—l R. Yea I doe C. Tell mee now of what Religion was Gamaliâ—l R. I see he hath been a Pharesie C. And think you that Saint Paul when hee made his Apologie worshipped God after the manner of Pharesies R. I thinke it not C. How then sayes hee that he worshipped God after the maner of his Fathers seeing his Fathers were Pharesies R. I thinke he meanes not of these fathers who liued last before him but transcending them he passes vp to his elder fathers Abraham Isaack Iacob C. Was hee not then wrongfully accused of noueltie as one who had forsaken the religion of his fathers because hee forsooke the Religion of such Fathers as liued last before him R. I thinke so indeede His Apologie cleares him sufficiently both of heresie and noueltie which his aduersaries would haue imputed to him C. Now Sir I haue you where I would why should not the like Apologie cleare vs in the like case for albeit we haue foresaken the heresies of Papistrie maintained by them that liued last before vs yet doe wee worship the Lord our God as these fathers did whom Iustin Martyr callâ—s Patres Patrum whom with him we will prefer to any posterior fathers whatsoeuer R. That cannot be seeing it is known it is not threescore yeers since your Religion came into this Country C. No Sir I will make known to you that it is 1500 yeeres since this same Religion preached and professed now was then preached and professed by our Ancient fathers The first Religion that euer we had was gentilisme our fathers worshipped Diana the Sun the Moone the Starres R. That was a pittifull blindnesse C. So it was indeed but in the first hundreth yeere we embraced Christianity and eight hundreth yeere after Christ we were infected with Papistrie and now againe hath God called vs by the light of the gospel to our ancient Religion of Christianity whereby wee worshippe the Father in his sonne according to his word and no other way R. You speake faire enough to it be as it will but if it be true that you say then would you be in communion with the Catholike Church C. And so thanks to God we are reioycing as I said vnto you that the Lord by his Gospell hath called vs to bee Christian Catholikes R. That is alsoâ— a new stile of your owne that you will bee called Christian Catholikes C. If you were acquainted with antiquity you would not call it new with many such nouelties you charge vs which are indeed ancient truthes it is eleuen hundreth yeeres since in the seuenth Councell of Carthage professors of the Gospell were called Catholike Christians R. But to let the style passe how can you say you are in coÌ„munion with the Catholike Church seeing you haue made separationâ— from the Romane Church and refuse to bee stiled Roman Catholikes C. The Romane Church in her best estate was neuer more but a member of the Catholike Church and there is no more reason to cal the Roman church the Catholike Church nor to say that Rome is all Italy or Paâ—â—s is all France but now seeing the Roâ—an Church hath plaied the Whore made a shameful Apostasie from her first estate wee haue done no wrong in seperating from her but for our warrant haue Gods owne Proclamation commanding vs to doe so R. Where haue you that Proclamation C. There it is Come out of Babell my people R. But no word is there of Rome C. I shall proue to you that this Babel is Rome and your own Doctors cannot deny it R. If you make all good you haue said I will say no more but there is many one beguiled C. If you will heare mee by Gods grace I shall make it good R. I will not refuse to heare you and I trust also to answere you C. It is not me you shall hear but the voice of the Gospell which if it were heard at Rome I am of that mind the Popes kingdome should not long continue R. It will bee hard for you to get hearing there C. And why since Sodomits there haue their brothels and Iewes haue their Synagogues wherein they curse Christ why may not Protestants bee tolerated to haue a Church wherein to preach R. Good sooth they loue you worse then any of them I thinke it true for onâ— Deuill can dwell well inough with an other yea a legion of them in one man but none of them will giue place to Christ. But tell me how long God willing mind you to stay in this towne R. I hope to be in it all this weeke C. Then I pray you let vs spare euery day one howre or two for conference and I will come to you to your owne chamber R. Agreed am I and let our conference to morow continue about antiquitie for I think it somewhat strange that you should pretend it C. Well let it be so THE FIRST DAYES CONFERENCE Concerning Antiquitie in General R. WElcome Sir I see you are a true man and keepe promise C. What I am not in good faine would I be R. Thinke you not best we begin where wee left yesternight C. Yea indeede R. What say you then of Antiquitie will you not graunt that to bee the true Church which hath the most auncient Doctrine C. That is a thing out of all question the Doctrine which is most ancient I embrace and beleeue to be most true R. You will myre your selfe incontinent for these which yee call corruptions in the Church of Rome some of them will be found a thousand yeares old C. What is that to the matter Seeing the truth whereby we condemne these corruptions will be found elder then they and wee to speake with Vincentius wil euer preferre the olde Faith to new vnfaithfulnesse for if you thinke this a good Argument Such a doctrine or ceremonie should be receiued because it is one thousand and two hundred yeares old then by the same reason the heresies of Simon Magus must bee receiued for a truth because they were taught by him one thousand and sixe hundred yeares since R. But said you not euen now you would acknowledge that to
be most true which is most ancient C. I say that same yet And that you may conceiue it the better I pray you consider that truth and errour suppose they came not of the same parents yet in regard of time they are like two twinnes but the vantage of time that is truth hath it suppose very little R. I pray you let me heare that at more length for I see it will greatly helpe to cleare this point C. Will you goe vp to the Church in Paradise and you shall see the first voice that sounded there was Gods voice For in the first two Chapters of Genesis you will heare nothing but Deus dixit God said but incontinent in the third Chapter comes in Et Serpens dixit and the Serpent said R. I see that clearely C. And I am glad you doe so But I pray you consider wil any man be so mad as to thinke that Sathans lies shall bee receiued for a truth because they are now neere sixe thousand yeares old R. It were no reason indeed because albeit his lies â—ee olde yet as you haue said there is a Truth elder C. I pray you remember that that it may confirme you against the craft of Sathan when hee would couer errour with a shew of Antiquitie R. I hope to doe so C. Now will yee come down againe to the dayes of Christ Iesus may you not see that when our Lord sent out his Apostles Sathan also sent out his false Apostles and when Simon Peter comes out to Preach the Gospell Simon Magus is stirred vp to Preach heresies R. I see that also C. Then let vs agree in this since Truth is to bee sought from our fathers according as we are commanded Enquire for the good and olde way we will goe seeke it from our most ancient fathers R. Truely it caries with it I thinke a reason that we should not be mooued with the opinion of any father where they varie from the doctrine of the first fathers C. You speake now as you should and as before I shewed you was the mind of that ancient father Iustine Martyr when it was obiected to him such a father thought such a thing he answered Sed pater patrum Apostolus aliter sensit And herein to confirme you if controuersies of Religion were decided as our Sauiour decided the question of Polygamie the debate betweene vs and the Romish Church were soone ended R. How did Christ resolue that controâ—ersie of Polygamie C. By this rule It was not so from the beginning Leauing this to vs as a maxime in Religion and a most sure rule whereby to trie truth from falshood What hath not beâ—ne from the beginning let it bee reiected as a noueltie And herein the ancient fathers agree with vs. Be yee sollowers of me saith the Apostle as I am of Christ if I or an Angel c. Mihi antiquitas Iesiâ— Christus est cui non obedire manifestus est irremissibilis interitus Ignat Epist. ad Philad Non attendendum quid quis ante nos faciendum putauerit sed quid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit Cypri lib. 2. Epist. 3. Neque enim hominis consueâ—udinem sed Deiveritatem sequi oportet Ibid. Non est de consuetudine praescribendum sed ratione vincendum Ad Quintinum Obstinatio est praesumptio humanam traditionem diuinae dispositioni anteponeâ—e nec animadvertere â—ndignaeri irasci deum quoties diuina praecepta soluit praeterit humana traditio Ad Pompeium Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris Ibid. Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus Ibid Frustrà quidam quiratione vincuntur consuetudinem nòbis opponunt qâ—asi conâ—uetudo sit mator verâ—â—â—â— â—d â—ubaâ—anum Nec 〈◊〉 nâ—c mâ—iorum erroâ— seqâ—â—â—â—â— eâ—â— sed auâ—horitas Scriptâ—râ—râ—â— â—â—i docem is imperâ—â—â—m 〈◊〉 â—â—â—iaei poâ—â— Baalim abieruns quos â—idicerunt a patribus Hieâ—on in lerem cap. 9. Omnes hâ—retici aetati Eccleâ—ie vniuer saâ—is comparati minores tempore congrue vocantur quia ipsi ab eâ non autem ipsa egressa est â—b illis Greg. in Iob. lib. 10. Sect. 37. Sicut in omnibus veritas imaginem antecedit postremò similitudo succedit ita prior veritas quam haeresis Tertul. praescrip aduersus haeret R. But what makes these against the Church of Rome C. Yea very much for all these nouelties which shee hath inuented and intruded into the Church she colours them with the shadow of ancient custome and so very craftily vnder the name of Antiquitie fights against Antiquitie R. It is not enough to affirme that vnlesse yee qualifie it C. I will make it cleare to you if first yee heare a notable testimonie oâ— Vincentius to this same purpose R. What sayes he C. It is a propertie of Christian modestie not to deliuer their owne things to the after-commers but to keepe things receiued from their fore-beers R. Very well that place makes â—gainst you who will not keepe the Religion of your fore-beers C. It makes not against vs but against the Church of Rome who hath departed from the Religion of them who are theirs and our foreâ—eerâ— also as the remnant of his words will declare vnto you R. Reade them out then C. Hee is expounding heere he Apostles words If I or an Angell from heauen should bring to you another doctrine then that which yee haue receiued let him be accursed R. What sayes hee of it C. These are his words If Peter if Andrew if Iohn yea if the whole Apostles would Preach to you an other way then is deliuered in the Gospell let them be accursed To Preach vnto Christian Catholickes besides â—hat which we haue receiued was neuer is neuer shall neuer be lawfull R. Let it bee so the Church of Rome hath deliuered no doctrine but that shee hath recâ—iued C. Yes but shee hath and now once for all I will giue you amongst many one cleare example of it In the thirteenth Session of the Councell of Constance as is Recorded by Carranza one of your owne and Registred in your Canon Law there is an Act made of this tenour Licet in Primitiuâ Ecclesiâ huiusmodi Sacramentum reciperetur a fidelibus sub vtraque specie tamen haec consuetudo ad euitandum aliqua pericula scandala est rationaâ—iliter introducta quòd a conficientibus sub vtraque specie a laicis tantummodo sub specie panis suscipiatur Albeit in the Primitiue Church this Sacrament was receiued of the faithful vnder both the kinds yet to eschewe some perils and offences this custome now with very good reason is brought in that the Priest should receiue it vnder both the kinds but the people should receiue the bread onely and not the cup. What thinke yee now of this place Hath not the Church of Rome here deliuered a Doctrine which shee hath not receiued Is there not heere a manifest changing
different opinion from Policrates and the Churches of the East and Ierome had his owne discordance with Augustine against the exposition of the commandement Thou shalt beare no false witnesse in that question de mendacio and the first Fathers of the Primitiue Church were Chiliasts shall it thereupon follow that because in this point they taught not in all things as we doe that therefore they were not a Church R. It is no reason C. Cyprian in the point of rebaptising taught not as Cornelius what of that will it follow that hee was not a faithfull Pastor or the Church of Carthage was not a true Church R. It followes not indeed C. Why then doe you vrge me to giue you one before Luther or Caluin who in all points taught as we teach The Doctors of the Church both ancient and recent are men subiect to infirmities for no man vpon earth hath his vnderstanding perfect whereof it comes to passe that in some things one of them differs from an other But as to the Articles of the faith and substance of Christian religion whereby comes saluation sure it is Tertullian and Cyprian Ambrose Aâ—gustine Luther and Caluin haue all deliuered oâ—e doctrine and did teach the way of God truly R. Theâ— you thinke the Fathers of the Primitiue Church were of your Religion C. I think sâ— indeed hope to die in that same faith whereâ—â— they liued and died R. It would bee thought strange to heare that in Italie that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church were of the Protestants Religion C. No maruell it be strange there where Truth is a stranger but this answere was giuen you and them both by a worthy Doctor of our Church and wee yet stand to it Patres in maximis sunt nostri in multis varij â—n minimis vestri Such Fathers as haue written before vs and you both in greatest things are ours in many thinges are doubtfull in smallest thinges they are yours R. Well I shall remember that God willing but in the dayes of Papistrie wherewith you say the world was blinded where was your Church C. Answere me but an other question and it shall resolue you R. What is that C. Your Doctors say that when Antichrist shall come the Church shall â—lie to the desert that is as themselues expound it The Church shall bee without publike state of regiment and open free exercise of holy functions neither shall it bee unknowne to the faithfull which follow it as this day may bee seene the like by the Church of Romane Catholiques in many parts of England R. What doth that helpe you C. Very much that which they themselues say will bee done wee say is done Antichrist hath alreadie chased the Church to the wildernesse and so oppressed it that for a time it had no publike state of regiment nor open free exercise of holy functions yet was it not vnknowne to the faithfull that followed it nor to the enemies that persecuted it as this day may bee seene by the Church of Christian Catholikes in many parts of France R. Will ye make that cleare and I thinke you haue wonne much C. What greater clearenesse can you craue If this answere bee good to cleare the Popes Church when they say it will bee obsâ—ured by Antichrist and yet be is it not as good to iustifie our Church when we say it hath beene obscured by Antichrist and yet was R. The answere is good enough only if you can I would haue you qualifie it more particularlâ— C. There is not one age since the dayes of Christ vnto this day wherein I can not point forth men preaching and professing as wee doe but because your doubt is specially of the time of Papistry I will let you see it is a needlesse question for the Popes Church to demand of vs where our Church then was for they found vs alwaies in their teeth before euer Luther or Caluin was borne R. Make that good C. Remeâ—us a Popish Inquisitor who liued more then three hundred yeeres agoe speaking of the poore men of Lyons and calling them in contempt Valdenses Leonistae sayth they were more pernitious to the Church of Rome then all other sects foâ— three causes First because it hath beene of longer continuance for some say this sect hath endured since the Apostles times The second cause is because it is more generall for there is almost no land in the which this Sect doth not creepe The third cause for that all other sectes doe bring an horror with the hainousnesse of their blasphemies against God but this Sect of Leonists hath a great shew of godlinesse because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all thinges well concerning God and all the Articles which are contained in the Creede onely they blaspheme hate the Church of Rome Now there is the testimony of an enemy making answer for vs which may serue to stop the mouthes of all our enemies from demanding of vs any more Where was your Church before Luther R. I but hee calles them a Sect and saies they blasphemed the Church C. So the Priests of the Iews called the Church of Christians a Sect of Nazarits Act. 24.5 What is that to the matter yet he grants they are such a Sect as first had beene from the beginning secondly had beene in all Countries thirdly was honest in lise sound in faith saue onely that they helde the Church of Rome to be the whore of Baâ—el And that yet this preiudice which you haue conceiued of our Church may bee further remoued out of your mind I pray you consider this Think you not that with good reason we may affirme that we are in communion with them who haue taught the same doctrine that we teach if our doctrine was in former ages you will not deny that our Church was then also R. That can not bee denied C. Well then if you please name mee any controuersie of religion concerning any Article of faith betweene vs and the Papists thiâ— day and you shall see that the ancient fathers take our part in it R. That is strange for they repose their chiefest strength trust in the ancient fathers C. Bragge what they will it is true I say they may well boast in the drosse of fathers decke their errors with it but wee shall bring you their finest gold Name you the controuersie you shall trie that which I say to bee a truth R. There are so many controuersies among you that I know not which of theÌ„ to name first C. Then will it please you to take a view of these which I haue gathered for my own priuate vse R. With a very good will let me see what they are C. They are here in a little sâ—role and I haue collected theÌ„ for my owne confirmation in the faith for as first of all I learned the way of saluation in the Scriptures so finding that the Doctors of the Primitiue Church exponed
from the Sonne R. Yea I see that and it is good reason C. Then if you will come and heare what the Son saies you shal see that as the Father sends vs to the Sonne so the Sonne sends vs to the Scriptures if we would haue eternall life search the Scriptures and he witnesseth plainely Iohn 17.8 The wordes which thou gauest mee I gaue them meaning to his Disciples Where againe if you looke to the Disciples words The Scripture sayes Saint Paul is able to make the man of God perfect and therefore hee protests Act. 20 that he taught nothing but Moses and the Prophets and yet that hee had deliuered to them the whole counsell of God See you what a comfortable harmonie is here The Father bids vs heare the Sonne the Sonne protests the wordes the Father gaue him hee gaue to his Disciples and both of them sends vs to the Scripture as conteining the whole counsell of God concerning our Saluation R. I see all that clearly C. Then what spirit are they led with that dare say It had beene good for the Church the Scripture had neuer beene R. Who dare say that C. I haue heard with mine eares defenders of Papistrie say it and the positions of their owne Doctors no lesse blasphemous are extant to bee seene Lectio Scripturae non â—antùm est invtilis sed pernitio samultis modis the reading of Holy Scripture is not only vnprofitable but pernicious And therefore they wil not let the people read nor serch the Scripture though Christ commanded so to doâ— and instoade of Scripture they intrude on the Church their owne decrees and other traditions which they make of equal authoritie with the Scripture Thus you see how they take away Christs Propheticall office Now to come to his Priestly office you know the Priests office was twofold first hee ought to sacrifice for the people next to pray for them R. And they acknowledge both these that Christ hath offered himselfe in a propitiatory sacrifice for our sinnes and that hee still makes intercession for vâ— in heauen C. I but they so acknowledge it that in both these offices they ioyne others with Christ and so make him not a full and perfect Sauiour of his people by himselfe but a halfe-Sauiour in part R. I vnterstand not that C. I shall make it cleare to you There is the testimony of thâ— Word concerning the sufficiency of the merite of Christs bloud The bloud of Christ his sonne clenseth vs from all sinne R. They will not be against that C. But they are when they make this distinction that principally Christs bloud clenseth from sinne but secondarily there must be other things with it to clensâ— sinne as works of satisfaction in this life and fire of Purgatorie in the life to come By these also according to their ownâ— doctrine sinne is clensed R. For my own part I would alwaies reserue to Christ his owne glorie which I know hee will not giue to any other C. You haue reason for you and you shall thinke it so much the more if you consider with me these two testimonies R. What are those C. The first is Heb. 1.3 That Christ by himselfe hath made purgation of our sinnes R. What will you gather of that place C. A most necessary obseruation for clearing this controuersie to wit that the purging power of sinne is personâ—ll to Christ he hath done it by himselfe the vertue and benefâ—â— of iâ— hee communicates to others that repent and belieue bouâ—â—e meriting power by which God is reconciled and his iustâ—câ— satisfied he transfers not nâ—ither to any mans person nor any other thing beside R. Surely according to my vnderstanding that is a truth wherin euery Christian should rest for it is most comfortable to the conscience since wee are not â—blâ— neithâ—r in whole nor in part to satisfie for our owne sinnes C. It is so indeed and that you may bee the more confirmed will you looke how the Iesuites who 〈◊〉 the light because it conuinceth them of darkenesse inâ—translating this place leaue out tâ—is word By him selfâ— they say he makes purgation of sinnes but passe by this word by himself looke you their owne translation R. I seâ— indâ—ed they haue it not â—n their traâ—slation but is it I pray you in the Greeke text C. Yea forsooth if you can read it these are the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 R. In truth this one place makes all their doctrine concerning the supplement of Christs merits iustly to be suspected for since he hath made the purgation of our sinnes by himselfe what should we looke that they are to bee purged by any other C. You reason well R. I speake as I think it is either pittiful ignoraÌ„ce that they see not the truth or their wilful malice that they dare mutilate so cleare a place of holy Scripture leauing it out of their Bible because it â—akes against tâ—eÌ„ C. But now take in with this the other testimony of holy Scripture whereof I spake you haue it Heb. 7. ver 25. Christ is able to saue perfectly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all that come vnto God by him R. I see that is also a comfortable place C. So it is indeed for as the first makes you see that Christs meriting power is personall in himselfe not transfâ—rred to any other so this makes you see it is perfect hee hath done the worke of our saluation in his owne person and hee hath done it perfectly What more can you craue R. Truly I craue no more C. Away then with these rotten dregges of Papistrie that teach vs to depend vpon other merites vpon an other bloud as I shewed you the first day besides the merits of the bloud of Christ. R. For my own part I think neuer to leane to them but will rest vpon that onely perfect sacrifice of Christ offered on the Crosse for my sinnes C. If you abide there you are vpon the sure foundation and remember you must renounce all other sacrifices which derogate from the perfection sufficiency of that one sacrifice of Christ. R. I will indeed C. Then for your confirmation marke these places Christ in the end of the world hath appeared once to put away sinne by the sacrifâ—â—e of himselfe Heb. 9.26 Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many Heb. 9.28 Wee are sanctified by the offering of the body of Iesus Christ once Heb. 10.10 This man after he had offered one sacrifice for sinnes sits foreuer at the right hand of God Heb. 10.12 With one offering hath he â—onsecrated for euer them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 where remission of sinnes is there is no more offering for sin Heb. 10.18 Christ needed not daily as these high Priests to offer vp sacrifice first for his owne sinnes and then for the peoples for that did hee once when he offered vp himselfe Heb. 7.27 without shedding of blood is no remission Heb. 9.22 Perceiue you not