This Cope acknowledgeth in his Dialogues As for corrupting antient Authors and circumcising later I referre all that desire to be satisfied in this point to T. I. his Treatise of the corruptions c. as also to the Indices expurgatorij Quiroga and Sanctouall The flourishing Fencer Campian in his first reason termeth Protestants difficiles Aristarchâ—s 〈◊〉 arrepta virgula censoria si quae ad stomachum 〈◊〉 faciunt obliterant But doe not Papists more truly deserue to bee censured censorious Aristarchi For as Aristarchus vsed to raze out the verses of Homer which hee liked not so hee that hath but halfe an eie may see that the Romanists in their Indices expurgatorij blot out of all sorts of Authors whatsoeuer liketh them noâ— or any way makes against them But wee hope wee shall shortly haue a Vindex for their Index And therefore leauing the further prosecution of this point I will now set downe my last Assertion and generall conclusion Notwithstanding all the difficulties aboue-mentioned yet God hath not left his truth though too much opposed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bee without witness in all Ages as may appeare by the learned labors of diuers Protestants aboue mentioned out of whose large fields as also mine owne particular obseruations I haue gleaned a brief Catalogue which may suffice to poynt out a Protestant successiue Church from Age to Age. The beginning of the Catalogue For witnesses to the truth of the Doctrine wee now professe and maintaine in the Church of England I alledge IN the first Age from Christs birth to 100 yeeeres CHRIST IESVS The twelue Apostles Saint Iohn Baptist. Saint Mark Saint Luke Saint Paul with his schollers Titus Timothy and the Churches planted or watered by them Romanes Corinthians c. Clemens about the yeere 90. Ignatius about the yeere 100. with the Churches to whom he wrote The Tralians Magnesians Tarsians Philadelphians c. In the second Age from 100. to 200. Polycarpus 140. Iustin Martyr 150. Methodius 155. Dionysius Corinthiacus 158. Hegesippus 160. Melito Sardensis 170. Polycrates cum Synodo Asiaâ—â—ca 180 Saint Irenaeus 190. Clemens Alexandrinus 200. These Professors of the truth 〈◊〉 denying others I alledge for the two 〈◊〉 centuries further we proceeded not in 〈◊〉 Conference and therefore heere I 〈◊〉 a stop for a time and withall a challenâ—â— to M. Fisher to set downe the names 〈◊〉 his supposed Papists for these two 〈◊〉 Ages together with such poynts of 〈◊〉 Romish Religion as he will prooue 〈◊〉 they maintained which after hee haâ—â— done I will make good my witnesses anâ— disprooue his and then proceed to 〈◊〉 succeeding Ages euen vnto Luther if 〈◊〉 permit Hic rhodus hic saltus Hic modus haec nostro signabitur area currâ— A defence of Doctor FEATLY his proceedings in the Conference together with a refutation of Master FISHERS Answer vnder the name of A. C. to a Treatise intituled The Fisher caught in his owne Net AS Velleius Paterculus obserues that In the battell at Philippi in which Brutus should haue taken Anthony to task and Cassius Augustus it fell out cleane contrary so that Brutus met with Augustus and Anthony marched against Cassius So it came to passe in this present combate D. White prepared and prouided to encounter M. Fisher his former Antagonist and D. Featly was intreated as in Assistant to deale in a second place with M. Sweet if occasion were offered Yet vpon a cunning trick of the Iesuite discouered immediately before the Conference it was then on the place of the meeting resolued otherwise by some that were principally interessed in the businesse that D. Featly should beginne with M. Fisher and oppose him in the Iesuites question touching the visibility of the Protestants Church and D. White as there should bee cause should take off M. Sweet if he interposed as also answer in the contrary question propounded to the Iesuites touching the Visibility of the Romish Church in all Ages Thus D. Featly who intended to be but an Assistant contrary to his expectation was made the principall Opponent in this Disputation Wherin that hee might the better manage the truthes quarrell and satisfie his Auditory hee set before his eies certaine rules partly taken out of Scripture partly out of the antient Fathers to direct his proceedings by them The first rule is Saint Paul's Let nothing bee done through strife or vaine-glory God is not in the fire of contention nor in the whirle-winde of passion but in the still voice of them who in meeknesse of spirit seeke the truth out of loue of truth it selfe not of desire of victory Nolunt Scripturâ— ae docere nisi eos qui doceri quaerunt The Scriptures will not instruct those who seek not to bee instructed by them in this manner Democritus fitly compared truth to a iewell in the bottome of a Well if the water bee cleere we may easily discerne it but if troubled it is impossible to see the bottome of the Well much lesse discerne the most precious Iewel of truth lying in it For this cause D. Featly in the beginning of the disputation as is confessed by A. C. earnestly besought M. Fisher to deale sincerely as in the sight of God setting aside all passion and by-respects and when M. Sweet propounded that condition that all bitter speeches should be auoided D. Featly with the rest most willingly accepted of it and commended M. Sweet for proposing of it The second rule is Nazianzens 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 It is the best order in all speech and actions to begin and end with God According to which prescription D. Featly beganne with a short Prayer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and ended partly with a doxologie adding to his instance in Christ our Lord and Sauiour blessed for euer at whose Name all knees must bow both in heauen and earth and vnder the earth partly by an holy adjuration M. Fisher I charge you as you will answer before Christ at the day of Iudgement The third rule is Epiphanius his who obserueth in a Disputation against the Photinians quòd adhibiti sunt qui vtrinque exciperent ea quae dicebantur quae postea ab vtraque parte obsignabantur there were appointed Notaries who did take that which was said on both sides and their notes afterward were signed by both parties According to which obseruation M. Ailsbury was chosen and accepted of as Notary on both sides and D. Featly did set his hand to each Syllogisme as likewise did M. Fisher to his Answers and this schedule containing the substance of the arguments and Answers in the end of the Conference was sealed with three seales the Earle of Warwicks Master Boultons and Master Bugges The fourth rule is Tâ—rtâ—llians first to 〈◊〉 the ground and set vp as it were the goales by determining the state of the question Summam quaestionis saith he certis line is determinemus aduersus Marcionem L. 17. His
one thing and you proued another The question was of the visibilitie of Church but your arguments were of the eternity of faith Is not this thiug ad ChouÌ„ Ego respondeo de allijs tu disputas de cepis M. Fisher answered of Garlike you spake of Onions For this vnsauory exception M. Sweet was sauced in the conference where it was proued against him that to proue an effect by the cause is a direct naturall and not a diuersiue proofe My argument standeth thus The true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints hath had must and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof But the faith of the Protestant Church is the true Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints Therefore the Protestant faith hath had and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof The Maior is euident in Scripture and confessed on all hands The Minor I offered to proue but the Iesuites durst not stand to their deniall The Maior and Minor passing without controll none but Master Fisher would haue denied or distinguished vpon the conclusion This argument I affirme not onely direct to proue the conclusion denied but also most pertinent to the maine scope of the question which is to finde out the true Church whereof there can be no sound and infallible proofe but out of Scripture And for the visibility of the true Church either it is a matter of faith or not If not what need wee so much trouble our selues with it If it bee matter of faith Aliunde scilicet possunt suadere de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei can they otherwise perswade in matter of faith then out of the Writ of faith that is the holy Scripture For humane Stories and Records in al ages they are not easily found and when we haue found them we find them so defectiue so corrupted and defaced and oftentimes so contrary one to another that they scarce beget humane faith subiect to errour And were they neuer so perfect as Bellar. confesseth they could not beget diuine and infallible faith If no man can bee saued without knowledge that he is in the true Church and no man can knowe that he is in the true Church vnless hee can proue out of good Authours the perpetuall succession and visibility of the Church to which hee adhereth as Iesuites make their breake-neck climax or gradation what shall become of many millions of Christians in their owne Church who neither haue time nor meanes nor learning to search all Records of Antiquitie Could all Lay Papists produce Writers in all Ages who maintained the present Tridentine faith which none yet of the their learned Clerks euer did or could yet they are little neerer For Iewes and Paynims and it may bee diuers sorts of Hereticks can proue too many visible professors of their Heresies and impieties in all ages since Christ and his Apostles times and some before From visibility of Professors no man can certainely conclude truth of sauing Doctrine conformable to Scriptures but from conformity of Doctrine to the scriptures a man may by infallible consequence grounded vpon Gods promises to his Church conclude perpetuall visibility of professors more or lesse And therefore the course I tooke is not onely the streight but the easiest and onely certaine way to bring vs to the true Church which is the house of the liuing God the pillar and ground of truth Thus much for proofe of my proofe by syllogism I wil now giue you an account of my Catalogue and shew my inducements to my induction Against which I heare by you it is excepted that in vndertaking it I leaue the beaten way and take a way by my self where I shall surely lose my selfe neuer come to an end To this obiection the ciuil Law furnisheth me with an Answer Nemo tenetur diuinare No man is bound to prophecie before-hand especially of the successe of anothers labours If leaue be procured for a second Meeting the golden thread of succession which I tooke hold of from Christs blessed hand and his Apostles shall be drawne downe God willing to later Ages euen to Luthers time But what they meane by holding the beaten way I cannot easily diuine If they mean that I ought to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church by hauing recourse meerely to the corrupt Popish Church 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I say that way perhaps beaten by some yet seems to me a slipperie dirty way and I hope I shall bee able to shew that we need not aurum in stercore quaerere to seek the golden purity of faith amids the dung and drosse of Romish superstitions and deprauations in later ages Many of our Worthies haue shewne mee a more excellent way quos sequor à longe et vestigia pronus adoro These are Doctor Abbot now my Lord of Canterbury in his Answer to Hill Humfrey to Campion his third reason Doctor Vsher now Lord of Meth de successione Ecclesiae The History of the Waldenses Fox Acts and Monuments Crispin of the state of the church Morneys mystery of iniquity with Riuets defense thereof Simon Voious Catalogue of doctors Illiricus witnesses of the truth Wolsius his select readings Lydius his Waldensia and Mouster à Vortleys noble discourse As those that trauell by night through the Hercynian Forest when they are at a stand obserue certaine birds fleeing before them and by the brightnes of their white feathers shining in the dark guide their steppes and finde out a way so in vshering the Witnesses of Truth throughout all Ages when in the darker times mine owne obseruations shall faile mee I doubt not but by the bright wings of those auspicate birds that haue flowne before me I mean the light of their siluer quils who haue wrote of this Subject to finde out my way I haue omitted nothing that hath been materially excepted against the Conference except an omission of the sâ—ate of the question which they say is not so perspicuously and dilucidly deliuered as they could wish That which is set down to this purpose in the entry into the Conference they say is so brief that instar fulguris terret magis quà m illustrat it is like lightning which rather scares than lights the Passenger in his way If this were a iust exception yet it lyeth not against me who had the Opponents part put vpon me but against M. Fisher who be-spoke himselfe to be Respondent For by the orders of all Schools it is the Answerers and not the Opponents task to state the Question He that keeps a Fort in battel is to make his ramparts and guard the walls with redouts and out-works the assailants part is to lay well his batteries and make breaches where he can At the next desired meeting when D. White or my selfe should haue supplyed the Respondents place the Question should haue been explicated to the full by the distinctions conclusions heerin inclosed But as that Meeting by iniurious
loquuntur tum nihil aqué atque sauctorum maiest as biblioruÌ„ foedissimè violata 〈…〉 quid causa a fuit vt Euangelium Mathaei Acta resigerent Apostolica Desperatio c. Quid 〈◊〉 vt omnes Pauli repudiarent Epistolas Desperatiâ— I may adde following his tune Quid Piggiâ— Hosio Lyndano quid Stapletono Bellarmino c Whereas there are many things which proclaime our Aduersaries distrust of their cause so nothing so much as their profane violating of the Maiesty of holy Scripture What was the cause that the Manichees repeale the Gospell of Saint Mathew and the Acts of the Apostles Desperation What was the cause that the Ebionites reiected all the Epistles of Saint Paul Desperation I may goe on following the same note and tune and say What is the cause that Ludouicus cals the Scriptures Dead inke Desperation What is the cause that the Bishop of Poictiers stiles it in like maner rem inanimem et â—â—tam a thing without life and dumb Desperation What is the cause that Piggius Ecehius 〈◊〉 Pereonius Norris diuers others so much detract from the authority and sufficiency and obscure the excellencie of Scripture by terming it Nasum cereum Euangelium nigrum Theologiam atramentariam Lesbiam regulam a Nose of waxe a black Gospell inkie Diuinity a Lesbian rule Desperation They appeale from Scripture vnder pretence that it is an imperfect rule and dumbe Iudge and therefore refuse to be tryed by it in the points of difference betweene vs why because that if they should referre the ending of all Controuersies to Scripture and put themselues on Christ and his Apostles they soon knowe what would become of them and their cause The eightth Assertion The paucitie of right Beleeuers and obscurity and latencie of the true Church protesting against the corruption and idolatry in the later ages therof is most clearely foretold in Scripture First by our Sauiour When the Sonne of man commeth shall he finde faith on the earth Maldonat the Iesuite answereth Vix fideminueniet He shall scarce finde faith False Christs and false prophets shall arise and shall seduce many yea they shall do signes and wonders and seduce if it were possible the Elect. Secondly by Saint Paul the Spirit speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 exertè expresly that in the latter dayes some shall fall from the faith And in the second to the Thes. 1. There shall be a falling away first Thirdly by Saint Iohn After a thousand yeers Satan must bee loosed a little season And The taile of the Dragon drew the third part of the Starres of Heauen And All the world wondred after the Beast and they worshipped the Beast saying Who is like vnto the Beast c. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the Booke of Life c. All nations haue drunke of the wine of the wrath of her fornications c. And no maruell that the true seruants of God were reduced to such a paucity when the diuell and Antichrist set all their forces against them The Serpent casts out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that hee might cause hâ—r to be caried away of the flood I might alledge many pregnant testimonies both out of the antient Fathers the learned Papists also of later time for the blacke and gloomie darke and dismall dayes of the Church vnder the last and greatest persecution by Antichrist But Saint Austens testimony is so cleere for the obscurity and latency of the Church that I need adde no more Ecclesia est Sol Luna et Stellae quando Sol obscurabitur et Luna non dabit lucem suam et Stellae cadent de coelo Ecclesia non apparebit impijs vltra modum saeuientibus The Church is Sunne Moone and Starres when the Sunne shall be darkned and the Moone shall not giue her light and the Starres shall fall from heauen the Church shall not appeare the wicked raging against her without all measure Mee thinks I heare our aduersaries say What makes this obseruation for the Protestant Church or faith I answer Much euery way It furnisheth vs both with a strong defensiue weapon and offensiue also The defensiue may be thus framed That Church which hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number resembleth the true Church as the state thereof is described in her later Ages But the Protestant Church especially since the 1000 yeere after Christ hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number Therefore the Protestant Church in this respect resembleth the true Church and consequently her obscurity maketh rather for her then against her We may also on this Anuil shape an offensiue weapon in this manner The true Church in the later Ages thereof must be in great distresse and driuen to a narrow compasse The Popish Church hath not beene so Therefore the Popish Church is not the true Church For they make eminent Visibility and splendour a note of their Church If they answer that their Church vnder heathen and Arrian Emperors hath beene grieuously persecuted I reply First that those who suffered Martyrdome in those daies were rather our Martyrs then theirs because they sealed with their bloud the truth of scripture-Scripture-Doctrine and not of Popish traditions or additions Secondly those blessed Martyrs suffered in the first Ages of the Church long before the 1000 yeere in which Satan was let loose but wee speake of the persecutions of the true Church in her latter Ages Therefore when the Papists insultingly demand of vs Where appeared your Church in the Ages before Luther the best way to represse their insolency is to put a crosse interrogatorie to them Where did your Church lie hid When did it fly into the Wildernesse for the space of 1260 dayes When did the Beast with seuuen heads and tenne hornes push at it In the raigne of what Popes did the red Dragon cast a flood of waters to drowne her As for the predecessors of our faith and Standard-bearers of our Religion it appeareth vpon their owne records how the Whore of Babylon embrued her hands and died her garments scarlet-red in the blood of them persecuting and executing them vnder the names of Berengarians Lyonists Henricians Petrobrusians Albingenses Waldenses Wickleuists Thaborites Hussites Lutherans Caluinists and Hugonots and the like Heere see the craft of Satan and malice of Antichrist and his Ministers they wasâ—e the flock of Christ with bloudy slaughters and require of vs Where are those of our brethren whom they haue slaine They traduce vs for paucity whom they by their massacres haue brought to so small a number They vpbraid vs with those maymes and skarres which themselues haue giuen vs and put vs to produce those euidences which themselues haue burned and made away as shall appeare more at large hereafter The ninth Assertion
et fideli profana et perfidâ— facta est Ita quae Apostolis Ecclesiam docentibus erant inandita ea pòst à patribus caepere queri ambigi Quae priscis 〈◊〉 scrupulum mâ—hebaâ—â— ea probabilia visa sunt 〈◊〉 à receâ—ioribus Scholasticis et Canonistis habebanturâ—â—ra Quae illi opinati sunt et tennerunt â—odie 〈◊〉 defendunt pertinaciter et dissentientes 〈◊〉 First Heathenish and then Iewish rites and opinions stole in these were the seedes of ill examples and orders or customes these at the first beeing small were not obserued sometimes they were spied and checked Afterwards by degrees they more and more increased then were they confirmed and spred further till in the end the whole face of Religion was eaten out as it were with a Canker and the Church of Rome 〈◊〉 and faithfull spouse became a profane and disloyall strumpet So those things which in the Apostles time were vnheard of after beganne to bee questioned and doubted by the Fathers Those things which the anâ—ient Doctors made scruple of seemed probable to some and were held true by the later School-men Canonists Those things which they held but as opinions the Papists at this day defend obstinately and condemne all that dissent from them Iust as Velleius Paterculus reports of the Romane State that degenerating from the antient vertue and glory it fell maturè à rectis in vitia à vitijs in prana prâ—uis in praecipitia from good to bad from bad to worse from worse to worst of all so the Roman Church in tract of time fell from certain truths to doubtfull Tenets from doubtfull Tenets 〈◊〉 manifest errors from manifest errors at last to heresies where we now finde them and there leaue them because they are resolued there to stick The generall Conclusion The Protestant Church according to the distinctions and Assertions premised hath beene in all Ages in some degree visible Thus much of the first Question propounded by the Iesuite touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages The second Question touching the Catalogue of names follows Touching the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages The second Question WHether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages out of good Authors To this Question I answer as to the former by Distinctions Assertions The first Distinction Visible Protestants are either Such as subscribe to the harmony of Protestant Confessions in each point of faith and Theologicall Conclusion Or such as haue deliuered either implicitly or explicitly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 positiuely or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of opposition some point or points of Protestant Doctrine especially if it cannot be proued that they held any doctrine de fide repugnant to the Protestants faith or different from them in any point of moment or very materiall much lesse fundamentall In this Question neither is it reasonable neither indeed doth the Iesuite demand that wee should prooue visible Protestants in all Ages in the first sense but in the later onely His words are For auoiding of all mis-taking and consequently needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes M. Fisher in his Question requireth first that names of men in all Ages be set down whom Sir Humphrey Linde and his friends conceiue to haue been Protestants Secondly that those men whose names they set downe bee shewed out of good Authors to agree in houlding some points of faith in which Protestants differ from Roman Catholiques Thirdly that Sir Humphrey Linde or his friends will defend against M. Fisher that the same men held no other points of faith different one from another and from the present Protestant Doctrine The second Distinction The Names of Protestants are of two sorts Proper as Bertram Lollard Dulcinus Caluin Beza Iewell c. Appellatiue as Protestants Gospellers Reformers Albingenses Waldenses Lionists Piccards Turlepins and generally all such names as haue either been assumed by any society of Protestants to distinguish themselues from others or cast vpon them by way of reproach by their Aduersaries whose reproaches they and wee accounted their glory In this Question although the Iesuite seemeth to take Names in the first sense yet he cannot be so grossely ignorant as not to knowe that it is aboundantly sufficient for the proof of a visible Church euen à posteriori to proue out of good Authors the appellatiue Names of Protestants in all Ages No man doubteth that it is a sufficient Argument to prooue the Visibility of the true Church in Israel in Elias time to produce that sacred Record of seuen thousand that neuer bowed their knees to Baal albeit neither doth the Spirit of God there set down neither can any man liuing now tell what was the proper name of any one of them No Geographer will euer make question but that there are now many visible Churches of Christians in Africa and diuerse parts of Asia vnder the Turk and Tartar knowne by the names of Abyssens Maronits Cophti Armenians Georgians or the like and yet neither can the Geographers themselues peraduenture nor you nor I presently giue the proper name of any one of them For my part I know but one Greek Christian sometime Student in Oxford Metrophanes Critopulus The third Distinction These words Protestants are to be named may admit of a double construction Either that names ought to be produced and that we are bound to produce them to proue the Visibility of our Church as if without such producing the protestant cause shold any way suffer or receiue any prejudice Or that such names may bee produced and that there are such Records yet extant out of which wee are able to makes a Catalogue of Protestant professors In this question the Iesuite holdeth that the names of Protestants in the first sense are to bee produced that is ought to bee produced and must of necessitie to proue the visibility of our Church but hee denieth it in the second sense that is that such names can bee produced On the contrary my Tenets are that Visible Protestants are to bee named in the second sense that is are â—minable but not in the first sense Though wee need not make any such Catalogue yet ex superabundanti I refuse not to doe it our cause is so richly furnished that wee can do it though wee are not bound to do it for the reasons partly alledged in the conference partly confirmed and enlarged in the defence thereof The fourth Distnction Good Authors are of two sorts Of the first rank and such are Classicke Theological or Historical Authors against which neither Papists nor Protestants much except but both account them of great worth and credit Of the second ranke and such are those Authors who though they are not of any singular or eminent note yet they may bee tearmed good according to the ages in which they liued which afforded no better In this question I restrain not good Authors to those of the first rank only but admit also of those
of the second For as when the people at Capua were so incensed against the Senatours that they had a purpose presently to doffe them out of their places and liues too a wise man among them aduised them before they put the ould Senatours to the sword to thinke of fitter men to put in their places which when they could not agree vpon in the end it was resolued that the ould should continue In like manner if the Iesuites except against any of the Authors which I shall alledge in the later blinde ages as being not of sufficient credit for vs to relie vpon in so weightie a controuersie as the Iesuites make this to bee I require of the Iesuites to produce fitter men better Authors who liued in those times in case they cannot then to let those stand for good whom wee alledge for our selues for wee are to take Authors and Records such as we can finde not to make such as wee wish And therefore Scaliger as truly as tartly reproueth Baronius quod Annales faceret non scriberet that he wrote not Annales but made them out of his owne braine A true Record though neuer so foule-written and torne is better then a forged Deed though neuer so faire and legible Some later Papists excepting against diuers Authors alledged by vs shall not disable those Authors vnlesse they can make good their exceptions against them For example though Genebrard or Coccius or 〈…〉 disgracefully of Abbas Vâ—spergensis or 〈…〉 Câ—rdinalis or Platina or Auentinus yet vnless they can or could iustly tax or charge them they must and shall stand for good witnesses against Papists These cautions and distinctions premised I will now set downe the state of this second question in the Assertions following The first Assertion AMong the Professors of the Truth there may be differences of iudgement not onely touching rites and ceremonies and matters of discipline but also touching points of doctrine so the points be not main and fundamentall or such as are cleerly â—nd expressely defined by the Church out of manifest Teâ—ts of Scripture This conclusion I ground on those words of Saint Paul If any man build on this Foundation gold c. or hay and stubble c. if any mans work shall be burnt he shall suffer losse but hee himself shall be saued c. To this distinction of Foundations-doctrine without which a man cannot be saued and doctrines built vpon the Foundation which may be held or not held without danger of saluation Saint Ambrose alludes If there be any Church which refuseth faith and â—eepeth not the foundation of Apostolicall doctrine lest it should cast any spot on vs it must bee forsaken And Saint Prosper where hee insinuates a distinction of heresies Some like the Pelagian poisoning the bowels and surprising the very vitals of Christs mysticall Body others affecting and infecting other parts further from the heart and therefore not so dangerous Vincentius Lyrinensis glanceth at the former distinction of doctrines fundamentall and not fundamentall The former he calleth Fidei regulaâ—â— the rule of faith the later Diuinae Legis quaestiunculas subtill questions concerning the Law of God in which he saith we need not much seek the Fathers consent Saint Austen also when he was pressed by Iulian the Pelagian with a testimony out of Saint Chrysostome laieth hold on the buckler of a like distinction Sanctus inquit Constantinopolitanusnegat esse in paruulis originale peccatum Holy saith he Iohn of Constantinople denieth that originall sinne is in little children Absit vt Constantinopolitanus Iohannes de baptismate parvulorum eorumque à chirographo liberatione per Christum tot ac tantis co-Episcopis suis maximeque Romano Innocentio Carthaginensi Cypriano Cappadoci Basilio Gregorio Nazianzeno Gallo Hilario Mediolanensi resistat Ambrosio Alia sunt in quibus inter se aliquando etiam doctissimi atque optimi regulae catholicae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant alius aliò vna de re meliùs aliquid dicit veriùs Hoc autem de quo nunc agimus ad ipsa fidei pertinet fundamenta GOD forbid that Iohn of Constantinople concerning the baptism of little or yong children and their freedom by Christ from the hand-writing should gain-stand so many and so worthy of his fellow-Bishops especially Innocent Bishop of Rome Cyprian of Carthage Basil of Cappadocia Gregorie of Nazianzen Hilarie of France and Ambrose of Millain Some things there are in which the most learned and best defenders of the catholique rule the bond of faith preserued do somtimes not agree among themselues and one in some one thing saith somewhat better and righter than another But this wherein now we deal belongeth to the very grounds of faith Vnlesse we admit of such a distinction neither we nor the Romane Church nor the Greek nor any Church now in Christendome is able to produce a Catalogue of visible Professors of their faith in any antient Age much lesse in all Ages And therefore if M. Fisher and his fellow-Iesuites require of a true Church a Catalogue of such Professors as in all Ages held not onely the same fundamentall and principall points of faith but also all the same doctrinall conclusions and particular deductions I must aduise him in the words of Constantine the Great spoken to Nouatus to make a ladder and go vp to heauen alone As the Fathers differ from vs in some things so also they differ among themselues yet as they esteemed themselues notwithstanding these differences to be members of the same Catholick Church so doo we esteem the said Fathers professors of our Protestant Doctrine Our Aduersaries lay claim to them also and yet they cannot deny but that the Fathers dissent from them in some points of no small moment Papias the scholar of Saint Iohn the Euangelist did eat the sowre grape of the Millenarie Error and Iustin Martyr Iraeneus Lactantius and the Fathers generally before Saint Ierome's time had their teeth set on edge therewith Scaliger well seen in Antiquity obserues Omnes veteres Christianos etiam infra aetatem Augustini putâsse animas tam piorum quà m impiorum in centro terrae tanquam quodam conceptaculo expectare diem iudicij quod Tertullianus eleganer dixit In candidâ expectare diem iudicij Praerogatiuam tamen dant Martyribus quos vno saltu recta in Paradisum deferri volunt All the antient Christians yea euen before the time of Saint Augustine thought the soules aswell of the godly as vngodly in the centre of the earth as it were in some receptacle to expect the day of iudgement which Tertullian elegantly calls In candidâ to look for the day of iudgement Yet they yeeld a prerogatiue to the Martyrs whom they will haue to bee carried directly into Paradise at one leap or jump Dooth your Church approoue of this opinion Saint Cyprian findeth great fault with those who before his time administred the
discouered the abomination and filthinesse of the Whore of Babylon and begin to hate her and make her desolate and wee doubt not but in time other Princes and States will ioyne with them and perfectly accomplish this Prophesie by stripping her naked and eating her flesh and burning her with fire Now to sharpen my weapons a little vpon M. Fisher's Whetstone Confingant tale quid Haeretici confingant tale quid Papistae Let the Papists feine some such like thing let them deuise if they can any Protestant Church or any other society or person in the world in which the marks of Antichrist aboue-described are so conspicuously to bee seen as in the Romish Synagogue and the Head thereof and then I will confesse I haue spilt all my paines in deciphering these characters but till they haue brought some man State Society or Church in the world in whom the former marks are more visible than they are at this day in the Romish Church and her Head I shall bee euer of the opinion of that learned Iudge and States-man who said pleasantly that If the Pope of Rome were not Antichrist he had very ill luck for if there should be a proclamation or warrant to send for a man described by such marks as Antichrist is in the Apocalypse without all question the Pursuiuant would attache and bring the Pope of Rome The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eightth touching the demonstration of the Visibility of the Church by the eternity and immutability of faith Doctor Featly That Church whose faith is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged is so visible as the catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Ergo the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the names can be shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot bee shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to bee I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the conclusion in the same manner Doctor Featly What Answer you to the conclusion also This is a straine of new Logicke Master FISHER'S Answer This Argument as it is set downe is so far from being a demonstration whose propertie is To conuince the vnderstanding as it is not a probable or morall perswasion for I am verily perswaded that no wise man not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions will or can bee so much as morally conuinced or in any sort probably perswaded by it that Protestants bee the true visible Church more then a man in case of doubt can be by the like Argument which a man may make to proue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in all the parish thus Those who are in heart true honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish But I and my brethren are in heart true honest men Ergo. As this proofe is not able to make any man not partially affected to beleeue these men to be well spoken of or to bee honest-men so neither can Doctor Featlies proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to bee the true visible Church or to haue the true faith Secondly if the terme That Church bee vnderstood onely of a particular Church as for example the Church of England it is so farre from a Logicall demonstration as it hath not in it any Logicall Forme according to any of the vsual moods Barbara Caelarent c. But if it bee vnderstood vniuersally of euerie Church that is or may bee then both Maior and Minor are false and so it cannot bee a demonstration whose propertie is To consist of most certainly true propositions The Maior in this latter sense is false for that there may be a Church or companie who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels who for want of visible profession are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be The Minor is false also for the Protestant Church hath not the true primitiue faith neither is that faith they haue vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hould this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hould next yeere I doe not knowe Which is true in regard they haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change But if Doctor Featly shall say that hee neither meant the tearme That Church in either of the aforesaid senses but meant to signifie by it That one holy Catholique and Apostolique Church which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpetually visible then indeed the Maior is true but the Minor is most false and so the argument is farre from being a demonstration especially when it endeuoureth to proue magis notum per ignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hard to be knowne especially by onely Scripture Of the sense whereof according to Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure for if the whole Church or companie to whom Christ promised the Spirit of truth to teach them all truth may erre then much more may euerie particular man erre and consequently no particular man can bee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture Thirdly this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question for in asking which is the true visible Church or congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith in regard the true Church cannot be without this true faith yea therefore doe wee ask which is the true Church that of it being first knowne by other marks wee may learne what is the true faith in all points in which wee yet knowe not what is to bee held for true diuine faith Fourthly although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to bee a member of the visible Church Let D. Featly looke back vpon his Argument and tell vs what Academicall learning taught him to call it A demonstration à priori Doctor FEATLY's Reply I know diuers learned men haue beene of the opinion that Aristotles Demonstrator doth dwell vnder the same roofe with Tullies Orator and Xenophons
to bee reiected vpon any pretence Not long after it was not authenticall For Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places Now goe and vpbrayd vs with our late reuised translation but see withall that you dispence with the Pope that he may dispence with you One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church another yeere it is impugned Lastly in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie among you that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques in the next yeere wee reade that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent arrogant profane Antichristian Luciferian in Saint Gregories time but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar Yea but say you The Protestants haue no certaine and infallible rule sufficient to preserue them from change Belike then the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule but vnwritten traditions are the Word of God is no sure ground the Popes Decree is The Apostle then hath much deceyued vs who saith Let God bee true and euerie man a lyer If euerie man a lyer euerie Pope too 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 homo not vir onely to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability You adde to piece out your former argument that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius viz. the visibilitie which is easily knowne by the truth of Doctrine which is more hardly knowne especially by onely Scripture of the sense whereof according to the Protestants who say The whole Church may erre no particular man can bee infallibly sure The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance whereunto I adde First that visibilitie is more knowne to sense then the truth of doctrine but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense but not the perpetuall former and future visibility of any one Church much lesse of the vniuersall And therefore it is much easier out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture together with the three Creeds knowne to the simplest among vs where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages Yea but no man say you can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture because Protestants hold The whole Church may erre In thus arguing you bewray either ignorance or an ill conscience Ignorance if you knowe not that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church and the Church representatiue of poynts necessarie to saluation and not necessarie of euident Texts of Scripture of obscure But if you knew these distinctions as indeed you cannot but knowe them hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers you dispute against your conscience Because in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture the Church may erre will it therefore follow that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts In which if wee may beleeue Saint Austin all those things are found which concerne faith and manners Will it follow because wee hold that your Church representatiue that is the Pope and his Consistorie or the Pope and his Councell may erre that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ consisting of all the visible Christians in the world in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture may erre The Church following her guide the Word of God is sure not to erre whether vniuersall or particular For which preseruation from errour we doubt not but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels then nationall yet in both it sometimes falleth out that as Austen obserueth Priora à posterioribus emendentur the former are corrected by the later Thirdly you beg an Argument from your selfe drawne from a beggerly fallacy called Petitio principij or begging your maine question You say that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij and therefore no demonstration but I prooued it then and since confirmed it that it was a Demonstration and therefore no petitio principij Let the Reader heere obserue how your Answers and Obiections interfere and supplant one the other Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus but you a petitio principij Againe elsewhere you call this Argument A digression from the question a diuersiue proofe and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall Wherefore as Xenophanes opposed a motion made by Eleates in behalfe of Leucothea to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse this motion sayth hee ouerthroweth it selfe If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse we must not bewaile her death and if we bewaile her death as being a mortal woman wee must not sacrifice to her as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers may obiect against them If the Argument aboue-named was a petitio principij it could not be a transitio à genere in genus and if it were a transitio à genere in genus it could not be a petitio principij If it were a diuersiue proofe it could not bee identicall if it bee identicall as you here affirme it cannot be diuersiue for it implyes an apparant contradiction to say that a man in proouing idem per idem doth digredi ab eodem But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question For say you in asking which is the true visible Church or Congregation of the true faithfull wee aske at least vertually which is the true faith By the like reason you might proue euery Demonstration à priori to bee a petitio principij For in propounding any question touching the effect wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause And therefore Aristotle in lib. 2. Poster Analyt acutely prooueth omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij that euerie scientificall question is in effect a question of the medium or the cause By the like Argument you might prooue that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum are petitiones principij because in propounding any question touching the definitum wee at least vertually inquire of the definition If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij when as it is certaine they are distinct really as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument to which now I addresse my selfe Fourthly you impeach my Demonstration by pushing againe at the Maior saying Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church yet inward faith alone without
sweating vnder the Presse Admit there had beene no ordinary calling of right-beleeuing Church-men Bishops or Priests when Luther did first sound his siluer Trumpet what will you inferre thereupon that at that time there was no visible Church There Beza leaues you who professeth both a visible Church in generall consisting of members sound and vnsound and these more or lesse and in particular hee calleth the Waldenses The seed of the most pure antient Christian Church which was miraculously preserued in the midst of the darknes and errors which haue beene hatched by Satan in these latter times And as Beza leaues you in this your inference so also doth the Truth For although the Ship of Christ is in great danger when erronious Pastors like false lights are set vp in the Watch-Towers of Sion yet sith our chiefe Pilot hath forewarned vs heereof and bid vs take heede of false prophets and teachers and hath left vs a most certaine direction in his Word which is the true Light 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 conduct vs to those pulchri portus the faire Hauens in Heauen the people of God may keepe the right way and through Gods grace escape the quick-sands of heresie As God bestoweth diuers gifts of the Spirit ordinarily vpon the Clergie so he bestoweth also where he pleaseth Spiritum discretionis in the Laytie a Spirit whereby they may discerne spirits whether they are of God or no a Spirit by which trying all things they may hold fast that is good And if their ghostly Fathers offer them a stone for bread or a Serpent for fish they will cast it away Or if more cunningly they shall mingle error and heresie with truth and offer them as your Teachers did and doe an apple with a worme in it or a cup of wine with a dead Fly they will take out the worm and Fly and then eat of the one and drink of the other This is that which Lydius truly obserueth Oft-times the eares of the Auditors are purer then the tongue of the Preacher Hee deliuers vngarbled spices they garble it vnsifted meale they sift and boult it impure milke they straine it In the daies of Ieremy and much more after the death of the Prophet Malachy vntill the birth of Christ there were few Doctors in Israel that rightly expounded the Law and taught Gods people as they ought yet no man doubts that God had then a visible Church as also afterwards in the time of the Arrian Eutychian persecution in which there were very few Bishops or Pastors vntainted with those heresies Therefore although we should grant you your antecedent out of Beza that there was no ordinary vocation at that time of pure and sincere Teachers yet wee will barre you of your conclusion that at that time there was no visible Church Our English Diuines alledged by you affirme no such thing Perkins saith not that our Church was simply inuisible but that it was not visible to the world adding in the same place that it lay hid vnder the chaffe of Popery And the truth of this saith hee the Records of all Ages manifest The same Perkins in his Reformed Catholick more fully explaineth his meaning thus Though Popery raigned and ouerspred the face of the earth for many hundred yeeres yet in the middest thereof God reserued a people to himselfe that truly worshipped him The woman fled into the wildernesse c. And she still retaines a remnant of her seed which keepe the commandement of God and haue the testimony of Iesus Christ. See here how farre hee is from denying a Protestant Church extantâ— that he affirmeth it to haue growne vp and thriued euen in the Thicket of Popery though much ouer-shadowed and ouer-topped Neither can you finde any flaw or cloud in that orient Geâ—â—â—â— of our Church Bishop Iewell whose words are these When in the middest of the darknesse of that Age first beganne to spring and shine some glimmering beame of truth vnknowne at that time and 〈◊〉 of When also Martin Luther and Hâ—lderick Zuinglius beeing most excellent men euen seek from God to giue light to the whole world first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell c. A Diamond cannot bee cut or polished but by a Diamond Let therefore this Iewell brighten and cleere himselfe In the same part of the Apologie Chap. 5. Diuis 1. hee calleth Martin Luther the publisher and setter forward of this doctrine not the Author And Chap. 14. Diuis 1. he fully cleeres the point in difference betweene vs touching visible Protestants before Luther Many 〈◊〉 many learned and godly men haue often and carefully complained how all these things haue cleered 〈◊〉 time For euen in the middest of that 〈◊〉 darknesse God would yet there should bee some who though they gaue not a cleere bright light yet should kindle were it but some sparks which men being in darknesse might espie And hee particularly 〈…〉 Hillary Gregory Bernard Pauperes de Lugdâ—â—◠〈◊〉 Bishops of Greece and Asia as also 〈…〉 Petrach Sauanarolla and others And Chapter 15. he preuenteth a câ—uill that might haue bin made against these witnesses of the truth by some ignorant persons Neither saith hee can any man alleage that these Authors were Luthers or Zuinglius Schollers for they liued not only certaine yeeres but also certaine Ages â—re euer Luther or Zuinglius names were heard of Now I pray see M. Fisher what a goodly dish of fish you haue serued in to furnish your Table and let the indifferent Reader iudge whether you may safely trust M. Brerâ—ly or wee you in allegations especially out of Protestant Writers whose words either you corrupt or adulterate their meaning or both as euidently appeares in all the places aboue-cited And thus haue I now at length spung'd out all the spots which your pen hath cast on the Conference As for personall aspersions vpon mee especialy of want of grauity and patience I hold it fittest to refell these and the like slanders by silent and patient enduring them As you heerein take Petilian the Donatist for your precedent of impudent railing so I will take Saint Austen for my patterne of silent patience and cloze vp all further Answer in his words Quid mirum si cùm grana de areâ Domini excussa simul paleam intror sum trabo iniuriam resilientis pulueris suffero What maruell if in sweeping the Lords floore and seeking to gather-in graines that are flowne out I endure a little dust Homo sum enim de areâ Christi palea si malus granum si bonus non est hâ—ius area vâ—niâ—labrum lingus Petiliani I am a man and I know I am of Christs floore that is in his true visible Church all the Papists in the world shall neuer disprooue it If I am euill I am chaffe if good I am wheat and whether I bee the one or the other this is my comfort I am sure the
faith of the Protestant Church is eternall perpetuall and vnchanged Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged so as the Names can bee shewed is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged yet so as the Names cannot be shewed in all Ages is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I deny it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the Conclusion in the same manner D. Featly What Answer you to the Conclusion also This is a Strain of new Logick M. Fisher. Tolle distinctionem D. Featly A strange distinction of the etemity of faith by Professers to be named and not to bee named What are Professers nominable or innominable to the eternity of faith M. Fisher. Conclude that which I deny that the Protestant Church is so eternall as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may be shewed D. Featly That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which no man can be saued is so perpetuall visible as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therefore the faith of the Protestant Church is so perpetuall and visible as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this Proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to be shewed before the truth of doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speak you of those who are not able by their owne abilities to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirm the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heer M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should be made when it came to their turn to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. D. Featly The Summe of your former Answer was that the Minor of my former Syllogisme was both false and impertinent It is neither false nor impertinent Therefore your Answer is false and impertinent And first my Minor is not false M. Fisher. I answer to the Antecedent that it is both false and impertinent but I adde that for the present it must first be prooued to be pertinent or else it diuerteth vs from the chief end of our Dispute which was as I said before that infallible truth may bee learned of the true visible Church and not the true visible Church by first finding euery particular infallible truth and by that to conclude which is the true visible Church D. Featly I proue that the Minor is pertinent That Minor Proposition which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the Conclusion of the Minor last denied is pertinent to the probation of that Minor denied But the Minor Proposition of the third Syllogisme doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor last denied Therefore the Minor of that Syllogism is pertinent Note that M. Fishers Answers to euery one of these Syllogismes were penned by him verbatim with the aduice of M. Sweet and one other suggesting priuately and amending what they thought fit Which breeding much delay irkesom to the hearers and the Opponent then saying You are very long M. Fisher M. Chamberlane standing by said Let him alone for he and his learned Councell are not yet agreed M Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Minor proposition which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor in such manner as it may serue for the purpose to which the whole Dispute is ordained I grant it to be pertinent But if it doe inferre the conclusion yet not in such manner as it may serue for that purpose for which the whole Dispute was ordained I deny the Maior Heere the Disputants iarred and so the Writer ceased yet that which followeth was then deliuered by them D. Featly That Minor which together with the Maior inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing beene per direct a media is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained But this Minor together with the Maior directly and necessarily inferres the proposition last denied the whole processe hauing beene per directa media Therefore it is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained M. Fisher. Your Media in your Syllogismes were directa but they tended not ad directum finem D. Featly This is a Bull. M. Fisher. Media directa yet not addirectum finem that is direct and not direct for Media are said to be directa only ratione finis in regard of the end M. Sweet Is there not a fault in arguing called transitio à genere in genus When a man by arguing quite leaues the maine question and subiect D. Featly I acknowledge that transitio à genere in genus is a fault in disputing but I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause was transitio a genere in genus such was my argument For faith in a right beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof which makes a visible member and the like profession of many members a visible Church Where the cause is perpetuall the effect must needs bee perpetuall Therefore where the faith is perpetuall the profession thereof must needs be and consequently the Visibility of the professors thereof Is this transitio à genere in genus D. Good M. Sweet you once learned better Logick in Cambridge then you shew now Heere againe those of M. Fishers side calling for names Where are your names D. White sayd D. White This is nothing but an apparant tergiuersation you will not answer any argument directly nor suffer vs to proceed in our argument and therefore I require you M. Fisher according to the order mentioned in the beginning for each party to haue an houre and a
renounce all the particular errors of the present Romish church at this day for such Protestants could not bee much before Luther The particular diseases must in nature bee presupposed before a particular remedy can bee applyed vnto them Reformation necessarily presupposeth a disorder and deformation Neither doe wee restraine the name Protestants to such only as in particular set themselues directly and professedly against some speciall error of Popery as of Transubstantiation Purgatory Indulgences c. for such professed opposing could not bee imagined before such errors were in beeing But as the Fathers before the Councell of Nice did not in words define 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or that the Son was of the same substance with the Father and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 onely that is of a like substance nor professedly wrote against the Heresie of Arius by name yet are they rightly esteemed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 indeed or maintainers of the right beliefe touching the consubstantiality of the Sonne to the Father because out of their Sentences and Writings this truth may be deduced howsoeuer it be not formally expressed in the tearme of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 So all those are to bee esteemed Protestants who holding nothing against the protestant faith deliuer some doctrines and positions from which some error of Popery or other may bee cleerly refuted whether such error were then maintained by any in the Church of God or no. Of the tearme Visible A Church may be said to be visible two manner of waies either Visible to the whole world and that eminently and in some sort pompously as the Roman Empire kingdom of Naples or respublica Venetorum in which sense the Papists affirm that the true Church ought alwaies to bee visible but wee denie it Or visible to all the members of that Church either such as God hath already called or such as he will call in time who by searching and due inquirie may and shall finde out the true Church their mother In this question we vndertake not to prooue a Protestant Church visible in all Ages in the first acception but in the later onely wee maintaine a visible but not a conspicuous eminent and glorious face of a Church in all Ages consisting of an apparant Hierarchy as the Papists teach I shall not need to adde more distinctions for the explication of this first question I come therefore briefly to the particular assertions seruing for the confirmation and illustration of the generall and mayne conclusion touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church The first assertion The Church in the most strict and proper acception thereof is the whole company of Gods elect Thus S. Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrewes describeth her The generall assembly and Church of the first borne which are written in heauen And Saint Gregory vpon Ezechiel There is one Church of the elect both going before and following after And againe vpon the Canticles Christ according to the grace of his foreknowledge hath built a holy Church of Saints which shall eternally perseuer in grace And Saint Bernard This is the Church of the Elect. Of this Church Saint Austen speaketh most expresly He shall neuer be withdrawne from that Church which is predestinated and chosen before the foundations of the world yet poore Iohn Hus as H. C. a zealous Papist rightly obserueth was burnt by the decree of the Councell of Constance for saying no more in this point then Saint Paul and Saint Gregory said before him viz. Catholica Ecclesia est omnium praedestinatorum duntaxat The Catholique Church consists of all those that are predestinate and of them onely But the best is as our Humfrey speaketh pertinently Combustus est non confutatus Hussius Iohn Hus was indeed burned but hee was neuer confuted His doctrine is written with a poynt of a Diamond neuer to bee razed out for it is Gods truth The foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale The Lord knoweth them that are his And so I fall into my second assertion The second assertion The Church in this acception as it consisteth of the elect onely is knowne to God onely and consequently is inuisible This the Apostle teacheth The Lord knoweth them that are his And the Spirit intimateth as much in these words I will giue him a white stone and in it a new name written which no man knoweth sauing hee that receiueth it For what man knoweth the things of a man saue the spirit of man which is in him The heart of man is deceitfull aboue all things who can knowe it I the Lord search the heart I try the reines This soueraigne priuiledge of Almighty God to sound the bottome of mans heart the faithfull acknowledge in their deuâ—utest prayers as Salomon Thou euen thou onely knowest the hearts of all the children of men And Ieremie Thou that triest the Righteous and seest the reines and the heart And the eleuen Apostles Thou Lord which knowest the harts of all men Now if God onely knowe the heart he onely knowes who beleeue in him and loue him in sincerity of heart Therefore let none saith Saint Cyprian arrogate that which the Father hath giuen to the Sonne onely to weet in the floore of the Church to take the fanne and seuer the chaffe from the wheat The elect are the first borne whose names are written in heauen Heb. 12. 23. Now what earthly man will take vpon him to reade that which is written in heauen Saint Prosper forbeares it defining that God is hee who defineth the certaine number of those who are predestinated to eternall life Whence we may rightly conclude that the Pope in canonizing Saints and entering them into the heauenly Hierusalem incurres into a praâ—unire by encroching on the prerogatiue of Almighty God who reserueth to himselfe alone the discerning of vessels of honour from vessels of dishonour that is the elect from the reprobate But our aduersaries obiect If wee restraine the Church to the elect and pronounce them inuisible we make a Platonicall Idea or an aerâ—all body or mathematicall abstract of the Church Heereunto we answer first out of Saint Prosper Certum apud Deum esse numerum electorum tam impium est negare quà am ipsi gratiae contraire It is as impious to deny that the number of the elect is certaine with God as to deny grace it selfe And will any dare to call that a fansie or an imaginary Idea which is most certaine in the knowledge of God Secondly we teach not that the Church in this notion is an Idea extra rem or singularia or a body houering in the aire or floting in the fansie we teach that it truly subsisteth partly in heauen in the triumphant and partly on earth in the militant part therof This militant part though in respect of the whol number inward
Sacrament without wine vsing water in stead of it If any of our Ancestors either ignorantly or simply hath not obserued and kept that which our Lord hath taught vs c. through our Lords indulgency pardon may bee granted to his simplicity This he proueth to be a grosse error and a foule abuse yet he excludeth not them who are tainted with this spot from hope of saluation And Saint Cyprian himself had reason to censure charitably an errour in others because himself needed at least a pardon of course for his opinion touching re-baptizing for his zeal against Hereticks transported him so farre that he rejected and disannulled Baptisme administred by them whereby he may seem to touch dangerously vpon the rock of the Donatists heresie yet Saint Austen doubteth not to affirm that he made a recompence for this his errour by the aboundance of his charity in his life and plentifull effusion of his bloud for the testimony of Christ at his death As it was said of Augustus Pompeij statuas erigendo suas confirmauit that by erecting Pompey's statues hee made his owne stand the longer so we may truely say that Saint Austen by framing the former Apology for Cyprian made the easier way in the mindes of all indifferently-affected for his owne defence I would that this most judicious Doctor of the Church for whom all the Christian Churches striue as the Greek Cities for Homer nihil quicquam humani pateretur But I haue learned from Vincentius Nuditatem reuerendi patris nèque meis temerare oculis neque alienis patere velle sed auersum tegere quod est erratum sancti viri nec approbâsse nec prodidisse All that I haue already intimated rather than expressed in this kinde is to shew that euery prick is not a wound euery spot not a sâ—ain in an ancient Writer that euery difference in judgement makes not a rent in the Church and consequently that although Waldo or Wicklef or Husse or any other fore-runner of Luther's reformation in our daies might haue some priuate differences between themselues and from vs as the ancient Doctors had yet that these discords hinder not but that they and wee may beare a part in some concent and harmony of belief on earth and sing the same Halleluiah in heauen As for those foule aspersions of Sorcery Manichisme maintenance of impurity and subiecting God to the diuell and the like laid vpon the Waldenses and Albingenses Wicklef and the Hussiâ—es or any of them we shall easily blowe them away euen by the breath of our Aduersaries in the declaration of the next conclusion The second Assertion The Professors of the truth haue had alwaies false scandals laid vpon their faith and life Our blessed Redeemers most holy Doctrine and sanctified life escaped not the slanders of malicious tongues set on fire of hell Saint Stephen was traduced for blasphemie against God and Moses Saint Paul for Heresie I tremble to rehearse what malice hath broached against the Saints and Martyrs in the Primitiue Church as that they worshipped an Asse head et antistituÌ„ suoruÌ„ genitalia that they murthered Infants and sed vpon their flesh and licked their bloud that putting out the lights they committed incest and all manner of filthinesse one with another Let Rubius and Parsons and Sanderâ—â— and Coccius and Cocleus and Bâ—lsack rid the bottom of their rancorous stomack against Walde Wiclef and Hus and Luther and Caluin they cannot voyd worse matter of fiction then such as the Heathen vented against the Primitiue Christians But as God in former times vsed the tongue of Pliny and diuers other Gentiles to licke out those blots which were cast on the Christians by Gentiles so in these later times also hath God made the tongues of Papists themselues to serue as spunges to wipe away Popish aspersions vpon the aboue-named Professors of truth For the 9. Articles obiected in particular to the Waldenses by Antoninus Prateolus Lutzenburgius Parson Doctor Vsher now Lord Bishop of Methe hath so cleared them euen by the testimonies of Papists from those erronious assertions and scandalous aspersions that the Papists themselues seeme to be ashamed of their shameless slanderâ— It shall suffice for the strengthning of my former conclusion to call in three or foure Papists of note for their purgation they are Du Hallyan Rainerius Thuanus and Cocleus Hallyan speakes but lispingly because he durst not speake plaine yet hee saith enough to conuince the enemies of the truth of shamefull calumniation The principall point saith he which brought the Waldenses into vniuersall hatred and which charged them with more euill opinions then they had was the libertie they tooke to blame the dissâ—lutenes of Princes and of the Clergie yea to tax the Popes themselues this was the Helena that wrought all their troubles as Rainerius the Inquisitor ingenuously confesseth This sect hath a great shew of godlinesse because they liue iustly before men and beleeue all things well concerning God and all the articles contained in the Creed solummodò Romanam Ecclesiam blasphemant et Clerum onely they speake euill of the Church of Rome and of the clergie Thuanus after hee had set downe truly the opinions of the Waldenses wherein they concurre with the Reformed Churches at this day addeth His praecipuis et certis eorum doctrinae capitibus alia affict a sunt de coniugio resurectione animarum statu post mortem c. To these especiall and certaine heads of their doctrine there are other added concerning wedlock the resurrection the state of soules after death c. Neuer did any mans stomacke more boyle with rancor and malice against any then Cocleus his against Wiclef whom hee condemneth to greater torments in hell then Iudas or Nero yet the truth extorted from Cocleus himselfe so much as in the iudgement of any indifferent man may cleare him and his scholer Hus froÌ„ those erroneous Articles that were laid to Hus his charge When hee was required by the Bishops to abiure the doctrine hee had taught he refused so to do lest he should wound his conscience and the truth of God but withall protesteth and that solemnly and that three seuerall times and that at the instant of his death that hee neuer held any of those Articles which the false witnesses deposed against him but held and taught and wrâ—te alwaies the contrary In a word hee breathed out his last gaspe with a complaint against his false accusers for laying to his charge doctrines hee neuer held taking it vpon his death that hee taught nothing but the truth of the Gospel which he would now seale with his bloud Hee had no sooner thus cleared his innocencie but his enemies set fire on the â—agot and burnt the Saint of God to ashes And shall wee imagine that Wiclef with whom Iohn Hus praied that his soule might bee after death whose picture Ierome of
some outward profession by which it is made visible or sensible doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church It is a true rule in Philosophy Vehemens sensibile corrumpit sensum the bright light of a Demonstration so buzzardeth you that you see not where you are nor knowe what you are about I am so farre from affirming that inward faith without outward profession maketh a visible member of Christs Church that from inward faith I inferre necessarily ex consequenti outward profession which as I sayd in the Conference makes a member of the visible Church Doo you grant the consequence or deny it If you grant it my Argument proceedeth if you deny it confirmabit pro me vester Aristoteles your great Clerke Cardinall Bellarmine makes good the consequence in this manner Qui non confitentur fidem sed eâ in corde retentâ exteriùs profitentur perfidiam et idololatriam non sunt boni nec saluantur cùm ad Roman 10. dicat Apostolus Corde creditur ad iustitiam ore autem fit confessio ad salutem et Mat. 10. Omnis qui negauerit me coram hominibus c. They are not good men nor shall bee saued who do not confesse the faith but keeping it in their hearts outwardly professe perfidiousnesse and idolatry For the Apostle Rom. 10. saith With the heart man beleeueth to righteousnes but with the tongue man confesseth to saluation And Mathew 10. Whosoeuer denieth me before men him wil I deny before my Father which is in heauen Let Master Fisher therefore looke back vpon my Argument and demonstrate to me though à posteriori what Academicall learning taught him to deny it to bee a demonstration à priori The Protestant Relation Paragraph the ninth touching a testimony alleaged by Master Fisher out of Doctor Field Doctor Featly That Church whose faith c. But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue Catholick faith once giuen to the Saints Ergo. M. Fisher. I answer the Minor If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe I absolutely deny it but if this proposition bee considered as it must bee as related to the first Question and the end thereof I further adde that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended to weet to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith necessary to saluation without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently the Visibility of the Church is first to bee shewed before the truth of Doctrine in particular shall be shewed D. Featly First what speake you of those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out faith Is any man able by his owne ability without the help of diuine grace Secondly what helpeth the Visibility to confirme the truth of the Church Visibility indeed prooues a Church but not the true Church Heere M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer Whereunto D. Featly promised Answer should bee made when it came to their turne to answer now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher. Master FISHER his Answer These words either were not spoken or M. Fisher did not regard them beeing in the midst of his Answer in which he went on shewing the necessity of a visible Church by a saying of D. Fields viz. Seeing the controuersies of Religion at this day are so many in number and so intricate in nature that few haue time and leasure fewer strength of wit and vnderstanding to examine them what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to seeke out which among all the Societies of men in the world is that Spouse of Christ the Church of the liuing God which is the pillar of the Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her direction and rest in her Iudgement M. Fisher therefore I say beeing busily speaking this did not regard what D. Featly did then say but might easily haue answered first that he neuer meant that any were able of themselues without help of Gods grace to attaine the true faith which hindreth not but that some may haue that ability of wit and learning by which they can better examine controuersies of faith then those that want these abilities Secondly although Visibility alone doe not prooue the true Church yet it supposing Gods promises that the true Church shall be alwaies visible much helpeth and want of Visibility in any one Age prooueth a company not to bee the true Church Doctor FEATLY'S Reply This parcell of your Answer containeth in it an allegation out of D. Field and an alleuiation or mitigation of a speech of yours sauouring of Pelagianisme To your allegation out of D. Field I answer Mitte quod scio Die quod rogo D. Fields speech I acknowledge which is very pertinent to his end but nothing to yours that it is requisite for all Christians especially the weaker to fly to the Church and hide themselues vnder her wings to preserue them from the danger of Romish Kites as D. Field prudently obserueth so no Protestant to my knowledge denieth Our Nouices and Catechumeni are taught as to honor God their Father so also the Church their Mother Now because the Whore of Babylon beareth her selfe as if shee were the Spouse of Christ and true Mother of all Christians it is most behoouefull to all those that haue care of the health of their soules to distinguish their true Mother from a false harlot the sincere milke and wholsome brests of the one from the poysoned dugs of the other to which end D. Fields Treatise of the Church is a singular help which when I reade mee thinks I see that strong wrestler Iritarius so much innobled by Pliny qui rectos â—t transuersos celatim toto còrpore habuit neruos who had double sinnewes running acrosse ouer all his body so able so sinewie a Writer is D. Field who hauing well traced true antiquity doth in that whole Treatise take vp your owne weapons and conquereth you with them hee takes away your strongest harnesse in which you trust I meane the Catholique Church proouing it to bee ours not yours To the authority of Scriptures which I here beginne at hee addeth the consent of the Church of the liuing God the pillar of truth in whose determination and Communion both wee and you are to rest But doe you M. Fisher in earnest or with mentall reseruation appeale to D. Fields iudgement Me thinks you draw the latch as if you meant to enter into the penetralia Clozet of that work of the Church If you bee willing so to doe I will leade you into the Entrie Turne me but the page ouer you shall finde before the circuit of the sentence alleaged by you be ended a Writ of Error sued against that Church which wil needs be the Mistresse and
moment and ground of the whole question Hee putteth the case that the debter tooke the two pieces out of the creditours purse Surely a blind or verie credulous creditor that would stand still till the debter picked his pocket O patience Good Sir Creditor if you can vpon your credit make good that those whom you intend by the two tendered pieces of coyne namely Christ and his Apostles are the proper legacy and riches of the Romane treasurie take vs your bondmen in stead of payment of the rest But if this field wherein this precious pearle lyeth bee by good title ours as I then would and at any time hereafter can proue I think vpon such conuiction you will haue small courage to clamour for the rest of your twentie Doe but looke on this coyne though loth and see whose image and superscription it carryeth is it not the liuely indeleble Character of our Sauiours Charter the Scriptures They are ours by Christ Christ ours by them The Roman pouch is so stuffed with Traditions so choaked with counterfait ouergilt Copper of new-minted Articles that Christ and his Apostles and Euangelists cannot bee admitted nay will not bee embased to bee mingled with such drosse But I wonder that you dwell so long vpon a money Similie I thought you had vowed pouerty and might not touch siluer I haue heard of some of your orders that if they touch coyne it blisters their hands as it is reported of a certaine Lady that if a Rose-leafe bee put vpon her hand as shee is asleep it will make it blister But it seemeth to mee that you are Theocritus his Fisher you fish for gold and if you are not wronged haue caught no small number of golden gudgeons in your net and transported them beyond the seas carrying Rem ad non res no smal stock to English Nunneries I had almost sayd Iesuitisses or Loyolasses And if you will needes haue a Similie from paying monie to illustrate this passage in the conference thus you may frame it Suppose a Catalogue for sixteene-hundred yeeres which haue runne since Christ to bee sixteen-hundred pound suppose the hundred yeeres to bee a hundred pound I by producing a Catalogue of visible Protestants in the first age lay downe a hundred pound of the summe and bid you tell it after me and then demand of you whether the summe bee right You answer that you will tell mee after you haue told the whole summe of 1600. pounds I presse you again againe to answer concerning this first summe whether it be right or no if it be right I promise to lay down al the rest in the like manner You answer as before Lay downe the rest or you shall not begin with the first next heap but with the last in coÌ„clusion I charge you as you wil answer it at your peril to your Master whose factor you pretend to bee to giue-ouer all cauilling plainly directly to answer me whether this first sum be right or not and when notwithstanding this deep charge you trifle cauill the witnesses who were to set their hands to my acquittaÌ„ce pul me away saying You shal deale no more with such a cauilling factor This is a true perfect embled of the breaking vp of the Conference wherewith I will breake vp my defence thereof The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eleuenth touching the issue of the Conference This Conference though it took not that progresse which was desired by reason of the Iesuites tergiuersation not permitting D. Featly to come to the ripenesse of any Argument yet it hath not beene fruitlesse for since that time the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Sir Humfrey Lynde and gaue him many thankes for the said meeting and assured him that hee was well resolued now of his Religion that hee saw plainely it was but the Iesuites bragging without proofes and whereas formerly by their sophisticall perswasions hee was in some doubt of the Church hee is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that hee doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests company and their doctrine also Master FISHER'S Answer I haue cause to doubt that this which the Relator saith is not true for thereby hee maketh the old Gentleman to bee but of a weake capacity or of a very mutable nature for first I am sure there was no cause giuen in the Conference of any such effectuall resolution to bee made by the old Gentleman Secondly I cannot see when this speech should bee made by the Gentleman to Sir Humfrey If immediately after the Conference it would argue too much want of capacitie for if hee did but rightly conceiue the true state of the Question in which himselfe had especially desired to bee satisfied as I verily hope hee did hee might easily haue marked the insufficiencie of D. Featly his diuerting proofes which also were so answered as the audience for want of satisfaction in them vrged him to leaue off and 〈◊〉 produce names of Protestants in all Ages the which producing of names beeing so oft and earnestly required to bee done in all Ages and yet beeing onely pretended and that most falsely to be done for one Age and the Conference beeing so abruptly left off by D. Featly before he would goe forward to name men in other Ages especially in Ages before Luther at the question required any meane capacitie might see that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to bee satisfied was not fully answered nor consequently hee satisfied Moreouer the same Gentleman beeing present when the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher that D. Featly should at another time come againe to giue names of Protestants in other Ages hee might easily and doubtlesse did vnderstand that as yet 〈◊〉 in all Ages were not giuen nor consequently the Question satisfied in which hee expected Answer Furthermore presently after hee went away from the Conference hee told M. Fisher himselfe that hee was glad that at the next meeting his Question should bee answered which shewed that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered Lastly diuers dates after all the trouble and stirre was past which was made about the Conference the old Gentleman was not â—ore solute a Protestant as the Relator pretendeth for meeting M. Fisher and M Sweet hee desired them to giue him a Catalogue of names of Professors of the 〈…〉 that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants hee should dislike their cause Which Catalogue M. Fisher and M. Sweet haue ready for him but will not deliuer till he get the Doctors to make theirs ready that hee bring to them the Doctors Catâ—logue with one hand and receiue theirs with the others to deliuer to the Doctors All that can bee suspected is that in the very time of the said stir when the old Gentleman either was or feared to bee called in question it may perhaps bee that he might say those words which the Relator mentioneth But this if
of Prague it appeares by those his words in Asser. articul 32. Iohannem Hus et Hieronymum viros catholicâ—s combusserunt haeretici ipsi Apostatae Antichristi discipuli they burnd Iohn Hus and Hierom both Catholique men they being themselues Heretiques and Apostataes and the disciples of Antichrist And in his first preface to some of the Epistles of Hus prefixed to the works of Hus In numero istorum operum sanctissimi Domini papae habetur et hoc quòd in Constantiensi Concilio optimum et pijssimum virum Iohannem Hus damnauit In the number of those workes of the holy Father the Pope this is one that in the Councell of Constance hee condemned Iohn Hus a man of singular worth and extraordinary piety And in the second preface Has Epistolas sancti Martyris Iohannis Hus c. These Epistles of the holy Martyr Iohn Hus And in his third Preface A fide dignis hominibus percepi Imperatorem Maximilianum de Iohanne Hus dicere solitum Hei hei secerunt bono illi viro iniuriam Et Erasmus Roter in primis libellis quos typis excusos adhuc mecum habeo manifestè scribit Iohannem Hus exustum quidem sed non conuictum esse Tale omni tempore bonorum virorum iudicium fuit quòd illata ei sit vis et iniuria Et paulò pòst porrò In confesso est attestantibus et aduersarijs quorum ipse nonnâ—llâ—s eosque magnos theologos audiui ante annos 30 fuisse 〈◊〉 excellenter doctum et eruditione atque doctrinâ antecellüisse omnibus Doctoribus in toto Conciliâ— Ego olim Erphordiae studij Theologiae tyro incidens in librum sermonum Iohannis Hus prae euriositate quadam incendebar desiderio cognoscendi quaenam dogmata haeresiarcha ille sparsisset cùm hic liber in publica Bibliothecâ ab incendio sernatuâ— esset â—itertâ— inter lâ—gendum obstupefactuâ— admiratione afficiebar propè incre dibili quam ob causam tandem exâ—â—â—â—s esset vir tantus in explicandâ et tractandâ scripturâ tam dexter et grauis c. I haue heard from men of credit that the Emperour Maximilian was wont to say of Iohn Hus Alas alas they did that good man wrong and Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed lying yet by me writeth that indeed Iohn Hus was burned but not conuicted This was the iudgement of learned men alwaies concerning Iohn Hus that great wrong and violence was offered vnto him For proofe whereof hee alleageth Doctor Staâ—pritius and Andrew Praule and in the end addeth moreouer It is a thing confessed euen by our Aduersaries themselues some of whom beeing great Diuines I heard 30 yeeres agoe that Iohn Hus was excellently learned and farre beyond all the Doctors in that Councell I my selfe when I was a young Student in Diuinity at Erford meeting with a booke of Sermons penn'd by Iohn Hus was inflamed with a desire of reading it thorow that I might know what were the heresies which this Arch-heretick broached This book was happily kept from burning lying hid among many other in the publique Library in the reading whereof I was amazed and could not sufficiently admire what the cause might be that so great a Clarke so expert and dexterous in expounding and handling Scripture should bee burned Thus you see how farre Luther was from detracting from any of his fore-runners to whom hee yeelded as ample a testimony for the Truth as they had yelded to the Truth And I desire the indifferent Reader to obserue how Iohn Hus his prophesie before his death was fulfilled in Luthers vindicating his doctrine and person Iohn Hus his words were which are yet to bee seene stamped in antient coyne currant among the Hussites Centum reuolutis annis c. After a hundred yeeres you shall answer God and mee and some affirme that hee added Iam Hus that is in the Bohemian Language Goose but there shall follow mee a Swan c. And indeed after a hundred yeeres that Swan appeared in the world which most sweetly beganne to record the pure notes of the Songs of Sion whose strong quill hath eternized Iohn Hus his innocencie of life and purity of Doctrine Master FISHER Wherefore the Lutheran Conradus Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany and the like is of other countries before Luther did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell And another of them not onely saith in effect thus much but prooueth it by this Argument If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformation Another saith It is ridiculous to think that in the time before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receiue if from them and 〈◊〉 they from Luther considering saith hee it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers time all Churches were ouer-whelmed with more then Câ—merian darknesse and that Luther was diuinely raised vp to discouer the same and to restore the light of true doctrine Doctor FEATLY'S Answer First I would haue you to know M. Fisher that I hold my self no way bound to giue an account of euery rayling or ouer-lashing Lutherans speech no more then you will vndertake to make good euery inuectiue of the secular Priests against the Iesuites such Writers of the petâ—y forme of little antiquity and lesse learning were not wont to be alledged in controuersies of moment in Diuinity But I perceiue by you M. Fisher that according to the Prouerb all is fish that commeth to your net If these three had ioyntly testified that for which you cite them yet their testimonies might soone bee blowne away by the conspiring breath of many Protestants of better rank then they Regius alledged by your owne Brerely testifyeth most expresly the contrary Dico fuisse ante Lutherum verae Religionis et qui cum Luthero per omnia consentires coetum Ecclesiasticum etsi à pontificijs non fuerit agnitus nec propter tyrannidem pontificium fortasse ostendi visibiliter potuerit I say that before Luther there was a companie professing the true Religion of the same beliefe with Luther although this company was not agnized by the Papists nor peraduenture could visibly be shewne or poynted at by reason of the Popish tyrannie Whitaker auowes Regius Our Church was then viz. in the Ages before Luther But it was not visible saith Bellarmine to weet in the Popish sense What then Will it follow that therefore it was not at all in the world By no meanes for it lay hid in the Desart Oâ—colampadius and Martin Bucers Letters to the Waldenses are extant in their works I might alledge the testimonies of Constance and Bullinger Vesembekius Viret Vigneaâ—s Caluin Beza Humfrey Fox Illyriâ—us and many other Protestants of higher rank then such sneakers as Schlusenburg or Myllius or Morgenst All the