it hath some smale force in humane sciences for as muche as naturallie and in that he is a man he maye come to some rypenes off Iudgement in those sciences Which in diuine maters hathe no force at all as off him which naturally and as he is a man can no more Iudge off them then a blind man off colours Yea so farre is it from drawing credite if it be barelie spoken withowt reason and testimonie off Scripture that it carieth also a suspition off vntrewth whatsoeuer proceded from him which the Apostle did well note when to signifie a thing corruptlie spoken and against the truthe he saith that it is spoken according vnto man he saith not as a wicked or lying man but symplie as a man And althowghe this corruption be reformed in manye yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truthe is most advāced there remaineth bothe ignorance and disordered affections wheroff either turneth him from speaking off the truth no mans authoritie withe the church especiallie and those that are called and perswaded off the authoritie off the word off God can bring any assurance vnto the conscience So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were trew as it is vntrue and iff all those authorities which are alledged were faithfullie and according to the meaninge off the writers cited as they are almost all writhen and falsified yet being for the most part vpholden by the bare authoritie and credite off men they can giue no reste to any Christian conscience which shall leane vppon them And iff he saye that those men haue not spoken withowt reason and warrant off the word of god then besides that he is greatly to blame that bringeth not the reasons which moued them to thinke so and wherupon as vppon certen pillers that sentence might stand it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authoritie hathe no force as that which hathe no credit off it selffe but as altogither lame is faine to borowe feete off an other And then the D. should haue considered that for so muche as the reason off authoritie standeth for the cause and sake off an other that is to saye for the argument off causes and other places it must needes be worse then the arguments wherupon it hangeth for that for whose cause another thinge is is better thē the thing which dependeth vpon it And therby further followeth that forsomuch as reason withowt authoritie is good and authoritie withowt reason nothing worthe that those argumentes whiche are grounded vpon reasons are better then those which are grounded vppon authoritie And wheras peraduenture he will seke some colour of defence off his absurd speache in the wordes which he addeth of suche learned men as do rightly interprete the scripture that addition as it taketh not awaye from the absurditie so it addeth to the folie and impropretie of speche For besides that he taketh that for graunted which is the question that is to saye whether it be rightlie interpreted or noo he should haue vnderstanded that the rightnes of the interpretation depēdeth not vpon the authoritie of the man or in that suche a godlie or learned man did so interprete it but in that the place is expounded agreablie vnto the suite of the texte And that the D. which vnder the name off auncient authoritie would oppresse the truthe may vnderstand that euen in this magnifiyng of authoritie he is not so good a scholer o◠disciple off his pretended masters of diuerse sentences off the fathers them selues wherby some haue likened them vnto brute beastes withowt reason which suffer themselues to be led by the iudgement and authoritie off others some haue preferred the iudgement of one simple rude mā alledging reason vnto companies off learned men I will content my selffe at this time with two or thre sentences Ireneus saith Vvhatsoeuer is to be shevved in the scripture can not be shevved but of the scriptures thē selues 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith No man be he neuer so holie or eloquent hathe any authoritie after the Apostles Augustin saith that he vvill beleue none hovv godly and lerned so euer he be vnles he confirme his sentence by the scriptures or by some reason not cōtrary to them And in an other place heare this the Lord saith heare not this Donatus saithe Rogatus saithe Vicentius saith Hilarius saith Ambrose saith Augustin saithe but harken to this the Lord saithe And againe hauinge to doo withe an Arrian affirmeth that neither he ovvght to bringe forthe the councell off Neece nor the other the councell of Arimin therby to btinge preiudice eche to other neither ovvght the Arrian to be houlden by the authoritie off the one nor him selffe by the authoritie of the other but by the scriptures vvhiche are vvitnesses proper to neither but common ro bothe matter vvith matter cause vvith cause reason vvith reason ovvght to be debated And in another place against Petiliane the donatian hereticke he saith Let not these vvordes be heatd betvvene vs I Saye yovv Saye let vs heare this Thus saithe the lord and by and by speaking off the scriptures he saithe there let vs seeke the churche there let vs trie the cause Here yt is manifest that the argument of authoritie off man affirmatiuely is nothing worthe which the answerer notwithstanding maketh so great accounts off likewise that reason whiche is not directly against the trewth is preferred to authoritie which the A. denieth and if Augustin thowght that in a matter off controuersie the authoritie off so manye godlie and learned fathers as were assembled at that Councell off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightlie owght not to be alledged not onelie to condemne and conuince but not so muche as to preiudice an heresie long agoo condemned iff he would haue the trewth tried by the scripture onely let all men iudge how euill a folower off Augustin the D. is which in the authoritie of one or two men layeth so great weight that he thinketh that kinde off proufe to be the best proufe off his and ouerthrowe off his aduersaries cause And iff at any time it happened vnto him as it did against the Donatistes ▪ and others to alledge the authorite off the auncient fathers which had bene before him yet that was not done before be had layed a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures and that also being prouoked by the aduersaries off the treuth who bare themselues highe off some Councell or off some man off name that had fauoured their parte And therfore iff the A. would salue this with the example off Augustin in other places yet for that he neuer in any cause laieth any foundation either of any scripture or colour of scripture ād being prouoked flieth still from it as from the rocke and sandes o his cause it is clere that if he had that authoritie which he pretendeth vntrulie on his side yet the vse off it in this sorte were bothe by the rule off
partly vnderstode both by Capâ—â—â—â— letters written to comfort a ministre off Geneua then Wrestling for yt as by Bezas wordes which particularly note one or two partes therof Nether can disagreemeÌ„t of the fauourers thereoff in interpretation of some place signification of some word alteration off some circumstance yf any be hinder this no more then diuers pictures off one face hauing al the same great and principal drawghts can hinder vs from acknowledging the same visage in them al albeit one be more coningly drawn then other haue more liuely and orient couloures then other haue one smal line more or les then other Onles peraduenture men wil be so vnaduised to denie the doctrine off the Gospell to be the same professed at Geneua at Zurick at Witemberg because the professors had in some smaller points their seueral Iudgements Another principall kinde off artillery wherwith the D. leueleth at this wal off church discipline is â—haccusation off Anabaptistry This also as may appeare is taken from the Papistes For when the persequuting off the churche in Fraunce where together with the doctrine this discipline was established was misliked off the Almanes the French to appease them said there vvere none so cruelly handled but Anabaptists and troublesome felovves vvhich vvould ouerthrovv not religion onely but the vvhole order off the commeÌ„ vvealth And althowgh the D. hath in this behalf trauailed mightily and gathered as yt were a heape off stones to throw at vs yet for feare off being conuincted off so manifest vntrwthes he dare not throw one but priuilie and as yt were vnder hand saying he will not accuse any he will not condemne any that is he will forsothe not flea vs him self but hould our legs while other flea vs But he shal neuer so escape the iudgemement off god For yf he were giltie which kept their garments that cast the stones how much more shall he that put stones in their handes althowgh yf we were suche we owght so to be noted that others might take heed off suche detestable heretikes All which false surmises with diuers others of Donatism Papism puratanism We might with one sentence off the holy man Iob haue refuted For so are they not onely vntrw but for the moste parte without al colour of trwth that taking our aduersaries boke off accusations vpon our shoulders and applying them vnto our heades that al might read and see them wee might as off a crovvne or robe haue receiued commendation by them Howbeit because there was some daunger least the D. lofty titles and glittering estate might ether seduce som simple ones or vtterly carie away those whose mindes were forestalled with some preiudice against the cause we maintein I thowght good once at large aÌ„d peece by peece to lay forth the vnworthines of his accusations Now I see there is no end of his vnhonest charges I meane not by further answer in poursuit off his oulde or auoiding his nwe ether weary my selfe or the reader For seing the vntrwth off them is in the eies and eares off all why shoulde I trauaile to stop his Throate which as an open sepulchre off vntrw sumises wil as seemeth neuer with any reasonable answer be filled vp And that yow may haue a taste off his equitie note I beseche yow his answers vnto our defence This is wel said if vnfained These glorious wordes are but mistes to blind the eies off the simple The Anabaptistes would saie the like Verely if they say so they shall deteste them selues with all their wicked phantasies and gyue as sounde a Confession of the trwth as the Doctor can make any But let vs imagin him selfe accused off all these pointes which he surmiseth of vs I would gladly know what he would answer Let him conceiue his purgation as effectually and in as good wordes as he can make al the protestations he can offer him self to what examination he can how easie ys yt for his aduersarie with the same equitie he vseth towardes vs to dashe al. This is wel said but it is fained there was neuer heretike which to hide bis poison pretended not some colour off truth c. And by the grace off God we are as far yea further also as shall appeare from al pointes off Anabaptisme then he But saith he let the like effectes proceding of like causes and in like maner iudge the likelihoode betweene the Anabaptistes and them Truly yf he proue the causes like the controuersie is at an â—â—de And if the searche off the trwth had bene his marke here he would haue begon where the triall is certaine and not off the effectes Which allthowgh they be falsly surmised yet some are suche as maie ensue albeit after another sorte aswell the preaching off the trwth as the publishing off falshood And surely if the Anabaptistes when they rose in Germany had met with suche confuters yt is very like that they now put to flight would haue occupied the greatest part off it But the godlie mynisters assured of a good cawse prouoked to most solemn disputations where all seyng their vanities might learne to deteste them and them selues made to vnderstand their folies might be stricken with shame which might bringe repentance This they did by example off the Godlie learned in times past and off Augustine namely Who prouoketh the Donatistes and Manichies to Disputation in the hearing off all his church This cause therfore if yt should not preuaile by force off trwthe yt must gaine throwghe the indirecte meanes and cowardly fight off the Answerer so far from procuring this trial that he accuseth me as desirous of popular praise because refusing his priuat confeâ—rence as he some where hath affirmed I onely put him in minde of a disputacion Wherto also perteineth that he counteth yt Anabaptistical that this ys propounded in places where the gospell hath bene alredy planted As if there were a fitter place to propounde the Discipline then vvhere the doctrine hathe allredie beene receiued where shoulde the vvall be fitlier made then where the citie is before builded Where the diche caste but where the Orcheyarde is alreadie planted Yf yt had bene preached where was ignorance or small knowledge of the gospell the would haue taken great aduantage for that they might so haue abused the blindnes of their heares to cause them beleue that which those that haue their eyes open could not be brought vnto Now they preache in places vvhere the gospell was planted he will make that also serue for a stepp for his accusation to clime vp by So that howsoeuer we behaue our selues what commoditie off circumstance soeuer we haue the D. hathe suche an engine that he can not onely cause yt not to serue for vs but also make against vs For sure I am no place could haue bene les suspected then London and Cambridge two off the highest hills in all the realme from whence bothe the sounde off yt might
they would goe one foot back from that truth off the discipline which they had learned owt off the word off God which had bene rashly doen if the matter had bene off so smal importance as that for redeming off peace they might haue let the cause of the disciplin fal or laid it aside vntill a fitter time There are God be praised no tumultes nor vprores with vs and I hope there shal be none but as yt is not lawful for vs to moue any so to withdraw the hand from defense off the cause for feare of them to be moued by others is against dutie There are others which as the espies off the land of Canaan confessing it good and profitable for the churche yet in respect of the manifold lets affirme it a thing impossible and therby not onely discorage them selues but weaken the handes off other And euen here also I see Rebecca again For yt appeareth by the lordes answer vnto her tvvo peoples should be deuided ovvt of her bovvls that she was in some dispair off hauing strenght to be deliuered of her desired seed considering the daungerous wrestlings and struglinges in her womb And in deed if we consider our selues if we look vpon our own armes I graunt the walles against it are higher then will be scaled the gates and barres are stronger then wil be broken throwgh the children come to the birth there wil be no strenght to bring forth For herein casting our accōptes we must wait for not onely the misliking of our brethern which be misled the hatred of the obstinat Papistes which see their kingdō vnreparable if this get place but the deadly enimities off Hypocrites and Atheistes which wil not suffer their vntamed lustes to come vnder any yoke off correction nor their lose affections off riotous pleasures proud ambition and vnsatiable couetousnes to be bound vvith any bandes off wholesome discipline But of the other side if we look vnto the lord and his mighty arme which not onely with a blast of his mouth striketh the walles and breaketh the gates in peeces but also maketh the high walles to fall and the yron gates to open of their owne accord which maketh not onely the weak but euen the barē women to bring forth No difficulty or impossibilitie in the iudgement off men owght to turne vs from any lawfull endeuour to promote the cause The example off the wall in Ierusalem finished notwithstanding al the enimies serueth here for our confirmation For if the lord stretched forth his hand for furtherance of that material wall he will not in the aduauncing off this spiritual hould it in his bosome Yf he forsoke not his seruantes vnder heathen Princes he will not be wanting to them vnder Christian Hetherto belongeth the example in Geneua before mentioned The whole estate off the Citie almost from the highest vnto the lowest amongest whom were also the greatest part off the ministers was bent against yt two or three simple men scarce able to traine their legges after them hauing no other armour then the trwth and a good conscience stand for it Yf flesh and bloud should here sit in iudgement the field were lost or euer yt were begun the freendes off the discipline should for that they toke the defense in hand be accounted fooles for that they would not cōpound the matter mad men But what was the issue Verily the Lord so magnified his word in the hand of his seruātes that after trial off their patience by diuers troubles the Capitaines against yt came to shameful end a number yealded the rest that continued their enemitie durst not shew yt the trwth yt self was established and so to the singuler commendation off that citie remaineth And shall we in so great a nomber whose heartes the Lord hath inclined to fauour this cause despaire especially seing yt ys easier to be established with vs then with them and may here be setled withowt so muche as a dog mouing his tong which was not there withowt daungerous vprores For where no wholsom law can pas there onles the most part consent onely the hundreth part with vs weigheth down all the rest Yt remaineth that as the Iwes in the wal off Ierusalem did euery one according to the abilitie the Lord had blessed them with builde his part so those whose hartes the lord hath lightened with the knowledg of this truth should as their callings and meanes which the lord hath giuen them will serue lay their handes to the work That those whom the lord hath giuen fauour or acces vnto her maiestie would set before their eies the exāple of that worthy courtier Nehemias which forgetting his priuat profit and preferment for full recompence of all his faith full seruice vnto his Prince was glad to obtein at his hand the building vp of the walles off the citie of God and therfore not to reserue the grace and credit they haue with her highnes for their owne matters but to bestow yt vpon the Lordes That the Prince her selfe woulde consider how to let pas the daunger vnto her sowle vnworthy yt ys off her honour if throwgh vntrw reportes ether against the cause or fauourers therof she turne away her eare from hearing and taking knowledge of it seing a heathen king did not admit suche rumors against that which concerned the glory off God althowgh they were offred thick and three fould and that by his one coutrey men against the Iwes whiche were but straungers Finally that we all continually pray to the lord that he would vouchsafe to open their eies whiche are yet ignorant in this behalf confirme those which haue knowledge and confound thē if any be which ether for honour or lucres sake willingly bend thē selues against the trueth To the reader THe cause off the slovvnes of ansvver hath bene in part my often sicknes and vvant off bookes off all Sortes a fevv onely excepted vvhich I brovght vvith me and those for the most part English so that for euery Place almost cited off the D. I vvas constreined to seek in other mens libraries and after I had vsed the book to cary it home againe VVhich vvith vvhat los of time yt vvas may easely be estemed Ad hereunto the slacknes off the print For althovvgh yt had bene my singuler aduantage both for polishing and better ordering off thinges to haue put nothing vnder the pres before the vvhole book had bene finished yet beginning to print after I had made an end off one treatise and begon an other yt vvas notvvithstanding scarce able to ouertake me Amongest the causes vvhy I set forth one part before the vvhole vvas ended one ys for that this former part rose to a iust volume An other that if any thing haue escaped vvhich may be hurtfull vnto the trvvth I might being aduertised amend yt in the later part vvheroff I desire the Godly reader vvith as conuenient speed as he can to gyue me vnderstanding The
whom there is any light off iudgement would say it is matter off storie vvhether the appointing off one in euery church ouer the rest is remedie againste heresie or no I◠perteineth to the storie that one was placed ouer the rest at such tyme and place as is set downe by Ierome likewise that the cawse that moued them to bring in this coustome was for preseruacion off peace and none off thes is denied but whether this cawse were well assigned and whether this supposed to preserue peace banished godly peace is the question If this be a matter off storie storie hath a larger kingdome then euer I heard off Yet this he doth as absurdly charge me with after in Iustines testimonie where likewise I denie no part off his storie Yf this be to discredite men to say their autoritie ovvght not to vveigh further then yt hath vveight ether off scripture or some reason grovvnded theroff then I haue discredited all writers from the Apostels time For by thes weightes I haue esteemed the best But I leaue to be cōsidered what a popish tyrānie he goeth abowt to bring into the church which lifteth the credit of any be he neuer so godly ād learned aboue that which I haue here alledged Where he saith I confound Monarchie with Tyrannie in that I ask whether the church be not in as great daunger when all is doon at the pleasure off one as when one pulleth one peece and an other an other yt is but a vaine shifting hole For althowgh thes wordes at the Pleasure and lust off one be for the moste part spoken by way off dispraise and I willingly confesse I vsed them becawse this Ecclesiasticall monarchie seldome or neuer deserueth better yet my wordes following declare that my comparison is betwene the Ecclesiasticall gouernement off one and off many not betwene one gouerning tyrannically and many moderatly For supposing that both the Archbishop and those which gouerne in commen be godly and catholike I affirme that he being one is sooner drawen into error then many sooner ouercaried with his affection then a godly companie In answer wherof and reasons wherwith this is confirmed the D. falleth flatly into that wherewith he chargeth me For in steed that he should haue marched many godly and learned ministers with one he matcheth him with the multitude and commē sort and in steed off comparing one ruling by law with many gouerning by the same he compareth him with a lawles companie and in steed off comparing a litle vvater with much of the same kinde he compareth a litle conduite water closed vp in lead with much fennish and muddy Which what leaden answers they be let the reader iudge For in this path of reasoning which he walketh in a man may proue it better to haue but one eye then two becawse some see better with one then other some with both His answer to that off preferring contention before vvicked peace that we haue the true doctrine and right administration of Sacramentes c. and therfore no contention is to be moued is as muche to the question as if he had answered off the wether For the question is not of the estate off our church but off all generally nor whether we haue the truth of doctrine c. but by what way yt ys best kept His answer to the similitude of fire stricken by flintes is more fond For I shewing by yt that contētion is better then wicked peace he answereth the fire stricken may be in suche a time that it may consume the whole countrey and that it is madnes to light a candell at noone daies As if the fire off the truth which I spake off and so called off our Sauiour can consume any thing but straw stuble c. or the Apostle were not glad that the truth came forth allthowgh by contention or it were noone day when the heauens thorowgh ignorāce ād errors are like an haircloth which is the time I spake of And where hauing shewed that tharchbishop is not fittest to kepe the church in possession off the truth I admit by way off disputation that he vvere the fittest adding that forsomuch as he hath as great force to kepe men in error vvhen they are fallen into it this in commoditie ovvght to driue vs to some other gouernement he answereth a monarchie being the worst kind of gouernement when it ruleth by affection ceasseth not to be lawfull when it ruleth by lawes Where first I refer the reader to that before that it is one thing off the forme off church gouernement an other of the commēt wealth which is answer to all thes slanderous speaches here repeted Secondly the church receiueth greater dammage by an Archbishop keping yt in error then the commen wealth by any outrage off tyrannie For there can be no tyrannie in the gouernement off the cōmen wealth so extreme wherin there is not somthing tending to preseruacion off it and consequently off the church But in the gouernement off an Archbishop fallen from the truth and in the swinge off his vncontrolled autoritie keping the truth vnder there is nothing but destruction and ruine withowt step or footing off the fauour off God towardes the vpholding off the church Seing therfore tyrannie in the commen wealth is not so great an ennemy vnto the commen wealth as a church tyrant vnto the truth there is better cawse to haue a Monarchie in the commen wealth then in the church as that which can not stray so far as the other from the end wherunto it was ordeined Moreouer the cawse why the Monarchie in commen wealth can not be condemned is for that it is one off those gouernementes which God hath established and allowed by his word But the Archbishoprick to let pas that yt is contrarie to the word off God yt is sufficient in this consideration that yt hath no allowance off the same For therupon foloweth that althowgh the abuse off those thinges which God hath approued can not destroie the lawfull vse off them yet this which hath no further alowance then of the mouth off mē may vpon experience off euill husbandrie in the church matters be worthely reiected So yt may be seen that althowghe the Ans would make one case off a Magistrate and archbishop yet there is as far distance betwene them as betwene heauen and earth Yt resteth to shewe that the archbishopricke hath bene so farre from nourishing the church peace that yt hath bene the knife wherwith all the stringes and knottes theroff haue bene cutte in peaces Againste vvhich the Ans alledgeth firste the testymonies off Cyprian and Ierome Wherin besyde that I haue shewed that they helpe him not yt is before declared that nether Cyprians bishop did any thing at all nor Ieromes the ordination excepted but by common consent off all the elders Not onely because they were at making off the church lawes vnder which wrinckel the D. woulde hide the excesse off the archbishops
Athanasius when he was but deacon or elder at the most writeth To Athanasius Lord and beloued sonÌ„e So that if Dominus must needes be a Lord then my Lord bishop muste by the same reason that he would be called Lord call the elders or Deacons Lordes likewise So there shall be Lord Bishop Lord Elder Lord Deacon vvhich as it is ridiculous so it tuneth not with the bishops note off honour which the D. fighteth for And this is also answer to my Lord Paulinus beside that Lord is not referred vnto the pronoune yovvres as if the councell had said Athanasius was the elders Lord. And if it were yet if he vvill therupon conclude any superioritie of him aboue thelders off his church he must by the same reason say that one simple bishop had superioritie ouer an other seing Eusebius bishop calleth Paulinus his fellow bishop his Lord which is absurd and condemned off him self Now I haue shewed him how bishopes were called most honorable Lordes he hath gotten two or three places where are found titles to the same effect which is idle seing that was confessed To my answer that Lorde vvith them vvas no other title then might be gyuen to a man off meane degree he saith most honorable Lord was onely gyuen to those in great autoritie which is onely said and may easely be confuted in that Alexander bishop off Alexandria the Metropolitane citie vvriting to all the church ministers not bishops onely called them most honorable fellovv ministers That he saith it was not grudged at then that bishops were called by the same titles that Princes ys very plaine language and needeth no commentarie to shew the meaning sauing that he durst not vtter all For if he would haue applied his place he shoulde haue saide yt was not grudged at then that bishops vvere called by more loftie titles then th Emperours seing the title he presseth for the bishops is most precious Lordes and the Emperour as he saith vvas onely called Lord. That the house off salutations was within the boundes off the churche appeareth not in Theodoret. His reason because the houses perteining to the bishoprick were nere the churche is weake For althowgh all howses perteining to the bishoprik were neere yet there might be some neere not perteining therto Hâ—â—beit if it were belonging to the church in that vvord there is no such note off excellency wherby yt deserueth to be the porters lodge of our bishops palaces To that off the bishops bestovving the church goods vpon loitering seruing men vvhich shoulde be bestovved vpon the vniuersities and poore bothe ministers and other he saith and onely saith that their number off seruing men tendeth to the defense off the realme honour off the prince and their owne good education off the princes honour yt is answered strenght to the realme they can not be seing the men should be althowghe they were not nourished by the bishop especially seing the bishops howse is an vnfit schole to traine vp to vvarfare And if the former necessities were helped aÌ„d yt thowght meet that the church goods should serue the realm that vvay all see that yt would rise to more profit if some were nourished off them in profession off a Souldiour then that in waiting vpon the white Rochet they should rather become vvhite liuered then fashioned for that seruice Beside that the bishops countenaÌ„ce being so profitable as yt is made and placed a greate parte in this suite off men it is manifest that his pompe houlding diuers at home which otherwise might be in the field weakeneth rather then strenghneth the realme For the education they get vnder them the corrupte religion of some the wante of Catechising others ignorant in the principles of religion the leudnes of diuers the idlenes off the most parte which is in the eies of all giue to plentifull a confutation off that parte wherin let the reader obserue how vnmeet they be to gouern dioceses and Prouinces which haue their proper houses so euil ordered especially seing the Apostel vvill not truste him vvith one parishe vvhich ruleth not his owne howse vvel And the trwth ys that the church mynistery is of that trauaill and care that yt vvill not suffer the bishops gyftes be they neuer so greate to be spente in the houshoulding and masterlike charge off suche a nomber vvhich vvas no doubt one cause why bothe the scripture and the olde Canons shut owt the bishops from this pompe Where he saith the vniuersities ministers and poore may otherwise be prouided for when that ys browght to pas and in suche sorte as a sufficient nomber â—f learned men may be nourced vp to fournish bothe the churche off ther ministers and coÌ„men wealth off her magistrates the ouerplus may as M. Hoopers counsail is goo to maintenance off Souldiours or other necessary vses aduised off by the common vvealthe That the canons browght against the bishops pomp reache to vniuersitie colledges forasmuch as there were none such then as we haue now ys vntrwe considering that with other vniuersities euery bishops howse vvas as hathe bene shewed a colledge off Students in diuinitie and yt ys otherwise vnsufficient For I reason not againste their pompe because yt was not vsed in times paste but because yt was forbidden And if he can shew the reuenews off Colledges forbidden by the Godly councels then yt had heue somewhat he saith Ad also that if the pompe and ryot off Colledges werelike the bishops yt were likewise worthie to be spoken against Ierome cited against the pompe of bishops receiueth answer that he spake agaynste the abuse and not thuse Ieromes wordes be these let the readeriudge off his meanig yt is a foule shame that before the gates off pore and crucified Christe VVho also eate of other mens meate the Consuls Sergeantes and Gard shoulde vvaite and that the ruler off the Prouince shoulde dine better at thy hovvse then in the palace But if thovv pretend to do these thinges to th ende to beg for the poore the Secular iudge vvill giue more to a churche man vvhich kepethe measure and is frugall then to one vvhich is riche and reuerence more thy holines then thy riches Or if the ruler be suche that he vvill not hearken to the churchmen ctauing for the poores reliefe but vvhen he is amongest the cupps I vvill gladly vvant suche a benefit and beg off Christ in stede off the iudge vvho is better and soner able to helpe then the iudge I omit that he inueighethe against a church maÌ„ which poore before becometh riche by the church aÌ„d liuing very homely before after vsethe delicate fare with other thinges to that ende Whether this were one cause off the bishops stately pompe that certeine noble and riche men receâ—â—ed to the mynistery and liuing somvvhat like their former estates others assaied to be like vnto them whether an other cause were for that it being amongest the heathen priests
abowt to make men beleue that I haue some thinge that I would not haue men vnderstand And althoughe he confesse he vnderstand it not yet he reprehendeth it and so it commeth to him which S. Iude chargethe the false teachers withe in his tyme that he speaketh euill off that he knoweth not He asketh here for examples and they stick still in his throate vnswalowed and vndigested whiche the admonition gaue him when he hathe ouercome those then let him aske for more examples And wheras he ascribethe as a great absurditie to vs that we make the order off chusinge the minister before the eldershipp and gouernment be established somewhat diuerse from that which is before putting this florishe vppon it that we allowe off all thinges owt off order thoughe against our owne order so it be against common order I will not goo abowte to confute that here or to shew what good cause there is off this diuersitie it being sufficiently declared in that booke whiche togither withe the right forme off gouernment commaunded owt off the worde off god notethe the disorders off our churche onelie I will aske M. D. whether the consecration as it is called off the Archbishops and Bishopps at the first entrie off the Queenes maiestie vvas the same altogither vvithe that vvhiche hathe bene sithens And iff there were a difference betwene that and this then in this great desire off his to stricke he care not how nor after What sorte his strooke is fallen vppon him selffe and vpon those whom he vndertaketh to defend That the wordes off the admonition haue not that sense which is here ascribed vnto yt I haue shewed in the proper place neither will I touche it here althoughe the A. set it twentie tymes before me Yff he haue any thing to saye against that whiche I haue said there it shall be considered Althoughe here the D. was taken eueÌ„ in the verie acte of false coyninge yet he shameth not to denie yt and withe that bloudnes and foreheade that he is readie also to accuse him that taketh him withe the manner He biddeth me peruse more diligentlie the wordes off M. Bullingar I haue perused them and set them downe first in latin and then in Englishe and iff I haue not turned them truelye shew wherin I haue faulted and iff they be truelie turned then I demaunde againe where these wordes be founde in any of those leaues of Bullinger whiche yow quote That they could not teache truelie because they had great liuinges Yow saye they be word for word there shew but the same sense or meaninge that is to saye that this off M. Bullingers that the Anabaptistes said they could not teache the truthe vvhiche had any liuinge is all one withe that whiche yow haue set downe that they can not teache the truthe which haue great liuinges And iff yow can not shew it your falsification remaineth increased withe the open facing of an vntruthe In deede if yow can put owt all men eyes aÌ„d take away froÌ„ vs our senses and all light off grammer and off the knowledge off signification and proprietie off wordes it will not be impossible for yow withe suche confident speaches as yow vse to make vs beleue that all is turned vpside downe and that the earth hangeth ouer our heades and the heauens are vnderneath our feete but yow deceiue your selffe if yow thincke that yovve can beare downe the truthe so or that yow can hide falshoode by adding another vnto yt wherby it is made bigger and more easie to be sene then before The place added owt off M. Zuinglius Ecclesiastes maketh nothing to the saluinge off your falshoode and how farre our men as it pleasethe yow to call them are farre from all suche sayinges I haue before declared Yff yow shew as yow saye that I do giue to litle vnto the magistrate I will confesse my faulte and confesse my felse detter vnto yow for yt As for the cleanelines off my termes which I vse they are not so foule as the thinges wherunto they are applied and the prophet Malachy and S. Paule vsed them in honester matters then these are so that iff the phrase off the Apostles and Prophetes be manerly enoughe there is lesse godlinesse in yow which in me houe thus accused them off inciuilitie Vnto the nexte section pag. 40. I answere not To the 44. sect pag. 41. I graunt the corruptions off the churche of England to be suche that man in absteininge from the pollutions theroff owght not so seuer him selfe from those open assemblies wherein the eternall worde off the Lorde God is preached and the Sacramentes administred althoughe not in that puritie which they owght to be But I saye againe that the name off conuenticles is to light and conteÌ„ptuous for those meetiÌ„ges For here in is to be coÌ„sidered for what cause they departed Which was not for the mis likinge off any thinge which Christ ordeyned but throughe the mislike off that which Antechrist had browght in not as the Anabaptistes did and the D. surmiseth they did for that they iudged them selues pure and others vnpure but that they feared that their presence where suche corruptions were should be allowance or confirmation off them not so muche forthe hatred off the estate off the churche off England as forthe loue that they had to a better nor so muche for the hatred off the Ministers whiche were vniustly set ouer them as for the loue off those which were vnlawfullie by the Bishoppes taken from them Thedorete declareth how the Catholikes which mainteined the faithe of the Nicenc councell throughe affectioÌ„ to their teachers deuided and seuered them selues into seuerall coÌ„paines will the. A. faie that all their meetinges were conuenticles iff he do he speakethe farre otherwise off them then Theodorete and yet that diuision continued 86. yeares And iff this be off no authoritie whith yow yet I would gladlie vnderstande what yow vvill answere to the sentence off M. Caluin which yow haue alleadged your selffe pag. â—1 where he saithe This honor is meete to be giueÌ„ to the vvorde off god and to the Sacramentes that vvhersoeuer vve see the vvorde off God truelie preached and the Sacraments vvithovvt superstition Ministred there vve maye conclude vvithovvt all controuersie the church to be Iff this meeting withe some disorder be the church off god how is it a conuenticle Besides that it ought to haue bene considered off yow whether they continued in that diuision and whether being taught and shewed their error they did obstinatelie perseuer according to whiche circunstance that off Augustine owght to be expounded for not euerie one which departethe for any cause whatsoeuer from that vvhiche is the churche off God by and by is to be accoumpted no membre of the churche For seing that heresie is more heynous then a scisme and yet heresie dothe not cut a man from the churche onlesse he remaine obstinate muche lesse can a scisme cause forthwith
remaine yt is more worthie to be called the signe off the sworde then the sworde Nowe yf twoo notable errors be hable to proue one trewthe he maye be thowghte to haue browghte something for the iustifyinge off this pullinge downe off the walle off the common welthe But iff it muste needes be false whiche hath nothinge to leane vppon but error I dowbte not but as the vntrewthe of yt doothe by yt selfe appeare so by this so shameles defence yt is laide more open And where he saithe that this sentence off Cyrill maie Minister occasion of quarrelinge vnto suche as be disposed I answere that there can be no peace withe this sentence but by betrayinge the trewthe and that the vntrewthe of yt is so apparante that all the patched shiftes whiche he hathe shall neuer be hable to hide yt But howsoeuer yt be saithe he this is euidente What forsooth that the quantitie off synne is not to be estemed accordinge to the externall punishmente Howe is it euidente by what worde or by what sentence yff the autoritie off the sentence fall iff it consistinge vppon two partes haue neuer a one trewe yff in that verie poincte for whiche yt is alledged yt is moste false where ys your Howe so euer yow are a daūgerous aduersarie to deale withe al for whether the profes yow t bringe be trewe or whether they be false they fall still vpon your syde But if the heynousenes of the synne be not to be estemed according to the corporall punishmente wherby is it then to be estemed accordinge saie yowe vnto the commaundemente of god accordinge to the threates of god pronounced againste yt As thowghe yt were not the commaundemente off God that there shoulde be bodylie punishemente and as thowghe the ciuill punishementes in this worlde were not parte off those threates wherwithe the lorde threatneth the breakers of his lawe Yow make therfore an opposition where none is And it is all one as if yow had saide the corne maye not be moten withe a bushel but withe a measure For as the busshell is one measure so is the corporall punishemente bothe one off the commaundementes and off the threates of god againste open sinnes Salomon prouethe Adultery to be a greater sin̄e then thefte for that where a thefe was not the adulterer was purswed vnto deathe wherbie it is manifest that She lomo was of this iudgement that in open faultes committed against a godly and honest peace the greater faultes owght to be punished with more greauous punishement And if equalitie of punishement in vnequall faultes be iniustice how myche more is yt iniuste to punishe greater faultes with les and lesser with greater punishements And therfore that nothinge shoulde be wantinge to proue the doctor a perfecte confounder and tumbler of thinges in to the heapes of disorder he dothe not onelie put no differēce betwene the thinges whiche are seperate but in those also whiche are ioyned together he imagineth suche enemitie as yf the one standinge the other coulde not remaine And as for his reason that we see smaller faultes punished withe greater tormente the questiō is not what we see doone but what owghte to be done I graūte that one and the same faulte maie be punished sharpelier in one contrie then in an other in the same contrie also sharpelier at some tyme then at an other But I denie that theroff yt followethe that in the same contrie and at the same tyme a greater faulte shoulde be punished withe lighte punishmente and a lighter withe a greate whiche thinge seinge yow excepte againste a generall rule owght to haue beene shewed And the vanitie off this startinge hoole whiche is soughte in the diuersitie of contries maye partlie appeare in that to the people off the Iewes ād in the countrie off Iewry the lorde did neuer make lawe to punishe a les faulte by a greater punishement And yet yt is certaine both that people and countrie had some thing different from others and that in gyuinge lawes to that people he had respecte boothe to them and their countrie whereby I conclude that diuersities off punishementes accordinge to the state off the countries may be established althowghe ther be no suche disorder committed off punishinge small faultes greuously and greuous faultes smallye And wheras he saithe that he makethe the difference off the seueritie off the lawe and lenitie off the gospell no further then in respecte off the temporall punishemente off the lawe euen that is the very poincte wherin a greate parte off the error off the Maniches doothe consiste For they were led to condemne the iustice off God vnder the olde Testamente because off the owtewarde punishementes vvhiche were exercised partly by the hande of God by iudgementes from heauen partely by the ministerie off men at the commaundemente off the lawe therfore the sauour off Manichisme is still as hoat as euer yt vvas And because I am entred into the mention off this althowghe the answerer can not hyrte off yt yet the trewthe is that euen in thes outwarde punishmentes the dispensation off God vnder the lawe is diuers from that vvhiche is vnder the gospell For vnder the scolemastershipe of the lawe as he crowned the obedience of yt for the moste parte vvithe greater aboundance off owtward blessinges then he dothe the obedience off his sainctes vnder the Gospell so did he vvithe more terrible oftener and more manifeste iudgementes reuenge the breache off yt in that time thē he dothe nowe And herein indeede is the differēce vvhiche he is gropinge a bowte but that this shoulde bringe any diuersitie in the set ād ordinarie punishemētes prescribed by the lawe I for my parte can not vnderstand The contrarie rather I can gather For euen as althowghe the lorde dothe not nowe by owtward blessinges giue so plentifull testimonie vnto the obedience off the gospell as then off the lawe yet the magistrate owghte to be as diligente to procure the Good off the churche as euer he vvas in the time off the law euen so althowghe the lorde by bodilie punishementes doothe not so seuerelie reuenge as he did then yet the magistrate maye not remitte any thinge therfore off that seueritie vvhiche he vvas vvonte to vse Nay more euen as the magistrate owghte so muche more carefully procure the owtwarde vvelfare of the churche nowe as the lorde vvithdrawethe his hande that vvaies more nowe then he did then euen so owghte he to kepe by so much a harder hande ouer the punishemente off synne now then he did then as the lorde more rarely thundereth by his Iudgements from heauen nowe then he did in the time off the lawe And surely if there euer had beene any time vvherin the magistrates svvorde mighte haue rested and rusted in the sheathe the time off the lawe of all had beene fitteste vvhen the lorde did so visiblye sit in his iudgmente seat and him selfe in proper person holde the assise and gaile deliuerie The causes off that
greatly in suspition off error It is sufficient that the prouer be off moo eies seinge better then one be trewe for the moste parte which is the nature off a prouerbe And in makinge off lawes the lawe giuer respecteth what is for the most parte expediēte and not that whiche maie be good some times For otherwise it might be saied the bishoppe shoulde not medle withe the election but his chapleine because yt may happen that he is more hable to medle in that matter then the bishoppe It is no smale owtrage yowe doe the churche off God to accounte off yt as off an ignorante multitude For onlesse yowe meane the churche when yowe saye then a thowsand other whiche be ignorant yowe speake beside the matter seing wee doe not permitte either examination or election off the ministers to euery multitude and blinde assemblie but vnto those onely whiche make an open and cleare profession off the trewthe Therefore yowre glorious and great speaches alwaies off the Bishoppes are affectioned and aspire somewhether For yf they preceded off the feare off God yt can not be but that feare of God and spirite of humilitie whiche taughte yowe to speake so of them woulde haue spoken muche more reuerently off the churche whose seruantes they owghte to be And when yow saie or that in suche matters be farr inferior to him yff yow meane ten thowsand off those whiche be off the churche the voice is straunge and needed some reasons to acquainte vs with yt especially seinge it touchethe as yowe thinke the cause But yowe wander still and the prouer be yowe confute not For let yt be that the bishope seeth more then 10000. off the churche whiche proportion beinge more vnequall then that betwene the sonne and the mone carieth withe yt a sente off the popishe insolencie admitte I saie that the bishopes eie be so good yet if the churche haue anie eie at all that beinge ioined with his will see better then his alone And that is the meaninge of the prouerbe not to compare one good eie with manie bad but to shewe that that whiche alone i◠hable to doe somewhat withe company and helpe is hable to doe it better And therfore oneles yowe will haue yowre bishoppe so full off sighte that he can leaue no thinge vnseene and to haue receiued the spirite withowt measure which is onely proper vnto our sauiour Christe yowe haue yet browghte nothinge to shewe why he owghte not to haue the assistaunce off others in the examination off the minister S. Paule refusethe not to learne of the churche off God in those thinges wherin he wente as farr beionde the bishope as any bishope can goe beionde the simplest of his diocese Apollos was instructed and tawghte of a powre handycraftes man and his wiffe In the counsell of Nice a simple man and one that knewe nothinge but Iesus Christe bothe ouerturned ād turned a Philosopher whome all the 318. Bishopes coulde not moue bothe S. Paule and Apollos and the 318. Bishopes were off Singuler knowledge in those thinges wherin they were aided and desired to be aided off those which were a great deale inferior vnto them What honie haue our bishoppes eaten off that they can see so clearly into the fitnes off a minister that the churche off God can not bothe see that whiche they see and that also whiche they haue ouerseene Belike yt is because our bishopes are more sharper of Sighte then euer any were and our churches more ignorante then any haue bene before And if the churches were tawghte of them wherein they are for the moste parte smalliest beholdinge vnto them as the plentifull knowledge of the churche shoulde haue bene a seale of their aboundance so what soeuer is saide off the ignorance argueth nowe the wante of their knowledge and in the ende retourneth to the weight of their condemnation Which yff it were well considered of him yt semeth that for the ialousie he hathe ouer the estate of a Lorde Bishope he woulde haue spoken more reuerently off the churche Wheras yowe say that offices off greatest charge are onely in the Princes choise Still yowe confute your shadowe for I speake off those elections wherin diuers haue interest sainge that yt seldome commeth to passe that vppon one mans reporte off his habilitie vvhich is to be chosen all the reste vvhich haue interest in that election vvill giue theyr voices What worde is here which giueth occasion to speake off the princes elections which are made by her selfe alone yowe haue therfore picked a quarel to speake off the welbestowing of offices onles yt shoulde be some profit vnto yowr selfe which yow imagined might come by sprinckling off thes faire wordes I see no ende of yt sure I am yt is no answere vnto that which yt pretendeth For my parte I will not contrary that yow speake of the good bestowing off the offices by the prince And I am well assured that some of them be bestowed of moste worthye men But yt is good for princes to haue as it were eares off horne againste suche sweete songes as these be and notwithstanding them to stire vpp them selues to greater warenes in the bestowing off their offices Therefore to let passe the offices off charge in the com̄on wealth for the Ecclesiasticall charges which her maiestie bestoweth althowghe they be off the greateste porte yet they will appeare not off the greatest charge vnlesse yow meane charge actiuely that is to saye great charge and vnprofitable burden vnto the churche not bearinge the churche but borne of yt euen almoste to the breakinge off her backe And those also as I thinke are not chosen off the prince alone but named onlie and chosen off the canons off that sea wheroff he is to be appointed bishoppe and confirmed off the Archbishoppe But lett yt be here obserued that Maister D. seemeth by affirmation off this thing although falsely without saying any thing against yt to gïue the election off the bishop onely vnto the Prince whiche if he maie doe in the bishopes whiche he taketh head ministers muche more maie he doe it in the other ecclesiasticall orders which he accounteth vnder the bishope here first I woulde knowe wether he will stande to this or no or whether hauing nothinge to answere he vsed this for a shifte Then whether the Bishopes will take in good parte this translatiō of the churche righte into the handes of the ciuil magistrate ād whether for there tēporalties as it wer for a messe of rise potage they will suffer the churches inheritaunce to be thus riotowsly alienated to be offered where yt is not asked to be geuen where it is not receiued And iff they be contente to parte from this iff need be that they maie kepe thother or be contente that maister D. forrewarde off his proctorshipp shoulde haue the disposing off it at his pleasure then I shall haue something more to saie in this behalfe The election off ministers committed
Euangelists more to these then to those Nowe therefore forsomuch as yt ys manifest by the subscription of S. Pauls epistels that he writing did the office of an Apostle it is also cleare that both S. Mathew and Iohn being Apostels in writing the storie off the Gospell did the same and that the committing off the Gospell to writing was not the proper difference off any speciall office but according to thoccasions offered and mouing of the holy spirit off God commen to other functions off that time And as the Pastors off our time which both preach and write differ not in ministerie from those which preach onely and are oftentimes more excellent pastors then they so the wâ—sting off Saint Iohn and Mathew being Apostels off Saint Lucke and Marck Euangelistes might paraduenture make them more excellent Apostels or Euangelistes then those which wrote not but to chaunge their ministerie it could not Last off all off this answer followeth thabsurditie before noted that one man at the same time should be first and second before and behinde himselfe That an Euangelist at one time may be a bishop at an other maketh litle for the D. considering that we shewe that Timothe was euen then at Ephesus an Euangelist when he supposeth hym to haue bene bishop Howbeit it is vnlike that they which were ordeined Euangelistes and set in higher degree aboue the Pastor were without their fault thrust downe vnto the order of Bishops Men nowe a daies peraduenture may chuse to an office off charge one whom vppon better triall as not altogether sufficient they may cause to rise out off his chaire and sit in a lower place but in the Apostels ordinatioÌ„ especially of Timo. in whom they were directed by the voice off God it could by no meanes comme to passe This being vntrue in the Euangelists cast down to thoffice off bishops ys yet more vntollerable in the Apostels For they are by this meanes not let but cast headlong downe from the highest staier in the ministerie vnto the lowest almost yea by the D. saying which maketh the Pastor and the Doctor all one euen vnto the lowest But it can not be that they which were appointed by the voice off Christe immediatly to the Apostelship can ether off theyr owne or any other autoritie in yearth be put from that ministerie And therefore our men doo substantially dispute against the Papistes which would haue Peter bishop of Rome for that being ordeined an Apostel he could not betake him vnto thoffice off a bishop which the Answ with diuers other groundes would to mainteine his phantasies gladly shake The reason pretended out off Zuing. for that they abode in one place yf it be his is vnsufficient For to omit that it is easy to shew that Iames immediatly after he was ordeined to the Apostelship at thascension off our Sauiour exercised his charge in one place namely Ierusalem during his whole life whereby should follow that he was neuer any Apostell and to let passe that Eusebius citeth out off Clement that all the Apostels remained by the space off xij yeares in Ierusalem after our Sauiour Christes ascension whereby they all should be bishops during that time to say nothing also off Saint Paule which teaching at Rome and there looking to end his life eueÌ„ from thence writeth him self an Apostle aÌ„d not a bishop I say to let all this passe which notwithstaÌ„ding casteth downe this opinioÌ„ the Ans must know that thabiding long in one place doth not make a bishop differ froÌ„ an Apostel but the necessitie and bond to abide in one place by reason of his particular function Which when it nether can be shewed off any Apostel and is as hath bene shewed directly contrary to his function yt can not be that the abode in one place should proue a chaunge off the Apostelship into the function off a bishop Whereby is also answered the last reason off the D. that Tim. was bishop becawse he retourning to Ephesus died there For yf that were graunted what reason is there that whereas by the biscours off the scriptures before alledged it appeareth Timothe tawght in diuers churches he should be saide bishop off Ephesus becawse that was the last church he instructed why not off the first or second as well as off the last it is all one as yf a man being a straunger in diuers places should be saide to be Cytisen of that were he laieth his bones Wherein the D. againe approcheth vnto the absurditie off the Papistes which against that the Protestantes alledge that Peter is saide off writers as well bishop off Alexandria and Antioche as off Rome answer that the differeÌ„ce is great because he died at Rome Nether helpeth it him any thing which he alledgeth in an other place out of Cal. that Tychicus was sent to supplie Timothies absence For beside that the Apostle doth not goe so far and whatsoeuer can be saide in that point is coniecturall Calu. wordes do not necessarily enforce a deputie considering that absence may after a sort be supplied by a successour And if beside the first ordination off Timoth. vnto the function off an Euangelist which is vnlimited we will consider the manner off his embassage towardes the Ephes there can nothing les be gathered then this that Timothe was off Saint Paul instituted bishop off Ephesus whereby he should need a deputy For in that he sent him desyring him to tary for him there he declareth that he was not sent to remaine alwaies but for a tyme But if the Answ take exception that I haue found out this newe translation to make the place serue for my turne fyrst I trust that those which haue still in the greek will easly graunt that the word will bear this sense then it hath some confirmacion of that which Saint Paul writeth off diligence to be vsed in his caling there vntill his coÌ„ming Which word vntill although not alwaies yet for the most part maketh an eÌ„d of that whereunto it is applied Last off all it appeareth by Augustin which vseth this translation that yt was off auncient tyme receiued which testimonie off antiquitie cast in when the skoles are euen on both sides may cary it away Thus I leaue it to the Iudgement off the indifferent reader what truth it hath that the Answ affirmeth of Timothes being bishop at Ephesus I returne back to the generall treatise off the Euangelist Where I shew that if there vvere Euangelistes yet the bishops could not ordein theÌ„ being their inferiors he answereth that yt can not be proued that an Euangelist is of higher degree theÌ„ a bishop Yf O. Paules autoritie be not sufficient which setting the ministries off the word so precisely in order preferreth the Euangelist and Prophet vnto the Pastor or bishop nor the Iudgement off writers whereoff although some make an Euangelist next in honor vnto an Apostle some the Prophet yet both sortes prefer the
ouer his second and third instructions and admonitions c. why may be not the first So it may come to passe which he deniing in vvordes doth in deed confirme that a Pastor may doo all by deputy That he alledgeth off God directing the preacher in his wordes and matter tendeth to Anabaptisme For aswell may it be alledged to proue that the Pastor may preach without study as withowt knowledge of the estate of his people as a meanes to direct both his wordes and matter to the most profit of his hearers Where he saith a discrete preacher will so temper his matter as he may profit all and hurt none Yf he had tould vs how and off what droges tha◠receipt is made which is fit at all times in all places I should better haue knowen what to haue answered In the mean season he is cleane beside the question vvhich is not whether a man may profit in preaching to the people whose estate he knoweth not but whether he profiteth more that knoweth yt He that casteth blindefold may hit the mark but no wise man will lay any thing on his head The reasons I brought to proue that the want off knowing the estate may ether hinder the fruit or gyue occasion off that daunger vvhich by knowing it might be auoided are for the moste part vntowched Heere his memory serueth him not for any place owt of the law which proueth continuall residence off the Pastor I will let passe the howses built rownd abowt and ioyning to the temple vvhich being doon off Salomon as was the rest off the building according to the vvord of God might declare how neer their charges the lord vvill haue the Ministers off the church Likewise I will not presse the example which is alledged off Ely sitting at the dore of the Tabernable to espy the manners and answer the doubtes off those vvhich entred I vvill content my selff vvith the Apostel the best expounder off the law vvho setting forth the Priestes function by that part off it vvhich consisted in sacrifices vseth a word off great strenght to binde them to a continuall residence and signifieth in effect a continuall sitting at their charge Now considering that the Pastors diligence is the same in his church that theirs was in their charge continuall presence being required off them the same or greater rather if greater can be is required off the pastor as he which hath greater trust committed vnto him That which is spoken off diuers beside the Pastor able to dissolue doubtes which arise not to meddle vvith the truth thereof nor to stay in the great giftes required in one that should comfort him that is cast downe whom the scripture affirmeth to be so care that a man shall skarce finde one amongest a thowsand I answer that it helpeth not not onely becawse they hanging of their Pastor know not to whom to haue recourse but also considering that the dissoluing off the doubt or comfort according to the necessity off the person dependeth not off knowledge onely but vppon the blessing which the Lord giueth that being therefore greater and more aboundant when yt is doon by the instrument vvhich the Lord hath sanctified for that pourpose yt followeth that if there vvere such supplies as he speaketh of yet the Pastors presence is necessary And therefore yt helpeth him not which he alledgeth afterward owt off the Coloss that they should admonish one an other in psalmes c. but maketh against him considering that if particular persons haue a duty off admonishing those that are fallen the Pastor hath much more And if the lord will not spare the meanes off the admonition off a priuate man for restoring off hym that is fallen he vvill much lesse spare the mynistery off the Pastor That which he often repeteth of help by reading off the scriptures is not to the pourpose For if the help of the Pastor be not requisite when the sheep are particularly stricken off the Lord there ys no necessary vse off hym at all And where the Lorde hath prouided resistance agaynst tentation not onely by reading but also and that especially by the lyuely voice off the Mynister what is els to betray the sheep vnto the woulf yf this be not to leaue them destitute off the moste principall meanes off their defense beside that the place off Tymothe 2. 3. is abused whilest he draweth those thinges to priuate men vvhich the Apostle speaketh off the Mynister off the word vvhom he calleth the man off God as the manner of the scripture is to call the Prophetes in which respect Saint Paul so calleth Timothe in an other place Nether dothe it belong vnto priuate persones to teach and to confute false doctrine which the Apostle sheweth to be a part off those good workes which scripture storeth that man off God with To the next diuision he answereth nothing but yet filleth vp the place as is there to be seen To that out off the Apostle and our Sauiour Christ off the Pastors presence that in going before his flock he might serue for a patron off good vvoockes he answereth that our Sauiour Christ and Sainct Paul serue for examples to those which neuer saw them and with whom they were not continually Albeit the light off their example shining so cleare might be seen off those which were far of yet the same followeth not in the pastors vvhose light is a great deal dim̄er Likewise the pastor being notas our S. Christ and S. Paul lightes off the world but off those howses ouer vvhich they are set ought to be placed vvhere they may giue most light vnto them Cōsidering that it is vnmeet not onely to put the light vnder a bushell vvhere it is altogether vnprofitable but also vnder the table vvhere notwithstanding it may giue some comfortable remedy against the darcknes Therefore forsomuch as the example that may be both seen and heard hath more force to conforme the followers vnto yt then that which is onely heard the reason remaineth still vnanswered seing the question is not onely how he may serue for example but how he may doo yt to their moste aduantage To that of the restreint of Pastors to their proper flockes he answereth he wrote not to Pastors onely but to all in generall that haue the name off Elders his reason therof that Peter saith he was also an elder is senseles and hath no māner of tast I vvill not stick to cōfesse that S. Peter vvrote in those wordes to other Elders then the Pastors yet that he vvrote to them onely that vveretied to particular congregacions which mainteineth the reply yt ys manifest by the vvordes alledged owt of S. Peter Wherein yf I haue brought the right sense he owght to haue rested els to haue confuted thereasons wherewith that translation is vvarranted and the other vvhich he setteth downe remoued and not thus cōfusedly to make a mashe of all And it auaileth him
I will God willing shew in place how the Nicene and Antiochen Metrapolitane haue beside the name almost nothing in commen with our Archbishops Here will be no confession yt was not enowghe for the Answ before to alledge thes forged canons withowt correction yea with commendation but euen now also detected rather then he will yeald to the trwth the commeÌ„ ennemy must haue the aduantage He will not forsooth greatly sticke in the defense of thes canons then he will not giue them quite ouer There is no smale controuersie he saith abowte the number of canons of this councell and a litle after there is great difference in writers for the number of the canons Let him name one Papistes excepted that euer moued controuersie abowte this number of 70 and 80. canons which he talketh off Athanasius in an Epistle that he as some thincke writeth c. what some are those Pighius Hosius Harding and their likes and they doo but say yt for that they did thincke so there being nether coulor nor shadow off trwth in that so kold a deuise yt is hardly to be thowght He saith after he hath doone nothing straunge in alledging thes canons I graunte for he hath those spoken of before to kepe him companie And in the next diui to make vp the matter he alledged not those canons as the vndowbted canons of the councell off Nice but as probable Is it in deed probable that there was such filthe in the church in the time of the Nicene councell as those canons you alledged make mencion of The reasons wherby he would bring some credit vnto thes canons are to light For where he reckeneth vp certeine thinges found in other writers not conteined in those canons he should haue knowen that there might be other thinges handled in that councell which vvere not browght into canons For example that which he reciteth owte off Ambrose towching the second mariage off the clerckes was talked on in the councell as I haue shewed before but yet there was no canon made off yt as may appeare by the stories before alledged For yt was browght in not as a thing wherof they would consult but alledged as a reason by Paphnutius to bar that which they would otherwise haue decreed As for the councell off Arles yt speaketh not off the councell off Nice but onely off a great Synode and to restreigne that to that councell is but a frierly note which the gatherer off the councels maketh to get some credite to those 70. canons which the Ans would thruste vppon vs There were thinges alledged in the councell which those nigh the times wherin yt was holden might come to the knowledge off by reporte off those present at the councell which make nothing for profe off a greater number off canons â–ª For it is not like that the Canons of the Nicene councell wheroff euery Bishop throwgh the world as the Bishop off Salisbury proueth had a copie were loste And if there were suche a nomber as he woulde haue vs belieue yet when the auncient writers which folowe so nere the councell or liued in that time could not come to the knowledge off them ys it like that this vpstarte not led vvith any desyre off searche off antiquitie but as appeareth with a deuelishe appetite of aduancing the seate off Antechriste should discouer suche a hoord of Canons But if this new recorder seeme vnto you to haue browghte the other canons to light then belike he hath those yow cite owt off the Councell off Arles off Ierome and Ambrose if not wherin I refer the reader vnto the Canons not hauing the booke then yt might haue bene argumente that those canons came not owt of any store howse off learned monumentes but owt of his one forge Yow saie yow agree with the bishop off Salisbury in his reply againste Harding touching the canon he alledgeth The trwth is that you haue done the beste yow can to ouerthrowt the whole defense off the bishop in that behalfe vvhich standeth in profe that those be counter faicte and that there were no other canons off the Nicene councell then are commonly extant And where yow say Hardinges canon muste needes be counterfaict becawse yt is contrary to the canons off that councell but that which you haue alledged and in those poinctes which you haue alledged them to be of the same substance the. 6. and 7. firste those newe canons being off one litter yf you giue credite to one yow can not take yt away altogether from the rest Secondly all those canons vvhich are not contrary to any thing determined in the councell off Nice haue by this answer gotten that credit which the autoritie and name of the Nicene councell can giue them So that a nomber off wicked thinges which the Councell off Nice spake not againste conteined vvithin thes canons are commenced by the Ans for decrees off the great Nicene Councell which were long after decreed in the Popes kitchin Thirdly where he saith the 25. 26. 27. differ from the 6. and 7. but in number and not in substance beside that he taketh still for graunted vvhich he should proue he imagineth all those learned fathers of that Councell desâ—â—â—ute of iudgement and commen sense which in setting downe one and the self same canon fowre times might worthely haue bene esteemed as bablyng dyuines as Batâ—us a Pocte And if the Councell had bene so grosly ouerseen yet how cometh yt to passe that that escaped the abridgers Which are said for shortnes sake to haue browghte the 80 Canons into 70. Laste of al to make this aÌ„swer good the reader must belieue 〈◊〉 onely that some of thes canoÌ„s which this forger hath added be true and some false but for as much as in the CanoÌ„s alledged the D. nowe seeth that all in them coÌ„teined can not befathered of the Nicene councell that in the same canon one peece is trwly and another falsly fathered As if we should not onely not take theÌ„ for bretherne which were begotten of one father but in one and the same child to esteme that the head and the foote is base and the armes and legges with the reste off the body begotten in lawfull matrimony Thus yt cometh to passe that as the deformitie off the visadge is not helped but made worse by peinting so the D. faulte which mighte haue had some excuse in that he was abused by this vaine defence is inexcusable Where vppon I will leaue to the reader which foloweth in the nexte diuisi whether vppon lighte credit vnto some dissembling papistes he receiued thes thinges with owte examination and vvhether in avoiding that he maketh him selfe giltie off a greater faulte Where haue I refused ambrose for an historicall witnes perteineth this to the story whether an Archbishop be profitable for the church or no whether he were or no perteineth but whether meet or vnmeet is vvithowt the boundes off story Yow had set downe that Ambrose alowed
much a minister bestowethe in a vocation which is not his so muche he leaueth his owne and therby manifest that in altering the wordes I kepte the sense And so yt still fallethowte that my falsifying which the Answ penne doothe so willingly runne vpon is nether with any aduantage to my cause nor disaduantage vnto his The two nexte sections I let passe as hauing no matter off answer What attendance the prelatship off the Garter requireth and what absence from a Bishops charge being a thinge in the knowledge off all I leaue whether he hathe manifestly peruerted the wordes off the Admonition which here he denieth the bookes off bothe sydes are vvitnes His slaunders first we take a waie the princes authoritie ouer ecclesiasticall persons then we woulde giue to vnderstande that he maketh yt in her maiestyes power to minister the worde and Sacramentes still confirme his shameles impudencie of the one there is no syllable that can be pulled that waies The wordes of which he would vvreste the other be yt is not lavvfull to take those vvhich god hathe appointed to the mynistry to applie to other vses there mentioned Which because yt falleth into the question off residence before handled and into that bearing cyuill office by the Ecclesiasticall person herafter God willing to be disputed the resolution ys to be taken from those places Where in the laste dyuision he calleth vppon my answer to the tytles off Lordes grace c. beside that he hathe nothing but bare sayinges withowte shewinge forthe any matter he hathe answer Thus after large promises off shewing the greate antiquitie off thes names that they were not onely in the Councell off Nice but are manifestly to be founde in all stories and writers before the councell off Nice after highe wordes againste those which denie the pretended antiquitie after rifling and ruffling vp euerie darcke corner where thes greate and glorious names might be hidden after hell yt self hath bene moued and sommoned to witnes of this antiquitie yt is manifest that thes names nor no one of them hathe hetherto bene shewed in any one Councell writer or storie before the Councell of Nice and then onely the name Metropolitane which by the Answ owne account was abowt the yeare 330. yt ys manifest also that the names Archbishop archdeacon Primate c. be not shewed owte off any ether Councell storie c. before Epiphanius time vvhich vvas aboute the yeare 380. and so manifeste that thes names being not founde in moste aunciente monumentes could not haue their allowance what approbacion they haue had sythens they came into the church I leaue yt to be estemed partly off that which hathe bene and partly off that which shall be God willing alledged â–ª being bent as well against the office as name off archbishop Which I therfore forbeare to set downe here leste I shoulde be compelled to repeate them againe Caput 3 Diuis 1. THat the reader maie haue clearer light to iudge of our writinges on both sydes in the rest off this controuersie and that we may be better furnished of weapons againste this greate leuie off pretended autorities two questions seeme necessarie to be decided before we come vnto them The one whether the worde off God hathe ordeined that in euery seuerall congreation there shoulde be a bishop which the Answ dothe flatly denie and further saith yt appeareth owte off certeine ecclesiasticall writers and the exampels off Timothe and Titus that the Apostels appointed bishops onely in principal townes and cities The other is whether there were allowed in one citie 2. or moe bishops which likewise he flatly denieth can be shewed to haue bene from Christâ—â— time and that the whole practise off the prymitiue churche is againste yt Yf thes thinges be shewed to haue bene ordeined off the Apostels yt muste folowe that this institution off God banished by Satan owght to be called home an that all autoritie off men and coustome exalted againste this must yealde theÌ„ selues prisoners Likewise if these be shewed the trwthe of expositioÌ„ of the testimonies of the moste aunciente writers shall better appeare vvherby we haue shute the bishoplike autoritie in the circuite aÌ„d roundell of one church which the Ans would haue extended vnto a realme or diocese And so shall come to pas that they which hauing all their senses possessed of the coustome of thes later and corrupter times when they reade or heare off a bishop in the scripture or in the moste auncieÌ„te writers conceiue forthwith a bishop of the same mould that ours be shall a greate deale easelier correcte their error For if a bishop in the Apostels time and off their institution was the bishop off one churche onelie by all likelihood those times which folowed nexte after them kepte them neerest vnto that image whervpon will fall owte that this vsurped autoritie of bishops ouer their fellow ministers did by litle and litle encrease according to the measure of time further from that wherin thapostels liued and nearer vnto that wherin Antichrist was fully setled which thinges although they haue light enough in them selues yet to cleare this matter better there shall be God willing set downe certein testimonies of the most auncient times wherby as by certein traces the truth off thes thinges may be easelier found owt The first that euery particular church should haue her bishhop is manifest by Paul to Timothe For seing the description of a bishop which he gyueth doth agree vnto the minister of euery congregacion and nothing there required in the one which is not in the other it followeth that the minister off euery congregacion is the bishop theroff For the description agreing with euery of them the thinges described must likewise Secondly onles he doo by this description off the bishop set forth the nature off euery minister of the word in his congregation in describing the offices off the churche he hath left owt the principalest membres and was more carefull in describing the Deacons ministerie not occupied in the vvord then the preaching ministeries but that is absurd yt must follow that he vnderstood them by the name off bishop Furthermore S. Paules bishop was appointed to the same place wherunto his Deacons but his Deacons were assigned to a particular congregation as appeareth both by the vse of the scriptures aÌ„d also by that after this corruption entred that euery church had not her bishop yet it had her Deacons as is to be seen by that alledged of the Deacons off the churches off Mariotes S. Paul also there assigning the charge and care of the bishop ouer the church of God must ether gyue him charge ouer the whole bodie of the catholike church or ouer one particular congregation or of the faithfull companie of one howse but he extendeth not his charge ouer all the Catholike church for that were to make a Pope not a bishop nor restraineth him to the faithfull of one
prophanacion yt was of the giftes of God no man of any iudgement in the worde of God can be ignorante For semeth it a meete thing that for the blessing off God gyuen vnto their preaching they shoulde be made rulers off all those peoples which they gained And what differeth this from symonie but that as one selleth the giftes off the holy goste for monie so this made march andrise off them for honor and money both And verely hauing before a competente stocke in this poincte they did not so much get disciples vnto Christe as to them selues nor so much enlarge his kingdome as their owne not doo thoffice of pastors as of hirelinges and stâ—pendarie souldiers bente vpon the spoile Another cause off this scarcitie was that as they prouided that there should be no bishops where were none before so they decred that in dioceses where there were if after the deathe of the bishop the people of that church had rather yelde them selues subiecte vnto another bishop then chuse a newe that it shoulde be lawfull for them so to doo And theruppon yt is very like that diuers churches when good bishops beganne to be rarer then wedges of golde seing any one which behaued him selfe more tolerably yelded them selues vnto him Not muche vnlike those times off the Lordes indignacion which the Prophete speaketh of wherin a nomber of weomen laide holde off one man Beside that it is not vnlike but the stately pompe off bishops hauinge taken deepe roote the people did not vnwillingly quite the estate of a bishop and as off an euill neighbor and one which laie to heauy vpon them were glad to be rid off him yt might be also the peoples faulte which as our experience teachethe to muche rather then they woulde beat the charge of mainteining a sufficiente mynistrie off their owne were contente to yelde vp their priuiledge off hauing a bishop to receiue with abatement off their charges a mynistrie they cared not what Laste of all when Sathan had lifted vp the sonne of perdition into his feare and had made a full conqueste off all synceritie off religion yt was flatly decreed that yt should not be lawfull to ordeine any Bishop ether in villages or small cytie leste throwghe the multitude bishops should waxe vile as I haue alledged in the former booke Wherupon cometh here to be considered what ys answered that I be not coÌ„pelled there to renewe this question againe His answer is that I haue falstfied the place that I haue not redd the Epistle that yf I had hauing anie modestie I would neuer haue so written To let the reste goo and withal his vnworthy reproche so often repeated for saying Boniface to Zacharie in steade off Zachary to Boniface seing the quotation in the margent is right I say to let thes goe consider wherin I haue vsed falshoode Yâ— ys firste assigned in that where the wordes off the Epistle are leste the name off a Bishop shoulde vvax vile I saide leste they shoulde vvaxe vile throvvghe the multitude If I haue falsified in adding throvvgh the multitude what truth or faithe hathe the Answerer vsed in adding becawse the contemptiblenes off the place often tymes bringeth contempte off the person This addicion off wordes ys greater then mine and no more founde in the Epistle then mine whose interpretacion is more aggreable vnto the minde off the writer his that the daunger off contempte was conceiued by reason off the place ormine that it was by reason off the multitude let the reader iudge Which that he may he may the easelier doo let it be considered what Ierome writeth where speaking off the pride off the Deacons he assigneth the cawse that they were so much set by to haue bene their fewnes and the cawse why the Elders were so light made of becawse they were moe in nomber For the aboundance of any commoditie doth so commenly bring downe the price of it that there is no nation I thinck where it is not in prouerb that rare thinges are greatly esteemed as contrariwise thinges off excellent and necessarie vse are throwgh their multitude called vile Which is declared there by example of Poley a commen and vile herb in those countreis and yet for the rarenes more esteemed in India then pepper Of the other side where he saith they were not placed in villages â–ª or small cities because the smallnes of the place doth make the person often times contemned in steed that it is meet the bishop should be reuerenced by that reason there should be no minister of the word in those places at all For it behoueth that the minister also haue the reuerence of his people which becommeth the embassadour and steward off Christ and if the bishop looke for more he pricketh at a further marck then euer the word off God set vp But how cometh it to passe that the bishop off Canturbery is more esteemed then the bishop off London and he off Winchester then he off Norwich if the place cawse the estimacion of the Bishop When gentlemen and noblemen build their howses more commenly in small townes and more solitary places doth the Ans thinck that they lose any of their estimacion therby Also by this reason it owght to be forbidden that Iustices off Peace and Quorum shoulde dwell in countrey townes and commaunded to dwell onely in great townes lest they be contemned off the people But beside that it is contrary to the wisdome of God in the scripture the Paganes which neuer saw that light could tell that the places doo not make men honorable but men the places And Ierome saith the bishop off an obscure citie hath as much autoritie as he off the most famous If the D. aÌ„swer that it owght to be so but it is not throwgh the folie off certein yf that were graunted yet yt is vnmeet that the ministrie should be according to the euill disposition off certein for then forsomuch as yowth is subiect to contempt it shoulde be vnmeet to choose a young man of what giftes soeuer vnto the ministerie Thother falshoode the Ans chargeth me with is for that I gather off this canon that in times paste there were bishops in seuerall parishes and small townes when there was no bishop before off anie parishe yt semeth that his vnderstanding can not be so simple but that he maie perceiue if there were no other proofe that those canones made so often for the forbidding of ordeining of bishops in villages and small cities proceeded theroff that the churches in villages and small cyties had their bishops as other places had For to what pourpose doo they defende yt but that yt was vsed And wherfore was that lawe so often renewed vnles there had bene resistance and vnles the churches refused to subiecte themselues to suche a wicked order yf men make not lawes but vpoÌ„ erperience of thinges which they mislike how muche les doo they renew them againe and againe