vve haue no Elderâ—… as yet GREEN The Church is neuer without the power to excommunicate 5 EGER. Our Pastors only now vvant some Censurers BAR. The leaâ—…t member of the Church that is a CoÌ„municant hath as much interest in all the censures of the Church as the Pastor haue equall power according to the rules of the word to censure the Pastor for errour or transgression as the Pastor hath to â—…ensure them To M r. EGERTON delyuer this Almightie Gâ—…d vvhose Spirit is one and ioyneth in one all his elect vâ—…ssells in his good tyme bringing them forth from darkâ—…es to light gyâ—…e you vs â—…o be of one mynde of one iudgment in the trueth to the glory of his owne name our reioycing in his mereyes for euer and the present conuerâ—…ion of manie to the â—…bedience of CHRIST SEing it hath pleased God after our long imprisonment once of late to send you vnto vs by what meanes or to what further purpose we yet know not to giue vs a beginning â—…n entrance into the discussing of his trueth by some kinde of conference which because it was not with that harmonye that it may please God to effect if your heart as ours be set to know his will and to proceede by one rule euen the rule of his authenticall TestameÌ„t We are moued to write vnto you rather by your modest honest sober behauiour shewed to vs the Lords most vnworthie witnesses then for anie procurement of peace to our selues For most of all we desire your saluation and with all the good of manie by the measure of spirituall guyftes gyuen you and as we trust you will bestow them to the furtherance of his Church Yet in your last conference to speake the trueth we found your spirit in no louing consent to the trueth but dangerouslie corrupted or at least set to oppose with poysoned distinctions by vaine philosophie yea against that trueth your self would not insist to denie whether to trye our streÌ„gth or to abuse the hearers or for endangering your self Yet against al these PAVL saith we cannot anie thing against the truth but for the truth We haue since often merueiled we heard no more from you or of your estate which theÌ„ was made manifest to be without promise whiles you exercise a ministeriall function vnder ANTICHRIST in a false office vnto a confuse assembliâ—… of all sorts of people one with the world Wherevppon hearing no further yet of you we thought it good in tender care of your saluation for the aduancement of the Lords trueth to shew you so neere as our fraile memories could collect the summe of such Arguments or Positions Answers as passed betwene vs hauing set downe nothing but that wherof we haue the positioÌ„s to shew vnder wryting at that present honest witnesses to testifie our vprightnes herein And least you should otherwise conceiue that we should some wayes iniurie you we haue sent you a Copie to pervse and if you make yet anie other aâ—…swere to our Assertions then there is conteyned we freely gyue you libertie so to do But cheiflie the end of our wryting is to stirr you vp not to leane the matter thus coÌ„sidering the seriousnes therof but eyther yeild thervnto or procure some more large and free place time to make our mynds plaine Faith open one to another that the truth may appeare and they that depart from the same be knowen And the same vve vvryte vnto you herein we hereby offer to all the rest of your fellow Ministers our hearts as the Lord knoweth being opeÌ„ to all men to their good the glory of our GOD the father of our Lord IESVS CHRIST only the Lord delyuer vs from vnreasonable men and suppresse all his aduersaries and opposers against his glorious truth Amen Most desirous of your fellowship in the Faith of Christ. HENRY BARROVV IHON GREENVVOOD To M r. BARROVV and M r. GREENVVOOD The Lord Iesus open oâ—…r eyes to â—…ee the truth sanctifie our tongues 〈◊〉 penâ—…es to declare the same Ireceyued a Letter from you also a Conference in writing Touching your Letter this I answere First for those poysoned distinctions you mentioÌ„ if you had named them I hope no poyson would haue appeared in them except it had come from the contagion of your owne Spirits Secondly for vaine Philosophie if you meane therby for other I remember none that help which GOD hath lent vs by Logicke to reason breiflie and plainly you do but as Brownâ—… hath done whose braynlesse reasons to proâ—…e the vanâ—…tie therof are not only easie to be answered by other men but also abundantly confuted by his owne practise both in speach writing Touching your feined Conference this I say I finde in it some things wanting that were spoken manie things expressed that were neuer spoken no not ymagined on my behalf most things that were spoken peruerted Finally I finde it so full of partialitie so voyd of vpright true dealing and so far out of order that I haue neither leasure muchlesse anie luâ—…t to deale with it And if you shall proceede to gyue out Copies I shalbe readye to disclayme you wheresoeâ—…er I come not only for men voyde of pietie but euen of ciuile honestie also Now concerning a free conference I haue neither powre nor will to performe it my reasons I reserue 〈◊〉 further oportunitie But if you will deale with me do this send me vnder your hand some 6. or 7. or as you thinke good for the nomber of your cheif reasons whie you refuse to come to our publique assemblies breiflie plainly concluded and I will by the help of GOD as my leisure shal serue set you downe my answere in the like sort vnder my owne hand with reasons why you ought to come This course if you like I will deale with you as I may otherwise I will not meddle Written the 14. Aprill 1590. Written by him that not only desireth your good in the Lord but also is ready by anie peaceable christiaÌ„ course of proceeding to furder the same I EGERTON so I write To Mr. EGERTON MOre Grace feare of GOD vnto you This your replie vnto our Letter we haue receiued read with litle comforte perceiuing therby euen that smale sparke of hope which began to appeare in you to be vtterly extinct the bellowes burnt the drosse wil not be purged froÌ„ the siluer that there might proceed a vessell to the Fyner so that the Founder should melt in vaine where the Lord hath not made choise of the mettall Greatly sorie we are to behold your fâ—…arefull estate who not being able to approue the ministrie you exercise by the word of God yet to your owne furder iudgmeÌ„t the seducing of manie soules continue to plead for practize the same for the feare of men the loue of the world to auoide persecution submitting your self your whole church ministrie Doctrines vnto the pro
which we haue eyther falsified or peruerted least you should be taken reproued as your associate M r. SPERIN was this other daye in the exceptions he tooke both by theis written prapositions by sondry eare witnesses that were present vnto his face Yea euen of that heynous perilous PropositioÌ„ which you now so faine would call backe viz. That you had agreed amongst your selues that the Bishops be Antichristian Wherevnto though you were then enforced to yeild through the ineuitable powre of God his word wherwith you were pressed Yet since for the feare of mens faces to auoide perâ—…ecution you haue both denyed the vndoubted truth of God or that euer you spake the same coÌ„trarye to your owne coÌ„science Yea for the preseruation of your worldly eâ—…timation for this corâ—…upt dissembled peace you hold with your LL s. the Bishops you are not ashamed vnto the rest of the vituperie wherwith you haue laden vs to add theis most vnchristian vndeserued threats Namely thaâ—… you vvill disclaime vs in all places vvbersoeuer you come not only for men voide of 〈◊〉 but euen of ciuile honestie and all this without either fault of offence made you at anie time vnlesse to witnesse vnto that truth which we haue sene heard be so greiuous vnto you Alas M r. EGERTON what shall you gaine by this Suppose you to buyld or repaire your credit vppon or by the ruynes of ours Can you immagine to stay the course of that truth which God hath sent forth by so manie witnesses which heard you Or can you think by these vaine threats to stop our mouthes froÌ„ testifying or publishing this or anie other truth of our God vnto all men by all meanes We feare not the curse causeles neither shunne we the light Our ReligioÌ„ honestie we willingly submit both in this or in anie other thing we affirme or doe to the christian iudgment of all men The further you shall proceede in this intemperate vnchristiaÌ„ course the greater shalbe your owne shame iudgement when God shall returne the venome and malice of your owne tongue into your owne bosome In that you will neither meddle with the Conference past nor accept of anie to come the reasons you reseruâ—… keepe so secret are manifest vnto all men Namely because your deeds are euill and cannot abide the fierie tryall by Gods word therfore seeke you by all meanes to hide them from the light being for nothing so sorye as that you cannot call backe that which hath alreadye passed you knowing that the further you meddle with it the more you stryue the furder and faster you shal but entangle your self Wherfore with one consent you your fellow ministers studie and stryue to suppresse that truth you cannot resist But he whose eyes are like a flame of fyre shall shortly discouer your practises and fight against you with that sword of his mouth As to your offer of answere by wryting vnto 6. or 7. of our cheifest reasons whie we refuse your publick assemblies we hold it needles to trouble you with more vntill you haue answered those vnanswerable reasons brought in one sentence of our former letter vnto you against your owne counterfeiâ—… antichristian ministerie which you were sayd to haue deriued from and to exercise 1. vnder Antichrist 2. In a false office 3 to a confuse assemblie of all sorts of people All which seuerallie plainely are proued vnto you in that our conference with you All which you haue willingly balked as also denied what your self in the sayd Conference affirmed and vtterly refused all furder coÌ„ference Wherfore we cannot be induced to thinke that you haue anie meaning christianly freely to discusse theis points by wryting especyallie since you could by no meanes be drawen to wryte at our being togeather yea you were afraide to speak what truth you knew But we manifestly discerne this pretence to be but one of your sleights to vphold your crazed credit to withdraw vs the eyes of others from theis vnrecouerable breaches as though you had some better power or skill to defend your doings by writing then either you haue done or dare yeilde to do by free conference of mouth As to your disordered parish asseÌ„blies wherein you will needs be still powred out in the error of BALAAM for wage we haue loÌ„g since prouâ—…d them wholly Antichristian by sondry reasons drawen from the descriptioÌ„ of the true established Church of CHRIST which reasons a yeare a half since were deliuered vnto some of your chief ministers whervnto we neuer yet receiued anie answere Wherfore we haue no more to say vnto you but to desire you them to looke to your estates no longer to seduce the people in the bye wayes of mens deuises to their assured destruction your owne fearefull reckoninge except God giue you repentance Which grace that you may finde we will not cease euer so long as we may to pray for you And this with vnfeyned desire of your saluation HENRY BARROVV IHON GRENEVVOOD close Prysoners in the Fleet for the testimonie of the truth of the Gospell of our Lord IESVS CHRIST to whom be glory for euer To M r. BARROVV M r. GREENVVOODE MOre truth and loue c. The question I named to my remembrance was whether yt were lawfull to come to our Church assemblies or no. But because that which you haue chosen tendeth to the same end I willingliâ—… accept yt Youâ—… Arguments are three and may be thus concluded That ministrie which is 1. Deriued from exercised vnder ANTICHRIST 2. a false Office 3. in a confused people is not lawfull But such is ours Therfore our ministerie is not lawfull For answeare wherof I denie your Assumption or minor Proposition and returne the same reasons vpon your head thus That ministerie which is 1. Deriued from exercised vnder CHRIST 2. in a true Office 3. amonge a faithfull people is lawfull but such is ours ergo Proue your Assumption I will mine In the meane time I trust myne affirmation shalbe as authenticall as yours Your Letter came the 2. of this 5. 〈◊〉 I write the 4. Valete â—…stote sani He that wisheth your conuertion I. EGERTON To M r. EGERTON GRace vnto you from the Father of lightes to see yeild vnto the truth Your Letter of the 4. of this 5. Moneth we haue receaued perceiue therby your CoÌ„trouersie touching the truth of that Brief of our conference which we sent vnto you to be ceased And nowe your speach turned backe againe to the questioÌ„ there handled amongst vs which we hoped to haue then beene thus far forth discussed decided that now you had no cause to denie or retract that which there was enforced you condâ—…scended vnto espeacially without adding anie one reason vnto your former or disprouing anie one reason brought by vs except peraduenture you would haue your owne bare affirmation be held as
first Lye you chardge vs with is that your bare affirmations are held authenticall of your auditorye Our answere is That you haue drawen an absolute Proposition from conditionall words We in our Letter reproued you for not adding Doctrine to your lypps some proofe to your assertions saying that except you would haue your owne bare affirmation to be held as authenticall with vs as it is with your miserable auditorie that haue no power or freedome publicklie to censure or reproue anie false Doctrine that you publickly delyuer c. Here is in these words no vntruth be your Doctrines neuer so blasphemous pernitious your Church hath no power presently publickly to cēsure you or them but must ioyne vnto you still in prayer Sacraments vntill their Lord Ordinarie redresse the matter or if he will not they must then swallow all vp how impious soeuer they be Lo◅ke for this lawe in the booke of your aduertisments in the Articles for doctrine preaching Now howe far your Doctrines are authenticall to that woefull people that haue no power in themselues to call them into question to examin trye or censure thē iudge you Yea how Authenticall you would haue your owne bare affirmations esteemed let these your 3. letters shew where you haue not added one reason to proue or disproue anie thinge you affirme or denie but your owne bare word But they must not be so with vs who meane to examin them by the Scriptures before we receiue them The word authenticall peraduenture we had not vsed had not you gyuen occasion in your former letter in these words I trust my affirmation shalbe as authenticall as yours Which presumptuous words you would not haue vsed if you had not thought well of your self and some speciall authoritie to be gyuen to your words As for vs we seeke no credit furder then we speake according to truth neither hold or would haue anie thing held authenticall besides or with the holy word of God The second lye should be that it vvas sufficiently proued in our last Conference that your BBs vvere that Antichrist 2. This we doubt not to affirme you cannot deny but your Bishopps were there proued to vsurpe both Ciuile ecclesiasticall Offices iurisdiction that they hold execute diuers ecclesiasticall Offices of your Church at one time as to be Doctors Pastors Superintendents L. Bishops L. Arch-bishops and these togeather with their Ciuile Offices being Iudges in Courtes Iustices of peace manie LL s. Palatyne all Lords of Parliament states of the land That they vsurpe exercise the whole power of the Church in making ministers in the vse of excommunicatiō hereby confounding commingling the whole order of God all the Ordinances both of Church and Common wealth inue◅t all the Ordinances of CHRIST his Testament It was there shewed and proued that they which presume into CHRISTS place vsurpe his title and offices are those An◅ichrists or that Ant◅christ and that your Bishops vsurpe CHRISTS place in that they take and holde his Bride vnto thē making the whole Church to heare their voice to beare their yoke of their antichristian burdenous tradit◅ōs that they vsurpe CHRIST his titles CHRIST being the only Lord Arch-cheif high Bishop of Bishopps to whom all Bishops shall accompt And therfore these titles are vppon them but the names of blasphemye written vppon the heads of that Beast That they vsurpe CHRISTS Offices in that they take vppon them to rule ouersee so manie Pastors Churches to walke in the middest of the 7. goldē Cādlesticks to giue lawes to the church c. To be short they were proued vnto you to be that Antichrist or those Antichrists for we hope you will not tye the title to the person of one mā only in that they change inuert yea ouerthrowe cast out al the Offices ordinacs which CHRIST hath appointed vnto his Church euē the whole ministerie Testament of CHRIST And haue in place therof brought in set vp their owne new forged antichristian ministerie of Archbishopps L. BB s. Arch-deacons Comissaries Parsons Vickers Curatts Deacons or halfe Priests euen all the horned Cleargie Romishe Officers popish Courts and innuberable enormous Canons Cōstitucōns of Antichrist As also their newe deuised publique Liturgie wherby the whole worship ministracōn of your Church yea vvherby the vvhole word of God is stinted lymited to Eaues Dayes houres to fasts feasts c. vvhat parts shredds therof they will haue read what parts suppressed cast out c. Now if all these euident concurring peremptorie marks do not manifestly proue them to be that those Antichrists euen that abhomination of desolation standing in the holy place let him that readeth consider And for your furder assurance let vs now ad vnto their barbarous hauocke their dayly beastlike crueltye tyrannie persecution blasphemie of the truth seruants of CHRIST and you may then the Lord opening the eyes of your vnderstanding euidently see them to be that monsterous Beast spoken of in the Reuelation Iudge now in your self which way you could or can with all the learning you haue or want with stand these reasons or how all the false Prophets that flowe from guarde the throne of Antichrist can finde anie phisique or Baulme for these wounds of the Beast So then your 3. 4. Lyes That it should be in effect vvholy yeilded vnto by you 4. And agreed vppo◅ a◅ongst your selues that the BBs are Antichrists We hope will not proue so incredible especially when they shalbe confirmed to your face as they were vnto your fellow M r. SPERINS by sondrye credible eare witnesses that were present if you continue so shameles to denie it V◅to your 5. Lye That you haue brokē the o◅th of y◅ur Canonicall obedience We answere that you greatly mistake the matter we neuer so sclaundered you we always thought you ouerwell obserued that vngodly oath Our words in our letter were that we neede not stand to proue that your ministerie was deriued from exercised vnder theis BB s. neither durst you stand to denie it not so much for breaking the oath of your Canonicall obedience vvhich you haue sworne vnto them as least you should therfore be called before them c. Here leauing the whole estate of the BB s. vvho were proued by vs and confessed by you to be A◅tichristes as also passing by the present estate of your owne ministerie which is deriued from exercised vnder them therfore proued vnto you to be Antichristian vnlesse yt you may belong vnto stand vnder two diuers heads and these so contrary as CHRIST ANTICHRIST But all these waightie matters you vvillingly passed bye after the maner of all timeseruing Pharises and picking a quarrell at these 3. points in your