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A12246 Paradoxes of defence wherein is proued the true grounds of fight to be in the short auncient weapons, and that the short sword hath aduantage of the long sword or long rapier. And the weakenesse and imperfection of the rapier-fights displayed. Together with an admonition to the noble, ancient, victorious, valiant, and most braue nation of Englishmen, to beware of false teachers of defence, and how they forsake their owne naturall fights: with a briefe commendation of the noble science or exercising of armes. By George Siluer Gentleman. Silver, George, fl. 1599. 1599 (1599) STC 22554; ESTC S117412 47,315 86

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PARADOXES OF DEFENCE WHEREIN IS PROVED THE TRVE grounds of Fight to be in the short auncient weapons and that the short Sword hath aduantage of the long Sword or long Rapier And the weakenesse and imperfection of the Rapier-fights displayed Together with an Admonition to the noble ancient victorious valiant and most braue nation of Englishmen to beware of false teachers of Defence and how they forsake their owne naturall fights with a briefe commendation of the noble science or exercising of Armes By George Siluer Gentleman ANCHORA SPEI LONDON Printed for Edvvard Blount 1599. HONI SOYT QVY MAL Y PENSE TO THE RIGHT HONORABLE MY SINGVLAR GOOD LORD ROBERT EARLE OF Essex and Ewe Earle Marshall of England Viscount Hereford Lord Ferrers of Chartley Bourchier and Louaine Maister of the Queenes Maiesties horse of the Ordenance Chancellor of the Vniuersitie of Cambridge Knight of the most noble order of the Garter and one of her Highnesse most honorable Priuy Counsell FENCING Right honorable in this new fangled age is like our fashions euerie daye a change resembling the Camelion who altereth himselfe into all colours saue white so Fencing changeth into all wards saue the right That it is so experience teacheth vs why it is so I doubt not but your wisedome doth conceiue There is nothing permanent that is not true what can be true that is vncertaine how can that be certaine that stands vpon vncertain grounds The mind of man a greedie hunter after truth finding the seeming truth but chaunging not alwayes one but alwayes diuerse forsakes the supposed to find out the assured certaintie and searching euery where saue where it should meetes with all saue what it would VVho seekes finds not seekes in vaine who seekes in vaine must if he wil find seeke againe and seeke he may againe and againe yet all in vaine VVho seekes not what he would as he should and where he should as in all other things Right honourable so in Fencing the mind desirous of truth hunts after it and hating falshood flies from it and therfore hauing missed it once it assayes the second time if then he thriues not he tries another way whē that hath failed he aduentures on the third if all these faile him yet he neuer faileth to chaunge his weapon his fight his ward if by any meanes he may compasse what he most affect for because men desire to find out a true defence for themselues in their fight therefore they seeke it diligently nature hauing taught vs to defend our selues and Art teaching how and because we misse it in one way we chaunge to another But though we often chop and change turne and returne from ward to ward from fight to fight in this vnconstant search yet wee neuer rest in anie and that because we neuer find the truth English maisters of defence are profitable members in the common wealth if they teach with ancient English weapons of true Defence weight and conuenient length within the compasse of the statures and strength of men to command because it maketh them safe bold valiant hardie strong and healthfull and victoriou 〈◊〉 the warres seruice of their Prince defence of their friendes and countrey But the Rapter in reason not to be taught nor suffred to be taught because it maketh men fearefull and vnsafe in single combat and weak vnseruiceable in the warres and therefore we neuer find it because we neuer seeke it in that weapon where it may be found For to seeke for a true defence in an vntrue weapon is to angle on the earth for fish and to hunt in the sea for Hares truth is ancient though it seeme an vpstart our forefathers were wise though our age account them foolish valiant though we repute them cowardes they found out the true defence for their bodies in short weapons by their wisdome they defended them selues and subdued their enemies with those weapons with their valour And Right honorable if we will haue this true Defence we must seeke it where it is in short Swords short Staues the halfe Pike Partisans Gloues or such like weapons of perfect lēgths not in long Swords long Rapiers nor frog pricking Poiniards for if there be no certain grounds for Defence why do they teach it if there be why haue they not found it Not because it is not to say so were to gainesay the truth but because it is not certaine in those weapons which they teach To proue this I haue set forth these my Paradoxes different I confesse from the maine current of our outlandish teachers but agreeing I am well assured to the truth and tending as I hope to the honor of our English nation The reason which moued me to aduenture so great a taske is the desire I haue to bring the truth to light which hath long time lyen hidden in the caue of contempt while we like degenerate sonnes haue forsaken our forefathers vertues with their weapons and haue lusted like men sicke of a strange ague after the strange vices and deuises of Italian French and Spanish Fencers litle remembring that these Apish toyes could not free Rome from Brennius sacke nor Fraunce from King Henrie the fift his conquest To this desire to find out truth the daughter of time begotten of Bellona I was also moued that by it I might remoue the great losse of our English gallants which we daily suffer by these imperfect fights wherein none vndertake the combat be his cause neuer so good his cūning neuer so much his strength and agilitie neuer so great but his vertue was tied to fortune happie man happie doale kill or be killed is the dreadfull issue of this diuellish imperfect fight If that man were now aliue which beat the Maister for the scholers fault because he had no better instructed him these Italian Fencers could not escape his censure who teach vs Offence not Defence and to fight as Diogenes scholers were taught to daunce to bring their liues to an end by Art VVas Aiax a coward because he fought with a seuen foulded Buckler or are we mad to go naked into the field to trie our fortunes not our vertues VVas Achilles a run-away who ware that well tempered armour or are we desperat who care for nothing but to fight and learn like the Pigmeys to fight with bodkins or weapons of like defence Is it valour for a man to go naked against his enemie why then did the Lacedemonians punish him as desperate whom they rewarded for his vallour with a Lawrell crowne But that which is most shamefull To this it will be obiected that in the warres we vse few Rapiers or none at all but short Swords To that I answere Those are insufficient also for that they haue no hilts whereby they are insufficient in their defence and especially for the hād which being stroken although with averie smal blow most commonly is the losse of a mā because the force of his hand
being taken from him he is neither able to defend his life nor greatly to offend his enemy and againe since the Rapier-fight hath bene taught for lacke of practise they haue lost the vse of the blow they teach mē to butcher one another here at home in peace wherewith they cannot hurt their enemies abrode in warre For your Honour well knowes that when the battels are ioyned and come to the charge there is no roome for them to drawe their Bird spits and when they haue them what can they doe with them can they pierce his Corslet with the point can they vnlace his Helmet vnbuckle his Armour hew asunder their Pikes with a Stocata a reuersa a Dritta a Stramason or other such like tēpestuous termes no these toyes are fit for children not for men for stragling boyes of the Campe to murder poultrie not for men of Honour to trie the battell with their foes Thus I haue right Honorable for the trial of the truth betweene the short Sword and the long Rapier for the sauing of the liues of our English gallants who are sent to certaine death by their vncertaine fights for abandoning of that mischieuous and imperfect weapon which serues to kill our friēds in peace but cannot much hurt our foes in warre haue I at this time giuen forth these Paradoxes to the view of the world And because I knowe such straunge opinions had need of stout defence I humbly craue your Honorable protection as one in whom the true nobility of our victorious Auncestors hath taken vp his residence It will sute to the rest of your Honours most noble cōplements to maintaine the defence of their weapons whose vertues you possesse I● agrees with your Honourable disposition to 〈◊〉 with fauour what is presented with loue It 〈◊〉 with your Lordships high authority to weigh with reason what is fit for marshall 〈◊〉 It is an vsuall point of your Honor which win●● your Lordship loue in your countrey to defend the truth in whomsoeuer and it addeth a supply to that vvhich your Lordship haue of late begun to your vnspeakeable honor and our inestimable benefite to reduce the 〈…〉 vvith hilts ouer the hands Why should we leaue the hand naked since therby our limmes liues are defended our enemies discomforted wounded and executed I see no reason but that the hand should be as well armed and prouided for as anie other part of the bodie to the Romaine discipline no longer then they might draw them vnder their armes or ouer their shoulders I call or any of these respectes I rest assured that your Lordship vvill vouchsafe to receiue vvith fauor and maintaine vvith honour these Paradoxes of mine vvhich if they be shrouded vnder so safe a shield I vvill not doubt but to maintaine vvith reason amongst the vvise and proue it by practise vpon the ignorant that there is no certaine defence in the Rapier and that there is great aduantage in the short Sword against the long Rapier or all maner of Rapiers in generall of vvhat length soeuer And that the short Staffe hath the vauntage against the long Staffe of twelue foureteene sixteene or eighteene foote long or of what length soeuer And against two men vvith their Swordes and Daggers or two Rapiers Poiniards Gantlets or each of them a case of Rapiers vvhich vvhether I can performe or not I submit for triall to your Honors martiall censure being at all times readie to make it good in vvhat maner and against vvhat man soeuer it shall stand vvith your Lordships good liking to appoint And so I humbly commend this booke to your Lordships vvisedome to peruse and your Honour to the Highest to protect in all health and happinesse novve and euer Your Honors in all dutie George Siluer AN ADMONITION TO THE NOBLE ANCIENT VICTORIOVS VALIANT AND MOST BRAVE NATION OF ENGLISHMEN GEorge Siluer hauing the perfect knowledge of all maner of weapōs and being experiēced in all maner of fights thereby perceiuing the great abuses by the Italian Teachers of Offence done vnto them the great errors inconueniences false resolutions they haue brought them into haue inforced me euen of pitie of their most lamentable wounds and slaughters as I verily thinke it my bounden dutie with all loue and humilitie to admonish them to take heed how they submit themselues into the hands of Italian teachers of Defence or straungers whatsoeuer and to beware how they forsake or suspect their owne naturall fight that they may by casting off of these Italianated weake fantasticall and most diuellish and imperfect fights and by exercising of their owne ancient weapons be restored or atchieue vnto their natural and most manly and victorious fight againe the dint and force whereof manie braue nations haue both felt and feared Our ploughmen haue mightily preuailed against them as also against Maisters of Defence both in Schooles and countries that haue taken vpon thē to stand vpon Schoole-trickes and iugling gambalds whereby it grew to a common speech among the countrie-men Bring me to a Fencer I will bring him out of his fence trickes with good downe right blowes I will make him forget his fence trickes I will warrant him I speake not against Maisters of Defence indeed they are to be honoured nor against the Science it is noble and in mine opiniō to be preferred next to Diuinitie for as Diuinitie preserueth the soule from hell and the diuell so doth this noble Science defend the bodie from wounds slaughter And moreouer the exercising of weapons putteth away aches griefes and diseases it increaseth strength and sharpneth the wits it giueth a perfect iudgement it expelleth melancholy cholericke and euill conceits it keepeth a man in breath perfect health and long life It is vnto him that hath the perfection thereof a most friendly and comfortable companion when he is alone hauing but only his weapon about him it putteth him out of all feare in the warres and places of most danger it maketh him bold hardie and valiant And for as much as this noble and most mightie nation of Englishmen of their good natures are alwayes most louing verie credulous ready to cherish protect strāgers yet that through their good natures they neuer more by strangers or false teachers may be deceiued once againe I am most humbly to admonish thē or such as shal find in themselues a disposition or desire to learne their weapons of them that from henceforth as strangers shall take vpon them to come hither to teach this noble most valiant victorious nation to fight that first before they learne of them they cause a sufficient triall of them to be made whether the excellencie of their skill be such as they professe or no the triall to be very requisite reasonable euen such as I my selfe would be contented withall if I should take vpon me to go in their countrie to teach their nation to fight And this is the
vnskilful himselfe Lastly to confirme for truth all that shal be amisse not only in this excellēt Science of Defence but in all other excellent secrets most commonly the lye beareth as good a shew of truth as truth it selfe Of the false resolutions and vaine opinions of Rapier-men and of the danger of death thereby ensuing IT is a great question especially amōgst the Rapier-men who hath the vantage of the thruster or of the warder Some hold strongly that the warder hath the vantage others say it is most certain that the thruster hath the vantage Now when two do happē to fight being both of one mind that the thruster hath the vantage they make all shift they can who shall giue the first thrust as for example two Captaines at Southampton euen as they were going to take shipping vpon the key fel at strife drew their Rapiers and presently being desperate hardie or resolute as they call it with all force and ouer great speed ran with their rapiers one at the other were both slaine Now when two of the contrary opinion shall meet and fight you shall see verie peaceable warres betweene them for they verily thinke that he that first thrusteth is in great danger of his life therefore with all speede do put themselues in ward or Stocata the surest gard of all other as Vincentio saith and therevpon they stand sure saying the one to the other thrust and thou dare and saith the other thrust and thou dare or strike or thrust and thou dare saith the other then saith the other strike or thrust and thou dare for thy life These two cunning gentlemen standing long time together vpon this worthie ward they both depart in peace according to the old prouerbe It is good sleeping in a whole skinne A gaine if two shall fight the one of opinion that he that thrusteth hath the vantage and the other of opinion that the warder hath the vantage then most commonly the thruster being valiant with all speed thrusteth home and by reason of the time and swift motion of his hand they are most commonly with the points of their rapiers or daggers or both one or both of them hurt or slaine because their spaces of defence in that kind of fight are too wide in due time to defend and the place being wonne the eye of the Patient by the swift motion of the Agents hand is deceiued Another resolution they stand sure vpon for their liues to kill their enemies in the which they are most commonly slaine themselues that is this When they find the point of their enemies rapier out of the right line they say they may boldly make home a thrust with a Passata the which they obserue and do accordingly but the other hauing a shorter time with his hand as nature manie times teacheth him sodainly turneth his wrist whereby he meeteth the other in his passage iust with the point of his rapier in the face or body And this false resolution hath cost manie a life That the cause that manie are so often slaine and manie sore hurt in fight with long Rapiers is not by reason of their dangerous thrusts nor cunningnesse of that Italienated fight but in the length and vnweildinesse thereof IT is most certaine that men may with short swords both strike thrust false and double by reason of their distance and nimblenesse thereof more dangerously then they can with long Rapiers and yet when two fight with short swordes hauing true fight there is no hurt done neither is it possible in anie reason that anie hurt should be done betwixt them of either side and this is well knowne to all such as haue the perfection of true fight By this it plainely appeareth that the cause of the great slaughter and sundrie hurts done by long Rapiers consisteth not in long Reach dangerous thrustes nor cunningnesse of the Italian fight but in the inconuenient length and vnweildinesse of their long Rapiers whereby it commonly falleth out that in all their Actions appertaining to their defence they are vnable in due time to performe and continually in danger of euerie crosse that shall happen to be made with their rapier blades which being done within the halfe rapier vnlesse both be of one mind with all speed to depart which seldome or neuer hapneth betweene men of valiant disposition it is impossible to vncrosse or get out or to auoid the stabbes of the Daggers And this hath falne out manie times amongst valiant men at those weapons Of running and standing fast in Rapier fight the runner hath the vantage IF two valiant men do fight being both cunning in running that they both vse the same at one instant their course is doubled the place is wonne of both sides and one or both of them will commonly be slaine or sore hurt and if one of them shall runne and the other stand fast vpon the Imbrocata or Stocata or howsoeuer the place wil be at one instant wonne of one side and gained of the other and one or both of them wil be hurt or slaine if both shall prese hard vpon the guard he that first thrusteth home in true place hurteth the other if both thrust together they are both hurt yet some vantage the runner hath because he is an vncertaine marke and in his motion the other is a certaine marke and in a dead motion and by reason thereof manie times the vnskilfull man taketh vantage he knoweth not how against him that lyeth watching vpon his ward or Stocata guard Of striking and thrusting both together I It is strongly holden of manie that if in fight they find their enemy to haue more skill then themselues they presently will continually strike thrust iust with him whereby they will make their fight as good as his and thereby haue as good aduantage as the other with all his skill but if their swordes be longer then the other then their aduantage is great for it is certaine say they that an inch will kill a man but if their swordes be much longer then the other then their aduantage is so great that they wil be sure by thrusting and striking iust with the other that they will alwaies hurt him that hath the short sword and go cleare themselues because they will reach him when he shall not reach them These men speake like such as talke of Robin Hoode that neuer shot in his bow for to strike or thrust iust together with a man of skill lyeth not in the will of the ignorant because the skilfull man alwaies fighteth vpon the true times by the which the vnskilfull is still disappointed of both place and time and therefore driuen of necessitie still to watch the other when what he will doe that is whether he will strike thrust or false if the vnskilfull strike or thrust in the time of falsing therein he neither striketh nor thrusteth iust with the other he may saie he hath stroke or
thrust before him but not iust with him nor to anie good purpose for in the time of falsing if he strike or thrust he striketh or thrusteth too short for in that time he hath neither time nor place to strike home and as it is said the vnskilfull man that will take vpon him to strike or thrust iust with the skilfull must first behold what the man of skil will doe and when he will doe it and therfore of necessitie is driuen to suffer the skilfull man to be the first mouer and entred into his Action whether it be blow or thrust the truth therof in reason cannot be denied Now iudge whether it be possible for an vnskilfull man to strike or thrust iust together with a man of skill but the skilfull man can most certainly strike and thrust iust together with the vnskilfull because the vnskilfull fighteth vpon false times which being too long to answere the true times the skilfull fighting vpon the true times although the vnskilfull be the first mouer entred into his Action whether it be blow or thrust yet the shortnesse of the true times maketh at the pleasure of the skilfull a iust meeting together in perfect fight two neuer strike or thrust together because they neuer suffer place nor time to performe it Two vnskilfull men manie times by chance strike and thruste together chance vnto them because they know not what they doe or how it commeth to passe but the reasons or causes be these Sometimes two false times meet make a iust time together sometimes a true time and a false time meeteth and maketh a iust time together and sometimes two true times meet and make a iust time together And all this hapneth because the true time and place is vnknowne vnto them George Siluer his resolution vpon that hidden or doubtfull question who hath the aduantage of the Offender or Defender The aduantage is strongly holden of many to be in the offender yea in somuch that if two minding to offend in their fight it is thought to be in him that first striketh or thrusteth Others strongly hold opinion that the warder absolutely hath still the aduātage but these opinions as they are contrary the one to the other so are they contrarie to true fight as may well be seene by these short examples If the aduantage be in the warder then it is not good anie time to strike or thrust if the aduantage be in the striker or thruster then were it a friuolous thing to learne to ward or at anie time to seeke to ward since in warding lieth disaduantage Now may it plainly by these examples appeare that if there be anie perfection in fight that both sides are deceiued in their opinions because if the striker or thruster haue the aduantage then is the warder still in danger of wounds or death And againe if the warder hath the aduantage then is the striker or thruster in as great daunger to defend himselfe against the warder because the warder from his wards taketh aduantage of the striker or thruster vpon euerie blow or thrust that shall be made against him Then thus I conclude that if there be perfection in the Science of Defence they are all in their opinons deceiued and that the truth may appeare for the satisfaction of all men this is my resolution there is no aduantage absolutely nor disaduantage in striker thruster or warder and there is a great aduantage in the striker thruster warder but in this maner in the perfection of fight the aduantage consisteth in fight betweene partie and partie that is whosoeuer winneth or gaineth the place in true pace space and time hath the aduantage whether he be striker thruster or warder And that is my resolution Of Spanish fight vvith the Rapier THe Spaniard is now thought to be a better man with his Rapier then is the Italian Frenchman high Almaine or anie other countrie man whatsoeuer because they in their Rapier-fight stand vpon so manie intricate trickes that in all the course of a mans life it shall be hard to learne them and if they misse in doing the least of them in their fight they are in danger of death But the Spaniard in his fight both safely to defend himselfe and to endanger his enemie hath but one onely lying and two wards to learne wherein a man with small practise in a verie short time may become perfect This is the maner of Spanish fight they stand as braue as they can with their bodies straight vpright narrow spaced with their feet continually mouing as if they were in a dance holding forth their armes and Rapiers verie straight against the face or bodies of their enemies this is the only lying to accomplish that kind of fight And this note that as long as any man shall lie in that maner with his arme and point of his Rapier straight it shall be impossible for his aduersarie to hurt him because in that straight holding forth of his arme which way soeuer a blow shall be made against him by reason that his Rapier hilt lyeth so farre before him he hath but a verie litle way to moue to make his ward perfect in this maner If a blow be made at the right side of the head a verie litle mouing of the hand with the knuckles vpward defendeth that side of the head or bodie and the point being still out straight greatly endangereth the striker and so likewise if a blow be made at the left side of the head a verie small turning of the wrist with the knuckles downward defendeth that side of the head and bodie and the point of the Rapier much indangereth the hand arme face or bodie of the striker and if anie thrust be made the wards by reason of the indirections in mouing the feet in maner of dauncing as aforesaid maketh a perfect ward and still withall the point greatly endangereth the other And thus is the Spanish fight perfect so long as you can keepe that order and soone learned and therefore to be accounted the best fight with the Rapier of all other But note how this Spanish fight is perfect and you shall see no longer then you can keepe your point straight against your aduersarie as for example I haue heard the like iest There was a cunning Doctor at his first going to sea being doubtfull that he should be sea-sicke an old woman perceiuing the same said vnto him Sir I pray be of good comfort I will teach you a tricke to auoid that doubt here is a fine pibble stone if you please to accept it take it with you and when you be on ship-bord put it in your mouth and as long as you shall keepe the same in your mouth vpon my credit you shall neuer vomit the Doctor beleeued her and tooke it thankfully at her hands and when he was at sea he began to be sicke whereupon he presently put the stone in his mouth there kept
there is one dozen for you and here is another for me This was one of the valiantest Fencers that came from beyond the seas to teach Englishmen to fight and this was one of the manliest frayes that I haue hard of that euer he made in England wherin he shewed himselfe a farre better man in his life then in his profession he was for he professed armes but in his life a better Christian He set forth in print a booke for the vse of the Rapier and Dagger the which he called his practise I haue read it ouer and because I finde therein neither true rule for the perfect teaching of true fight nor true ground of true fight neither sence or reason for due proofe thereof I haue thought it friuolous to recite any part therin contained yet that the truth hereof may appeare let two mē being wel experienced in the Rapier and Dagger fight choose any of the best branches in the same booke make trial with force and agility without the which the truth betweene the true false fight cannot be knowne they shall find great imperfections therein And againe for proofe that there is no truth neither in his rules groūds or Rapier-fight let triall be made in this maner Proofes against the Rapier fight Set two vnskilfull men together at the Rapier and Dagger being valiant and you shall see that once in two boutes there shall either one or both of them be hurt Then set two skilfull men together being valiant at the Rapier and Dagger and they shall do the like Then set a skilful Rapier and Dagger-man the best that can be had and a valiant man hauing no skill together at Rapier Dagger and once in two bouts vpon my credit in all the experience I haue in fight the vnskilful man do the other what he can for his life to the contrarie shall hurt him and most commonly if it were in continuance of fight you shall see the vnskilfull man to haue the aduantage And if I should chuse a valiant man for seruice of the Prince or to take part with me or anie friend of mine in a good quarrell I would chuse the vnskilfull man being vnencombred with false fights because such a man standeth free in his valour with strength and agilitie of bodie freely taketh the benefit of nature fighteth most braue by loosing no oportunitie either soundly to hurt his enemie or defend himselfe but the other standing for his Defence vpon his cunning Italian wardes Pointa reuersa the Imbrocata Stocata and being fast tyed vnto these false fightes standeth troubled in his wits and nature therby racked through the largenesse or false lyings or Spaces whereby he is in his fight as a man halfe maimed loosing the oportunity of times benefit of nature whereas before being ignorant of these false Rapier fightes standing in the free libertie of nature giuen him by god he was able in the field with his weapō to answere the valiantest man in the world but now being tied vnto that false fickle vncertaine fight thereby hath lost in nature his freedome is now become scarce halfe a man and euerie boye in that fight is become as good a man as himselfe Ieronimo this gallant was valiant and would fight indeed and did as you shall heare He being in a Coch with a wench that he loued well there was one Cheese a verie tall man in his fight naturall English for he fought with his Sword and Dagger and in Rapier-fight had no skill at all This Cheese hauing a quarrell to Ieronimo ouertooke him vpon the way himselfe being on horsebacke did call to Ieronimo and bad him come forth of the Coch or he would fetch him for he was come to fight with him Ieronimo presently went forth of the Coch and drew his Rapier and dagger put himself into his best ward or Stocata which ward was taught by himselfe and Vincentio and by them best allowed of to be the best ward to stand vpon in fight for life either to assault the enemie or stand and watch his comming which ward it should seeme he ventured his life vpon but howsoeuer with all the fine Italienated skill Ieronimo had Cheese with his Sword within two thrustes ran him into the bodie and slue him Yet the Italian teachers will say that an Englishmā cannot thrust straight with a Sword because the hilt will not suffer him to put the forefinger ouer the Crosse nor to put the thumbe vpon the blade nor to hold the pummell in the hand whereby we are of necessitie to hold fast the handle in the hand by reason whereof we are driuen to thrust both compasse and short whereas with the Rapier they can thrust both straight and much further then we can with the Sword because of the hilt and these be the reasons they make against the Sword FINIS