yeare Thetgandus Episcopus Treuirensis Pontificem Romanum Antichristum lupum vocat Romam Babylonem Cùm sis seruus seruorum dominus dominantium esse contendis libidine dominandi in praeceps â—bis quicquid tibilibet licet fucusque factus es Christianis There hee calles the Bishop of Rome Antichrist a Wolfe a vsurper of domination a deceiuer of Christâ—ndome and Rome he calles Babylon And the like at that same time was testified by Guntherus Episcopus Coloniensis ad Nicolaum Pontificem Romanum Tu pontificis personam praete fers at tyrannum agitas sub cultu pastoris lupuâ— sentimus titulus parentem mentitur tu te factis Iouem esse ostentas quum sis seruus seruorum dominus dominantium esse contendis Bernard saith Bestia illa in Apocalypsi cui datum est osloquens blasphemias bellum gerens cum sanctis Petri cathedram occupat tanquam leo paratus ad praedam The beast spoken of in the Reuelation hauing a mouth speaking blasphemies and which Warres against the Saints is now gotten into Peters Chaire as a Lion prepared for his prey What thinke yee of these words R. What should I thinke for my owne part I maruaile that the Pope did not burne Bernard for an hereticke C. So you may But heare yet moâ—e Ioâ—chimus Abbas who liued three hundred yeres since saith Antichristus iamdudum natus est Romae altiùs extolletur in sede Apostolicá Antichrist long since is borne in Rome and shall bee aduanced yet higher in the Apostolicke seate Franciscus Petrarcha Archdecon of Parma who liued in the thousand three hundreth and fiftie yeare Epist. 5.14 17 18 19 c. Compares the Pope to Iudas who betrayed Christ with a kisse his Clergie to the Iâ—wes who said to him Aue Rex Iudaeorum His Prelates to the Phariâ—ies â—ho in mockerie clothed him with Puâ—ple and after crucified him And againe Denie it now if thou canst That thou art shee whom S. Iohn saw in the spirit sitting vpon many waters Thou art shee and none other that Babylon the mother of the whoredomes of the earth drunken with the blood of the Martyrs of Iesus thou art shee which hast made all Kings of the earth drunken with the Cups of thy poyson In the thousand and three hundreth yeare lib. 2. cap. 5 In Synodo Reginoburgensi habita est haec oratio â— quodam Episcopo contra pontificem Romanum Sub Pontificis maximi titulo pastoris pelle lupum saeâ—isâ—mum nisi caeci simus sentimus Romani slamines arma in omnes habent Christianos audendo fallendo bella ex bellis serendo magni facti oues trucidant occidunt pacem concordâ—am terris depellunt intestina bella domesticas seditiones ab inferis eliciunt indiès magis ac magis omnium vires debilitant vt omnium capitibus insultent omnes deuorent vniuersos in seruitutem redigant c. Ingentia loquitur quasi verò Deus esset noua consilia sub pectore volutat vt nouum sibi constituat imperium leges commutat suas sancit contaminâ—t diripit spoliat fraudat occidit perditus ille homo quem Antichristum vocare solent in cuius fronte coâ—tumeliae nomen scriptum est Deus sum errare non possum in templo Dei sedet longè lateque dominatur In the thousand and foure hundreth yeare lib. 1. cap. 4. Iohannes vicesimus tertius wrote vnto the Oriental Church an Epistle declaring that there was but one Christian Church onely and that hee was head thereof and the Vicar of Christ The Grecians wrote backe to him this answere Potentiam tuam summam erga subâ—itos tuos firmiter credimus superbiam tuam summam tolerare non possumus auaritiam explâ—re non valemus Diabolus tecum quia Dominus nobiscum Thy great power ouer thy Subiects we firmly beleeue thy surpassing pride we can not tolerate thy auarice wee are not able to satisfie the diuell is with thee for the Lord is with vs. R. God be mercifull to vs. C. Amen Now Sir I must craue your licence for some friends are attending mee with whome I appointed to meete this houre R. Good reason but before you goe I would fain he are an answer to two questions which commonly they demand C. Which are those R. The one is Where was your Church before Luther the other Are all our fathers damned C. With a very good will But if you please deferre the conference concerning them till to morrow R. Let it be so now the Lord bee with you THE FIFTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein the common question of the Aduersaries is aunswered Where was your Church before LVTHER C. NOw Sir you remember you propouÌ„ded two questions to me yesternight R. It is very true and I would gladly heare your answere to them for my further resolution What thinke you then because you call Papistrie heresie are you of that minde that all our fathers are damned that no Papist can be saued C. I am not to iudge of mens persons many are called Papists who know not what Papistrie meanes and many liue Papists who dare not die Papists or if so they doe they know not what they doe But Papistrie it selfe I affirme it is a pernicious doctrine yea as the Apostle cals it a doctrine of diuels killing the Soules of them who beleeue it But this is the second of your questions which we will reserue till the next day R. Let it be so What then say you to the first Where was your Church before Luther C. Euen where our doctrine was sometime in one Countrie sometime in an other as it pleased God in his wise dispensatiâ—n who caries the light of his Gospell as he doth the Sunne â—hrough the World to illuminate Nations at sâ—uerall times therewith according to his will R. That is a faire Generall but will yee tell vs who were these What Countrie people What Doctors who taught as yee teach R. Looke the Churches of Asia Asricke and of Europe consider them as they were before the mysterie of iniquitie came to the hight and you shal see that they all had the same doctrine and forme of a Church that we haue in all substantiall points pertaining to Religion R. But you are not able to name one before Luther teaching in all things as he did C. This is a peece of Sophistrie whereby your deceiuers blind the ignorant R. How so should not the teachers of the truth agree in al things in one harmonie C. I grant they should and thanks be to God they doe also in al substantial things which are Articles of our faith But is this a good reason because some Doctors in some opinions differ whereof men may bee ignorant and saued neuerthelesse that therefore these Doctors teach no truth and their Churches are no true Churches R. That seemes to bee hard indeed C. You haue reason for you so to thinke for in one age Viâ—tor with the Church in the West was in a
be most true which is most ancient C. I say that same yet And that you may conceiue it the better I pray you consider that truth and errour suppose they came not of the same parents yet in regard of time they are like two twinnes but the vantage of time that is truth hath it suppose very little R. I pray you let me heare that at more length for I see it will greatly helpe to cleare this point C. Will you goe vp to the Church in Paradise and you shall see the first voice that sounded there was Gods voice For in the first two Chapters of Genesis you will heare nothing but Deus dixit God said but incontinent in the third Chapter comes in Et Serpens dixit and the Serpent said R. I see that clearely C. And I am glad you doe so But I pray you consider wil any man be so mad as to thinke that Sathans lies shall bee receiued for a truth because they are now neere sixe thousand yeares old R. It were no reason indeed because albeit his lies â—ee olde yet as you haue said there is a Truth elder C. I pray you remember that that it may confirme you against the craft of Sathan when hee would couer errour with a shew of Antiquitie R. I hope to doe so C. Now will yee come down againe to the dayes of Christ Iesus may you not see that when our Lord sent out his Apostles Sathan also sent out his false Apostles and when Simon Peter comes out to Preach the Gospell Simon Magus is stirred vp to Preach heresies R. I see that also C. Then let vs agree in this since Truth is to bee sought from our fathers according as we are commanded Enquire for the good and olde way we will goe seeke it from our most ancient fathers R. Truely it caries with it I thinke a reason that we should not be mooued with the opinion of any father where they varie from the doctrine of the first fathers C. You speake now as you should and as before I shewed you was the mind of that ancient father Iustine Martyr when it was obiected to him such a father thought such a thing he answered Sed pater patrum Apostolus aliter sensit And herein to confirme you if controuersies of Religion were decided as our Sauiour decided the question of Polygamie the debate betweene vs and the Romish Church were soone ended R. How did Christ resolue that controâ—ersie of Polygamie C. By this rule It was not so from the beginning Leauing this to vs as a maxime in Religion and a most sure rule whereby to trie truth from falshood What hath not beâ—ne from the beginning let it bee reiected as a noueltie And herein the ancient fathers agree with vs. Be yee sollowers of me saith the Apostle as I am of Christ if I or an Angel c. Mihi antiquitas Iesiâ— Christus est cui non obedire manifestus est irremissibilis interitus Ignat Epist. ad Philad Non attendendum quid quis ante nos faciendum putauerit sed quid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit Cypri lib. 2. Epist. 3. Neque enim hominis consueâ—udinem sed Deiveritatem sequi oportet Ibid. Non est de consuetudine praescribendum sed ratione vincendum Ad Quintinum Obstinatio est praesumptio humanam traditionem diuinae dispositioni anteponeâ—e nec animadvertere â—ndignaeri irasci deum quoties diuina praecepta soluit praeterit humana traditio Ad Pompeium Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas est erroris Ibid. Si ad diuinae traditionis caput originem reuertamur cessat error humanus Ibid Frustrà quidam quiratione vincuntur consuetudinem nòbis opponunt qâ—asi conâ—uetudo sit mator verâ—â—â—â— â—d â—ubaâ—anum Nec 〈◊〉 nâ—c mâ—iorum erroâ— seqâ—â—â—â—â— eâ—â— sed auâ—horitas Scriptâ—râ—râ—â— â—â—i docem is imperâ—â—â—m 〈◊〉 â—â—â—iaei poâ—â— Baalim abieruns quos â—idicerunt a patribus Hieâ—on in lerem cap. 9. Omnes hâ—retici aetati Eccleâ—ie vniuer saâ—is comparati minores tempore congrue vocantur quia ipsi ab eâ non autem ipsa egressa est â—b illis Greg. in Iob. lib. 10. Sect. 37. Sicut in omnibus veritas imaginem antecedit postremò similitudo succedit ita prior veritas quam haeresis Tertul. praescrip aduersus haeret R. But what makes these against the Church of Rome C. Yea very much for all these nouelties which shee hath inuented and intruded into the Church she colours them with the shadow of ancient custome and so very craftily vnder the name of Antiquitie fights against Antiquitie R. It is not enough to affirme that vnlesse yee qualifie it C. I will make it cleare to you if first yee heare a notable testimonie oâ— Vincentius to this same purpose R. What sayes he C. It is a propertie of Christian modestie not to deliuer their owne things to the after-commers but to keepe things receiued from their fore-beers R. Very well that place makes â—gainst you who will not keepe the Religion of your fore-beers C. It makes not against vs but against the Church of Rome who hath departed from the Religion of them who are theirs and our foreâ—eerâ— also as the remnant of his words will declare vnto you R. Reade them out then C. Hee is expounding heere he Apostles words If I or an Angell from heauen should bring to you another doctrine then that which yee haue receiued let him be accursed R. What sayes hee of it C. These are his words If Peter if Andrew if Iohn yea if the whole Apostles would Preach to you an other way then is deliuered in the Gospell let them be accursed To Preach vnto Christian Catholickes besides â—hat which we haue receiued was neuer is neuer shall neuer be lawfull R. Let it bee so the Church of Rome hath deliuered no doctrine but that shee hath recâ—iued C. Yes but shee hath and now once for all I will giue you amongst many one cleare example of it In the thirteenth Session of the Councell of Constance as is Recorded by Carranza one of your owne and Registred in your Canon Law there is an Act made of this tenour Licet in Primitiuâ Ecclesiâ huiusmodi Sacramentum reciperetur a fidelibus sub vtraque specie tamen haec consuetudo ad euitandum aliqua pericula scandala est rationaâ—iliter introducta quòd a conficientibus sub vtraque specie a laicis tantummodo sub specie panis suscipiatur Albeit in the Primitiue Church this Sacrament was receiued of the faithful vnder both the kinds yet to eschewe some perils and offences this custome now with very good reason is brought in that the Priest should receiue it vnder both the kinds but the people should receiue the bread onely and not the cup. What thinke yee now of this place Hath not the Church of Rome here deliuered a Doctrine which shee hath not receiued Is there not heere a manifest changing
Antiquitie we shall make the Church a brothell of filthie and abominable errours which before was a Temple of chaste and vndefiled veritie where as the Church of Christ should bee a diligent keeper of the doctrine deliuered to it changing nothing diminishing nothing adding nothing Now these are the words of Vincentius and I demand of you out of the light of your conscience if you can gaine-say them R. In truth it is a pretie discourse and I embrace all that he hath said as a truth C. Aduise you thâ—n yet what yee wil say for the Church of Rome since it can not bee denied they haue changed diminished and added to the ancient Catholicke faith Some ceremonies and opinions they haue which Antiquitie knewe not some the ancient Church had which they haue pared away and in a word haue so change that in Rome is nothing anciâ—nt but the name R. That seemes very hard For though in some ceremonies there bee adding paring and chaunging yet I can not thinke it is in substance C. You are farre deceiued for they haue made a change in the substance R. Wherein C. In the maine point of saluation as now among many I will shew you by this one What Diuinitie is this to teach people to pray that God would bring them to Heauen by an other blood then Christs blood R. O that can not be C. Nay maruaile not there is the Prayer of their owne Masse booke Tu per Thomae sanguinem quem ille pro te pendit fac nos Christe scandere quò Thomas ascendit R. I haue not heâ—rd of that for my owne part I would bee loath to chaunge the blood of the couenant or to disgrace it so farre as to ioyne any other with it C. The more wise are you for it is by Christs blood Onely that reconciliation is made But what thinke yee of confidence should wee put considence in any but in God R. No truely C. What a Prayer is this theÌ„ Inua ergo omnes gentes In te Sancte confidentes Confessor Armigile And is not Prayer thinke you and Inuocation a speciall point of Gods seruice R. So it is C. Why then is it giuen to Saints and that Psalter which containes Prayers praises to God all turned ouer to the Virgine Marie Should mens traditions to whome God by his heauenly oracle hath not borne testimonie be receiued Pari pietatis affectu reuerentiâ with like deuotion and reuerence as the word of God R. Who sayes that C. The Councell of Trent Should the foure Councels bee receiued as the foure Euangelists or should the Canon Law and decretall Epistles bee receiued as Canonicall Scripture R. I know not what that is C. Then I will tell you Twelue hundreth yeares after Christ Gratian a Benedictine Monke gathered together the sentences of Councels Fathers and Popes concerning sundrie matters of Religion and set it forth which is commonly called Decretum and after him certain Popes as Gregory the ninth Boniface the eight Clemens the fift Iohn the twentie two following the example of Gratian haue gathered the like These are called Decretals and Extrauagants added to Decretum all of them make vp the Canon law which now must bee equalled with the word and all to bee receiued as if Peter his owne mouth had pronounced them Is not this against the golden rule of Vincentius to mixe noueltie with Antiquitie What say you to it R. In truth I can not iudge of that which I know not C. I will giue you but one Decrete of this law and let you see how it strikes the Apostle S. Paul in the teeth that by it you may iudge of the rest Secundam accipere vxorem secundùm Apostoli praeceptum licitum est secundum autem veritatis rationem verè fornicatio est Second marriage â—ccording to the Apostles precept is lawful but according to the truth of reason is plaine fornication I am not now to dispute whether Church-men may Marrie or not themselues grant it is not forbidden neither by Legall nor Apostolicall authoritie yet they will forbid it But what Diuinitie is this According to the Apostles precept it is lawfull to Marrie but according to truth and reason it is Whoredome that is as they would saye according to the word of God in the Bible it is true but according to the word of God in the Canon Law written twelue hundreth yeares after Christ it is false Did the Apostle giue any precept without reason or truth How dare they call that vnlawfull which the Apostle cals lawfull Wâ—e be to them who call good euill You hold silence at these things and no maruaile for I thinke no honest man can approoue them But to return to things of great importance I assure you the onely question and controuersie in Religion this day may be taken vp in this question Is Iesus the Sonne of Mary the Christ Or as the Baptist takes it vp Art thou hee who is come or shall wee looke for an other R. I thinke no man will denie that C. Yea the Turke and Pagane say such Christ as Christians beleeue is neither come nor wil come the Iewes say hee is not come but hee will come The Catholicke Romane in word confesseth him but in deede denies him Quem praedicant impugnant both in his Person and Offices R. That is a strange assertion such as I haue not heard C. It is strange indeede and I would wee had no cause to charge them with it but beecause it is the most weightie point whereof yet wâ— haue spoken wee will referre it to bee handled in a meeter time R. I am content prouiding you forget not to make that good which you haue said C. If I forget I pray remember me And now this Dispute about Antiquitie I conclude with IGNATIVS Mihi antiquitas est Iesus Christus cui non obedire manifestus est irremissibilis interitus Epist. ad Philadelphos My Antiquitie is Iesus Christ to disobey him is manifest and remedilesse destruction and with that which Aâ—gustine said to the Pelagians Quia isti disserunt disputant nescio quas impias nouitates etiam nos conantur arguere quòd aliquod nouum dicamus Because these fâ—llowes maintaine certaine impious nouelties they also goe about to charge vs as if wee did teach any new thing But of this if you please you shall heare more R. It pleaseth me very well I shall attend your comming if you may at seuen howres C. Let it be so THE SECOND DAYES CONFERENCE Concerning the Antiquitie of the Church of SCOTLAND and how the Church of ROME in her best estate was but a sister not a mother Church vnto it C. WHat say you to day Sir haue you considered the points of our last conference R. Yea I haue beene as I may thinking vpon them C. What Is not your heart mooued to come to vs R. I find it mooued but not remooued from the Church
thinke it goes very hard with them when their best Doctors can say no more in defence of Rome but it was Babel or it will be Babel that is either Antichrist sate there or will sett there C. I hope you shall thinke much more before you goe for now I will improue their distinction and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours nor the Towne of Rome in the last time of the World that here is called Babel but the whorish Church of Rome gouerned by Apostated Popes R. Make that cleare and the cause is wonne Babel in the Reuelation is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours but Rome once Christian now corrupted vnder Popes C. It is euident S. Iohn prophecies of the state of Rome as it will bee in the dayes of Antichrist so sayes the Iesuite Viega Haec est quarta visio huius operis eaque illustrissima ad Antichristi tempora pertinens So also sayes the Iesuite Ribera a ca. 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda iota ad Antichristum eiusque tempora pertinet But the dayes of persecuting Emperours were not the dayes of Antichrist if they so say they destroy all their owne doctrine concerning Antichrist and therefore this prophecie of Babel is not to bee vnderstood of the Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours Secondly Ethnicke Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospell and was not married with Christ and therefore cannot be this Whore which Carthusian their owne man expounds to be An adulterous Whore You shall finde no people in holy Scripture charged with spirituall Whoredom but such as haue beene married with Christ none can bee Apostates from the faith who neuer stoode in the faith there must bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This whoorish Babel then can not be Ethnicke Rome vnmarried with Christ. Seeing themselues doe grant it is Rome it must bee Rome once Christian but now corrupted once Apostolicke standing in the faith now Apostatiâ—ke fallen from the faith Thirdly this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of abominations and the filthines of her fornicationâ— wherewith shee makes drunken the inhabitants of the earth By this golden cup Berengandus their owne man vnderstands Documenta erroribus plena And so this Babel can not signifie Rome vnder Emperors who subdued the world by force of Sword and plaine violence but must signifie Rome vnder Popes which hath deceiued the world by false doctrine and lying myracles Fourthly this Babel is called the mother of Whoredomes and abominations in the earth which not onely her selfe hath played the Whoore corrupting the true worship of God but hath inforced her corruptions and superstitions vpon othâ—rs Now it is knowne that olde Rome sought no more but subiection of bodies leauing the consciences of people free to any kind of worshippe they pleased They subdued the Iewes and forced them to pay tribute but left them to their owne Religion yea so farre were they from inforcing their superstitious worship vpon any nation that by the contrarie themselues were infected with the superstitions of all nations as is euident by their Pantheon which they erected in the honour of all Gods And so it is not Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours which heere is called the Mother of whoredomes Fiftly the name of this Babel is mysterium in quo aliud cernitur aliud intelligitur Quia enim tot simulatis virtutibus decoratur non omnibus mulieris huius prauatas innotescet sed viris iusâ—is prudentibus So then by this Babel some mysticall enemie is vnderstood being indeede an enemie but in shew pretending friendship and therfore called afterward Gog and not Magog that is not an open and plain enemy as is the Turke But Gog a couered enemie for this cause figured also before by a beast with two hornes looking like a Lambe but speaking like the Dragon To this purpose sayes IEROME Simulabit se ducem faederis And Hilarius that Antichrist shall bee contrarie to Christ vnder a â—orme of fained and hypocriticall godlinesse And Chrysostome Antichrist must bee knowne by his doctrine not by his titles miracles nor words of godlinesse And therefore it is a silly defence of the Iesuites The Pope say they prayers humbly to God and calles himselfe seruus seruorum Dei therefore is not an aduersarie for the Question is not what he calles himsâ—lfe but what hee is But to hold vpon this point it is euident by what which I haue said that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnicke nor yet Rome which at the last shall rebell for both these are open enemies but Rome vnder Popes a mysticall enemie Sixthly in this Reuelation there are two women described the one Chap. 12. clothed with the Sunne which is CHRIST hauing on her head twelue Starres for a Garland the glorie of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelue Apostles and vnder her feete the Moone figuring this mutable world This woman as themselues confesse represents the true Church The other woman described Chap. 17. is arayed in Purple Scarlet Gold and precious stones voide of inward beautie and chastitie shee sets forth her selfe with all externall brauerie that shee may drawe many louers to her Now I say seeing the first woman signifies the true Church as themselues confesse and afterward is called the Lâ—mbes wife why doe they not â—ee that this whorish woman must signifie the false Church And since they grant that Babel is Rome what else can the whoore of Babel be but the whoorish Church of Rome And therefore their owne Doctours expounding that prophecie of Saint Iohn Babel is fallen and become an habitation of diâ—els Ribera expounds it of an externall desolation accâ—rding to that of â—say prophâ—cied of the first Babel The â—im and Zâ—m shall leape there But Viega Nobis etiam illud dicendum viâ—etur cum Arethâ Primasio Ambrosio Ansberto Haimone idololatriam eius vrbis significari desecturamque esse Romam a fide atque adcò futuram esse habitationem daemoniorum ob execranda slagitia iâ—olotriae superstitioneÌ„ expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith which hee sayes is a thing which will be but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already the foretold defection is come Antichrist that man of sinne is discouered God by the breath of his mouth is dayly consuming him THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist C. GOod morrow Sir how doe you to day R. The best I can C. It is most like you haue not rested well this night R. To say the truth Thinking on our conference made my rest the lesse C. It agrees but ill with you to heare the Church of Rome conuicted of Apostasie R. I thinke so indeede and still will so thinke till ye resolue this question what is the cause there being so many VVise and Learned men in the Popes Church that they cannot see
How long C. Yea they want their brethren all them that belong to the communion of Saints their desire shall not be satisfied till all their brethren bee where they are for God hath so prouided that thâ—y without vs should not bee perfected R. In truth that is exceeding comfortable that Adam Abraham the rest of that congregation of the first borne shal not be perfected till we come to them yea til the full number of Gods Saints bee accomplished But is there no other thing they long for C. Yea they long and pray for the comming of Christ Euen so come Lord Iesus at which time they know verie well that all the promises of God shall bee performed to all and euerie one of the Saints of God Thus farre you see how they in Heauen do pray in generall R. But you thinke not that we should praie to them in our particular necessities C. No indeed for beside the former reason we haue no warrant to praie vnto them and so cannot doe it in faith Will you consider can there bee any better Schoolemasters to teach vs how to pray then the persons of the blessed Trinitie and thinke you not we are surest when wee praiâ— in such a manner as they haue taught R. That cannot bee denied C. Then I pray you marke it there is the voice of God the Father Call vpon me there is the precept of God the Son When you pray you shall say in this manner Our Father which art in Heauen c. there is againe the voice of God the Holy Ghost who when hee teacheth vs to pray teacheth vs Crie abba Father What say you to these is there any word here of praier to Cherubin or Seraphin is there any warrant for turning ouer of all the prayers in the Psalme booke to the Virgin Marie O Ladie that art my righteousnesse Psal. 4. O Ladie reprooue mee not in thy wrath Psal. 6. R Truly I can say noâ—hing against them for I see according to Gods Word it is the surest and safest way to pray to God by the mediation of Christ. C. But now I will bring you one cleare instance to let you see how Papistrie takes away Christs intercession and sets him idle in the Heauens R. What is that C. They say there is in Heauen a King God the Father a Queene the Virgin Marie and that the King hath giuen to the Queen dimidium regni the halfe of his Kingdome the Ministration of Iustice hee hath kept to himselfe the Ministration of Mercie hee hath giuen ouer to the Virgin Marie such as seeke Iustice goe to the King of Heauen such as seeke Mercie goe to the Queene who also by her authoritie hath power to command her Sonne Christ Iesus R. Good sooth these are too grosse speeches for as you haue said they make Christ idle in Heauen or like a childe vnder Tuition for my owne part I will keepe that reuerent estimation of the blessed Virgin that is due to her but will euer reserue to Christ the glorie of a Sauiour and Mediatour C. Let it bee so only now I will let you see that as Papistrie destroies many Articles of our Christian faith concerning the person and Offices of Christ So it is a Pâ—st of Common-wealths loosing al the bands of human fellowshippe and societie R. That is strange for there are many flourishing Kingdomes with vnitie and peace that professe Papistrie R. Remember you what our Sauiour sayes in the Parable So long as the strong man keepes his house all is in quiet but when a stronger then hee comes in to bind him there begins the battell So long as Sathan possessed the World by the darknesse of Papistrie there was a miserable felicitie in it and a cursed vnitie such as was in Sodom where young and old from the foure corners of the Citie conspired and agreed to one impietie But now since Christ comes in by his glorious Gospell to illuminate his owne with the light thereof that which before seemed peace in Papistrie now appeares to bee a firâ— come from Hel seeking to deuoure all such as forsake hâ—r errours and embrace the truth of God R. I but that is a thing wherwith they charge the Gospel that since it was preached many Sects and Heresies are risen vp in the world which were not in it before C. I pray you consider what a Policiâ— of Sathan that is to disgrace the Gospell how manie Heresies arose in the Apostles dayes or soone after that was not in the World before Then came vp Simon Magus Cerinthus Ebion Marcion Basilides Menander Valentinus Cerdon Marcion and many more Shall the Gospell be blamed for this or rather may you not see it is the craft of the Deuill to disgrace the Gospell R. Indeede I thinke it no good reason that the Gospell should be the lesse esteemed of There is but one truth but manifold errours and I remember our Sauiour warning vs of thiâ— in that Parable of the Gospell That where the good Husbanman sowes good wheat in the day incontinent comes the Enemie that euill one and sowes his popple in the night C. Now if you apply that to our present question the doubt is easily solued So long as the World was blinded with idolatrie and the Masse which in effect is but a Masse of Heresies Sathan laie quiet hee was not troubled in his Kingdome and hee raised no trouble in the World but since the light of the Gospell discouered his darkenesse and that hee findes his Kingdome decaying and himselfe falling by the preaching of the Gospell now he bestirres himselfe more busily and doth what he can to disgrace this glorious EvaÌ„gell by vile heresies of some that impugne it and profane liues of others who professe it But as you see it is no reason why the Gospell should be blamed for any of these R. It is not indeed But now you remember you beganne to discourse how Papistrie is a Pest of Common-wealthes Kingdoms dissoluing all the bands of humane fellowshippe and societie among men C. Now I will let you see it There is own of their Positions It is llawfull to spoile an Heretique of his goods meliùs tamen est quod auihoritate indicis fiat though it were better to do it by authoritie of the Iudge In their iudgement all Protestants are Heretiques and so they make it lawful for Papists both to steale and reaue from them R. That is strange indeede and yet I haue many times marâ—aâ—led what should haue moued the Mâ—c gregors and other Licentious Men of our Island who knew no Religion to professe Papistrie but now I see the reason of it for it made their robberie good Christianitie C. Here are other Vxor catholica viro haeretico beneuolum reddere non teâ—eâ—ur that is to say in plaine tâ—rmes a Wife that is a Papist is not bound to render due benâ—uolence to her Husband being a Protestant R. That assertion is more
list but haue no cause R. VVas not your Father and Grandfather and their Fathers before them for many ages Papists C. What of that they who in regard of time and truth were long before them and should be followed as Fathers to vs and them both were Protestants R. That is but a shift of your owne C. It is no shift it is a truth and you shall see it your selfe if you will consider who were Pauls Fathers whom he saies he followed in the worshipping of God R. What were the names of his Fathers were I cannot tell but I see they haue been Israelites of the Tribe of Beniamin C. We haue not that to stand vpon what they were for their persons or names either but what was their Religion remember you not that hee sayes himselfe he was brought vp at the feet of Gamaliâ—l R. Yea I doe C. Tell mee now of what Religion was Gamaliâ—l R. I see he hath been a Pharesie C. And think you that Saint Paul when hee made his Apologie worshipped God after the manner of Pharesies R. I thinke it not C. How then sayes hee that he worshipped God after the maner of his Fathers seeing his Fathers were Pharesies R. I thinke he meanes not of these fathers who liued last before him but transcending them he passes vp to his elder fathers Abraham Isaack Iacob C. Was hee not then wrongfully accused of noueltie as one who had forsaken the religion of his fathers because hee forsooke the Religion of such Fathers as liued last before him R. I thinke so indeede His Apologie cleares him sufficiently both of heresie and noueltie which his aduersaries would haue imputed to him C. Now Sir I haue you where I would why should not the like Apologie cleare vs in the like case for albeit we haue foresaken the heresies of Papistrie maintained by them that liued last before vs yet doe wee worship the Lord our God as these fathers did whom Iustin Martyr callâ—s Patres Patrum whom with him we will prefer to any posterior fathers whatsoeuer R. That cannot be seeing it is known it is not threescore yeers since your Religion came into this Country C. No Sir I will make known to you that it is 1500 yeeres since this same Religion preached and professed now was then preached and professed by our Ancient fathers The first Religion that euer we had was gentilisme our fathers worshipped Diana the Sun the Moone the Starres R. That was a pittifull blindnesse C. So it was indeed but in the first hundreth yeere we embraced Christianity and eight hundreth yeere after Christ we were infected with Papistrie and now againe hath God called vs by the light of the gospel to our ancient Religion of Christianity whereby wee worshippe the Father in his sonne according to his word and no other way R. You speake faire enough to it be as it will but if it be true that you say then would you be in communion with the Catholike Church C. And so thanks to God we are reioycing as I said vnto you that the Lord by his Gospell hath called vs to bee Christian Catholikes R. That is alsoâ— a new stile of your owne that you will bee called Christian Catholikes C. If you were acquainted with antiquity you would not call it new with many such nouelties you charge vs which are indeed ancient truthes it is eleuen hundreth yeeres since in the seuenth Councell of Carthage professors of the Gospell were called Catholike Christians R. But to let the style passe how can you say you are in coÌ„munion with the Catholike Church seeing you haue made separationâ— from the Romane Church and refuse to bee stiled Roman Catholikes C. The Romane Church in her best estate was neuer more but a member of the Catholike Church and there is no more reason to cal the Roman church the Catholike Church nor to say that Rome is all Italy or Paâ—â—s is all France but now seeing the Roâ—an Church hath plaied the Whore made a shameful Apostasie from her first estate wee haue done no wrong in seperating from her but for our warrant haue Gods owne Proclamation commanding vs to doe so R. Where haue you that Proclamation C. There it is Come out of Babell my people R. But no word is there of Rome C. I shall proue to you that this Babel is Rome and your own Doctors cannot deny it R. If you make all good you haue said I will say no more but there is many one beguiled C. If you will heare mee by Gods grace I shall make it good R. I will not refuse to heare you and I trust also to answere you C. It is not me you shall hear but the voice of the Gospell which if it were heard at Rome I am of that mind the Popes kingdome should not long continue R. It will bee hard for you to get hearing there C. And why since Sodomits there haue their brothels and Iewes haue their Synagogues wherein they curse Christ why may not Protestants bee tolerated to haue a Church wherein to preach R. Good sooth they loue you worse then any of them I thinke it true for onâ— Deuill can dwell well inough with an other yea a legion of them in one man but none of them will giue place to Christ. But tell me how long God willing mind you to stay in this towne R. I hope to be in it all this weeke C. Then I pray you let vs spare euery day one howre or two for conference and I will come to you to your owne chamber R. Agreed am I and let our conference to morow continue about antiquitie for I think it somewhat strange that you should pretend it C. Well let it be so THE FIRST DAYES CONFERENCE Concerning Antiquitie in General R. WElcome Sir I see you are a true man and keepe promise C. What I am not in good faine would I be R. Thinke you not best we begin where wee left yesternight C. Yea indeede R. What say you then of Antiquitie will you not graunt that to bee the true Church which hath the most auncient Doctrine C. That is a thing out of all question the Doctrine which is most ancient I embrace and beleeue to be most true R. You will myre your selfe incontinent for these which yee call corruptions in the Church of Rome some of them will be found a thousand yeares old C. What is that to the matter Seeing the truth whereby we condemne these corruptions will be found elder then they and wee to speake with Vincentius wil euer preferre the olde Faith to new vnfaithfulnesse for if you thinke this a good Argument Such a doctrine or ceremonie should be receiued because it is one thousand and two hundred yeares old then by the same reason the heresies of Simon Magus must bee receiued for a truth because they were taught by him one thousand and sixe hundred yeares since R. But said you not euen now you would acknowledge that to
the truth and follow it C. Whether they see or see not I cannot tell you but you know what the Apostle sayes Brethren yee see your calling not many wise not many noble nor mightie men after the flesh are called but God hath chosen the foolish thinges of the World to confound â—he wise R. I knowe that is the Apostles saying but yet I cannot but maruell what should holde them backe from knowledge of the truth C. You shall cease to maruel if you conâ—â—der one thing R. What is that C. VVhen Christ shewed himselfe to the World how many of the Nobles and Learned Rabbins did know him Will you find any more among the Nobleâ— but Ioseph of Arâ—mathea Will you find any more among the Learned Pharisies but Nicodemus R. Truly not that I remember C. Was it then thinke you a good argumeÌ„t they vsed against Christ Doth any of the Rulers or Scribes beleeue in Christâ— but only this cursed people who knowes not the Law R. No indeed C. Bee not then moued with the like now Oh say the Papists how many Learned men are of our Religion Euery man naturall in things pertaining to eternall life is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without a minde till hee bee illuminate by grace were he in naturall reason as quick as Aristotle or in policie as Achitophel he is but a starke foole till he bee taught of God and therefore maruell no more that Learned Iesuites cannot know the truth then when you heare that Learned Iewish Rabbins could not know Christ when he was among them R. The Lorde then make vs thankfull for reuealing the way of life vnto vs which is hid from so many in the World C. Amen good Lord. And now for your further confirmation consider these testimonies I haue subioyned How the Fathers of the first ages point out Antichrist to come and warne vs to looke for him at Rome Let no man seduce you by any meanes for the day of the Lord shall not come vnlesse there come first a reuolt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the man of sinne bee reuealed the sonne of perdition which is an aduersarie and extolled aboue all which is called God or that is worshipped so that he sitteth in the temple of God shewing himselfe as if he were God 2. Thessal 2.3 Now the mysterie of iniquitie worketh only he which now withholdeth will let it till he be taken out of the way C. What thinke you of this Prophecie R. I haue heard that to bee a falling away from the Roman Empire C. No Sir the most iudicious both Ancient and Recent expound it to bee a falling from the faith As for the Ancients see Augustine de Ciuitate Dei â—ib 20. Cap. 19. Nulli dubium est eum de Antichristo ista dixisse For the Recents see Aquinas on this place R. But granting it were so yet this Prophecie is of one single man and cannot be meant of the Popes of Rome C. No that is also a silly shift when your Church-men say that the Pope is Christ Vicar doe they meane any one single Pope R. No but the state or succession of Popes C. Very well and when wee say that the Pope is Christ opposite doe wee vnderstand this man or that man no truly but the whole state or regiment of them since their defection R. But I see not how this Prophecie either toucheth the Pope or the Church of Rome and if it bee meant of any defection from the faith it is meant of Luther Caluine and such as haue fallen from the Church of Rome C. Compare another Prophesie of the same Apostle concerning the sâ—me purpose and see how he expounds himselfe R. Where is that C. Here are his wordes 1. Timothie 4.1 Now the Spirit speakes euidently that in the last times some shall depart from the faith attending to Spirits of errour and Doctrine of Deuils and marke how hee subioynes some particular points of their doctrine which shall come in with the Apostasie to wit that they shall forbid mariage and command abstinence from meates which God hath created to bee receiued with thankesegiuing VVhat thinke you now whether doth this touch them or vs R. I know it cannot concerne you for you forbid none to marie that cannot containe C. Neither can this Prophesie bee cast backe vpon Heresies of the Marcionits and others neerest the Apostles dayes as the Iesuites doe to shift this Prophesie from themselues for the Apostles saye this Apostasie shall fall out in the laâ—t times And the former Prophesie saies that the Roman Empire must first bee taken out of the way then shall the Apostasie worke to the height as indeede it fell out that the seat of the Empire being translated to Constantinople the Emperour decreased the Bishop of Rome more and more increased so that it is not meant of Heretikes neerest the Apostles dayes but of such as shall rise after the decay of the Roman Empire And who tell mee hath growne by the decay of the Empire None but the Pope he hath his Imperial seat his robes his crowne his rents so that the Emperor except the name the double Eagle hath littlâ— or nothing of the Empire And therfore Aquinas who saw what was the meaning of that place moues the doubt What shall wee answere saies he seeing the Roman Empire is decayed how can we denie buâ— Antichrist is come To this he answeres we must say the Roman Empire is not away only the Temporall power therof is changed into a Spiritual what thinke you is there not good stuffe here R. In truth I thinke their cause the longer I heare you the weaker C. So may you But yet more to confirme you consider how the Ancient expound this Prophesie and still cast it vpon the Church of Rome Irenaeus Lib. 5. speaking of the number of the beasts name six hundreth threescore and sixe albeit hee plainly shew it is not his diuination but the accomplishment of the Prophesie which must finde out the number of the name and albeit he make mention also oâ— other names as Eâ—an and Teitan yet sayes hee sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 valde verisimile est Tertullian contra Marcion Babylon apud Ioannem Romanae vrbis figura est proinde magnae regno superbae sanctorum Dei debellatricis Tertullian de resurrectione carnis see how hee expounds that part of the Prophesie Only he who now withholds let till hee be taken out of the way Donec de medio fiat quis nisi Romanus status câ—ius abscisio in decem reges Anti-christum superinducet tunc revelabitur iniquus c. Ambrose in 2. Thessal 2. Non prius veniet dominus quam regni Romani defectio fiat appareat Antichristus qui interficiet sanctos reddita Romanis libertate sub suo tamen nomine Et iterum Post defectum Romani imperij appariturus est Antichristus Cyril Cateches 15. Veniet Antichristus quum impleta fuerint