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truth_n	age_n	church_n	true_a	1,952	5	4.9061	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A68566	A briefe discouery of the vntruthes and slanders (against the true gouernement of the Church of Christ) contained in a sermon, preached the 8. [sic] of Februarie 1588. by D. Bancroft and since that time, set forth in print, with additions by the said authour. This short ansvver may serue for the clearing of the truth, vntill a larger confutation of the sermon be published.	Penry, John, 1559-1593.; Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610. Sermon preached at Paules Crosse the 9. of Februarie. Selections.	1590 (1590)	STC 19603; ESTC S114383	37,378	68

latter ages should bee euill spoken of But heere you will saye that wee ground something for the proofe of the Eldershippe vppon the place of Math. 18. Tell the Church c. and that wee bring in the Iewishe Sinagogue for some purpose in this question True it is wee doe so And because you neither knowe as it appeareth what wee inferre nor weare able to aunswere them being made knowen vnto you therefore you did wiselie to set downe in our name your owne absurdities which of themselues with out any confuter desire for shame to be buried vnder the earth That which we affirme is this And we appeale vnto the conscience of the reader whether wee speake the truth or not First we prooue that the offices of Pastors Doctors Elders c. are perpetually to continue in the Church because the Lord hath appointed them to bee members thereof Romans 12.6.7.8 M. Cart 1. reply pag. 140. 141. Counterpoison Answere to Briges slanders And because Saint Paule writing vnto Timothie maketh the retaining of them in the Churche of Christ not arbitrarie matters left to the discretion of the Church but a commaundement which is to bee kept inuiolable vntill the appearing of the Lord Iesus Secondly we affirme that our Sauiour Christ did establishe Mathew 18. these wordes Tell the Church this Gouernment of his house by the offices of Pastors Doctors and Elders In that he commaundeth vs when a brother doth not profite by the degrees of priuate admonition which hee there mencioneth that wee should acquaint the Church with his offende Tell the Church saith hee By the Church in this place wee say that either the whole multitude must bee ment or some one man as the Bishoppe Chauncellour c. or els the Elders ioyned together with the Pastour and Doctrour if there bee any Nowe you will not say that a man should goe and seeke remedie at the whole multitude when his brother offendeth him On the other-side if you say that by the Church in this place is ment some one man in the Church and so goe tell the Church should bee The phrase of speach also that on man should be taken for the Church is vnwarrantable goe tell one man in the Church as the Bishoppe or Chauncellour The exposition is diuers vvaies prooued to bee false Because the degrees of proceedings which our Sauiour Christ setteth downe dooth ouerthrow it For wee are commaunded from a priuate reproofe of our brother between vs and him to rise vnto an admonition before one or two witnesses and so from two or three not to come backe again to make his fault known before one witnesse as the Bishop or Chauncelour but before many vz. the Church gouernors as before is set downe And in this speeche tell the assemblie of Church wee say that our sauiour Christ pointing out by the spirit of prophesie the gouernement of the eldership vnder the gospell doth allude vnto the forme of the Iews gouernment in their Sinagogues vnto whom whosoeuer gaue not eare was accounted as an heathen or a publicane This M. Bancroft is the sum of that which wee affirme out of Math. 18. when you can bring any thing against this exposition of the place you shall be answered by the assistance of God And it shall appeare whensoeuer you or yours dare abide the publike triall of your cause that there are not onely many that affirme this but also many that wil proue this to bee most true In the meane time wee refer the matter vnto the conscience of the reader whether you and your vpholders in expounding tell the church to be complaine to the Bishop or chancelour that is tell one man in the Church or wee which interprete the same to bee tell the gouernors of the Church to wit the Pastor Doctor and Elders ioyned together beeing not one but many doe peruert the meaning of the scripture and as his iudgement in these things shall be conuinced so let him account of you and vs accordingly D. BANCROFT page 9. They had say these men in their sinagogues the ● priests we must haue in euery parish our pastors they their Leuite we our Doctors they their rulers of their sinagogues we our Elders they their leuittical treasurers we our Deacons ANSVVERE And what can you say against this saying of theirs if it be false why doe you not confute it your abilitie indeed to disprooue the afternoon you shewe in that you leaue it as you found it And that the reader may perceiue what madnes it were for you to go about to weaken any part heereof I will brieflie note out the places wherein these offices are mencioned both in the olde and new testament First then for the offices of Priestes and Leuites Numb 16 9.10 and Deut. 33.9.10 and there you shall see the Priests and Leuites so distinguished as although they were both of them to teach Iaacob the iudgements and Israell the lawe yet was the Prieste alone to put incense before the face of the Lord Now vnder the new Testament answerable vnto the Prieste and Leuite there is the Pastor and the Doctor Ephe. 4 11.12 and both of them appointed for the gathering together of the Saintes by the worke of the ministerie yet both of them distinguished in their speciall subiects The one of them to attend a Rom. 12.7.8 vpon the gift of teaching the other vpon exhortation the one of thē to be in an especiall fort b 1. Cor. 12.8 indued with the word of knowledge the other with the word of wisedome Concerning those who in the new c Acts 12.15 c 18.8 testament are called the rulers of the Sinagogue the spirit of God in the old nameth them d 2. Chro. 19. ● the Princes or the chiefe of the families who although they were not of the tribe of Leui yet were they appointed for the cause and iudgements of the Lorde as well as the Priestes and Leuites themselues In like manner 2. Tim. 5.17 Rom. 12.8 Act. 20.28 1. Cor. 12.28 there are Elders in the newe Testament bearing a distinct office from the Pastor and the doctor and yet appointed to rule ouersee the house of God by vertue of their owne proper function Lastly as vnder the lawe wee finde Church treasures vnto whose custody 1. Chro. 26.20 28 2. Chro. 31.13.15 the dedicate thinges belonging to the sacrifices and the maintenaunce of the Leuites were committed So in the kingdome of Christ vnder the newe couenaunt are Deacons appointed Act. 6.2.3 Rom. 12 8.9 1. Tim. 3.6 whose office is neither to medle with the word and Sacraments nor yet with the gouernment of the house of God but onely to attend vppon the goods of the Church and the right distribution of them to the vse of the poore c. I omit heere that as the Gebonites and the Nethinimes were imployed about the inferior and baser offices of the temple and tabernacle so the holy ghost

to atchieue his purpose And that is neither to father vpon vs such thinges as we neuer maintained nor yet to bring the testimonies of men to oppugn our conclusions whose grounds he is not able to shake but to set downe that which we holde indeed and with reasons rather to answere our premisses then with authorities to strike at our conclusions The contrary dealing may colour and white line the breaches of his cause for a time but in the end it will prooue to be the ruine thereof Vnconscionable and sophistical dealing can neuer be able to stand any long time He and his Masters would gladly beare the Magistrat in hand that we deny the congregations in England where the word is truly preached and the sacraments rightly administred to be the visible churches of God wheras the truth is that the Bishops and not we doe maintaine this error Let the reader judge whether I truly accuse them by this which followeth The visible church of God wheresoeuer it bee hath the power of binding ●nd loosing annexed vnto it as our sauiour Christ teacheth vs. Mathew 18. which authority is so essentially tied vnto the visible church that wheresoeuer this power is to bee found there the church of Christ is also visible Our Bb. are scismatickes and deny the assemblie of England to be visible church of God booke of Martins page 5. 6. and wheresoeuer there is a visible church there this authority cannot bee denied to be The which point that reuerend father M. Iohn Fox teacheth more at large Now the reader cannot be ignorant that our Bishops wil neuer grant that the visible congregations in England ought to haue this power of binding and loosing for then should they manifest themselues to bee professed tyrants The crime therefore of Scisme and Donatisme which M. Bancroft and the Prelates would fasten vpon vs doth justly cl●aue vnto them selues And if any of our poore brethren be caried away to thinke otherwise of the congregations of England which inioy the woorde truly preached and the right vse of the Sacrament● VVe cease not to pray that the Lord would reforme their iudgements But woe bee vnto our Bishops which are the cause of this their stumbling and maintainers of their error For the pore brethren doe holde nothing in this point but that which the learned fathers as M. Bancroft calleth them haue decreed And you shall see in this Treatise that he seeth no reason why Popery being now abollished Sermon pag. 3 wee should not reply vppon the determinations of these fathers as other men in time past of a great iudgement as we are haue done Let our Bishops then and their vpholders whisper into the eare of the Magistrate what they will it shall bee prooued in the end that they are the scismatickes and not we It shall appear that they are growing to make a body of their owne wherewith the church of God in a while if they hold on their course can haue no mote to do then in times past in had with the scismaticall Donatists The deuill indeede hath within this twelmoneth shewed himselfe to bee grieuously wounded in their persons because he hath raged so mightily as these 32. yeares his furie was neuer seene so great against the truth as at this present That vile and scurrilous Palmphlet An almond a Patrot latey suffered to come abroad by their priuity if not allowance and in their defence doth euidently shew that sathan feeleth the power and sway which he was wont to bear by vertue of the hierarchie to be greatly weakned And because he feareth that his time vnder their gouernment cannot be long therefore he meaneth now to infect the aire at once with all his contagions The strength which they get by such leud and filthie stuffe the discredit which thereby they worke either vnto the cause or the men and women whome they suffer to bee so vnworthilie traduced is not other then it were to bee wished that seeing they will needs be filthy they would publish such another booke euery day That then it might appeare indeede whose sonnes they are And this is all the confutation that I thinke so godles leud a scrole to deserue For thy selfe good reader thou seest the time of triall to be now at hand euen at the doore If thou meanest to be partaker of Christes kingdome after this life take heede that neither the feare of men nor the loue of the world draw thee to shrinke from any part of that truth which the Lorde hath reueiled in his word The Lord saith that whosoeuer shall be ashamed of him or his worde that is any part of his truth before men Luk. 9.26 of him shall the sonne of man be ashamed when he commeth in his glory VVell I thinke it now no time to dally with the Lord and his word but let vs craue strength at his hand that we stand vnrebukeable vnto the day of his appearance A BRIEFE DISCOVERY OF THE VNTRVTHES AND SLANDERS AGAINST Reformation and the fauourers thereof contained in D. Bancrofts Sermon D. BANCROFTS TEXT 1. Iohn 4.1 Dearely beloued beleeue not euery spirite b●●●●ie the spirites whether they be of God For many false Prophets are gone out into the world ANSVVERE IT hath bene the ancient custome of Sathan and his instruments in all ages I answere not the word but the abuse of the word to abuse the holy worde and name of God as a ground vnto all their vngodly proceedings against the Lorde and his Saints that there by they might haue some colour of their persecutions and wicked attempts against the truth and professors thereof That I bee not tedious in a matter too apparant hence it is that in all the condemnations of the holy Martyrs of Christ by that Romane Tyrant We see all their processes to begin in the name of God the accusasions laid to the charge of the Saints to bee so boulstred out with the testimonies of holy Scripture as though the spirite of God had none to condemne of heresie scisme sedition and treason saue onely the members and messengers of Christ Iesus And therefore M. Bancroft if you begin with Scripture and as I may say in the name of God begin to speake against God against his blessed verity and people you doe but your kind in treading the steppes of your predecessours You haue your forefathers the Scribes and Pharises that Antichristian beast of Rome his Cardinals Bishops Legates inquisitors and all others that haue coloured their garments with the bloud of the Lords chosen for your presidents and examples The delusion of your course could not bee so great if you did shewe your selfe in your colours Your Sermon declareth that your affection serueth you rather to fight against the truth with fire and fagot then by sober writing or speaking to stand in the defence of your cause Well you deale against false Prophetes Scismatiques giddy spirites disturbers of the church enemies

needs exceed that number by many degrees Not ecclesiastical Lastly which is your 3. slanderous absurditie who told you that the gouernment ordained in the 11. of Numbers was Ecclesiasticall The very place it selfe and all the circumstances thereof doe prooue it to bee ciuill And so our men that haue written of this argument would haue taught you Master Cornel. Bertram de potialud cap. 6. if you had sought the trueth of the cause out of their writings The holy story it selfe maketh the matter to bee out of controuersie which is this in effect Numb 11. There grew an vniuersall murmuring among the people because they had not flesh to eat The authoritie of the rulers ouer thousands rulers of hundreths c. ordained by the aduise of Iethro reached not beyond the number allotted vnto thē So that the defection of the people being generall and it may bee many of their rulers ioyned with them they would not haue an answere nor bee pacified by the inferior officers but they come to Moses the chiefe gouernor would haue him to giue thē flesh Moses being sore vexed with the outcries against him expostulateth with the Lord thinking himselfe to be hardly delt with that there was none apointed for the restraining of the general ●●●●itude but he himselfe alone Herupon the Lord commanded him to gather 70. of the Elders of Israell Verse 16. such saith the text as hee knew to be governors of the people the Lord would appoint thē as assistants with him to take the generall charge of the people that when the multitude would not be ruled by their inferior officers as the rulers of 1000. c. these 70. elders should be armed by the Lord with authority and gifts to beare the burthen with him and it was peformed accordingly Now M. Bancroft for whose assistance were these Elders appointed the word expresly setteth down that they were to assist Moses and therefore the offices wherunto they were ordeined were ciuil wheras if they had bin ecclesiastical they should haue bin appointed helpers vnto Aaron not vnto Moses For Moses at this time was no more to intermedle with the priesthood because Aaron his sons Num. 16.10 Exod. 28.1 were now consecrated thervnto the tribe of Leui allotted to assist Aaron euen to take the charge with him of the whole congregation Numb 3.7 in respect of the tabernacle The last time that euer Moses dealt in the office of the priesthood was at the consecration of Aaron his sons but frō the time that Aaron was receued in to the office Moses neuer medled with it any more Leu 8.90 Exod. 28.1 29.44 38.44 30.7 Leuit. 1.5 cap. 8. 9. Num. 16.10 Num. 11.23 So the cause is to clear that they who were appointed to assist Moses not Aaron w●● ciuil ecclesiastical rulers Where it is said than the 70. Elders prophisied it can no more proue them to belong to the gouernment of the church then the like gift bestowed vppon Saule 1. Sam. 10.10 can make him a church-officer Seeing then M. Bancroft the platforme of Gouernment whereof you speake was neither appointed at mount Siuai nor by the counsell of Iethro nor yet ordained for the regiment of the Church but for the vse of the ciuill state and seeing you can father this exposition vpon none of these whom afterward you call the cleargie and layitie factions the consequent is that your owne ignoraunce in the cause of Christs gouernement which you oppugne hath coyned vs this most vnlearned and sencelesse exposition wherein you doe no more I grant then that which is the common custome of all your fellowes And that is to imagine that these who by the goodnes of God are seen in this cause can bring no better reasons for the defence of the same then you whose ignoraunce therein is manifest and ridiculous vnto vnto all men And indeed for your part M. Bancroft if you had any modesty in you shame of the world to omitte the conscience and sound feare of God which ought to be in a Minister of the Gospell as you would bee accounted you would giue your selfe little rest vntill either you had named vs some of these very many who affirme as you haue set downe or make open confession of your great ignorance in that cause whereunto you haue beene alwaies so great an enemy The reader may well know that you haue set downe these thinges rather of meere ignorance then of single malice only because otherwise you that are so ready to take any aduantage against your aduersaries and their arguments would haue bene glad to haue found so many breaches in one poore reason of theirs And though you would neuer so faine auoid this blot of your insufficiency yet your owne words following do witnesse that you haue spoken of the cause euen according vnto the deep knowledge that you haue thereof where you say that the Iewes in their particular Sinagogues did imitate this gouernement ordained by Moses in mount Sinai at the counsell of Iethro As though euery particuler Sinagogue of the Iewes could affoord 70. elders that were knowen to be the gouernors of the people to attend vppon the regiment of the Church It appeares that you are well seene either in the ciuill or Ecclesiasticall politie of the Iewes which appoint these elders vnto their particuler Sinagogs You might as well saye that wee in England in the gouernement of our particuler parishes by Church-wardens and Side-men doe resemble the maiestie that is in the assembly of Star chamber or at the Counsel table as that the Iewes in their particuler Sinagogues did imitate the gouernement of the 70. Elders who being ioyned in authoritie with Moses are manifested to bee the highest ciuill officers that were in all the congregation of Israel and both before and after the captiu●ty they are saide by the learned to haue the highest authority in the Common-wealth of the Iewes next vnto the supreame Magistrate If you had bene but meanely seene in Iosephus to omitte other writers you could not haue beene ignorant of this point The name Elder it may be is that deceiues you thinking belike that wheresoeuer wee read of any called Elders in the Scriptures wee presently take the place as making for the Eldership vnder the Gospell Wee thinke farre otherwise then so because wee finde the Gouernours of the Common wealth Reade Genesis 50.7 Iosua● 6.11 as well as the rulers of the Church to be called Elders by the spirit of God Whatsoeuer then you say of false Prophets as you speake much of them in your Sermons the reader seeth that at your first assault of the cause of Christs Gouernement you haue manifested your selfe to bee of their number that speake euill of the thinges they knowe not which the holy Ghost maketh to be a marke of these false teachers 2. Pet. 2.13 by whom the way of truth in the