This rule therefore that because it is first in time before another it is in order to bee first treated vpon before an other or because other as yet were not therefore that which was before made a perfect regiment is no perfect nor good argument Which argument being grounded on so vncertaine and weakâ— foundation all that is built thereon is easily shattered The Papistes for the traditions of the Church which they call the vnwritten worde or veritie vnwritten vse the like argument against the authoritie of Gods written word and veritie of the Scripture The word was deliuered by tradition of preaching before it was deliuered by writing therefore traditions are of no lesse authoritie nor lesse to be beleeued then the written worde and holie scripture yea the Churches authoritie is aboue the scriptures and is the iudge thereof Thus doe the Papistes encroche from the time to the authoritie as our brethren heere doe Nowe as this reason faileth both for the Senioritie of time and forestalling the order of place and much more for claiming any prioritie in dignitie and most of all for inferring any such honour as perfection of regiment so for the truthe of this proposition that The Church of God was perfect in all her regiment before there was any Christian Prince I can not yet sée howe directly it can be iustified For if this were true then there neede no regiment of Christian Princes at all And howe then haue the Christian Princes anie authoritie at all in Eccl. causes Or â—f they haue anie howe came they by it if the Churches regiment were perfect or the Church perfect in all her regiment before there were anie Christian Prince Or whereto serueth the Christian Princes supream authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes if not to make the regiment of the Church in better estate For otherwise the Church were as good without it if she be no better in her Regiment by it then she was before shée had it But it is not so both the church and her regiment is bettered by it Which your selues are faine in part to confesse euen heere in the conclussion of your argument saying of God who hath most mercifully and wisely so established the same to wit the churches regiment that as with the comfortable aide of christian Magistrates it may singulerlie prosper and flourish c. And againe for the church craueth helpe defence of christian Princes to continue and go fore-ward more peaceablye and profiâ—ablye to the setting vp of the kingdome of Christ. Although héere ye will affoorde no more but this yet if there were no more this is inough to ouerthrow your saying that the church of God was perfect in all her Regiment before there was any christian prince For if this comfortable aide helpe and defence to continue and goe forewarde in so great matters as more peaceably and profitably to the setting vp of the kingdome of Christe were taken awaie then the church of God though I graunt it may continue and against the aduersaries thereof preuaile Yet should she not be perfect in al her Regiment needing this comfortable ayde help and defence of christian Princes And the setting vp of the kingdome of Christe shoulde with more trouble and lesse profit go fore-warde yea rather it should go back-warde and he hindered though it continue and not so singulerly flourish and prosper but decay And is this so smal a matter in your eyes brethren as that it nothing appertained to the Regiment of the church but that crauing all this of christian princes and so without them wanting the same ye dare so boldly auouch that she is perfect in all her Regiment without it Doth she craue that she wanteth not Then is she a wanton Doeth she want it then is she not perfect in all her Regiment Or doeth it not greatly pertaine vnto her Regiment Or doe yee thinke that this shall salue the matter because the churche may continue and againste the aduersaries thereof preuaile without it Our question nowe is not of the substance and beeing of the church but of the Regiment of it Neither yet simply of the Regiment but whether she were perfect in all her Regiment before any christian princes were or no The church I graunt was then and shall continue euer and she had euen then a Regiment also Yea and that Regiment in soone respectes might be called perfecte for that time while there were not such open professed christian princes to be foster fathers and noursing moothers of the church as God bee praysed now there are For concerning the Rectors of the church then as they were then more perfect and singuler persons so had they more perfect and singuler extra-ordinary offices and withall more excellent giftes to be able to gouerne it the better But this argueth so little the churches perfection then in al her Regiment vnderstanding the same of all her ordinary externall Regiment whereupon our question is which Regiment shee was not then so perfectly come vnto that rather their extra-ordinary gifts and offices of Apostles Euangelistes Prophetes c. were added for that time to supplye furnish that part of the Regiment thereof that was afterward to be made more perfect concerning the ordinary state by the accesse of the Christian Princes following Except therefore our Brethren intende vtterlie to shake off all Christian Princes and account their supreame authority in Church causes if not now to be nought yet to be nought worth and altogether vnnecessary to the perfection of the Churches Regiment how can this be any good argument to infirme it now because admitting this also were true there were no ChristiaÌ„ Princes theÌ„ what do they inferre here-upoÌ„ that there is no more néede héerein of Christian Princes now then there was then presupposing that then héerein there was no néede at all of them that were a very suspitious and perrilous conclusion For although theÌ„ there were the lesse néede of them because that néede was then other-wise supplied yet those supplies not continuing and malice increasing both of aduersaries without and of Hipocrites within and the giftes also that remaine decreasing there is now farre more neede of the Christian Princes supreame gouernment to the perfecting of the Churches Regiment And so the state of the time for the regiment of the church differing the argument of the Regiment from the time then to the time now is defectiue But if they néeded then héerein the helpe of christian Princes as they do nowe then was not the church perfect in all her Regiment otherwise than as it was extraordinarylie supplied before the christian Princes helpe and comfortable aide was added Before which time those temporary supplies comming to the church as the Manna and other extraordinary helpes made the Iewes estate to flourish prosper and goe fore-ward in the Desertes though they ceased when they came to the land of promise So the church might bee
before rehearsed Whereas we hope there is no Congregation so vtterlie destitute of preaching albeit that the Homilies their selues being as is confessed both godlie learned be both a preaching and an applying of the Scriptures may be well vsed of anie neuer so godlie learned a Minister and much more the lesse learned that he is And no doubt though we name not perticular persons which we might well doe and I for my part that in open disputatioÌ„ of this matter with some not of the meanest of our Breth that before the Maior theÌ„ chiefest of the Citie haue heard diuerse godlie zealous worshipfull seriously acknowledge great fruit by the hearing of Homilies yea and some that haue plainly confessed of themselues that before being verie ignorant Papists though they haue not onely ben conuerted by the hearing of the godly learned Homilies nor onely by hearing preachers nor onely by reading the Scriptures nor onely by praier to God who only openeth molliffeth lightneth and conuerteth the heart but that God hath done it sometimes by all these meanes together somtimes by one sometimes by another with conference disputing other godly meanes yet among all they haue openly professed that God hath conuerted theÌ„ froÌ„ their Papistrie instructed theÌ„ from their ignorance reformed theÌ„ from their wickednes not a little but verie much by the often reading and hearing of printed sermoÌ„s or Homelies of our owne Countrimen of other nations as of Caluine Bullinger Gualter Hemingius diuers others whether this be true or no wheras our Breth demand how many we are able to shew let euerie man shew himselfe as he hath found I appeale to euerie mans conscience for his owne experience in this point I doubt not but if they will not vnthankfully hide it many thousands in this land would rise vp with heart and mouth confesse that they haue found no small comfort edification by the reading and hearing of such godlie and learned Homilies or Sermons as in our English tongue are set forth Againe who seeth not but he that is so blind that wil see nothing that these parts of a true pastors duty which both the prophets Ezech. Zac. reherse namely to strengtheÌ„ the weak to heale the sick to bind the brokeÌ„ to seek the lost to bring home that is caried away to cherish the yoÌ„g laÌ„bs to feed the stroÌ„g sheep c. caÌ„not be performed of any man by such means as these but only by such a one as is a godly lerned shepheard I grant these duties cannot be performed by such meanes as these of any man that is altogether ignorant vtterly vnlearned such as our breth haue heretofore described But I denie this that these duties can be performed only by such an one as is a godly and learned shepheard in such sense that he may not withall vse these meanes Wherfore these poore helps of prescript forme of reading of praiers of homelies such like when they are alleaged to maintaine the ignorance of vnskilful pastors are called no beteer by the iudgemeÌ„t of God but the instruments of foolish Idoll shepheards which haue a certain pretence of pastorall office but in effect are altogether vnmeete for the same eueÌ„ as Idols Idiots are good for nothing but able to do much hurt concerning whoÌ„ our sauiour Christ pronounceth this fearful sentence If the blind leade the blind they shal both fal into the pit How loÌ„g therefore shal we suffer the blind to leade the blind to the destruction of both Let vs therfore now at length remoue these blind guides place in their steads faithful ouerseers that may leade the flock of Christ into the waie of saluation How is now the promise kept which our breth made so late before that they would derogate nothing heere froÌ„ the dignitie of those Homilies which theÌ„selues confesse to be both godly learned And yet here eueÌ„ the verie next page both Homilies generally also the prescript form of reading of praiers such like are not only conteÌ„ptuously called pore helps but are in reproch termed the instrumeÌ„ts of foolish Idol shepheards that is worst of all they say they are called no better by the iudgement of God But do they find this iudgemeÌ„t or calling of God out of Zach. or Ezech or anie other of the Prophets Do any of theÌ„ call a prescript form of godly praiers or of godly learned Homilies or sermoÌ„s by these terms Had not the Iewes a prescript forme of all their sacrifices of many praiers Psalmes coÌ„posed digested prescribed to the children of Corath to other Priests and Leuites And had they not also many Sermâ—ns written by Moses and by the other prophets which they often vsed on the Saboth daies and other feasts to reade in the congregations publiklie without anie alteration of them or the addition so much as of any exposition or exhortation gathered on them And did they not in so doing euen all these things that here are mentioned notwithstanding all things were prescribed vnto them And yet were they no Idiots nor Idols nor the blind leaders of the blind nor these sentences of Christ nor of these Prophets wer applied vnto them nor the following of the prescribed seruice are of them called the Instruments of foolish and Idoll shepheards Or what godlie and learned Commentarie expoundeth these wordes of the Prophet for the prescript forme of praier and Homelies Caluine on these wordes of Zacharie chap. 11. verse 15. Take to thee the instrument of a foolish shepheard saith on this wise The Prophet heere teacheth that whereas God hath cast off the care of the people there shall be some vaine shew of gouernment but out of which it may easilie be gathered that God exerciseth no more the office of the Pastor as though he should saie the people should be so forsaken that notwithstanding they should thinke themselues yet for a while to be and to remaine vnder the safegard of God Euen as we doe see in Poperie those proud boastings to flie about the church to be neuer forsaken of God Although therfore the truth of God hath hetherto bene ouerwhelmed notwithstanding it was the true Church which was stuffed with wicked superstitions Euen as therefore the Papistes boast and are contented with a title onelie so we know the Iewes pretended their priuiledges these also were their weapons when they would coape and conflict with the Apostles What are not wee the inheritance of God Hath hee not promised that there should be a perpetual sanctuarie to himselfe among vs Is not the sacerdotall vnction a certaine and infallible signe of his grace Euen as therefore the Iewes puffed out those foolish boastings against the Apostles so also at this daie the Papists doe shroude all their shames vnder the title of the Church This now dooth Zacharie vnderstand
foorth their heartes shoulde fayle them And many other toward Laborers that on the Lordes calling were but late entred into this Haruest begin to stande in a mammering and drawe backe except a number of these our too forwarde brethren And therefore indéede we had néede on all handes without ceasing moste earnestly to pray to God to thrust foorth moe laborers into his haruest and to comfort them that be thrust in by him least both Laborers haruest all waxe thinner and more backwarde than it dooth Praie Praie Now vpon all these foresaid meanes our brethren make their conclusion saying And in the meane time till God shall blesse vs with a sufficient number of learned Pastors to take some extraordinary and temporall order for ouer-seeing the Churches that although they cannot be all sufficientlie enstructed and gouerned yet so many shall not be altogether destitute of all knowledge and spirituall gouernement as there are nowe in this moste corrupt state of the Churche in which wee haue hetherto continued These are very hard spéeches against the present state of the Churche of Englande and in truth by no meanes iustifiable that it is a moste corrupt state of the Church and so hath hetherto continued For if it be now in a most corrupt state then was it not more corrupt in the time of all the popish superstitions If wee nowe as our brethren in their Preface to this Learned discourse confesse maintaine the true and holie faith and haue the Gospell freely preached as in this learned discourse they also graunt are we so corrupt as when manifest errors in doctrine and faith were maintained and the preaching of the Gospell suppressed and persecuted And yet we debarre them not altogether of the title of the Church though a Church exceeding much corrupted Or doth the most corruption of the Church lie in matters or rather in formes of discipline Admitting we haue a discipline that were corrupted notwithstanding professing the holy truth in all pointes of faith and doctrine The Saxon Churches haue in some pointes the like discipline to that our brethren contend for and yet in some materiall pointes of the Lordes supper they hold as grosse if not farre grosser errors and corruption than doe the Papists And is our state being in that and all other pointes of doctrine most sincere more corrupt than theirs Which I speake not as insulting vpon them but with pitie and reuerence but onely to note our brethrens vnthankefull not acknowledging of our exceeding more sincere and farre better estate than theirs and manie others as the Grecians Armenians Indians Aethiopians c. which are yet acknowledged to be the the Churches of Christ albeit all differ in discipline and are not free from errors euen in doctrine which God be praised we are by our breth owne confession But why doe our Brethren thus exclaime on the estate of our Church as a most corrupt state Forsooth because as they saie and doe imagine there are many that are altogether destitute of all knowledge and spirituall gouernment If they meane Papists and wicked worldlings where are not some and that too many intermingled in the Church of GOD And so there may be many we graunt lamenting it among vs but not of vs. And the more I feare by reason of these garboyles among our selues But if they bée the children of God and the true Church indéede and haue yéeres of vnderstanding I hope nay I am sure there is none no not one such as is altogether destitute of all knowledge and spirituall gouernment set a side naturall Idiotes which are as infants and without discretion Nay not the most of the worldlie hypocrites are altogether destitute of all knowledge of God and of his word and of all partes of spirituall gouernment although they knowe not all pointes or manie pointes not so exactlie as other doe or as their selues should doe I speake not this to defende anie mannes default and corruption in these thinges but to shew that this is a greate deale more aggrauated than eyther needeth or is true or than our Brethren haue anie iust cause to accuse so hainouslie the whole state of the Church of England to bee a most corrupted state But sée nowe howe our malecontented Brethren finding such a grieuous fault of this most corrupt state of the Church though they might haue all these meanes that they haue heere deuised to reforme the same graunted vnto them yet are they faine in the end to confesse that this their Learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment cannot take place but that they must take some extraordinarie and temporall order for ouerseeing of the Churches in the meane time vntill GOD shall blesse vs with a sufficient number of learned pastors So that they cannot for all these meanes helpes prouisions supplyes desires or anie other thing that they are able with all their learned heads consulting together imagine howe their Ecclesiasticall regiment should be set vp And yet wée must first downe out of hande and awaye with that Ecclesiasticall regiment that we haue cre euer not onelie theyrs shall come in place but or euer wee haue or can yet deuise how wée shall deale in the meane time till GOD shall blesse vs with a sufficient number of learned pastors Which when this till and this sufficient number will be filled vp to our Brethrens contentation is not héere limited by them nor we are able to coniecture But coulde not our Brethren haue forséene this before which héere now after all their debating and deuising they beginne to sée and are driuen to confesse And how then must all Pastors that bee not learned preachers be presentlie turned out and no longer retayned Or if they may lawfullie for a time which with all when it shall stint is vncertaine continue still and bée retained how then are these thinges either true or tollerable in them Shall wee tollerate such notorious and most corrupt wickednesse as they crie out vpon till God shall blesse vs with a sufficient number of learned pastors And till GOD shall thus blesse vs what extraordinarie and temporall order of ouerseers of the Churches will God blesse if hee haue flatlie forbidden all other than that onelie order which our Brethren pretend that God so straightlie hath commanded Or what extraordinarie or temporall order can or dare anie or all the Church auouch or presume to take vpon them to appoint or tollerate anie time If the ouerseers that our Brethren vrge and the orders of Ecclesiasticall gouernment which they set downe bee of GOD commaunded for ordinarie and perpetuall to all ages and Churches either they woulde haue vs wilfullie to transgresse Gods commaundement without anie speciall warrant on presumption of their dispensation for a time or else they must néedes graunt and that is indéede the verie truth which they dare not for shame openlie confesse although of fine force they are constrayned
the man and of the woman praying or prophecying vse his heade which was S. Paules principall conclusion If he be couered that is not aunswerable to the comelinesse of the man If he be vncouered that is lesse aunswerable if not more vnfit for the comelinesse of the woman What shall we here doe yea though we imagined this third were an Hermaphrodites that is of both genders Man and woman except the same party also had two heades the one to bee vncouered and the other to be couered What a straunge deuise therefore is this and what a number of impossible vnnaturall and monstrous absurdities do arise if a man woulde stande in examining this interpretation I speake not this for the dishonor of them whome I honour with good heart as singuler ornaments of Gods Church in our age And yet Luther so excellent an instrument of Gods trueth and glory when hee writhed some textes of Scripture by affection more then by considerate and indifferent weighing of them into what vnnecessary misconstructions and oppositions to the plaine and easy trueth and to his owne self did he fall and caused many by his too great estimation to fall with him And therefore we must take héede howe we depend too much on Men. And if wee will holde vs alwayes to Gods worde so take it that we cary not that also away after our owne construing If it be playne and easie not to lap it in ambiguities If it be harde and doubfull to way it with other places and consider all the circumstaunces groundes and occasions And if nothing be against the faith to go with the best with the mo the better in the sense that séemeth most probable Which Beza here doth not who though in many places he deserue singuler prayse yet in some places he is too singuler which deserueth so little praise that now and then he himselfe forsakes his former translation and either on better aduice comes to other mens or chaungeth his former translation with another of his owne euen where no necessitie nor sufficiēt cause doth enforce him as euen vpon this place 1. Cor. 14.34 cited by our Brethren 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And the common translation is there true and playne ynough Mulieres vestrae in ecclesiis taceant Let your Women keepe silence in the Churches Where not onely Erasmus but Caluine also reteineth the vsuall deriued word euen from the very Gréeke in Ecclesiis whome all the commentaries of the newe writers that I haue looked vpon do follow And all our translations yea euen the Geneua translation also And yet doth Beza forsake it and translate it in Coetibus in companies or assemblies and he altereth this againe in conuentibus in meetinges together sayth that the vulgar translation in the Churches is not apt ynough in this place also in the vers following Because that a woman also is in the church that is of the number of the faithfull when she is at home Neither yet is she biddē to bee silent but in the publike assembly of the church And is this a sufficient reason to alter this word in the churches Who knoweth not that knoweth ought the this word church as it is commonly taken signifieth here not only the place where the sacred assemblies of the faithfull are made but also the faithfull persons so assembled was Beza in doubt least if this interpretation shold haue stood that women shold not speak in the Churches they shold haue bin thought to haue bin forbiddē to speak any where but to be continually in euery place silent because wheresoeuer they be yea though at home they be stil in the church that is of the number of the faithful What a néedlesse fear was this yet if he would haue mended the translation to stop this néedles fear shold he haue mended it to call it a cōpany or assembly or meeting together which though it séem to giue women some licence to speak wher no assembly or cōpany or meeting together is yet doth this indéed restrain them no further than the occasiō that Paul did speak on driues vnto True it is he afterward expoūds himself saying they are not biddē to hold their peace but in the publike cōpany of the church but these words the publike cōpany of the church are in neither of his translations For there is only said in companies or meetings together And yet what he meaneth by the publike companies of the church taking the church as heere he calleth it may not a woman speak in many companies or meetinges together of the faithful if the housholds of the faithful be called churches also may she not speake in her house neither nor to the assemblie of her houshold for fere she shold transgres this precept if they say that is but a priuate church Paul meaneth of the publike assemblies of the church although women then shall gain a great deal more liberty by this glosse then by this hard translatiō of the text yet how much better had it bin both for Bezaes estimation our edification especially for the matter trueth it self for Beza to haue left these nice poynts to haue yéelded to his M. Caluine that as necessity might require this precept of the ordinary course maketh no absolute debar to al manner of women but that nowe and then some may speake lawfully yea and their voyce is requisite euen in the most sacred publike and greatest assemblies or meetings together of the Churches I confesse as I sayd that other excellent men also vse this interpretation but they are more naked thereon then Beza is nor I accoumpt them comparable to him But neither he nor they do so satisfy the simplicitie of the text herein as Musc. and Peter Martyr do Musc. vpon these wordes euery woman praying and prophecying sayth they aske here howe a Woman shameth her heade if she prophecy bare headed when about the end of the 14. Chapter hee commaundeth them to holde their peace in the Church because it is a shame for a Woman to speake in the Churche and 1. Tim. 2. he sayth but I permit not a woman to teache What neede is there say they to bid a Woman not to prophecy bare-headed when shee may not doe it no not couered I aunswere he restraineth a Womans rashnesse that they shoulde not as often-times they are bablatiue leape foorthe to teache and prophecy beeing forgetfull of their sexe Neuerthelesse in the meane season hee doth not extinguish the spirite with the which some beeing inspired did prophecy by foretelling thinges to come Such as were Philip the Deacons daughters and many others which did prophecy according to the foretelling of Ioel Chapter 2. where wee reade this And after these thinges I will poure my spirite vpon all flesh and your sonnes and your daughters shal prophecy For such he pronounceth that they shall shame their head if they pray or prophecy bareheaded Of other he wold giue
what other thing do the verie Papists alleadge for the most part of their excommunications more then contumacie and contempt Yea but say our brethren this contumacie and contempt is of the Churches admonition In déede so sayth Christ in the place héere cited Math. 18.17 If he heare not the Church But can our brethren héere vnderstand by the namâ— of Church some few persons chosen by the Church and may not the Papists do so to haue not they also their Consistories and that many of them of mo persons then one yea if the Church choose one man as for example their Bishop or Pastor before whome those matters should be heard debated decided doth not the contumacy and contempt against that one man encrease the sinne as well as the contumacie and contempt against any other persons that the Church may choose to this purpose I speake not in defence of the Popish excommunications not acknowledging them as they stand now in open resisting of the truth reuealed to be the true Church Why the Popish Churches excom is no true excomm so that they being now neither of nor properly in the true Church can not rightly expell others out of the true Church in and of which their selues haue no paâ—â— for all their craking of the bare name and therefore their Excommunications are of no force CoÌ„tumaty But if in déede they were as would God if it pleased him they were of and in the true Church as by the grace of God his name be blessed for it we are and in lesser crimes the contempt and contumacie of the Churches admonition giuen by a few persons chosen by the Church thereunto be worthy excommunication then where the Church hath chosen but one that is to wit a Bishop to execute her authority in those matters the contumacy and contempt against his iust and lawfull admonitions is not so much against that one man as against the Churches and so is worthy of the same castigation This testimonie héere rehearsed Matth. 18.15.16.17 Matth. 18.15.16.17 I trust we haue already sufficiently shewed how it maketh nothing at all for any such Seniors as our brethren before alleaged it for and much lesse for any theyr authority of excommunicating nor prescribeth any certaine order in what manner or by what persons anie Excommunication should be made against the offenders which there it speaketh of as we haue heard thereon the diuers iudgements not only of the auncient Fathers but of our best brethren As for the 2. Thess. 3.6 c. the Apostle hath these words 2. Thess. 3.6 VVe commaund you brethren in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that ye withdraw your selues from euery brother that walketh inordinately and not after the institution that he receyued of vs And in the 11. verse Verse 11. For we heare that there are some among you walking inordinately working not at all but be busie bodies But to such we denounce and beseech in our Lord Iesus Christ that laboring with silence they eate their bread And in the 14. verse Verse 14. But if any obey not our word note him by an Epistle and haue no companie with him that he may be ashamed What kind of persons he séemeth héere to note and what fault he findeth in them I ouerpasse True it is he would haue them first induced by all gentle meanes but if thereby they will not be reformed he yet commaundeth them not héere to be seperated by Excommunication though they haue well deserued it Neither yet in this solemne denouncing â—oth he Excommunicate any but would haue them write vnto him of such inordinate persons insinuating that he himselfe would Excommunicate them as he had done with the incestuous person at Corinthus and with Hymeneus Alexander and Philetus But now our brethren foresâ—eing that this is nothing to the fortifying of their Seniory they returne to that point to aunswere the obiections made against it But it may be obiected say they that hetherto appeareth not so great vse of this Consistory The learned disc Pag. 94. why it should be thought necessary for Excommunication neither doth S. Paule make mention of it in all places where he speaketh of Excommunication In good time be it spoken not onely it may be obiected Bridges but it is obiected Our Obiection that hitherto appeereth not so great vse of this Consistorie why it should be thought necessarie for Excommunication or for anything else hauing beene so little or not in vse at all for any necessary proofe or vse thereof and the Church of Christ hauing continued so manie hundreth yéeres vtterly without it As for all these examples of Excommunicating the incestuous person Hymenaeus Philetus Alexander c. or any other testimonie of Saint Paule héere mentioned What is héere eyther necessarie or likely that may be referred to a Consistorie Neyther will we so much obiect this that Saint Paule maketh no mention of it in all places where he speaketh of Excommunication but that he maketh no mention of it in any place where he speaketh of Excommunication And heere let vs marke our Brethrens confession for if this may be obiected that hitherto appeareth not so great vse of this Consistory that it should be thought necessary for Excom then all that hitherto is alleaged may be thought vnnecessary to inferre this and this appearing that it may be so thought of all that hitherto hath been alleaged let our Brethren looke better to that that is to come to alleage such proues as whereby it should be thought more necessary But to these obiections say our brethren we aunswere that although the simple institution of Christ The learned disc pag. 94. and approbation of the holy Ghost should suffice vs to thinke it necessary yet there are many necessary vses thereof to be alleaged And to this aunswere we reply if this place can be shewed and proued so to be Bridges where this simple institution of Christ and approbation of the holy Ghost was made Our Brethrens aunswer to our obiection speaking of the state of the new testament and since the time of Christes incarnation it shall suffice vs forthwith simply to thinke it necessary But if this be rather supposed and threaped vpon vs then shewed and proued vnto vs our Brethren haue to pardon vs if we thinke it not so necessary or rather to aske pardon of God that dare thus without plaine and manifest proofe pretend the simple institution of Christ and the holy Ghostes approbation of it But to our further satisfaction to prooue this they tell vs that there are many necessarie vses thereof to be alleaged let vs therefore heare also these so many and so necessary vses The learned disc pag. 94. 95. For whereas our Sauiour Christ say they commaundeth in priuate offences the matter to be brought before the congregation except you vnderstand thereby the congregation or assemblie of Elders there shall follow horrible
necessitie vnto them Or whether we will yéeld or no so that they can mooue them that haue authoritie to put this forme in practise and to seeke by lawfull and ordinarie means saie they that it maie take place that it may please God to giue it good successe at this time to be imbraced we maie fulfill the rest of our course with ioy When indéed if it should take place or that it pleased God to giue it that successe which they call good at this time or at anie time hereafter by these means which as we haue séene are neither ordinarie nor orderlie nor lawfull nor reasonable nor tending to Gods glorie nor to the churches profit nor the safetie and souereigntie of hir Maiestie nor the honour of them that haue authoritie nor to the custome or fréedome of the Parliament then should our brethren also find féele by experience the schoolemistresse as they saie of fooles though now in opinion they hope and are persuaded and would persuade vs by the Theoriks of their learned discourse otherwise that they should so little fulfill the rest of their course with ioy that they should rather consume their course with too late repentance being continuallie coursed about these matters with restlesse troubles and vexations But if our sinnes be the let that this or the like grounded vpon Gods word maie not now be receaued yet the present age maie see and iudge what is the vttermost of our desire concerning reformation which hitherto for lacke of such a publike testimoniall hath beene subiect to infinite sclanders deuised by the aduersaries of Gods truth and hinderance of godlie proceedings vnto reformation And that the posteritie maie knowe that the truth in this time was not generallie vnknowne nor vntestified concerning the right regiment of the church of GOD nor this disordred forme of ecclesiasticall gouernment which we haue receaued for the most part of poperie deliuered to our children without contradiction that our example should not be preiudiciall vnto them as the example of our godlie fathers which in this point neglected their dutie hath bene preiudiciall vnto vs. Verie well saith saint Iames chapter 4 ver 1 c. From whence are wars and contentions among you are they not hence euen of your lusts or desires that fight in your members Ye lust or desire and haue not ye enuie haue indignation and can not obtaine you fight and war and get nothing because ye aske not ye aske and receaue not because ye aske amisse that you might consume it on the things that you lust for or doe desire And euen so for our bretherens lusts and desires to haue this forme take place and be put in practise their selues haue well confessed saieng but if our sinnes bee the let that this or the like grounded vpon Gods word maie not now be receaued for their sinnes indeede be the let because the things desired and their desires and attempts thereof are full of sinnes and therfore God of his great mercie lets and stops the receauing of this forme sith it is not as they pretend to vs or persuade to themselues grounded vpon Gods word and euen therefore it might not then neither maie it now nor by the grace of God euer shall of vs be receiued at all But what is this which here they said if our sinnes be the let that this or the like grounded vpon Gods word maie not now be receaued What haue we here This indéed is a new point Are we come now after all this adoe in the finall conclusion and lapping vp of all this forme learned discourse of ecclesiasticall gouernment of all this declaration of all the desires of all the faithfull ministers what reformation of the church of England they seeke for after all this vrging prescribing protesting c. are we now come to the receauing of this or the like I had thought all this while and so they still did beare vs stoutlie in hand that they had pleaded for this forme would haue prooued that this forme of eccl gouernment which they haue here set foorth in this learned discourse had bene the true waie that they meant of reformation And now for sooth when all comes to all it is not this but it is either this or the like Aha is it but so that is another maner of matter if it be but either this or the like well then thanks be to God we haue séene alreadie what this is and what truth and force this hath caried But what is that they saie or the like for it is an old and a true prouerbe Nullum simile est idem Nothing that is the like is the same so that now if we receaue the like our brethren haue here giuen vs a flat discharge our quietus est for this and as for this we may againe giue it a free passe-port out of England so that we receaue the like for this bindeth vs not but this or the like No nor yet the like bindeth vs anie more than this But as nothing in this did before bind vs and yet had it bound vs the bands as now in the end we see were of no force yea their selues haue here vndone the bands and set vs at libertie on this condition that we haue the like so as yet we be free from this like also for what this like is that they tell not and how shall we learne it For if we looke on all the forms that anie other of our brethren doo also prescribe or on any other forme in anie other reformed church they are neither like this forme nor one like another neither is there anie hurt at all therin though they be not alike in their forms of eccl gouernment For so that they be not alike but al one and the same in all one and the same substance of doctrine faith and religion the eccl gouernment in diuers states and dominions maie differ in diuers matters and be neither the same nor yet alike without any danger to those churches themselues or anie preiudice to the churches of other princes countries and dominions But like or like not if it may not saie they be receaued yet the present age may see and iudge what is the vttermost of our desire That say I is verie hard for vs to see when their own selues are not able to determine it For although we may see these their desires that are set down in this learned discourse if they maie be rightlie termed desires and not rather prescriptions yet neither doo we see the vttermost of them nor what a number euen as in the horsse of Troie lie hidden and included in them that yet in these beginnings are not opened and God knoweth whether the present age now liuing shall see the one halfe or quarter of them especiallie of the vttermost of them Yea what an vncerteintie of their desires doo they here open to
the present age when they conclude thus that they either desire this or the like forme to be receiued Can this present age or doo theirselues in this preset discourse see the vttermost of these indefinit desires of the like till they shall further open it or till experieÌ„ce the mistresse of fooles shall reueale it They saie that the reformation which they desire hitherto for lacke of such a publike testimoniall meaning as this learned discourse hath beene subiect to infinit sclanders deuised by the aduersaries of Gods truth and hinderance of godlie proceedings vnto reformation If our brethren haue cause to take offense for sclanders as they say deuised against their reformation doo they not see here what a foule and intollerable sclander they cast vpon all the professors of the Gospell that are not of their opinion in this their deuised reformation to terme vs the aduersaries of Gods truth that fauor the truth of God as much by the grace of God euen for their liues as they Are we not their brethren in the profession of the Gospell Haue they not confessed that in substance of religion we agree and it is resolued publikelie mainteined for our true and holie faith Were we thus professors of Gods truth in the preface of this learned discourse andare we now in the peroration of the same the aduersaries of gods truth Indéed in the verie first title to the booke of this forme discoursed vpon they began roughlie and set it out to serue for a iust apologie as they said against the false accusations sclanders of their aduersaries there also they mentioned sclanders and false accusations and called vs aduersaries All which were heauie words and a rough beginning of such as are or should be brethren It was but malum omen to stumble on such foule terms at the verie threshold it did prognosticat we should haue some storms and so we haue had indéed in passing through this learned discourse and yet this is but a mild booke in comparison of manie other of theirs albeit our brethren haue not béene verie meale mouthed but haue vsed verie brode language God wot and all the world maie see too vnséemelie for ministers faithfull ministers learned discourses against their brethren in Christ for no greater matters than these are But we haue borne them off with head and shoulders as well and with as much pacience forbearance as we mought saue that we haue turned againe now and then for our necessarie defense and laid I trust in modestie before our bretheren onelie how ill they haue doone therein and how the most of the same sclanders were such stones cast as could rebound But now when we haue got out of the whole plotforme and building of this learned discourse bearing off all the blowes taunts in the seuerall lodgings of all these new Eccl. officers and thought now on the backside of this building all had béene past and doone naie soft we shall haue like farewell to our hansell yea where we were called before but their aduersaries we shall now be driuen out with another maner of peale as not onlie hinderances of their proceedings to reformation but to all the present age that the posteritie maie know it too as a perpetuall blot of infamie we are now hissed out cried out vpoâ— not for their aduersaries onlie but for the aduersaries of gods truth they complaine of our false accusations and infinit sclanders to let go all their other complaints on vs this one is vnum prâ—mille To whom shall we complaine of this so apparant vntrue and withall so hainous an accusation made on vs It deserueth indéede for the indignitie thereof to haue shaken our garment with silence as cléere therefrom to haue gone our way But because it toucheth God his truth in which case we maie yet at least returne saie with Christ our sauiour ego daemonium non habeo we are not the aduersaries of Gods truth It is vntrulie and vnbrotherlie spoken neither toucheth it vs alone but all the holie and ancient fathers in the primitiue church whom we haue plainlie shewed to be of the same opinion in all or the greatest of these coÌ„trouersies that we defend in our own daies present age it spotteth the fresh memorie of our late godlie fathers Cranmer Latimer Ridley Hooper Ferrar Philpot c. all blessed martyrs and all that consented vnto them and diuers reuerend godlie Confessors of later memorie as Bishop Iuell Horne Pilkinton Grindall Cox Bentham Parkhurst and others which were all notablie known both on this side and beyond the seas to be great professors of gods truth and no lesse earnest impugners of the aduersaries of the truth of God And albeit they liked not these desires and deuises of our brethreÌ„s forms of reformation yet for their great learning and sinceritie in the gospell the most notable men of late in the reformed churches beyond the seas doe highlie honor them and thinke and speake well of them giuing full testimonie of their liking Yea both Bucer and Peter Martir two chéefe lights and pillers of Gods church in these our last daies forsooke their owne countries and all other reformed churches liued vnder the forme of reformation of this our English church with all due reuerence both to the state than being to the bishops then liuing without any impugning or defacing of theÌ„ Yea Caluine himselfe as we haue shewed alloweth well both of the ancient bishops and Archbishops before the tyrannie and eâ—rors of the pope began and of the bishops of these daies to continue still in their bishopriks so they be professors of Gods truth and not aduersaries to it How vnaduisedlie then is this spoken of our brethren and how reprochfullie to call our Bishops and all vs that ioine with them the aduersaries of Gods truth Could they bestow any fouler terme vpon the rankest of al the Papists or vpon the Pope himselfe For they indéed are the aduersaries of Gods truth And so S. Paule saith 2. Thes. 2. of that man of sin son of perdition which is an aduersarie and exalteth himselfe against all that is called God And this terme as a parting blow for a token of remembrance our bretheren vouchsafe to giue our bishops vs to be the aduersaries of Gods truth this is too too bitter zeale Mors in olla there is Coloquintida in this pot that boils ouer such froth Gods truth is not in this accusation no brootherhood of Christ no linke of loue no bond of peace no bowels of mercie no affection of compassion but all of passion in this too blacke Rhethorike But it sufficeth vs to cleare our selues GOD forgiue it our bretheren and wée doe And whereas withall they burthen our Bishops and vs that we are an hinderance of godlie proceedings vnto reformation this is another great vntruth and sclander These procéedings indéed of our bretheren our Bishops and
50. lib. 5. de ciuit dei cap. 24. How highly good princes esteeme the seruice of God Euâ—eb in li. de vita Constant The King seruing the Churches commoditie The greateâ—â— honor of Princes Our Br pretence of honoring God our Father and seruing to the commoditie of the Church our mother How the Papists vsed these pretenses that our Brethren do A Prince may bee Gods child and yet supreme gouernor The Prophecie of Esay 49. The learned disc pa. 143.144 145. Esai 49.23 Psa. 2.10.11 1. Tim. 2.12 Bridges All these 3. cited testimonies make also against theÌ„ The Papists abuse of this testimonie of Esay Esay 49. The wordes of Esay not spoken so much to fore-tell of Princes abasing them vnder the church as of gouerning it A third part of this testimonie left out whereto the other parts be referred Cal. exposition of the testimonie of Esay The duetie of Princes aboue al other Christians Psalm 2.10 The papists mis. vnderstanding of this place The Christian Princes nourishing of the Church The Princes seruice Psal. 2. Our Br. â— testimonie Psa. 2.10.11 Our Br. that promised to treate of Princes gouerning are nowe all in Princes obeying Our Br. wrong appliyng this testimonie Psalm 2. Psalm 2. How all the Cleargy are inferior to the Prince Aug. in epis 50. ad Bonifacium How the K. serueth God as a man howe as a king The example of the Kinges seruice The seruice that none can do but Princes The Christian Princes supremacie in Eccl. matters The wise christian Prince may aswell giue aduice to his Clergie as take aduice of them Musculus in 2. Psal. Why Princes are most especially called vpon Marloratus in psal 2. The benefits by Princes 1. Tim. 2 In what matters Princes serue the Lord Our Br. third testimonie out of 1. Tim. 2. for the restraynt of the Princes supremacie The Princes authoritie stretcheth further than to protection 1. Tim. 2. Caluin in 1. Tim. 2. The benefites that we haue by the Princes ministerie Why wee should pray for Princes of whome we haue not these benefites The Princes office How hardly we may leade a godly life vnder persecutors Our br renew their old defacing of the Princes authority The excellent benefit that we receaue by a godly prince In the worde godlines S. Paule vnderstandeth the worship of God The Princes duty before all things to set foorth true religion The peaceable quiet life that our Bre. graunt we haue by Princes Our Bre. here confute their former saying Pag 9. Our Bre. sâ—t not foorth the best parts of the benefites by a godly Prince The benefites that we receiue from God by her maiesty Beza in Christ confesse ca 5. act 44. The chiefest office of Christian Magistrates The learned disc pag. 145. Bridges Our Br conclusion better then all their premisses The doubtfull reâ—â—â—eaâ—e of our Bâ—eâ—hrens speeches Our Bre. our graunt to the priâ—ce Princes the meanes to sâ—luatioâ— 1. Sam. 2 30â— The pitch of the controuersie betweene vs concerning this question Thâ— difference betweene vs. How the Prince is a nurse Our Brethrens similitude of a nurse against them The learned disc pag. 145. The Epilogue of this learned disc Bridges Our Brethrens Epilogue of this learned discourse Our Brethrens perswasion that this their forme is agreeable to Gods word We depend not on our Brethrens perswasion but on their proues Our Brethrens perswasion of our Bishops and most of the Clergie Our Br. perswasion of this forme Our bre their selues not perswaded of this forme but dissenting froÌ„ it Our bre condemning all ministers disagreeing from them to be vnfaithfull Our bre begin to shrinke in their perswasion agreeable form â—o gods word Agreeabl or disagreeable to gods word What our Br. say they are able to prooue consenting with the example of the primitiue church What they meane by the primitiue Church Euery exaÌ„ple neither inferreth a rule nor generall practise Our Br. warie speeches Why our Br. doe thus now in the end restrayne their speeches Agreeable and consenting are not the same Our Br. dissent and disagreeablenes Our Br. forme not coÌ„senting with the Primitiue church Our Brethren can shewe no example in the Primi Church for the most of their chiefest positions Our Bretheren say they are able to proue it It had bin better if thei could haue sayd they haue proued it Our Br. abilitie of proofe A token of grace not to boast they haue done that they haue not done How our Brethren haue builded on the foundation of the Scripture Our Bre. promise to set forth the auncient Fathers of these things What our Bretheren haue performed What our Br. shall do if they shall truly performe this promise Doctors Bishops and Pastors Consistorie of Elders Math. 18. Deacons The godly fathers agaynst our Bretheren in all these things The learned disc pag. 146. Our Br. protestation Our Br. protestation of the causes of this learned discourse Bridges The maner of our Br. protestation Our Br. protesting for all the faitâ—full ministers Diuers of our bretheren misliking these desiâ—es in whose names this protestation is made The varietie vncerteyntie of our br desires A more warie protestation had bin better Why our br conclude with so solemne a protestation What our Br. seeke They protest that they seeke not their own profite c. Our br seeke rather their owne and others hurt Our br are instruments to other Our Br. wrong seeking of Gods glorie his Churches profite How Gods glorie truth is defaced hereby How the Church is hindered by this our br seeking Psal. 124. True way of reformation How our Br. should indeed seeke Gods glorie and the Churches profite Psal. 126. The true way of reformation Our Br. maner of putting their forme in writing is not the tâ—ue way of reformatioÌ„ Discharge of conscience The discharge of conscience or rather charge thereof Seeking meanes that this form may take place The moouing them that be in authoritie to put it in practise Daungerous meanes Offring vp bookes to the Parliament Good successe Oâ—r Brethrens offring vp their Pamphlets euery ParliameÌ„t do therein coÌ„trary to their own principles The Parliament about these matters Our Brethrens words pa. 117. agaynst the Parliament all that are no Pastors How the Parliament may râ—iect all their Pamphlets The Parliament not without the Prince These matters to be rather debated in the Conuocation than in the Paâ—liament Clergie men to determine Clergie matters The Parliaments determining without the Prince These matters alreadie determined and by the ParliameÌ„t ratified Ours and our brthrens disputation Our readines to approue these matters being ordâ—â—lie called thereto neuer so often The euent of all disputation which our brethren refâ—se except their selues be dâ—â—â—â—miners of these matters The 〈…〉 shoâ—ld take place Our br desire of this or the like The learned disc pag. 147. Bridges The cause why this desired forme is not to be receaued The vttermost of their desires Our brethrens conclusion of their desires that either this or the like forme should be receaued If it suffise to receaue the like then there is no necessitie of this forme What is ment by the like forme It is not hurtfull that all churches forms of gouernment be not like In substance of doctrine they must bee all one The seeing iudging the vttermost of our br desires Aduersaries of Gods truth Our brethrens grecuous slandering of their brethren to be the aduersaries of Gods truth This learned discourse begun continued and concluded in foule language Our answer to this foule sclander 10.8 How manie besides vs this sclander toucheth Hinderance of our br proceedings Who are the aduersaries of Gods truth Our hinderaÌ„ce of our br proceedings in this forme What dâ—formed confusion among vs this forme of reformation would breede Deformed refomation The French and Belgike churches Deut. 22.10 Our bretherens publike testimoniall Our brethrens pretense onlie tâ— cleere themselue from sclander Our brethrens publike testimoniall The disagreement of our br testimonials Our brethrens intendment for the posteritie Knowledg and sestification of the truth The posteritie can knowe no certain true forme by this Learned Discourse An vncertaine conclusion The vncertaine conclusion of al our Brethr. desires Our Brethr. disordred speeches against our forme of Ecclesiastical gouern Disorder a speeches Abuses disordering good forms and orders Our Brethr. forme not grounded on Gods worde Reasons taken out of Poperie Our Brethr. receiuing from the Papistes their popish arguments for their Pastors gouernmeÌ„t Example of contradiction How our Brethren would noâ—sle vp their children in contradiction Our Brethrens accusation of our godly fathers Our Brethr. accusation of their godly fathers Our godly fathers neglect of this forme and of noâ—sling vp their childreÌ„ in these contradictions Our fathers â—eglect of this â—oâ—me Our Brethr. preiudice by their godly fathers neglect Our Brethr. conclusion with prayer Pag. 212. Pag. 700. Pag. 747. Pag. 844.
in all degrees of men and women noble worshipfulâ— â—â—d of the vulgar sort many begin to doubt of our established gouernment and to suppose some great and inuincible validitie to be in their assertions if too manie be not alreadie carried away too farre in thiâ— opinion that the regiment and discipline which our Brethren desire is suppressed onely by meere authoritie against the manifest prescription of Gods word against the cleere examples of the Primitiue Church against the manifold testimonies of the vnsuspected hystories and auncient Fathers against the sound interpretations and approued practise of all or the best reformed Churches and against reason it selfe as they pretend how much behoueth it vs againe in all brotherlie modestie constantlie to stand vpon our gard in so iust a defence For although many godly learned and wise haue in searching found out the shallownesse heerein of all their grounds yet is it requisite to lay them open to all other that desire to be more thoroughly satisfyed yea euen to exenterate and rip vp the verie bowels of the whole cause to examine their chiefe and principall arguments to go to the authors themselues from whence they fetch them to set them downe at large least any might complaine they were mangled or inuerted and to do all this by the more diligent search and conference of the holie Scripture by the better examining the state of the Primitiue Church by the particular perusing the autentike hystories and testimonies of the auncient Fathers by reuising the states and writing of the reformed Churches and by weighing the peyse and inference of their reasons if happily by all or by any of all these meanes we shall see all or any of the thingâ— that they crie so much vpon to be truly and substantially prooued Which thing while heere I haue laboured to performe though the volume haue growne bigge and the search may seeme tedious vnto some yet the desirous readers satisfaction may be part of his recompence which I haue chiefely intended in this aunswere I know that some too much dazeled by preoccupate affection and wholy mancipated to their forestalled opinion will be still picking byous quarrels to replie vpon one thing or another But to him that is desirous indeede to boult out the truth to sound the matters to their deapth to leuell his ayme not to euery incident but to the head and state in question such replyes as bubles will die as they rise being of no regard but seruing onely to feede and foade contentions and foreseasoned humors and such I graunt it is in vayne to aunswere except they be too vrgent or preuayle too much or by silence and permission get too great credite But when as heere the persons with whome I deale professe in the front and first title of their booke that this is A briefe and plaine declaration concerning the desires not of such or such an one or of some fewe or many of them but of all those faithfull Ministers that haue and doe seeke for the discipline and reformation of the Church of Englande and say againe in their conclusion and last leafe of this Discourse that if this forme of reformation which they haue here set foorth may not nowe be receaued yet the present age may see and iudge what is the vttermost of our desire concerning reformation which hitherto for lacke of such a publike testimoniall hath beene subiect to infinite sclaunders deuised by the aduersaries of Gods truth and hindrance of godly proceedinges vnto reformation And for remedie hereof they haue nowe at length ioyned all their heads together consulting and consenting vpon this plotforme of the Churches gouernement which for greater aestimation they recommende vnto vs with this plausible title on the toppe of euerie leafe A Learned Discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment And that this is nowe set foorth to this ende that the posteritie may knowe that the truth in this time was not generally vnknowen nor vntestified concerning the regiment of the Church of God thus couragiously prouoking vs to aunswere vnto this Learned Discourse if we be able so to doe or else to holde our peace for euer hereafter who may not hereby see that it is high time either now or neuer to speak for our selues and for our Churches defence or else as conuicts by silence to yeelde vnto them But now againe while we thus contend by inueighing against and aunswering one another some good men I knowe there are that wish vs both well which are most of all afraide of this that wee shall lay our shame and nakednesse open to all the worlde and namely to the publike and deadly aduersaries of vs both who by occasion of these inferiour matters of circumstance wherin we agree not diffame the higher matters of substance wherein we agree And I confesse with griefe so we doe But when this ariseth not by vs nor by vs is growen so farre and yet betweene our Brethren and vs it is so farre growen that the aduersarie alreadie and all the world doth or may see our dissent herein although neither our Brethren nor we had set it foorth in writing yet when our Brethren by writing also diuulge it to the wide worlde and still followe it with one treatise on the necke of an other what booteth it any longer for that respect to refraine from the publike defending of our cause Yea how doth it not nowe stande vs more vpon to publish our so necessarie defence that all men may better knowe and iudge it hearing both partes So that wee defende ours and aunswere theirs in such reuerende forte as the Apostle putteth vs in minde Let your modestie or your patient mind be made knowen to all men And when the worlde shall see vs deale together thus they shall see that although we must needs as the sonne of Syrach bids vs Striue for the truth vnto the death and defende iustice for thy life yet still we are desirous as the Apostle also willeth If it be possible so much as lieth in vs to haue peace with all men And when the aduersarie shall see how loath we are and euen haled to enter into this conflict against our Brethren and with what reuerence for our partes wee striue with them or rather stande onely at the bay of our defence in the shielding of our Churches state and gouernance And againe when they shall see howe that notwithstanding all these contentions for our regiment we doe yet as I hope hetherto we doe and shall the Lorde be praysed for it continue in the vnion of all the ground-worke and building of our faith doctrine and religion which the aduersaries among them selues for all their crakes doe not they shall or may the easilier perceaue euen in the matter and manner of our contentions both the synceritie of our cause and the temperature of our dealing Which may by the grace of God turne to their bettering or at least to their shame they shall or may
alreadie written and by treatises lately and nowe published it may appeare we seeke that which at the least in the iudgement of all true Christians hath no small probabilitie as wee iudge necessitie of trueth out of the Scriptures it may please her most excellent Maiestie and their honors to appoint on both sides the best learned most godly and moderate men to debate al differences of waight betweene them and vs. So that first vppon sufficient consideration the Questions to be debated be without all ambiguitiâ— set downe the reasons of both sides without all outgoings shortly and plainely deliuered in writing ech to other that after vpon sufficient examination the reasons of both be continually confirmed and resolued till either by the euidence of trueth one partie yeelde vnto the other or the follie and madnesse of those which gaine-say it doe in equal iudgement become manifest in regarde of the contradictions and absurdities where-to they shall be driuen by the force of Gods worde It may appeare we graunt that our brethren haue both alreadie writâ—en bookes now lately published treatises but with what authoritie they could so doe that is another question if it be lawfull authoritie to do it both against lawe and authoritie we may shortly haue other vpon like ensample set out worse matters yea neuer so ill doctrine or matters neuer so much against the state For although they pretende their bookes and treatises to be neuer so good yet ought they not to be published but by good meanes also least if the good meanes be neglected ill thinges in like manner may be published But by what ill meanes soeuer they set out their bookes and treatises yet for the matter of them it may say they appeare we seeke that which at the least in the iudgement of all true Christians hath no small probabilitie as we iudge necessitie of trueth out of the Scriptures Fancie might make a man bowlt branne and thinke it is flower And euen so doe our brethren imagine in this necessitie But when we shall come to the examining of these bookes and treatises yea euen of this their learned discourse compiled in the name of all the faithfull ministers and of all their desires and of all that they say they seeke for we shall finde necessitie of trueth out of the Scriptures in no one thing of all their posâ—tions in controuersie except they vnderstande it so out of the Scriptures that is to say cleane without al scriptures or any necessarie consequence of scriptures And although probability ought not to carrie away the matter yet vpon better suruey thereof we shall finde not so much as any good probability that is grounded on the Scriptures but onely on the méere interpretations and sayings of some the chiefest persons in estimation on their side if at the least they agrée with them and are not caried away by their owne fancies as in the perusing of this learned discourse shall God willing appeare In the meane season sée héere how peremptorie our brethren are in their owne iudgement That which they seeke for is of no probability but as we iudge necessity say they yet they confesse that in the iudgement of all true Christians it is but of probability though saye they it hath no small probability So that they graunt at the least héereby that many if not al true Christians iudge that that which they seeke for hath no necessity of truth out of the Scriptures but hold themselues contented onely with probability For be it small or not small it is but probability of truth out of the Scriptures that they grounde themselues vpon yet think this hindereth not but that they still be al true Christians So that â—hey count them no true Christians in whose iudgement the thinges that our brethren seeke for haue not at the least great probability of trueth out of the Scriptures But if they can allow them to be al true Christians in whose iudgement these things stand but on the vncertainty of probability I trust we shal not léese our Christendome euer a whit the more â—or this but be true Christians yea their selues haue graunted vs euen in â—his Preface that we are their brethren and that we agrée in the substaÌ„ce of religion with them and therfore of necessity if they be true Christians we be true Christians also and yet we openly and constantly anow that the most and greatest of the things that they seeke for haue not at the least any probability of truth out of the Scriptures in our iudgements yea in my iudgement not one of them al any good probability but we al confesse they haue no necessity This therefore was too vnaduisedly and too peremptorily spoken and vpon too great a confidence in their cause as to hazard the truth of our Christianity for not iudging these things to bee at least probable But let the necessity or probability be tried in the debating and weighing of them let vs now sée how they woulde haue them debated and weighed It may please say they her most excellent Maiestie and their honors to appoint on both sides the best learned most godlie and moderate men to debate all differences of weight betweene them and vs. This is a good beginning that they will yéelde to her most excellent Maiestie and their honours yet at the least thus much if they woulde stande to this but when it shall come to the debating wayghing or determining they giue her Maiestie and their honours no authoritie at al. Yea they haue their selues alreadie debated weighed iudged determined and prescribed these thinges and that for necessitie in their iudgements before they come to this conference as shal also appeare by these their learned discourses and is it likely they will yéelde and reuoke this their principles set foorth in print and diuulged to all the worlde by our reasoning afterwarde with them howesoeuer by reasoning we should euict them Had it not béene better not to haue vaunted thus before hande on such necessitie and prescription But they say The best learned most godlie and moderate men on both sides should be appointed to debate al differences of weight betweene them and vs. For their partes they so glorie both of their learning and godlines that they giue this booke two titles in the one for godlinesse and moderatenesse A declaration of the desires of the faithfull ministers not prescribing but moderatly desiring in the other for their learning A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment Thus haue they set foorth themselues for these vertues But thankes be to God that they graunt yet some of our side to be also both learned godly and moderate men What the learning is of many God be praysed on our side let the learned iudge Moderation is more easily discerned as the Apostle saieth Phil. 4.5 Let your moderate or patient minde be knowen to all men But since our brethren
our onelie cheefe housholder hath set foorth in them by the which he woulde haue his house or church to be directed as in things perteining to the eternall saluation of vs men his vnprofitable seruants This were indéed an improfitable seruice and an vndiligent and vnreuerent searching of the holie scripture For so Per ignorationem Elenchi not knowing the ground of the matter which we searched for we might in a zeale not according to knowledge run and leade other with vs into manie and dangerous inconueniences and so become not onelie vnprofitable but hurtefull seruants too And if these our brethren the learned discoursers did alwaies search the holie scriptures with this diligence and reuerence as both they and we and all ought to doo they should finde that in their vrging of this their ecclesiasticall gouernement as apperteining to saluation they offer to great an iniurie both to all vs their brethren to the most ages and peoples if not to all Gods church besides themselues For albeit they could find some parts thereof set foorth by our sauiour Christ in the holie scriptures which how they searche and prooue this discourse will shew yet for all their forme héere prescribed to be set foorth by our sauiour Christe or by his apostles in the holie scriptures by which he would haue his church directed in all things and that as apperteining to the saluation of vs men his vnprofitable seruants They shall neuer finde this search while they will Yea in saying this they pronounce to hard a censure vpon all the house and church of Christ where this ecclesiasticall gouernement hath not béene obserued Which if it had perteined to the saluation of man should not onelie haue béene vnprofitable but cast awaie and condemned seruants to and so no liuelie stones of his house or parts of his true church at all For it booteth not that other of our brethren thinke to helpe the matter in likening our church to a man liuing but yet maimed or to a house standing but yet ruinated For if it necessarilie be apperteining to the saluation of vs men then cannot we men without it be partakers of saluatiō But none are of the true church of God but are pertakers of saluation For the true church is onelie of the elected and therefore either all that haue not had since Christs time this prescribed forme of gouernment were not the church of Christ at all or els this prescribed forme of gouernmēt is not necessarilie apperteining to the saluatiō of vs men And if not necessarie then vnnecessarie to our saluatiō And then we shall mainteine our gouernment I trust in peace honestie and godlinesse by the grace of God well-inough yea without anie deforming and much more without anie maiming of the church of Christ as Cartwrighte saith and much more without being no true church at all as Harrison saith although we want it But now let vs sée with what diligence and reuerence our brethren haue searched the holie scriptures and what they haue found in them for this their building Now we finde in the scriptures that our sauiour Christ ascending into heauen was not vnmindfull of his church on earth but ordeined an holie ministerie of men to the building vp of the bodie of Christ in vnitie of faith and knowledge This for a beginning is well searched out and a good beginning maketh a good ending This is searched found and quoted by our brethren Ephes. 4.11 and 1. Cor. 12.28 But they finde héere that was not lost nor is doubted of or called in question betwéene vs. For we confesse as fréelie as they that our sauiour Christ ascending into heauen was not vnmindfull of his church on earth but ordeined an holie ministerie of men But what that holie ministerie of men was the apostle himselfe sheweth in the same place Ephes 4. ver 11. He therefore gaue some to be Apostles and some Prophet◠and some Euangelists and some Pastors and teachers This place declareth that our sauiour Christ was neither vnmyndfull nor vnbountifull to his church on earth Notwithstanding the most part of the gifts héere reckoned vp are ceased manie hundred yeares agone and either there remaineth of this but one vnderstanding pastor and teacher for one office as the apostle deuiding the other setteth downe this togither iointlie since the office of Pastor cheefelie consisteth in teaching and so doo the most interpretor◠expound it or there remaineth but two ordinarie functions at the most héere mentioned if we should deuide them as these our brethren doo but of that afterward Now onelie to the present purpose for the which our brethren héere alledge this place the Apostle héere citeth it not for anie orders of ecclesiasticall gouernement concerning externall discipline or iurisdiction in what prescribed manner it should be obserued directed set foorth and perpetuallie continued in Christs church yea the chéefest part of those gouernours which the Apostle setteth downe is altered by taking awaie the three principall named persons Apostles Prophets and Euangelists But S. Paule speaking there of their diuerse gifts and functions to what purpose doo our brethren say Christ gaue them To the building vp saye they of the body of Christ in the vnitie of faith and knowledge What is this to the matter that we now search to finde in the scriptures that is to saie for some orders prescribed and set foorth concerning the externall forme of ecclesiasticall gouernement for the church to be directed by in all things Can we finde this in this testimonie of the scripture If we can let vs search the place better and not curtall it thus as they doo He therefore saith the Apostle gaue some to be apostles and some prophets and some euangelists and some pastors and teachers for the gathering together of the saints for the worke of the ministerie and for the edification of the bodie of Christ till we all meet togither in the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfect man and vnto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ that we hence foorth be no more children wauering and caried about with euerie winde of doctrine by the deceite of men and with craftinesse whereby they lie in waite to deceaue But let vs follow the truth in loue and in all things grow vp into him which is the head that is Christ by whome all the bodie being coupled and knit together by euerie ioint for the furniture thereof according to the effectuall power which is in the measure of euerie part receaueth encrease of the bodie vnto the edifiyng of it selfe in loue This is all that S. Paule in this place speaketh of these gifts and of this building and of the order and ends thereof So that héere he referreth all to vnitie in doctrine of faith and to holie conuersation of life and not to the externall orders of the churches ecclesiasticall gouernement Albeit we must
to vs to leaue this disordered state of ours wherein wee haue so long laboured with so little profit and to embrace that moste bewtifull order of Ecclesiastical regiment which God so manifestlie nifestlie doth blesse and prosper in our neighbours hands It is an olde saying faire words make fooles faine and heere are very faire words of our neighbours state though as fowle of our owne If nowe for these faire and foule wordes of our brethren we will become such fooles to mislike and leaue our owne and embrace an others Tâ—â— goodly shewe of a fayrer bone perswaded Aesops Dog to leaue the goâ—â— bone that he had alreadie in his mouth and to leape into the water after the shadowe of another I praie GOD our brethren allure vs not with the like bayte of some faire shadow to leaue the good state wee haue of gouernment established They entice vs héere with maruelous goodlie thinges as right reformation daily encrease and glory of the kingdome of Christ they wilt vs to embrace that moste bewtifull order of Ecclesiasticall regiment which God so manifestlie doth blesse and prosper in our neighboures handes This beawtie were inough to enamoure a man this prosperitie and blessing to set his téeth an edge and to enflambe the harte of anye zealous and godly meaning man in the spiritual loue of God for the encrease and glory of his kingdome and the desire to haue him blesse and prosper our estate But is all this true in our neighbours and is our owne state so disordred and so laboursome with so little profit For otherwise as our brethren in their Preface likned our Prelates and ministers to foxes and little foxes so I remember that once I reade a tale of a Foxe that had lost his taile and because other had tayles and hee had none he went about to perswade all his brethren to leaue their tailes for they were but an vnnecessary clogge and hinderance vnto them trayling in the myre which if it were away O how light and nimble should they bee And for example to perswade them the better he shewed them the experience not in his neighbour but in him-selfe But one that knowe before on what necessity he had lost it cried out vnto him Brother Foxe brother Foxe leaue your faire perswasion You haue lost your owne and therefore you would haue vs to leaue ours to beare you company But what do ye tel vs héere will our brethren say a foolish flim flam tale of a foxe taile to dallie out so waighty and so holie a matter while we are earnest in perswading to leaue this disordered state of ours wherein we haue so long laboured with so little profit and to embrace that moste bewtiful order of Ecclesiasticall regiment which God so manifesttie doeth blesse and prosper in our neighbours handes Indéed brethren if this were as true as you héere go about to perswade it I would yéeld gladly and be soons perswaded But if this be the méere following the deuises of your own braine and nothing so neither in vs nor in our neighbours as you would perswade vs why may not a fained fable applyed to truth aunswere a feyned perswasion grounded on falsehoode If yee bee so perswaded your selues and thinke as ye say it may bee ye thinke so Fortis imaginatio in a mans owne brayne may worke wonders but to perswade an-other by anothers example by such an example as is neither necessary nor fitte nor sufficient nor true I may well shake off this fonde perswasion neither comparing our brethren to Dogs or Foxes as they in bitternes compare vs though I may chaunce get a flappe with a Foxe tayle if not worse for my labour But I pray you brethren doe yee meane indéede good earneste as yee say when ye tell vs that the order of Ecclesiasticall Gouernment in the Primitiue Church is restored for if it bee then haue wee newe Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes c. come againe Yea but say you those offices were temporall and are expyred and therefore are not to bee restored Yea but say I they were the chiefest offices then when the order of the Ecclesiasticall gouernment in the Primitiue Church was most bewtifull and therefore if they bee not restored in whome the bewtie most consisted then that state of Ecclesiasticall regiment yea the most bewtifull state thereof is not nor is to be restored Yea but saye you we restraine moste bewtifull to the Offices that were perpetuall to remaine for euer Yea but say I how proue yee then your Seniour Gouernours to be such and to haue more Priuiledge of perpetuity theÌ„ those better higher and more bewtifull offices had and if they were to remaine for euer why did they not so for euer remaine but rather for euer till now of late so ceased to be in the Church expired and had no place that they are now at length euen at the laste caste of the worlde to be restored If ye say the truth of the Gospell was hidden also and the true professors of it I graunt it was so and yet it was alwayes and remayned still for euer and wee can fetche and bring foorth againste the Gospels and our common aduersaries witnesses more or fewer yet some in all ages And the like also we can doe for Pastors teachers and Deacons good and bad in all ages since the first institution of them And can you brethren do the like for this your pretended gouerning and not teaching Seniory if ye can plead perpetuitie if ye cannot admitting that it once had bene why crake ye of in others or secke among vs the restoring of that which so many hundreth yeares hath vtterly ceased to be in the Church is expired and hath had no place Ceased say you de facto but not de Iure Proue you Ius and wee will quicklie let fall our pleay de facto But till you can fynde either the righte or the practise of them or if they were once where they haue beene hidden or banished al this whyle Or if they dyed and were buried till with the gifte of of working wonders ye shall reuine and so restore them what say you to those offices that were then also euen when Apostles Prophetes and Euangelists c. were aliue and were ordeyned of the Apostles and were offices distinguished in dignity from Pastors and Teachers from Deacons or anie other gouerning Seniors hauing authority ouer them in the cities or regions limited vnto them and these offices haue continued euer since If now therefore the regiment of the Primitiue church be rightly reformed to the originall beawtie then muste Bishops and Arch-bishops stande for they stoode then what difference soeuer our brethren finde of standing now And yet finde what difference they can they shal finde that if those Seniors imagining there were such as they pretende be restored both all they and the Doctors and Pastors and Deacons and all other Ecclesiastical officers are al to
forsoothe hee being furnished with the testimonies of the Scripture and other helpes of the Holie-ghoste did as it were ouerwhelme all his aduersaries For the word of disturbing them that Luke vseth dooth signifie that when Paule pressed them beyonde measure they were so dashed that they were not their owne men The manner of his disturbing them is expressed in that Paule confirmed Iesus to be Christe For the sense is when the Iewes cheefelie would striue against it they were notwithstanding ouercome and confounded So that Paule by experience prooued that it was moste true which he pronounceth that the Scripture is profitable to reprooue 2. Tim. 3.16 And he performed that which in another place he required of a Bishop and a Doctor For he was armed with the word of God to auouche the truthe Tit. 1.9 And indeede Luke comprehends two things that Paule in disputing was a Conqueror in suche sorte that he made the Iewes to fall And yet their stubbernesse was not so broken and tamed that they would yeeld vnto the truthe Bicause for all this their consciences turmoiled within them and being dashed downe from the degree of their false opinion they neuer a whitte submitted themselues to Christe Therefore so often as heretikes doo arise to oppugne the right faith so often as the wicked doo enterprise to shatter all godlinesse so often as naughtie persons doo obstinatelie withstande let vs remember from hence to fetche our armour c. Thus dooth Caluine liuelie expresse the vehement moouing of affections to astonish the hearers that S. Paule vsed in his teaching and making it all one office in the Doctor and in the Bishop and applying his precepts to Timothie and Titus to this dooing of Paule and to the dutie of all true and zealous Teachers And héerévpon also dooth Gualter gather this generall rule This place saithe he admonisheth that the doctrine of the Gospell ought to be preached In which pointe the opinion of manie is that they thinke a simple and full explication of the mysteries of saluation dooth suffice and that they labour in vaine and are intollerable authors of dissensions which reprooue the tyrannie of Antichriste oppugne superstition and publikelie vndertake to enter into controuersie with the professed enimies of the truthe True it is that the simple doctrine of the truthe mought haue sufficed except there were suche as would endeuoure to lappe the same in errors and darkenesse and withdrawe the vnheedfull out of the pathe of truthe but sithe there haue beene suche bothe in times paste and at this daye maye commonlie be founde it behooueth the faithfull to be admonished that they should not giue eare vnto them Which thing you shall neuer bring to passe except yee make an euident proofe that they erre all the world ouer Againe when the impudencie of manie breaketh out so farre that openlie they dare gaine-saie the truthe they are publikelie also to be confuted least by their rashnesse they shoulde make the cause of the truthe suspected Wee read that not onelie the Apostles but Christe himselfe did either of these things Whose example all these worthilie ought to follow whosoeuer will be called and counted the Ministers of his Church Which is the cause that Paule would haue such kinde of Doctors which cannot onelie instruct the rude in sounde doctrine but also conuince those that speake against it Titus 1. And he testifieth also that the Scriptures are giuen to the same end that they may serue for rebuking of the aduersaries 2. Timoth. 3. Which seemed to the Holie-ghoste a matter of such importance that he would not onelie haue the Deceauers of that age to bee reprooued by the Apostles but hee would haue vs also to bee admonished of those that in the laste times should moleste the Churche By which generall rule of Gualter agréeing with Caluine héerevpon it appeareth that Paule applyed his doctrine and ioyned admonition and redargution as well as exhortation and consolation to his Teaching And that this Teaching is so little distinguished from the Pastors office that it is common with the office and dutie of all Bishops and Ministers of the worde And that except these applications be ioyned therevnto the simple declaration of the truthe although it be fullie set out dooth not many times suffice to ouerthrowe the malapart importunitie of the aduersaries And as Paule thus not onelie for the occasion of that time but for the example of our and all times made this introduction into his office of Teaching so hée continued in such feruencie till he met with Barnabas at Ierusalem after thrée yeares trauell in Arabia and all in this Citie of Damascus that the Iewes no doubte exasperated by his laying so hardlie their errors and obstinacie to their charges wente about to kill him From thâ— which daunger being escaped and come to Ierusalem after Barnabas had exhorted the Disciples to admitte him into their companie Hee was conuersante saith Luke verse 28. with them at Ierusalem and spake boldlie in the name of the Lorde Iesus and disputed with the Grecians But they went abouâ— to slaie him Belike he was still more earnest in reproouing them than all the resâ—due For the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth not oâ—elie that hee spake boldlie or confidentlie but frankelie and freelie and that with liberty and reprehension Wherevpon the Geneua Margine noteth making open profession of the Gospell And saithe Caluine In which wordes Luke praiseth his fortitude in professing the Gospell For among so manie hinderances hee durst neuer haue hissed had not his brest beene endewed with a rare constancie In the meane season all are prescribed what they ought to doo to witte euerie one according to the measure of his faithe For althoughe all bee not Paules neuerthelesse the faithe of Christe must breed so muche confidence in our mindes that when it is needfull for vs to speake we waxe not altogither dombe We must saithe Marlorate héere be alwaies readie to render a reason to all that aske it of the hope that is in vs. And is all this freenesse of Saint Paules teaching and example to all men without anye application c. that so mooued the aduersaries that they still went about to murther him Loe saithe Caluine for zeale furie Neither can it be otherwise then that superstition should be fierce cruell Indeed it beseemeth the godlie to be kindeled with an holie anger when they see the pure truthe of God to bee corrupted with false and naughtie opinions but so that they moderate their zeale that they determine nothing excepte the cause be throughlie viewed that they maye reduce them that erre into the waye Laste of all if they see their frowardnesse to bee paste hope yet maye not they snatche the sworde bicause they should knowe that reuengement is not of GOD committed vnto them And therefore Paule peaceablie auoydeth from them whome hee had thus prouoked by his earnest teaching c. Therefore
of the publike administration of the Empire But howsoeuer the mother did somewhat misgouerne the state her daughter Pulcheria is greatly of all the writers recommended For when her father Arcadius died and committed the tutelship of his yong sonne Theodosius to Isigerdis King of Persia but especially to his daughter Pulcheria shee so politikely gouerned the Empire and brought vp her yong Brother in so godly education that he prooued one of the moste excellent Emperors Neither ceased her gouernment euen of the Princes Court and all the affayres euen when Theodosius came to his full yeares and that she had procured him a wife and in the time of his best gouernment And when as by subtile subordination or her euill willers she was remoued from the gouernment and Eudocia the Empresse had all the administration of the common-weale vnder her husbande Theodosius for seuen yeres space Pulcheria was not onely afterwarde restored and so continued all Theodosius reigne but also shee aduaunced Martianus to the empire another moste noble Prince and set the crown on his head and with him gouerned the Empire of Rome not maried vnto him but continuing all her life a moste renouned virgine and in that sense as not holding the empire vnder Martianus but iointly with him is of Zonaras called Empresse Theodora the wife of Iustinian while her husband was not wel in his wittes had the most part of the gouernment of the Empire in her hands and emprisoned Vigilius the Bishop of Rome After Iustinian Iustinus succéeded who when hee died left Tiberius his successor giuing him in charge for his Widowe Sophia vt eam sayth Cuspinian veluti Dominam ac reginam obseruaret that he shold hold her in reuerence as his Lady and Queene Moreouer Martina the wife of Heraclius after her husbands death reigned ioyntly with her sonne about two yeares After whome about the space of seuenscore yeares came this Irene whome here Danaeus onely of all the Romaine Empresses doth mention saying And when Athalia in Iurye and Irene the Mother of Constantine the third would beare the rule at Constantinople either of them ouerturned all things brought the worship of Idols into the Church and this woman Irene layde open the romaine Empire to bee torne in peeces by the Saracens Whereupon Charles the greate was to bee chosen into the Romayne Empire in the VVest and Nicephorus in the Easte Of the vsurpation of Athalia we haue heard sufficiently before The Empresse Irene notwithstanding she maintained the worship of Images and called by her supreme authority the second Nicene Idolatrous councel the histories neuerthelesse accord that she was then lawfull Empresse of Rome yea the doing it selfe declareth that she had the cheefe stroake in the gouernment And so reigned together with her sonne ten yeeres And when he had deposed her she againe deposed him and caused his eyes to be put out Wherein although she shewed her selfe not so naturall a Mother yet were the good or bad this infringeth Danaeus rule that a womā cannot be the Romaine Empresse and Queene But Danaeus chargeth her that she ouerturned all thinges brought in Idolatry and layd open the Empire to bee torne of the Saracens If shée had done all this yet argueth it the stronger that she had the cheefe gouernment or else she could neuer haue done it Neither doe I defend but vtterlie mislike her doing both against the true worship of God in setting vp Images and against the course of nature in putting downe her sonne But in that superstitious age were not many Kinges as farre to blame for Images as was Irene and yet for all that they were lawfull Kings Neither is it méete how superstitious or vnnaturall to her sonne soeuer she were to charge her for the more reproche to womens gouernment more then with matter of trueth and in trueth she so little layde open the Romaine Empire to the Saracens wasting at that time the East parts or any part of the Empire that not only she once stopped all their great army by intercepting their victuals but also another time in playne battel ouercame them By which noble doings she bought her peace with them farre more honorable than many Emperors before had done or did after her Volaterrane saith shee gouerned all things with great prudence Zonaras saith she sent also Legions to represse the incursions of the Arabians the Agarens therefore going forth to seeke their prayes when they chanced on the Romaynes army were put to flight many of them being ouerthrowne Cuspinian with Volaterrane affirmeth this of her Mulier vna rebus administrandis aptissima omnino nata That she was the onely Woman that was most fitte and altogether borne for the affayres to bee administred Neither was there any néede to chose Nicephorus but violently and with craft while Irene was sick he gat the Empire from her and ruled it farre worse than shee did And as for Charles the greate chosen Emperour in the West it came nothing by the occasion of this Empresse but by the falsehood of Leo the Bishop of Rome and his predecessors that vnder pretence of Images had rebelled in the time of Leo Isaurus her father in lawe and vtterly reuolted from the Empire of the Grecians and fledde to the French Neuerthelesse the Empresse Irene by her prudence so laboured the matter that by the marriage of Charles the greate and her the West and the East Empire had béen re-united into one state but that by the treason of Nicephorus she was hindred and desposed Not long after succéeded Theodora with her sonne Theophilus For saith Cuspinian hee being a childe was not able to order the reines of the Empire and the administration of Irene the mother of Constantine made that the Gretians not vnwillingly receiued the Empire of a woman This Empresse was no lesse superstitious for the worship of Images then was Irene and yet otherwise for her politike gouernment eleuen yeares space she is greatly praised and her deposition was her sonnes ouerthrow Besides these not onely Zoe alone but her sister Theodora afterward together with her were both Empresses and had the cheefe gouernment of the Empire Eudochia also with her sonnes and after with Diogenes three yeares Nowe if that after the Empire was deuided Danaeus account not these for Empresses of Rome albeit the Chronicles doe still so call the East Empire notwithstanding what shall wée say of Theophania the Empresse that subdued Rome and all the coastes about it vnto her Sonne Otto And did not the mother also of Henry the fourth Gouerne the Empire while her Sonne for his youth was not yet able And howe then hauing so many examples of Womens Gouernment in that state while it was entire béeing seuered in eyther part thereof can this saying of Danaeus bée vpholden that a Woman can-not bee Empresse of the Romaynes As for that he addeth that a Woman likewise
of the Bishops howe were these Elders the praesidents or Gouernours or not rather the gouerned And hee speaketh of them that obtained the honour of their gouernment or Praesidentship not by price of money but by testimonie All which accordeth with our Breth owne saiâ—ngs for the election of Bishops and pastorall Elders And hee speaketh of such tried and approued Elders as Paule in pastorall Elders gaue charge to Timothie But when withall he vseth for their gouernment that verie terme which he vsed in other places speaking also of the Christian assemblies as in his booke de Corona militis where he saith Eucharistia Sacramentum et in tempore victus et omnibus mandatum a Domino etiam ante-lucanis coetibus nec de aliorum manu quam de praesidentium sumimus The Sacrament of thanksgiuing is commanded of the Lord both in the time of repast in al times yea also in our asseÌ„blies before the breake of the daie neither do we receiue it at the hand of anie other thaÌ„ of those that are our PraesideÌ„ts or Gouernors Whereby it is plaine that those of whom heere he saith Praesident probati quique Sentores the Seniors that are Praesidents or that gouerne are euerie one of them tried or approued men wer euerie one of them none other but such as ministred the SacrameÌ„ts of consequence teachers of the word And of such Elders gouerning in the Church of Christ of none other speaketh Clemens Alexandrius who also was an elder in office in time was somwhat elder thaÌ„ TertulliaÌ„ li. 6. Siromat He is in verie deed saith he an elder of the Church a true Deacon that is a minister of Gods wil if so be he do teach the things that are of the Lord not that as he is ordained of meÌ„ neither that he must be accouÌ„ted righteous that is an elder but that he which is righteous should be brought into the eldership c. Wherein making also afterward the degrée of Elder to be in dignitie different from placed betwéene Bishop Deacon he acknowledgeth no such kinde of Elder gouerning the Church in hiâ— time that is not a teacher of the word And the same also is manifest in Irenaeus who in his first booke against heresies ca. 12. saith against the heretike Marcus Wherefore iustlie and aptlie vnto such thy blindnesse the diuine Elder and fit preacher of the truth inueighed against thee c. And in the 2. booke cap. 39. speaking both of Elder in age and office he saith of Christ And so hee was a Senior or Elder among the Seniors that he might be a perfect master in al things not only according to the exposition of the truth but according to age sanctifieng together also the Seniors or Elders himselfe becomming an example vnto theÌ„ c. And againe But because the age of 30. yeres is of a young man of his first towardnesse and stretcheth to 40. euerie one wil graunt that from the 40. or 50. yeres he now declineth into an elder age which age our Lord hauing he taught as the Gospell all the Elders testifie which assembled together vnto Iohn the Disciple of the Lord. And the same thing did Iohn deliuer vnto theÌ„ Now although herein Iraeneus fouly ouer shoote himselfe in Christs age more regarding the relation and tradition of the Elders than exactlie considering the iust time yet still he acknowledgeth those that were called Elders not in yéeres but in office concerning the Ecclesiasticall state of Christ his Church to be such as taught the witnesse relation of those things that were deliuered them by the Apostles though they remembred not so well the Apostles reckoning And this he hath more plaine li. 3. ca. 2. when againe we chalenge them that are against the tradition to come to that traditioÌ„ which is from the Apostles which is kept in the Churches by the succession of the Elders they will say they being more wise not only than the Elders but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere truth And li. 4. ca. 43. Wherfore it behoueth vs to heare these Elders that are in the Church those which haue their succession from the Apostle as wee haue shewed who with the succession of the Bishop haue according to the decree of the Father receiued a sure grace or gift of the truth And in the next Chapter But such as of many are supposed to be Elders but serue their pleasures c. froÌ„ all such therefore we must abstaine cleaue vnto these which as wee haue also said before keepe the doctrine of the Apostles with their order of the Eldership shew forth the sound word their conuersation without offence to the information and correction of the residue Wherunto alleaging the examples of Moses Samuel and S. Paul he saith Euen as the Apostle Paul when he was of good conscience sayde to the Corinthians For we are not as many are adulterating the word of God wee haue corrupted nâ—ne we haue circuÌ„uented none such Elders doth the church nourish Of whoÌ„ also the Prophet saith And I will giue thee thy Princes in peace and thy Bishops in righâ—eousnesse Of whom also the Lord said VVho therefore is a faithfull agent good and wise whom the Lord shall preferre ouer his familie to giue them meate in time Happie is that seruant whom the Lord shall find so doing when he coÌ„meth What can be plainer than this to shew that by the name of these Presbyters Priests or Elders in the gouernment of the Church Irenaeus alwaies meant such as were teachers of the word and none other Iustine the martyr in his defence of the Christians vnto the Emperour Antoninus mencioneth as we haue séene one onlie gouernor of the congregation whom he calleth the chiefe brother But he telleth withal that he maketh the exhortation to the congregation before the receiuing of the Sacrament he offereth the praiers and thankesgiuing first celebrateth the whole action of the Lords supper the Deacons deliuer the bread the cup to euerie one present of other Elders or Gouernors among theÌ„ that I can find he maketh no mencion As for Ignatius because our Bre. in their pamphlet of the learned mans iudgemeÌ„t for the 3. kinds of Bishops do allow of the Bishop mencioned in Ignatius by as good reason they haue also to allow of his Elders Deacons For almost in euery Epistle if they be the Epistles of Ignatius he mencioneth especiallie these thrée maketh the Elders the successors of the Apostles In the first Epistle to the Trallians he saith Be ye subiect to the Elders as to the Apostles of Iesu Christ concerning our hope in whoÌ„ perseuering we shal be found in him And therfore ye must by all meanes please the Deacons which are for the ministerie of Iesus Christ for they are not ministers in meate and drink but of the ministerie of the Church of God
be interpreted both for ciuil Magistrares in the church and also for Bishops and Pastors that are Teachers or for who-soeuer hath any rule and Gouernment committed to him to dee it heedefully and with carefulnesse Nowe vpon these his bare supposall or thinking and on his onely auouching that it can bée interpreted no otherwise which must easily and without any absurdity may bée vnderstood for diuers other Caluine concludeth that therefore euery Churche from the beginning hadde her senate enrolled of Godly graue and holy men that had the iurisdiction of correcting vices Whereas Saint Paule mentioneth no such thing neither in these places nor in any other Neither is there any likelihood that it was in euery Church if it were in some or in any nor Danaeus him-selfe dare goe so farre as to euery Churche but to some Churches Danaeus confesseth that from the beginning there were in-déede pastorall Elders in euery Church And he alleageth a reason saying Cap. 10. For the former and cheefer care was in the Churches that the word of God should be preached And therefore as pastors Preachers should bee chosen The 2. kinde of Elders hee meaneth these Elders nowe in Question was wont to be appointed in euery greater City only wherein there was a large and populous Church and a great number of the faythfull which is cleane contrary both to Caluine and to our Brethren in this Learned discourse that woulde haue these Elders in euerie church and Congregation And much lâ—sse doth this appeare that it was in euery Church euen from the very beginning thereof The Apostles themselues had not the office of Deacons no not in Hierusalem the Mother Church of all from the beginning But in continuaunce the same was added as the number increasing there grewe neede of them But Caluine proceeding on this conclusion saith that nowe it was not an order of one age meaning it was of more then one And Seculum an age is commonly vnderstoode for an hundreth yeares As though it left not of in so short a space and hereupon he puts him-selfe for proofe to the declaration of the experience But what time or whether any mofull ages or howe many he him-selfe declareth not but leaneth vs to search But for that we haue already searched wee can-not hear so much as of any one age Age nay nor one yeare nor one Moneth nor one wéeke nor one day nor one houre nor one moment eyther of anie one such Senate or but of one such maÌ„ for any certainty that we haue hetherto founde But in all the experience that our Brethren hetherto haue declared we haue founde eyther playne proofe or farre more probalilitie that all those whome they haue alleaged were such Elders as withall were Ministers of the Worde And yet if all this that Caluine vpon his bare thinking runneth on withall coulde be auouched it were not able to bear out his final conclusion for these his supposed Elders saying Therefore this office also of Gouernment is necessary for all ages Where indéede he might haue concluded much better that it is not necessary for all ages Yea although there had béene experience of some ages Churches or persons yet wanting a rule and commaundement for them what necessitie can or ought to be perpetually imposed on all Churches for them without a manifest oppression of our Christian liberty And therefore away with this Worde necessary except it bee construed in some gentle sence especially when as yet we haue not certainlie found in the experience of the Doctors and of the Fathers and of the historiographers any one age of the Church of Christe since nor in the Apostles age that had any such Ecclesiasticall Senate of Gouerning and not teaching Elders as they imagine and woulde obtrude vnto vs. And sith Caluine heere referreth that testimony of S Paule Ephesians 4. vers 11. to no other but to such as were teachers of the worde and S. Paule sheweth the reason why those giftes and offices were giuen to wit For the renewing â—f the Sayntes into the worke of the administration of the body of Christe vntill we all come into the vnity of fayth and of the knowledge of the Sonne of God into a perfect man and into the measure of a full ripe age that wee shoulde not nowe bee Children any longer which are caried away with euery blast of Doctrine but following the trueth in loue wee shoulde waxe strong by all thinges in him that is the heade to witte Christe in whome the whole body being coupled and compacted through out euery ioint of the Ministration according to the act in the measure of euery part maketh the encrease of the body to the edification of it selfe by loue Ephes. 4. If all this can bée done by the offices there cited of the which none haue perpetuity hereunto but these twain as our Brethren deuide them which may be also well contracted vnto one Pastors and Doctors either our Gouerning Elders that our Brethren pleade for must bee included within these and then can they not bee such as they pleade for for they woulde haue them neither Pastors and Doctors but a distinguished office from them both and not medling with teaching which is the cheefest thing in Pastors and Doctors or else there is no necessity of their perpetuity nor of necessary helping to the accomplishment of these so necessary endes If they replie that the Deacons neither be there mentioned and yet they be perpetuall and helping hereunto albeit we shall God willing hereafter sée in their more proper treatise howe they are perpetuall and necessary and how not yet what letteth but that as at the very first erection of them they were not excluded from teaching and preaching example Steuen and Philip. Neither can this shift serue to say that Philip besides was Euangelist except they shew the like also for Steuen And why then may not Deecons be comprehended in S. Pauls partition Eph. 4. well ynough and so Gouernors Interpreters Healers Helpers speakers with diuerse languages which might bee all teachers saue onely these not teaching but gouerning Ecclesiasticall Elders Whose office as implying a contradiction of teaching and not teaching is not compatible with the other offices And if as Danaeus here sayth the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernaunce that the Apostle vseth Rom. 12. bee there generall howe is it then restrayned to such a proper kinde of Ecclesiasticall Gouernment of Elders not teachers more than of teaching elders or more then of Deacons And if Paule as Danaeus saith vse the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for these gouernors which is either proper to Deacons or taken generally for the Ministery why may it not better comprehend the pastors and teachers which ordinarily are called Ministers then these gouerning elders that are nor teachers The next proof out of the scripture that Danaeus citeth after his former allegation of Hierome ad Rusticum for the imitation of the Iewes Synedrion
for we receiue not Philip for a Christian Emperour and long time after there were Christian Emperours euen as long as any puritie continued in Religion vntill both Emperours and Synodes were thrust out of all lawfull authoritie which they ought to haue in the Church by the tyranny of Antichriste I graunt the Synodall authoritie to bee graunted to the church by our Sauiour Christe to be practized by his Apostles and to bee continued by their successors three hundred yeares not before there were any Christian Emperours but before there were any such Christian Emperors as onelie proclaimed the maintenaunce and profession of the Christian faith as Constantine his successors did For Constantius Chlorus the Father of this Constantine the great is commended by Eusebius lib. 8. cap. 14. in these wordes Not long after Constantius the Emperor passing all others throughout his life in clemencie and goodnesse towardes his subiectes singularly affected towardes Gods worde ended according to the Lawe of nature the common race of his mortall life Leauing behinde him his naturall sonne Constantinus Emperour and Caesar to supplie his room And was first related of them meaning the Heathen into the number of the Gods Enioying after his death all imperiall honor and dignitie due to his person In his life hee was moste benigne and of most bountifull soueraignty among all the Emperours who alone of all the Emperors in our time gouerned most gratiously and honourablie during the whole tearme of his reigne shewing humanity and bountifulnesse vnto all men no partaker by anie meanes with any presumptuous sedition raysed agaynst vs hee garded the Godly about him in securitie without sentence of gilt and without all contumelye hee destroyed no Churches hee practized no impietye that mighte bee preiudiciall to oure Religion He obtayned a blessed life and an end thrise happy He being Emperour alone ended this life both gloriously and peaceably in the presence of his naturall sonne and successour who also was moste prudent and Religious His Sonne Constantinus beeing proclaymed full Emperour and Caesar by the armie and long before by God him selfe the vniuersall King became a follower of his Fathers pietie in Christian religion All this his commendation writeth Eusebius who was also liuing in his dayes And to confirme this he telleth also lib. 1. De vita Constantini cap. 11 Howe he fayned that he woulde put all the Christians which would professe their religion out of their offices and preferre the Paganes But when they which were Godlie Christians gaue vp their offices and chose rather to leaue their honors then to leaue their profession of the Christian fayth hee embrased them and those which offered to deny Christe to kéepe their dignities hee vtterly remooued from his person affirming that they woulde neuer be faithfull to the Prince which were vnfaithfull to God Whereby it appeareth that he was a true and Godly Christian Emperor Whereupon Eusebius concludeth that not onely he himself but his subiects also did enioy by him a pleasaunt conuersation in holinesse and deuotion towardes God Hee banished out of his Court Idolaters and dissemblers in religion and hee receiued and iudged those moste worthie to bee about an Emperour which confessed Gods trueth commaunding such to haue the guard both of his person and Dominion Hee serued and worshipped the onely true God Hee condemned the multitude of the Gods that the wicked had Hee fortified his house with the prayers of holy and faythfull men and hee did so consecrate his pallace to the seruice of God that his housholde was a congregation within his pallace hauing Gods Ministers and whatsoeuer is requisite for a Christian Congregation And although our Brethren peremptorily doe say wee receyue not Philip for a Christian Emperour yet wee haue hearde howe Eusebius telleth that though at the first hee was not of the Church of Christe so receyued by reason of his notorious sinnes neuerthelesse on his repentaunce and confession hee was at length receyued into the assemblie of the Christians at Rome euen as a Christian and of consequent as a Christian Emperour except the Christians woulde haue denied him to bee Emperour because hee was become a Christian. In-déede hée coulde not such was the iniquitie of the time then make open profession of his Christianitie or if he began it he was too soone cut off But this impediment was no debarre vnto his right if hee had had such time and occasion as had Constantine But had there bene no Christian Emperors before Constantine the great yet were there in other Countries mo Christian Princes besides those that were the Emperours of Rome yea to goe no further than this our owne Countrie was not here King Lucius a Christian besides other Christian Princes after him To which Lucius also as wee finde in aunciâ—nt recordâ— thereof a letter was written by Eleutherius Bishop of Rome anno Dom. 202. in these wordes following You required that we should sende you the Romane and Emperiall lawes that you might vse them in your kingdome of Brytannie But those lawes we may disprooue and not the lawes of God You haue of late through the goodnesse of GOD receaued in your kingdome the fayth and lawe of Christe you haue there in your kingdome both the Testamentes out of them by the grace of God and the aduice of your Realme take you a lawe and thereby Gouerne patiently your kingdome You are in your kingdome the Vicar of God according to the saying of the kingly Prophet The earth is the Lordes and his fulnesse is the whole worlde and all the dwellers therein And againe thou hast loued righteousnesse and hated iniquitie wherefore GOD euen thy God hath annoynted thee with the oyle of gladnesse abâ—ue thy fellowes They are the kinges children Christian Nations and people of your kingdome that liue and consist vnder your protection peace and kingdome according to the scripture euâ—n as the Henne gathereth her chickensvnder her winges The people and Nations of the kingdome of Brytannie is yours Such as are deuided you shoulde gather them together vnto the lawes of Christe vnto his holie â—hurch vnto peace and concorde And you should cherish mayntaine protect gouerne and defend them from the iniurious from the malitious and from the enemies of them VVoe to that kingdome whose king as a chilâ—e and the Princes eaâ—e early in the mourning I do not call the king a child for his youth and minoritie but for his follie iniquitie and madnesse according to the kingly Prophet the bloudthirstie and deceitfull men shall not liue out halfe their dayes By eating we shall vnderstande gluttonie by gluttonie luxurie by luxurie all silth wickednesse and mischiefe as sayth king Salomon wisdome will not enter into a malitious soule nor inhabite in a bodie thrall to sinne A King hath his name of gouerning and not of his kingdome So long shall you be a King as you rule well Otherwise you shall not so be
seconde instance which is as they say For explication of the clause in the article of predestination where it is sayde that the elect may fall from grace and such like matters Whether it bee negligence or willfull peruerting that I knowe not but I conster it rather to the gentler faulte notwithstanding for those that professe themselues to be faythfull Ministers and to sette foorth a learned discourse and thus grosselye to burthen the articles yea one of the chiefest articles in doctrine agreed vppon by all the learned Clergye of the Realme and aprooued by all the authoritye and states of the realme with grosse and palpable errour and to charge the Article with an euident vntruth if this discourse maye vaunt of learning yet I woulde with that the learned discoursers were a little more faythfull Ministers leaste this parte thereof might of any be termed not a learned but a lewde and vndiscreete discoursing Where it is sayde in the article of predestination which is the seuenteenth article that the elect may fall from grace or any such lyke matter in that article the wordes of the article are these Predestination to lyfe is the euerlasting purpose of GOD whereby before the foundations of the worlde were layde hee hath constantlye decreede by his Counsaile secrete to vs to deliuer from cursse and damnation those whome hee hath chosen in Christe of mankinde and to bring them by Christ to euerlasting saluation as vessels made to honour Wherefore they which bee endewed with so excellent a benefite of God be called according to Gods purpose by his spirite woorking in due season they through grace obeye the calling they bee iustified freely they bee made sonnes of GOD by adoption they bee made like the Image of his onelye begotten sonne Iesus Christe the walke religiouslye in good woorkes and at length by Gods mercie they atteyne to euerlasting felicitye As the Godlye consideration of predestination and our election in Christ is full of sweete pleasan◠and vnspeakeable comforte to godlye persons and such as feele in themselues the woorking of the spirite of Christ mortifying the workes of the fleshe their earthly members drawing vp their minde to high and heauenly thinges aswell because it doth greately establish and confirme their fayth of eternall saluation to bee enioyed through Christ as because it doth feruently kindle their loue towardes God so for curious and carnall Pastors lacking the spirite of Christ to haue continually before their eies the sentence of gods predestination is a most daungerous downefall wherby the diuell doth thrust them eyther into desperation or into rechlesnes of most vncleane liuing no lesse perilous than desperation Furthermore we must receaue gods promises in such wise as they be generally set foorth to vs in holy scripture and in our doinges that will of God is to be followed which we haue expressly declared vnto vs in the word of God This againe is the whole article of predestination and election worde by word set downe as it is in the booke And now what one sentence or but one worde is here that our brethren can prooue to bee erroneous not grosse and palpable as they say but to haue any spice neuer so couertly conueyed of any the least errour in the worlde if our bretheren be of sounde iudgement in this article as I hope they be Or what doubtfull spéeches are there in this article that néede explication for feare they might be vnderstoode erroneously But where are heere these words that our bretherē haue by name burdened this article of predestination withall saying for explication of the clause in the article of predestination where it is sayde that the elect may fall from grace and such like matters May not our bretheren be ashamed so grossely and palpablie to fall from this grace of telling the truth so oftentimes before but specially heere in so great a matter challenging one of the principall articles of our religion for grosse and palpable errours or vntruths and their selues to fall intoso open so vntrue and foule a sclaunder But to helpe our brethren as much as we may with the true cleering of our selues from so great and dangerous a sclaunder for our brethren harpe here about some thing they meane be like in the 16 article which is not as they saye of predestination but of sin after baptisme where it is sayde thus Not euery deadly sin willingly committed after baptisme is sin against the holy ghost and vnpardonable Wherefore the graunt of repentance is not to bee denyed to such as fall into sin after baptisme After wee haue receaued the holy ghoste we maye departe from grace giuen and fall into sin and by the grace of God we may arise againe and amende our liues and therefore they are to bee condemned which say they can no more sinne as long as they liue heere or denye the place of forgiuenesse to such as truely repent Héere indéede this article sayth that after we haue receaued the holy ghoste wee maye departe from grace giuen and fall into sinne and by the grace of God wee maye arise agayne and amende our liues And is there any errour or anye darkenesse or doubtfulnesse or suspicion or inclination to errour in these woordes for although they speake here generally and mention not the elect of whome they speake in the article following which wée haue alreadye perused yet neyther speake they of falling from grace which woorde falling might perhaps bée construed of them in the harder sence as though they were destitute of all grace and cleane voyde of the spirite of God neyther the woordes nor the sence tendeth to any suche matter but are onely these that after weehaue receaued the holy ghost we may depart from grace giuē fal into sin c. Nowe whether this bee vnderstoode of the Elect or not maye not such as are not of the number of the Elected bée truely sayde also to haue receaued the holye Ghoste in the giftes of some graces of the holye Ghoste giuen vnto them The Apostle saythe 1. Cor. 12. No man can say Iesus is the Lorde but by the holye Ghoste And yet sayth Christ. Matthew 7.21 c. Not euerye one that sayth vnto mee lord Lorde shall enter into the kingdome of Heauen but hee that doth the will of my Father that is in Heauen and manye will saye to me in that day Lorde Lord haue wee not by thy name prophecied and by thy name caste out Deuilles and by thy name done manye greate woorkes And then I will professe to them I neuer knewe you departe from mee yee that woorke iniquitye And yet those that receaued these giftes of working miracles c. They were graces giuen thē of the holy Ghoste And Sainct Paule calleth them Charismata and spirituall giftes the administration operation and manifestation of the spyrite the diuersities of whose giftes he reckoneth vp as wée haue seene 1. Cor. 12. And did
any more than the very Papistes and the Pope graunteth and whether euen this also doe not touch these learned discoursers Of the authoritie and dealing of the auncient Princes besore Christes comming and of the Christian Princes since his comming Of our Bretherens reuerence to the auncient Christian Princes in the Romaine Empyre and in the Kingdoms of France Spayne and of this our Britanie Of the Emperours authoritie dealings in Ecclesiasticall matters in the greatest Councels and of their Ecclesiasticall sanctions Of the French Kings authoritie and dealing in the same Of the authoritie and dealings of the Kings in Spayne Of the authoritie and dealing of the Kings in England and of tâ—e Ecclesiasticall lawes of the auncient Saxon Kings Of the Princes dealing herein by the aduice of their learned Clergie and whether their aduice inferre their sole superiour authoritie Of the Princes seruice of God their father and seruing the coÌ„moditie of the Church their mother Of the testimonies of Esa 49.23 Psalm 2.11 1. Tim. 2.2 and of the Papistes and our Bretherens applying the same How farre the endes and benefites of a Prince doe stretch and how the Prince is both a childe and yet withall a foster father or Nurse vnto the Church All which being declared for the authoritie of the Prince our Bretheren make their Epilogus of all this learned discourse First concerning their owne perswasion for this prescribed forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernment to bee agreeable to Gods word and coÌ„senting to the example of the Primitiue Church And of their auouching that they be able so to proue it and of their promise that when occasion shall serue they will proue it so to bee Of their solemne protestation why in the meane tyme they set foorth this learned discourse and what they seeke herein And of the true way to reformation And of their mouing them that be in authoritie to put this prescribed forme in practise And of their offering vp their bookes hereof vnto the Parliament And how this doing is cleane contrary to the chiefest positions in this learned discourse And of renewing agayne these controuersies by disputation And of the euent of this forme if it should be embraced And of their desire that either this forme prescribed or if not this yet the like may be receiued and how vncerteyne this desire of theirs is and how we may or may not see and iudge what is the vttermost of their desires herein Of their sclaunders of the present state and that wee are the aduersaries of Gods trueth and how wee be hinderers of their proceeding to reformation And of this learned discourse to be their publike testimoniall to the present age and that the posteritie may know that the trueth in this tyme was not vnknowne nor vntestified concerning the right regiment of the Church and whether this can be knowne hereby yea or no. Of their disordered speeches agaynst our regiment of the Church and whether it be receiued of the most parte of Poperie and how this redoundeth on our Bretheren How they accuse theirs and our godly fathers of neglecting in this poynt for deliuering our Ecclesiasticall regiment to their children without contradiction and how preiudiciall they complayne that this is vnto them Last of all of their conclusion by prayer to God for the pacification of these matters AND now that we haue set forth the whole Ecclesiasticall Ministerie according to the word of God with all the dueties and authorities that perteyneth vnto it the place requireth that wee should also intreate of the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in matters Ecclesiasticall THankes bee giuen to God that now at length our Bretheren here confesse for I hope they say it not for a vaunt that they haue set foorth the whole Ecclesiasticall Ministerie with all the dueties and authorities that perteyne vnto it So that if now either they themselues or any other among them adde any thing or alter any thing of the dueties or of the authoritie of the Ecclesiastical Ministerie then is either this or that conuinced not to bee the whole Ecclesiasticall ministerie nor all the dueties and authorities that perteyne vnto it as here they say this is But we haue seene in perusing this their learned discourse in how many things and those of moment materially perteyning to the Ecclesiasticall ministerie and to the dueties and authorities of the same how they haue often altered and varied one from another and runne into playne contradictions besides a number of other and other manner of poyntes that I could gather and set downe and GOD willing shall at large if our Bretheren shall call for them onely now I note a fewe of those that this learned discourse hath led me vnto And therefore either their other discourses or this their learned discourse is not altogether as here they say according to the word of God And now sith that they haue discoursed and set foorth the whole and all that they could or would for their Ecclesiasticall ministerie and all the dueties and authorities perteyning vnto it I beseech thee which art the Protestant reader hereof in the feare of God bearing thy selfe euen indifferently as to those that on either parte though dissenting in these matters the one from the other yet in the substance of Religion and vnitie of faith are both of vs thy deare and true Bretheren in Christ because wee on either hand may fauour too much our owne parties and be caried away in the heate of our disputes that thou wilt vouchsafe so neere as God shall giue thee grace and an vnderstanding heart to bee a true Iudge and an vpright vmpeere betweene all them God knowes who and how many that call them selues all the faithfull ministers that seeke for the discipline and reformation of the Church of England on the one partie and euen poore myne owne selfe God wotte in this action on the other partie and betweene their learned discourse as they intitle it of Ecclesiasticall gouernment and my vnlearned as I confesse and course aunswere thereunto setting aside for the whyle all fauour and partialitie which disturbe a cleere iudgement euen as GOD shall helpe thee and be thy true Iudge and so I commit and commend it to Gods good speeding and to thy indifferent reading weighing and iudging of it And here now when our Bretheren haue thus to the full discoursed on the whole Ecclesiasticall ministerie and all the dueties and authorities that perteyne vnto it at length they begin to finde some leisure to bethink themselues of the Christian Prince and to giue him yet some remaynder at least in the last lapping vp of all this learned discourse So that if the Christian Princes haue not the blessing before hande so plentifully powred foorth as vppon Iacob to haue the dewe of heauen and fatnesse of the earth and to bee Lordes ouer their Bretheren and honoured of their mothers children yet as one borne out of tyme as
contradictions inconueniences absurdities ambiguities and a number of vndutifull reproches of the pastors of the Bishops of the Magistrates of the Prince of the whole church state and realme wherewith this their publike testimoniall is not onelie interlaced but full fraught Which the present age séeing and considering might rather reiect it for an infamous libell vnorderly crept out and scattered abrode in the name of all the faithfull ministers and yet not one of all their names set vnto it rather than accept it for anie lawfull autentike and publike testimoniall And as our brethren saie they meant this for the age present so say they And that the posteritie maie know that the truth in this time was not generallie vnknowne nor vntestified concerning the right regiment of the church of God nor this disordered forme of ecclesiasticall gouernment which we haue receaued for the most part of poperie c. Loe howe our Brethren still holde out to the harde ende their boystrous reproches of our disordred forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernment and that wee haue receaued it for the most part of Poperie and it was within little that they sayde not for all of poperie as the most part doth often times goe for all But with them these spéeches goe not for sclaunders but for friendly admonitions and brotherly testimonials of their good opinion of our state and vs. Yea these and all the rest are vttered That the posteritie may knowe What should they knowe Howe to ruffle in the like Rhetoricall figures What should they knowe Howe these that went before them left behinde them such a reprochfull testimoniall of the present age Is not this a faire recorde and full worthy to be commended to the posteritie for a perpetuall memorie But they say they shall knowe hereby that the truth in this time was not generally vnknowen nor vntestified concerning the right regiment of the Church of God And how shal they knowe this By this Learned Discourse and publike testimoniall as they call it testified by a generall indiuiduum vagum Sir Nicholas Nemo and all his companie of faithfull Ministers May this in lawe be admitted for a lawefull recorde and publike testimoniall of the truth Veritas non quaerit angulos Well yet the posteritie may knowe that the truth in this time was not vnknowen nor vntestified concerning the right regiment of the Church of God Truth indéede the truthe God be praysed for it is not generally vnknowen especially in this time Yea thankes be to God it is knowen and testified more generally at this time than for generalitie it hath béen knowen as I suppose at any time not excepting in that respect the very time of the Apostles If our liues were generally also aunswerable to our generall knowledge and to our publike testification Neyther is in this time the right regiment of the Church of GOD generally vnknowen or vntestified but was generally knowen and testified well inough before the publike testimoniall of this Learned Discourse came foorth Neither doe we or can we take any certaine knowledge concerning the right regiment of the Churche hereby Yea it should seeme that their owne selues except in some generalitie and superficiall knowledge do not as yet know it nor can testifie what it is For if this be the right regiment of the Churche that in this publike testimoniall they prescribe vnto vs it hath not onely béene generally and altogether vnknowen and vntestified in anie time heretofore vntill this time that his Learned Discourse came foorth and before was neuer heard of I meane for this forme taking it altogether as it is heere discoursed except for some parcelles of it testified of late by others But for anie certaine knowledge it is not yet eyther generally made knowen and testified vnto the present age or to the posteritie by this publike testimoniall nor particularly vnto the testies themselues for all that they boldly affirme this to be the right regiment of the Church and yet when they haue neuer so truely testified and discoursed neuer so learnedly all that they can with all their heades layde together their verie desire in the ende and summe of all is but eyther to haue this or the like to bee receaued But if this be the right then eyther this or the wrong there is no like wil serue the turne And is their desire to haue either right or wrong they care not whether so they may be ridde of this regiment that nowe we haue If this regiment séeme too hoate vnto them will they leape with the Flounder out of the frying pan into the fire But God be praysed they néede not frie except they frie in their owne hoate and fretting choller at the regiment of the Church of Englande vnder GOD and her Maiestie it is generally a good Regiment and right inough according to the establishment of the lawes therof if our Brethren would coole their ouer-hoate passions and be thankefull to God and vnder him to her Maiestie for it As for this publike testimoniall of our Brethren if our regiment of the Church be not right the posteritie shal neuer know by theirs what is right or wrong or that the right regiment of the Church was made knowen or testified in this time either generally or particularly or that is most to be desired certainely by such a doubtfull testification of vncertaine desires that either this or the like or else we can not tell what might be receaued As for that they call our regiment of the Churche a disordred forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement it is but their owne disordred forme of not gouerning well their mindes and tongues Our forme both for the formal material lawes orders therof is far more formal material than this forme of their is Yea if it should come to this or the like what mishapen forme we might happen to haue wee can not yet fore-tell nor they can tell vs. As for that which we haue alreadie we knowe it and we knowe the verie worst thereof The best of theirs is yet vncertaine I graunt our forme is not so well ordered but that there may and do fall out disorders but those happen by the abuse thereof And so it may be in any forme of gouernment neuer so good by mens infirmities or corruptions wherewith the forme it selfe is not to be charged And yet I goe not about to defende our forme or to vaunt thereof for anie such absolute perfection that it could not be altered or amended what Lawe is there not that man can make but it may bee or rather is vnperfect As for the forme that they haue here set foorth be it spoken with our Brethrens pardō if they please besides their disordered setting it forth the very forme it selfe is eyther much disordered or else other formes that other of our Brethren haue also set foorth or that other reformed Churches are gouerned by not onely in Germanie but in Héluetia
preach The preaching of a sermon no necessary part of the sacrament The abuses of the Lords supper that S. Paule reproued in the Corinth No probability that S. paul thought preaching at the communion to be so absolutely necessary as our Breth vrge it The vse and practise of the Apostles in the communion Act. 2.42 The Geneua note Caluinus in Act. 2. 1. doctrine 2. the communion or brotherly loue 3. the sacrament 4. prayer Marloratus in Act. 2. Act. 20 â— c 7. 11. The primitiue church The practise of the primitiue Church Iustinus Martyr in defens pro Christ. ad Antoninum Pium. Iustinus Martyr The ministration of the L. supper without a sermon The supper of the Lord ministred with a sermon Iustines words maintaine neither transubstantiation nor consubstantiation Iustinus in dialogo cum Triphone Iudeo impress paris 1565. fol. 42. The occasioÌ„ of mingling water with the wine in the sacram Aretius in probl â—om 2. tit de fract panis The Heluetian order Aretius description of ministring the Lordes supper in the reformed Churches of Heluetia Kneeling at the communion not offensiue The learned disc pag. 60. 61. Bridges Abilitie of expounding Abilitie to expouÌ„d the mysterys of the sacram Vnable ministers not allowed The learned disc pag. 61. Bridges How the elements are dead beggerly Caluinus in Coll. 2. Caluinus in Gal. 4. A generall preaching Aug. tractat in Ioh. 80. The ioining of the word to the elemens Rom. 10. Act. 15. â— Pet. 3. The word preâ—ching at the face comprehendeth the action of all the people The worde abused The wordes that Christ spake in that action were not preaching Oleuianus in Rom. 10.8 * In visua The Papists magicall abuse of the word The worde rightly vsed The sacrameÌ„tall signes hauing the word so vttered by the ministers as it may be vnderstood are not beggerly elementes The life of the sacr liâ—th not in the manner of preching the word Our forms of sacram Baptisme may be ministred with out a sermoÌ„ How clearely the word is set foorth in our form of baptisme How fully the worde all the mystâ—rie of Châ—ists deth and our vnion with him is set foorth in our form of the communion Sacrilege Our Breth intemperate speeches against our formes of minisâ—ting the sacram Caluinus in Epist. 265. No necessitie of preaching at baptisme Caluinus in Gal. 4. â— How the Papistes committed sâ—crilege in the L. supper How sermons are very profitable at the sacrament Caluin in instit cap. 18. sect 34. Four kinds of preaching The diuerse kindes of preaching in the Lords supper The papistes mute actioÌ„s in the Lords supper What is the preaching of the words of Christe Caluines order in the Lordes supper The sacrament ministred according to our forme hath a true consecration The forme that Caluin prescribeth with a fourth kind of preaching Musc. for the M. of the Sacrment that are not preachers The reformed Churches wherin the Minist that are not preachers do minister the sacraments Many can minister the Sacrament that cannot preache Musculus for the pointes requisite in the sacrament VVhat kind of preaching Musculus requireth in the L. Supper The seale the writing ioyned The effect of Musculus argument Ministers forbidden to preach The learned Dis. Pag. 61. Bridges We haue both the seale and the writing ioined in our form of sacrament The learned disc Pag. 61. Bridges What ministers herein wee defend defend not Our brethr accusation lighteth on their own selues Baptizme by Women The force of the sacrament substance therof dependeth not vpoÌ„ the ministers not preaching The learned disc pag. 61. 62. 1. Cor. 13 34 1. Tim. 2.11 Bridges Baptising by women Baptisme in priuate places Womens speaking in the Congregation The Eunuches baptisme Acts. 8. Cornelius Baptisme Acts. 10. The cleare light of the Gospell debarreth not al perticuler necessities of occasion nor diuersityes of circumstances preiudicate the substaÌ„ce or vertue of the sacrament Necessity of baptisme Nâ—cessity of â—â—rcuâ—ncisioÌ„ Necessity of baptism Gellius Snecanus in methodâ— baptis parte 6. The forme baptizing sâ—t down by Snecanus Hellopaeus de sacrameÌ„tis cap. de bapt pag. 120. Cap. 8. pag. 155. Howe farre womens extraordinarie bapâ—â—sme De post facto iâ— iâ—proued CircumstaÌ„ces in baptisme Cap. 8.171 The form of baptizing allowed by Heâ—lopeus Baptism effectuall and formall ynough with out a sermoÌ„ The custom of answering in the childes name The words of consecration What is the word added to the element to make the sacrament in the L. Supper Tâ—e onely words of the Institution doe make consecration Which are woâ—des of the institution Beza for the forme effect of Bapt. Bezaes opinion of holding the infant vnder the water Baptisme true Baptisme witâ—out a â—ermâ—oÌ„ The truth of Bapt. for al the abuses How true lawfull we may better thinke our Bapâ—isme is Bezaes saying confutes our Learned discoursers Our Brethr. more allow of the Papistes ministration of the sacraments than of the Protestants that are not precherâ— Necessitie of Bapt. Baptisme hath more neede to be receaued lesse neede of a sermon to the receiuer of it Whatnecessitie we denie or grant in the sacrament Christes in situation Whâ—t is and is not necessarily conteyned in Christes institution of the sacr The daungerous sequele of our Breth assertion The Popish corruptions Beza in confess Christ. cap. 4. 〈◊〉 35. Our Breth vse the sacr without the pub assemb and times prescribed of the Church Bezaes modestie Bezaes modestie Our Brethr. contradiction Our Breth dangerous positions Our Brethr. absurdities in this assertion The learned Dis. Pag. 62. 63. 1. Cor. 1.17 Bridges Our Brethr. most daungerous conclusion Baptisme banished throughout the most part of Christendome No preacher no sacrament What a state our Breth vnder pretence of making it better would bring vs vnto The duty of a good Curate that is no preacher The inconuenience of our Brethr. rule No preacher no sacrament Our Brethr. extraordinary order till all places caÌ„ be furnished with preachers The daungers flowing from this rule Principall and accessorie Preaching is not the principall thing but accessory to the sacram What is the principall thing in the sacrament Beza in confess cap. 4. art 35. The coÌ„mendation of the sacram Calminus in 1. Cor. 1.17 The separation of the sacr and preaching How the administratioÌ„ of the sacr preaching may be ioyned and separated How our Breth owne positions ouerthâ—owe themselues Act. 16.16 The learned Dis. Pag. 63. 64. Act. 6.4 1. Tim. â— â— 1 Cor. 14.16 1. Cor. 14.40 1. Cor. 14.16 Bridges The Iewes publike prayers A pâ—escribed forme of prayers diuine seruice among the Iewes before Christes coÌ„ming Numb 6.22 c. 1. Chron. 9.33 1. Chron. 16.4 7. The Geneua note 1. Chr. 21.2 The Iewes order in the Apostles time The publike prayers in the Apostles times The Christians order in the Apostles time Col. 4.16 Ephes. 5.19 1. Cor. 14.26 The
they here giue thē an harder title to be not the greatest fauourers then that I hope they will say they implie our gratious Soueraigne in that tearme If then they meane that we liue vnder such a blessed Prince as fauoureth the Gospell doe these men speake it in good sooth as indéede sooth it is or doe they Iest or speake it but for fashion sake But howe-soeuer they séeme to glaunce hereat for they neither say it in expresse wordes but as it were by comparison doe séeme to inferre as much in telling vs of other places in the worlde where the Princes are not the greatest fauourers notwithstanding they tell vs neither what thing it is whereof they are not the greatest fauourers But I ghesse that in this their Rhetoricall breuitie they meane that they fauour not the Gospell or the Church of God For it séemeth they referre it not to this Regiment that themselues fauour and desire For so they knowe that her Maiestie being also not the greatest fauourer of their desired Regiment they might conclude that the Churche of Englande which they crie out of to bee in a state disordered should bée in that most blessed estate which they desire They séeme therefore to meane this that her Maiestie is indéede a fouourer of the Gospell or Church of God and yet the state of the Churche of God vnder Her Maiestie is in an vnperfect lesse blessed and more disordered estate than it is where the Princes are not the greatest fauourers of the Church of God and of his Gospell Which if it be their meaning as I woulde be loath to gather of their wordes anie thing beyonde their meaning so I had rather they expounded themselues or that their wordes néeded not an expositer as well many times as an aunswere Nowe then if their meaning be thus that her Maiestie is a fauourer of the Gospell and of the Church of God although this in some sense may séeme but a colde and sclender commendation bestowed on her Maiestie to bee but a fauourer as though thee liked well ynough thereof and liked of others that professed it but her selfe were not so zealous a professour and louer of the Gospell yet construyng all this to the best interpretation of her fauour thereunto that her Maiestie is a great fauourer of the Gospell of God and of his Church howe then doth shee so highlie fauour the same and yet not suffer the Church of God to be so perfecte in all her Regiment as where no Christian but Heathen Princes are and not to be in so blessed estate as it is vnder those Ciuill Magistrates that are not the greatest fauourers Meaning indéede vnder a gentle name for reuerence sake are no fauourers at all but so much as they can hate and persecute the Gospell and Church of God and yet will they nill they suffer it more to florishe herein than her Maiestie doeth béeing so great a fauourer of the same What a foule rebuke vnder pretence of commendation is this to her Maiestie Yea what a kinde of fauouring call ye this when the not fauouring of the enemie is better for the Regiment of the Church than the fauourers loue Indéede accidentalli◠thinges may fall out so cleane contrarie as he that thought to kill his enemie did him more good in thrusting him thorough and opening that impostume settered within him then all his friendes and Phisitions that could not helpe him But what gra-mercie was that to him Whereas directly of it selfe is not this threatned of God that he will take awaye a good Prince in his wrath and giue an euill Prince to punishe the wickednesse of his people and doeth not God promise as a great blessing to his Church that Kinges should be the foster fathers and Queenes should be the noursing mothers thereof But by these men they had a better Regiment when they had Pharao to nourse them with drowning of the infantes in the water and oppressing their parentes on the lande and when Herode bathed the infantes in their owne bloud Did GOD meane they shoulde haue suche Pappe with an Hatchet and that Princes should be nourses on that fashion Or did hee rather meane that when he would sende such Princes as should fauour his Gospel and his Church euen as the good nource comforteth and guideth well the childe and is as it were an-other Parent to it vnder whom the childe battelleth and is well brought vppe so next vnder GOD our heauenly Father wée should be nourished fed comforted defended and guided till we growe to our perfect age in Iesu Christe vnder the godlie Gouernement of our Christian Princes And is this that is promised for so great a blessing turned to a curse And the curse turned to so great a blessing God is able indéede to turne all thinges to good God had his Church still euen in the most dreadfull persecutions that euer were and the gold is siner that is tryed in the fornace seuen times So that this redoundeth in the end both to the greater glorie of God and to the better confirmation of his Church But what can we conclude hereon That the Church when such hauocke is made in the congregation and it is dispersed here and there is then more perfect in al her Regiment and in most blessed state S. Paule saith Rom. 5. Where sinne abounded grace did more abound But what shall we say then saieth S. Paule Rom. 6. Shall we continue still in sinne that grace may abound God forbid And in those dayes of more iniquitie abounding in the time of planting amonge the Gentiles the faith and Gospell of Iesus Christe the most parte of the Gentiles raged and the people imagined vaine thinges the kinges of the earth assembled and the rulers came together against the Lorde and against his Christe Al-be-it the faith tooke rooting amonge some both Princes and people And GOD in that extraordinarie time dealt extraordinarilie with them both with extraordinarie gifts and extraordinarie offices Whereby he so helped and beautified that Primitiue estate of the Churche of Christe among all those troubles persecutions dissipations that the Church séemed rather to flourish thē to be oppressed to be In most blessed estate in some respects when in other respectes it was in most pitifull estate as S. Paule sayth 2. Cor. 6. of Gods helpe at such times For he sayth I haue heard thee in a time accepted and in the day of saluation haue I succoured thee Behold now the accepted time behold nowe the day of saluation We giue no occasion of offence in anie thing that our ministerie should not be reprehended but in all thinges wee approue our selues as the ministers of God in much patience in afflictions in necessities in distresses in stripes in prisons in tumults in labours By watchings by fastinges by purenesse by knowledge by long suffering by kindnesse by the holie Ghost by loue vnfeined by the worde of truthe by the power
of God by the armour of righteousnesse on the right hande and on the left by honour and dishonour by euill report and good report as deceauers and yet true as vnknowen and yet knowen as dying and yet behold we liue as chastened and yet not killed as sorowing and yet alwayes reioysing as poore and yet â—aking many riche as hauing nothing and yet possessing all thinges The state of the primitiue Church striuing thus against all these temptations and calamities but by the grace and power of God surmounting them in this respect was in more blessed state then when afterwarde enioying peace and prosperitie and abusing the same contentions and other corruptions arose thereuppon in which respect the state was not so blessed Is therefore persecution and al these troubles better for the regiment of the Church of God then peace prosperitie Yea was not that regiment that the Church had then abused also in those that had the gift of tongues the gift of healing the gift of prophecieng Which gifts not only many among the Corinthians did abuse but also there were maniâ— false Apostles many â—uill Pastors many Teachers of false doctrine some Deacons not all the best And no doubt their Segniories were as much corrupted as the residue if they had anie suche standing officers amonge them as these Discourses doe conceaue and as wherein they saye the Churches regimeÌ„t most consisted with the Pastors Teachers the Deacons So that the Churche of God no not at the time no not in that regiment that she was gouerned by was then so perfect in al her regiment nor in most blessed estate for all that the Apostles were then liuing and for all the extraordinarie giftes and offices that then she had And may we thinke if there had bin such Gouernours among them at that time that eyther they if they had not theÌ„selues béene infected would not haue reformed so manie foule abuses Or did not their authoritie stretch so farre Or would not the residue be rather ruled by such gouernors among themselues then to trouble and endanger themselues being Christians before Infidell Iudges Or if they had had any such gouernors among them would not S. Paul chiding theÌ„ for going to lawe before infidell Iudges not rather haue exhorted yea charged them to haue referreâ— those matters to the Segniorie Gouernors the he had appointed ouer thée If he had appointed any hauing builded so great and famous a Churche of God among them continuing at Corinthus a yeare and a halfe togither or to those that they had chosen among themselues to be their Gouernours if that were the onelie order of the Churches regiment then and of such importance and necessitie Or how chance Saint Paule finding these inconueniences in his absence from them to haue fallen out perhaps bicause there wanted such Gouernours among them dooth not will them among so many precepts perteyning to the regiment of the churche in one place or an other of both his Epistles to chose and ordeine such Gouernours ouer them Or mencioning Gouernours and other giftes and offices 1. Cor. 12. Would not say these Gouernours are those Seniors that either ye haue to direct these matters by or at least if yée haue them not ye ought to haue them But as though they neither had anie suche nor vrging them to haue any such Consistorie of Gouernours ouer them speaking of their hauing busines one against another he saith vnto them 1. Cor. 6. Doo ye not know that the Saints shall iudge the world If the world then shall- be iudged by you are ye vnworthie to iudge the smallest matters Know ye not that we shall iudge the Angels How much more things that perteine to this life If then ye haue iudgement of things pertaining to this life set vp them which are least esteemed in the churche I speake it to your shame Is it so that there is not a wiseman among you no not one that can iudge betweene his bretheren By which wordes it appeareth that not onelie in those matters whatsoeuer they were but that also in other matters perteining to the regiment of the churche being matters perteining to this life they had no such Consistories of Iudges or Gouernours among them Nor S. Paule enforceth any such vpon them but onelie to haue some one or other wise and godlie man to be chosen among themselues and that also without any preiudice to the authoritie of the gouernement then established to bee their Gouernour For they being without a Christian Prince to be their Gouernour and being at that time also giuen to such corruptions and contentions either they must go before Infidels or bréed a confusion among themselues So necessarie at all times is it to haue a Gouernour that euen the primitiue Churche could not be without hir Gouernours And yet neither the thing that S. Paule persuades them to being one of the greatest Christian churches in those daies was to set vp a Consistorie among them but some one Gouernour Neither the matter that he diswades them from is anye other thing more then for bringing their brethren and causes before Infidell Iudges So that this is not to be stretched beyond the state of the Corinthians then nor any rule prescribed to any particular churche of GOD now liuing vnder a prince or Iudge that is a Christian That anye churche may otherwise then by waye of priuate arbitrement as charitable neighborlie and blessed peace makers take authoritie to elect or ordeine hereby among themselues any one or other publike Iudge or Gouernour and much lesse elect among them-selues and set vp a Segniorie or Consistorie of Gouernours in matters perteining to this life as are all indifferent matters perteining to the Ecclesiasticall regiment of the Churche but that when any controuersie ariseth about them in the churche if they be not alreadie prescribed in Gods word we must all after all our deliberations on them bring them to the finall determination and disposition of the godlie christian Princes iudgement and censure how they shall be vsed of the subiects And thus maye we kéepe anye other good order of Iudges and iudgements euen as well in ecclesiasticall as ciuill controuersies according to the gouernement alreadie established with out any more néedâ— of reuiuing those consistories whatsoeuer that were then in any christian churche vsed than of reuiuing this constitution of S. Paule for Iudges For although S. Paule gaue such a prescription of Iudges to them in the wante of other Christian Gouernours yet we that haue now Christian Princes and Christian Iudges and I hope godlie and righteous Iudges also are not bound to chose Iudges in our owne Parishes If we could indéed take vp manie néedlesse controuersies among our selues at home it were well doone and would saue much trauell veration and expenses and perhaps the Iudges might be eased to But if we should therevpon make a rule and say that we must néeds haue
to yéelde to it in the ende and in a byous manner to acknowledge it that the Ecclesiasticall gouernment order for ouerseeing the Churches which they pretend is not of anie necessitie by GOD commanded nor anie perpetuall order to all ages and Churches by Christ and his Apostles prescribed Which if it be not then our Churches state is not so corrupt as they exclaime Nay let them looke then vnto it how trulie they auouch it so to bee and make such a contentious rupture in the Church for it If it be howe can they héere giue anie extraordinarie and temporall order warrant or plakarde for anie meane time to the contrarie So that both wayes our Brethren apparantlie goe about héerein both to abuse themselues and vs. But now thinking that by this Interim wrought by all these foresayd meanes they should effect many and mightie matters our Bretheren waxing bolde procéede to aunswere euen to anie mannes thoughtes that shoulde doubt so much as anie difficultie in bringing about these things If anie man saie they thinke this is ouerhard to bee brought to passe let him consider that there was neuer woorke of more difficultie than to build vp the Church of God so that the necessitie cōmoditie of the work shuld cause vs to staie nothing at the difficultie therof for with our faithfull endeauour wee shall not want the mightie assistance of God who will blesse our godlie labours with greater successe than wee can looke for How hard many of these things are we haue heard alreadie and easilie may coniecture Yea how dangerous and vnnecessarie some of them be and how some of them are alreadie in experience But nowe to our better incouragement to giue the onset on all these meanes wee must imagine that they are the building vp of the Church of God than the which nothing is more necessarie or commodious and therefore nothing should cause vs to staie at the difficultie thereof Verilie Fortis imaginatio can do much as we sée in our Brethren that imagine these presupposals and thereon dare aduenture to enterprise neuer so difficult attemptes to atchieue this their strong imagination But godlie and staied men must not run on such headstrong fantasies but vppon assured groundes Now when we should come to the ground-worke of this building and finde that which our Brethren imagine hath no better foundation on Gods word for the building vp of such a frame as they and not the word of God prescribeth withall that this their modill which they haue complotted is the manifest scattering and pulling downe of that which in the Church of God is alreadie builded and for the chiefest part is not so necessarie and in some pointes most dangerous besides the difficultie to bring the same to passe no meruaile though so many staie and dare not hazard to build on this platforme and in this manner as our Brethren call vpon vs. For as Saint Paul saith Gal. 2.18 If I build againe the things which I haue pulled downe I make my self a trāsgressor so If I pul down the things that I haue builded if they be wel builded vp I make my selfe also another trāsgressor And sith we haue alredie builded on the onlie foundation Iesus Christ and God hath alreadie blessed our building if now anie other will build thereon and turquise our building except he can bring better proofes that we build amisse and that God allowes not nor likes our building and shewe that not onelie we may more easilie and also with more beautie and profite build after another order that he wil teach vs but that we must and are bound to build on that fashion he presumeth too farre and offereth vs wrong and maye doe more hurt and hinderaunce to the building of the Church of GOD than euer for all his zeale hee shall doe good or bee able to further the same except to put it further off than alreadie it is But saie our Brethren with our faithfull endeauour wee shall not want the mightie assistance of God who will blesse our godlie labours with greater successe than we can looke for Verie true in all faithfull endeauours grounded on a good matter and proceeding by a good order GOD will blesse our godlie labours and his name bee blessed for it so he hath done notwithstanding all the stops both of our foraine enimies and of our owne brethrens domesticall impediments we haue not wanted the mightie assistaunce of God blessing our godlie labors and that with greater successe than they acknowledge or wish or we haue deserued or in these troubles wee could haue looked for So that in this behalf we may wel recomfort our selue◠with that saying of the 124. Psalme If the Lord had not bene on our side maie Israel now saie if the Lord had not beene on our side when men rose vp against vs they had swallowed vs vp quicke when their wrath was kindled against vs. And in the 127. following Except the Lord build their house the labour is in vaine that build it And since God hath thus blessed our handie workes euen beyond all that wee looked for for although wee might well looke for no lesse of the professed aduersaries of the Gospell yet who would haue looked for such vnthankfulnesse to God and such hinderance of the worke of God among our selues at our Brethrens hands the professors with vs of Christs Gospel Shal we now also looke for new deuises and with them contemne and alter all that the Lord hath alredie so mightilie blessed and looke for him also to blesse the labours of our handes in the contrarie to that we haue begun to labour and wherein we haue so prosperouslie proceeded and which God hath alreadie blessed with such mightie assistance and successe But now our Brethren supposing these thinges might bee well compassed most confidenilie they auowe and saie If God therefore will graunt that these and such like meanes may take place by the high authoritie of our dreade Soueraigne the Queenes Maiestie and continue this comfortable peace which wee inioie vnder her most gracious gouernment we dare ieopard our liues that in lesse than halfe the time that is alreadie properouslie passed of her Maiesties moste honourable and glorious raigne the necessitie of learned Pastors shall be so well supplied as we shall haue no great cause to complaine for lack of them if we may vse like diligence to continue them if not wee will spend the rest of our life in mourning expectation of the heauie vengeance of GOD which must needes fall vpon vs for this manifest contempt of his expresse commandement and neglect of increasing the glorious kingdome of our sauiour Christ. In the meane time we may boldlie saie with the Apostle Act. 20. We testifie vnto you this daie that wee are cleane from the bloud of you all for we haue not failed to shew you the whole councell of God concerning the regiment of his