God had not 2. Thes 2. 10. 11. sent you strong illusions to beleeue lies because you would not beleeue the truth it could not be that you should thus grope at noone day and still call for proofe in that which is so abundantly proued After the Popes had once fully gotten into the chaire of Apostasie the ashes of those witnesses of God whom for the testimonie of Iesus Christ you haue slaine as they are kept in store for a witnesse against you on earth so their spirits now in heauen do cry against you as the bloud of Abel against Cain Since the discouery of that Man of sinne in these latter yeares you haue found our congregations through Gods goodnesse much thicker in all nations then you would haue suffered if your Nimrods armes had bene as long as they are wont to be But what if we should onely answer you that the first of these 1600. is more in triall of truth then all the rest as that one day of the institution of Matrimonie betweene one man Math. 19. 4. and one woman ioyned together by an vnseparable knot is more to proue the integritie thereof then all the yeares succeeding wherein Polygamie and Dinorce had preuailed Would you renounce the triall of these incorrupted times and appeale to the latter wherein sundry corruptions were apparantly crept in What were this else but to shunne the light as the maner of deceiuers and euill doers is What the religion of this hundreth was nay what it ought to be for euer let the Apostolike writers witnesse and it the Religion of the Protestant congregations be the same with the religion taught beleeued and practised in that hundreth let all the latter times know that they are too young to controle it much more let Popish noueltie retire into the schooles and cloysters where it was bred Lastly all the times succeeding haue imbraced the Scriptures as the very word of God haue retained the confession of faith called the Apostles Creede as agreeable to holy Scriptures and only herein haue sought for the Canon and rule of truth The Protestant congregations holding the same faith and seruing God by the same rule haue therefore on their sides the consent of all ages from Moses to Christ from Christ to his Apostles to this day auouching the faith and seruice of God which they follow and practise and are compassed with a greater cloude of witnesses then all the Popish Canonists Summists Iesuits and Disputants shall euer be able to shew Hence I thus conclude The faith of the first hundreth recorded in the Scriptures and reteined in the ages following holding firmely the Scriptures and the Apostles Creed is the true faith and they so beleeuing and holding the true Church The faith of the Protestant congregations is the same Therefore the faith of the Protestant congregations is the true faith and they the true faith and they the true Church PAPIST They say they haue beene though innisible and they know not where This answer cannot serue nor yeeld any content to a soule desirous of truth For what man carefull of saluation would leaue a Church alwayes visible and knowne as ours hath beene and follow a congregation the beginning whereof is yet fresh in memorie and was neuer heard of before for many ages together as themselues cannot deny PROTESTANT As your religion consists wholly of errors so you must needs defend it by lies and that against your owne knowledge if at least you haue informed your selfe of the truth of that we say Were not Christ and his Apostles visible were not the godly Bishops and Fathers of the Primitiue Church visible say we not that our religion is the same that Christ and his Apostles taught that the true Church of God succeeding in all ages did professe and practise according to the Scriptures whereas on the other side wherein soeuer you differ from vs you differ from the doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and haue new forbished erroneous and hereticall opinions and build vpon mens imperfections and frailties and those neither agreeing with the Scriptures nor with the analogie of that faith which themselues mainteined taught Why then shame you not to affirme that we know not where the witnesses teachers of our religion haue bin for so your meaning must be True it is that against the long continued visibility of your inglorious Synagogue wherby you beare the ignorant in hand that yours is the true Church We answer truely and proue it by instance of the times of Elias and of our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles that the synagogue of Satan is oftentimes and for long time more visible then the Church of God and of Christ and that the Church of Christ is like the Moone as In Psal 10. Augustine Augustine compares it which sometime giues no light at all This our answer may giue content to euery soule that is desirous of truth especially such as will take the paines to search the Scriptures whether the things we say be so or no. As for that your bad asseueration that your Church hath beene alwaies visible and that the beginning of ours is yet in fresh memorie And was neuer heard of before in many ages together as our selues you say cannot deuie it is euen as true as the rest of your religion Vnfold vs the antiquity of that capitall and fundamentall point of your religion Subesse Extran com de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam Romano pontifici est de necessitate salutis This is your principle of principles and yet as it is contrarie to all records of Scripture wherin there are no footsteps of any such dependance so is it controlled by the cleare testimony of all antiquitie by the primitiue state and constitution of the churches Concil Afric cap. 92. 101. 105. Concil Niceu Can. 6. Epist lib. 6. epist 30. li. 4. epist 38. in all the Christian world and by the iudicious sentence of Gregorie the first a Bishop of Rome And can we not deny that the beginning of our congregation is yet in fresh memorie c. God open the eyes of the blind to see your cunning and sophisticall equiuocation which is now become the idiome and proper language of poperie True it is indeede that the recouery of that libertie which by Gods mercy our Churches now enioy since they came out of the spirituall Babylon which is the Romish Synagogue may be fetched out of late memorie But is this the question betweene vs Or rather whether the beginning of that religion which giues the beeing to our churches and whereby they are distinguished from your Antichristian synagogue be yet in fresh memorie If Christ and his Apostles with their doctrine and faith be but of yesterday then so is ours But if theirs be from the beginning our religion being the same beginneth not one day or howre later then theirs did Lastly be it that the pompous and vainglorie of your synagogue be
elder then this renewed face of our churches will that proue any aduantage for you Was not the Apostasie of Israel elder then the protestation of Elias against 1. King 18. them much more then the returne of many out of Israel in the dayes of Hezekiah Was not the Pharisaicall synagogue 2. Chron. 30. before the preaching of Christ before the church which he gathered by his preaching Boast not therefore of what standing your Antichristian tyranny is but tell vs if you can of what truth your religion is Truth we graunt you is most ancient but error also is often very ancient and is called by Angustine Vetustissima falsit as most ancient falshood and Epist 166. when the truth after a long time of suppression commeth to the light againe in the eyes of them that iudge by the outward appearance error seemeth elder then the truth Wherfore let vs clime aboue these middle antiquities which may be common both to truth and error and let vs come to the eldest and most ancient times of the Church and there behold the true and vndisguised face of the auncientest and truest Church Let vs search the Scriptures which onely conteine the most infallible description of the true Church If you shun this light say it is because there is no truth in Ioh. 3. 19. 20. 21. you yea because your workes are euill and you feare to come to the light least it should be manifest that you walke in the truth PAPIST Secondlie this is to make your cursed Synagogue of the Iewes that crucified the Some of God and wickedlie cried out His bloud be vpon vs and our children for more glorious then Christs Church for which he shed his bloud and praied so inst antlie to his father for as they now be in manie parts of the world so can they shew where they haue remained preached their religion for all these 1600 yeares and to say that Christs Church is inferior to the Iewish Synagogue is so blasphemous as Christian eares should not endure to heare PROTESANT Did Christ shed his bloud to make his Church glorious and eminent in worldly prosperity like to the strumpet of Rome that sittes vpon many waters and hath rule ouer many Reuel 17. 1. people yea ouer Kings and princes No no his kingdome is not of this world By many tribulations must the Ioh. 18. 36. Act. 14. 22. Rom. 8. 17. Ioh. 16. 33. 2. Tim. 2. 12. Hebr. 12. 8. Church of Christ enter into the kingdome of heauen It must bee comforted to his suffering that it may be comforted to his glory If it suffer with him it shall raigne with him In the worlde it shall haue trouble but in him only peace All that are not pertakers of chastismens are bastards and not sonnes Againe did Christ by his instant prayer to his Father request that his Church might treade on the necks of Emrours ride on a stately sâ—eed and Kings to hold the stirrop and going by on foot to lead the Popes horse by the bridle Or that they might â—â—â—eample patrimonies large seigniories generall command ouer king and key sar yea power of life and death ouer euery creature and to translate kingdomes and to turne the world vpside-downe at their pleasure Where is this prayer contained why had not Christ himselfe nor any of his Apostles the benefite of it why was the primitiue church so washed by horrible persecutions Christ neuer made any such prayer he prayed that his Church might be preserued not altogether from but in Iohn 17. 15 temptations not that the worldly powers might not annoy the bodies of his Saints but that their soules might be kept from euill not that they might haue their heauen in this world but that they might bee with him where he is and see his Vers 24 glory Againe was Christ inferior to the Iewes when they crucified him or Stephen when they stoned him to death or Iames when Herod cut off his head or Peter when he bound him in prison what saith the scripture For thy sake Acts. 7. 12 we are killed all the day long and we are counted as sheepe for the slaughter Neuerthelesse in all these things we are more then Psal 44. 23. Rom. 8. 36. 37 conquerors through him that loued vs. Surely by Romish Logicke and and Romish diuinitie farre more happy and glorious was the condition of Pilat the priestes and accursed Iewes that cried Crucifie him crucifie him then of poore Christ O you that are bewitched and inchanted by these Luk. 23. 21. Baby lonish charmes will you be led by such guides who know not the beginnings of Christian religion If any will be my Disciple let him take vp his crosse and follow me will you Math. 16. 24 thinke that such can guide you to heauen whose God is the world whose glory is shame which minde earthly things With them no outward prosperity no Church no earthly kingdome no Church no scarlet coloured beast Phil. 3. 19. no triple crowned Pope no hatted Cardinals no mirred Bishops no Church But see the singular boldnesse of this popish proctor ioyned with singular folly The cursed Iewes can bring as far fetcht antiquicy to proue their Synagoue to bee the true Church as the Papists can for theirs If such antiquity can make you Papists why may it not as well make you Iewes This forcible Reasoner prescribeth 1600 yeares for the Papacie not a yeare or a day lesse doth hee allowe to the Iewish Synagogue from whence I thus reason That which by Popish confession belongs as well to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists that can neuer proue the Popish Synagogne to be the Catholique and true Church Antiquitie of 1600 yeares belongs as much to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists as this plaine Reasoner confesseth Therefore antiquitie of 1600 yeares can neuer proue the Popish Synagogue to be the catholike and true Church PAPIST That our Church hath continued all this while is as certaine for to omit other Prouinces and Kingdomes where it hath beene openlie knowen and not to speake howe wee can shew the continuall succession of Bisops in diuerse places of Christendom as Rheimes Padua Leigh and from the Apostles times to these our daies we can heere in our country proue the continuance of our religion for these 1600 yeares euen from the time of Saint Gregorie the great Pope of Rome who sent hither Saint Austen that conuerted vs Englishmen froÌ„ Paganisme and Idolatry to the faith of Christ as our owne histories teach and from Saint Gregorie we can ascend by the current streame of Popes his predecessors to Saint Peter and Christ himselfe For that it was our Catholike religion which was then brought in by Saint Austen no doubt caÌ„ be made for our chronicles say so much the ruines of so many ancieÌ„t Abbies latelie suppressed do aboundantly testifie the same none of reason or reading will denie it
seeke a vision of the Prophets then they shall find that by the iust iudgment of Ezek. 7. ver 6 God the law shal perish from the Priest and councel froÌ„ the Ancient Which at this day they all find who feed vpon the lying vanities of Popish visions being deluded by the painted vizard of the Church which you haue put vpon your faces Wherefore if you could proue your Church the true Church which you can neuer do yet should you stil come to short of prouing that you stand so much in need of that your Church cannot erre and therefore Praying to Saints Purgatorie Pardons c. must be beleeued because your Church teacheth them God grant that your seduced Clients Iere. 2. 13. may leaue these broken pits that will hold no water and haue recourse to the fountaine of liuing waters the holy scripture thereby to trie euerie spirit whether it be of God or no and not blindly beleeue euery spirit that saith Iohn 4. 1. it is of God Yea but say you If the Church maie erre in faith then might wee aswell be damned being members of the true Church as of the false that not for a wicked life but for a wrong faith which cannot be First you shewe of what force all your proofes are that you are faine so shamelesly to beg that without any proofe which all men know to be most false for is it so strange to you that a meÌ„ber of a true visible church may be daÌ„ned euen for matter of wrong beliefe Are al the members of euery true visible Churhc true and proper members of the mysticall body of Christ Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians Behold I Paul say vnto euerie men that is circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing yee are abolished from Christ whosoeuer are iustified by the law yee are fallen from grace And yet they to whom he spake were members of a true visible Church Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong beliefe Secondly albiet the true visible Churches may erre daÌ„nably as the church of the Iewes in condemning Christ the Arrians in denying his eternall Godhead yet the true Catholike Church which is the body of Christ cannot erre damnably nor any true member thereof and yet euery member of the militant Church may erre but not damnably for euery error is not damnable no not in matter of faith some build vpon the foundation Timber hay and stuble 1 Cor. 3. 12. c. so long as they build vpon the foundation they themselues shall be saued but shall suffer losse of their worke by the fiery triall of Gods word Confessing therefore the infirmity and ignorance euen of the true members of the true Catholike Church in this flesh which is such no one of them can haue immunity from error yet it will not followe that any true member of the Catholike Church can be damned and yet he may beleeue amisse in some points of faith God open the eies of the blinde that they may discerne your dangerous and damnable sleight You would haue all your disciples hold themselues contented only with the Coliars faith to beleeueth as the Church beleeueth althogh they know not what the Church beleeueth To the intent you may bewitch them this is your sorcerie you tell them the Church cannot erre meaning your Romish church therfore they may securly beleeue whatsoeuer you bid theÌ„ so doing shall vndoubtedly be saued A coÌ„pendious Religion promising vnto men saluation without taking any paines to know the truth of God to search the scriptures to trie the spirits and to discerne of the true faith But what saith the scripture He that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued he that beleeueth not shall be damned And what must Mark 16. 16. they beleeue that shall be saued That which the Apostles teach what must the Apostles teach All that Christ commanded Then must euery beleeuer discerne the truth of his Matth. 28. 20. faith by the vndoubted commandement of Christ that he may haue vndoubted comfort of his owne saluation Men will not take money for currant before they haue tried it by touch and weight and will any be so desperatly foolish as to beleeue euery spirit and receiue euery doctrine not trying by the touch of scriptures and the weights of Gods sanctuarie whether it be of God or no Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar ground of truth And this ought to be a great comfort to all vnâ—earned Catholikes It ought so indeede and to the learned too that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church and there onely the sheepe of God may heare the voice of their Shepheard Howbeit the vnlearned Catholiks shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the supposed Church of Rome or thinke that truth is pinned vpon any Iohn 10. 27. one churches sleeue or is indefinitly committed to the whole Church without submission to the trial of scriptures What is truth the scriptures onely shew where that truth is preserued and taught there is the true Church For the Church is the pillar ground of truth By the scriptures therfore all true Catholikes must learn to know the true church and receiue the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministrie of the church but not vpon the bare and onely cred it of the church For to omit Theophilact who interpreteth truth in this place as opposit to Iewish shadows which sense may very well be followed and so you haue no shew of helpe here Chrysostome vpon the place giueth this sense Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationemâ— quippe verit as Ecclesiae columna firmaâ—entum est This is that which keepeth faith and preaching for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church Where you see the church ministerially keepeth faith and preacheth the word as the Pyramis in Paris did keepe the memorie of your Iesuitical parricide but in a nother sense the truth by Chrysostoms iudgmeÌ„t is the pillar and firmament of the Church And Dyonisius Carthusianus Estque columna firmamentum verit atis id est verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat c. The pillar and ground of truth saith he that is it doth stroÌ„gly beare the truth of the gospel note the truth of the Gospel which the church hath receiued not any truth inueÌ„ted or taught by the church without or beside the Gospell Therefore out of this place we thus conclude against you The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth that is beareth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth for it beareth not the â—ruth before men by the preaching of the Gospell but her â—â—ue superstitions Inuentions besides the Gospell and contrary to the Gospell at praier to Saints Purgatory
Pardons Real presence Eare-shrift c. Therefore the Church of Rome is not the church of God The second Reason PAPIST That is the true faith and religion of Christ which the ancient and learned Fathers tanght maintained in the floursshing time of the Primitiue Church that is within the first 600 yeares next after Christ and this is so true that our Aduersaries themselues confesse it For M. Iewell sometime of Sarisbury cried out in this maner O Gregory ô Leo ô Augustine ô Ambrose c if we be deceiued you haue deceiued vs. The Church of England In his chaleng Sermon at Paules crosse also continueth their memorie in euerie Kalender as it doth of the blessed Apostles which fauour no question it would not afford them if it iudged them Heretikes or false teachers And as no Protestant I thinke dare say that they bee damned in hell for hereticall or false doctrine So most sure I am that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation upon them that liued so neere Christ then vpon such as liue now and be partiall in their owne cause PROTESTANT The floure of your reasons is now gone and indeede a floure for the bright beames of truth shining froÌ„ the Sunne of righteousnesse in the firmament of his word hath dimmed the grace and defaced the beautie of this your vaine best reason The second reason comming to rescue the former at vnawares thinking to smite his enemie wounded his fellowe to the heart For if the long continued pompe of your supposed Church be proofe enough that yours for sooth is the true Church and if the priuiledge of the true church which you chalenge to yours be that it cannot erre and consequently we are to beleeue what your Church teacheth what needed you then to haue abated this last 1000 yeares and to appeale to the flourishing time of the Primitiue church within the first 600 years Surely this is a plaine coÌ„fession against your selues that your long coÌ„tinued Church comes much short in dignity credit and authority of those 600 yeares Else why do you not rest contented with your owne testimony as being the preseÌ„t Oracle of the church but are faine to borrowe proofe of the Primitiue Church considering that if long continuance be the matter though your persons be yonger and your age but of yesterday yet by the addition of so many yeares your Church hath a grauer head and surely more wrinckles in her face then in those former times she had If therefore the ancienter testimonies do more stroÌ„gly proue the truth then is theremore certain trial of truth to be fetcht froÌ„ the early beginnings of the church then froÌ„ the long continued doating age as plainly appeareth of your Church And surely so did the Fathers within those 600 yeares they prooued their doctrines and maintained euery truth not by the face of long time but by the authority of the first times wherein Christ and his Apostles vndoubtedly taught the truth and by vndoubted records of diuine inspiration that is the holie scriptures commended the same to all posterity Augustine Epist 19. ad Hieron Ego solis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur c. I haue learned to yeeld only to those books of scripture which are now called Canonical that feare heuer that I firmely beleeue no author of theÌ„ in writing to haue coÌ„mitted anie error others I so reade that how holie or learned soeuer they be I do not therefore thinke a matter to bee true because they so thought but because they were able to perswade me either by those canonical authors or by probable reason that it swarneth not from truth And therefore ad Vincentium Donatist Epist 48. Nâ—lâ— contra diuina testimonia c. Haue no will or desire out of the writings of Bishops togather cauils against the diuine testimonies first because this kind of writings is distinguished from the cannon c. But let vs see your reason That is the true faith which the ancient and learned Fathers taught in the first 600 yeares But they were of our religion and not of the Protestants Therefore ours is the true faith and not the Protestants First is your Proposition vniuersall or indefinite If you say The ancient and learned Fathers taught the true faith in all points necessarie to saluation we will not sticke with you but if you say that withall they taught nothing swaruing from the true faith neither can we yeeld it vnto you neither do the Fathers themselues yeeld it one to another neither doth any one of them presume to chalenge so much to him self neither wil your selues I am sure generally also affirme You know the contrary of Tertullian Cyprian and Origene Augustine did not in all things accord with Ierome nor allow whatsoeuer himselfe had written and these things are not vnknowne to you nor vnconfessed by you Wherefore if you will haue your proposition vniuersally taken it is false that whatsoeuer the Fathers taught is the true faith If indefinitly then will it fall out to be onely particular of some things suppose the most things that the ancient learned Fathers taught that they agreed with the true faith So that if you could proue that your Popish faith consisting in the points of your nouelties vnknowne to Christ and his Apostles and of your Apostafie from the true faith did in some points agree with some opinions of the learned Fathers yet would it not follow that yours is the true faith vnlesse you could manifestly proue that the Fathers therein held the true faith For your Popish faith partly hath an apish imitation of some outworne rites of ancient times as Vnctions Exorcismes c. partly carcheth hold of some of their errors as prayer for the dead partly proceedeth on boldly to affirme of those things whereof they spake doubtfully as Purgatory partly peruerteth and abuseth their words against their meanings sometime taking that literally which they meant tropically as Sacrifice Oblation Priest Altar c. sometime wresting their words from that good sense which they beare by proportion of their writings to that bad and absurd sense which since you haue violently drawne them to as Merit Poenitentiam agere Confession Satisfaction c. Contrariwise the Protestants religion is in substance the same which the ancient learned Fathers taught wherein the Protestants therefore follow them because they haue followed the Scriptures as hath bene often mainteined proued and demonstrated to your stopped eares and hardened hearts Briefly the Proposition vniuersally vnderstood is false The Assumption vniuersally vnderstood of all their faith and religion is false of your Popish faith Therefore the conclusion followes not But let vs see how strongly or rather straungely you proue your Proposition First you say it is so true that your aduersaries confesse it for M. Iewell sometime of Sarisburie c. That godly and learned Bishop was confident that you could not bring any one sufficient sentence out of
that course in trying out the true meaning of the scriptures Why do you Trid. Concil Sess 4. Dec. 2. without all conference of places tie all men to such a sense onely as the holy mother Church that is your Popish Church holdeth to whom you say it belongeth to iudge of Trid. Concil ibidem the true sence of scriptures or whereupon all the Fathers consent in one which you know to be imposible to finde Why do you exclude the originall Bibles and bind all men in expositions to your vulgare Latine as authenticall and vpon no pretence to be refused Whatsoeuer you boast your owne coÌ„sciences tell you that conference of places and recourse to the fountaines will do your cause more harme then good And heere I wish the reader to obserue how sly lie you insinuate that in conference of places recourse to the fountaines or any other help that we vse there is onely probility and therfore these meanes will not serue there is no rest till you come to that which you call Gods Church in general councels which in conclusion shall be all laied in the Popes lap of which pierlesse meanes to know the vndoubted sense of scripture it is maruaile that Augustine in his bookes De Doctrina Christiana haÌ„dling that point at large forgatto speak specially if as you pretend this be the onely sure way that worthy Father spent his time belike in those meanes that haue onely a probability in them as the Phrase of scripture the circumstances of places comparison with other places analogie of faith c. And neuer thought of that which by your saying is worth all the rest As you haue onely boasted of conference of places and recourse to the fountaines so do you also of the consent of auncient Fathers whereunto your selues will not be bound For when Cardinal Caietane as Andradius Dcfens fid .. Trid. lib. 2. reporteth professeth that sometimes he will inteprete the scriptures against the straeme of the Doctors and exhorteth the readers to trie his writings not by other mens preiudice but by context of scripture some accused him for it as a fautor of the Lutherans But Andradius defendes him and giues his reasons First because the Fathers in infinit places specially of the old testamet leauing the literall sense which he confesseth doth onely serue to proue doctrine runne vpon other senses Heere a man may freely depart from their exposition and search for the literall sense Secondly because the Fathers very ofteÌ„ seeking for the true sense of the scriptures haue giuen senses very diuerse and vnlike one to another which if it be true when will you finde the consent of the Fathers about the sense of Scripture Therefore Andraduis concludes that no man is bound to their expositions but is at free libertie forsaking them all to trie what he can do by Gods help and to find out another new sense vnlike to the ancient Fathers expositions Be not offended with him he doth you more seruice then you are ware of For now you shal be at liberty to put vpon the scripture what sense you will though it be against the streame of the Fathers Thus you followe the coonsent of the ancient Fathers to whose sleeue when it comes to the iumpe you will not be pinned Andradius to serue your turne can alleage Augustines iudgment Epist 3. ad Fortunat. alleaged Dist 9. Can. Neque Nobis enim licebit c. For it shall bee lawfull for vs sauing the honorable respect which is due to the holy Fathers to mislike and reiect something in their writings if peraduenture we find that they haue otherwise iudged then the truth will beare by Gods help vnderstood either of others or of our selues Whereunto we will also adde what the same Augustine saith De vnitat Eccles cap. 10. Nemo mihi dicat c. Let no man say to me Or what saied Donatus to me or what saith Parmenianus or Pontius or anie of them for xe may not consent no not to Catholike Bishops if perhaps they be any where deceiued So that they haue held any opinioÌ„ against the Canonical scriptures May not these testimonies of Augustine as wel be alleaged held good on our part as on yours To conclude in this point against your appeale to Scriptures you vsually obiect that Heretikes alleage scriptures It is true and Diuels too but corrupted and Christ alleageth them against the Diuel and bids all men search them But do not heretickes also alleage the Fathers as boldly as you that call your selues Catholikes you cannot be ignorant of the mouthie clamor of Dioscorus the Euty chian hereticke in the Councell of Chalcedon I haue the testimonie Concil Chalced. Act. 1. of the auncient Fathers Athanasius Gregorie and Cyril in manie places I am cast out with the Fathers I defend the Fathers opinions I transgresse not in anie thing c. If we may not build vpon Scriptures because heretikes alleage them much lesse may we vpon Fathers which heretikes also alleage Your next meane is The common practice of Gods Church Indeede this rule will serue your turne well For what meane you by Gods Church Forsooth the Popish church So then no interpretation of Scripture may bee good that crosseth any practice of the Popish church so you shall bee sure to keepe all whole You should in wisedom haue concealed this as a mysterie among your selues For what is it else but a conspiracie that whatsoeuer the Scripture saith in words it must at no hand bee vnderstoode to be against Popish practise By this tyrannie your Popes haue gotten the start fall the world in so much that though he runne Dist â—0 Si Papa to hell himselfe and draw innumerable soules with him yet no mortall man may presume to reprooue him because he is to iudge all and none to iudge him Follow him to hell you that will we will follow our Lord Iesus as his word leadeth vs. For him we knowe to be the way the truth and the life Thus notably you proue that you haue the true sense of the Scriptures and therefore are the true Church Yours is the true sense because it is confirmed by your owne practise And why so Forsooth you say so What is this else but aske my fellow if I be a theefe First you set vp a wicked practise then you peruert the Scriptures to maintaine it and afterward prooue your interpretation of Scriptures by your practise Your practise is good Why the Scripture as you vnderstand it is for your practise And why must the Scripture be so vnderstoode because your practise so requires First you get both swords into your hands then you prooue it by Ecce due gladij behold heere two swords First Extrau cont de maior obed cap. Vnam sanctam you get aboue Emperours and Kings then you prooue it by Inprincipio non in principijs in the beginning not in the beginnings Such is your practise and such
time and is far from the largenesse of the whole church of Christ Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth Let vs also bring this reason into forme The pillar and ground of truth cannot erre The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church cannot erre First what is this to generall Councels which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth but at the best onely some part of it that church is the house of the liuing God which extends it selfe more largely both in regard of persons and times then to the number assembled in some generall councels in some times of the church Whereby it commeth to passe that as before hath beene noted out of Augustine generall councels haue corrected prouinciall and the later generall councels haue corrected the former Wherefore some generall councell or councels may erre and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth Secondly the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth as hath bene shewed because the Oracles of God are committed vnto it which the church keepeth faithfully to the worlds end By which as by an vndoubted marke the true Church is knowne from the false For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures neither doth vphold and beare vp the truth by the preaching of the Gospell as is manifestly seene in the Apostaticall church of Rome Contrariwise the true church conserueth the records of Gods truth and preacheth the doctrine of the holy Scripture for the gathering of the Saints and the edifying Ephes 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7. of it selfe Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should preserue knowledge and at whose mouth they should inquire the law may sometimes faile in the knowledge and shewing of the law So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth to wit of that truth which is necessarie to saluation in the true knowledge and custodie whereof the true Church shall neuer deceiue nor be deceiued The Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ at the time of his ascention were the onely true visible church of Christ who vndoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 1. Tim. 6. 3. truth holding fast the foundation which is Iesus Christ and keeping the wholesome word which is according to godlinesse Act. 1. 6 yet did they erre in the matter of restoring the kingdome to Israel Thirdly as before hath bene shewed out of Chrysostome The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church For as Augustine August 〈◊〉 166. faith to the Donatists In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ In the Scriptures vve haue learned the Church Vnderstanding therefore pillar ground or firmament for the strength stay or foundation the truth is the strength stay and foundation of the church which is built vpon the foundation of the Eph. 2. 20. Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the church is the pillar and ground of truth as Galath 29. Cephas lamet and Iohn were counted to bee pillars because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly vpheld Fundatores Ecclesiae erant sustentatores They were founders of the Church and vpholders as Haymâ— noteth out of Augustine So the Church layeth the foundation of truth and beareth vp the truth by confessing and preaching Inqua solu as Primasius noteth nunc veritas stat firmata que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis that is In vvhich alone the truth novv standeth grounded and which alone beareth vp the vvhole building of truth Not that the church is as Ladie ouer the truth but as an handmaide to the truth Therefore as Peter being a pillar was yet subiect to error so the church is not free from all error although it be the pillar and ground of truth The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth which the true church teacheth according to the Scriptures haue the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Papists that build vpon variable and vncertaine definitions of men not examining them by the infallible and cleere doctrine of the Scriptures PAPIST Fiftly S. Peter saith that no prophecie of Scripture is made by 2. Pet. 1. 20. priuate interpretation Priuate interpretation 〈◊〉 haue none seeing vve interpret them according to that sense vvhich consent of antiquitie and the authoritie of Gods Church deliuereth and the Protestants haue none but priuate seeing their doctrine is that euerie one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures vvhat others do teach and so to admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not to the vvord of God vvhich if it be not priuate interpretation there can be none sound in the world For vvhat can be more priuate then for euerie priuate vnlearned artificer to make himselfe iudge ouer all and to sentence this mans doctrine as agreeable to Gods vvord and to reiect the common opinion of manie more yea though of ancient Fathers and generall Councels as contrarie to sacred Scripture and yet this is common amongst our aduersaries as daily experience informeth vs. PROTESTANT Priuate interpretation in this place of Peter is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit as in the wordes plainely appeareth and not one mans interpretations to manie mens as you pretend For all mens interpretation if it be humane comming of their owne sense and not taught by the Spirit is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their owne which you call priuate The gift of interpretation as other spirituall gists is of the spirit 1. Cor 13. 10. Luke 24. 45. of God who openeth the hearts of men to vnderstand the scriptures As he opened the heart of Lydia For otherwise as the Act. 1â— 14. veile remaining vpon the hearts of the Iewes they could not see into the end of the law but vvhen the vâ—â—le vv is taken away 2. Cor. 3. 16. from their hearts then by a right vnderstanding of the Scriptures they were conuerred vnto Christ So while the vaile of carnall wisedome which is foolishnesse vvith God is 1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24. vpon the hearts of men they cannot discerne the wisedome of God reuealed in the Scriptures For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned and onely the Ioh. 6. 45. spirituall man discerneth all things By this spirit are all that beleeue taught of God and euerie man that hath heard and learned of the Father commeth vnto Christ This spirit by the Act. 8. ministerie of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could giue him the spirit of discerning Neque enim saith Augustine De Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. aliquis discipuloruns eâ—as dedit spiritum Sanctum For none of his disciples gaue the holy Ghost Neither
Originals and binde to a corrupt translation as Authonâ—â—cal You suffer not the Scriptures to be vulgarly translated and read Thus you haue the Scriptures as in a prison but as you should haue them to make them common to all men by reading preaching and teaching you haue them not The interpretation of Scriptures you haue such as may stand with your Popish practise which is the priuie rule of your interpretation and such as it pleaseth the Pope to prescribe you But true interpretation of Scripture according to the plainer principles thereof and the rule of faith which Augustine so much commendeth you neither haue nor wil hade nor suffer others to haue if you may let it and so your interpretation is priuate as either being the Popes or proceeding from your owne faction addicted to your receiued practise but ours is the interpretation of the Spirit of God testified by himselfe in the Scriptures inspiried by him as by the Scriptures and the rule of faith we prooue and therefore blasphemously by you called priuate Seeing therefore the visibility of your Church is in those things which may be seen partly among the heathen partly in a false Church which the longer it continueth the worse You haue but some shew of the Fathers on your side when indeede they are against you and so haue not the antiquity of truth but of error you neither haue the Scriptures as you should haue them for your selues and others nor their true sense and interpretation but onely of your owne making your Popish faith though it be olde in it selfe yet in respect of the daies of our Fathers our Sauiour Christ the Apostles and Prophets the daies thereof haue been but few and euill and therefore it is not the olde Catholike Apostolike faith whatsoeuer this false and forcelesse Reasoner hath sayed PAPIST A short Addition Beleeue assuredly and holde for certaine that no Heretike and Schismatike that vniteth not himselfe to the Catholike Church againe how great almes so-euer hee giue yea or shed his bloud for Christes name can possibly be saued For manie heretikes by the cloake of Christes cause deceiuing the simple suffer much but where no true faith is there is no iustice because the iust liueth by faith so it is also of Schismatikes because where charitie is not no iustice can be there which of they had they would neuer plucke in peeces the bodie of Christ which is the Church A Sentence of S. Austin worthie to be noted of such as thinke that men which liue vertuouslie may goe to heauen though they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor be members of his true Church For as most certaine it is that none which beleeue not all the articles of the Catholike faith can be saued though to the eies of the world be liue or die neuer so well for without faith it is as Paul saith vnpossible to please God And S. Athanasius telleth vs that whosoeuer will be saued before all things it is necessarie that he holde the Catholike faith which faith without euerie one shall keepe whole and inviolate without doubt he shall perish for euer so no lesse certaine it is that although we beleeue neuer so well yet if we liue not according to that faith and so abstaine from communicating with heretiques in their seruice and Sacraments we cannot be saued For hee that shall denie Christ before men Christ also will denie him before his Father in heauen as himselfe saith And if we may without sinne temporize and frame our conscience according to the law when shall we take vp our Crosse and follow Crist as himselfe willeth vs And vvhat meant the blessed Apostles and so manie 1000. of Martyrs to shed their bloud for Christ of an inward and secret faith might haue brought them to heauen and they might outwardlie haue yeelded to Princes lawes and keepe their conscience to themselues This doctrine Christes seruants know not it is deuised only for the colde comfort of such as loue this vvorld too much and feare persecution But let such thinke of this saying of our Sauiour Feare ye not them that kill the body and are not able to kill the soule but rather feare him that can destroy both body soule into hel and let them imitate noble Eleazarus Mart. 2. 28. who rather made choise of cruell death then to dissemble in the cause of religion and do that with the scandal of others which of it selfe was no sinne at all PROTESTANT Augustines Sentence De fide and Pet. Diac. cap. 39. is oneâ—â— thus much Formissimè tene nullatenus dubites quemlibet hareticum siue schismaticum in nomine patris filij spiritus sancti baptizatum si ecclesiae Catholicae non fuerit aggregatus quantascunque eleemosinas fecerit si pro Christi nomine sanguinem fuderit nullatenus posse saluari that is Firmly beleeue by no meanes doubt that euery heretike or schismatike being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost how great almes soeuer he do yea though hee shed his bloud for Christs name yet if he be not gathered to the Catholike Church by no meanes can be saued This sentence though not word for word yet in effect you rehearse but you ad therunto more words whereof Augustine in that place hath neuer a one yet in the end conclude a sentence of S Austen as if all that goeth before were his sentence in that chapter It seemeth therefore that you read not Augustines words your selfe but borrowed them some where without discerning where Augustines words ended The rest is a truth but not true that Augustine there hath such a sentence what would you now inferre out of this sentence of Augustine First that men though they liue neuer so vertuously yet if they beleeue not the Catholike faith nor bee members of his true Church cannot be saued Secondly that if men beleeue neuer so well yet if they liue not according to the faith and so absteine from communicating with heretiks in their seruice and sacraments they cannot be saued and so proceede on to condemne those that outwardly haue yeelded to Princes Lawes and keepe their consciences to themselues All which may with no gaine to you be yeelded it the chiefe termes be well vnderstood to witte Catholike Church Catholike Faith and Heretikes or Schismatikes For if the Popish Church be not the Catholike Church nor the Popish Faith the Catholike Faith nor they Heretikes or Schismatikes that stand in opposition to Poperie or do depart from Popish communion then what gaine you by this whole addition But it is a world to see into what a maze you haue ledde the poore sheep of your flocke that no sooner they heare Catholike Church or Catholike Faith but by and by they thinke of Popish Church and Popish Faith betweene which there is no lesse difference then betweene light and darknes And againe when they heare of Herâ—tikes they presently
before in the daies of Helkias the Priest But chuse you whether you will cease your wrangling about mens names or not and be it knowen to you that we will search the scriptures in which alone wee beleeue to Iohn 5. 39. haue eternall life and which only beare vnto vs infallible witnes of Christ and of all true Religion necessarie to saluation How beit were your succession any thing worth to the finding out of truth when or how shall it be agreed whether Liuus or Clemens succeeded Peter whether Cletus and Anacletus be one man or if they be two which is the first or which must be put out of the succession or whether Clemens be before them or either of them for these vncertainties are in the highest roundes of this your ladder of succession Tell vs whether Pope Ioaue haue not made a foule cracke in your succession or what we shall make of your 30. Schismes whereof the twentie ninth continued the space of 50 yeares together first with two Popes at once then with three vntil the Councell of Constance remoued them all three and set vp Martin 5. since your Church representatiue in the councel iudged against them al three may we not rightly iudge that your succesion was quite broken off and none of these 3 nor they to whom they succeeded during that Schisme were true successors of Peter How euer it be make your succession as strong as you can Except Cum successione Episcopatus With the succession of the Chaire they haue receiued Veritatis charisma certū the vndoubted Iren lib. 4. cap. 43. gift of truth we make no reckoning of it As for your Austen who you say conuerted vs Englishmen it is well knowen that this Iland had receiued the faith long before Austen was borne in the daies of Kinge Lucius and euen at that time had true religion in better order in more sincerity then Austen himself except there were any more sincerity in his doctrine then in his superstitious and vaineglorious ceremonies vpon which together with your cloysters and dennes God in his mercie hath brought the confusion of Babel as appeareth this day and shall do we trust more and more PAPIST Out of this reason maie one quicklie learne that all points of our religiō be most true as praying to Saints Purgatory Pardons the Real presence Confession of sinnes though oach one knowe not howe to defende them nor perceiue vpon what groundes they stand for seeing we haue now prooued that our Church is the true Church of Christ consequently we are to beleeue that which it teacheth because she cannot erre in matters of faith for if shee could then might we as well be damned being members of the true Church of Christ as members of the false and not for a wicked life but for a wrong beleefe which cannot be and to free vs from all such doubtes Saint Paul affirmeth that the Church is the piller and ground of truth This ought to be a great comfort to all 1 Tim. 3. 15. vnlearned Catholikes that cannot enter into the deepe misteries of Christian religion PROTESTANT No doubt you must needs proue a forcible Reasoner that out of one sophisticall Syllogisme full of equiuocation as hath beene shewed from a reason pretended of the continuance of the Church inuifible reputation as you say for the space of 1600. yeares which by your owne confession will serue the Iewish synagogue as well as your supposed Church yet as if you had stricken the matter dead presume out of hand that all is proued You haue now proued that your Church is the true Church of Christ They that will bee caried away with such proofes it skils not greatly of what Church they be They surely dote vpon the Romish harlot and follow her for blinde loue and not for reason But let vs further examine how forcibly you build vpon this sandie foundation If your Church be the true Church then all must be beleeued that she teacheth And therefore praying to Saints Purgatory Pardons c. For she cannot erre in matters of faith were not the Churches of Galathia true Churches Is not the bringing in of Circumcision to be ioyned with faith in Christ as necessary to Gal. 1. 6. saluation an error in matter of faith Did not the Galathians erre in that point in so much that the Apostle reproues them as those that had remoued to another Gospell If the members of a true church ought to beleeue all that the church teacheth them who could blame the Galathians in this point yet Paul spares not to call them foolish Againe were not the Apostles the true Church yet did they erre euen after Christs resurrection not onely before the receiuing of the holy Ghost but after also and that in matter of faith before the holy Ghost came downe they Act. 1. 6. dreamed of restoring the externall kingdome of Israel and that by Christ After they had receiued the holy Ghost Act. 10. 14. Peter iudged some meates vncleane and was doubtfull of going into the vncircumcised and eating with them vntill he was better informed by an heauenly vision Neither was this error proper to him alone and yet had he bene Pastor of Pastors and the highest Bishop in the Church from whose lippes all truth was to be receiued how could the Church haue bene free from this error for as Gregory saith Epist lib. 6. epist 34. Si vnus Episcopus vocatur vniuersalis vniuersa Ecclesiacorruit Si vnus vniuersus cadit That is If one Bishop be called vniuersall the whole Church is ruinated if that one vniuersall do fall but common to all the rest of the Apostles as appeareth both in that he was called to an account before the Apostles Act. 11. 3. and the Church for entring in vnto Cornelius and alleaging his warrant both by vision and speciall oracle satisfied them so as they now first came to discerne that God vnto the Gentiles also had graunted repentance vnto life and Vers 18. therefore held their peace and glorified God and also in that when some came from Iames he withdrew himselfe from Gal. 2. 12. the Gentiles which he would not haue done if the true Church had not as then bene vnsetled in this point of faith That which befell vnto the Apostolike church may much more befall vnto the church of Rome as the like hath done vnto many other churches and therefore it follows not because the church of Rome was once the true church that either it cannot erre or must needs continue the true church still Such braggers as you were those Rabbies that conspired against Ieremie presuming as you do that the law should not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor Ier. 18. v. 18. the word from the Prophets that is that the church could not erre but the Lord by Ezechiel tels them that build vpō that false principle that when they shall come to
any Father or Councell for the space of 600. yeares after Christ to proue any of those points named in that chalenge not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith but rather affirmeth with Augustine Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam De bono viduit cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine Rom. 1. 16. figit and if he had found either in Fathers or Councels any thing swaruing from this rule he would haue forsaken them and cleaued to the Scriptures as he hath told you in his learned Apologie We know that the Gospell of Iesus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation and that therein consisteth eternall life And as Paul warneth vs we do not heare no Gal. 1. 8. not an Angel of God though he come from heauen if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine Secondly you say the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles c. What meane you so to ouer-reach doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles for so much you would imply and must or else it comes too short of your purpose The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men and therefore doth not exempt them from erring nor their writings from errors which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer so godly or learned so long as they are written onely by a priâ—at spirit Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher much lesse as an heretike and therefore it may be doubted and denied that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers Thirdly you say No Protestant you thinke dare say that they are damned in hell No verily and yet you picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall because they built vpon the foundation which is Iesus Christ alone and making them principles of your faith and religion and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ may be damned in so doing except you repent Fourthly Most sure you say you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ theu vpon such as liue now and are partiall in their owne cause Men of reason in matters of reason may relie vpon men But men of faith in matters of saluation wil relie only vpon Christ the Author finisher and foundation of our faith the Heb. 12. 2 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life in a word the onely way the onely truth the onely life But see with what cunning you deale Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers who those Fathers were what they wrote and how they shall vnderstand them you must be their interpreters So in effect they must relie their saluation vpon you which is against your owne rule For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause Againe in this your comparison of persons vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word and seeke to cast an imputation vpon the Protestants that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them which is as far from them as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word No no we counsell the faithfull as Christ our Master doth to search the Scriptures and with the Apostle to Iohn 5. 39. build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Eph 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone Lastly God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth which out of your owne mouth beareth witnes against your selfe you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vppon them that liued neerest vnto Christ And who liued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accorde with you in the truth we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ and were his witnesses and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end theÌ„ vpon any or all that haue beene since whether they be Councels Popes Bishops or Doctors of what place holines or learning soeuer Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne the best and strongest part of your proofe which you haue set in the last place makes most against your selfe as hath bin shewed Now then let vs come to your Assumption PAPIST But as certaine it is that they were of our religion and not of the Protestants which is so euident that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof and to giue an instance Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe and was so wonderfull for learning that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of and this ancient holie and learned Father beleeued and taught them yea and the whole Church of his time aâ— we beleeue teach now If any maÌ„ make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei he shal find as much as I affirme concerning prayer to Saints reuerence to Relikes and Pilgrimage to holie places three of the most odious points as they thinke in all our religion PROTESTANT To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion and not of the Protestants you tell vs that one of them S. Augustine was so Doth this proue that all were so Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so because as you pretend he held some points of your religion as Praier to Saints reuerence to Relikes Pilgrimage to holie places praier for the dead Do these points coÌ„prehend al your religion Againe may it not
is the heauenlie sacrament which trulie representeth Christs flesh is called Christs bodie but improperlie wherefore it is called after the sort thereof but not in truth of the thing but in a signifying mysterie So as the meaning is It is called the bodie of Christ that is it signifieth And in a word because you bite so hard vpon the word Sacrifice wheresoeuer you finde it in Augustine or others let Augustine himselfe interprete what force that word hath how it is to be taken A true sacrifice saith he is euerie worke which is done that by a holie felowship we may cleaue fast to God De Ciu. Del. lib. 10. cap. 6. to wit referred to that end of good by which we maie truelie be blessed Which in the end of that chapter he applieth to the sacrament This is the sacrifice of Christians we being manie are one bodie in Christ vvhich also the Church in the sacrament of the Altar knovven to the faithfull doth frequentlie obserue Thus haue you no helpe from Augustine for your grosse opinion of carnall presence and for your Popish sacrifice and consequently by your owne forcible reason from none of the rest of the Fathers for no reason as you say can moue vsto thinke that he did in so important a matter dissent from all others of his time Now therefore out of the examination of those fewe questions let all such as be desirous of truth and salution of their soules discerne what helpe you haue from venerable antiquitie for your Popish and Romish Superstition PAPIST The third reason Sundrie points of our Religion generallie mislâ—ked by our adnâ—rsartes befor all that true according to their owne principles and consequentlie agreeable to sacred Scripture this though it seeme strange yet is iâ— thus plainlie proued In their communion booke authorised by act of Parliament we finde prescribed hovv the sicke person ought to make a speciall confession of his sins to the In the visitation of the sicke special confession Priest and it vvill not helpe them to saie that they are not bound to confesse al thir sins but such only as do trouble their coÌ„science for vvhat if all that come to minde do trouble them as vve thinke all should seing all according to their doctrine be mortall and damnable And besides gladlie vvould I knovv that text of Scripture vvhich commandeth the confession of some sinnes and not of all let them name the place Secondlie vve find there also prescribed how after confession the Priest must absolue him in this maner Our Lord Iesus Christ c. and by his authoritie committed to Absolution from sinnes me I absolue thee from all thy sinnes In the name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost What vvords for the Priests absolution can be wished more plaine being the same in English vvhich in Latine be vsed in the Catholike Church PROTESTANT No doubt you were put to your shifts when out of ProtestaÌ„t principles you would take in hand to proue the truth of Popish religion which either you do to spende some time in idle talke to no purpose or else you must needes ascribe the credit of truth to Protestant principles for thus your reason must be framed VVhatsoeuer agreeth vvith the Protestant principles is true Sundry points of Popâ—sh religion agree vvith Protestant principles Therefore sundrâ—e points of Popish religion are true We thanke you for yeelding true witnes to the Protestant religion and yet we thanke you not much for sure it was against your will and was onely vpon some hope to countenance Poperie by the meanes Againe see another reason of your owne making for the truth of Protestant religion Sundrie points of our religion are true according to the ProtestaÌ„t principles and consequently agreeable to sacred scripture Bring your owne reason into forme will it not be this VVhatsoeuer is true according to Protestant principles is agreeable to sacred scriptures Sundrie points of Poperie are true according to Protestant principles Therefore they are agreeable to sacred scriptures We thanke you the second time for confessing so cleerly that the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scriptures And in kindnesse towards you for your double testimony so frankly affourded for the truth of Protestant religion wee are bounde to yeelde thus much vnto you that if any point of Poperie be true according to the principles of our religion then surely it is agreeable to sacred scriptures For surely all the principles of Protestant religion are agreeable to sacred scripture as very ingeniously you haue confessed and I hope will not reuoke But indeede strange it were as out of a faint heart you confesse that any point of Popery should be true according to Protestant principles and therefore doubtles you are out of hope to proue any point of Poperie true by that meanes Let vs see then what be the points Our Communion booke vvould haue the sicke person visited to make a speciall confession of he feele his conscience troubled vvith any vveightie matter and vvhen he hath so done vvilleth the Priest to absolue him by the authoriâ—e of Christ What of all this Is this popish Eareshrift the booke saith a speciall not an auricular confession Secondly doth the booke set the sicke mans conscience vpon the rack to reueale to the Priest all his sinnes by number with the time place and manner as without which he cannot be saued you finde no such matter there onely the Church giues him aduise for the ease of his conscience to vnburthen himselfe by confession of those sinnes which at that time trouble his conscience Thirdly if no sinne at that time trouble his conscience he is not willed to make any confession and if any sinne hath troubled his conscience in former time if by confessing the same to any faithfull Christian brother he haue receiued comfort to the peace of his conscience before the Priest come to visite him he is not insnared with any scruple of conscience that except he confesse it to the Priest he cannot be forgiuen You obiect First what if all his sinnes that come to minde trouble his conscience as you thinke all shoulde seeing according to our doctrine all be mortall and damnable I answere what if they do not trouble his conscience then doth our booke require no confession at his hands wheras all must of necessity come to your Popish shrift whether their consciences be troubled or no. And by the way all men may see what peace of conscience Popery breeds that leaues men vnder the torture of an accusing conscience for all the sinnes they can remember and that euen in the howre of death The holy Apostle Saint Paul 1. Tim. 1. 13. remembreth that in former time he had beene a blasphemer a persecutor and oppressor yet was not his conscience troubled at this time for he addeth presently that hee was receiued to mercie It could not be that he should apprehend and applie to
your owne putting falsly yet neither can you so hide your owne shame nor dazell the eyes of the godly by casting the mist of your owne deuise before them The question therefore is not as you say Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures we should not rather beleeue the auncient Fathers then those that liue in our daies neither onely whether Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit which is but a consequence following vpon that which you affirme touching the interpretation of Scriptures by the consent of Fathers as an infallible rule but this is indeede the question betweene vs and you Whether the Scriptures inspired of God in all fundamentall points both concerning faith and manners be not so cleere and plaine that they do sufficiently interpret themselues against which cleere interpretation none other is to be receiued from what authoritie so euer it come We affirme you deny And by denial make the interpretations of men of more credit then the interpretation of scriptures We haue the word of God on our side Ps 19. 7. The testimonie of the Lord is true and giueth wisedome to the simple 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise vnto saluation Ioh. 5. 39. Search the Scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life and they testifie of me The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to trie those things which Paul spake which had bene verie vainly done if the Scriptures had not bin a leere light vnto them to discerne of all necessarie doctrines We haue the godly Father S. Augustine cleere for vs in his Quaeapertè c. In those things which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are al those points found which coÌ„teine faith maners of life This being the state of the questioÌ„ let all godly men see whether it be not a reproch to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkenes and obscurity that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to vnderstand it no not in the principall matters of faith and godlinesse Could not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures speake to the vnderstanding of the simple you will say yes but perhaps he would not Our Sauiour Christ giueth thankes to his Father for reuealing the doctrine of the kingdome of heauen to Babes and Matth. 11. 25. hiding it from the wise The Apostle Paul saith If our Gospel he hid it is hid in them that perish in whom the God of this world 2 Cor. 4. 3. hath blinded their eies that is of the vnbeleeuers that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them The sheepe of Christ heare the voice of Christ and know it from the voice of strangers and therefore will not follow strangers How Ioh. 10. 4. 5. 27. could the sheepe of Christ who now heare his voice onely in the scriptures know his voice from the voice of strangers if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurelie yea let all reasonable men consider whether it be not a sandie foundation to build our faith vpon forsaking the scriptures inspired of God to depend vpon mens lips especially the eternall word of God hauing branded all men with Psal 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal 146. 3. Ier. 17. 5. this marke that all men are â—ers and therefore expresly commanding not to trust in any child of man yea cursing euery man that putteth his trust in man Augustine answering to an obiection of the Donatists pretending to be written against him by a cheife man of the Catholikes besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false counterfaite answereth thus Muliò minus c. Much lesse doth the Catholike Church Cont. Crescon lib. 3. cap. 80. regard it whose cause we plead against you from which confidently resting vpon so many diuine testimonies no humane testimonies of any maÌ„ be they true or false can take away that truth which it inioyeth forbeare such things I am but one man the Churches cause is â—n hand amoÌ„g vs not mine the Churches I say which hath learned of her redeemer to put her trust in no maÌ„ To conclude make not the simple people beleeue that we bring into coÌ„parison the interpretations of this age with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers which is a meere calumnious slander of yours We compare not mens interpretations with mens but Gods with mens God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spokeÌ„ do interpret others not so plaine 2. Cor. 3. 5. That the faith of Gods children should not bee in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Let the cause question be thus propounded and then none of the sheepe of Christ will euer make question of the matter PAPIST Fourthly concerning generall Councels I say that they cannot possiby erre in matters of faith for then might we lawfully disobey them and Christ willeth vs to take him as an Heathen or a Publicane that will not obey the Church then also should Hell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Then were Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth We therefore that imbrace the definitions of generall Councels possesse the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their iudgement PROTESTANT If Augustine said true as he is before alleaged that the former general Councels haue bin corrected by the later then surely in his iudgment the former must erre and one of them without doubt did erre But what say you to the determination of the Councell of Constance and Basile which you deny not to haue beene generall by whom the Pope is made De Baptis cont Donat. lib. 2. c. 3. inferior to the Councell Did they erre in it or not Albertus Pighiâ—s spareth not to affirme that they decreed plainelie against nature against the manifest Scriptures against all antiquitie and against the catholike faith of Christ So when generall Councels determine not for your tooth you will not sticke to charge them with error and shifts enough you haue to auoide them either they were not gathered by the Pope or not subscribed by the Pope or thinges were violently caried in them as your Melchior Canus obiecteth against Lib. 5. cap. vlt. diuerse Councels and specially against the sixt generall Councel in Trullo which in many points distasteth you And when the account is cast vp it is the Pope that cannot erre for those onely determinations of Councels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head which is the Pope But let vs see your strong reasons whereby you prooue that generall Councels cannot erre First you say Then might we disobey them And Christ willeth vs to take him as an heathen and a publican that will not heare the Church Let vs see your reason in forme If generall Councels may erre then may we disobey them
also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the