of your secte of whom you saie they see suche a light as vnder the Pope the worlde sawe not Of this it foloweth that the time then was in whiche Christe was not with you And so euery waie if Christes worde be true yours must be false M. Ievvel obiecteth agaiÌ„st the Churche as the old heretikes the Donatistes did But marke wel gentle Reader that whiche I wil now declare vnto thee M. Iewels obiectioÌ„ against the Church is the very olde obiection of the Donatistes For as M. Iewel saith here that it were to muche for vs hauing broken Gods commaundement c. yet neuerthelesse to binde Christe to his promise whiche was that his Church should continewe for euer and haue the Spirite of Truthe alwaies remaining in it So the Donatistes said ideo ex partibus terrarum August lib. 1. ca. 2 contra Epistol Parmen in quibus iam impletum erat perijsse Abraha semen quod est Christus euacuatas promissiones Dei quia ipsi non sunt admissi ad eorum communionem apud quos hoc iam retinebat orbis impletum That therefore the seede of AbrahaÌ„ that is Christ had perished froÌ„ out of other partes of the world where it had ben already fulfilled and therfore the promises of God touching the continuance of Christ with his Church to the worldes ende were made voide bicause they the Donatistes were not admitted to the Communion of those Christians in Fraunce Italie Spaine and other Christian Countries among whom the worlde kepte this promise of Christe already fulfilled They said the promise of Christes continuance was broken bicause al the other partes of the worlde besides and out of Africa communicated with Cecilianus and his successours whom they accused for * Traditores Deliuerers vp of the Scriptures in time of persecution and therefore accompted them for no parte of Christes Churche and refused to communicate with them euen as M. Iewel saith here that for our euil doinges Christe was not bound to his promise This obiection of the Donatistes seemed to a learned man of their owne secte Ticonius Ticonius by name vnreasonable and insufficient And therefore he wrote a booke of that matter to wit that the promises of God in the Scriptures for the continuance of his Churche vniuersally spred through the worlde could not possibly be broken through any wickednes of man or menne what soeuer This to be so S. Augustine witnesseth saying August li. 1. contra epist parmen ca. 1. Ticonius homo quidem acri ingenio praeditus vberi eloquio sed tamen Donatista omnibus sanctarum paginarum vocibus circumtusus euigilauit vidit Ecclesiam Dei toto orbe diffusam sicut de illo tanto antè per corda ora sanctorum praeuisum atque praedictum est Quo percepto suscepit aduersus ipsos suos demonstrare asserere nullius hominis quamuis sceleratum immane peccatum praescribere promissis Dei nec id agere quorumlibet intra Ecclesiam coÌ„stitutoruÌ„ quamlibet impietatem vt fides Dei de Ecclesiasâ—tura diffundenda vsque ad terminos orbis terra quae in promissis patruÌ„ retenta nunc exhibita est euacuaretur Ticonius a man endewed with a sharpe wit and with tongue at wil but yet a Donatist knockt vp on euery side with al the sayinges of the Bible waked out of slepe and saw the Church of God spred ouer al the worlde as thereof so loÌ„g time before by the hartes and by the mouthes of Saintes it was foresene and foretolde Which thing hauing perceiued he toke in hand against them of his own fide euideÌ„tly to shew and affirme that no mannes sinne being neuer so wicked and passing great doth prescribe against the promises of God and that no manner impietie of any what soeuer that be placed in the Church doth bring this to passe that the promise of God shuld be made void touching the Churche to come and to be spred abrode vnto the borders of the round world which promise was coÌ„tinued in the promises made to the Fathers of the old testameÌ„t and is now come to perfourmance Thus then wrote Ticonius the Donatiste being forced thereto by the very cleare euidence of holy Scripture Parmenianus an other Donatist foreseing as S. Augustin writeth that if the persuasion of Ticonius toke place then he and his felowes which did not coÌ„municate with the whole corps of Christendom should be no part of al the Catholik Church Dioscorde betvven the Gospellers as in olde time among the Donatistes so vniuersally dispersed and so being out of the Church should stand for Heretiques wrote first an epistle against this Ticonius and when that would not suffise procured him to be openly condeÌ„ned in a CouÌ„cel of their owne sect Euen as at this day the Lutherans write against the Sacramentaries as Westphalus against Caluine Brentius against Bullinger Illyricus against Beza Peter Martyr against BreÌ„tius Heshusius against Boquine condemning one the other al being protestants or rather as they wil be named Gospellers Against the foresaid Epistle of Parmenianus written as I said against Ticonius S. Augustin wrote three bookes learnedly defending the Scriptures alleged by Ticonius to proue that no impietie of men what soeuer and how great soeuer it were can possibly be hable to driue Christ to breache of his promise concerning the perpetuitie of his Churche in many Nations and the assistence of the holy Ghost therein You therefore M. Iewel that thinke it much for vs to claime by the promise of Christe bicause by our wretchednes he should no more be bound to his promise The Donatistes Heresie renevved by M. Ievvel do plainely renewe the wicked and detestable opinion of the Donatist Parmenian whom S. Augustine so largely confuteth I remitte the learned to the said worke of S. Augustine specially to the second booke The vnlearned I remitte to a late writteÌ„ Treatise intituled The Fortresse The Fortresse annexed to the historie of Venerable Bede translated into Englishe where he shal finde suche scriptures as proue an vniuersal and knowen continuance of Christes Churche largely laied forth and prosecuted out of the Psalmes the Prophetes and the new testament To be short therefore An Argument prouing this nevv Congregation not to be the true Churche of Christ I frame you once againe this argumeÌ„t The true Church of Christ is such a multitude as hath had euermore in al ages and times Christe present and the Spirit of truth remaining with it Your Congregation is such as was not extant in the earth many hundred yeres together before Luther was borne and therefore can not be said to haue had that presence of Christ Ergo your Congregation is not the true Church of Christ The Maior is euident by Christes owne promise and by your owne Confession The Minor you confesse also both in your Apologie and in this pretensed Defence as I said before The Conclusion therefore remaineth
witnesse Touching faith and doctrine of beleefe the first fiue hundred yeres no more vvorth then the thousand yeres that folovved But in respect of faith and the necessarie doctrine of our saluation it is a manifest blasphemie to saie that the first fiue hundred yeres are more worthe then the thousand that folowed For this assertion importeth that Christe assisted his Churche the first fiue hundred yeres absolutely and perfitely so that then the Pastours and Doctours of the Churches erred not in faith and doctrine but in the later thousand yeres the Churche was not so assisted of Christe and of the holy Ghost the Spirite of Truth but rather in suche wise neglected and forsaken as Idolatrie superstition yea palpable darkenes ouercame and preuailed And thus you M. Iewel who saie before Christ wil be with his Church euermore saie nowe otherwise that these thousand yeres are litle worth which is as much to saie as that Christes special prouidence hath failed his Churche after the first fiue hundred yeres And so shal his promise of his euerlasting assistance so oftentimes auouched in the holy Scriptures be founde to faile But Al menne be liers and God is true The promise of Christe the sonne of God is infallible The Churche therefore in no age or time wanted the assistance of Christe nor of the holy Ghost the Spirite of Truthe The Churche of Rome of whiche you speake so villanously neither hath preuailed The Churche of Rome the onely and true Church of Christe neither could possibly preuaile against Christe It hath preuailed against al Heresies and therefore no other Churche in the worlde appearing al these thousand yeres then the Churche of Rome by which worde I coÌ„prehende al nations agreing with the faith of that Churche that only was the true Churche of Christe and is to this daie and according vnto Christes promise shal endure to the ende of the worlde For as we shal not haue any other Christ so neither shal we haue any other Faith nor any other Church Iewel pag. 36. That the Princes and Free Cities of Germanie euer persecuted vs it is vtterly vntrue and like the rest of your tales None of them al no not one vvould euer suffer the same Doctrine of ours to be condemned Harding That the Sacramentaries haue ben persecuted by the Princes of Germanie and by their Doctours and by the free Cities The. 9. Chapt. This is so grosse and so palpable a lye that no man bâ—â— you M. Iewel would euer I thinke haue had the harte to affirme it so constantly and that in printe First Carolostadius Carolostadius the first professour in Saxonie of your Sacramentarie heresie was bannished out of al Saxonie by the procurement of Luther in the yere 1525. as witnesseth your owne frende Iohn Sleidan Sleidan Lib. 5. Histor Againe the yonger Princes of Saxonie and the Counteis of Mansfeld in the yere 1559. published eche of them a Write wherein they recken vp and condemne the one nine Lib. contra 9. Sectas Lib. coÌ„tra 11. Sectas Lauatherus in histor coÌ„tra Sacrament the other eleuen Sectes of the whiche your Secte of the Sacramentaries by name is one This is yet extant to be seene in print and can not be denied Lauatherus a Sacramentarie him selfe reporteth it Thirdly in the yere 1561. though in the meeting at Numburg by the intreatie of certaine Princes the Zuinglians were not condemned generally in al Germanie as the Princes of the Confession of Ausburg would openly and solemnely haue done yet in the same yere afterward in a Diet holden at Luneburg Lauatherus ibideÌ„ Surius FraÌ„ciscus Philippus in histor Albert of Hardenburg a great Zuinglian was openly condemned for an heretike Last of al in the same yere 1561. the Frenche Caluinistes were coÌ„maunded and forced by the Magistrates of FraÌ„kford either to practise no more their manner and order of religion there or to departe the Citie Yet you saie you were neuer persecuted either of the PriÌ„ces or of the free Cities in Germanie What shal I here speake of your brethren at Andwerpe whom the Martinistes for so they cal the Lutherans ioining with the Catholiques and putting them selues in armes draue awaie and compelled to flee the Citie If ye beleeue not me beleeue their flight beleeue your felow minister Hermannus the Predicant that of late was in Norwiche and now as I heare saie is driuen from thence I know not whither what fauour he and his felowes founde at the handes of the Martinistes Iewel Pag. 37. In deede certaine tovvnes of Germanie subiecte to Bishoppes in outvvarde vsages of their Churches remaine stil as they vvere before Yet neuerthelesse vvhere the Churches are popish the people of al sortes are Protestantes Harding This is a sensible lie and a mere sclaunder Great partes of Germanie yet remaining vvhole and Catholique The people of al sortes in Germanie where the Churches remaine Catholique do in suche numbers resorte vnto the seruice haunt the Sermons and frequent the Sacramentes as al that haue benne at Wormes at Spires at Augusta at Ingolstadt at Vratislauia and suche other Cities can beare witnesse that a man to saie as you saie must nedes proue him selfe gilty either of purposed lying as speaking against a knowen truthe or of a malicious iudgement as to iudge of mennes hartes contrary to their whole outwarde life and behauiour For by this you condemne of detestable Hypocrisie and dissimulation not only the people of al sortes in the forenamed Cities and diuers suche others where Catholiques liue mingled with Protestantes but also you condemne the whole Countries of Austria of Bauaria the great Dioces of Saltzburg of Passaw Mentz Treueres Coulen and other Territories where the whole face and shewe of Religion is onely Cathholike It is a smal token of grace yea of ciuill honestie for the setting forth of your conceiued opinioâ— so farre and so notoriously to sclaunder whole Natioâ— and Countries Iewel Pag. 37. Linea vlt. As for the VVest Spanish Indies the people there liued not only vvithout al manner knovvledge of God but also vvilde and naked vvithout any Ciuile gouernment Being in this miserable state and naturally by the very sense and iudgement of Common reason abhorring and lothing their ovvne blindnesse vvhat merueil is it if they vvere easy to be lead into any religion Harding M. Iewel attributeth the glorious conuersion of the Indians not to the power of the Gospel but to the leading of natural reason The 10. Chapt. What M. Iewel doo you enuie at the glorie of God Doth it greue you to see great Countries conuerted to the faith of Christe by them that be not of your Faith And wil ye needes to deface the power of the Gospel attribute the miraculous conuersion of that rude people vnto natural reason Had your heathnish harte herein rather acknowledge a leading of nature then the power of our Sauiour What could Porphyrie Iulian or Celsus
iudgement and minde touching obedience to princes and that in a booke dedicated and offred to be read euen of the Quenes Maiestie her selfe Confut. 15. a. Among other thinges thus I saie in my Confutation of the Apologie It standeth not with Goddes promises made to the Church touching his being with the Church al daies to the worldes ende and the holy Ghostes remaining with it Math. 28. Iohan. 14. the spirite of Truthe for euer that he should suffer his Churche to continewe in Darkenes and lacke of Truthe these thousand yeres past and now at the later daies to reuele the truthe of his Gospel by Apostates Vowebreakers Churcherobbers and suche others most vnlike to the Apostles Hereunto thus answereth M. Iewel Iewel pag. 32. You saie it standeth not vvith Gods promise to forsake his Churche a thousand yeres It is muche for you M. Harding openly to breake Gods cōmaundementes to defile his holy Sanctuarie to turne light into Darckenesse and Darckenesse into light and yet neuerthelesse to binde him too his promise Harding Goddes promise being infallible the Churche neuer erreth Se◠good Reader The. 7. Chapt. how absurdely and wretchedly M. Iewel answereth to this most euident and inuincible argument taken out of holy scripture I reason thus God promiseth he wil neuer Math. 28. no not one daie forsake his Churche Ergo if he forsooke it a thousand yeres as these menne tel vs he broke his promise M. Iewel answereth by a lewde kinde of Sophistrie called Petitio principij Petitio Principij that is the bringing forthe for proufe the thing it selfe whiche he ought to proue and whiche chiefely lieth in question and whiche wil neuer be graunted bicause it can neuer be proued That thing I saie he bringeth forth for a proufe and procedeth thereupon as vpon a matter vndoubted and graunted You M. Harding saith he haue broken Gods commaundementes you haue defiled his holy Sanctuarie c. Ergo you ought not to binde God to his promise This Antecedent or former proposition is the thing whiche he shoulde specially haue proued and then in Gods name he might thereof haue cōcluded what he coulde Now to bring it for proufe it selfe in respecte of true doctrine being most in question and vtterly denied by vs it is a lewde kinde of reasoning Againe beholde good Reader how he ouerturneth the Argument taken out of Gods worde I reason thus God hath promised his Churche should neuer erre Ergo it hath not erred these thousand yeres past he answereth The Church by our defaulte hath erred For we saith he haue turned light into Darckenesse c. Ergo God was not bounde to his promise What meane you M. Iewel As though God promising that his Churche should not erre prouided not also suche meanes whereby to preserue it from errour As though Gods promise depended of vs and of our wel doing As though any power of man or the worlde were hable to frustrate Gods promise As though if any suche power should haue come as you imagine the Popes power to haue darckened Christes Gospel Christe could not or would not haue foresene it or foreseing it would yet notwithstanding promise that Al daies he would be with his Churche Math. 28. Esaie 59. Iohn 14. and againe that the spirite of Truthe should assiste it for euer Thinke you M. Iewel that Christe our Sauiour forsawe not the Ruine or Darckenesse of his Churche of whiche so blasphemously you affirme Or thinke you that foreseing such an vniuersal Darckenesse to come and that for the space of so many hundred yeres together he would neuerthelesse haue said The Churches errour of a thousand yeres and the foreknovvledge of Christ can not stand together onlesse vve make Christe false of his promise as he said and haue so assuredly promised vnto his Apostles and in them vnto their Successours the perpetual assistance of the holy Ghoste the spirite of truthe with his Churche How could suche foreknowledge of Christe and suche a promise stand together Choose M. Iewel which you wil. The one of these you must of necessitie graunte that either Christe forsawe not the great Darckenesse to come whiche you saie you doo see and so you see more then Christe God and man euer sawe or foresawe or that Christe promised one thing and intended to performe an other thing He promised Al daies and for euer but intended to performe only fiue hundred yeres at the beginning and after the leape of a thousand yeres to graunte certaine yeres moe God knoweth how many O haynous blasphemie whereby Christe the Sonne of God the wisdome of his Father is proued either to haue ben ignorant of that whiche Protestantes knowe or elles to haue ben false of his promise But what neede many wordes M. Iewel him selfe immediatly after his former wordes to his owne condemnation saith Al menne be liers but God only is true Psal 50. 2. Tim. 2. and preuaileth when he is iudged God knoweth his owne Christe wil be euermore with his Churche That the light of truth hath not ben put out in the Churche yea although the whole Churche of Rome conspire against him Al this is true and the same doth euidently condemne you and your Religion Al menne be liers Protestantes for example whiche saie that these thousand yeres the Church hath ben corrupted and light hath ben turned into Darknesse God only is true Christes worde is true the Light of faith hath not benne turned into Darckenesse these thousand yeres nor any one yere at al onlesse Darckenesse and the Spirite of truth maie dwel together God knoweth his owne The Churche is his therefore he knoweth his Churche And bicause it is built vpon a hil it is euer sene and is neuer vnknowen Math. 5. Math. vlt. Christe wil be euermore with his Churche But with your Congregation or Synagog how shal I cal it he hath not ben these many hundred yeres for you saie in your Apologie The Pope hath blinded the whole worlde many hundred yeres and in this your Defence you saie againe that when Doctour Luther beganne to Publish the Gospel of Christe there was a general quietnesse suche as is in the night when folke be a sleepe c. Ergo your companie is not the Churche Let vs see vvhat you can ansvver to this argumēt M. Ievv Marke the Argument I require you and auoide it if you be hable To repete it once againe thus we saie Christe promiseth euermore to be with his Churche but Christe hath not ben euer more with you and your fellowes Ergo you and your fellowes are not the Churche The maior is true not only bicause it is Christes promise but also by your owne Confession The minor you confesse also in your Apologie it resteth ye discharge your selfe of the Conclusion Touching the minor the Pope you saie blinded the whole worlde many hundred yeres Then in those so many hundred yeres no man saw the light where then were they
is in heauen Out of this Scripture if your good wil and cunning would serue you ye maie see an argument plainely made from Angelles to menne Likewise from God to the Pope Petre amas me Pasce oues meas Peter louest thou me Iohan. 21. Feede or rule my sheepe If your cunning can not compasse suche Argumentes M. Iewel that are vsed in Scriptures from heauen to earth from Angelles to menne from God to the Pope yet it were good for you to leaue skoffing at suche argumentes as are vsed in the very Scriptures Iewel Pag. 100. But hovv knovveth M. Harding vvhat Orders of Angelles and Archangelles there be in heauen VVhat they doo Hovv they deale c. Harding Of Angelles to what purpose Osee was alleged of the Head inuisible and visible Forsooth I maie easily know that The 14. Chapt. whiche is euidently reueled in the Scripture yea so euidently that yoâ—â— ignorance must seeme to grosse to aske any suche question Of the Angelles That there be orders of Angelles it appeareth boâ—â— in diuers other places and specially by the fourth Chapter of S. Matthew where we finde that the Angellâ—s waite on Christe Matth 4. Beholde saith the Euangeliste the Angelles came and ministred vnto him You might haue founde mention of many thousandes of Angelles in the 12. Hebre. 12. Chapter to the Hebrewes There is mention also made of diuers Orders of Angelles in the epistle to the Colossians Coloss 1. Siue throni sine Dominationes siue Principatus siue Potestates omnia per ipsum in ipso creata sunt Ephes 3. 4. Archangelles 1. Thess 4. The like is to be seene in the epistle to the Ephesians Of Archangelles we reade in the epistle to the Thessalonians that our Lord shal come downe in the voice and in the commaundement or shoute of the Archangel and in the trompe of God In S. Luke we reade that there is more ioie in heauen before the Angelles for one sinner doing penaunce Luc. 15. then there is for 99. iust menne that neede no penaunce In the epistle to the Hebrewes we read that al the Angelles doo honour Christe Hebre. 1. and that al Angelles are spirites to doo seruice sent into seruice for them that doo receiue the inheritance of saluation Dionysius de Coelesti Hierarch cap. 6. Tobia 3. S. Dionyse the Areopagite speaketh of nine Orders of Angelles The Scripture in sundry places telleth vs that the Angelles doo offer vp the praiers of the faithful before God This we knowe of Angelles in heauen that they obey one God that they are spirites so confirmed in grace that now they can not sinne that they are ready to doo Goddes commaundement at al times that there are Orders emong them as there shal be emong them whiche shal be saued emong vs some placed in greater glorie then some others as S. Paule declareth by the diuersitie of Starres 1. Cor. 15. that are not al of one brightnesse We knowe that they being Spirites confirmed in grace hauing no motions at al to doo any thing contrarie to Gods wil neede no Pope to correct to pounish to excommunicate to depriue to depose them and to assoile them This muche we knowe concerning the Angelles and this might you M. Iewel also haue knowen And this confession if occasion so required would better haue becomme you then your skoffes fitter for a common Table Ieaster then for a man who professeth to teache others the duetie of life and truthe of beleefe To S. Dionysius M. Ievvel commoÌ„ly argueth negatiuely from autorities that wrote purposely of the gouernment of the Churche and made no mention of one Pope whiche you obiecte we saie that we holde him for vnskilful in his Logique who deduceth Argumentes negatiuely from any Fathers authoritie as for example That Father or this Father spake not of the proceding of the holy Ghost from the Father and the Sonne Ergo there is no suche thing Yet it had benne more for your commendation to haue argued from Heauen to earth from Angelles to menne from God to the Pope then so sottelike to reason against al good order of learning from Authorities negatiuely Howbeit in dede the manner of your reasoning is not from God to the Pope from Angelles to menne from Heauen to earth â–ª but from truth to errour from Religion to Hugonotrie from Christianitie to Paganisme from good to naught from Christe to Antichriste from God to Satan whiche manner of argumentes is not very holesome The Obiection of the name of Iosue mistaken for Osee You make muche a doo for that I mistake the naâ—â— of Iosue for Osee To mistake one mannes name for an other as long as there is no preiudice thereby made to the necessary doctrine of our Faith and the place truely alleged althoughe the name were mistaken it is but humaine errour In that I named Iosue for Osee I acknowledge myne errour and wishe you would doâ— the like when you erre and then ye should cal in againe al that you haue written hitherto wherein you should doo wel in wise mennes Iudgement and most safely for the wealth of your owne soule But to traine the people from truth to heresie and stubbornly therein to continew as you doo M. Iewel and where no other shifte wil serue you there to assaie whether you can skoffe out the truthe this is not humaine errour but a Deuilish practise Osee to vvhat purpose alleged The place of Osee was alleged for no other purpose but to shew that God doth vs to vnderstand that his Churche militant is then in most perfite state and in best order when al true beleeuers bothe conuerted Iewes and Gentiles doo obey one Head Now then if in the Gouernment of one Head consiste the best Order and state that can be planted in the Church though it be true Christe one and only head Inuisible that our Sauiour Christ be that one Inuisible Head as I neuer denied but that he is yet that the Visible Churche atteine vnto that perfite Order and state whiche the Prophete Osee commendeth for the best Head Visible it behoueth that it haue one Visible general Head that shal keepe and mainteine visible and external Order emong al the faithful This is the force of my drifte Neither for al that did I denie Iohan. 10. but that Christe is that one Head that Christe is that one Shepeheard that S. Iohn spake of whiche I doo openly confesse in my Confutation of the Apologie in the selfe same place where I allege the saying of the Prophete Osee and the saying of Christe out of S. Ihon. So that you needed not to allege al that out of S. Hierome Nicolaus Lyra and S. Augustine to proue that which I confessed before M. Ievvels coÌ„moÌ„ maÌ„ner in al his vvritiÌ„ges But this is your manner alwaies M. Iewel to shewe your copie in matters vndoubted and impertinent and when ye come
proufe is nedelesse the thing is manifest * Harding Here treating of Succession as thou seest Reader I haue among other things brought forth TertulliaÌ„ demauÌ„ding of the Heretikes the Original of their Churches Tertul. lib. de praescription and the Register of their Bishops succeding one an an other from the beginning til his tyme. Againe I haue alleged S. Augustine naming 38. Popes of Rome in order August Epist 165 and thereof coÌ„cluded that bicause neuer a one of them was a Donatist the Donatists were al Heretikes Whereupon I also concluded that seing among al the Popes from S. Peter til this daie none was of M. Iewels opinion he and his felowes the Zuinglians and Caluinistes must by the rule S. of Augustine be taken for Heretiques For the true Churche is where the true ordinarie and manifest Succession is from the Apostles til these our dayes This only I require of thee gentle reader that thou woldest vouchesafe to reade this matter through and not to iudge before al be heard For in deede following M. Iewelles confuse order of writing I could not dispose my thinges in such Methode and Order as the weight of the matter requireth Bicause the matter is of importance I intend to leaue out no parte of M. Iewelles woordes whereby he maie seeme to impugne the Catholique doctrine And by the treatie of this one poynte it will appeare what huge bookes we should write if we should directe a ful answer to euerie parte of his idle talke in the pretensed Defence conteined Thus then he beginneth Iewel Pag. 127. Here hath M. Harding taken some paines more then ordinarie He thought if he could by any coloure make the vvorld beleeue vve haue neither Bisshoppes nor Priestes nor Deacons this daie in the Church of England he might the more easily claime the vvhole right vnto himselfe And in deede if it vvere certaine that the religion and truth of God passeth euermore orderly by Succession and none othervvise then vvere Succession vvhereof he hath tolde vs so long a tale a verie good substantial Argument of the Truth Harding Irenaeus saith it is a certaine Rule to knowe the Truth by For hauing reckened twelue Popes who in order succeded after S. Peter to wit Linus Anacletus Clemens Euaristus Alexander Sixtus Telesphorus Hyginus Pius Aniceâ—â— Soter and Eleutherius who then was the twelfth Bishop from the Apostles Irenaeus lib. 3. ca. 3. immediatly he saith thus Hac ordinatione successione ea quae est ab Apostolis in Ecclesia Traditio veritatis praeconiatio peruenit vsque ad nos Et est pleâ—issima haec â—stensio vnim eandem viuificatricem fidem esse quae in Ecclesia ab Apostolis vsque nunc sit coÌ„seruata troditain veritate By this order and Succession the Tradition and preaching of the truth whiche is in the Churche from the Apostles time came euen to our daies And this is a most ful declaration that the faith whiche is kept in the Churche and deliuered in truth from the Apostles time euen til this present hower is the one selfe same faith which is the causer of life and of saluation He saith it is a most ful declaration of the true and liuely faith And you wil confesse I trow that where that faith is there is the true Churche of God Such a Succession of Bishoppes in diuers countries we haue and can shew it from the Apostles time til this daie As the rew and order of Popes in al Chronicles doth shew to the eie and witnesseth to the vnderstanding But such a Succession M. Iewel and his fellowes haue not therefore by his owne confession we haue a good substantial Argument of the Truth Iewel Pag. 127. But Christe saith In cathedra Moysi sederunt Scribae Pharisaei by order of succession the scribes Math. 22. and Pharisees sitte in Moyses chaier Harding Wel handled M. Iewel You bring these wordes as though Christe had spoken them in the reproche of Succession Whereas Christ in that place made an ArgumeÌ„t for Succession in this wise Super cathedram Moysi sederunt Scriba Pharisaei Math. 23. omnia ergo quaecunque dixerint vobis seruate facite Vpon the chaier of Moyses the Scribes and Pharisees haue sitten Therefore kepe ye and do ye what so euer they saie vnto you or commaund you to kepe Could you not see that Ergo M. Iewel whiche is to saie Therefore Could you not perceiue that Christ made a plaine argument why and why only the Scribes and Pharisees should be obeied The matter goeth as if in moe wordes it had ben thus said The Scribes and Pharisees be naughtie men their workes are not to be folowed they â—ie heauy and importable burdens laying them on mens shoulders Math. 23. but they themselues wil not so much as once mâ—â—â— them with their finger They do al their workes for a shew Thus Christ him selfe doth paint them forth al whiche notwithstanding for onely Successions sake bicause by order of Succession they sit in Moyses chaier which my father and I haue planted in respecte thereof doo ye and kepe what so euer they commaund you to doo and kepe Mark the vvord of keeping Marke that he bindeth the people to obeie the very Scribes for Successions sake and to obeye them in keeping and obseruing the former lawes and rites To keepe I saye Beware of that Bishop who not succeding but vsurping the Chaier of good men as M. Iewel doth hauing iustled him selfe into the Chaier of good S. Osmund and others mo in the Churche of Sarisburie doth yet commaund the people not to keepe thinges but to cast them away These nevv Bisshoppes vvil not the people to kepe their faith but to chaÌ„ge their faith There is no Bishop of this newe Religion that commaundeth the people to keepe their olde faith and law but alwaies he biddeth them to change it But Christe bad the people to doo that whiche the Pharisees commaunded them to keepe and not to folow their deedes The Pharisees killed Christe but by keeping their lawes and Orders they should neuer haue come thereto If euer place of holy Scripture made for any truth in the Gospel this place which M. Iewel bringeth against Succession maketh for it and so for it that it can neuer be auoided What Doctor euer wrote vpon the holy Scriptures who might not now be brought for a witnesse of this my assertion S. Augustine saith that Christe made the people secure concerning euil Rulers Ne propter illos doctrinae salutaris Cathedra descreretur August Epist 166. in qua coguntur etiam mali bona dicere Neque enim suae sunt quae dicunt sed Dei qui in cathedra Vnitatis doctrinam posuit veritatis Lest for their sakes the chaier of holesom Doctrine should be forsaken in the whiche yea wicked men are forced to saie that whiche is good For the thinges whiche they saie are not their owne but Gods who in
lyes and gloses and also an vnprofitable bestowing of good time Iewel They are gonne from Faith to infidelitie from Christe to Antichrists Harding Which they M. Iewel Did he speake of the Popeâ—… of Rome M. Ievvel odiously layeth that to the Bishops of Rome vvhiche vvas spoken generally by vvaie of coÌ„plaint of al euil ChristiaÌ„s You say touching the Church of Rome c. And yet now you bring forth that which was generally spoken and that by waie of complaint of al euil Christians and not namely of the Bisshops of Rome Againe how are they gonne from faith to infidelitie and from Christ to Antichrist Verely bicause they are gonne froÌ„ God to Epicure that is to say bicause many of them liue as if they had neither faith nor Christ nor God Last of al he saith not they are gonne as you falsifie his wordes but with a moderation would God they were not gonne He sheweth him selfe to feare lest they be gonne he taketh not vpon him boldly to affirme it as you doo Iewel And yet al other thinges failing they must holde onely by Succession and only bicause they sit in Moyses Chaire they must claime the possession of the vvhole This is the right and vertue of their Succession Harding Is it not reason if secular men hold their kingdomes landes goodes and rightes by Succession yea when al other rightes forces and vertues faile that Gods Ministers if they had nothing els leaft should hold stil their owne also by Succession It is wel knowen that the Bishops of Rome haue more then only Succession For they make good Decrees they geue answer to great consultations they cal General and Prouincial Councelles they execute the Canons of them and send forth Preachers as of late they haue done euen vnto the new found Indies beside many other godly and vertuous actes which they exercise for the saluation of their own soules and of the people But what if they had nothing but Succession Would you then haue men forsake their folde and Church Did Isaias so did Esdras so did Iudas Machabeus so did Zacharias so did S. Iohn Baptist so Can you deuise the Popes to be worse then Caiphas or the Pharisees Math. 23. And yet Christ willed them to be obeied albeit they had litle els beside Succession It is this Succession M. Iewel which shal lie in your and in your companions waie at the dredful day of accompte It shal not be demaunded of euery man why he studied not the Scriptures which most men haue not learned to reade But it shal be demaunded why they haue no faith nor charitie No faith by forsaking the open and knowen Succession no charitie by breaking vnitie Euery man seeth Succession ignorance can not be pretended and euery man shal be iudged by it concerning his Faith Iewel The vvordes of Tertullian M. Harding vvhich you haue here alleged vvere spoken of certaine your ancient fathers that had raised vp a nevv religion of them selues as you haue also done vvithout either vvorde of God or example of the Apostles and holy fathers Harding It is happy that at the length Here at length M. Ievvel beginneth to ansvver my vvordes but how consider you beginne to answere my wordes We shal now see how wel you touche Tertullians meaning You say his wordes were spoken of certaine my ancient Fathers That can not be so For none are in this behalfe my fathers but those who loue wel the Succession of Bishops But Tertullian spake of those De Prascription aduersus Haret that esteemed the Succession of Bishops as litle as you do And therefore they are your fathers of whom he speaketh that is to say they are Heretikes of whom he speaketh For in dede no heretike can abide Succession bicause they would faine iustle out the olde Succession to schuffle in their new Intrusion You say the men of whom Tertullian speaketh raised vp a new Religion of them selues and therein you say truth You adde as I also haue donne but therein you belye me for ye are not hable to laye any one point of doctrine to my charge wherein I follow not that old Succession which abhorreth al new Religion Let al the worlde iudge who raiseth vp a newe Religion you or I. You say the Heretiques of who Tertullian spake raised vp a new Religion without the Worde of God example of the Apostles or of holy Fathers If you meane without the true meaning of Gods worde you say truth and then you also are without Gods worde bicause you are without the Church whereunto Gods worde with the true interpretation thereof was geuen and we are not without it bicause we conteine our selues within the Churche But if you meane that these heretikes did not sounde the wordes of the Scriptures in their lippes as falsely and withal as fast as you doo then you say not truly For Tertullian in that booke doth shew that the Heretikes also appealed to the Scriptures Tertullian in Prascript aduersus haeret and he answered that to striue with heretiques vpon the scriptures was a thing of vncertaine victorie bicause one saith it is not holy Scripture an other saith it is holy Scripture one saith it is meant thus an other saith it is â—â—â—â—t otherwise But saith Tertullian the interpretation of the Scriptures belongeth to them It booteth not to striue vvith heretiques about the Scriptures who haue the true faith and he concludeth that they haue the true faith who haue the perpetual Succession of Bishoppes from the Apostles time til their owne daies Scripturas obtendunt hac sua audacia statim quosdam mouent The Heretiques pretende to bring Scriptures for them selues and with that their impudencie forthwith they shake some And afterward Ibidem Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est nec in his constituendum certamen in quibus aut nulla aut incerta victoria est aut parum certa Therefore we must not alwaies appeale vnto the Scriptures neither must we striue about them in which either no victorie at al or an vncertaine or verely not very certaine victorie is obteined Then sheweth he that heretikes of right haue not to doo with the Scriptures but onely the Catholiques Heretiques of right haue not to doo with the Scriptures TertulliaÌ„ Ibidem to whom the Apostles deliuered them and not them only but other thinges also viua voce by mouth and worde without writing Si hac ita sunt constat proinde omnem doctrinam quae cum illis Ecclesiis Apostolicis matricibus et originalibus fidei conspiret veritati deputandam reliquam verò omnem doctrinam de mendacio praeiudicandam quae sapiat contra veritatem Ecclesiarum Apostolorum Christi Dei. If this be so then is it euident that al such doctrine as agreeth with those that are the Apostolique Churches the mother Churches and the original Churches of the faith is to be taken for true and that al other
doctrine is to be adiudged to come of lying as that which sauoureth against the truth of the Churches of the Apostles of Christ and of God Our doctrine proued to be true by the Successiō of the Apostolique Churche Now concerning our Churches it is euident that we agree with the original and mother Churches which were planted by the Apostles For we agree in faith with the Churche of Rome which was planted by the most blessed Apostles S. Peter and S. Paule and alwaies kepte her Succession til this present daie and therefore our doctrine is true But you agree in faith with no Churche at al now extant in the worlde which came from the Apostles and therefore your doctrine by the rule of Tertullian is false and lying Whiles he then disputed with Heretikes as we doo now with you he said either these Heretikes confesse that they beganne since the Apostles time and they are false teachers or if any of them dare intrude them selues into the Apostles age Edant origines Ecclesiarum suarum then let them bring forth the beginninges or shew the original euidences of their Churches let them vnfold the order of their Bishops so ronning along from the beginning by Succession that he who is the first Bishop had for his founder and predecessour one of the Apostles or of the Apostolike men who continued til the ende with the Apostles in the same faith Hoc enim modo Ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deferunt For by this way the Apostolike churches do shew forth along their publike registers At length hauing brought forth the examples of the Churche of Smyrna and of the Churche of Rome and of other like Churches he concludeth thus confidenly Consingant tale aliquid Haeretic◠let the Heretiques feine some suche matter He bad them feme For he wel knewe in truth they coulde shew no suche Succession I haue then shewed that Tertullian spake not of Heretikes who lacked the pretense of Gods worde M. Ievvels Doctrine is proued by Tertulliā erroneus for lacke of Succession proued but of them who had no Succession of Bishoppes from the Apostles time til their owne age And one such Succession of Bishoppes in any one Church of al the worlde seing M. Iewel can not bring forth it remaineth that he is an Heretike and that his Doctrine is erroneus false and heretical Iewel Tertullian saith not vnto vs but vnto you and suche as you be let them shevv forth the Originals of their Churches Harding Is that al he saith M. Iewel Why went you not forth to the next wordes The Scrolles or rolles of Bishops names Let them vnfold the order of their Bishoppes He calleth it vnfolding bicause the Bishoppes names were vsed to be kept and written in order in long Rolles the whiche Rolles must be vnfolded when they are to be read He meant not therefore such Originals M. Iewel as you imagine to wit particular examples of this or that facte but he meant the Original copies or instrumentes and euidences of founding and planting of their Churche who it was that preached the Faith first vnto them and who was their first Bishop who the second who the third and so forth vntil the present time Iewel Euen so vve say vnto you shevv vs the Originals of your doctrine Harding You say not euen right so as Tertullian said For he called not for the Originals of Doctrine but of Churches Originals of Churches For by the Churches the Doctrine is knowen to be good or euil to be allowable or reproueable Iewel Shevv vs any one of the Apostles of Christe or of the learned Catholike Doctours of the Churche that euer said your priuate Masse Shevv one at the lest either Greeke or Latine Harding It was not that which Tertullian required He demaunded only for the Originals of Churches and for the order and Succession of Bishops But for that you durst not cal knowing that we could shew how S. Augustine conuerted vs being sent into England from S. Gregorie the Pope whiche Pope S. Gregorie succeded S. Peter in his Chaier Thus we can shew the Originals of our Churches bringing them from the Catholike Bishops whiche are yet aliue M. Ievvslyly diuerteth from the present matter to an other mater impertinent touching priuate Masse vpward vntil S. Peter But you are fallen away from the matter of Succession which only Tertullian presseth and are now come to demaunde of a particular facte whether any Apostle or olde Father euer said priuat Masse or no. I say al of them might haue said priuate Masse and that I proue by Tertullians reason and rule bicause the vse of saying priuate Masse came to vs time out of minde by Succession without any change or innouation noted therin by any storie or Chronicle And yet was ther neuer any strange or new thing receiued and vsed in the Churche but that great trouble came thereof as now there doth of your changing of Religion the whiche trouble of Churches and common Weales is at no time omitted in the stories of that age wherein it falleth But now seing the vse of saying priuat Masse came so peaseably to vs from hand to hand and no first author thereof can be shewed it is out of al controuersie that it was euer accompted a Godly and a lawful thing But what neede I now to repeate that I haue already written in that argument Answer that parte of my booke better to the purpose then yet ye haue donne whiche treateth of that point where many plaine euidences be brought forth of Sole Receiuing Sole Receiuing in the Primitiue Churche In my ansvvere Art 1. and likevvise in my first Reioindre Aug. Epi. 165. whiche Sole Receiuing is the onely thing for whiche you reproue priuate Masse as you cal it It is cleare that S. Chrysostom and certaine others said Masse and yet had no man to receiue with them as I haue other where declared I thinke not good now to fal into that Disputation againe and therefore here I wil cal you home to the present Argument of Succession Iewel Pag. 128. 129. S. Augustine saith of so many Bishops of Rome there could not one be found that had benne a Donatiste Euen so in like sorte say vve to you of al the same Bishops of Rome there can not be one found that euer agreed vvith M. Harding in saying Masse Or if there vvere any such shevv his name vvith other Circumstances vvhen and vvhere and vvho vvere vvitnesses of the doing Shevv vs your Originals M. Harding Confesse the Truth deceiue vs no longer It is a nevv deuise ye haue it only of your selues and not by Succession from the Apostles Harding You pretend to reason like S. Augustine as though he had reasoned vpon a particular facte and not vpon the Doctrine Euen so in like sorte say you and it is not euen so nor in like sorte S. Augustine concluded that the Donatistes were Heretikes S. Augustines
ye must go into the pit of Hel to fetch out Aêrius Pelagius Vigilantius Iouinian Heluidius Manichaeus and such others of condemned memorie to geue light vnto your Churche or els you can bring foorth none at al. For whereas al the Greekes Epiphan Haeres 75 as it may appeare by Epiphanius and al the Latines as it may appeare by S. Augustine condemned him for an heretike who said the prayers of the liue could not helpe the dead what catholike is it possible to bring foorth for the yere of our Lorde three hundred and fiftie or foure hundred who taught as ye now teache that it is not lawful nor profitable to praye for the dead Wel ye are not the light nor the daye Is your doctrine at the least the truth Nay that is the truth which is also the light For the true doctrine is taught in that Church which is built vpon an hil and can not be hid The truth is vniforme Math. 5. but emong you Luther and Zuinglius Caluine and Westphalus Bullinger and Brentius Illyricus and Beza and sundrie other couples and partes agree so wel that a man may easily know them to be false Prophetes For whereas they al disagree yet they are al without that Churche where vnitie is preserued in the perpetual Succession of many Bishops alwaies agreeing in one saith Therefore your doctrine is neither the light nor the daye nor the truth but darkenesse but night but errour Iewel 131. Novv for as much as ye haue thought it so good to examine the petite degree of Bishops of Sarisburie I trust you vvil not thinke it il if I a litle touch the lâ—ke in the Bishops of Rome that vve may thereby the better be hable to see some of the branches of your Succession Harding In dede they of whom you speake are but some of the branches of our Succession For you touch of two hundred and thirtye Bishops of Rome not thirteene and yet our Succession consisteth also of al the Bishops in Italie Spaine Fraunce Germanie Sicilie Polonia Hungarie Denmarke Suethen and England euen til king Henrie the eightes time But go too on Gods name touche whom you can I am wel assured you wil plaie the Spider to espie if any poison can be found any where Let vs see with what truth and honestie you blase their faultes The worst that can be said of al the Popes touching doctrine by the Protestantes is here gathered together and laid forth by M. Iewel and the same is truly answered Iewel Pag. 131. Therefore shortly to say you knovv that Pope Marcellinus committed Idolatrie Harding Of S. Marcellinus Martyr and Pope I know that after his Idolatrie whereto he yeelded for feare of death he repented and shed his bloud for Christe and dyed a glorious Martyr euen as S. Paule after that he had persecuted the Churche through grace repented and died for Christes name Who ought now to be more ashamed of S. Marcellinus you that chalenge him for an Idolatour or I that chalenge him for a Martyr The Idolatrie you speake of is gone and pardoned the Martyrdome whereof I speake is euerlastingly crowned in heauen The ende M. Iewel trieth al whereof you should haue taken your iudgement And yet this very Idolatoure bicause he was S. Peters Successour and sate in the first See was in case for the roume he occupied to be iudged of no man in the earth as tâ—e Councel of three hundred and thirtie Bishoppes assembled at Sinuessa pronounced aboue twelue hundred yeres past Tom 1. Concil Primasedes non iudicabitur à quoquaÌ„ The first seate shal not be iudged of any man What haue you wonne now by this example but that you do the world to vnderstand what malicious stomake ye beare against the Popes of Rome whose faultes ye are right glad to espie and blase abroade although they repented of them Verely it would haue becomme a sonne of the Churche to conceele suche actes of frailtie and not to see suche spottes that were with so abundant founteines of teares cleane washed awaie and with the bloude of so glorious Martyrdom quite blotted out Iewel 131. Pope Syluester the secoÌ„d vvas a Coniurer and gaue himselfe vvhole body and soule to the Deuil and by the Deuilles procurement vvas made Pope Harding That Syluester the second came to be Pope malis artibus by euil meanes it is not so cleare a matter as you make it Platina the chiefe author we haue for credite of that Storie vttereth it doubtefully by his Parenthesis vt aiunt as they saie Whereby he geueth vs to vnderstand that he was not hable to auouche it for a certaine truthe but referreth him selfe to the vulgare rumour of the people which most commonly bruteth abroad moe lies and vanities then truthes and certainties How beit Platina Platinae in vitis PontificuÌ„ Pope Syluester 2. his repentance at the ende who tolde you al this added also Poenitentia motus errorem suum coram populo fassus c. being moued with repentance and confessing his errour before the people he first exhorted them al that ambition and the deuilles deceites laide aside they should liue wel And afterward his body was miraculously drawen by horses to the chiefe Church of Rome and there was buried If you beleue the one you must beleue the other sithence it is but one Storie whereof you told the first parte and I the last Whereupon I attribute so much to that holy Succession that I doubte not as euil a man as he once was but God delte the more mercifully with him for his good predecessours sakes who I doubte not prayed for him that he might die penitently and be a saued soule Iewel 131. Pope Zosimus for ambition and claime of gouernment corrupted the holy Councel of Nice Harding You say it Pope Zosimus sclaundered by M. Ievv but neuer did any honest man say it from the beginning of the worlde til this time neither was the same yet euer proued For albeit he alleged such wordes of a certaine Canon as the other copies had not yet did no man lay to his charge that he had corrupted the CouÌ„cel For he alleged that which he found in his own copies I say to you M. Iewel there is nothing shewed by this your tale but that you are a man of il dispositioÌ„ who gladly reporte euil and besides that you finde reported of others inuent your selfe that which vtterly is false to diminish the estimation of a holy man that died eleueÌ„ hundred yeres past Marke the point I say if it be said of any man that euer wrote in the olde time that Pope Zosimus corrupted the Councel of Nice then you or your fellowes did not feine it but if no man said it but bawdy Bale or Illyricus and suche others the like then your part is with liers and sclaunderers and thereafter shal your iudgement be without you repente whiche God graunt you M. Stapleton in the
euerlasting which God graunt vs al. Of many other questions I haue said somewhat But herein is most profite bicause in few it conteineth al the rest For where the Churche is there al the necessarie treasure of Gods wisedome Isai 59. there is the holy Ghoste there is the worde of truth and the incorporation with Christe the spouse and husband thereof Whosoeuer loueth his soule health If thou vvilt be â—uâ—d depart not out of the Churche let him vnderstand wel which is the true Church and keepe him selfe therein For it is ordeined of God as a mother and a nourse to conteine and keepe al menne safe within it who doo not wilfully depart out of it The continuance of it is by Succession Sheepe succede after Sheepe and Bishops who be the Sheepeheardes after Bishops those to be fedde these to seede If those can not faile at any time neither can these lacke or faile We shew both M. Iewel sheweth neither any SuccessioÌ„ of Shepe nor of Bishops Therfore he that resteth with M. Iewel is out of the Folde And he that wil be the saued Sheepe of Christe must abide in or if he be out returne to the Folde of Peter to whome alone as louing more then others it was said Ioan. 21. feede my lambes feede my sheepe Of Auricular or Sacramental Confession Iewel Pag. 133. VVe saie that priuate Confession to be made vnto the Minister is neither commaunded by Christe Chrysost â—d Hebr. homil 30. nor necessary to saluation and therefore Chrysostom saith I wil thee not betraye thy selfe openly not to accuse thy selfe before others But I counsel thee to obeyâ— the Prophete saying open thy waye vnto the Lorde Harding Confâ—ssioÌ„ necessary priuate or publique Iohan. 20. NEither doo we say precisely that Priuate Confession is necessarie but that either Priuate or Publike is necessarily to be made to a Priest bicause he onely hath power of Christe to forgeue and to reteinâ— sinnes And he can not iudge who are to be forgeuen or who are to be reteined excepte the sinners do particularly open their hart and thought where the founteine of sinnes is Matt. 15. accordingly as Christ said Euil thoughts come forth from the hart S. Chrysostom in this place speaketh not in deede of Sacramental Confession but of that which is daily to be made vnto God alone Of the coÌ„fessioÌ„ that S. Chrystom speaketh of Ad Heb. hom 31. He had said before Poenitentem non oportet peccatum suum obliuioni tradere peccatum Confessione minuitur nullum inuenitur delictorum tale remedium sicut eorum continuata memoria The penitent must not forgete his sinne The sinne is diminished by Confession No such remedie of sinnes is found as the continual remembrance of them Nec tantum nos peccatores esse dicamus sed etiam ipsa peccata specialiter singula computemus Neither let vs only saye we are sinners in general but let vs recken vp euery sinne in special Vpon which wordes immediatly it foloweth I saie not to thee that thou shalt bewray thy selfe openly but open thy way vnto our Lorde Now put the whole tale of S. Chrysostome together whereas he willed men to haue continual remembrance of their sinnes to confesse them and that in special and particularly and stil to do it a man might worthily haue said vnto him why syr shal I go euery daye to the Priest and neuer leaue confessing the selfe same sinne To this obiection he maketh answer saying Ibid thee not bewraie thy selfe openly nor to accuse thy selfe before others Reuele thy wayes to God Here then we haue Particular and ofte remembrance of sinnes that it is good to cal the selfe same sinnes oftetimes particularly to remeÌ„brance and to coÌ„fesse them ofte vnto God But that they neede not at al to be confessed to the priest that S. Chrysostome saith not For in other places he hath taught vs that the priest is in better case to purge sinnes now then the priest in the lawe was to shewe that the leprouse were purged His wordes are Corporis lepram haud purgare quidem Chrysost Lib. 3. de Sacerdotio Priestes haue povver to purge the Lepre of the soule sed purgatos probare Iudaeorum sacerdotibus solis licebat At vero nostris sacerdotibus non corporis lepram verùm animae sordes non dico purgatas probare sed purgare prorsus concessum est The priestes onely of the Iewes had power not to purge the Lepre of the body but to trie them that were purged But truly vnto our Priestes it is geuen vtterly to cleanse not the Lepre of the body but the filth of the soule Marke reader these wordes To cleanse and not to trie who are cleane If our Priestes do so farre passe the Priestes of the Lawe and yet no Leprous man might be admitted into the Temple and Communion of the Iewes vntil the only Priestes of Moyses law had declared him to be cleane much lesse can any mortal sinner who in his soule is leprous be ordinarily purged but onely by the Priestes of Christ who now as S. Chrysostom saith doo not only shew that men are purged but haue power throwghly to purge the lepre that is to saie the mortal sinne of the soule But how can they discretely purge that which is not shewed vnto them Math. 8. When Christ sent away the leprouse man bidding him to shewe him selfe vnto the prieste then he declared as in a figure of the law that in the time of the new testament a great sinner should not be purged before that he had shewed him selfe that is to saie had reueled the soares of his hart and conscience vnto the priest So haue we that it is good and necessarie to confesse al our sinnes vnto God and our Lepres or mortal sinnes also vnto the Priest Of these two truthes neither impugneth other That is a continual practise of Heretikes to reproue the one kind of Confession bicause they find somtimes the other alone coÌ„meÌ„ded or spokeÌ„ of A wise and a good maÌ„ wil coÌ„ferre and ioine al truthes together and not go about to destroie one truth by another As for Gratian and al your hotchepotte of gloses I wil leaue for a more conuenient place where perhappes if it shal be thought worth the labour they shal be answered al at ones Against your heretical Proposition I wil set S. Basils catholike iudgement It was demaunded of S. Basil Qui vult confiteri peccata sua Basil In Quaest CoÌ„peud 288. num omnibus confiteri debet quibuscunque quibus He that wil confesse his sinnes whether he ought to confesse them to al men and to what soeuer personnes or els to whom Hereunto he maketh this answer Necessarium est confiteri peccata ijs quibus administratio mysterioruÌ„ Dei concredita est Sic enim qui olim poenitentiaÌ„ egerunt coram sanctis fecisse comperiuntur ScriptuÌ„ est enim in EuaÌ„gelio quideÌ„ quòd
his vvord they vvould euermore haue vs stand in doubt but of the Pope and his vvord they say in any vvise vve maie not doubt Harding Our doubte is not whether Gods word ought to be beleeued no man doubteth thereof But onely what is the meaning thereof And then besides to vnderstand it the better we ioine vniuersal tradition with it and in al further doubtes we say the Pope or the General Councel is the highest and laste iudge in earth to declare vnto vs the meaning of Gods worde Otherwise we should neuer haue an end of Controuersies as we see by experience betwen the Lutherans and Zuinglians Ievvel Pag. 200. 201. Hovv knovv you saith M. Harding that the scriptures be the scriptures c. The Church of God had the spirit of vvisedom vvhereby to discerne the true scriptures from the false So saith S. a In prooemi in Luc. Ambrose S. b cōt Fau lib. 22. Augustin and c 80. li. 6. ca. 2. Eusebius Yet vvil it not folovv that the Church is aboue the scriptures Harding If the Church of God haue the spirite of wisedome to discerne the true scriptures from the false shal it not also haue the same wisedom of God to expound the holy Scriptures and also to determine any question arising thereon Neither doo we say that the Church is aboue the Scriptures in authoritie but that it is to vs better knowen and as a more liuely so a more plaine teacher then the Scriptures be For if we aske the Scriptures any question Clemēs Alexand. li. strō 1 be it neuer so hard as Clemens Alexandrinus hath wel noted They wil answer vs no more then it is written But if any man aske the Church neuer so manie questions if the knowledge be behooful for mannes soule health it wil euer make him to eche question an answer and so wil dimisse him with a ful satisfaction touching al his doubtes 1. Tim. 3. For this cause the Church is called the piller of truth And as you confesse that the Church hath shewed vs which be the true Scriptures so must you likewise graunte that the Church hath the spirite of God to shew vs the truth in al behooful cases yea euen in those which be not expressely written For where is it written expressely that the church of God should haue the spirit of God for this ende to shew vs the true Scriptures to approue the true Scriptures and to condemne the false forgeries Luc. 10. Mat. 18. Christe said generally of al matters He that heareth you heareth me Item he that heareth not the Church let him be to thee as an Heathen and a Publican Of the Sacramentes of the Churche The thirde Chapter Iewel Defence Pag. 103. 104. M. Harding saith there be seuen Sacramentes vvhich as he saith do not only signifie a holy thing but also doo make holy those to vvhom they be adhibited But hovv can Matrimonie sanctifie a man and make him holy Or by vvhat institution of Christ conteineth it grace in it selfe and povver to sanctifie Harding Ephes 5. S. Paule answereth you thus Ye husbandes loue your wiues as Christ hath loued his Church And then he proueth the wife to be the flesh of the husband as also the Church is the body of Christe And so both waies the Prophecie of Adam is verefied Gen. 2. that two shal be in one flesh Sacramentum hoc magnum est in Christe Ecclesia Sacramēt Mysterie This is a great Sacrament or a great Misterie in Christe and the Churche For we stand not now vpon the worde but vpon the thing What is that great Mysterie First Matrimonie is alwaies a coniunction of two in one both by natural consent of myndes and also if it be consummate by corporal coniunction Now by Christes institution that coniunction is also made inseparable Matt. 19. when he said That which God hath ioined together let not man separate or put a sunder Nowe then this coniunction is made to be inseparable betwen faithful persons it is directed by Christ and instituted purposely to signifie his inseparable coniunction with the Church And whiles it is instituted of Christe to signifie that thing it is made a Sacrament or Mysterie whereunto Christe geueth grace and holinesse for that purpose For when any thing or action is appointed by Christ to signifie a holy thing in Religion that action is thereby made a Sacrament and doth sanctifie the worthy receiuers of it We see that Circumcision might be made and was vsed among some Infidels and to them it was no Sacrament Gen. 17. But when the faithful were commaunded to circumcide them selues to signifie the Circumcision of the harte which Christe should make in them that beleeued by his spirit and grace then Circumcision was made a Sacrament and did sanctifie the worthy receiuer Euen so it is in Matrimonie as S. Augustine saith August lib. 1. de Nupt. Concupis cap. 10. Ephes 5. Quoddam Sacramentum nuptiarum commendatur fidelibus coniugatis Vnde dicit Apostolus viri diligite vxores vestras sicut Christus dilexit Ecclesiam A certaine Sacrament of Marriage is commended vnto the faithful married personnes Whereupon the Apostle saith ye men loue your wiues euen as Christe loued his Churche Huius proculdubio Sacramenti res est vt mas foemina connubio copulati quà m diu viuunt inseparabiliter perseuerent Nec liceat excepta causa fornicationis à coniuge coniugem dirimi hoc enim custoditur in Christo Ecclesia vt viuens cum viuente in aeternum nullo diuortio separetur The thing doubtlesse of this Sacrament is The thing of the Sacrament of Matrimonie that the man and woman ioyned together in Marriage as long as they liue continew together vndisseuered and that it be not lauful for the one to be separated from the other but for fornication For this thing is kept in Christ and the Church that he lyuing with the liuing for euer by no diuorce be separated Here we learne not only that the name but also that the thing of a Sacrament is in the Marriage of Christians which thing doth sanctifie those persons that come worthily to Marriage For as Marriage was from the beginning ordeined to begete Children so by Christ it is ordeined to a higher signification verely not to be separated whiles the parties married together doo liue and thereby to signifie Christes inseparable vniō with his Church The chief signification of Matrimonie And as that vnion of Christ with vs is an inseparable sanctification to faithful men so is the signe thereof a special sanctification to them who married in our Lorde It is knowen that as S. Augustine assigneth there are tria bona matrimonij August li. de Nuptijs Concupisc fides proles Sacramentum Three good thinges are in Mariage the faith or fidelitie of wedlocke which the man and wife must kepe rendring duetie the
making great bookes Write fewer wordes more truth Truste not euery pelting booke that seemeth toothsom vnto you yea write nothing but truth and ye shal ease vs of much paynes Now a mannes life wil not serue him to discouer the multitude of your Lies to such impudencie ye are growen What man is there hauing any sparke of shamefastnesse that would referre vs so often and so confidently to a booke by a title which it neuer had ne neuer was any such written And therefore vntil you bring forth your authour hereof you must be content to beare al the blame of a sclaunderous and impudent Lier It had ben an easie matter for you to haue vowed Tritemius de Scriptoribus Ecclesiasticis Conradus Gesnerus Bibliotheca or his Epitome or elles Cusanus workes printed at Basile anno 1565. which was out almost two yeres before your Defence was published where you should haue founde that he neuer wrote booke of any suche title What is to be thought hereof but that either you haue maliciously inuented this Lie of your selfe to deface the authour withal or elles that you haue vnwisely receiued it of some other who is not hable to abide by it If of your selfe then maius peccatum habes if of any other then bring him forth a Goddes name to discharge your selfe of malice albeit not of folie I do ghesse that you wil peraduenture bring forth a greate Stoareman of yours who furnisheth you with suche gaie stuffe and maketh you a greate Truant a felowe meete for the purpose that wil neuer faile suche a false merchant at a neede I take him to be that sures bee of yours Matthias Flacius Illyricus For you declare your selfe that you beside other bookes of his haue benne busie with his Norma Concilij Tridentini And there I finde written In altera parte clauis Scripturae pa. 541. Nicolai Cusani post quam factus est Cardinalis sententia de auctoritate Ecclesiae Concilij supra contra Scriptutam But yet this wil not discharge you of malice For he saith not that he entituled his booke so as you doo affirme but doth pretende to recite Cusanes minde of that matter as this worde Sententia declareth Now one maie gather an other mannes minde concerning any matter out of his writinges though he neuer made any worke of that title Neither doth Illyricus specifie in that place the worke out of the which he hath drawen that whiche he there allegeth and whiche you receiued of him againe at the seconde hande So that I can not perceiue but that the blame bothe of folie and of malice must reste stil vpon your owne persone For I suppose you wil not haue your selfe taken for so ignorant as to thinke Sententia is latine for a booke or if you wil then why doo you so bragge as it were and boast of your great reading and learning Moreouer you haue not onely geuen vs a false title of your owne imagination to Cusanus writinge but also of an Epistle you haue made a Booke That your good intente and plaine dealing herein maye be more euident I wil recite the title of thal Epistle as it is to be founde amonge his workes printed at Basile Anno 1565. Pagin 851. 852. Epistola 7. Nicolai de Cusa Cardinalis ad Clerum Literatos Bohemiae and thereunto in the toppe of the leafe is added De amplectenda vnitate Ecclesiae Let bothe these Titles be conferred and your malicious intent in so wilfully deprauing the authours wordes to bring him out of credite must most manifestly appeare Wel perchaunce you wil saye though the title be altered yet his wordes out of that same Epistle be truely recited wherein consisteth the chiefe effecte and principal purpose If you so saye you wil be proued no lesse a Lier and false reporter herein then you haue benne in the reste And for example hereof I wil bringe euen the very firste place that you haue alleged out of him You tel vs page 55. that thus he saith Sequuntur Scripturae Ecclesiam non è conuerso Cusanus fovvly falsified by M. Ievvel The Scriptures of God followe the Churche but contrariwise the Churche followeth not the Scriptures You haue here clipped the Authours sentence and quite altered the sense His wordes are these Ecclesia igitur sicut recipit Scripturam ita interpretatur Pag. 858 Sequuntur Scriptura Ecclesiam quae prior est propter quam Scripturae non è conuerso The Churche as it receiueth the Scripture so doth it expounde the same The Scriptures therefore do follow the Churche which is the former and for the which the Scripture is ordeiined and not contrariwise What oddes is betwixt this sentence of Cusanus and that whiche you haue fathered vpon him any meane witted man maie ealsily perceiue For Cusanus wordes in their right forme doo bothe stande wel and haue a good meaning But your false changing of them causeth them to importe an intollerable Derogation to the Scriptures without any colour of truth For as it is most true that the Church was before the Scriptures that is to saie the written worde of God and that the Scriptures were ordeined and appointed for the Churche but not contrariwise the Churche for the Scriptures so is it very false that the Scriptures doo followe the Church and the Church not the Scriptures For why hath the Church receiued the Scriptures but to follow them and put them in execution both in our inward beleefe and in our outward actions Doo you not blush M. Iewel thus wilfully to peruerte that with your false iuggling and conueying awaie of those wordes quae prior est propter quam Scripturae whiche before had a right good sense You thought by like you should neuer heare thereof againe nor be called to any reckening or elles you would haue had more regarde ro your good name and honestie You can pretende no tollerable excuse as that you had not Cusanus workes at hande For euen Illyricus vpon whose credite you haue taken vp al that you haue out of this epistle doth not otherwise reporte the same Pag. 544. in 2. parte Clauis Script then they are to be founde in the authour But you thought you would passe him an ase in falsehood although he be his craftes master therein How fowly you haue ouershote your selfe in falsifying sentences and misreporting authour for authour and booke for booke that which hath hitherto ben declared maie be sufficient instruction to any man that is willing and desirous to vnderstande the truthe and not content to be lead into wilful blindnes and errour Howbeit to make the matter a litle more sensible and plainer and also to geue you occasion the better to know your folie and not to exalte your selfe ouermuch with pride vaine glorie and presumption of I can not tel what extraordinarie knowledge as you seeme to doo I wil set before your eyes such a glasse of your grosse
A DETECTION OF SVNDRIE FOVLE ERROVRS LIES SCLAVNDERS CORRVPTIONS AND OTHER false dealinges touching Doctrine and other matters vttered and practized by M. Iewel in a Booke lately by him set foorth entituled A Defence of the Apologie c. By Thomas Harding Doctor of Diuinitie Psalm 4. Filij hominum vsquequo graui corde vt quid diligitis vanitatem quaeritis Mendacium O ye sonnes of menne how long wil ye be dul harted what meane ye thus to be in loue with Vanitie and to seeke after Lying RESPICITE VOLATILIA COELI ET PVLLOS CORVORVM IF LOVANII Apud Ioannem Foulerum Anno 1568. CVM PRIVILEGIO REgiae Maiestatis Priuilegio concessum est Thomaâ— Hardingo Sacra Theologia Professori vt Librum inscriptum A Detection of sundrie foule errours lies sclaunders c. per Typographum aliquem Iuratum imprimere ac impunè distrahere liceat Datum Bruxellis 24. Maij. Anno 1568. Subsig Vander A A. The Preface to the Reader AT the first comming of this Treatie to mens handes what saith one so smal a Booke for answer to so great a Volume Shal this Detection conteining litle aboue one hundred streetes of Paper matche the Defence that is almost foure hundred sheetes What meaneth D. Harding Is he not hable to confute M. Iewel Or is he loth to take paines To this I answer How hable I am to confute what so euer M. Iewel hath written not onely in his late pretensed Defence but also in his Replie or in the Apologie whereof at leaste he is thought to haue benne the penneman let it be iudged by the learned this wil I boldly saie if he haue no better meane to make his partie good then hitherto he hath vsed write he what him liste it shal be no great praise to any man to haue confuted him As it had benne smal glorie for valiant Achilles to haue beaten Thersites whom Homere describeth ready of his tongue and a coward of his handes so among the skilful Diuines he may not looke to winne great coÌ„mendation of learning who confuteth M. Iewelles writinges For certainely good Reader if thou haue but a meane insight in these Controuersies nowe so much disputed of betwixte the Protestantes and vs and wilt bestowe some good labour about the exacte trial of the thinges he hath written thou shalt easily espie the feeblenesse of his side Thou shalt finde that he perfourmeth more in shewe then in acte that commonly he maketh vp in Tale where he lacketh of Weight that with multitude of wordes he couerâ—th thâ— pâ—nurâ—â— of Râ—â—â—â—â— that with huge numbers of Doctours sainges he setteth foorth the barrennesse of substantial Prouâ—â—â— aâ— mâ—ny do their thinne Hippes with stufte Hosen and their solender Armes with bombast Sleeues This being so whereas the dewe discussion of these pointes in controuersie descendeth vnto the bottom of thinges and swimmeth not aboue vpon the fome of wordes euery man can soone conceiue howe meane learning may suffice to confute such a Writer If therefore I make profession of sufficient habilitie in this case there is no cause why I should be reprehended as one that attributeth more vnto him selfe then male seeme to stand with modestie This muche being said for proufe of habilitie some perhappes would beare what I haue to saie for my selfe that I am not lothe to take paines For he that is hable to doo a good and profitable worke and refuseth the labour to doo it seemeth to be gilty of slâ—wth True it is to refel al that M. Iewel hath written or rather gathered together out of others for in deedâ— he doth nothing els in manner but laie together heâ—pes of other mennes sayinges against the Catholique Churche and against the Catholique Religion it were greate paine By iudgement bothe of Cicero and Quintilian the labour of writing is accompted very greate And the Scripture saith Eccles 12. Faciendi plures libros nullus est finis frequénsque meditatio carnis afflictio est There is no ende of making moe Bookes and the often breaking of a mannes braines about suche studie is a greate pounishment to the bodie If any doubte hereof let him set him selfe a worke earnestly about writing in suche sorte as I speake of and he shal saie as I doo I doubte not And therefore it behoueth them that geue them selues to writing to haue not onely health but also good strength of bodie Al this M. Iewel knewe right wel And for that very cause when he sawe that smal bookes would fone be answered as it appeared by my Answer made to his Chalenge and by my Confutation of the Apologie he thought it better policie or it was so put in his head by the aduise of his brethren to goe an other waie to worke that is to saie to replie vpon me and to make his Defence with huge Volumes that either a long time should passe before an answere could be returned hoping that in the meane while his Gospel should take too deepe a roote afterward to be pluckt vp out of the Readers haâ—tâ—s by any what so euer booke that should come to their handes or that I should be wearied and worne out with the labour of answering and perhappes die before I came to the ende or that the very hugenesse of the bookes should fraie me from the enterprise of making aâ—swer In this case it seemed to mee best neither by taking vpon me to answere the whole Bookes and euery parcel of them to geue our Aduersaries the aduantage of the time not to shorten my life by immoderate paines emploied to no great profite nor by my silence and by open geuing ouer the whole as it were by fleeing out of the fielde to leaue them vnto their Triumphe but by answering the pointes of greatest importance to set forth a sufficient Defence of the truth for staying of the doubteful to confirme them in the true doctrine and thereby to geue out a cleere euidence what truthe is to be looked for in the reste of his superfluous stuffe sith he hath shewed him selfe so vntrue a dealer in the chiefe matters Thus haue I doâ—ne not yeelding to slewth but moued with good aduise noâ— as being loth to take paines and to susteine a long trauaile but as one who the state of the present time considered and the vncertaintie of thinges to come mistrusted thought it better to doo some good out of hande though it were of losse labour then by long differring whiles a larger Volume were intended to suffer to the losse of many soules so muche false doctrine to grow in credite As touching the Replie what hath benne donne to those that reade our bookes it is not vnknowen What so euer he had to bring against the Râ—â—â—â—resâ—nce against the Sacrifice of the Bodie and bloude of Christâ— against the Masse whereat the Priest receiueth the Communion without other companie receiuing sacramentally with him in the same place against the Churche Sâ—â—â—ice in a learned tongue against the anciâ—â—◠〈◊〉 of
certaine mo the like be those which I haue let passe as being partely vnnecessarie and vnprofitable partely vnmeete good houres to be bestowed about them By the handeling of these the weightier pointes it wil sufficiently appeare to al menne with what stuffe he filleth his great Bookes what smal credite he deserueth how litle pith there is to be found in his multitude of wordes how litle there is that serueth aptly to the purpose among the great heapes of testimonies that he laieth together Surely his Defence being wel examined by any man that hath skil and can iudge of these points it must needes be thought that when he saw he had not the plaine truth of his side yet with multitude of allegations he would make a shew of learning to the ignorant and trouble the answerer with confusion Euen so many Barbarous Princes as we reade in stories when they lacked a conuenient number of good and tried Souldiers haue gonne about to fraie their enemies with multitude of people who haue learned by their great ouerthrowes that oftentimes victorie is not obteined by multitude of menne In deede the Truth needeth not so many sayinges piked out of Schoolemenne of Summistes of Gloses vpon Gratian and other partes of the Canon Lawe and out of so many Canonistes of al sortes For trial of a mater to be prooued true in questions touching our beleefe one saying of the Scripture is sufficient if the expresse Scripture faile vs twoo or three Testimonies of the Ancient Fathers not being contrarie to the reste maie suffice But suche a confuse and vnorderly number of sayinges specially of suche as be not of great estimation as this man commonly allegeth of the same not one making cleerely for this purpose in moste matters what doth it els but breede a suspicion among the wise that the matter is not true for proufe whereof they be alleged But by this meane he thought to winne credit at least with the people For the people that can not iudge of these matters thinketh him best learned that hath most woordes It is knowen that when they beholde two reasoning together of any thing whereof they haue no skil commonly they commend the mainteiner of the worse cause in case he be fuller of wordes be they neuer so litle to the purpose and say in his praise that he answered the other partie to euery Quare M. Iewel vnderstanding this and making his most accompte of the people and of them that be vnlearned to whom he leaneth and by multitude of whom he and they of his side mind to stand for touching the learned they see they can winne none bestoweth great paines and charges to set out great bookes that at least in the opinion of the vnlearned and of them that haue not leisure to examine the points how substantially they are treated he maie seeme to haue done iolily and to haue acquited him selfe like a great Clerke In very deede if a man haue care howe muche he maie saie rather then how truly and feare not to vtter vntruthes he hath this aduantage ouer his aduersarie defending the truth with a conscience not to swarue from the censure of the Church that he may alwaies finde abundance of matter to vtter For as it hath of olde ben said Mendacium est multiplex veritas simplex Lying is manifolde Truth is simple Lying hath many plaites and foldinges Truth is without plaite or wrinckle Therefore it is no marueile if the Treaties of the one be narrowe and shorte of the other wide and long As for me if I prooue M. Iewel an vntrue man in so many pointes as I haue treated of I haue donne that whereby his credite must be broken His credite being broken what remaineth but that in this kinde of trade he go for a Banckroute If he be a Banckrout worthily is he to be begiled that trusteth him Some wil say perhaps it is not likely I should with so smal a booke discredit him that hath written so much But it maie please this man to remember that to saie the truth it is not M. Iewel that hath written muche He hath taken muche out of other mens bookes of his owne he hath in maÌ„ner nothing certainely very litle So that peruse his Booke who wil he shal finde that he is but a seely Translatour of other mens wordes a heaper together of al Writers sayings and that most commonly to more ostentation of tale then to the making vp of good weight So that if thinges be brought to an exact trial he shal be found no disputer no reasoner no discourser no Writer but only a gatherer together of other mennes Sentences How be it it is not the hugenesse of a booke that argueth the sufficiencie of proufes Truth is content to be set foorth with few wordes Neither yet doo I reproue him for that he allegeth what he findeth in other Writers For therby we bring credite to doubteful matters But for that alleging so much he allegeth so litle to the purpose yea in manner nothing and boldly wil I auouche it vtterly nothing for due proufe of any his new and strange doctrines being contrarie to that of ancient time hath benne beleeued in the Catholique Churche This shal seeme more probable if it be confirmed by some plaine and true examples Lette vs then examine M. Iewelles common demeanour in an example or twoo To discusse many the breuitie of a Preface wil not permitte O that he were in place to choose the example him selfe out of his whole Booke to his best aduantage that so it might euidently appeare with what weake tooles he fighteth against the truth ExaÌ„ples vvhereby it is shewed hovve vvith void and impertineÌ„t stuffe M. Ievvel filleth his great Booke Defence Pag. 163. Heb. 13. Confut. 73 b. Marke hovv M. Ievv alvvaies keepeth him selfe from coÌ„ming vnto the point in controuersie Whereas in the Apologie much is said in the commeÌ„dation of Matrimonie which no Catholique man euer discommended as that it is Holy and honorable in al sortes and states of personnes in the Apostles in the Ministers of the Church and in Bisshops and that it is an honest and lawful thing as S. Chrysostom saith for a man liuing in Matrimonie to take vpon him therewith the dignitie of a Bisshop to this I saie in my Confutation that albeit Matrimonie be holy and honorable in al and an vndefiled â—eâ— as S. Paule saith yet that it is not lawful for such personnes to marrie who haue deliberately vowed Chastitie or haue taken holy Orders This there I prooue by good and sufficient authoritie as it maie be seene in my said Confutation Now what is M. Iewels part here to proue for maintenaÌ„ce of his doctrine but that a man notwithstaÌ„ding his Vow or receiuing of holy Orders maie lawfully marrie This is the very point of the controuersie and thereto onely should he haue directed his talke If he go about any thing els it is beside the purpose But consider
greeue the harte not onely of his Aduersarie but also of any other godly man with scorneful flowtes in thinges of greatest holinesse But Christian Reader we striue not for the Garland of that game we go not about to trie maisteries of suche witte or of humaine learning Our strife is about the Truthe The waie to shewe it and proue it whiche he him selfe by open Chalenge hath offred his Doctrine to be tried by is by laying forth the plaine Scriptures the examples of the Primitiue Church the testimonies of the General Councelles and ancient Fathers Of these who hath so great stoare saith a frende of his as M. Iewel Who euer sawe the margent of any Booke so beset with cotations as his Bookes are This were a great euidence of the Truthe on his side if the matter were alwaies tried by what so euer multitude of writers sayinges But what if the number of his testimonies be quite beside the purpose Seemeth he not then very shamelesse Is he not then farre to blame so to abuse the plaine and wel meaning Readers It shal be said perhappes in his excuse He seeth the negligence of menne he coÌ„sidered that fewe or none examine our writinges And therefore he thinketh he shal seeme to saie muche though in deede nothing be said that perteineth to the pointes presently handled And where a thing is to be done and the same for want of habilitie can not be done there it seemeth good policie to geue the assaie and to make shewe as if it could be donne or were donne It is knowen how flatterers make resemblance of frendship how Hypocrites geue forthe tokens of holinesse the intended Bankroute of good truste and credite the craking Coward of stoute courage Beggers oftentimes of welth Queanes of womanly honestie and chast demeanour Right so M. Iewel feeling him selfe destitute of the Truthe and impugning the Truthe and professing to deliuer vnto the worlde a new Truthe that is to saie a heape of olde Vntruthes busily set forth of late yeres by Luther Zuinglius Caluine Beza and the reste and by Wiklefe Hus Waldenses and others their predecessours in former times laboureth with al his witte and cunning to iustifie it calling it by the name of Goddes pure worde the Gospel and the sincere Truthe that whereas he is not hable to perfourme his intent in deed yet he might seeme to make it good with wordes Touching the life of the Clergie wel maie I confesse that M. Iewel hath somewhat to saie out of certaine writers how true I knowe not whereto I shal hardly be hable to make answer in ful defence of certaine personnes But as touching the Doctrine that the Catholike Churche holdeth at this daie and hath alwaies holden I auouche boldly as by sundrie our bookes it hath now ben clearely proued and they vnderstand so much that doo thoroughly examine the reasons authorities and proufes of both partes that he is not hable to bring so muche as one sentence out of any allowed writer that may not easily be refelled And bicause he knoweth that in pointes of Doctrine the force of Truth is clearely on our side he would faine traine me from matters of Doctrine wherein he hath smal hope of victorie or of acquitting him selfe with euen hande vnto matters of life and other bye thinges whereof what so euer be beleeued therein is no great danger touching our Saluation As for example what cracke is there made in the Doctrine of the Catholique Churche if the Nominales and the Reales if the Thomistes and Scotistes dissent about pointes Logical or Metaphysical or perhappes also about the paringes of some Scholastical pointes of Diuinitie What if some light beleeuing writers haue sadly and in ernest made mention of one Ioane a woman Pope deceiued by Martinus Polonus Martinus Polonus a man of smal credite who moued with olde wiues tales first committed that fable to writing What if some later writers haue vttered their phantasies whiche they dreamed thereof vpon occasion of an olde Marble Stone hauing in it a woman with a ladde standing by her engraued What if a fewe menne that helde with certaine euil Emperours whiche could not abide to be reuoked from their vnlawful lustes by the Pope for the time being haue written and reported il of a fewe Popes What if Iohannes Casa wrote some vnchaste Italian Sonettes and Rymes in his yewth though for filthinesse not comparable to suche as be extant of Bezaes making the Apostle of the Frenche Huguenotes What if Petrus Aloisius whom Paulus Tertius the Pope loued so tenderly were a vicious man What if Iohn Diazius the Spaniard were vnnaturally murdered by Alphonsus Diazius his brother that liued at Rome What if Luther wrote against the furious vproares of the Boures in Germanie when he sawe they were sure to be ouerthrowen by the Nobilitie there whom notwithstanding he had before by Thomas Muncer his scholer stirred to take weapons against their Lordes that he might laie some good colour vpon that he had il begonne What if some haue written though not without contradiction of others that Poison was ministred in the blessed Sacrament What if a Pope shewed him selfe cruel and without pitie in suffering Frances Dandulus the Venetians Ambassadour to lie vnder his table like a dogge whiles he was at diner What if Popes haue suffered great Princes and Monarkes to kisse their feete to holde their Stiroppes to leade their horses by the Bridle Wâ—at if Gregorie the seuenth otherwise called Hildebrande whom many graue Writers reporte to haue benne a man of great vertue and an excellent good gouernour of the Church be of some Writers of that age who flattered the Emperour then being that Popes mortal enemie accompted an il man What if Pope Alexander vsed Frederike the Emperour more proudly then became a man of his calling What if Constantines Donation can not be most sufficiently proued by record of antiquitie What if certaine Emperours and other Princes for great causes haue ben remoued froÌ„ their estates by the Popes authoritie What if the Gloser vpon Gratian and certaine other Canonistes haue immoderately magnified the Pope and to extol his power haue vsed some termes vndiscretely which neuerthelesse by fauorable interpretation maie be iustified What if the Popes at certaine times either for negligence cared not or for the wrechednesse of mannes il inclination could not or for great considerations would not vtterly purge the Citie of Rome of Courtesanes and Brodel houses What if the life of many Priestes Bishoppes Cardinals yea of some Popes also hath iustly deserued to be reproued Once to conclude what if al sortes of olde Bookes being raked out of dusty corners Schoolemen Summistes Glosers vaine Chroniclers Legendes writers of Dreames and Visions and suche Riffe raffe and menne for the purpose being set a worke to peruse them in the same be founde a fewe fonde pointes of Doctrine certaine loose Conclusions many seely Tales not worth the telling and some lewd faultes of
of the ministration of them I vtterly condemne That I saie Their Faith is no Faith it is the sixthe lye I confesse it to be a Faith touching the pointes wherein they agree with the catholique Churche In the other pointes I saie it is no Faith but errour and heresie Albeit Arius the heretique had a Faith Eunomius had a Faith Nestorius Euctyhes Sabellius Photinus Apollinaris briefly al Heretiques had their Faithes but al were false Faithes as much to say no Faithes but as the Latines cal it Perfidia M. Iewel for some shewe of vpright dealing hath filled his margent in this place with cotations as thicke as they maie stand one by an other directing the reader to my bookes If it shal please the reader diligently to peruse the places bothe in my Confutation and in my Reioinder he shal trie him to be as he is euery where a false and a shamelesse lyer As for the Quenes Lawes The Quenes Lavves and Parlamentes and Parlamentes for change of Religion and Faith what haue I to doo with them whether they be lawes and Parlamentes or no Be they as they be It is not my profession to discusse that matter If there be any that doubte thereof let the learned men of lawe be demaunded their opinion If they wil not or if they be loth to speake what they thinke let the questiō be differred vntil the time come that M. Iewel and I shal be placed where we shal no more contende about the authoritie of mannes lawes 2. Cor. 5. but shal ech of vs receiue according to that we haue done in our bodies that is to saie accordingly as we haue in our doctrine and life either kept or broken Goddes lawes The age to come perhappes shal be hable to saie more therein then this present time It is an olde said sawe Filia temporis Veritas Truth is the daughter of time Let vs not trouble our selues about this odious question M. Iewel I praie you but referre it ouer to the time to come Yet bicause in your pretensed Defence ye beare menne in hande that I seeme to saie Defence pag. 595. that the Parlament holden in the firste yere of the Quenes Maiesties reigne was no Parlament for that the Bishops refused to agree vnto the statute made for change of Religion I wil here truely laie forth my wordes in whiche you auouche I seeme so to saie that it maie appeare to al menne what a quareller you are These be my wordes Confut. fol. 276 a. Where haue ye treated of your matters That matter hath benne treated saie ye in open Parlament with long consultation and before a notable Synode and Conuocation First in what Parlament Meane ye the first of our Soueraine Lady Quene Elizabeth or any of those of king Edward the sixth his daies c. If ye meane as by reason you must the Parlamentes of these later daies the first of al did make most for you and yet how open was it for you Had ye any place at al in it Were ye admitted within the doores Or had ye any thing to doo in that assemblie Consider then with what Consultation your purposes were concluded Did they tarie manie monethes about it Had they Bishoppes Had they Diuines and the most learned to reason too and fro with al libertie Was the authoritie of the Vniuersal Churche of Christe and the doctrine of the Auncient Fathers considered Ye saie in Latine Plenis Comitijs that is in the ful and whole assemblie as though none at al had there resisted but euery man had yelded to your matters What saie ye then of the Spiritual Lordes a great parte of the Parlament and without al doubte the parte whiche must be chiefly and onely regarded when the Question is of Religion How many of them gaue their voice to your Gospel Yea whiche of them al did not resiste it c. As of the Spiritual Lordes ye had none at al so of the Temporal ye had not al and so had ye also in the lower house very many and wel learned that spake against you * These vvordes folowing M. Ievvel nipte avvaie in the Defence And mo would had conscience benne as free as auctoritie was dredful And yet cal ye this a ful Parlament and a Parlament whiche had al his partes wholy fauouring you * Vpon these wordes M. Iewel maketh muche a doo in the Defence as if I had denied that Parlament to be a Parlament for lacke of the Bishoppes consent But whether I said so or no let these mine owne wordes before rehersed be the trial Touching the matter it selfe he saith how truely I doubt that in the Parlamentes of England for any Statute to be lawfully enacted the consent of Archebishoppes and Bishoppes hath not ben thought necessarie Defence pag. 595. and that matters haue passed only by the more parte of voices yea although these be his very wordes al Archebishoppes Defence Ibidem and Bishops were neuer so earnestly bent against it And yet he saith further whereat I marueil that Statutes so passing onely by the voices of the Lordes Temporal though the Lordes Spiritual dissente neuer so muche haue neuerthelesse alwaies ben confirmed enacted and published vnder the names of the Lordes Spiritual and Temporal If it be so then I perceiue it faieth with the lordes Spiritual as it faieth with me For as M. Iewel hath published and said many thinges vnder my name that I neuer said nor meant to thintent to discredite me if any happily be so simple that wil beleeue him So by this tale lawes be published vnder the name of Archebishoppes and Bishoppes who are the Lordes Spiritual vnto whiche they neuer gaue their assent but contrary wise earnestly dissented What this is to be called in the Statutes of the Realme I knowe not but in the writinges of priuate menne suche as Maister Iewels and myne are this practise of fathering wordes and sayinges vpon a man whiche he neuer said nor wrote is accompted vnlawful and false and commonly is named forgerie falsifying and belying the chiefe flowers wherewith M. Iewel alwaies decketh his garland He referreth me for further proufe of this matter to the Recordes of a Parlament holden by king Edward the first at S. Edmundes Burie the Archebishoppes and Bishopes being as he saith quite shutte forthe Anno Domini 1296 where he telleth me it is written thus Habito Rex cum suis Baronibus Parlamento Clero excluso statutum est c. The king keeping the Parlament with his Barons the Clergie that is to saie the Archebishoppes and Bishoppes being shutte forth it was enacted c. Perhappes the inferiour Clergie was excluded who as I haue heard Lawiers saie in olde time came to the Parlamentes and had their place in the lower house But that the Archebishoppes and Bishoppes were excluded thereof I doubte Item saith he in the time of king Henrie the thirde a statute touching the legitimation of
charged and of whiche he hath not yet discharged him selfe The 4. Chapter AFter his heape of sharpe wordes partly forged by him selfe partly called out of my writinges and laid together as it were in a Table whiche seeme to him and to his brethren so muche irksome how muche their conscience is gilty he setteth forth in an other Table as it were certaine Vntruthes to the number of 31. whiche he founde among many moe noted against him in my first Reioinder and in my Confutation of the Apologie This Table he calleth M. Ievvels intent in setting forth the Vievv of his Vntruthes A Viewe of Vntruthes His intent and meaning is by the View of these fewe Vntruthes which he hath chosen out as the leaste among the whole number to purchase him selfe a Defence or at least waie some excuse for the reste For faine would he al menne to be persuaded that the reste noted by me and by others who haue confuted his errours and detected his manifold falshoode are of no greater weight then these are What and how great the reste are they maie see who liste to reade our bookes in which they be truly set forth How vnhable he is to iustifie them it shal appeare by that he hath said in the Viewe For if he be not hable to discharge him selfe of these one and thirty the leaste how shal he be hable to acquitte him self of a thousand and moe of greater weight scoared vp against him by those that haue written but vpoÌ„ fiue of his six and twentie Articles First 〈◊〉 layeth forth .15 Vntruthes which among many moe in my Râ—ioinder I noted against him out of his Replie to the first Article The first nyne he is driuen to acknowledge For he hath said nothing in their defence If he wil saie they be but smal Vntruthes and therefore not worthy of any thing to be said of them it may be replied they are too great to be vttered so neare together M. Ievvel is rife of Vntruthes in the very beginniÌ„g of his Replie For the first six Vntruthes be within the compasse of 12. lines in the beginning of his Replie It were strange that six great Vntruthes should be vttered within so fewe lines in the beginning of a booke For them that can not defende a matter but with great lyes it is the beste policie to beginne with smaller lyes For elles they should marre altogether This circumstance considered Vntruthes must needes seeme bothe many and great Briefly the whole fifteen Vntruthes noted out of the Replie be founde in his first Diuision that is to saie within lesse then thrise fifteen lines It were very il lucke if they should be proued al to be great and weightie Vntruthes in the first entrie of the booke and that within so litle space There was neuer any Writer so vaine or false The. 10. Vntruth Beno and VspergeÌ„sis parcially holding with the Emperour not to be beleeued against Gregorie the. 7. that sowed Vntruthes so thicke specially in the beginning of a Treatie The first nyne then being confessed to be Vntruthes vndischargeable let vs see how substancially he dischargeth him selfe of the six other It is reported saith he of Pope Hildebrand so he calleth Gregorie the seuenth that he wrought Necromancie and Sorcerie This noted I for an Vntruth saying it is not reported by any graue and true writer but by them that flattered the Emperour of that time To this he maketh a Replie This storie saith he is largely set out by Beno and Vrspergensis These be they whose witnesse I refused before as being the Emperours flatterers and bearing malice to the Pope and therfore ouer parcial to beare credite in that case Gregorie the seuenth How farre this worthy man Gregorie the seuenth was from exercising Necromancie or Sorcerie and from other vices it is largely declared by the best writers of stories of that age namely by Marianus Scotus by Lambertus Schafuaburgensis and Leo Hostiensis and specially by Otho Frisingensis and of late by Platina and Onuphrius Panuinus Furthermore Beno can not beare great credite with vs as he that is condemned by Ecclesiastical censure Vrspergensis set out by MelanchthoÌ„ only The. 11. Vntruth As for Vrspergensis he is worthily suspected to be corrupted by your felowes of Germanie among whom he was set out in printe by Philip MelanchthoÌ„ and not els Item Henrie the Emperour was poisoned in the Communion breade saith M. Iewel Vntruthe say I He was not poisoned but died otherwise For proufe he replieth and allegeth Vrspergensis Likewise Auentinus and besides Baptista Ignatius the writer of Supplementum Chronicorum Rauisius Textor the GraÌ„marian and Carion writers of our time and some of them of litle credite Neither in suche a case maketh the nuÌ„ber of writers any ArgumeÌ„t of truthe For the afterwriters being deceiued by the Vntruthe of the first writer be they neuer so many in number caÌ„not make true Henrie of Luxemburg hovv he dyed Lib. 8. that whiche was vntruly reported at the first Touching the Death of this Emperour who was Henrie of Luxemburg Paulus Aemylius a graue and a learned man who hath examined this mater to the vttermost writeth that he died of a sickenes whiche he fel into at Bonconuento in the territorie of Siena in Tuskane being come thither from Pisa The same writeth * In scholijs in Platinam Onophrius That he should be poisoned in receiuing the Sacrament by meanes of a Dominican Frier Cornelius Cornepolita seemeth to esteme it for a fable or to make the best of it for a matter of a heare saie By that which * In Chronographia The .12 Vntruth Victors Death Nauclerus writeth therof it appeareth to be no better then a fained tale Item Pope victor was poisoned in the Chalice saith M. Iewel This noted I for an Vntruth and said he died otherwise To this he replieth and for his saying allegeth Martinus Polonus that vaine fabler the first author of the fabulous Popedom of Pope Ioan the woman he nameth certaine other of our age some being as very enemies to the Catholike Church as he him selfe is namely Anselmus Rid Anselmus Rid. a ProtestaÌ„t of Berna whom we beleue in such a mater no more then we beleue M. Iewel For such menne be very ready to set out in bookes any thing wherby the estimatioÌ„ of our diuine Mysteries may be impaired in the iudgement of light heads be it neuer so vntrue Concerning Pope Victors death VinceÌ„tius Vincentius BellouaceÌ„ as good an Author as Martinus Polonus and a man of muche greater learning writeth that he died of a Dysenterie and so Platina reciteth In these three Vntruthes M. Iewel hath some colour of a defence bicause the writers of the Stories doo varie And he liketh that report best that is most fabulous and vaine and teÌ„deth to the coÌ„tempt of the Pope and of the blessed Sacrament Suche stuffe is precious in his sight Thus it is cleare that he
the reprehension of my vehement speache doo fal into the selfe same Vehemencie Whose wordes are these M. Iewel M. Ievv blameth my vehemencie of speache him selfe being also no lesse vehement Pag. 94. Beholde your owne wordes so many so vaine so bitter so firie so furious al together in one place Are not these your owne wordes Are not these as vehemeÌ„t as you could deuise Wil you finde faulte with me for that you vse your selfe If vehement speache be to be vsed when the matter requireth why blame you me If not why doo you so often vse it Whether you and Luther doo vse it iustly for the zeale of Goddes glorie aske that of them that wrote the Confession of the Churche of Zurich Your owne frendes the Ministers of that congregation doo set forth Luther for his outragious and filthy railing against them in his colours and speake of him as of a very vile felow and paie him home againe with as good as he brought Reade the booke and ye shal finde it to be true Howbeit I could sende you to many other bookes of your brethren fraught with muche more vile stuffe of railing then that litle booke conteineth with al whiche you are better acquainted then I am The Confutation of the Apologie The seconde parte the 2. Chapter Confut fo 44. b Againe the name of Head is attributed to Christe aâ— other waie bicause Christe is head of the Churche by his owne power and authoritie Menne be called heades in as muche as they be in steede of Christ and vnder Christ after whiche meaning S. Paule saith to the Corinthians for if I forgaue any thing to whom I forgaue it 2. Cor. 2. for your sakes forgaue I it in persona Christi in the person of Christe And in an other place 2. Cor. 5. We are Ambassadours in the steede of Christe euen as though God did exhorte you through vs. To conclude in few 〈◊〉 vvhat sense Christe is named the Head of the Churche and in vvhat sense the Pope is so named according to inwarde influence of grace into euery faithful member Christe onely is the head of the Churche according to outward gouerning the Pope vnder Christ and in steede of Christ is head of the same Iewel Pag. 94. To the matter ye saie that touching the influence of grace Christe onely is the head of the Churche but touching direction and gouernemeÌ„t the Pope only as the head Al this is but your ovvne tale M. Harding ye speake it onely of your selfe other authoritie of Scripture or Doctour you bringe vs none Harding Dogge eloquence proued no vnwoonted terme and how the Pope is Head of the Churche To the mater ye saie And truly wel said of you The .7 Chapt For hitherto you haue not directed your talke to the mater but to the person of your Aduersarie with whom you shew your selfe greuously offended for calling the Currish and snarling vtterance of Luther Dogge eloquence And whereas you would faine draw the same to the preiudice of my modestie I trust you that are so great a Rhetorician and so wel seene in poetes Fables wil iudge so muche the better of me for so muche as Quintilian that modeste and graue Oratour and Ouide also no Poete Satyrical thought suche phrase of speache not vnmeete for the countenance of modestie and humanitie that they bare in the worlde For if you remember Canina Eloquentia QuintiliaÌ„ lib. 12. c. 9 Ouid. in Ibin is Quintilians worde calle it dogge eloquence dogged eloqueÌ„ce or dogges eloquence or how soeuer otherwise it please you to terme it And Ouid saith Latrâ—◠〈◊〉 in toro verba canina foro If for the vse of this auncient terme I seeme to passe the boundes of modestie specially attributing it vnto Luther whose heretical and Deuilish vtterance is coÌ„monly in deede farre worse then the barking of any Dogge or the hissing of any Serpent what wil you saie of the Scolding of your hote brother M. Calfhil But now that after muche idle and impertinent talke you are come to the mater what saie you that is worth the hearing M. Iewels foule falsifying of my vvordes Thus you saie Ye saie that touching the influence of Grace Christe onely is the Head of the Churche I graunt I say so in deede Go ye forth and make no lye but touching direction and gouernement the Pope only is the Head Yea sir Where saie I so You should haue caused your printer to haue falsified that senteÌ„ce of mine that at your owne pleasure the simplest of your owne poore Fauourers who take al for the Gospel that you saie or write might not in your owne booke espie your shamelesse lying For euen there notwithstanding your coÌ„mon falsifyinges other where 's and also there they maie finde my saying otherwise reported It is an euident argument that myne owne wordes were to true for you to confute sith that you thought it necessarie least you should seme ouercome to alter and change them for other wordes of your own which being false to the vnlearned reader I might seeme to speake fondly and besides al truth For how is it likely I should saie that touching Direction and gouernement the Pope only is the Head Your fetche was to bring your vnlearned fauourers by whom you are magnified to beleeue that from the Direction and gouernement of the Church I excluded Christe and the holy Ghoste the spirite of truth Which God forbid I should doo Now the true wordes of my Confutation in this place are these Defence Pag. 92. whiche the Reader maie see also in the booke of your Defence although very much mangled and falsified of set purpose to thintent the force of truth by me opened should not be seene as by view of my booke it maie clearely appeare Where thus I saie For Head and Spouse alone he is of his kingdom in one respecte not alone in an other respect * Confut. fol. 44. a. left out by M. Ie. For a cleare declaration whereof it is to be vnderstanded that being of a Head maie be considered after two waies The being of a Head considered tvvo vvaies either according to the inward influence so as the vertue and power of mouing and of sense is deriued from the head vnto the other members or according to outward gouernment right so as a man is directed in his outward actes according to the sight and other senses AccordiÌ„g to it ward influence of grace Christe onely is Head of the Churche In respect of outvvard gouernement the name of Head is attributed to others beside Christe which haue their roote in the head Now the inwarde influence of grace is not of any other but of Christe only Bicause Christes manhood onely hath power to iustifie for that the same only is ioyned personally to the Godhead * According to this inward influence of Grace Christ properly and only is Head of his mystical body the Church But as touching
morbum in ipso capite componit Ecclesiae in ipso vertice componit membrorum omnium sanitatem in Petroscilicet illo qui dixerat etiam si oportuerit me mori tecum non te negabo He cureth the sickenes of the whole body in Peter the very head it selfe of the Churche and in the very crowne of the head it selfe he setteth in order the health of al the members I meane in the selfe same Peter that had said Although I were driuen to die with thee Mat. 26. I wil neuer denie thee Iewel And the very Ordinarie Glose geueth these vvordes to S. Paule Non didici ab aliis tanquam à maioribus sed contuli cum illis Gloss Galat 2. tanquam cum amicis paribus I learned not of Peter and others as of my betters but I had conference with them as with my Equalles and frendes Harding Difference betwen learning and conferring together Had M. Iewel learnedly considered the difference The 24. Chapt. that is bewixt learning and conferring he would neuer for very shame haue alleged thâ—s place of the Ordinarie Glose In learning the teacher is of greater dignitie In conferring what soeuer the personnes otherwise are either of one dignitie or of diuers as touching the act of conference they make them selues equal as doth the King with his Counsel when they laie their heades together to boult out one mater Yet no man maie thereof reason that there is no difference of state betwixte the King and them of his Counsel or that euery of the Counsel is of equal state one with an other What neede S. Paule had of S. Peter to haue matters decided by his authoritie Actâ— 15. it appeareth in the Actes of the Apostles when he with Barnabas and others were sent from Antioche to Hierusalem to know whether the Gentiles were bounde to be circumcised But M. Iewels happe is alwaies to fal vpon places that bringe him smal worship or aduantage of his cause The Apologie Part. 2. Cap 3. Diui. 4. pag. 107. It vvas said indifferently to them al feede ye c. Confutation Wee denie that it was said indifferently to them al Feede ye Iohan. 21. yea or that it was said at al Feede ye To Peter and none elles was it said Feede my lambes Feede my sheepe .. Which worde of Feeding so singularly spoken to Peter in the presence of the other Apostles proueth that it was not indifferently said to al Feede ye Iewel Pag. 107. It forceth not greatly vvhat M. Hardinge denie or graunte hauing neither reason nor autoritie but onely his ovvne But if povver vvere not geuen indifferently to al the Apostles tel vs then vvherein is the â—ddes VVhat had Peter more VVhat had the others lesse Or vvhat olde Doctour or learned Father euer savv this difference Harding M. Iewel is tolde where he maie finde his demaundes answered and are also here answered in parte Though we tel you this The 25. Chapt. and proue it neuer so plainely yet stil wil you wrangle The Fathers haue infinite places for Peters preeminence aboue the rest as I haue partely here but more largely in my Answer Ansvver to your Chalenge shewed Article 4. Yea the selfe same places of the Fathers that you allege to proue the contrarie apparently within few lines after doo vtterly and in plaine wordes so refute you as your selfe knowe that for very shame you durst not to allege any whole place of certaine the olde Fathers but Iewishly lefte them circumcised as I haue shewed before in sundry allegations of S. Hierome of S. Chrysostome of S. Augustine and of others wherby the Reader hath a viewe and maie conceiue what you haue done in the reste And yet suche is your impudencie as though you walked inuisible and none were hable to detecte your false dealing you cal importunately vpon vs to shewe the oddes and to tel you what authoritie Peter had more then the reste And to declare what olde Father euer sawe any suche difference If it maie please you to reade the fourth Article of my Answere to your Chalenge M.D. Saunders booke entitled the Rocke of the Churche and M. Stapletons Returne of your Vntruthes vpon you in iustificatioÌ„ of Vntruthes which you impute vnto mee there maie you haue moe olde Fathers then ye haue yet or euer shal be hable to make reasonable answer vnto A most plain and euident testimonie of the Popes Primacie ouer al the vvorlde Chrysost homil 1. de poeniteÌ„tia In the meane time tel vs what S. Chrysostome meant when he said thus in his first homilie de poenitentia Ecclesiae primatum gubernationemque Petro per vniuersum mundum Christus tradidit Christ hath deliuered vnto Peter the primacie and gouernment of the Churche through the whole worlde When ye can shewe vs suche a plaine testimonie out of any Father that S. Peter had not the primacie and supreme gouernment deliuered vnto him by Christ you shal seeme to saie somewhat Iewel Pag. 107. 108. Christe saide equally vnto them al. Receiue the holy Ghoste whose sinnes ye forgeue they are forgeuen Goe into the whole worlde Preache the Gospel to euery creature These vvordes perceiue equally vnto al. Peter had no more the holy Ghoste no more povver to forgeeue sinnes no more commission to go into the vvhole vvorlde no more authoritie to preache the Gospel then others had Harding Why are you so copious in bye maters wherein I neuer striued with you and so barrein in the principal mater that lieth in controuersie betwixte vs Equal power was graunted to the Apostles to gather the Church this was neuer denied you But their power was not equal to rule the Church after that it was gathered from euery coaste of the worlde The which point you disproue not Iewel Pag. 108. M. Harding saithe To the Reste of the Apostles it vvas not said at al Iohan. 21. Feede ye To Peter and to none els vvas it said Feede my Lambes Feede my sheepe Yet Christe him selfe saithe Quod vni dico omnibus dico Marc. 13. That I saie to one I saie to al. Harding M. Iewel fouly falsifieth the worde of Christ him selfe What M. Iewel wil ye neuer leaue your falsifying The 26. Chapt. And are ye not a fraide to corrupte the holy Worde of the Sonne of God him selfe Is our cause so good and substantial that ye can make no shewe of truthe a-against it but by foule corruption of the Scripture Where is this written Be ye not a fraide for your aduantage to deceiue the worlde with Scripture of your owne making And were it true that S. Marke had so written how can you wreste it to your purpose Thus it is good Reader Our Sauiour gaue a general warning not onely to the Apostles but to al menne beleeuing in him to be watcheful against our Lordes comming which shal be suddeinely at suche time as they know not and therefore said Vigilate
Againe there a litle after They that returne from Schisme and Heresie if they were in holy Orders before they became schismatikes they do not receiue holy Orders againe but either they do minister that which they did minister if the profite of the Churche do so require or if they minister not yet do they beare the SacrameÌ„t of their holy Orders stil and therefore the handes are not laid vpon them among the laie sorte Hitherto S. Augustine What hath M. Iewel to saie vnto this If S. Augustine saie that an Heretique or a Schismatique doth not lose the Priestehoode that he had lawfully before he fel into Schisme or Heresie shal M. Iewel control him with his newe Diuinitie and saie vnto him no sir it is not so For if a Bishop be negligent and doo not his duetie I saie he loseth his Order or Bisshophoode and is no more a Bishoppe M. Iewels il lucke is that whereas he readeth many Fathers or some others for him and heapeth a number of their sayinges together to fil vp a great booke neuer a one can be found that when any mater commeth to trial maketh clearely for his side No marueil For truth can neuer be made to serue against truth Iewel Pag. 117. As for VVicklefe he expoundeth plainely his ovvne meaning c. Harding Hus mistaken for Wicklefe a Canon of the Councel of Valentia truly expounded The 38. Chapt. Article 22. The expositorie Article that you allege is one of Iohn Hus his Articles and not Wicklefes condemned in the fifteenth session of the Councel of CoÌ„stance Therefore it is false that Wicklefe euer expounded his meaning in that Article and much more is it false that he did it according to mine owne construction Hus mistakeÌ„ by M. Ievvel for VViklefe as you say Thus you reherse and translate Papa vel praelatus malus et praescitus est equiuocè pastor verè fur Latro. The Pope or any other wicked prelate in doubteful speache is a Pastour but in very deede he is a theese and Latro a robber Here with M. Iewel Latro is a murtherer This is Iohn Hus his article not Iohn Wicklefes This needed not to haue ben marked but that M. Iewel is so precise and so watcheful to prie for the leaste escapes that any of vs maketh How be it both were Heretiques both Hus and Wicklefe and therefore we maie beare the better with M. Iewel if he mistake the one for the other Hus for Wicklefe and thinke that Wiclefe had more zeale of the house of God more learning more knowledge then al the Bishops of that age for so he iudgeth yet if he spake or meant more then truth maie beare M. Iewel who dareth not plainely and flatly either to allowe or to condemne the man but with Iffes and Andes mindeth not to defende him Yet he doth the best he can to defende him by a Canon of the Councel of Valentia in Fraunce not truely vnderstanded but altogether misconstrued Whiche Canon if it were truely translated that is to saie otherwise then M. Iewel hath translated it it should appeare he were fully answered and confuted A canon of the Councel of Valentia in FraÌ„ce truly expounded that vvas corrupted by M Iâ—wâ—ls false translation Concil Valentin Cap. 4. ConcilioruÌ„ Tom. 1. pag. 414. The canon truely translated is thus Who so euer sub ordinatione at the time that order is geuen either of deaconship or of Priesthod or of Bishophod shal saie they are defiled with mortal sinne they are to be remoued from the foresaid not orders as M. Iewel falsely translateth but ordinations that is orderinges or geuing of Orders for so the worde signifieth the very acte of ordering not the Orders them selfe whereby is meant that they ought to be remoued and bid to departe without Orders if one I saie would thus translate the Canon as the praeposition sub importeth M. Iewel were put quite besides his purpose and Wiklef shoulde remaine vndefended and giltie of heresie as he was before M. Iewel tooke in hande to defende him Remember M. Iewel Ordination is the acte of geuing Order Order it selfe is the effecte of Ordination or ordering By this Councel of Valentia they that confessed them selues defiled with mortal sinne were remoued not ab ordinibus from Orders for they had not yet receiued them but ab ordinationibus from the geuing of Orders vnto whiche they came for Orders Vse truthe M. Iewel deceiue not your vnlearned Reader with false translations Wicklefe is charged with this Article in the Councel of CoÌ„stance A king is not a king and a Queene is not a Queene by VVicklef if they be in deadly sinne A king being in deadly sinne is a king by vviklef Huss and M. Ieâ—vel aequâ—uoce in doubteful speache only and by a vvorde of doubt meaning as a painted man is a man Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in peccato mortali None is a temporal Lord none is a prelate none is a Bishop so long as he is in deadly sinne Beholde Reader how M. Iewel in Wicklefes defence bringeth in Wicklefe expounding his owne meaning or rather Hus for Wicklefe The Pope saith Hus whom M. Iewel taketh for Wicklefe or any other wicked prelate in doubteful speache is a Pastour but in very deede he is a theefe and a murtherer What then saith Maister Wicklefe of a king or a queene that is in deadly sinne by the plaine expositioÌ„ of his owne meaning What answereth M. Iewel in this case for his frende Wicklefe Mary whereas Wicklefe saith If a king or a Queene be in deadly sinne then neither is he a king nor shee a Queene M Iewel coÌ„meth in with Hus and thus expoundeth the meaning of Wicklefe he is a King and she is a Queene but how In doubteful speache onely he meaneth in name onely In very deede both he and she are either of them a theefe and a murtherer For so he must saie of the Princes as he saith of the Prieste and Bishop that he is a King or she a Queene by a worde of double meaning as for example vnsauery salte is called salte or as the Prophetes of Baal are called Prophetes or as a painted manne is called a man or as S. Gregorie saith of the Priest by M. Iewels reporte let him or her be called a King or a Queene though in deed he be no Kinge and she no Queene but a theefe c. If a King or a Queene being in deadly sinne be no King nor Queene in deede as M. Iewel with Hus must saie and Wicklefe doth saie what honestie hath he donne Wicklefe in so making him to expound plainely his meaning to deliuer him from the obloquie of his Heresie and from the hatred of Princes when the exposition is as lewde and of as great force as the Heresie is it selfe that I laid bothe to Wicklefes charge and his at the firste Thoughe with your Rhetorique
shal succede him that is your accursed addition but he saith non parcentes gregi which you haue left out Those rauening Wolues shal not spare the flocke but shal diuide the faith and scatter the flocke as you haue doone For where one Faith was you haue made two and where charitie was you haue set debate Now whereas S. Paule farther saith men speaking peruerse things shal spring out of them selues he saith not Act. 20. they shal spring by Succession That is your foule corruption of the holy texte He addeth also other wordes immediatly whiche you haue leaft out as vtterly betraying your foule Heresies It foloweth in the selfe same clause and sentence vt abducant discipulos post se There shal spring out of your selues men speaking peruerse thinges Act. 20. to leade away scholars after them Vt abducant to lead away Whence shal they lead them from the Apostles and from their Successours and from the flocke wherein they liued before Whither shal they lead them Post se after them selues That is to saie they shal not keepe the former Succession of Doctrine and order teaching as their Fathers haue donne but they shal departe from that Succession and shal leade and cari◅ others awaie with them and become peruerse Teachers in suche sorte that they shal haue Disciples of their owne who shal beare their name as Luther hath the Lutherans Zuinglius hath the Zuinglians Caluine hath the Caluinistes after him who goe away from their forefathers Doctrine and them selues set vp a new beleefe comming in Christes name and pretending his Gospel but yet not teaching his truth bicause thei leaue the Succession where only his truth was and is taught For it onely doth by open practise shewe and witnesse the true meaning of his worde vvho be the leaders avvay of the Flock 3. Reg. 12. This this M. Iewel is the Succession that we claime by Tu abducis you leade awaye the flocke from their auncient Pastours and shepeherds we tarie stil behinde in the old Succession of Peters Chaier Ieroboam went out from Moyses Chaier and caried ten tribes after him so did Arius and so did Luther so did Caluine so doo you The Prophetes taried behind with Moyses Chaier in so muche that good Simeon Anna Zacharias Elizabeth and our Ladie the Blessed Virgin Marie chose rather to dwel in Gods Church with the vnclean scribes and Pharisees then to goe out ofter the Samaritans and to seeke a cleaner Congregation either in the mount Garizim or in Egipte in the Scismatical Temple of Onias Euen so doo we abyde stil in the olde Church neither are we greatly moued with your mockes and scoffes when ye cal it the Mumpsimus Churche Yea we abide contented with the olde translation of the Bible with the olde Portuises and Masse bookes yea perhappes also emong some Scribes and Pharisees But yet there by Goddes grace we wil looke for our Lords glorious comming who commended our forefathers to the special charge of Peter Ioan. 21. and therein vs to his Successours We are within the Fold ye without we are Sheepe ye are Goates we keepe in al that we can ye drawe away and pul out al that ye can we sprang not out of you but ye out of vs. If S. Paule had spoken of his Successours in that place he would not haue said Vt abducant to leade away scholars For when some be leadde away some others tarie behind Now the Successour if he abide not behinde he is no Successour Nestorius a skatterer of the flock but a leader away In so muche that Nestorius being Bishop of Constantinople yet when he taught otherwise of Christes Person then his Predecessours had donne he was then no Successour of Alexander Paulus and S. Chrysostome because he disalowed those his Predecessours but he was a scatterer of the flocke and a leader away of Scholars after him selfe and not after his Predecessours Thinke you that any true beleeuing man taketh you M. Iewel for one of the Successours of S. Augustine our Apostle M. Ievv no Successour of our Apostle S. Augustine who conuerted our English nation from Idolotrie to Christe Are you his Successour Why you lead men away from him and persuade in this your booke that he was not our true Apostle nor any true teacher of Gods worde but a cruel and blouddy man 1. Ioan. 2. and proud aboue measure Away Woolfe and deuoure thy Goates abroade thou camest from vs but thou wert not of vs for if thou hadst benne of vs thou hadst remained stil with vs. I exhorte al Christian menne to returne vnto the Succession of Peter and of al other faithful menne who abide in the same faith with him Iewel S. Hierome saith they be not alvvayes the children of holy men that by Succession haue the places of holy men Dist 40. Non est Harding Double holines There is a double holinesse one of life an other of state or office Concerning life it is true that many times euil men succede in the place of good And so meant your Author M. Ievv falsifieth S. Hierome Dist 40. Nō est facile as his owne wordes whiche in the same sentence you haue leafte out doo witnesse For thus he saith Non Sanctorum filij sunt qui tenent loca sanctorum sed qui exercent opera eorum They are not the children of the Saintes who holde the places of the Saintes but those who practise the workes of the Saintes In this sentence you haue leaste out the ende and haue caste in of your owne the worde alwayes and these two wordes by Succession And when al is done the sentence is not S. Hieromes but Gratians owne added to the former woordes of S. Hierome Howbeit they are somewhat altered Hierom. epist ad Heliodorū For thus saith S. Hierome Non est facile stare loco Pauli tenere gradum Petri iam cum Christo regnantium It is not an easy thing to stande in the place of Paule and to holde the Degree of Peter now raigning with Christe of whiche ye can take no aduantage against Succession whereof we treat Holinesse of degree and office Ioan 1. But concerning holinesse of Degree state and office there is the same holinesse in the Successour which was in the Predecessour For it is Christe that baptizeth and that in like ministeries worketh by the euil man as wel as by the good so long as the Succession is not broken of and forsaken For if that be once done he that maketh the breache is not properly a Successour in truthe but a beginner of errour As for example Who wil say that Cranmer was the Successour of S. Thomas Cranmer no Sucessour of S. Thomas the blessed Martyr or of Bishop Warrham in the Chaier of Cantorburie I trowe he him selfe would not say it if he were a liue seing he succeded not in their Faith and Doctrine Iewel Pag. 127. Not vvithstanding the
had deceiued the Pope by false suggestion Therefore if a true suggestion had ben made to the Pope his Decree should haue preuailed although it extended it selfe as farre as Spaine and that for the restitution of a Bishop against him that was newly elected a Bishop by the consent of al the Bishops of Spaine Therefore the Popes authoritie ouer other Bisshops grounding it selfe vpon a right and true information was acknowledged in the Primitiue Church Iewel Pag. 129. 130. Dist 64. cap. fin In dede touching euery Metropolitanes seueral Iurisdiction Gratianus noteth thus Illud generaliter clarum est quod si quis praeter sententiam Metropolitani fuerit factus Episcopus hunc magna synodus definiuit Episcopum esse non oportere This is generally cleare that if any man be made Bishop vvithout the consent of his Metropolitane the great councel of Nice hath decreed that such a one may not be Bishop So likevvise saith Socrates of the Bishop of Constantinople VVithout the consent of the Bishop of Constantinople let no man be chosen Bishop Socrates Lib. 7. cap. 28. Here is a right reserued specially to the Bishop of Constantinople and to euery Metropolitane vvithin his ovvne prouince But of the Bishop of Romes vniuersal right of Confirmation vve heare nothing Harding You reason vpon authoritie negatiuely as though if the Councel of Nice and Socrates speake not of that confirmation whiche belongeth to the Bishop of Rome therefore there could be no suche But it appeareth by S. Cyprian in diuers Epistles that it was the custome in his time for a Bishop newly made to sende letters to al the other Bishops intimating his Election Now as those letters came first and specially to the Bishop of Rome Cyprian Lib. 1. Epist 3. as fitting by S. Cyprians owne confession in the principal chaire and succeding S. Peter euen so if the Pope for iuste causes had not receiued the letters and communion of the said newe Bishop he then for lacke of the Popes confirmation could not rightly haue enioyed his Bishoprike as it appeareth by many examples which would require a discourse ouer long for this place nor very needeful sith the confirmation of Bishoppes is not our principal matter but only the Succession Yet M. Iewel who remēbreth of olde so much Canon Lawe may cal to his remembrance what I haue said in my Answer to the Articles of his Chalenge In my Ansvver Artic. 4. where I haue shewed that the Pope had three Legates in the Easte a In epist. Simplicij ad Acatiū one in Constantinople b In epist Bonifacij ad Eulalium the other in Alexandria c Leo epistol 82. the third in Thessalonica Whereunto M. Iewel hath replied nothing as also M. Stapleton hath noted in the Returne Now if those Bishops being not only Metropolitanes but also two of them Patriarkes were neuer the lesse the Popes Legates it is easy to see how the Popes confirmation was geuen to the Bishoppes generally vnder those Primates seing the Primates them selues were confirmed by him or els they were not accompted lawful Bishops for lacke of his cōfirmation Zonaras in vita Constātis nepot Heraclij as it is euident in the exāple of Pyrrhus the Bishop of Cōstantinople who both was put into his bishoprike by the bishop of Rome when he had persuaded him that he was Catholike and againe was put out by his autoritie when it was perceiued that he had dissembled Iewel Pag. 130. Neither doth M. Hardinges counterfeite Anacletus claime al the Bisshops thorough the vvorld as belonging to his Admission Epistol 3. dist 93. iuxta Sanctorū but only a parte These be his vvordes Omnes episcopi qui huius Apostolicae sedis ordinationi subiacent Al the bisshops that are vnder the ordering or confirmation of this Apostolike See Harding If Anacletus be counterfeite Anacletus not counterfeite it is farre from our knowledge For we found that Epistle in his name registred emong the epistles of other Popes aboue a thousand yeres past And Isidorus who gathered them found them so intitled as we reade them Therefore your slaunderours tongue toucheth not vs. Ordination and Confirmation are diuers Concerning that you accompte Ordering and Confirmation to be al one it is a grosse errour both in Grammer and in knowledge of histories Ordinatio is ordering and Confirmatio is confirmation The Ordering of bishops was done by the bishops of the same Prouince with the consent of the Metropolitane Nicen. Concil ca. 6. But the confirmation was made by other Bisshops also without the Prouince and specially by the Bishop of Rome who these many hundred yeres hath confirmed them alone bicause the vse of communicatorie letters is leaft and that is reputed don◠by the whole body which is done by the head thereof Iewel Pag. 130. Sozom. li. 6. cap. 23. So likevvise vvriteth Damasus to the Bisshops of Illyricum Par est omnes qui sunt in orbe Romano magistros consentire It is meete that al the teachers vvithin the Romaine iurisdiction should agree together Harding The olde stuffe of M Iewels Replie here repeated Before you referred these matters to your Replie as though you would haue said no more thereof and yet al this while you do but write out your Replie againe To what purpose you allege these wordes I cannot tel as the which make euidently against you and nothing for you The Romaine world or iurisdiction was both East and Weast as farre as the Romaines had conquered and they had conquered al the countries wherein al the Patriarchal Sees were placed If therefore by Damasus you wil proue that he confirmed al the bishops in the Romaine circuite surely you proue thereby that he confirmed the three Patriarkes of Alexandria of Antioche and of Ierusalem with al the bishops vnder them So wel your owne tale is tolde And in dede better it can not be tolde seing euery thing that is true is agreable with the truth and therefore what soeuer you falsifie not must needes proue against you who susteine the false cause Iewel Pag. 130. Againe that you say a Bisshop hath alvvaies benne consecrated by other three Bisshops vvhether it be true or no it may vvel be called in question a◠being of your parte hitherto very vveakely affirmed Harding My affirmation therein is taken out of the fact of the three Apostles S. Peter S. Iohn and S. Iames Euseb histor Eccl. lib. 2. ca. 2 who as Eusebius witnesseth did consecrate our Lordes brother the first bishop of Ierusalem And he againe reciteth it out of Clemens Alexandrinus So auncient was this tradition whereof now M. Iewel doubteth The same likewise is againe witnessed in the fourth Councel Concil holden at Carthage Cartha 4 where two bishops are prescribed to holde the booke of the Gospels ouer the Bishops head Can. 2. whiles the third blesseth him Iewel Pag. 130. Surely Petrus de Palude
Returne Article 4. fol. 30. sequētib I think it not good to stād about it here bicause the matter is wel handled already by M. Dorman M. Cope and M. Stapletō But you dissembling what they say go on to mainteine the Successiō of lies in your own generatiō Iewel Pope Liberius vvas an Arian Heretike Harding Or els you are an errant sclaūderous lier The truth witnessed by al sortes of writers is that he suffered bannishment by Constantius the Arian Emperour for the true Catholik faith Hieron in Chronicis in Catalogo and as S. Hierome reporteth being ouercome with the tediousnesse of his bannishmēt subscribed to the Heresie after a sort to wit by setting his hand to the bannishment of Athanasius For the Popes power was then knowen to be so great that the Emperour knew the Patriarke Athanasius could not seeme iustly to be deposed onlesse both other Bishoppes and specially the Bishop of Rome had agreed vnto it But when Liberius would not agree to the Emperours vniust request he was bannished Theodorit lib. 5 hist Tripart cap. 18. and as Theodoritus witnesseth he returned home to his See at the request of the vertuous Matrones of Rome who knew him to be farre frō the Arians heresie and iudged so wel of him for it that they would not cōmunicate with Felix whom the Emperour had placed in Liberius roume For somuch as no man knew the cause and state of Liberius better then Athanasius of al otherlie is chiefly to be heard His wordes are these Athanasius in Epist ad Solitariā vitam agentes VVhat Athanasius iudged of Liberius Liberius deinde post exactum in exilio biennium inflexus est minisque mortis ad subscriptionem inductus est Verùm illud ipsum quoque eorum violentiam Liberij in haeresim odium suum pro Athanasio suffragium cùm liberos affectus habebat satis coarguit Afterward Liberius hauing passed ouer two yeres in bānishement stooped and by threates of death was brought to subscribe But that very selfe same facte of his is a sufficient argument both of their Violence and of the hatred that Liberius bore to the heresie of the Arians and what his consent and opinion was concerning Athanasius at what time he had his desires free that is when he might both speake and do freely what semed to him most mete and expediēt in that cause How plaine are these wordes against you M. Iewel Athanasius who liued together with Liberius and knew his whole state sawe right wel that the Subscription which he made proued him not an Arian Heretik but rather a Catholike bicause he subscribed not voluntarily but violently cōstrained and that not with a vaine feare only but also with the present bannishment of two yeres and farther with the threatninges of death Therefore although Liberius sinned greuously in yelding for feare yet he neither was an Arian nor preached he their heresie in his Churche at Rome after his returne but rather repented his deede of subscription and amended it by preaching and doing al that he was hable against the Arians and therfore after his death Epiphanius calleth him beatum Epiphan Haeres 75 Tripart lib. 7. c. 23 In Apolog 2. blessed and Theodoritus calleth him sanctissimum most holy In an other place Athanasius writeth of him thus Eximiarum vrbium Episcopi capita tantarum Ecclesiarum et verbis mihi patrocinati sunt exilia sustinuerunt in quorum numero est Liberius Romanus praesul qui quanquam non vsque ad finem exilij maela perpessus est biennium tamen in ea transmigratione perdurauit non ignarus sycophantiarum quas patiebamur The Bishops of famous cities and the heades of great Churches fauoured me bothe in wordes and for my sake also susteined bannishement Emong whom was Liberius the Bishop of Rome who although he suffered not the miseries of bannishement vntil the ende yet he continued in that place whiche he was carried vnto two yeres not vnwitting what were the sclaunders that we suffered This Liberius then although perhaps he subscribed at the length yet was there neuer good or honest man that euer would cal him an Arian who in dede neuer loued the Arians but abhorred their opinion But perhaps perhaps I say he was wearye of his long bannishement and after terrible threates of death being otherwise weake subscribed Wel maie such a forced subscriptiō argue the lacke of fortitude certainely it proueth not heresie For an Heretike doth stubbornely defende his opinion But Liberius was so farre from defending the Arian heresie that he could hardly with terrour of death after two yeres banishmēt be forced to put his hand vnto the booke against Athanasius which was in deede a derogation to the faith by a cōsequēt but directly it was not Arianisme How seemeth not this wicked generation to spring of the Deuil sithence it maketh the worst of euery thing speaking euil of that which may wel and ought charitably to be defended And yet if he had benne an Arian with al his harte so long as he neuer decreed any thing according to the Arian heresie nor did set it foorth by publike authoritie of the See of Rome that should not hurt our matter of Succession Iewel Pag. 131. Pope Leo as appeareth by the Legende vvas likevvise an Arian Harding Here are al thinges stoutely spoken and nothing proued There haue benne ten Popes euery of whiche was called Leo but none of them al for ought that can be prooued was an Arian But it appeareth by the Legende say you What an obscure proufe is this yet how cleare is the sclaunder What Legende meane you M. Iewel Is it so notable that it was ynough to say the Legende whiche manner of speache we vse when we speake of knowen thinges Or were you a shamed to name the authour Verely onlesse you meane Leo the first I dare boldly say you can shewe vs no Legende written of any other Pope of that name And doth it appeare by his Legende that he was an Arian Certainely the contrarie appeareth That holy and learned Pope bothe by his owne learned workes Leo the first farre from al suspicion of Arianisme wherein he speaketh much against the Arians and by the witnesse of the fourth General Councel and of al the worlde besides is so purged from the suspiciō of that infamous name that your sclaunder in such a case must needes be most damnable vnto your selfe Truly me thinketh I lacke wordes to set foorth in due colours the lewd licentious tongue of this Sclaunderer and yet he alleageth nothing at al for al those hainous crimes which he imputeth vnto so many innocent and worthy menne The vvorthy Legende by vvhich it appeareth to M. Ievvel that pope Leo vvas an Arian Iacobus de Voragine But wilt thou know learned Reader what a worthy peece of worke it is that M. Iewel here calleth the Legende whereby he would proue that Pope
Pope Ihon 22. vvas reproued by Gerson and by the schoole of Paris for an Heretike Harding Of Pope Iohn 22. his errour see my Ansvvere to M. Iewels Vievv of his vntruthes before fol. 64. He was reproued for an opinion M. Iewel which he helde before he was Pope many yeres what the opinion was I haue declared before at large to whiche place I referre the reader for a ful answer But when being Pope he would haue confirmed that his wrong opinion that the soules of the iuste lacked the sight of God face to face vntil the daye of Iudgement God tooke him out of this life that al the world might know come who shal to sit in Peters chaier he shal neuer decree any Heresie to be mainteined as the Faith How be it it was not to be accoumpted heresie at that time as yet not being determined by the Church and semed to haue ben holden of certaine olde doctours of the Church as is before said The miracle of God in staying that man from confirming that errour by authentike decree in open Synode ought more to moue you if you were a man whom Gods workes could moue then his priuate erroneous opinion which hurteth no man but him selfe Iewel 132. Petrarcha saith Rome is a sanctuarie of al heresies Harding I neither beleue you nor him I am sure that men of greater authoritie then euer that ryming Poet was of hath said the contrarie But it may be right wel that your sclaunderous penne belieth Petrarcha Ambrosius in Epist ad papam Siricium Cyprian Lib. 1. Epist 3. In Math. cap. 16. Once you name not where he saith it But what so euer Petracha saie S. Ambrose whom we more regarde said that the Church of Rome kepeth alwaies the Apostolike beleefe whole and vndiminished And S. Cyprian saith that infidelitie can not haue accesse vnto the Romaines Iewel Lyra saith that many Popes haue fallen into heresies Harding He saith many as wel princes as chiefe priestes haue falleÌ„ from the faith but not that many haue decreed heresies as to be followed and embraced of others But how truly he saith that many haue fallen from the faith let him answer to it For I find not those many nor yet M. Iew. him selfe as diligeÌ„t as he is about it Wherin Lyra maie helpe vs for opening the text of holy Scriptures we gladly vse him as for his auctoritie specially touching antiquitie being so late a writer you know how litle weight his worde beareth in the iudgement of the learned And how is it come to passe that Nicolaus de Lyra is now so good an author with you M. Iewel who being a professed Frier in his life time followed the faith of the Romaine Church and beleued the Bishoppe of Rome to be the chiefe Bishop of Christendom and the Romaine Churche to be the head of al Churches Iewel 132. You knovv that Pope Hildebrand as he vvas charged by the Councel of Brixta vvas an aduouterer a Chuâ—che robber a periuâ—ed man a mankiller a Sorcerer and a renegate of the faith Harding I know that you lye I may saie it sauing my charitie rather then your worship For Pope Gregorie the seueÌ„th otherwise before he was Pope called Hildebrandus was a very holy man as Marianus Scotus doth witnesse who liued in the same time Marianus Srotus in Chronicis Pope HildebraÌ„dus persecuted and accused by HeÌ„rie the Emperour Marianus Scotus of Pohe Hildebrand and knew that Henrie the Emperour being enemie to Pope Hildebrand bicause the good Pope warned him of his faultes did procure a false conuenticle at Brixia and caused false accusations there to be laid in against him as he did the like also in Rome it selfe whence the Pope was constrained to flee Videns autem saith Marianus Scotus Henricus papam aufugisse congregatis 30. Episcopis fautoribuss suis in ipsa Romanae vrbis obsidione iussit haberisynoduÌ„ in qua Gregorius papafalsis inauditis criminationibus à fautoribus Henrici fictè compositis absens accusatur Denique dicebant cum prophanum scelestum amatorem discordiae virum sanguinuÌ„ sedem Apostolicam vsurpare per necromantiam Conspirantes ergo qui coÌ„uenerunt in vnum aduersus DominuÌ„ aduersus Vicarium eius Papam Gregorium daÌ„nauerunt eum But Henrie seing that the Pope was fled assembling together 30. Bishops who fauoured his part commaunded a synode to be kept euen as he was at the fiege of the citie of Rome in which Synode Gregorie the Pope being absent is accused of false crimes and such as were neuer heard of the which Henries fautours had purposely forged To be shorte they said he was a prophane man a wicked man a louer of discorde a bloudy man and that he had vsurped the See Apostolike by Necromancie They therefore who had thus assembled them selues together conspiring against our Lorde and against his Vicare Pope Gregorie condemned him If you were but a ciuil honest man M. Iewel you would not take that for a Truth which one enemie saith of an other Hildebrand acquitted by true and indiffereÌ„t historiographers It maie please you to read those Historiographers which wrote without partialitie as Marianus Scotus Platina Lambertus SchafnaburgeÌ„sis and Nauclerus with such like By perusing them you shal finde yourselfe a Lyer and Pope Hildebrand a vertuouse man and one that was zelously bent to correcte such faultes as were in the clergie at that time specially Simonie But though he had ben otherwise it hindereth not oure cause as long as he kepte the same Faith whiche he receiued of his forefathers Iewel Pag. 132. Platina calleth the Popes sometimes in scorne Pontificulos Platina in Romano 2 litle petite Popes sometimes monstra portenta monsters and vnnatural and ilshapen creatures Harding If Platina speake so of some Popes it is the more signe that he either hated the Popes or els that he spake as he thought and that he wrote not for flatterie as sometimes you saye of him I praye you what cause had Platina to flatter with them as with Hildebrand who were so long dead before he was borne And as for those with whom he liued he flattered them neuer a whit as maye appeare by the life of Pope Paulus the second Platina caÌ„not seme to haue flattered the Popes in vvritiÌ„g their liues Wel were then some Popes monsters Verely I thinke so with Platina concerning some few of their liues But euen those that were worste made no breache in the rule of the faith God so prouided alwaies that although Hel gates to wit al vices and al the power of the Deuil were bent against the Popes and the Churche of Rome yet al should not preuaile against the Rocke and true Confession of the Faith which euer hath ben and shal be in the Succession of Peters Chaire Whereupon S. Hierome doubted not to saye Hieron epist ad DamasuÌ„ Cathedrae Petri Communione consocior super illam petram aedificatam Ecclesiamscio I
The Emperour Constantinus in his letters to the people of Nicomodia Theodorit li. 1. c. 19. speaking of the vvilful errours and heresies of Priestes and Bishoppes saith thus Illorum temeraria praesumptio mea hoc est ministri Christi manu coercebitur Their rashe attemptes shal be repressed by my hande that is to saie by the hande of Christes seruant August cōtra epist Parme. li. 1. cap. 7. So likevvise S. Augustine saith to the Donatistes An fortè de religione fas non est vt dicat Imperator vel quos miserit Imperator Cur ergo ad Imperatorem legati vestri venerant Is it not lavvful that the Emperour or the Emperours deputie shoulde pronounce in a case of Religion VVherefore then vvent your ovvne Ambassadours to the Emperour Harding If you had said M. Iewel that Constantinus in his epistle to the Nicomedians had threatned to pounishe Bishoppes and Priestes that were Arians that is cursed and abominable heretiques you had in some parte said the truthe But where you saie that he spake of the wilful errours and heresies of Priestes and Bishoppes and adde not Arian Priestes and Arian Bishoppes you conceele parte of the true Storie and declare your malicious hart against Priestes and Bishoppes But to leaue that cankred spite of yours to the iudgement of God why doo ye not report the Emperours wordes as they are in your authour Theodoritus M. Ievvels corruptiō Wil you neuer leaue this your accustomed vile corruption Theodoritus saith not as you reporte but thus Theodorit lib. 1. cap. 19. Quòd si quis audacter inconsultéque ad memoriam laudē pestium illarū exarserit illius statim audacia ministri Dei hoc est mea executione coercebitur If any man be inflamed boldely and incircumspectly at the remembrance and cōmendation of those wicked and pestilent heretiques his boldenes shal be repressed straightwaie by execution done by me that am the minister of God And these threatning wordes of the Emperour are to be referred to the people of Nicodemia for to them the epistle was directed And hauing tēporal iurisdiction as power of life and death ouer them he put that terrour into their hartes that they should be neither in loue nor in admiration of those accursed Bishoppes whom he had bannished for the Arian heresie Or if M. Iewel wil haue those wordes of the Emperour to be referred as wel to the Bishoppes and Priestes as to the laie people Let him vnderstand that as it is lawful for any Prince to pounish heretiques that are excommunicate by the Churche and deliuered to the secular power be they Bishoppes or priestes So it was lawful for Constantine to pounishe these wicked Arian Bishoppes excommunicated and accused by the. 318. Bishoppes in the Councel of Nice And as the prince that now as an executour of Iustice pounisheth heretikes by death is not for that cōsideration neither iudge in causes of heresie nor supreme gouernour of the Churche So Constantine at that time had no iurisdiction ouer Bishoppes in ecclesiastical causes albeit he bannished them and threatned them other pounishmēt if they fel in loue of those cursed Arians For the princes threatning of pounishment for heresie is no argument to build a superioritie in ecclesiastical causes As for the place whiche you bring out of S. Augustine you brought it before in your Replie to proue that Emperours might receiue Appeales in ecclesiastical causes Art 4. fol. 104. 105 106. And a sufficient answere was made vnto it in the Returne of Vntruthes vpon you Why conceele you that If you had ben studious of the truthe for Goddes sake you should haue yelded vnto it or if you had iudged it false haue confuted it and not let it passe in silence and now trouble the Reader with the same stuffe againe But peraduenture you wil saie that you neuer sawe that booke and therefore that you dissemble not the answer If it were credible that you would not see a booke written directely against you and one that toucheth you so neare this excuse were tolerable But seing it hath no colour of truthe there can be litle pretended to saue you from the gilte of dissimulation and hypocrisie in this case I answere you therefore as he did S. Augustine spake in that place against the stubborne Donatistes of whom Parmenianus was one whiche complained that the Emperour Constantine eos ad campum id est ad supplicium duci iussit commaunded them to be brought foorth into the fielde that is to pounishement And in reasoning against him he tooke aduantage of his owne doinges not as allowing the Appeale to the Emperour but as prouing him vnreasonable who for aduantage would appeale to the Emperour and when the Emperour had pronounced sentence against him would striue and repine at the sentence and saie that he being a temporal prince ought not to pounishe Bishoppes Like as if you M. Iewel hauing made the Queene supreme gouernour of your Churche should saie in case you were condemned of heresie or of Simonie by the Prince Her grace ought not to condemne me in these cases a Catholique that flattereth her not with that title would reason against you and saie No sir Is it not laweful for the Queene to condemne you in a case of heresie and Simonie Why then made you the Queene supreme gouernour of your Churche Euen so did S. Augustine reason against the Donatistes And bicause by their appeale to his Maiestie they had chosen him iudge in their cause and after said he could not condemne them S. Augustine vsed their owne weapon against them to cōuince their folie and said as you saie Is it not lawful that the Emperour or the Emperours deputie should pronounce in a case of Religion Wherefore then went your owne Ambassadours to the Emperour c. But as the Catholique reasoning in suche wise against you can not be said by that to allowe the Queenes supremacie So S. Augustine in this talke against the Donatistes can not be said to allowe the Emperours authoritie in condemning of Bishoppes and other ecclesiastical causes For he answering an other Donatiste that said Augustinus epist 162. Non debuit episcopus proconsulari iudicio purgari a Bishop ought not to make his purgation before a temporal magistrate said If he be worthy to be blamed whom the temporal iudge hath absolued whereas he him selfe did not require it how much more are they to be blamed whiche would haue a temporal prince to be iudge in their cause By this it appeareth that he thought that Princes could not be iudges ouer Bishoppes Ibidem Moreouer he reporteth that Constantine who appointed iudges to heare their cause did it à sanctis Antistitibus veniam petiturus as minding to aske pardon of the holy Bishoppes for his facte And the same Emperour seing their importunitie in repairing to him as iudge said Optatus li. 1. cōtra Parmen O rabida furoris audacia Sicut in causis