the Name of Persecution and in the mean time let M. Fisher and his Fellows Angle in all parts of your Dominions for your Subjects If in your Grace and Goodness you will spare their Persons Yet I humbly beseech You see to it That they be not suffer'd to lay either their Weels or bait their Hoooks or cast their Nets in every stream lest that Tentation grow both too general and too strong I know they have many Devices to work their Ends But if they will needs be fishing let them use none but Lawful Nets Let 's have no dissolving of Oathes of Allegiance No deposing no killing of Kings Noblowing up of States to settle Quod Volumus that which fain they would have in the Church with many other Nets as dangerous as these For if their Profession of Religion were as good as they pretend it is if they cannot Compass it by Good Means I am sure they ought not to attempt it by Bad. For if they will do evil that good may come thereof the Apostle tells me Their Damnation's just Rom. 3. Now as I would humbly Beseech Your Majesty to keep a serious Vatch upon these Fsher-men which pretend S. Peter but fish not with His Net So whould I not have You neglect another sort of Anglers in a Shallower Water For they have some ill Nets too And if they may spread them when and whore they will God know what may become of it These have not so strong a Back abroad as the Romanists have but that 's no Argument to suffer them to encrease They may grow to equal Strength with Number And Factious People at home of what Sect or fond Opinion soever they be are not to be neglected Partly because they are so Near. And 't is ever a dangerous Firâ— that begins in the Bedstraw And partly because all those Domestick Evils which threaten a Rent in Church or State are with far more safety prevented by Wisdom than punished by Justice And would men consider it right they are far more beholding to that man that keeps them from falling than to him takes them up though it be to set the Arm or the Leg that 's broken in the Fall In this Discourse I have no aim to displease any nor any hope to please all If I can help on to Truth in the Church and the Peace of the Church together I shall be glad be it in any measure Nor shall I spare to speak necessary Truth out of too much Love of Peace Nor thrust on Unnecessary Truth to the Breach of that Peace which once broken is not so easily sâ—der'd again And if for Necessary Truths sake onely any man will be offended nay take nay snatch at that offence which is not given I know no fence for that 'T is Truth and I must tell it 'T is the Gospel and I must preach it 1 Cor. 9. And far safer it is in this Case to bear Anger from men than a Woe from God And where the Foundations of Faith are shaken be it by Superstition or Prophaneness he that puts not to his hand as firmly as he Can to support them is too wary and hath more Care of himself then of the Cause of Christ. And 't is a Wariness that brings more danger in the end then it shuns For the Angel of the Lord issued out a Curse against the Inhabitants of Meroz because they came not to help the Lord to help the Lord against the mighty Judg. 5. I know 't is a Great ease to let every Thing be as it will and every man believe and do as he list But whether Governors in Statâ— or Church do their duty there while is easily seen since this is an effect of no King in Israel Judg. 17. The Church of Christ upon Earth may be compared to a Hive of Bees and that can be no where so steddily placed in this world but it will be in some danger And men that care neither for the Hive nor the Bees have yet a great mind to the Honey And having once tasted the sweet of the Churches Maintenance swallow that for Honey which one day will be more bitter than Gall in their Bowells Now the King and the Priest more than any other are bound to look to the Integrity of the Church in Doctrine and Manners and that in the first place For that 's by farre the Best Honey in the Hive But in the second place They must be Careful of the Churches Maintenance too else the Bees shall make Honey for others and have none left for their own necessary sustenance and then all 's lost For we see it in daily and common use that the Honey is not taken from the â—ees but they are destroyed first Now in this great and Busie Work the King and the Priest must not fear to put their hands to the Hive though they be sure to be stung And stung by the Bees whose Hive and House they preserve It was King Davids Caâ—e God grant it be never Yours They came about me saith the Psal. 118. like Bees This was hard usage enough yet some profit some Honey might thus be gotten in the End And that 's the Kings Case But when it comes to the Priest the Case is alter'd They come about him like Waspes or like Hornets rather all sting and no Honey there And all this many times for no offence nay sometimes for Service done them would they see it But you know who said Behold I come shortly and my reward is with me to give to every man according as his Works shall be Revel 22. And he himself is so exceding great a Reward as that the manifold stings which are in the World howsoever they smart here are nothing when they are pressed out with that exceeding weight of Glory which shall be revealed Rom. 8. Now one Thing more let me be bold to Observe to Your Majesty in particular concerning Your Great Charge the Church of England 'T is in an hard Condition She professes the Ancient Catholike Faith And yet the Romanist condemns Her of Novelty in her Doctrine She practises Church-Government as it hath been in use in all Ages and all Places where the Church of Christ hath taken any Rooting both in and ever since the Apostles Times And yet the Separatist condemns Her for Antichristianism in her Discipline The plain truth is She is between these two Factions as between two Milstones and unless Your Majesty look to it to Whose Trust She is committed She 'l be grownd to powder to an irrepairable both Dishonour and loss to this Kingdom And 't is very Remarkable that while both these press hard upon the Church of England both of them Cry out upon Persecution like froward Children which scratch and kick and bite and yet cry out all the while as if themselves were killed Now to the Romanist I shall say this The Errors of the Church of Rome
and without Choyce by which their most hated Adversaries climb'd up and could not crie up themselves and their Cause as they do but by them And Divines of all the rest might learn and teach this Wisdom if they would since they see all other Professions which help to bear down their Ceremonies keep up their own therewhile and that to the highest I have been too bold to detain Your Majesty so long But my Grief to see Christendom bleeding in Dissention and which is worse triumphing in her own Blood and most angry with them that would study her Peace hath thus transported me For truely it Cannot but grieve any man that hath Bowels to see All men seeking but as S. Paul foretold Phil. 2. their own things and not the things which are Jesus Christs Sua Their own surely For the Gospel of Christ hath nothing to do with them And to see Religion so much so Zealously pretended and called upon made but the Stalking-Horse to shoot at other Fowl upon which their Aym is set In the mean time as if all were Truth and Holiness it self no Salvation must be possible did it lye at their Mercy but in the Communion of the One and in the Conventicles of the Other As if either of these now were as the Donatists of old reputed themselves the only men in whom Christ at his coming to Judgment should find Faith No faith S. Augustine and so say I with him Da veniam non Credimus Pardon us I pray we cannot believe it The Catholike Church of Christ is neither Rome nor a Conventicle Out of that there 's no Salvation I easily Confess it But out of Rome there is and out of a Conventicle too Salvation i◠not shut up into such a narrow Conclave In this ensuing Discourse therefore I have endeavour'd to lay open those wider-Gates of the Catholike Church confined to no Age Time or Place Nor knowing any Bounds but That Faith which was once and but once for all deliver'd to the Saints S. Jude 3. And in my pursuit of this way I have searched after and deliver'd with a single heart that Truth which I profess In the publishing whereof I have obeyed Your Majesty discharg'd my Duty to my power to the Church of England Given account of the Hope that is in me And so testified to the world that Faith in which I have lived and by God's blessing and favour purpose to dye But till Death shall most unfainedly remain Your MAJESTIES Most faithful Subject And Most Humble and Obliged Servant W. CANT A RELATION OF THE CONFERENCE BETWEEN WILLIAM LAWD Then L. Bishop of S. DAVIDS afterwards Lord Arch-Bishop of CANTERBURY AND M. FISHER the JESUITE F. The occasion of this Conference was B. § 1 THe occasion of this Third Conference you should know sufficiently You were an Actor in it as well as in two other VVhether you have related the two former truly appears by D. White the late Reverend L. Bishop of Ely his Relation or Exposition of them I was present at none but this Third of which I here give the Church an Account But of this Third whether that were the Cause which you alledge I cannot tell You say F. It was observed That in the second Conference all the Speech was about particular matters little or none about a continual infallible visible Church which was the chief and only Point in which a certain Lady required satisfaction as having formerly setled in her minde That it was not for her or any other unlearned persons to take upon them to judge of particulars without depending upon the judgment of the True Church B. § 2 The Opinion of that Honourable Person in this was never opened to me And it is very fit the people should look to the Judgment of the Church before they be too busie with Particulars But yet neither Scripture nor any good Authority denies them some moderate use of their own understanding and judgment especially in things familiar and evident which even ordinary Capacities may as easily understand as read And therefore some Particulars a Christian may judge without depending F. This Lady therefore having heard it granted in the first Conference That there must be a continual visible Company ever since Christ teaching unchanged Doctrine in all Fundamental Points that is Points necessary to Salvation desired to hear this confirmed and proof brought which was that continual infallible visible Church in which one may and out of which one cannot attain Salvation And therefore having appointed a time of Meeting between a B. and Me and thereupon having sent for the B. and Me before the B. came the Lady and a Friend of hers came first to the Room where I was and debated before me the aforesaid Question and not doubting of the first part to wit That there must be a continual visible Church as they had heard granted by D. VVhite and L. K. c. B. Num. 1 § 3 VVhat D. White and L. K. granted I heard not But I think both granted a continual and a visible Church neitherof them an Infallible at least in your sense And your self in this Relation speak distractedly For in these few lines from the beginning hither twice you adde Infallible between continual and visible and twice you leave it out But this concerns D. W. and he hath answered it Num. 2 Here A. C. steps in and says The Jesuite did not speak distractedly but most advisedly For saith he where he relates what D. VVhite or L. K. granted he leaves out the word Infallible because they granted it not But where he speaks of the Lady there he addes it because the Jesuite knew it was an Infallible Church which she sought to rely upon How far the Catholick Militant Church of Christ is Infallible is no Dispute for this place though you shall finde it after But sure the Jesuite did not speak most advisedly nor A. C. neither nor the Lady her self if she said she desired to relye upon an Infallible Church For an Infallible Church denotes a Particular Church in that it is set in opposition to some other Particular Church that is not Infallible Now I for my part do not know what that Lady desired to relye upon This I know if she desired such a Particular Church neither this Jesuite nor any other is able to shew it her No not Bellarmine himself though of very great ability to make good any Truth which he undertakes for the Church of Rome But no strength can uphold an Errour against Truth where Truth hath an able Defendant Now where Bellarmine sets himself purposely to make this good That the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in matter of Faith Out of which it follows That there may be found a Particular Infallible Church you shall see what he is able to perform Num. 3 1 First then after he hath distinguished to express his meaning in what sense the
have considered this too And I can take the Printing and Approving the Copies of Holy-Writ in these two senses And I can and do make a difference between Copies printed and approved by meer moral men and men assisted by Gods Spirit And yet for the Printing only a skilful and an able moral man may do better service to the Church than an illiterate man though assisted in other things by God's Spirit But when I have considered all this what then The Scripture being put in writing is a thing visibly existent and if any error be in the Print 't is easily corrigible by former Copies Tradition is not so easily observed nor so safely kept And howsoever to come home to that which A. C. infers upon it namely That the Tradition of the present Church may be accepted in these two senses And if this be all that he will infer for his pen here is troubled and forsakes him whether by any check of Conscience or no I know not I will and you see have granted it already without more ado with this Caution That every Company of men assisted by Gods Spirit are not assisted to this height to be Infallible by Divine Authority Num. 28 For all this A. C. will needs give a needless Proof of the Business Namely That there is the Promise of Christs and his Holy Spirits continual presence and assistance S. Luke 10. 16. Mat. 28. 19 20. Joh. 14. 16. not only to the Apostles but to their Successors also the lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church in all Ages And that this Promise is no less but rather more expresly to them in their Preaching by word of mouth than in writing or reading or printing or approving of Copies of what was formerly written by the Apostles And to all this I shall briefly say That there is a Promise of Christ's and the Holy Spirits continual presence and assistance I do likewise grant most freely that this Promise is on the part of Christ and the Holy Ghost most really and fully performed But then this Promise must not be extended further than 't was made It was made of Continual presence and assistance That I grant and it was made to the Apostles and their Successors That I grant too But in a different Degree For it was of Continual and Infallible Assistance to the Apostles But to their Successors of Continual and fitting assistance but not Infallible And therefore the lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church in all Ages have had and shall have Continual Assistance but by A. C's leave not Infallible at least not Divine and Infallible either in writing reading printing or approving Copies And I believe A. C. is the first that durst affirm this I thought he would have kept the Popes Prerogative intire that He only might have been Infallible and not He neither but in Cathedrâ sate down and well advised And well advised Yes that 's right But he may be sate and not well Advised even in Cathedrâ And Now shall we have all the Lawfully sent Pasters and Doctors of that Church in all ages Infallible too Here 's a deal of Infallibility indeed and yet error store The truth is the Jesuites have a Moneths mind to this Infallibility And though A. C. out of his bounty is content to extend it to all the lawfully sent Pastors of the Church yet to his own Society questionless he means it chiefly As did the Apologist to whom Casaubon replies to Fronto Ducaeus The words of the Apologist are Let day and night life and death be joyned together and then there will be some hope that Heresle may fall upon the person of a Jesuite Yea marry this is something indeed Now we know where Infallibility is to be found But for my present Occasion touching the Lawfully sent Pastors of the Church c. I will give no other Confutation of it then that M. Fisher and A. C. if they be two men are lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church at least I am sure they 'll assume they are and yet they are not Infallible which I think appears plain enough in some of their errors manifested by this Discourse and elsewhere Or if they do hold themselves infallible let them speak it out as the Apologist did Num. 29 As for the Three Places of Scripture which A. C. cites they are of old alledged and well known in this Controversie The First is in S. Luke 10. where Christ saith He that heareth you heareth me This was absolutely true in the Apostles who kept themselves to that which was reavealed by Christ. But it was to be but Conditionally true in their Successors He that heareth you heareth me That is so long and so far as you speak my words and not your own For where the Command is for Preaching the Restraint is added Go saith Christ and teach all Nations But you may not preach all things what you please but all things which I have commanded you The Publication is yours the Doctrine is mine And where the Doctrine is not mine there your Publication is beyond or short of your Commission The Second Place is in S. Mat. 28. There Christ says again I am with you always unto the end of the world Yes most certain it is present by his Spirit For else in bodily presence He continued not with his Apostles but during his abode on Earth And this Promise of his Spiritual Presence was to their Successors else why to the end of the World The Apostles did not could not live so long But then to the Successors the Promise goes no farther then I am with you always which reaches to continual assistance but not to Divine and Infallible Or if he think me mistaken let him shew me any One Father of the Church that extends the sense of this Place to Divine and Infallible Assistance granted hereby to all the Apostles Successors Sure I am Saint Gregory thought otherwise For he says plainly That in those Gifts of God which concern other mens salvation of which Preaching of the Gospel is One the Spirit of Christ the Holy Ghost doth not always abide in the Preachers be they never so lawfully sent Pastors or Doctors of the Church And if the Holy Ghost doth not always abide in the Preachers then most certainly he doth not abide in them to a Divine Infallibility always The Third Place is in S. John 14 where Christ says The Comforter the Holy Ghost shall abide with you for ever Most true again For the Holy Ghost did abide with the Apostles according to Christs Promise there made and shall abide with their Successors for ever to comfort and preserve them But here 's no Promise of Divine Infallibility made unto them And for that Promise which is made and expresly of Infallibility Saint John 16. though not cited by A. C. That 's confined
erred in such a Point of Divine Truth and of Faith Nay A. C. confesses expresly in his very next words That the Whole Church may at some time not know all Divine Truths which afterwards it may learn by study of Scripture and otherwise So then in A. C's judgment the Whole Militant Church may at some time not know all Divine Truths Now that which knows not all must be ignorant of some and that which is ignorant of some may possibly erre in one Point or other The rather because he confesses the knowledge of it must be got by Learning and Learners may mistake and erre especially where the Lesson is Divine Truth out of Scripture out of Difficult Scripture For were it of plain and easie Scripture that he speaks the Whole Church could not at any time be without the knowledge of it And for ought I yet see the Whole Church Militant hath no greater warrant against Not erring in than against Not knowing of the Points of Divine Truth For in 8. John 16. There is as large a Promise to the Church of knowing all Points of Divine Truth as A. C. or any Jesuite can produce for Her Not erring in any And if She may be ignorant or mistaken in learning of any Point of Divine Truth Doubtless in that state of Ignorance she may both Erre and teach her Error yea and teach that to be Divine Truth which is not Nay perhaps teach that as a Matter of Divine Truth which is contrary to Divine Truth Always provided it be not in any Point simply Fundamental of which the Whole Catholike Church cannot be Ignorant and in which it cannot Erre as hath before been proved Num. 5 As for the Places of Scripture which A. C. cites to prove that the Whole Church cannot Erre Generally in any one Point of Divine Truth be it Fundamental or not they are known Places all of them and are alledged by A. C. three several times in this short Tract and to three several purposes Here to prove That the Universal Church cannot Erre Before this to prove that the Tradition of the present Church cannot Erre After this to prove that the Pope cannot Erre He should have done well to have added these Places a fourth time to prove that General Councels cannot Erre For so doth both Stapleton and Bellarmine Sure A. C. and his fellows are hard driven when they must fly to the same Places for such different purposes For A Pope may Erre where a Councel doth not And a General Councel may Erre where the Catholike Church cannot And therefore it is not likely that these places should serve alike for all The first Place is Saint Matthew 16. There Christ told Saint Peter and we believe it most assuredly That Hell-Gates shall never be able to prevail against his church But that is That they shall not prevail to make the Church Catholike Apostatize and fall quite away from Christ or Erre in absolute Fundamentals which amounts to as much But the Promise reaches not to this that the Church shall never Erre no not in the lightest matters of Farth For it will not follow Hell-Gates shall not prevail against the Church Therefore Hellish Devils shall not tempt or assault and batter it And thus Saint Augustine understood the place It may fight yea and be wounded too but it cannot be wholly overcome And Bellarmine himself applies it to prove That the Visible Church of Christ cannot deficere Erre so as quite to fall away Therefore in his judgment this is a true and a safe sense of this Text of Scripture But as for not Erring at all in any Point of Divine Truth and so making the Church absolutely Infallible that 's neither a true nor a safe sense of this Scripture And 't is very remarkable that whereas this Text hath been so much beaten upon by Writers of all sorts there is no one Father of the Church for twelve hundred years after Christ the Counterfeit or Partial Decretals of some Popes excepted that ever concluded the Infallibility of the Church out of this Place but her Non deficiencie that hath been and is justly deduced hence And here I challenge A. C. and all that party to shew the contrary if they can The next Place of Scripture is Saint Matthew 28. The Promise of Christ that he will be with them to the end of the World But this in the general voyce of the Fathers of the Church is a promise of Assistance and Protection not of an Infallibility of the Church And Pope Leo himself enlarges this presence and providence of Christ to all those things which he committed to the execution of his Ministers But no word of Infallibility is to be found there And indeed since Christ according to his Prowise is present with his Ministers in all these things and that one and a Chief of these All is the preaching of his Word to the People It must follow That Christ should be present with all his Ministers that Preach his Word to make them Infallible which daily Experience tells us is not so The third Place urged by A. C. is S. Luke 22. Where the Prayer of Christ will effect no more than his Promise hath performed neither of them implying an Infallibility for or in the Church against all Errors whatsoever And this almost all his own side confess is spoken either of S. Peter's person only or of him and his Successors both Of the Church it is not spoken and therefore cannot prove an unerring Power in it For how can that place prove the Church cannot Erre which speaks not at all of the Church And 't is observable too that when the Divines of Paris expounded this Place that Christ here prayed for S. Peter as he represented the Whole Catholike Church and obtained for it that the Faith of the Catholike Church nunquam desiceret should never so erre as quite to fall away Bellarmine is so stiff for the Pope that he says expresly This Exposition of the Parisians is false and that this Text cannot be meant of the Catholike Church Not be meant of it Then certainly it ought not to be alledged as Proof of it as here it is by A. C. The fourth Place named by A. C. is S. John 14. And the consequent Place to it S. John 16. These Places contain another Promise of Christ concerning the coming of the Holy Ghost Thus That the Comforter shall abide with them for ever That this Comforter is the Spirit of Truth And That this Spirit of Truth will lead them into all Truth Now this Promise as it is applied to the Church consisting of all Believers which are and have been since Christ appeared in the Flesh including the Apostles is absolute and without any Restriction For the Holy Ghost did lead them into all Truth so that no Error was to be found in that Church
first besides the silence of Impartial Antiquity divers of your Own confess it yea and prove it too by sundry Instances Num. 10 Secondly There is a great Question among the Learned both School-men and Controversers Whether the Pope coming to be an Heretick may be Deposed And 't is Learnedly disputed by Bellarmine The Opinions are different For the Canon-Law says expresly He may be judged and deposed by the Church in case of Heresie Joh. de Turrecremata is of Opinion That the Pope is to be deposed by the Church so soon as he becomes an Heretick though as yet not a manifest one Because he is already deprived by Divine Right And recites another opinion That the Pope cannot be deposed though he fall into secret or manifest Heresie Cajetan thinks that the Pope cannot be deposed but for a manifest Heresie and that then he is not deposed ipso facto but must be deposed by the Church Bellarmine's own Opinion is That if the Pope become a manifest Heretick he presently ceases to be Pope and Head of the Church and may then be Judged and punished by the Church Bellarmine hath disputed this very Learnedly and at large and I will not fill this Discourse with another mans Labours The use I shall make of it runs through all these Opinions and through all alike And truly the very Question it self supposes that A Pope may be an Heretick For if he cannot be an Heretick why do they question whether he can be Deposed for being One And if he can be one then whether he can be Deposed by the Church Before he be manifest or not till after or neither before nor after or which way they will it comes all to one for my purpose For I question not here his Deposition for his Heresie but his Heresie And I hope none of these Learned men nor any other dare deny but that if the Pope can be an Heretick he can erre For every Heresie is an Errour and more For 't is an Errour oft-times against the Errants knowledge but ever with the pertinacie of his Will Therefore out of all even your own Grounds If the Pope can be an Heretick he can erre grosly he can erre wilfully And he that can so Erre cannot be Infallible in his Judgement private or publike For if he can be an Heretick he can and doubtless will Judge for his Heresie if the Church let him alone And you your selves maintain his Deposition lawful to prevent this I verily believe Alb. Pighius foresaw this Blow And therefore he is of Opinion That the Pope cannot become an Heretick at all And though Bellarmine favour him so far as to say his Opinion is probable yet he is so honest as to adde that the Common opinion of Divines is against him Nay though he Labour hard to excuse Pope Honorius the first from the Heresie of the Monothelites and says that Pope Adrian was deceived who thought him one yet He confesses That Pope Adrian the second with the Councel then held at Rome and the eighth General Synod did think that the Pope might be Judged in the Cause of Heresie And that the condition of the Church were most miserable if it should be constrained to acknowledge a Wolf manifestly raging for her Shepherd And here again I have a Question to ask Whether you believe the eighth General Councel or not If you believe it then you see the Pope can erre and so He not Infallible If you believe it not then in your Judgement that General Councel erres and so that not Infallible Num. 11 Thirdly It is altogether in vain and to no use that the Pope should be Infallible and that according to your own Principles Now God and Nature make nothing in vain Therefore either the Pope is not Infallible or at least God never made him so That the Infallibility of the Pope had he any in him is altogether vain and useless is manifest For if it be of any use 't is for the setling of Truth and Peace in the Church in all times of her Distraction But neither the Church nor any member of it can make any use of the Popes Infallibility that way Therefore it is of no use or benefit at all And this also is as manifest as the rest For before the Church or any particular man can make any use of this Infallibility to settle him and his Conscience he must either Know or Believe that the Pope is Infallible But a man can neither Know nor Believe it And first for Belief For if the Church or any Christian man can believe it he must believe it either by Divine or by Humane Faith Divine Faith cannot be had of it For as is before proved it hath no Ground in the written Word of God Nay to follow you closer it was never delivered by any Tradition of the Catholike Church And for Humane Faith no Rational man can possibly believe having no Word of God to over-rule his Understanding that he which is Fallible in the Means as your selves confess the Pope is can possibly be Infallible in the Conclusion And were it so that a Rational man could have Humane Faith of this Infallibility yet that neither is nor never can be sufficient to make the Pope Infallible No more than my strong Belief of another mans Honesty can make him an Honest man if he be not so Now secondly for Knowledge and that is altogether impossible too that either the Church or any Member of the Church should ever know that the Pope is Infallible And this I shall make evident also out of your own Principles For your Councel of Florence had told us That three things are necessary to every Sacrament the Matter the Form of the Sacrament and the Intention of the Priest which administers it that he intends to do as the Church doth Your Councel of Trent confirms it for the Intention of the Priest Upon this Ground be it Rock or Sand it is all one for you make it Rock and build upon it I shall raise this Battery against the Popes Infallibility First the Pope if he have any Infallibility at all he hath it as he is Bishop of Rome and S. Peter's Successour This is granted Secondly the Pope cannot be Bishop of Rome but he must be in holy Orders first And if any man be chosen that is not so the Election is void ipso facto propter errorem Personae for the errour of the Person This also is granted Thirdly He that is to be made Pope can never be in Holy Orders but by receiving them from One that hath Power to Ordain This is notoriously known So is it also that with you Order is a Sacrament properly so called And if so then the Pope when he did receive the Order of Deacon or Priesthood at the hands of the Bishop did also receive a Sacrament Upon these Grounds I raise my
Church and in that sense which he would have it And his Reason is * Because sound Doctrine is indivisible from true and lawful Succession Where you shall see this great Clerk for so he was not able to stand to himself when he hath forsaken Truth For 't is not long after that he tells us That the People are led along and judge the Doctrine by the Pastors But when the Church comes to examine she judges the Pastors by their Doctrine And this he says is necessary Because a man may become of a Pastor a Wolf Now then let Stapleton take his choice For either a Pastor in this Succession cannot become a Wolf and then this Proposition's false Or else if he can then sound Doctrine is not inseparable from true and Legitimate Succession And then the former Proposition's false as indeed it is For that a good Pastor may become a Wolf is no news in the Ancient Story of the Church in which are registred the Change of many Great men into Hereticks I spare their Names And since Judas chang'd from an Apostle to a Devil S. John 6. 't is no wonder to see others change from Shepherds into Wolves I doubt the Church is not empty of such Changelings at this day Yea but Stapleton will help all this For he adds That suppose the Pastors do forsake true Doctrine yet Succession shall still be a true Note of the Church Yet not every Succession but that which is legitimate and true Well And what is that Why That Succession is lawful which is of those Pastors which hold entire the Unity and the Faith Where you may see this Sampson's hair cut off again For at his word I 'll take him And if that onely be a Legitimate Succession which holds the Unity and the Faith entire then the Succession of Pastors in the Romane Church is illegitimate For they have had more Schisms among them than any other Church Therefore they have not kept the Unity of the Church And they have brought in gross Superstition Therefore they have not kept the Faith entire Now if A. C. have any minde to it he may do well to help Stapleton out of these briars upon which he hath torn his Credit and I doubt his Conscience too to uphold the Corruptions of the Sea of Rome Num. 9 As for that in which he is quite mistaken it is his Inference which is this That I should therefore consider carefully Whether it be not more Christian and less brain-sick to think that the Pope being S. Peter's Successour with a General Councel should be Judge of Controversies c. And that the Pastoral Judgment of him should be accounted Infallible rather than to make every man that can read the Scripture Interpreter of Scripture Decider of Controversies Controller of General Counsels and Judge of his Judges Or to have no Judge at all of Controversies of Faith but permit every man to believe as he list As if there were no Infallible certainty of Faith to be expected on earth which were instead of one saving Faith to induce a Babylonical Confusion of so many faiths as fancies Or no true Christian Faith at all From which Evils Sweet Jesus deliver us I have considered of this very carefully But this Inference supposes that which I never granted nor any Protestant that I yet know Namely That if I deny the Pope to be Judge of Controversies I must by and by either leave this supream Judicature in the hands and power of every private man that can but read the Scripture or else allow no Judge at all and so let in all manner of Confusion No God forbid that I should grant either For I have expresly declared That the Scripture interpreted by the Primitive Church and a lawful and free General Councel determining according to these is Judge of Controversies And that no private man whatsoever is or can be Judge of these Therefore A. C. is quite mistaken and I pray God it be not wilfully to beguile poor Ladies and other their weak adherents with seeming to say somewhat I say quite mistaken to infer that I am either for a private Judge or for no Judge for I utterly disclaim both and that as much if not more than he or any Romanist whoever he be But these things in this passage I cannot swallow First That the Pope with a General Councel should be Judge for the Pope in Ancient Councels never had more power than any the other Patâ—â—â—râ—hs Precedency perhaps for Orders sake and other respects he had Nor had the Pope any Negative voice against the rest in point of difference No nor was he held superiour to the Councel Therefore the ancient Church never accounted or admitted him a Judge no not with a Councel much less without it Secondly it will not down with me that his Pastoral Judgement should be Infallible especially since some of them have been as Ignorant as many that can but read the Scripture Thirdly I cannot admit this â—eâ—ther though he do most cunningly thereby abuse his Readers That any thing hath been said by me out of which it can justly be inferred That there 's no Infallible certainty of Faith to be expected on earth For there is most Infallible certainty of it that is of the Foundations of it in Scripture and the Creeds And 't is so clearly delivered there as that it needs no Judge at all to sit upon it for the Articles themselves And so entire a Body is this one Faith in it self as that the Whole Church much less the Pope hath not power to add one Article to it nor leave to detract any one the least from it But when Controversies arise about the meaning of the Articles or Superstructures upon them which are Doctrines about the Faith not the Faith it self unless where they be immediate Consequences then both in and of these a Lawful and free General Councel determining according to Scripture is the best Judge on earth But then suppose uncertainty in some of these superstructures it can never be thence concluded That there is no Infallible certainty of the Faith it self But 't is time to end especially for me that have so Many Things of Weight lying upon me and disabling me from these Polemick Discourses beside the Burden of sixty five years compleat which draws on apace to the period set by the Prophet David Psal. 90. and to the Time that I must go and give God and Christ an Account of the Talent committed to my Charge In which God for Christ Jesus sake be merciful to me who knows that however in many Weaknesses yet I have with a faithful and single heart bound to his free Grace for it laboured the Meeting the Blessed Meeting of Truth and Peace in his Church and which God in his own good time will I hope effect To Him be all Honour and Praise for ever AMEN FINIS A Table
A RELATION OF THE CONFERENCE BETWEEN William Laud Late Lord Arch-bishop of CANTERBURY AND Mr. Fisher the Jesuite By the Command of King JAMES of ever-blessed Memory WITH An ANSVVER to such EXCEPTIONS as A. C. takes against it The Third Edition Revised with a TABLE annexed LONDON Printed by J. C. for Tho. Bassett T. Dring and J. Leigh at the George the White Lion and the Bell in Fleet-street MDC LXXIII To his Most Sacred Majesty CHARLES By the Grace of GOD KING of Great Britain France and Ireland Defender of the Faith c. DREAD SOUERAIGN THIS Tract will need Patronage as Great as may be had that 's Yours Yet when I first Printed part of it I presumed not to ask any but thrust it out at the end of another's Labours that it might seem at least to have the same Patron your Royal Father of Blessed Memory as the other Work on which this attended had But now I humbly beg for it Your Majesties Patronage And leave withal that I may declare to Your Most Excellent Majestie the Cause why this Tract was then written Why it stay'd so long before it looked upon the Light Why it was not then thought fit to go alone but rather be led abroad by the former Work Why it comes now forth both with Alteration and Addition And why this Addition made not more haste to the Press than it hath done The Cause why this Discourse was written was this I was at the time of these Conferences with Mr. Fisher Bishop of S. Davids And not onely directed but commanded by my blessed Master King JAMES to this Conference with him He when we met began with a great Protestation of seeking the Truth onely and that for it self And certainly Truth especially in Religion is so to be sought or not to be found He that seeks it with a Roman Bias or any b Other will run Counter when he comes near it and not finde it though he come within kenning of it And therefore I did most heartily wish I could have found the Jesuite upon that fair way he protested to go After the Conference ended I went whither my Duty called me to my Diocess not suspecting any thing should be made Publike that was both Commanded and acted in Private For W. I. the Publisher of the Relation of the first Conference with D. White the late Reverend and Learned Bishop of Ely confesses plainly That M. Fisher was straightly charged upon his Allegiance from his Majestie that then was not to set out or Publish what passed in some of these Conferences till He gave License and until Mr. Fisher and they might meet and agree and Confirm under their Hands what was said on both sides He says farther that Mr. Fisher went to Dr. White 's house to know what he would say about the Relation which he had set out So then belike Mr. Fisher had set out the Relation of that Conference before he went to Dr. White to speak about it And this notwithstanding the Kings Restraint upon him upon his Allegiance Yet to Dr. White 't is said he went but to what other end than to put a Scorn upon him I cannot see For he went to his house to know what he would say about that Relation of the Conference which he had set out before In my absence from London Mr. Fisher used me as well For with the same Care of his Allegiance and no more he spread abroad Papers of this Conference full enough of partialitie to his Cause and more full of Calumny against me Hereupon I was in a manner forced to give M. Fisher's Relation of the Conference an Answer and to publish it Though for some Reasons and those then approved by Authority it was thought fit I should set it out in my Chaplain's Name R. B. and not in my own To which I readily submitted There was a cause also why at the first the Discourse upon this Conference stayed so long before it could endure to be pressed For the Conference was in May 1622. And M. Fisher's Paper was scattered and made common so common that a Copy was brought to me being none of his special friends before Michaelmas And yet this Discourse was not printed till April 1624. Now that you may know how this happened I shall say for my self It was not my Idleness nor my Unwillingness to right both my self and the Cause against the Jesuite and the Paper which he had spred that occasion'd this delay For I had then Most Honourable Witnesses and have some yet living That this Discourse such as it was when A. C. nibled at it was finished long before I could perswade my self to let it come into Publike View And this was caused partly by my own Backwardness to deal with these men whom I have ever observed to be great Pretenders for Truth and Unity but yet such as will admit neither unless They and their Faction may prevail in all As if no Reformation had been necessary And partly because there were about the same time three Conferences held with Fisher. Of these this was the Third And could not therefore conveniently come abroad into the world till the two former were ready to lead the way which till that time they were not And this is in part the Reason also why this Tract crept into the end of a larger Work For since that Work contained in a manner the substance of all that passed in the two former Conferences And that this third in divers points concurred with them and depended on them I could not think it Substantive enough to stand alone But besides this Affinity between the Conferences I was willing to have it pass as silently as it might at the end of another Work and so perhaps little to be looked after because I could not hold it worthy nor can I yet of that Great Duty and Service which I owe to my Dear Mother the Church of England There is a cause also why it looks now abroad again with Alteration and Addition And 't is fit I should give your Majesty an Account of that too This Tract was first printed in the year 1624. And in the year 1626 another Jesuite or the same under the name of A. C. printed a Relation of this Conference and therein took Exceptions to some Particulars endeavoured to Confute some Things deliver'd therein by me Now being in years and unwilling to die in the Jesuites debt I have in this Second Edition done as much for him and somewhat more For he did but skip up and down and labour to pick a hole here and there where he thought he might fasten and where it was too hard for him let it alone But I have gone through with him And I hope given a full Confutation or at least such a Bone to gnaw as may shake his teeth if he look not to it And of my Addition to this Discourse this is the Cause But of
are grown now many of them very Old And when Errors are grown by Age and Continuance to strength they which speak for the Truth though it be far Older are ordinarily challenged for the Bringers in of New Opinions And there is no Greater Absurdity stirring this day in Christendom than that the Reformation of an Old Corrupted Church will we â—ill we must be taken for the Building of a New And were not this so we should never be troubled with that idle and impertinent Question of theirs Where was your Church before Luther For it was just there where their's is now One and the same Church still no doubt of that One in Substance but not One in Condition of state and purity Their part of the same Church remaining in Corruption and Our part of the same Church under Reformation The same Naaman and he a Syrian still but Leprous with them and Cleansed with us The same man still And for the Separatist and him that lays his Grounds for Separation or Change of Discipline though all he says or can say be in Truth of Divinity and among Learned men little better than ridiculous yet since these fond Opinions have gain'd some ground among your people to such among them as are wilfully seâ— to follow their blind Guides through thick and thin till they fall into the Ditch together I shall say nothing But for so many of them as mean well and are onely misled by Artifice and Cunning Concerning them I shall say thus much only They are Bells of passing good mettle and tuneable enough of themselves and in their own disposition and a world of pity it is that they are Rung so miserably out of Tune as they are by them which have gotten power in and over their Consciences And for this there is yet Remedy enough but how long there will be I know not Much talking there is Bragging Your Majesty may call it on both sides And when they are in their ruff they both exceed all Moderation and Truth too So far till both Lips and Pens open for all the World like a Purse without money Nothing comes out of this and that which is worth nothing out of them And yet this nothing is made so great as if the Salvation of Souls that Great work of the Redeemer of the World the Son of God could not be effected without it And while the one faction cryes up the Church above the Scripture and the other the Scripture to the neglect and Contempt of the Church which the Scripture it self teaches men both to honour and obey They have so far endangered the Belief of the One and the Authority of the Other as that neither hath its Due from a great part of Men. Whereas according to Christs Institution The Scripture where 't is plain should guide the Church And the Church were there 's Doubt or Difficulty should expound the Scripture Yet so as neither the Scripture should be forced nor the Church so bound up as that upon Just and farther Evidence She may not revise that which in any Case hath slipt by Her What Success this Great Distemper caused by the Collision of two such Factions may have I know not I cannot Prophesie This I know That the use which Wise men should make of other mens falls is not to fall with with them And the use which Pious and Religious men should make of these great Flaws in Christianity is not to Joyn with them that make them nor to help to dislocate those main Bones in the Body which being once put out of Joynt will not easily be set again And though I cannot Prophesie yet I fear That Atheism and Irreligion gather strength while the Truth is thus weakned by an Unworthy way of Contending for it And while they thus Contend neither part Consider that they are in a way to induce upon themselvs and others that Contrary Extream which they seem most both to fear and oppose Besides This I have ever Observed That many Rigid Professors have turn'd Roman Catholiks and in that Turn have been more Jesuited than any other And such Romanists as have chang'd from them have for the most part quite leaped over the Mean and been as Rigid the other way as Extremity it self And this is there be not both Grace and Wisdom to govern it is a very Natural Motion For a man is apt to think he can never run far enough from that which he once begins to hate And doth not Consider therewhile That where Religion Corrupted is the thing he hates a Fallacy may easily be put upon him For he ought to hate the Corruption which depraves Religion and to run from it but from no part of Religion it self which he ought to Love and Reverence ought he to depart And this I have Observed farther That no one thing hath made Conscientious men more wavering in their own mindes or more apt and easie to be drawn aside from the sincerity of Religion professed in the Church of England than the Want of Uniform and Decent Order in too many Churches of the Kingdom And the Romanists have been apt to say The Houses of God could not be suffer'd to lye so Nastily as in some places they have done were the True worship of God observed in them Or did the People think that such it were â—istrue the Inward Worship of the Heart is the Great Service of God and no Service acceptable without it But the External worship of God in his Church is the Great Witness to the World that Our heart stands right in that Service of God Take this away or bring it into Contempt and what Light is there left to shine before men that they may see our Devotion and glorifie our Father which is in Heaven And to deal clearly with Your Majesty These Thoughts are they and no other which have made me labour so much as I have done for Decency and an Orderly settlement of the External Worship of God in the Church For of that which is Inward there can be no Witness among men nor no Example for men Now no External Action in the world can be Uniform without some Ceremonies And these in Religion the Ancienter they be the better so they may fit Time and Place Too many Over-burden the Service of God And too few leave it naked And scarce any Thing hath hurt Religion more in these broken Times than an Opinion in too many men That because Rome had thrust some Unnecessary and many Superstitious Ceremonies upon the Church therefore the Reformation must have none at all Not considering therewhile That Ceremonies are the Hedge that fence the Substance of Religion from all the Indignities which Prophaneness and Sacriledge too Commonly put upon it And a Great Weakness it is not to see the strength which Ceremonies Things weak enough in themselves God knows adde even to Religion it self But a far greater to see it and yet to Cry Them down all
to the Apostles only for the setling of them in all Truth And yet not simply all For there are some Truths saith Saint Augustine which no mans Soul can comprehend in this life Not simply all But all those Truths quae non poterant portare which they were not able to bear when He Conversed with them Not simply all but all that was necessary for the Founding propagating establishing and Confirming the Christian Church But if any man take the boldness to inlarge this Promise in the fulness of it beyond the persons of the Apostles themselves that will fall out which Saint Augustine hath in a manner prophecied Every Heretick will shelter himself and his Vanities under this Colour of Infallible Verity Num. 30 I told you a little before that A. C. his Pen was troubled and failed him Therefore I will help to make out his Inference for him that his Cause may have all the strength it can And as I conceive this is that he would have The Tradition of the present Church is as able to work in us Divine and Infallible Faith That the Scripture is the Word of God As that the Bible or Books of Scripture now printed and in use is a true Copy of that which was first written by the Pen-men of the Holy Ghost and delivered to the Church 'T is most true the Tradition of the present Church is alike operative and powerful in and over both these works but neither Divine nor Infallible in either But as it is the first moral Inducement to perswade that Scripture is the Word of God so is it also the first but moral still that the Bible we now have is a true Copy of that which was first written But then as in the former so in this latter for the true Copy The last Resolution of our Faith cannot possibly rest upon the naked Tradition of the present Church but must by and with it go higher to other Helps and Assurances Where I hope A. C. will confess we have greater helps to discover the truth or falshood of a Copy than we have means to look into a Tradition Or especially to sift out this Truth That it was a Divine and Infallible Revelation by which the Originals of Scripture were first written That being far more the Subject of this Inquiry than the Copy which according to Art and Science may be examined by former preceding Copies close up to the very Apostles times Num. 31 But A. C. hath not done yet For in the last place he tells us That Tradition and Scripture without any vicious Circle do mutually confirm the Authority either of other And truly for my part I shall easily grant him this so he will grant me this other Namely That though they do mutually yet they do not equally confirm the Authority either of other For Scripture doth infallibly confirm the Authority of Church-Traditions truly so called But Tradition doth but morally and probably confirm the Authority of the Scripture And this is manifest by A. C.'s own Similitude For saith he 't is as a Kings Embassadors word of mouth and His Kings Letters bear mutual witness to each other Just so indeed For His Kings Letters of Credence under hand and seal confirm the Embassadors Authority Infallibly to all that know Seal and hand But the Embassadors word of mouth confirms His Kings Letters but only probably For else Why are they called Letters of Credence if they give not him more Credit than he can give them But that which follows I cannot approve to wit That the Lawfully sent Preachers of the Gospel are Gods Legats and the Scriptures Gods Letters which he hath appointed his Legates to deliver and expound So far 't is well but here 's the sting That these Letters do warrant that the People may hear and give Credit to these Legates of Christ as to Christ the King himself Soft this is too high a great deal No Legate was ever of so great Credit as the King himself Nor was any Priest never so lawfully sent ever of that Authority that Christ himself No sure For ye call me Master and Lord and ye do well for so I am saith our Saviour S. John 13. And certainly this did not suddenly drop out of A. C's Pen. For he told us once before That this Company of men which deliver the present Churches Tradition that is the lawfully sent Preachers of the Church are assisted by Gods Spirit to have in them Divine and Infallible Authority and to be worthy of Divine and Infallible Credit sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Why but is it possible these men should go thus far to defend an Error be it never so dear unto them They as Christ Divine and Infallible Authority in them Sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith I have often heard some wise men say That the Jesuite in the Church of Rome and the Precise party in the Reformed Churches agree in many things though they would seem most to differ And surely this is one For both of them differ extremely about Tradition The one in magnifying it and exalting it into Divine Authority the other vilifying and depressing it almost beneath Humane And yet even in these different ways both agree in this Consequent That the Sermons and Preachings by word of mouth of the lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church are able to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Nay are the very word of God So A. C. expresly And no less then so have some accounted of their own factious words to say no more than as the Word of God I ever took Sermons and so do still to be most necessary Expositions and Applications of Holy Scripture and a great ordinary means of saving knowledge But I cannot think them or the Preachers of them Divinely Infallible The Ancient Fathers of the Church preached far beyond any of these of either faction And yet no one of them durst think himself Infallible much less that whatsoever he preached was the Word of God And it may be Observed too That no men are more apt to say That all the Fathers were but Men and might Erre than they that think their own preachings are Infallible Num. 32 The next thing after this large Interpretation of A. C. which I shall trouble you with is That this method and manner of proving Scripture to be the Word of God which I here use is the same which the Ancient Church ever held namely Tradition or Ecclesiastical Authority first and then all other Arguments but especially internal from the Scripture it self This way the Church went in S. Augustine's Time He was no enemy to Church-Tradition yet when he would prove that the Author of the Scripture and so of the whole knowledge of Divinity as it is supernatural is Deus in Christo God in Christ he takes this as the All-sufficient way and gives
there is by Historical and acquired Faith And if Consent of Humane Story can assure me this why should not Consent of Church-story assure me the other That Christ and his Apostles delivered this Body of Scripture as the Oracles of God For Jews Enemies to Christ they bear witness to the Old Testament and Christians through almost all Nations give in evidence to both Old and New And no Pagan or other Enemies of Christianity can give such a Worthy and Consenting Testimony for any Authority upon which they rely or almost for any Principle which they have as the Scripture hath gained to it self And as is the Testimony which it receives above all Writings of all Nations so here is assurance in a great measure without any Divine Authority in a Word written or Unwritten A great assurance and it is Infallible too Only then we must distinguish Infallibility For first a thing may be presented as an infallible Object of Belief when it is true and remains so For Truth quà talis as it is Truth cannot deceive Secondly a thing is said to be Infallible when it is not only true and remains so actually but when it is of such invariable constancie and upon such ground as that no Degree of falshood at any time in any respect can fall upon it Certain it is that by Humane Authority Consent and Proof a man may be assured infallibly that the Scripture is the Word of God by an acquired Habit of Faith cui non subest falsum under which nor Error nor falshood is But he cannot be assured insallibly by Divine Faith cui subesse non potest falsum into which no falshood can come but by a Divine Testimony This Testimony is absolute in Scripture it self delivered by the Apostles for the Word of God and so sealed to our Souls by the operation of the Holy Ghost That which makes way for this as an Introduction and outward motive is the Tradition of the present Church but that neither simply Divine nor sufficient alone into which we may resolve our Faith but only as is before expressed Num. 2 And now to come close to the Particular The time was before this miserable Rent in the Church of Christ which I think no true Christian can look upon but with a bleeding heart that you and We were all of One Belief That belief was tainted in tract and corruption of times very deeply A Division was made yet so that both Parts held the Creed and other Common Principles of Belief Of these this was one of the greatest That the Scripture is the Word of God For our belief of all things contained in it depends upon it Since this Division there hath been nothing done by us to discredit this Principle Nay We have given it all honour and ascribed unto it more sufficiencie even to the containing of all things necessary to salvation with Satis superque enough and more than enough which your selves have not done do not And for begetting and setling a Belief of this Principle we go the same way with you and a better besides The same way with you Because we allow the Tradition of the present Church to be the first inducing Motive to embrace this Principle only we cannot go so far in this way as you to make the present Tradition always an Infallible Word of God unwritten For this is to go so far in till you be out of the way For Tradition is but a Lane in the Church it hath an end not only to receive us in but another after to let us out into more open and richer ground And we go a better way than you Because after we are moved and prepared and induced by Tradition we resolve our Faith into that Written Word and God delivering it in which we find materially though not in Terms the very Tradition that led us thither And so we are sure by Divine Authority that we are in the way because at the end we find the way proved And do what can be done you can never settle the Faith of man about this great Principle till you rise to greater assurance than the Present Church alone can give And therefore once again to that known place of S. Augustine The words of the Father are Nisi commoveret Unless the Authority of the Church moved me but not alone but with other Motives else it were not commovere to move together And the other Motives are Resolvers though this be Leader Now since we go the same way with you so far as you go right and a better way than you where you go wrong we need not admit any other Word of God than we do And this ought to remain as a Presupposed Principle among all Christians and not so much as come into this Question about the sufficiencie of Scripture between you and us But you say that F. From this the Lady called us and desiring to hear Whether the Bishop would grant the Roman Church to be the Right Church The B. granted That it was B. § 20 Num. 1 One occasion which moved Tertullian to write his Book d◠Praescript adversus Haereticos was That he saw little or no Profit come by Disputations Sure the Ground was the same then and now It was not to deny that Disputation is an Opening of the Understanding a sifting out of Truth it was not to affirm that any such Disquisition is in and of it self unprofitable If it had S. Stephen would not have disputed with the Cyrenians nor S. Paul with the Grecians first and then with the Jews and all Comers No sure it was some Abuse in the Disputants that frustrated the good of the Disputation And one Abuse in the Disputants is a Resolution to hold their own though it be by unworthy means and disparagement of truth And so I find it here For as it is true that this Question was asked so it is altogether false that it was asked in this form or so answered There is a great deal of Difference especially as Romanists handle the Question of the Church between The Church and A Church and there is some between a True Church and a Right Church which is the word you use but no man else that I know I am sure not I. Num. 2 For The Church may import in our Language The only true Church and perhaps as some of you seem to make it the Root and the Ground of the Catholike And this I never did grant of the Roman Church nor ever mean to do But A Church can imply no more than that it is a member of the Whole And this I never did nor ever will deny if it fall not absolutely away from Christ. That it is a True Church I granted also but not a Right as you impose upon me For Ens and Verum Being and True are convertible one with another and every thing that hath a Being is
says expresly Though Israel transgress yet let not Judah sin And S. Hierome expounds it of this very particular sin of Heresie and Error in Religion Nor can you say that Israel from the time of the Separation was not a a Church for there were true Prophets in it Elias and Elizaeus and others and thousands that had not bowed knees to 〈◊〉 And there was Salvation for these which cannot be in the Ordinary way where there is no Church And God threatens to cast them away to wander among the Nations and be no Congregation no Church therefore he had not yet cast them away in Non Ecclesiam into No-Church And they are expresly called the People of the Lord in 〈◊〉 time and so continued long after Nor can you plead that Judan is your part and the Ten Tribes ours as some of you do for if that be true you must grant that the Multitude and greater number is ours and where then is Multitude your â—â—merous Note of the Church For the Ten Tribes were more than the two But you cannot plead it For certainly if any Calves be set up they are in Dan and in Bethel They are not ours Num. 2 Besides to reform what is amiss in Doctrine or Manners is as lawful for a Particular Church as it is to publish and promulgate any thing that is Catholike in either And your Question Quo Judice lies alike against both And yet I think it may be proved that the Church of Rome and that as a Particular Church did promulgate an Orthodox Truth which was not then Catholikely admitted in the Church namely The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son If she erred in this Fact confess her Error if she erred not why may not another Particular Church do as she did A learned School-man of yours saith she may The Church of Rome needed not to call the Grecians to agree upon this Truth since the Authority of publishing it was in the Church of Rome especially since it is lawful for every particular Church to promulgate that which is Catholike Nor can you say he means Catholike as fore-determined by the Church in general for so this Point when Rome added Filioque to the Creed of a General Councel was not And how the Grecians were used in the after-Councel such as it was of Florence is not to trouble this Dispute But Catholike stands there for that which is so in the nature of it and Fundamentally Nor can you justly say That the Church of Rome did or might do this by the Pope's Authority over the Church For suppose he have that and that his Sentence be Infallible I say suppose both but I give neither yet neither his Authority nor his Infallibility can belong unto him as the particular Bishop of that Sâ—a but as the Ministerial Head of the whole Church And you are all so lodged in this that Bellarmine professes he can neither tell the year when nor the Pope under whom this Addition was made A Particular Church then if you judge it by the School of Rome or the Practice of Rome may publish any thing that is Catholike where the whole Church is silent and may therefore Reform any thing that is not Catholike where the whole Church is negligent or will not Num. 3 But you are as jealous of the honour of Rome as Capellus is who is angry with Baronius about certain Canons in the second Milevitane Councel and saith That he considered not of what consequence it was to grant to Particular Churches the Power of making Canons of Faith without consulting the Roman Sea which as he saith and you with him was never lawful nor ever done But suppose this were so my Speech was not Not consulting but in Case of Neglecting or Refusing Or when the difficulty of Time and Place or other Circumstances are such that a General Councel cannot be called or not convene For that the Roman Sea must be consulted with before any Reformation be made First most certain it is Capellus can never prove And secondly as certain that were it proved and practised we should have no Reformation For it would be long enough before the Church should be cured if that Sea alone should be her Physitian which in truth is her Disease Num. 4 Now if for all this you will say still that a Provincial Councel will not suffice but we should have born with Things till the time of a General Councel First 't is true a General Councel free and entire would have been the best Remedy and most able for a Gangrene that had spread so far and eaten so deep into Christianity But what Should we have suffered this Gangrene to endanger life and all rather than be cured in time by a Physitian of a weaker knowledge and a less able Hand Secondly We live to see since if we had stayed and expected a General Councel what manner of one we should have had if any For that at Trent was neither general nor free And for the Errors which Rome had contracted it confirmed them it cured them not And yet I much doubt whether ever that Councel such as it was would have been called if some Provincial and National Synods under Supreme and Regal Power had not first set upon this great work of Reformation Which I heartily wish had in all places been as Orderly and Happily pursued as the Work was right Christian and good in it self But humane frailty and the Heats and Distempers of men as well as the Cunning of the Devil would not suffer that For even in this sense also The wrath of man doth not accomplish the will of God S. James 1. But I have learned not to reject the Good which God hath wrought for any evil which men may fasten to it Num. 5 And yet if for all this you think 't is better for us to be blind than to open our own eyes let me tell you very Grave and Learned Men and of your own Party have taught me That when the Universal Church will not or for the Iniquities of the Times cannot obtain and settle a free general Councel 't is lawful nay sometimes necessary to Reform gross Abuses by a National or a Provincial For besides Alb. Magnus whom I quoted before Gerson the Learned and devout Chancellor of Paris tells us plainly That he will not deny but that the Church may be reformed by parts And that this is necessary and that to effect it Provincial Councels may suffice and in some things Diocesan And again Either you should reform all estates of the Church in a General Councel or command them to be reformed in Provincial Councels Now Gerson lived about two hundred years since But this Right of Provincial Synods that they might decree in Causes of Faith and in Cases of Reformation where Corruptions had crept into the Sacraments of Christ was practised much
But as it is appliable to the whole Church Militant in all succeeding times so the Promise was made with a Limitation namely that the Blessed Spirit should abide with the Church for ever and lead it into all Truth but not simply into all Curious Truth no not in or about the Faith but into all Truth necessary to Salvation And against this Truth the Whole Catholike Church cannot erre keeping her self to the direction of the Scripture as Christ hath appointed her For in this very Place where the Promise is made That the Holy Ghost shall teach you all things 't is added that He shall bring all things to their remembrance What simply all things No But all things which Christ had told them S. John 14. So there is a Limitation put upon the words by Christ himself And if the Church will not erre it must not ravel Curiously into unnecessary Truths which are out of the Promise nor follow any other Guide than the Doctrine which Christ hath lest behind him to govern it For if it will come to the End it must keep in the Way And Christ who promised the Spirit should lead hath no where promised that it shall follow its Leader into all Truth and at least not Infallibly unless you will Limit as before So no one of these Places can make good A. C.'s Assertion That the whole Church cannot erre Generally in any 〈◊〉 Point of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In Absolute Foundations she cannot in Deductions and superstructures she may Num. 6 Now to all that I have said concerning the Right which Particular Churches have to Reform themselves when the General Church cannot for Impediments or will not for Negligence which I have proved at large before All the Answer that A. C. gives is First Quo Judice Who shall be Judge And that shall be the Scripture and the Primitive Church And by the Rules of the one and to the Integrity of the other both in Faith and Manners any Particular Church may safely Reform it self Num. 7 Secondly That no Reformation in Faith can be needful in the General Church but only in Particular Churches In which Case also he saith Particular Churches may not take upon them to Judge and Condemn others of Errors in Faith Well how far forth Reformation even of Faith may be necessary in the General Church I have expressed already And for Particular Churches I do not say that they must take upon them to Judge or Condemn others of Error in Faith That which I say is They may Reform themselves Now I hope to Reform themselves and to Condemn others are two different Words unless it fall out so that by Reforming themselves they do by consequence Condemn any other that is guilty in that Point in which they Reform themselves and so far to Judge and Condemn others is not only lawful but necessary A man that lives religiously doth not by and by sit in Judgment and Condemn with his mouth all Prophane Livers But yet while he is silent his very Life condemns them And I hope in this way of Judicature A. C. dares not say 't is unlawful for a particular Church or man to Condemn another And 〈◊〉 whatsoever A. C. can say to the contrary there are divers Cases where Heresies are known and notorious in which it will be hard to say as he doth That one Particular Church must not Judge or Condemn another so far forth at 〈◊〉 as to 〈◊〉 and protest against the Heresie of it Num. 8 Thirdly If one Particular Church may not Judge or Condemn another what must then be done where Particulars need Reformation What Why then A. C. tells us That Particular Churches must in that Case as Irenaeus intimateth have recourse to the Church of Rome which hath more powerful sub Principality the Principality of an Apostolike Chair Or if you will the Apostolike Chair in relation to the West and South parts of the Church all the other four Apostolike Chairs being in the East Now this no man denies that understands the state and story of the Church And Calvin confesses it expresly Nor is the Word Principatus so great nor were the Bishops of those times so little as that Principes and Principatus are not commonly given them both by the Greek and the Latine Fathers of this great and Learnedst Age of the Church made up of the fourth and fifth hundred years always understanding Principatus of their Spiritual Power and within the Limits of their several Jurisdictions which perhaps now and then they did occasionally exceed And there is not one word in S. Augustine That this Principality of the Apostolike Chair in the Church of Rome was then or ought to be now exercised over the whole Church of Christ as Bellarmine insinuates there and as A. C. would have it here And to prove that S. Augustine did not intend by Principatus here to give the Roman Bishop any Power out of his own Limits which God knows were far short of the whole Church I shall make it most manifest out of the very same Epistle For afterwards saith S. Augustine when the pertinacie of the Donatists could not be restrained by the African Bishops only they gave them leave to be beard by forein Bishops And after that he hath these words And yet peradventure Melciades the Bishop of the Roman Church with his Colleagues the Transmarine Bishops non debuit ought not usurp to himself this Judgment which was determined by seventy African Bishops Tigisitanus sitting Primate And what will you say if he did not usurp this Power For the Emperor being desired sent Bishops Judges which should sit with him and determine what was just upon the whole Cause In which Passage there are very many things Observeable As first that the Roman Prelate came not in till there was leave for them to go to Transmarine Bishops Secondly that if the Pope had come in without this Leave it had been an Usurpation Thirdly that when he did thus come in not by his own Proper Authority but by Leave there were other Bishops made Judges with him Fourthly that these other Bishops were appointed and sent by the Emperor and his Power that which the Pope will least of all indure Lastly lest the Pope and his Adherents should say this was an Usurpation in the Emperor S. Aug. tells us a little before in the same Epistle still that this doth chiefly belong ad Curam ejus to the Emperors Care and charge and that He is to give an Account to God for it And Melciades did sit and Judge the Business with all Christian Prudence and Moderation So at this time the Roman Prelate was not received as Pastor of the whole Church say A. C. what he please Nor had he any Supremacie over the other Patriarchs And for this were all other Records of Antiquity silent the Civil Law is proof enough And that 's a Monument
his times And he was both born dead during the Reign of Henry the third of England Nay it stands yet as a Monument in the very Missal against the present Practice of the Church of Rome That then it was usually Given and received in both kindes And for Invocation of Saints though some of the Ancient Fathers have some Rhetorical flourishes about it for the stirring up of Devotion as they thought yet the Church then admitted not of the Innovation of them but onely of the Commemoration of the Martyrs as appears clearly in S. Augustine And when the Church prayed to God for any thing she desired to be heard for the Mercies and the Merits of Christ nor for the Merits of any Saints whatsoever For I much doubt this were to make the Saints more than Mediators of Intercession which is all that you acknowledge you allow the Saints For I pray is not by the Merits more than by the Intercession Did not Christ redeem us by his Merits And if God must hear our Prayers for the Merits of the Saints how much fall they short of sharers in the Mediation of Redemption You may think of this For such Prayers as these the Church of Rome makes at this day and they stand not without great scandal to Christ and Christianity used and authorized to be used in the Missal For instance Upon the Feast of S. Nicolas you pray That God by the Merits and Prayers of S. Nicolas would deliver you from the fire of Hell And upon the Octaves of S. Peter and S. Paul you desire God that you may Obtain the Glory of Eternity by their Merits And on the Feast of S. Bonaventure you pray that God would absolve you from all your sins by the Interceding Merits of Bonaventure And for Adoration of Images the Ancient Church knew it not And the Modern Church of Rome is too like to Paganism in the Practice of it and driven to scarce Intelligible Subtilties in her Servants Writings that defend it And this without any Care had of Millions of Souls unable to understand her Subtilties or shun her Practice Did I say the Modern Church of Rome is grown too like Paganism in this Point And may this speech seem too hard Well if it do I 'll give a Double Account of it The One is 'T is no harsher Expression than They of Rome use of the Protestants and in Cases in which there is no shew or resemblance For Becanus tells us 'T is no more lawful to receive the Sacrament as the Calvinisis receive it than to worship Idols with the Ethnicks And Gregory de Valentia enlarges it to more Points than one but with no more truth The Sectaries of our times saith he seem to Erre culpably in more things than the Gentiles This is easily said but here 's no Proof Nor shall I hold it a sufficient warrant for me to sowre my Language because these men have dipped their Pens in Gall. The Other Account therefore which I shall give of this speech shall come vouched both by Authority and Reason And first for Authority I could set Ludovicus Vives against Becanus if I would who says expresly That the making of Feasts at the Oratories of the Martyrs which S. Augustine tells us The best Christians practised not are a kinde of Parentalia Funeral-feasts too much resembling the superstition of the Gentiles Nay Vives need not say resembling that superstition since Tertullian tells us plainly that Idolatry it self is but a kinde of Parentation And Vives dying in the Communion of the Church of Rome is a better testimony against you than Becanus or Valentia being bitter enemies to our Communion can be against us But I 'll come nearer home to you and prove it by more of your own For Cassander who lived and died in your Communion says it expresly That in this present Case of the Adoration of Images you came full home to the Superstition of the Heathen And secondly for Reason I have I think too much to give that the Modern Church of Rome is grown too like to Paganism in this Point For the Councel of Trent it self confesses That to believe there 's any Divinity in Images is to do as the Gentiles did by their Idols And though in some words after the Fathers of that Councel seem very religiously careful that all Occasion of dangerous Errour be prevented yet the Doctrine it self is so full of danger that it works strongly both upon the Learned and Unlearned to the scandal of Religion and the perverting of Truth For the Unlearned first how it works upon them by whole Countries together you may see by what happened in Asturiis Cantabria Galetia no small parts of Spain For there the People so He tells me that was an Eye-witness and that since the Councel of Trent are so addicted to their worm-eaten and deformed Images that when the Bishops commanded new and handsomer Images to be set up in their rooms the poor people cried for their old would not look up to their new as if they did not represent the same thing And though he say this is by little and little amended yet I believe there 's very little Amendment And it works upon the Learned too more than it should For it wrought so far upon Lamas himself who bemoaned the former Passage as that he delivers this Doctrine That the Images of Christ the blessed Virgin and the Saints are not to be worshipped as if there were any Divinity in the Images as they are material things made by Art but onely as they represent Christ and the Saints for else it were Idolatry So then belike according to the Divinity of this Casuist a man may worship Images and ask of them and put his trust in them as they represent Christ and the Samâ—s For so there is Divinity in them though not as Things yet as Representers Anâ— what I pray did or could any Pagan Priest say more than this For the Proposition resolved is this The Images of Christ and the Saints as they represent their Exemplars have Deity or Divinity in them And now I pray A. C. do you be judge whether this Proposition do not teach Idolatry And whether the Modern Church of Rome be not grown too like to Paganism in this Point For my own part I heartily wish it were not And that men of Learning would not strain their wits to spoil the Truth and rent the Peace of the Church of Christ by such dangerous such superstitious vanities For better they are not but they may be worse Nay these and their like have given so great a Scandal among us to some ignorant though I presume well-meaning men that they are afraid to testifie their duty to God even in his own House by any outward Gesture at all Insomuch that those very Ceremonies which by the Judgement of Godly and Learned
secure way in regard of Roman Corruptions And A. C. cannot plead for himself that he either knew not this or that he overlook'd it for himself disputes against it as strongly as he can What modesty or Truth call you this For he that confesses a possibility of Salvation doth not thereby confess no peril of Damnation in the same way Yea but if some Protestants should say there is peril of Damnation to live and die in the Roman Faith their saying is nothing in comparison of the number or worth of those that say there is none So A. C. again And beside they which say it are contradicted by their own more Learned Brethren Here A. C. speaks very confusedly But whether he speak of Protestants or Romanists or mixes both the matter is not great For as for the Number and Worth of men they are no necessary Concluders for Truth Not Number for who would be judged by the Many The time was when the Arrians were too many for the Orthodox Not Worth simply for that once misled is of all other the greatest misleader And yet God forbid that to Worth weaker men should not yield in difficult and Perplexed Questions yet so as that when Matters Fundamental in the Faith come in Question they finally rest upon an higher and clearer certainty than can be found in either Number or Weight of men Besides if you mean your own Party you have not yet proved your Party more worthy for Life of Learning than the Protestants Prove that first and then it will be time to tell you how worthy many of your Popes have been for either Life or Learning As for the rest you may blush to say it For all Protestants unanimously agree in this That there is great peril of Damnation for any man to live and die in the Roman perswasion And you are not able to produce any one Protestant that ever said the contrary And therefore that is a most notorious slander where you say that they which affirm this peril of Damnation are contradicted by their own more Learned Brethren Num. 7 And thus having cleared the way against the Exceptions of A. C. to the two former Instances I will now proceed as I promised to make this farther appear that A. C. and his Fellows dare not stand to that ground which is here laid down Namely That in Point of Faith and Salvation it is safest for a man to take that way which the Adversary Confesses to be true or whereon the differing Parties agree And that if they do stand to it they must be forced to maintain the Church of England in many things against the Church of Rome And first I Instance in the Article of our Saviour Christs Descent into Hell I hope the Church of Rome believes this Article and withal that Hell is the place of the Damned so doth the Church of England In this then these dissenting Churches agree Therefore according to the former Rule yea and here in Truth too 't is safest for a man to believe this Article of the Creed as both agree That is that Christ descended in Soul into the Place of the Damned but this the Romanists will not endure at any hand For the School agree in it That the Soul of Christ in the time of his death went really no farther than in Limbum Patrum which is not the place of the Damned but a Region or Quarter in the upper part of Hell as they call it built up there by the Romanist without Licence of either Scripture or the Primitive Church And a man would wonder how those Builders with untempered Mortar found light enough in that dark Place to build as they have done Secondly I 'll instance in the Institution of the Sacrament in both kinds That Christ Instituted it so is confessed by both Churches and the Ancient Churches received it so is agreed by both Churches Therefore according to the former Rule and here in Truth too 't is safest for a man to receive this Sacrament in both kinds And yet here this Ground of A. C. must not stand for good no not at Rome but to receive in one kinde is enough for the Laity And the poor Bohemians must have a Dispensation that it may be lawful for them to receive the Sacrament as Christ commanded them And this must not be granted to them neither unless they will ackdowledge most opposite to Truth that they are not bound by Divine Law to receive it in both kinds And here their Building with untempered Mortar appears most manifestly For they have no shew to maintain this but the fiction of Thomas of Aquin That he which receives the Body of Christ receives also his Blood per ‖ concomitantiam by concomitancy because the Blood goes always with the Body of which Term Thomas was the first Author I can yet finde First then if this be true I hope Christ knew it And then why did he so unusefully institute it in both kinds Next if this be true Concomitancy accompanies the Priest as well as the People and then why may not he receive it in one kinde also Thirdly this is apparently not true For the Eucharist is a Sacrament Sanguinis effusi of Blood shed and poured out And Blood poured out and so severed from the Body goes not along with the Body per concomitantiam And yet Christ must rather erre or proceed I know not how in the Institution of the Sacrament in both kindes rather than the Holy unerring Church of Rome may do amiss in the Determination for it and the Administration of it in one kinde Nor will the Distinction That Christ instituted this as a Sacrifice to which both kinds were necessary serve the turn For suppose that true yet he instituted it as a Sacrament also or else that Sacrament had no Institution from Christ which I presume A. C. dares not affirm And that Institution which the Sacrament had from Christ was in both kindes And since here 's mention happen'd of Sacrifice my Third Instance shall be in the Sacrifice which is offer'd up to God in that Great and High Mystery of our Redemption by the death of Christ. For as Christ offer'd up himself once for all a full and all-sufficient Sacrifice for the sin of the whole world So did He Institute and Command a Memory of this Sacrifice in a Sacrament even till his coming again For at and in the Eucharist we offer up to God three Sacrifices One by the Priest onely that 's the Commemorative Sacrifice of Christs Death represented in Bread broken and Wine poured out Another by the Priest and the People joyntly and that is the Sacrifice of Praise and Thanksgiving for all the Benefits and Graces we receive by the precious death of Christ. The Third by every particular man for himself onely and that is the Sacrifice of every mans Body and Soul to serve
of Hell had prevailed against it which our Saviour assures me S. Matth. 16. they shall never be able to do But that all General Councels be they never so lawfully called continued and confirmed have Infallible Assistance I utterly deny 'T is true that a General Councel de post facto after 't is ended and admitted by the whole Church is then Infallible for it cannot erre in that which it hath already clearly and truly determined without Errour But that a General Councel à parte ante when it first sits down and continues to deliberate may truly be said to be Infallible in all its after-determinations whatsoever they shall be I utterly deny And it may be it was not without cunning that A. C. shuffled these words together Called Continued and Confirmed for be it never so lawfully called and continued it may erre But after 't is confirmed that is admitted by the whole Church then being found true it is also Infallible that is it deceives no man For so all Truth is and is to us when 't is once known to be Truth But then many times that Truth which being known is necessary and Infallible was before both contingent and fallible in the way of proving it and to us And so here a General Councel is a most probable but yet a fallible way of inducing Truth though the Truth once induced may be after 't is found necessary and Infallible And so likewise the very Councel it self for that particular in which it hath concluded Truth But A. C. must both speak and mean of a Councel set down to deliberate or else he says nothing Num. 15 Now hence A. C. gathers That though every thing defined to be a Divine Truth in General Councels is not absolutely necessary to be expresly known and actually believed as some other Truths are by all sorts yet no man may after knowledge that they are thus defined doubt deliberately much less obstiuately deny the Truth of any thing so defined Well in this Collection of A. C. First we have this granted That every thing defined in General Councels is not absolutely necessary to be expresly known and actually believed by all sorts of men And this no Protestant that I know denies Secondly it is affirmed that after knowledge that these Truths are thus defined no man may doubt deliberately much less obstinately deny any of them Truly Obstinately as the word is now in common use carries a fault along with it And it ought to be far from the temper of a Christian to be obstinate against the Definitions of a General Councel But that he may not upon very probable grounds in an humble and peaceable manner deliberately doubt yea and upon Demonstrative grounds constantly deny even such Definitions yet submitting himself and his grounds to the Church in that or another Councel is that which was never till now imposed upon Believers For 'T is one thing for a man deliberately to doubt and modestly to propose his Doubt for satisfaction which was ever lawful and is many times necessary And quite another thing for a man upon the pride of his own Judgment to refuse external Obedience to the Councel which to do was never Lawful nor can ever stand with any Government For there is all the reason in the world the Councel should be heard for it self as well as any such Recusant whatsoever and that before a Judge as good as it self at least And to what end did S. Augustine say That one General Councel might be amended by another the former by the Later if men might neither deny nor so much as deliberately doubt of any of these Truths defined in a General Councel And A. C. should have done well to have named but one ancient Father of the Primitive Church that ever affirmed this For the Assistance which God gives to the whole Church in general is but in things simply necessary to eternal Salvation therefore more than this cannot be given to a General Councel no nor so much But then if a General Councel shall forget it self and take upon it to define things not absolutely necessary to be expresly known or actually believed which are the things which A. C. here speaks of In these as neither General Councel no◠the whole Church have infallible Assistance so have Christians liberty modestly and peaceably and upon just grounds both deliberately to doubt and constantly to deny such the Councels Definitions For instance the Councel of Florence first defined Purgatory to be believed as a Divine Truth and matter of Faith if that Councel had Consent enough so to define it This was afterwards deliberately doubted of by the Protestants after this as constantly denied then confirmed by the Councel of Trent and an Anathema set upon the head of every man that denies it And yet scarce any Father within the first three hundred years ever thought of it Num. 16 I know Bellarmine affirms it boldly That all the Fathers both Greek and Latine did constantly teach Purgatory from the very Apostles times And where he brings his Proofs out of the Fathers for this Point he divides them into two Ranks In the first he reckons them which affirm Prayer for the dead as if that must necessarily infer Purgatory Whereas most certain it is that the Ancients had and gave other Reasons of Prayer for the dead then freeing them out of any Purgatory And this is very Learnedly and at large set down by the now Learned Primate of Armagh But then in the second he says there are most manifest places in the Fathers in which they affirm Purgatory And he names there no fewer then two and twenty of the Fathers A great Jury certainly did they give their Verdict with him But first within the three hundred years after Christ he names none but Tertullian Cyprian and Origen And Tertullian speaks expresly of Hell not of Purgatory S. Cyprian of a Purging to Amendment which cannot be after this Life As for Origen he I think indeed was the first Founder of Purgatory But of such an One as I believe Bellarmine dares not affirm For he thought there was no Punishment after this life but Purgatory and that not onely the most impious men but even the Devils themselves should be saved after they had suffered and been Purged enough Which is directly contrary to the Word of God expounded by his Church In the fourth and fifth the great and Learned Ages of the Church he names more as S. Ambrose But S. Ambr. says That some shall be saved quasi per ignem as it were by fire leaving it as doubtful what was meant by that Fire as the Place it self doth whence it is taken 1 Cor. 3. S. Hierome indeed names Purging by fire But 't is not very plain that he means it after this life And howsoever this is most plain That S. Hierome is
edification of the Church Now if he do mean to prove the Pope's Infallibility by this place in his Pastoral Judgement Truly I do not see how this can possibly be collected thence Christ gave some to be Apostles for the Edification of his Church Therefore S. Peter and all his Successors are Infallible in their Pastoral Judgement And if he mean to prove the Continued Visible Succession which he saith is to be found in no Church but the Romane there 's a little more shew but to no more purpose A little more shew Because it is added Vers. 13. That the Apostles and Prophets c. shall continue at their work and that must needs be by Succession till we all meet in unity and perfection of Christ. But to no more purpose For 't is not said that they or their Successors should continue at this work in a personal uninterrupted Succession in any one Particular Church Romane or other Nor ever will A. C. be able to prove that such a Succession is necessary in any one particular place And if he could yet his own words tell us the Personal Succession is nothing if the Faith be not brought down without change from Christ and his Apostles to this day and so to the end of the world Now here 's a piece of Cunning too The Faith brought down unchanged For if A. C. mean by the Faith the Creed and that in Letter 't is true the Church of Rome hath received and brought down the Faith unchanged from Christ and his Apostles to these our days But then 't is apparently false That no Church differing from the Romane in Doctrine hath kept that Faith unchanged and that by a visible and continued Succession For the Greek Church differs from the Romane in Doctrine and yet hath so kept that Faith unchanged But if he mean by the Faith unchanged and yet brought down in a continual visible Succession not onely the Creed in Letter but in Sense too And not that onely but all the Doctrinal Points about the Faith which have been Determined in all such Councels as the present Church of Rome allows as most certainly he doth so mean and 't is the Controversie between us then 't is most certain and most apparent to any understanding man that reads Antiquity with an impartial eye that a Visible Continual Succession of Doctors and Pastors have not brought down the Faith in this sence from Christ and his Apostles to these days of ours in the Romane Church And that I might not be thought to say and not to prove I give instance And with this that if A. C. or any Jesuite can prove That by a Visible Continued Succession from Christ and his Apostles to this day either Transubstantiation in the Eucharist Or the Eucharist in one kinde Or Purgatory Or worship of Images Or the Intention of the Priest of necessity in Baptism Or the Power of the Pope over a General Councel Or his Infallibility with or without it Or his Power to depose Princes Or the publike Prayers of the Church in an unknown tongue with divers other Points have been so taught I for my part will give the Cause Beside for Succession in the general I shall say this 'T is a great happiness where it may be had Visible and Continued and a great Conquest over the Mutability of this present world But I do not finde any one of the Ancient Fathers that makes Local Personal Visible and Continued Succession a Necessary Signe or Mark of the true Church in any one place And where Vincentius Lirinensts calls for Antiquity Universality and Consent as great Notes of Truth he hath not one word of Succession And for that great place in Irenaeus where that Ancient Father reckons the Succession of the Bishops of Rome to Eleutherius who sate in his time and saith That this is a most full and ample proof or Ostension Vivificatricem Fidem that the Living and Life-giving Faith is from the Apostles to this day Conserved and delivered in Truth And of which place Bellarmine boasts so much Most manifest it is in the very same place that Irenaeus stood as much upon the Succession of the Churches then in Asia and of Smyrna though that no prime Apostolical Church where Polycarpus sate Bishop as of the Succession at Rome By which it is most manifest that it is not Personal Succession onely and that tyed to one Place that the Fathers meant but they taught that the Faith was delivered over by Succession in some places or other still to their present time And so doubtless shall be till Time be no more I say The Faith But not every Opinion true or false that in tract of time shall cleave to the Faith And to the Faith it self and all it's Fundamentals we can shew as good and full a Succession as you And we pretend no otherwise to it than you do save that We take in the Greeks which you do not Only we reject your gross Superstitions to which you can shew no Succession from the Apostles either at Rome or else-where much less any one uninterrupted And therefore he might have held his peace that says It is evident that the Roman Catholike Church only hath had a Constant and uninterrupted Succession of Pastors and Doctors and Tradition of Doctrine from Age to Age. For most evident it is That the Tradition of Doctrine hath received both Addition and Alteration since the first five hundred years in which Bellarmine confesses and B. Jewel maintains the Churches Doctrine was Apostolical Num. 8 And once more before I leave this Point Most evident it is That the Succession which the Fathers meant is not tyed to Place or Person but 't is tyed to the Verity of Doctrine For so Tertullian expresly Beside the order of Bishops running down in Succession from the beginning there is required Consanguinitas Doctrinae that the Doctrine be allyed in blood to that of Christ and his Apostles So that if the Doctrine be no kinnâ— to Christ all the Succession become strangers what nearness soever they pretend And Irenaeus speaks plainer than he We are to obey those Presbyters which together with the Succession of their Bishopricks have received Charisma Veritatis the gift of truth Now Stapleton being press'd hard with these two Authorities first Confesses expresly That Succession as it is a Note of the true Church is neither a Succession in place onely nor of Person onely but it must be of true and sound Doctrine also And had he stayed here no man could have said better But then he saw well he must quit his great Note of the Church-Succession That he durst not doe Therefore he begins to cast about how he may answer these Fathers and yet maintain Succession Secondly therefore he tells us That that which these Fathers say do nothing weaken Succession but that it shall still be a main Note of the true
question but to make them ready against they understood it And as School-Masters make their Scholars conne their Grammar-Rules by heart that they may be ready for their use when they better understand them NUM â—0 * L. 1. cont Epis. 〈◊〉 c. ◠〈…〉 non credâ—râ—m E 〈…〉 â—isi me catholiâ—â— Ecclesiâ— commâ—veret Authoritâ—◠†Occham Diaâ— p. 1 L. â— c. 4. Intelligitur solum dâ— Ecclesi◠〈◊〉 â—uit â—â—â—pore Apostolorum ‖ Bâ—el lect 22. in C. Missâ— A tempore Christi Apostolorum c. And so doth S. Aug. take â—ccles 〈…〉 a Fâ—â—d * â— 16. Nâ— 6. * Sâ—ve Inâ—ideles â—ive in Fide Novitii Can. Loc. L. 2. c. 8. Neganti aut omninò neÌ„sciâ—â—ti Scripturam Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. q. 1. A. 3. †Quid si fateamur Fideles etiam Ecclesiae Authoritate commâ—ueri ut Scriptur as recipiant Non tamen inde sequitur â—oâ— hoc modo penitus persuaderi aut nullâ— aliâ— fortioréâ—ue ratione induci Quis antem Christianus est quem Ecclesia Christi commendans Scripturam Coristi non commâ—â—â—at Whitaker Dâ—sp de sacrâ Scripturâ Contrâ— 1. â— 3. â— 8. ubi citat locum â—anc S. Aug. ‖ Et 〈◊〉 Quibus â—â—â—emperaâ—â— dicentibus Credite Evangâ—â—io Therefore he speaks of himself when he did not believe * â—â—â—tum est quod teneâ—â—â— credere omnibus 〈…〉 in Sacro Canonâ— quia Ecclesia credit â—x ea ratione solum Ergo per prius magis tâ—â—â—â—uâ— Credere Ecclesiae quà m Evangâ—â—â—â— Aâ—tt 〈…〉 n. in 3 Dist. 24. Conclus 6. â—â—â— 6. And to make a shew of proof for this he â—alsifies S. August most notoriously and reads that known place not Niâ—◠〈◊〉 commoâ—â—râ—â— at all read it â—â—â— râ—mâ—elleret Pateâ— quiae dicit Augustinus Evangelio non Credereâ— nisi ad â—oâ— me compellâ—ret Ecclesiâ— Authoritas Ibid. And so also Gerson reads it in Declarat veritatum quâ— crâ—dendâ— sunt c. part 1. p. 414. §. 3. But in a most ancient Manuscript in Corp. Chr. Colledge Library in Cambridge the words are Nisi me commovâ—râ—t c. †Câ—â—â—n L. â— de Lâ—câ—â— c. 8. fol. 34. ◠§. 16. Num. 6. * Psal. 119 10â— Sâ—â—ctarum Scripturarum Lumen S. Aug. L. de verâ Relig. c. â— Quid 〈◊〉 Scripturum vanis umbris c. S. August â— dâ— Mâ—r. Eccl. Cathol â—35 * 1 Cor. 2. 14. †Orig. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. 1. went this way yet was he a great deal nearer the prime Tradition than we are For being to prove that the Scriptures were inspired from God he saith Dâ—â—oc â—ssigâ—abimus â—x ipsis Diviâ—is Scripturis quâ— nos compâ—â—â—â—tâ—r moâ—â—riâ—t c. ‖ Princip 〈…〉 â—â—â—â—m hîc credimus propter Dâ—â—m non Apostolâ—s c. Hâ—nr à â—and Sum. A. 9. q. 3. Now if where the Apostoles themselves spake ultimate resolutio Fidei was in Deum not in ipsos per se much more shall it be in Deum than in prâ—sentem Ecclesiâ—â— and into the writings of the Apostles than into the words of their Successors made up into a Tradition * Calv. Instit. 1. c. 5. §. 2. Christiana Ecclesia Prophetarum scriptis Apostolorum praedicatione initio fundata â—uit â—â—icunque reperietur eâ— Doctrina c. * And where Hooker uses this very Argument as he doth L. 3. §. 8. his words are not If there be sufficient Light But if that Light be Evident †1 Cor. 2. 14. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb. 11. 1. †§. 16. Nâ— 13. ‖ Heb. 11. 1. * 1 Cor. 13. 12. And A. C. confesies p. 52. That this very thing in Question may be known infallible when 't is known but obscurely Et Scotus in 3. Dist. 23. q. 1 fol. 41. B. Hoc modo facile est videre quomocò Fides est cum aenigmate obscuritate Quis Habitus Fidei non credit Articulum esse verum ex Evidentiâ— Objecti sed propter boc quod assentit veratitati infundentis Habitum in hoc revelantis Credibilia †Bellar. l. 3. de Eccles. c. 14. Credere ullas esse divinas Scripturas non est omninò necessarium ad salutem I will not break my Discourse to â—iâ—â—e this speech of Bellarmine it is bad enough in the best sense that favour it self can give it For if he mean by omninò that it is not altogether or simply necessary to believe there is Divine Scripture and a written Word of God that 's false that being granted which is among all Christians That there is a Scripture And God would never have given a Supernatural unnecessary thing And if he means by omninò that it is not in any wise necessary then it is sensibly false For the greatest upholders of Tradition that ever were made the Scripture very ncessary in all the Ages of the Church So it was necessary because it was given and given because God thought it necessary Besides upon Roman Grounds this I think will follow That which the Tradition of the present Church delivers as necessary to believe is omninò necessary to salvation But that there are Divine Scriptures the Tradition of the present Church delivers as necessary to believe Therefore to believe there are Divine Scriptures is omninò be the sense of the word what it can necessary to Salvation So Bellarmine is herein â—oul and unable to stand upon his own ground And he is the more partly because he avouches this Proposition for truth after the New Testament written And partly because he might have seen the state of this Proposition carefully examined by Gandavo and distinguished by times Sum. p. 1. A. 8. q. 4. sine * Lib. 1. §. 14. †Protest Apol. Tract 1. §. 10. N. 3. * L. 2. §. 4. †L. 2. §. 7. L. 3. §. 8. ‖ S. Joh. 5. 31. He speaks of himself as man S. Joh. 8. 13. * L. 2. §. 7. * L. 3. §. 8. A. C. p. 52. A. C. p. 52. A. C. p. 52. * S. Luke 16. 8. †1 S. Pet. 5. 3. ‖ S. Basil goes as far for Traditions as any For he says Parem vim habent ad pietatem L. de Sp. Sanct. c. 27. But first he speaks of Apostolical Tradition not of the Tradition of the present Church Secondly the Learned take exceptions to this Book of S. Basil as corrupted Bp. Aâ—dr Opuse cont Peron p. 9. Thirdly S. Basil himself Ser. de Fido prosesses that he uses sometimes Agrapha sed ea solùm quae non sunt aliena à piâ secundum Scripturam sententiá So he makes the Scripture their Touch-stone or tryal And therefore must of Necessity make Scripture superior in as much as that which is able to try another is of greater force and superior Dignity in that use than the thing tried by it And Stapleton himself confesses Traditionem recentiorem posteriorem sicut particularem nullo modo cum Scripturâ vel cum Traditionibus priùs à se explicatis comparandâ—m esse Stapleton Relect.
fidem non dederunt Non ab Imperatore Sigismundo Ille enim dedit fidem sed non violavit Ibid. §. 7. But all men know that the Emperor was used by the Fathers at Constance to bring Husse thither Sigismundus Hussum Constantiam vocat missis Litaris publicâ fide cavet mense Octob. Anno 1414. c. Edit in 16. Et etiamsi Primò graviter tulit Hussi in carcerationem tamen cum dicerent Fidem Haereticis non esse servandam non modò â—â—mi sit Offensionem sed primus â—â—â—rbè in eum pronunci avit Ibid. This is a mockery And Becaâ—us his Argument is easily turned upon himself For if the Fathers did it in cunning that the Emperor should give Safe-conduct which themselves meant not to keep then they broke Faith And if the Emperor knew they would not keep it then he himself broke faith in giving a Safe-Conduct which he knew to be invalid And as easie it is to answer what Becanus adds to save that Councels Act could I stay upon it Fides Haereticis data servanda non est sicut nec Tyrannis Piratis caeteris publicis praedonibus c. Simanca Iustit Tit. 46. §. 51. And although Becanus in the place above cited §. 13. confidently denies that the Fathers at Constance decreod No saith to be kept with Hereticks and cites the words of the Councel Sess. 19. yet there the very words themselves â—ave it thus Posse Concitium eos punire c. etiamsi de salvo conductu confisi ad locum vinerint Judicii c. And much more plainly Simanca Instit. 46. §. 52. Jure igitur Haeretici quidam gravissimo Concilii Constantiensis Judicio legitimâ flammâ concremati sunt quamvis promissa illis securit as fuisset So they are not only Protestants which charge the Councel of Constance with this Nor can Becanus say as he doth Afferâ—ant uno consensu omnes Catholici fidem Haeâ—eticis servandam esse For Simanca denies it And he quotes others for it which A. C. would be â—oath should not be accounted Catholikes But how faithfully Simanca says the one or Becanus the other let them take it between them and the Reader be judge In the mean time the very Title of the Canon of the Councel of Constance Sess. 19. is this Quod non abstantibus salvis conductibus Imperatoris Regum c. possit per Judicem competentem de Haeretica pravitate inquiri ‖ For so much A. C. confesses p. 4â— For if they should give way to the altering of one then why not of another and another and so of all And â—he Trent-Fathers in a great point of Doctrine being amazed and not knowing what to answer to a Bishop of their own yet were resolved not to part with their common error Certum tamen erat Doctrinam eam non probare sed quam antea didicissent firmitèr teâ—ere c. Hist. Con. Trid. L. 2 p. 277 Edit Leyd â—6â—2 A. C. p. 57. †Biseeching God to inspire continually the Universal Church with the Spirit of Truth Unity and Concord c. In the Prayer for the Militant Church And in the third Collect on Good-Friday A. C. p. 57. * Campian Praesat Rationibus praefixâ †§. 26. Nu. 1. * §. 21. N. 6. †Modo ea quae ad Cathedram pertinent recta praecipiant S. Hier. Ep. 236. ‖ L. 4. Instit. c. 1. § 13 c. * Ep. 48. A malis piscibus corde semper moribus seâ—arantâ—â— c. corporalem separationem in littore marie hoc est in fine saetuli expectant †Vix ullum peccatum sola Haerest exceptâ cogitati potest quo illa Sedes turpiter maculata non fuerit maximè ab Anno 800. Relect. Cont. 1. q 5. Art 3. ‖ Biel. in Can. Miss Lect. 23. * Stel in S. Luc. c. 22. Almain in 3. Sent. d. 24. q. 1. fine Multae sunt Decretales berâ—ticae c. And so they erred as Popes * Eph. 1. 23. * S. Aug. Epist. 50. Et itâ—rum Columbae non sunt qui Ecclesiam dissipant Accipitres sunt Milvi sunt Nâ—â—â—aniâ—â— Columba c. S. Aug. tract 5. iâ— S. John A. C. p. 55. A. C. p. 56. †3 Reg. 12. 27. a Hos. 4. 15. b Super Haereticis prona intelligentia est S. Hier. Ibid. c Non tamâ—â— cessavit Deus populum hunc arguâ—râ— per Prophetas Nam ibi extiterunt Magni illâ— insignes Prophetae Elias Elizaeus c. S Aug. L. 17. de Civit. Dei â— 22. Multi religiosè intra se Dâ—i cultum babebant c. De quo numero â—â—â—â—mve Posteris septem illa â—illiâ— fuissâ—â—tatuo qâ—â— iâ— Persecutione sub Aâ—habâ— Deum siâ—i aâ— Idâ—lolatrâ—â— immunes reservârunt nec genua ante Baal flexerunt Fran. Monceius L. 1. de Vit. Aureo c. 12. d 3 Reg. 17. sub Achaâ—o e 4 Reg. 3. sub Jehoram â—ilio Achabi f 3 Reg. 19 18. g Hos. 9. 17. * 4 Reg. 9. 6. * Non â—portuit ad hoc eâ—s vocare qâ—um Authoritas fuâ—rit publicaâ—di apud Ecclesiam Romanam prâ—â—ipâ—è cum unicuique etiam particulari Ecclesiae liâ—â—at id quod Catholicum est promâ—lgare Alb. Magn. in 1. Dest 11. A. 9. * Non â—â—rare convâ—â—it Popae â—t est Caput â—â—â—â—aâ— L. â— de Rom. Poâ—t c. 3. †L. 2. de Câ—riâ—tâ— c. 〈◊〉 â— Quande auâ—â—m So you cannot find Records of your own Truthe which are far more likely to be kept but when Errors are eâ—ept 〈◊〉 wâ— must be bound to tell the place and the time and I know not what of their Beginnings or else they are â—ot Errors As if some Errors might not want a Record as well as some Truth †Omninò rectè nisi excepisset c. Net consideravit quanti referat concederi Ecclesiis particularibus jus condendorum Canonum de Fide inconsultâ Romanâ Sede quod nunquam licuit nunquant factum est c. Capel de Appellat Eccl. Africanae c. 2. Nu. 12. ‖ Rex coâ—â—itetur se voensse Concilium tertium Tolet anum Quia dâ—â—â—rsâ—s retro temporibus Haeresis immineâ—s in tota Eclesia Catholica agere Synodica Negotia denegabat c. Concâ—l Toleâ—an tertium Can. 1. S. James 1. 20. * §. 24. Nu. 2. †Nole tamen dicere quin in multis partibus possit Ecclesia per suas partes reformari Imò hoc necesse esset sed ad hoc agendum sufficerent Concilia Provincialia c. Gerson Tract de Gen. Concil unius obedientiae parte 1. p. 222. F. ‖ Omnes Ecclesiae status aut in Generali Concilio reformetis aut in Concilus Provincialibus reformari mandetâ—s Gerson Declarat Defectuum Virorum Ecclesiasticorum par 1. pag. 209. B. * Concil Rom. 2. sub Sylvestro †Concil Gang. Can. 1. ‖ Con. Carth. 1. Can. 1. * Con. Aquiliens †Con. Carth. 2. Can. 1. * Quaedam de causis fidei unde nunc Quaestio
of the principal Contents A AFricanes their opposing the Romane Church and separating from it 112. c. they are cursed and damned for it by Eulalius and this accepted by the Pope Ibid. S. Augustine involved in that curse 113 Ja. Almain against the Popes Infallibility 172. his absurd Tenet touching the belief of Scripture and the Church 53 Alphonsus à Castro his confession touching the Popes fallibility 173 his moderation touching heresie 17. his late Editions shrewdly purged 173 S. Anselme Archbishop of Canterbury how esteemed of by Pope Urban the second 111 Apocrypha some Books received by the Trent-Fathers which are not by Sextus Senensis 218 Of Appeals to forreign Churches 110 111 112. no Appeal from Patriarchs or Metropolitans ib. Aristotle falsly charged to hold the mortality of the Soul 72 Arrians the large spreading of them 179. wherein they dissented from the Orthodox Christians 201 Assistance what promised by Christ to his Church what not 60 106 c. 151 c. what given to his Church and Pastors thereof 62 64 156 157 166 233 Assurance infallible even by humane proof 80 81 S. Augustine cleared 22 37 38 53 54 82 110 123 c. righted 89 158 159 229 his proofs of Scripture 65 The Author bis small time to prepare for this conference 15. his submission to the Church of England and the Church Catholike 150 151. the Rule of his faith 246. pride imputed to him and retorted upon the imputors 246 247 B BAptism of anointing use of spittle and three dippings in it 44. that of Infants how proved out of Scripture 36 37. acknowledged by some Romanists that it may be proved thence 37. the necessity of it 36. how proved by tradition and S. Augustine's minde therein 37 38. that by Hereticks Schismaticks and Sinners not theirs but Christs 195 S. Basil explained 59 Beatitude supreme how to be attained 73 Belief of some things necessary before they be known 51. Vid. Faith Bellarmine his cunning discovered and confuted 7 8 9 136 his dissent from Stapleton 26. and from Catharinus 32 his absurd and impious tenet touching belief of Scripture confuted 56 Berengarius his gross recantation 214 S. Bernard righted 88 89 Biel his true assertion touching things that be de Fide 252 Bishops their calling and authority over the Inferious Clergy 114 115. their places and precedencies ordered Ibid. the titles given them of old 110. all of the same merit and degree 131 Bodies representing and represented their power priviledges c. compared together 150 c. 171 Britanny of old not subject to the Sea of Rome 111 112. S. Gildas his testimony concerning the Antiquity of the conversion of it 203. and that testimony vindicated ibid. C CAlvin and Calvinists for the Real presence 191 c. 193 Campanella his late Eclogue 138 Campian his boldness 94 Canterbury the ancient place and power of the Archbishops thereof 111 112 Capellus his censure of Batonius 98 Certainty vid. Faith Certainty of Salvation vid. Salvation Christs descent into Hell vid. Descent Church whereon founded 8 9. wherein it differeth from a General Councel 18 no particular one infallible 3 4 58 59 c. not that of Rome 3 4 6 7 c. 11 12. Catholike Church which is it 203. c. her declarations what fundamental what not 20. how far they binde 20 21. her authority not divine 22. not in those things wherein she cannot erre 42. wherein she cannot universally erre 90 91 104 157. what can take holiness from her 91 92. in what points of faith she may erre 104 105. her errours corruptions how and by whom caused 126. what required of her that she may not erre 127. she in the Common-wealth not the Common-wealth in her 132 c. how she must be always visible 207. the invisible in the visible 90. of her double Root 240 241. what the opinion of the Ancients concerning it 237 238 c. 240. A Church and the Church how they differ 82 83 84 c. by what assistance of the Spirit the Church can be made infallible 58. the authority of the Primitive compared with that of the present Church 52 Church of Caesarea her title given by Gregory Naz. 110 Greek Church vid. G. Church of England a part of the Catholike 104 c. where her Doctrine is set down 32 33. her Motherly dealing with her Children ibid. her Articles and Canons maintained 33. of her positive and negative Articles 34 35. her purity 245. how safe to communicate with her 243. what Judges and Rules in things spiritual she hath and acknowledgeth 138. how she is wronged by the Romane 204. Salvation more certain in her than in the Romane 212 c. How one particular Church may judge another 108 c. mutual criminations of the Eastern and Western 116 A Church in Israel after her separation from Judah 97 Church of Rome wherein she hath erred 12 58. sometimes right not so now 85. though she be a true Church yet not Right or Orthodox 82 83. her want of charity 16 17. her determining of too many things the cause of many evils 30 33. her severity in cursing all other Christians 33 34. how fâ—â— she extendeth the authority of her testimony 41. her rash condemning of others 90 92. how she and how other Churches Apostolike 242. how corrupted in Doctrine and Manners 95 96. she not the Catholike Church 120 240 241. false titles given her 237. her belief how different from that of the ancient Church 213. other Churches as well as she called Matres and Originales Ecclesiae 237. A Church at Jerusalem Antioch and probably in England before one at Rome 103. Cardinal Peron his absurd tent that the Romane Church is the Catholike causally 104. vid. Errours Pope Rome Concomitancy in the Eucharist vid. Eucharist Conference the occasion of this 1 2 the Jesuites manner of dealing in this and in two former 311 Confessions Negative made by Churches in what case needful 101 Controversies that in them consent of parties is no proof of truth 188 190 198 c. Counsels their fallibility 150 158 162 163 c. 225. the infallibility they have is not exact but congruous infallibility 166. whence and where it is principally resident 166 172. none of the present Church absolutely infallible 59. confirmation of them by the Pope a Romane novelty 128. who may dispute against them who not 22 25. how inferiours may judge of their decrees 161. a general Councel the onely fit judge of the present Controversies 136 139. and how that to be qualified 99 101 127 145 146 c. the Bishop of Rome not always President in general Councels 140 141. what impediments have been and now are of calling and continuing them 129. what confirmation they need 127 128 147. what of them lawful what not 141 c. what obedience to be yielded to them erring 146 147 168 169 c. what 's the utmost they can do 20. the words Visum est