deem Than other places this though strange it seem I can prove true for in the Gospel day Distinctions of this kind are done away Cathederal It seems then I no holier am then thou In thy conceit but Scripture doth us show There 's holy ground as well as ground prophane Place where God will be worship'd and again Place where he will no Sacrifice accept But th'Off'rer and th' Oblation both reject Jayle The Scripture shews that such esteem there WAS Of Place but shews that such esteem should pass Away from Christians wherefore I say Thy Ground or Place no holier is this day Than other places wherefore every where Men may with holy hearts in prayer appear Cathederal My Place must needs be holy for this cause It builded was therein to teach Gods Laws It consecrated was also by those Whom God to minister his Word there chose So was not every place then thou dost ill Thus to compare thy Place with this my Hill Jayle Were all this proved which thou never can Yet mine 's as holy seeing such a man As Christ hath sanctifi'd each place so far As therein he 'll accept of holy Prayer And Paul i' th Jayle at Midnight sang an Hymn Such as few singers ever sang in thine Cathederal Well I perceive I must with thee engage In a Religious contest ere this Age Doth terminate Then let us now propose The Point to be Disputed and then close In Argument The Question then shall he About the Church Whether 't be Me or Thâ—e Jayle No Question like to this the Church once found Will for our finding all Truth prove a Ground So clear that we no Truth shall need to know But she will strait be ready it to show Then fit thy self thy Church for to maintain For that 's the thing I question to be plain Cathederal Dost question that then that will I defend Against thy Opposition Now descend To some particularities that we The reason of thy doubt may fully see And fairely Answer Then let 's see the ground Thou hast to prove thy Church and Doctrine sound Jayle Well then the first place where I shall detect thee For no true Church now let who can protect thee Is thy Minority or want of Age To be esteemed for that Matron sage Espous'd to Christ 'bove sixteen hundred years Ago whilst thou as yesterday appears Cathederal Blis me Did ever any creature know A Jayl that had a more unshamefac'd brow Than thou in this What do not I well know ye To be of Leidens breed of Munster trow ye For shame leave talking of Antiquity Thou art in no respect so old as I. Jayle Alas I see thou knowst me not i' th least Whilst thou deriv'st my line from that mad beast Of Munster ' gainst whose pranks I did protest Even in those dayes as Cassander hath prest Me forth in Print and sith he doth acquit me Thy Callumny in this case cannot hit me Cathederal What wilt deny thy Father do not each My Pulpits sound thee forth when there I preach For such an Upstart Yea my Doctors all There shew thy Radix this their Volumns shall Attest yea th'Papists whom thou sayst acquit thee Say Munster as thy Patriarch befits thee Jayle Thy Doctors and the Papists sometimes say I am no older than that Germans fray Yet otherwhile they both confess I came Down from th'Apostls times now then for shame Insist not on their witness which appears In its Concordance like two Dogs by th' ears Cathederal Sure thou dost wrong both Papists and my Men Beware how thou dost thus imploy thy Pen For if thou shew not from sufficient ground Where they themselvs in this case thus confound I will requite thee as a false accuser And of these reverend Clerks a great abuser Jayle First Willet in 's Synopsis Papismi Opposing Papists 'bout Antiquity Observes that Bernard names some Sectaries Who Pedobaptisme did much despise They 'r call'd Apostolicks because 't is thought From th'Postles times these Sectaries came out Cathederal I find that Willet speaks to this effect But those bore not the name of thy proud Sect Men may deny to baptize Infants so They may deny Believers Baptism too So then this Instance thee no way assists Vnless these men were prov'd Anabaptists Jayle The Papists in their Book of Motives say Th'Apostolicks were such as at this day Are called Anabaptists yea that name They do expresly give them and the same Thy old Friend Marbeck gives to some in Rome In Anno Dom. One hundred fifty one Cathedral I read these Books and must confess I find These things are so What then Thou art behind Some which do boast of their Antiqâ—ity From such like proves to wit the Papacy But yet all this cannot evince the truth Of their Church-state nor yet of thine forfooth Jayle If I no better Plea in this respect Can shew than th'Papists thou shalt me reject As one that 's noval but at present I Am not engag'd for my Antiquity 'T is thou O Minster which must now engage To prove thy self Christs Church in point of age Cathederal Come on I reason thus from Featly's mouth That Church is of full age whose Doctrine's Truth Perpetual unchanged and I say Such is my Doctrine wherefore now I may Conclude with him that thus my Church is true Thy Answer now bring forth to open view Jayle I do deny thy Minor and I say Thy Doctrine which gives enterance to thy way Of Church-ship is not true nor yet so old As in the Scriptures to be found enrol'd For thou without Christs Soul-converting Word Thy Church with carnal members hast bestor'd Cathederal 'T is true my Members now are wholly such When I receive them as no word can touch In order to Conversion yet I say The holy Scripture will evince my way Was not our Father Abra'm and his Seed Brought into one Church-state search now and read Jayle I search and find That unto every Nation To every Creature good news of Salvation For Faith and for Repentance must be taught Before into Christs Church they can be brought Contrary-wise 't is clear that Abr'ams Seed Had no such Obligation that we read Cathederal The Parents do believe and so the Child For Abra'ms Seed in Holy Writ are stil'd Gods Covenant which Abram is the same That 's made with us now therefore here again See how thou err'st making Parental-Faith So needful to let in to th'Churches Path. Jayle The Scripture shews most plain that Abrams Seed In Gospel-times are such as own his Creed Also the Scriptures quite dissolve that Plea Of Parent-interest in a Gospel-day The Jews are Abrams Seed and yet 't is plain That makes them not in 's Covenant remain Cathederal I tell thee Christian-Infants are as free To Gospel-Priviledges as we see The Children of the Jewes were in their time To Legal Rites thus doth my Doctrine shine And is most Antient being not deny'd Till such
O my Lord why am I busied here Thou knowst from war my heart and hands are clear And yet O Lord I pray thee teach me fight Couragiously that warfare which thy might Only can mannage sith it 's war Divine And Lord I thank thee that thou dost encline My heart and hand thereto and hast assisted My soul therein since what time I was listed Within thy Roll and in this undertaking I pray thee keâ—p my hand and mind from shaking That so the Truth with comely boldnesse I May practise preach write teach and testifie For Lord if Truth be Truth and still the same In nature worth and usefulness then blame Must be their Lot who are right bold to speak it In times of Peace and afterwards for sake it Because the times do turn O God forbid That I should for such cause let Truth lye hid In fleshly fears O God how great would le My shame when I thy glorious face shall see In that great Day the Day of final Sentence When none their loss regain can by Repentance The thoughts whereof O Lord doth give me boldness To speak for Truth though in a day of coldness Wherein the Waâ—ers are not more congeald Than mens cold Zeal hath all thy Laws repeal'd For what do they less than repeal thy Law Who of poor mortal flesh stand S O in awe As they 'l not act nor speak one word for thee But as great men do give them liberty But Lord I speak of Truth which all confess To be more worth than all that men possess But thou Lord know'st how doubtfull in this day It is become to find that blessed way Of Truth for though there 's nothing more pretended Yet surely there is nothing less befriended What one man saith is true another man Doth say is false yea even such as can Skill all the Sciences and Liberal Arts Are so divided into sects and parts That there 's no end of their most hot Divisions Yea such the multitude of their Confusions As thou Lord know'st cannot be lightly number'd And herewith Europe hath been greatly cumber'd What then shall I poor dust now signifie In Truth 's behalf will any think that I Have found this Pearl or can assign the Field Or Church which doth this precious Treasure yeeld Well whether I have found that Church or no Let him that readeth judge But this I 'll do I 'll shew the Church I 've found even the Truth Which I have fallen in love with from my youth That so if I be right another may By this means get some help into the way Of blessed Truth Or else if I be wrong throng Some one that 's right may break forth through the And sheâ— me that Old Way where Rest and Peace May be obtain'd that my own wayes may cease For is not this that which poor soules desire Where is the good Old Way others enquire Where 's blessed Sion Mother of the Saints Yea for a sight of her some hearts now faints Yea thou my soul remember canst the Dayes The Weeks the Months the Years and dolful wayes Wherein thou Pilgrim-like didst mournful walk And in thy Solitudes wouldst often talk With thy Creator by Pray'rs Vows and Tears That if he would but free thee of thy fears Which these crook'd wayes did minister to thee And of his Sion once but make thee free To set thy feet upon that holy Hill Then wouldst thou wholly yeeld up to his Will To be to do to suffer Gods good pleasure If he thereto would fill thee with his treasurâ— And now my soul what i' st wherein thy Lord Hath failed of in making good his Word In setting thy bound feet free from the band Of miry paths and in his blessed Land His dearest Church hath given thee a Station A dwelling place in his beloved Nation Yea thou a name and a rememberance Hast there obtain'd with an Inheritance So rich so full so ample every way That what it is no words can fully say Now then my soul see thou perform thy Vows Lest thy Engagements prove but empty Shows What Truth thou knowst the same communicate That others may thereof participate Remember how the Labours of the Saints In former times did much supply thy wants And so do still yea some the Seed-time knew And thou camst but to reap their Harvest true Yet thou a Seed-time with respect to those That are to follow must perhaps disclose Or at the least my Muse bring forth thy gains Which thou achieved hast by others pains That so the Sower and the Reaper may Rejoyce in mutual profiting that day Which shall in Praises to our Lord be spended And yet nor Day nor Praises shall be ended But now my Pen stay here and let us muse Upon the subject which thou must peruse Use seriousness for they are Divine things For the most part whereof thy Muse thus sings Gods precious Statutes are the chiefest Objects Implore his ayd in handling so great Projects To clear his Laws wherein men do abuse them And to declare how rightly they should use them Again there 's many things which thou here blam'st Speak of them seriously when thou them nam'st For some do deem as highly of those doings As of th' Apostles Precepts Walks or Goings Yea some are maâ—ked so they think those wayes Had their beginning in th' Apostles dayes As Pedorantisme and other things Which their procedure had from humane springs And whereas thy most weighty subject is About the Church that heavenly place of Bliss Deal clearly in this point for that indeed In this one Question lies both Fruit and Seed Defend her in thy place she 'l thee defend Yea God will him protect that is her Friend Dispute for Truth then will the Truth approve thee See to thy charge my Muse it doth behove thee Bear in thy mind the dayes wherein thy thought Was no way's like to that which I am taught More by Tradition humane than by those Instructions which the Scriptures do disclose This if thou do'st remember it may serve To lay thee low and in thy self preserve A due respect to those that do not see The errour of their way But if there be Any that do malitiously oppose The Truth see thou give them the sharper blows Fear not my Muse if Truth be on thy side As he which fanned Babel well hath cry'd That Truth is strongest by it thou wilt be Made Victor unto all Eternity My Muse sith thou a Prisoner art this day Because thou canst not walk in th' Minsters way Now therefore go thee forth in form of Jayle To Dispute with the Minster do not fail If she sound Reason with the Truth produce I do conjure thee make with her a Truce But if of these thou destitute dost find her Then freely of her fallacies remind her And if she mind thee not appeal to him Whom she pretends to serve and so come in To Goal again till Liberty from Heaven Thee
further to confer with her be given An Introduction shewing the occasion of the Dialogue Ensuing UPon a time I had in me a moâ—ion To take some cognizance of that Devotion Which in Old Lincoln's great Cathederal Is used in the way Prelatical Which I confess did outwardly appear Right glorious for to please both Eye and Ear. But when I call'd to mind the greatest end Of Divine Worship which is to amend Mans pravity by good edification I found that Worship a meer desolation One thing to me prodigious did appear Above the rest 't was two men which did wear Great Linnen Coats and one had on his back A Red Cloath ty'd as some men tye their Pack These did themselves divide from all the rest And walked Eastward bowing down their brest At certain places and obedience yeelded Vnto a cover'd Board which there was builded Where on a Cushon each man kneeled down And when their Arms on other two were thrown They seem'd to pray having their eyes cast down Upon two Printed Books where having shown Their skill in Reading he on th'right hand rose And turning West he did his Book unclose And therein read a Chapter which Paul wrote In th'second of the Corinths which I quote The rather for because methinks it might Have given these two Readers much more Light Than to have worship'd Wood or Cloth utensels Or ty'd themselves in Pray'rs to what mens pensels Had measur'd out This read some other things They also read and then a Black man brings Them off their stage bearing a silver Mace Before these white men to their former place Now when these Obsequies and Postulations Were finished then many made Orations Around the Quire but what was said or sung If I should say I know I should but wrong My self and them for there was such confusion Of Voices that wer 't Truth or wer't Delusion Nor hurt nor profit did thereof ensue To me sith what they said I no whit knew Yet these strang sights do cause me stil to wonder Why Prelates do against the Papists thunder So much because of Image-adoration For if that Wood or Stone built in the fashion Of Tables may adored be by Saints What lets the same when some like Men it prints Especially if Christ his form it beareth As reverend as a Table it appeareth Now having these mens doings thus far viewed I left them all within their stalls impued And having heard that some in Prison lay Because they could not close with that fine way of Worship I therefore anon repaired To see how these distressed persons fared And being come unto their lodging place I found the Prisoners with erected face To Heaven with their knees prostrate before The mighty God whom they did there adore With Pray'r and Praises which I understood And so far fervent that I gain'd some good By this Devotion for my cogitations Provoked were to heav'nly meditations And Christian conference with those distressed About the end reserv'd for all the Blessed These things I thought upon when home returned And in the sence thereof I partly mourned And partly did rejoyce I also thought How these things might into some form be brought For others and my own edification In Truth to stand and to have Preservation Somewhat by this means from the several snares Which do or may lye hid in Forms of Pray'rs And sith the Prison and the Minster were The places wherein I these Prayers did hear I therefore have the Conference compiled Between these two And now to be reviled For this my work it is my expectation From all such persons as in this our Nation Are preresolv'd to follow Mans Invention But hap as'twill that shall be no prevention To me from speaking Truth and more than that To speak if I do know 't my soul doth hate But now of time I 'll make no more expence But let the Goal begin the Conference The CONFERENCE CHAP. I. The Argument About Antiquity The Jayle doth first Dispute The Minster makes Repply The Jayle doth her Confute Jayle I Greet thee well thou great Cathederal Now shining in thy Form Prelatical Whilst others lye within my Cells because They can't conform to thy Prelatick Laws Whose case yet seemeth just and good to me Although 't is true they do dissent from thee Cathedral Is this a Jayle-like-greeting what 's the cause Thou thus declin'st thy work to take a pause About Religion and I further strange To hear the Jayle once intimate a Change 'Twixt her and me who wont with one consent All talk that 's too religious to prevent Jayle 'T is I even I thy old deluded Friend Which us'd to keep in hold whom thou didst send Without a due inquiry of their câ—use And now behold such as do keep God's Laws Thou hast again committed unto me And let'st the breakers of his Law go free Cathederal Fy my Old Friend It grieves me thus to hear Thee side with those who do against me bear So great an opposition that if they Should freely speak perhaps my glorious way Might get a blot now therefore I advise thee Be gon lest I for this attempt chastise thee Jayle Perswade me not for I 'm concern'd to know The Truth from Falshood full as much as thou Now therefore give me leave with thee to reason About Religion whil'st we have a season Wherein to do it for the day 's at hand We must give an account how here we stand Cathederal Thou reason 'bout Religion When didst thou Take thy degrees the Liberal Arts to know Thou art prophane and I a Holy Place Nor can I with thee reason ' thout disgrace Sith therefore thus I may my self abuse I think it best thy offer to refuse Jayle Religion is not ty'd to Humane Learning For this is plain to all men of discerning That God hath chose the foolish and the poor Of this world rich in Faith Yea furthermore It seem'd well-pleasing to the Lord that Babes Should see true Light whilest th'wise lie in dark shades Cathederal 'T is true the Scripture speaks of such a thing When first the Gospel-Light began to spring But since that time 't is said th'unlearned do The Scriptures wrest unto their overthrow And this O Jayle is like to be thy fate Unless thou keep thee to thy former state Jayle Th'unlearned and th'unstable ones which do The Scriptures wrest unto their overthrow Are Learned Jews and famous Athens Scholars And not the poor who are our Saviours followers Th' first Churches were unlearned yet had skiil In holy Writ to know Gods holy Will Cathederal My other reason may suffice though this Should fail the Disputation to dismiss Defile not then my place by thy intrusion Nor think thou here to vent thy new Delusion for each must know their place and keep the same Or else receive their due deserved blame Jayle I do presume no holiness can be A good pretence this Conference to flee Nor yet can I thy place more holy