to Saints To make an end of this authority there being in this matter as in all others to be distinguished what is Faith from what is Learning the first being no more then barely that 't is good and profitable to have recourse to the assistance of Saints To the last belonging many Questions in some ages more doubtful in some as truth opens to time and industry more setled but still remaining points of learning not faith I onely desire of you that you will please to be of that Faith in this Point which S. Austin plainly and unquestionably delivers in this very Book which being insisted on by your self I do not see you can offer less and promise I will expect no more Marry because in a point of School-learning he maintains an opinion now generally disallowed to infer he was against the practise of the Church because his Position in which he was wrong may be conceived opposite to it when he both plainly attests and approves the practice and uses much diligence and studie to reconcile his Position to it is a proceeding I had rather you should correct then I censure There follow two passages out of two Invectives of S. Greg. Naz. which I see are examples of Prosopopoeia and no more in them but doubt whether the following Assertion be stranger or the Connexion of it with a so that as if because S. Gregory above 300 years after Christ made use of a Rhetorical figure therefore in the first 200 yeers there was no Invocation of Saints To the thing it self I shall say no more then humbly desire you to beware of blind obedience and implicite faith of condemning and practising the same thing and if you will believe fallible men to beleeve the Fathers themselves and not what more fallible men tell you of them I would gladly know also what those you give so much credit to do bring to justifie themselves and their saying that in that time there was no Invocation I do not beleeve they produce any plain place which deny such practises were or were lawful to be used and conceive they either argue from the silence of some of them that there was no such thing because they say nothing of it which besides that it wildly supposes whatsoever was writ in these Ages came safely down to us is as much as to expect that whatever subject a man chuses for his Book he must treat of all things in it or else make use of perhaps their Errors in School points as the ignorance of souls departed the impossibility of commerce betwixt the next world and this c. to overthrow what they might as S. Austin long after clearly did held true even while they held these errors and this to say nothing of the injustice it does the Fathers to extend a mistake of theirs in a point of learning without sufficient ground to their faith too is in stead of discovering error by its opposition to truth to take the error for truth and then conclude the truth to be the error This kind of proceeding has strange luck to gain credit with so nice and piercing a judgement as yours What S. Austin says in the two following Citations is the very thing the Church beleevs and practises at this day and what whoever professes she is ready to imbrace in her sacred Communion it being the custom even at this day that Saints are not invocated at the Holy Sacrifice all the prayers there being purely addressed to God And for Petrus Gnaphaeus since you produce no reason why I should not I cannot see but Mr. Whites Observation is satisfactory beyond Reply Viz. That since his authority how great soever it were could not preserve him from being condemned of Heresie this fact could not have failed to peep among the rest of his Heresies had the Church not found it consonant to her faith The last is from S. Ambrose then which I never saw any thing more wretchedly mangled The place is an explication of v. 22. cap. 1. ad Rom. saying themselves to be wise they became fools This he attributes to the vain power upon the course of the Heavens and stars who by challenging an opinion of wisdom from the knowledg of such glorious creatures were lost in the folly of staying there and not passing on to the Creator Selent tamen says the Book pudore passi neglecti Dei misera uti excusatione dicentes per istos c. where first the word tamen is changed into quidam which makes the sense absolute whereas the first evidently restrains it to what went before viz. Those vain Philosophers Then pudore passi neglecti Dei which are also relative are quite left out and to compleat the work the word istos is turned into justos which can no more fit the place then Giant or Castle for he being to explicate the Apostles meaning and the Apostle plainly speaking of the vanity of humane Philosophy would he not have hit his sence finely to make him talk of Saints worship Can those mens excuse be imagined so miserable as to alledge in justification of their not glorifying God that Saints are to God as Courtiers to Princes that never thought of Saints nor if they had were one jot neerer their excuse This is a kind of dealing which our obedience as blind as you conceive it would not endure But I forbear to press it farther then in behalf of your own happiness to beseech your own calm thoughts may work freely and impartially upon it SECT IV. Images PAge 176. Mr White answers the Objection of the second Commandment that if it binds now then the whole Ceremonial Law does but I cannot see that prohibition is a Ceremony It is not repeated in the new Testament therefore it does not bind I see no force in that Argument neither many precepts of the old are not repeated in the new which notwithstanding bind us now as not to lie with beasts not to remove antient land-marks c. Where is the tenth Commandment repeated in so many words But is there nothing of the second in the New Testament I shall remember you of one and that is in the 17th of the Acts where S. Paul is preaching the Gospel to the Athenians confutes their and your superstition of worshipping the unknown which was the true God by bodily representations in the 29th verse we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold or silver graven by art and mens device God is not like unto any similitude the art of man can devise therefore ought not to be worshipped by similitudes therefore no pictures or representations of him are to be made whether it be of man or birds or four-footed beasts or of creeping things as the words are Rom. 1.25 whereby some instead of glorifying God have dishonoured him and changed his glory as if there were not a greater evil because of the greater disproportion between the infinite Majesty of Heaven and Earth
thrown their rule overboard and they would not only have preserved their doctrine pure to succeeding Ages by the same means they had preserv'd it till then but they could not preserve it pure while they retain'd the same means which had preserv'd it till then To the following question I answer the Church of which by Gods mercie I am a member has preserved the doctrines of salvation entire not without writings indeed but without making them her Rule to preserve them by neither had she or could she have preserved them had there been no other means left her then words For what you say next I refer you to the third Dialogue to see since 't is the same thing in point of certaintie to receive a truth immediately through two hands or through twentie provided we be sure there be no deceit in the intermediate Conveyers all possibilitie of deceit removed from them and consequently our certaintie equal with that of those who lived nearer the Apostles times As for the unity of the Churches in the time of Irenaeus 't is true there was an unity and stil is amongst all those that stuck to Tradition but then as now some were divided and by the same means as now viz. by preferring their private Interpretations of Scripture before the doctrine they had been taught This divided the Valentinians in the time of Irenaeus the Arians in the time of St. Athanasius the Donatists in Saint Austins in all Ages some and divides you now And the way to know whom a man must beleeve when each say they have the way to Heaven was then as now to keep fast to what had been taught to follow those Churches that do so and those that build upon private Interpretations to reject so that the case is not at all altered the method of arriving to the knowledge of saving truths being the same anciently and now ¶ 10. That Irenaeus apprehended all those truths necessary for salvation were contained in Scripture which some places for a while have had without writing is clear by what follows and that the Scripture is a sufficient rule to salvation and was to him and the Church in his dayes which enjoyed it he tells us the Apostles left the same in writing in lib. 3. cap. 1. edit Basil His words are Non enim per alios depositionem salutis nostrae cognovimus quam per eos per quos Evangelium pervenit ad nos Quod quidem tunc praeconiaverunt postea verò per Dei voluntatem in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt fundamentum columnam fidei nostrae futurum Is not this clear against you The Scripture then was not written by chance but by the Will of God for this end that it might be a standing rule and pillar or foundation of our faith And lib. 2. cap. 46. shews this is a clear certain way for every one Cum itaque universae Scripturae propheticae Evangelicae in aperto sine ambiguitate similiter ab omnibus audiri possunt He was blaming Hereticks drawing errors from obscure Places and Parables when they might have seen the light in clear places by which the darker are to be understood God says he has given power to honest religious mindes that are desirous of truth to see it Haec promptè meditabitur in ipsis proficiat diuturno studio facilem sententiam efficiens Sunt autem haec quae ante oculos nostros occurrunt quaecunque apertè sine ambiguo ipsis dictionibus posita sunt in Scripturis ideo Parabolae debent ambiguis adaptari sic enim qui absolvit sine periculo absolvit parabolae ab omnibus similiter absolutionem accipient a veritate corpus integrum simili adaptatione membrorum sine concussione perseverat Sed quae non apertè dicta sunt neque ante oculos posita copulare absolutionibus parabolarum quas unusquisque prout vult adinvenit sic enim apud nullum erit regula veritatis And so says he there If we do not with sober unbiast minds take the plain Scripture for our guide a man shall be always seeking but never come to the truth yet the Scripture doth clear it though all do not beleeve one God c. sicut demonstravimus ex ipsis Scripturarum dictionibus Quia enim de cogitatione eorum qui contraria opinantur de patre nihil apertè neque ipsa dictione neque sine controversiâ in nullâ omnino dictum sit Scripturâ ipsi testantur dicentes in absconso haec eadem Salvatorem docuisse non omnes sed aliquos discipulorum qui possunt capere c. Quia autem Parabolae possunt recipere multas absolutiones ex ipsis de inquisitione Dei affirmare derelinquentes quod certum indubitatum verum est valde praecipitantium se in periculum irrationabilium esse quis non amantium veritatem confitebitur And in the next Chapter Habentes itaque regulam ipsam veritatem in apertum positum de Deo testimonium non debemus quaestionum declinantes in alias atque alias absolutiones ejicere firmam veram de Deo scientiam c. Si autem omnium quae in scripturis requiruntur absolutiones non possumus invenire alterum tamen Deum praeter eum qui est non requiramus impietas enim haec maxima est Credere autem haec talia debemus Deo qui nos fecit rectissime scientes quia scripturae quidem perfectae sunt quippe à verbo Dei Spiritu ejus dictae Si autem in rebus creaturae quaedam quidem eorum adjacent Deo quaedam autem in nostram venerunt scientiam quod mali est si eorum quae in scripturis requiruntur universis scripturis spiritualibus existentibus quaedam quidem absolvamus secundum gratiam Dei quaedam autem commendemus Deo non solum in hoc seculo sed in futuro ut semper quidem Deus doceat homo autem semper discat Si ergo secundum hunc mundum quem diximus quaedam quidem quaestionem Deo comiserimus fidem nostram servabimus omnis Scriptura à Deo nobis data consonans nobis invenietur parabolae his quae manifestè dicta sunt consonabunt manifestè dicta absolvent Parabolas per dictionum multas voces unam consonantem melodiam sentiet By which you see clearly what may be judged the way and held the only way to decide all controversies plain Scripture and thinks it no absurditie for us to be ignorant of what God is not pleased to teach us in Scripture and that you may see yet more clearly he held Scripture as his word was perfect containing the whole doctrine of the Gospel which is our question ¶ 10. After these exceptions taken to what he says in our favour you examine Irenaeus for your self and first produce these words Non enim per alios c. the sense of which I take to
your mind been in the same temper it was in the first Sect. of this part would have been reason sufficient not only to doubt but to reject it that you had not evidence of its certainty For there a man must plainly deny assent to what even all Doctors determine though he have no-so much-as-probable Objection against them upon this onely ground That he has not evidence their determination is certain and here he must yeeld assent because he has not evidence the thing he assents to is not certain Which is want of evidence must at one time produce dissent at another assent as it suits with your inclinations to the case it is apply d to Besides if all parts of Scripture have been doubted of Vid. Hierom. de Scrip. Eccl. in Petro Jacobo Juda Paulo Spondan ad an 60. 98. Com. Laod. c. and denyed too nay some which you receive by several even of the Fathers Why should not you think you have reason to doubt as well as those who lived neerer the Primitive times and should know more who shall satisfie a Critical Soul that all their doubts were ever fairly answered and they not more oppress'd by strength then satisfi'd by reason and this also destroys your pretence to universal Tradition of time and place since that could not in your grounds be delivered with universality which by some has been denyed And for your Monuments of Antiquity I beseech you pretend not to prove it that way for I think I deal liberally if I allow you to have examined ten Authors of every age and what proof are ten of the sentiments of 1000000 Then what do you find in these Authors certain places of Scripture cited out of such books as we still have but whether those books contained then the same number of Chapters and Verses they do now you will find very few to speak to Nay I do not beleeve you will find ten in all Ages that give you a Catalogue of the Books themselves much less of the Chapters and Verses So that your conspiracy of all Monuments of Antiquity will not amount to ten men in fifteen Ages I must desire you not to mistake what I have said as if I also doubted of Scripture which I acknowledg to be the Word of God reverence it as such and know the denyers of it were for the most part Hereticks All I aim at is by an Argument ad hominem to shew the power of prejudice to which what is reason when of one side ceases to be reason when on the contrary If therefore you faithfully pursue your own Principles what ever you think the true ground why you receive Scripture is the present Churches Authority and you should as you rightly infer receive the sense as well as words from her And for your fear of the Alcoran you will need no other security then your own thoughts if you reflect that all which the testimony of the Mahumetan Church if that name be tolerable concludes is That what she says was delivered by Mahomet was truly delivered by Mahomet and to so much I think you will allow her testimony good beleeving you do not doubt but that Mahomet was truly Author of the Alcoran and so much if you allow her you cannot deny the Testimony of a Christian Church Viz. That what she affirms was delivered by Christ was truly delivered by Christ and farther Tradition reaches not Now the Minor necessary to a conclusion of Religion that what was delivered by Mahomet was inspired by God I am sure you hold as great impiety to grant as Blasphemy to deny that which we subsume viz. that what was delivered by Christ did truly proceed from God Tradition then of the Alcoâ—an and Tradition of Christian doctrine agree in this that they prove the one to have descended from Mahomet the other from Christ but Christianity endures not either that a delivery from Mahomet should or that a delivery from Christ shâ—uld not argue a necessity of obedience to what was so delivered as to sacred and heavenly truth ¶ 2. Secondly I say if you can prove or produce any Tradition for any revealed truth not contained in the Bible as cleerly universal for time and place as that Tradition which assures me the Bible is the Word of God I must imbrace it ¶ 2. Secondly I conceive there is no point of our faith but has not onely as clearly an universal Tradition but a much clearer both for time and place then the Scripture a truth which since you may find in the first Sections of Rushworths second Dialogue I shall only wonder here you see not that the very Arguments which you make against the universality of Tradition for some points as that they have been doubted of and rejected by some are every whit as forcible against Scripture whereof there is no paâ—â— which has not been both doubted of and rejected too by Hereticks indeed at least for the most part for some also of the Fathers have doubted even of some Books which your selves receive but so also were they who rejected the points in question whose opposition if it be not allowed against Scripture cannot be valid to any thing but prejudice against points of doctrine Be true therefore if you please to your own reason and embrace that principle and the Communion of those who own it which alone can with certainty convey to you these sacred Truths which are necessary for your happiness ¶ 3. Thirdly I cannot grant your Church was the onely one before Luthers time there 's the Greek Abyssen and others there may be in several parts of the world that I know not of ¶ 3. Thirdly What you mean here by our Church I cannot tell if onely that number of Orthodox Christians who live within the Precincts of the Roman either Diocess or Patriarchate I know no body maintains I 'm sure I do not beleeve the number of the faithful is confin'd to that Pale But to answer of every particular place where Christians live till it be agreed what they held and of what may be too as well as what is seems unreasonable eifor me to undertake or you to exact thus much is true in general that whatever company of men where-ever they live hold this only principle of unity both in faith and government so as to be a Church are not another but our Church and who hold it not are no Church at all ¶ 4. Fourthly I see no necessity that any one particular Church should continue uncorrupted or that it is necessary the greatest number of Professors of Christianity should have uncorrupted Religion In the days of Elijah the Prophet there were but 700 that had not bowed the knee to Baal which the Prophet that thought himself alone knew not of ¶ 4. That there is any necessity a particular Church should always remain uncorrupted or that the greatest number of professors of Christianity should have uncorrupted Religion are two Propositions which
that Errors neither have nor could creep into our Church As for blindly embracing what ever is determined by Councils I doubt you are not Master of our Doctrine in that point For the Rule even of Councils themselves is Tradition and were it possible They should contradict it we are taught to adhere to Tradition against both them and Angels too Whether the case can ever happen I know not and conceive nothing but the roving of a wild fancy will make it possible but if it do I have told you our Doctrine ¶ 7. What though you have Tenets of a 1000 years standing they are never the truer seeing Errors have been so long and longer ago and some are known to have been propagated as far from Father to Son it is all one as if they yesterday begun seeing the succeeding age has nothing of Divine truth which was not in the precedent Now how can you assure us every one of yours were clearly throughout every one age The Reason page 8. which Mr. White makes his Demonstration to me is a meer Sophism the 8th age suppose could not entertain any new Opinion or Errorâ— because its principle was by which it was to judge of truth Nothing is to be admitted as of Faith except what was delivered to it by the former the Reason of the Consequence is because then they would contradict themselves What then Is it impossible for a man to take up a new Opinion and think it true though he be mistaken because of some principle he holds which proves it false if discern'd How is that argument cleer convincing of it self without the help of other considerations reason common sence and experience tell me the contrary If it be sufficient why does not Mr. White keep to it alone I find him scarce ever after making use of it without any other to salve all Objections by as he might if it were universally true and evident All he says is to evade the Arguments and only keep to this That no age did admâ—t any new point de facto which way I confesse sufficient for you to keep your hold if satisfactorily done but then you must not pretend to infallibility for you only prove seemingly posseâ—sion but I see nothing proves the impossibility of the contrary suppose one grant you the possession I see the largenesse of your Territories is that wherein your chief strength does lie Mr. White often denyes the possibility of any corruption because it would have bred such a combustion as would have been known this is the only appearance of Reason or Proof that to my best Apprehension I find in both him and Mr. Rushworth But without quotation of innumerable Authors which he promises to perform only by Reason he can never give any positive sufficient Proof that there was never in any age such commotions as did give way to any one innovation I use Mr. Whites own Argument p. 117. For a man not to Act not to turn from your Religion it is enough to have no Reason but to Act to prove that your Rellgion is infallible or to a Pagan that it is the true uncorrupted you ought to have a positive cause ¶ 7. I agree with you that the age of Errors gives them no approach to Truth and that one of 1000 years is no lesse an Error then one of but a day old But you must also agree with me that 't is a great prejudice against its being an Error if a Tenet have with constancy and generality been held so great a space of time For what subtlety can obscure it from the eyes of the world that in so long time it should not be discovered Prove therefore but do not suppose our Tenets to be Errors and as then Age will afford them no patronage so till then it makes the presumption of truth to be clearly on their side This being most evident in our case that Truth cannot be without Age nor Novelty with Truth For the assurance you desire that every part of our faith was clearly throughout every age you may receive it by reflecting that 't is clearly through the present age which because of the forementioned principle could not be without its having been so through the last Now what your eyes shew you in these two Ages your Judgement if ye suffer it to sway you and nothing to sway it will assure you must have happened in every age the case being perfectly the same in all You think Mr. Whites Argument a Sophisme because a man may take up a new opinion and think it true though he be mistaken But can he think his new opinion which he takes up was delivered him by his Forefathers that is not new and not taken up Till he do this which is palpable contradiction let him think his Opinions never so true his thoughts will bring no prejudice to the Argument For to be True and to be of Faith are two quite different things This supposes being delivered and your opinion is supposed newly taken up that is not delivered that is not of Faith and seen not to be so now if reason common sence and experience tell you that who thinks a thing true must therefore think it of Faith when by it also that is prove it but then we must not pretend to Infallibility I think no body does pretend that who has proved no Errors have come in has proved no Errors can come in we endeavour to prove this too when we pretend to prove infallibility For you onely prove seemingly the possession I do not know who does so much as seem to go about the proving of that which is apparent in it self beyond the evidence of proof That Luther was a Member of the Catholick Church till he set himself to oppose it and that till he changed his profession he professed what the Church then did and hath ever since maintained and what I instance onely in Luther I understand of all introducers of Novelty that ever deserted the Church are things beyond either the necessity or rather power of proof for I am yet to learn in what Mood and Figure that Syllogism must be which must prove the Sun shines at noon I see the largeness of your territories is that wherein your chief strength lies 'T is indeed universality which renders nature true and constant to her self whereas in a particular she may be defective one man may be born lame or blind but not all That corruption would have bred a combustion which must have been known you acknowledg has some appearance of reason though nothing else has Thanks be to God at least for so much which if you would please fairly to own and make a step to a further progress without diminishing it into appearance of reason when I must take the liberty to think nothing appears reason you can oppose against it you were in a hopeful way to your satisfaction but not to admit a truth seen to be so is a weakness which
wise saying of yours If this one thing upon which all depends the nature of Tradition were well lookt into many Volumes might be saved surely truth may be cleared with few Arguments which is often invisible in a croud of words Mr. White excellently well resolves only to meddle with Arguments and not to confute Authors in all Punctilioes because of loss of time to no purpose I wish you were but as willing to urge any one of your strongest Arguments which might be don in a little Paper as I am desirous to follow you in the pursuit I should then hope of benefit which your ingenuity will not altogether suffer me to despair of you having yet as I remember your words never refused to dispute with any man ¶ 2. Though there be many things in the First Dialogue which I do not consent to yet I think it in vain to mention them till we be agreed on the second and third in which the main point lies on which they depend ¶ 3. In the Second Dialogue he proves Scripture alone cannot decide Controversies in Religion because of uncertainty of Copies Translations c. 1. I grant we cannot fully determine all things we might desire to know by what we have in Scripture neither do I think it was intended to make us omniscient 2. We might possibly have known more then we doe were it not for those several causes of uncertainty mentioned Part I. Sect. I. ¶ 1 2 3. SIR WHere I find so much civility I expect to feel far stronger Arguments than if Passion were the manager of your cause and even your courtesie alone had hazarded to conquer me had the concern of my cause and the evident truth on my side left me to my good nature But these engage me to use the best weapons my reason and knowledg affords with rigor too against the point you maintain and to exchange those personal complements into the solider respects of heartily endeavouring your satisfaction assuring you unfainedly that I more willingly attempt it because your best advantage the â—ight of Truth which not only your sincere expressions but your temper genius manifest to be your aim is included in my victory who your Friend is with whom you had those verbal Conferences I am not so happy as to learn nor yet which is a great misfortune your self But since 't is your soul that I speak to and that I have great acquaintance with it by those expressions it hath given of it self in your ingenuous Papers I can securely own so much knowledg of you as to take a right measure how to behave my self towards you that is with candor and civility What circumstances may have hinder'd your friends giving satisfaction by his own pen I know not But I am sure though the importunity of powerful Friends in the absence of that excellent Master of mine have even forc't me to this task yet I may with truth say 't was your temperate way of writing your clearness and apprehended sincerity which were my chief encouragers Entring the lists then with this protestation that you have an hearty servant for your Adversarie and one who combats you only to make you more my friend and your own I address to my Defence And ¶ 2. 3. Because I know not whether the state of the Question be not mistaken I conceive this place very fit to observe how it stands in the second Dialogue viz. We beleeve that by Scripture alone left without the guard of the Church nothing or at least not sufficient for the salvation of mankind can be sufficiently proved Where the words mankind and sufficiently being of special Energie ought particularly to be observed What is meant by sufficient proof the 15th Encounter of the Apologie p. 142. declares to be inavoidable and convincing Demonstration beyond any shadow of Reply ¶ 4. Yet thirdly notwithstanding all that hath been said I thinke we have sufficient certainty out of Scripture alone concerning those things which are absolutely necessary for Salvation and many things besides only profitable my Reasons are these ¶ 4. You put the contradictory to your Adversary which you assume to prove fairly meaning by Salvation the the salvation of mankinde as I presume you do But your reasons seem to come short of your intent For suppose all true which you urge to the tenth Paraph namely that the alterations mentioned to be possible whereof you deny not but that many have hapned yet have not all of them actually befallen Scripture Suppose I say this to be true what a Chaos is there betwixt that Premise and your Conclusion That Faith may with sufficient certainty be proved out of Scripture alone For though all have not hapned yet since some have and you are uncertain precisely where 't is manifest you can never be certain but that they have hapned in whatsoever Text you shall pitch upon to prove any thing by and consequently you can never be absolutely certain of any again since Demostration implyes a must be of the Conclusion and must be evidently excludes may be of the opposite 't is plain that to destroy Demonstration that is in this case sufficient certainty it suffices to prove the opposite may be so that though it be granted these alterations have not all hapned yet while there appears a possibility they may have done so there appears an impossibility of ever coming to a rigorous certainty by Scripture But to take particular notice of every Paragraph ¶ 5. 1. It seems to me more improbable that nothing of Scripture as you say should be contrary to your Faith supposing it the true notwithstanding those innumerable alterations of Scripture then that all those alterations of Scripture proved Metaphysically only possible should actually have befell the Scripture ¶ 5. 'T is very strange it should appear improbable to you but that Scripture and our Faith must needs contradict one another supposing the one to be Scripture and the other true as you do Must truths needs be opposed to themselves which have hitherto been esteem'd opposite only to falshood If you mean by Scripture the alterations of Scripture as the sequel makes me imagin how much wrong do you do the Word for if Scripture be altered or changed from what it was then 't is not what it was that is 't is not Scripture But of these Alterations 't is not our Tenet that none of them have been contrary to our Faith the alterations made by the Translations of the first Founders of Protestancy having been judged so contrary to it that it occasioned the prohibition to read the Scriptures in Vulgar Tongues But only that there is nothing in the Vulgar Edition according to that sence in which the Church understands it which is contrary to her faith And if you will allow the Church but to know the Faith she is appointed to teach and know what she means by what she reads and what a contradiction is three Requests which cannot
well be refused her you must make her very ignorant if you deny her power to discern whether there be between what she reads and what she teaches any contradiction or not ¶ 6. Suppose all these alterations supposed possible had actually crept in might we not seek for Scripture in Scripture seeing they are innumerable even to every line and word as Mr. White and how is it possible that all those deviations from true Scripture should in nothing contradict truths for you say there is nothing in Scripture contrary to your faith therefore surely you cannot think there are so many corruptions for besides what he himself hath lest he should prove more then he was willing many Copies had the same faults I adde that the Christians in the Primitive times were very careful of the Bible especially when Copies were made for publike use to be in the Church there was the greatest diligence possible taken to have the oldest and best which they might have better ground to disscern then we can who lived nigher the first Age besides the ancientest Copies the best being kept by publike care were more secure and could yea did remain many hundred years as some there are to this very day by which the Copies that are afterward copied out may escape many corruptions of others before them ¶ 6. You see then how the first part of this Paraph is answered for we do not say that our Faith has never been contradicted by these deviations the number of which though we cannot determine we cannot chuse but think very great and whatever we think of theirs know that to our purpose 't is enough they may have hapned whether actually they have or have not And for the second part of it concerning the care of the Primitive Christians as I will not deny what you say to have some probability so neither can you deny that probability will not serve the turn and that their care how great soever exempted them not from being men and subject to the casualties of humane actions I shall therefore fairly allow them to have been as careful as they could be and conceive the condition◠they lived in left them not a capacity of doing what is necessary for their intent For it being known the Church was under persecution 300 years the experience I have how hard it is in this depression we our selves live in to preserve monuments in a condition fit to undergo a severe juridical examination much less such a one as the salvation of mankind ought depend on such a one as wil not only endure the Test of wise honest judgments but must be proof against all cavils of all sorts of critical wranglers makes me suspect your conjectures were not throughly and rigorously lookt into First I doubt the publike care you suppose and persecution agree not well together What sanctuaries what places free from search were there for the publike care to secure these sacred Monuments in What safety could there be for their writings whose persons were in perpetual hazard necessarily they must have been intrusted to the fidelity of private men which let us for once suppose did always remain unviolate and never betray their trust to any hope or fear 't is hard to imagine it could so preserv them from the innumerable hazards necessary to be met with from so many enemies in so long a time as that no alterations should creep into the Text. For to bar malice and all wilful faults both the devotion of private Christians would require and publike prudence the better to preserve it would endeavour as great a multiplicity of Copies as might be These Copies must of necessity be made in hast and fear and what enemies they are to exactness 't is needless to insist on Now in after times what shall hinder these Copies from contesting with their Originals in Authority and if which the influence of chance must sometimes needs bring to pass the Originals come to be lost and the Copies remain what reason shall prefer one before another As for the true Originals the very Writings I mean sent from the Apostles they cannot be imagined able to wrastle with so great an Age especially if we reflect the reverence universally born the Apostles and desire to see what proceeded from them exposed them to the view and handling of so many that they could not fail in a short time to be much worn What publike use they were of in the Church especially when there was no publike face of a Church and the pieces sent to one citie were unknown in another perhaps for a good while unwritten is something troublesome to guess and at best but pure guess And for what you say last that many of the best Copies survived many Ages and some even to this day I should have been glad if you had acquainted me with the Reasons why you so confidently affirm what I doubt you do but gratis suppose For what signs what proofs to satisfie you do these Copies bring that they truly deserve the Authority they pretend to that they were of the number of those best preserved by publike care In fine that they are not even fuller of faults then those which they would have corrected by them ¶ 7. Again there 's a very good way to discern the best by those several Translations that have been made in or nigh the Apostles times of the Bible in Arabick Syriack and other Languages ¶ 7. Now for Translations I should conceive the greater the variety of Translations is the greater must the confusion be Since certainly where they differ as Translations of necessity must do no one language bearing all the Proprieties of another there lyes a suspition the Translation has bin made out of different copies whereof that which you have not may for ought you know be better then that you have Then again why should one Translation yeeld to another and who shall determine whether the fault belong to the Arabick for example or the Syriack So that what you have said hitherto is resolv'd not onely into conjecture whereas your cause requires demonstration but unlikely conjecture too ¶ 8. 2. To me this is a good Argument that there is no such great corruption in our Original Copies All those Fathers which I have read which are chiefly of the first second and third Centuries agree excellent well though not exactly in their manifold quotations out of Scripture with our present Copies Some corruptions there are but nothing nigh what is imagined the Bible was not before Printing every mans Money as Mr. White therefore not so many as now and so not liable to many corruptions besides being exceeding dear they must needs look to have them well done for their great price but especially those Copies which were procured by a whole Societie for their publike use or those preserved in publike Libraries ¶ 8. How numerous the Quotations are which you have observed I cannot tell but must needs think
conclude the Scripture may be a sufficient means to decide controversies by although refractory minds be not silenced by it Neither has God promised that obstinate opposers of truth shall have any means of truth made effectual to them ¶ 5. To the difficulty of the following Paragraph because you propose it by demands I shall answer by Replys and to the first Why the Arians were not convinced by that Book I answer because 't was a Book that is a multitude of words which having no Interpreter to protect them could not preserve themselves from being wrested into senses different from what was meant by the Author Was there not then say you Evidence enough of that truth Yes to humble Seekers but to convince it to the Arians no Evidence and Conviction taking them severely are things above the reach of meer words But this imputes weakness to S. John or rather the Holy Ghost why so put a Reed into a Giants hand and because with it he cannot cleave an Oak is he therefore weak a feeble instrument is no argument of the feebleness of him that uses it Now words I take to be very weak and they cease not to be words whoever he be that employs them not but that S. John or rather the Holy Ghost by him which I think you will not deny might have managed them much better and made a much nearer approach to evidence had he so pleased or that been his aym I see men write plainer every day and God forbid I should think they understand the use of words better than he that gave them the power to understand Neither dare I attribute the contrivance of the Book to chance or imagine the works of God to be directed by any thing but his own infinite wisdom and providence Whence then the obscurity of that book Truly I am not of Council with the Divinity but believe I may safely assert thus much that since the Holy Ghost knew what you would object and yet chose that manner of writing he meant you should see that book was not intended for a Judge of differences in Religion to which he refus'd to give all the qualities necessary for a Judge and which even a book is capable of To this I foresee you will object that at least S. John cannot be excused from the weaknesse of making choice of a means by which he knew his end was not to be arriv'd at and that to write against Corinthus when he was conscious his writing could not prove his intent was not only unnecessary but hurtful To which I reply he writ so as abundantly to prove his intent in that manner as he design'd to prove it but his intent was not that his writing should be a proof contentiously and frowardly scann'd but humbly and diligently studied In the former way he had left them a much better weapon both to defend themselves and overcome their Adversaries then words can be namely that which S. Paul commands us to desert upon no inducements no nor even of an Angel from Heaven but besides this for the superabundant comfort and strength of the faithful he added also a confirmation of their faith by writing intelligible enough at the time and to the persons he writ when every body knew what it was which Cerinthus objected and his followers insisted on and consequently knew how to apply the Phisick to the disease and plainly see his pretences overborn by the Apostles authority But now the case is quite different To say nothing of the alteration of words and the great change which so much time must needs make in the Phrases and manner of speech our Intelligence of that Heresie is faint and dim and to expect we should comprehend what was written against it equally with those ages which flourish'd with it is to make him that has hardly any knowledg of the disease as cunning in the cure as that Doctor whose charge the Patient is The Apostles Gospel therefore was in those circumstances plain enough by the letter to those to whom he writ but to us so dark that except we look upon it with the spectacles of Tradition or other helps we have no security of penetrating its sence though even to them it was not so clear but that it was wrestible and much more in the time of Arius to malicious subtlety and wit which Hereticks never want But then those Hereticks not the Scripture were in fault say you and no body doubts but that Heresie and fault are inseparable But whether they be in fault or no the Church ought to be furnisht with Arms to defend her self against all sorts of Enemies and not till they cease to be in fault when they will also cease to be her enemies be left ungarded she must be provided as well to confound the proud as confirm the humble And this first quality is that which we deny to Scripture and if you onely attribute to it the second you oppose not us neither do I know why we should oppose you But God has not promis'd that obstinate opposers of truth shall have any means of truth made effectual to them Very true but he has promis'd the gates of Hell in which I doubt these obstinate men cannot be denied to stand shall not prevail against his Church and I understand not how they can be denied to have prevailed if that which you would make her only guard uncertain words being by their craft seduced into a compliance with them they may as plausibly object obstinacy to the Church as she to them For that and constancy are distinguished only by their alliance or enmity with truth and if truth cannot be made appear as you say to obstinate men God has not promis'd it shall neither can it whether be the obstinate opposers they or the Church Besides to bate those inseparable companions of Heresie Pride Obstinacy consider what will in your principles become of sincere but sharp understandings people that are not yet faithful nor ever were obstinate but always wittie who look upon disputes in Religion without concern of any thing but truth but look that what themselves accept for truth be truly such and will not be put off with counterfeit ware and take in stead of truth the partial construction of either side Neither will they be denied neither can justice deny them but that they should first see the truth before they be prest to imbrace it Now that Truth be seen to be truth 't is plainly necessary that there be no possibility of falshood there being no contradiction in the world more manifest then that the same thing should at the same time be possible to be false and evidently true that is impossible to be false 'T is equally plain that where there is nothing to make out the truth but words if those words be made agree to two senses neither can be made out to be truth for you put but one cause that producible of both effects That
one may somtimes seem the more proper is nothing to the purpose For besides that to offer plausibility to those who look after truth and can discern it is to go about to allay hunger with steam in stead of meat 't is agreed by all parties that many times the improper acception is the true one So by first-begotten in Mat. 1. we both understand only begotten which nevertheless are in rigour very different and 't is the same of many other and universally of all mystical places To apply all to our case can you deny but that he who sees the thing may be false does not see it is true and consequently that to accept it for truth is to wrong his nature Conformably to your Maxime in the 2d Part That no man must give assent without sufficient evidence Can you deny that amongst all the differing Sects of Christians there is any one which does not in whatever place of Scripture you urge against them find a sence favourable to themselves which they make the words tolerably bear Can the charity you claim suffer you to say there is no sincerity no wit but in your own party and deny there are amongst the Presbyterians Anabaptists Independents c. persons as sincere as your selves as desirous of truth who search and pray and yet differ if none of all this can be denied consider what a desperately wretched principle it is according to which there is no effectual means of truth provided not only for obstinate opposers but neither for earnest pursuers of it And since without the truths we speak of there is no salvation and they are not to be had without being seen to be truths and your principle will not let them be seen being applicable also to falshood 't is a plain case that according to it these men that is the most considerable part of mankind if not in number at least in value must be either Infidel or irrational either eternally miserable men or not men in their most important actions for certainly who acts against reason is so far not man but beast ¶ 6. I thinke Mr White p. 139. does but beat the air in requiring Gods written Word if it be to decide to proceed artificially or scientifically Let the Almighty have liberty to deliver himself as he please I think the learnedst and acutest have cause to blesse his Majestie that he will stoop to meanest capacities intending his Law for all that so the greatest if the mean may might more easily understand his oracles and pleasure that very thing Mr. White thinks wanting in Scripture to the making of it a sufficient Rule to decide St. Paul glories in as most suitable to the highness of divine mysteries which scorn rather then they will be beholden to the props of humane wit and invention 1 Cor. 2.1 2 3 4 5 6 7 c. I came not saith the Apostle to you with excellencie of speech or of wisdome declaring unto you the testimony of God my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of mans wisdome but in demonstration of the spirit and power that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men but in the power of God c. The demonstration of divine truths was given in plain language without humane arts though St. Paul had them yet all the Apostles were not so some being illiterate plain Fishermen as was their writing such was their preaching for we have some part of their discourses penn'd which were accomodated to vulgar capacities to whom they preached I ask whether they did not sufficiently demonstrate divine truths to their people in plain language if not then they did not leave the Gospel evident enough if they did then we have a sufficient demonstration of divine truths although the Bible be not written logically and its plainnesse hinders it not from being a sufficient Rule to decide or know truths ¶ 6. I do not find that Mr. White in the place you cite ties Almighty God to such strict conditions in saying no more then that writings penn'd according to the severity of science are more easily understood then such as are written loosely without connexion and this I think you deny not The second â—â—â—â—â—gue indeed out of this that the Scripture is not written in a method necessary to deliver a judging Law gathers it was not meant by God for such But this consequence you do not and I think the candid ingenuity you are Master of will not suffer you to oppose What you cite from the Apostle I cannot imagin which way you will draw to your assistance The whole place is expresly of preaching and speech writing not so much as once glanc'd at and how Scripture should be proved to be sole Judge of controversies from thence where 't is not either named or thought of I professe my sight is too short to discover your self seem to make use of it against your self when you say that if they did sufficiently demonstrate divine truths to their people in plain language then we have sufficient evidence of them True but not by the Bible for 't was not by writing but by preaching they taught the people and 't is by adhering to what they so taught that we also whom personally they did not teach come to have sufficient evidence of divine truth 〈◊〉 ¶ 7. I 〈…〉 that as Acts 2. c. and Acts 18.28 Apollos mightily convinced the Jews and that publiquely shewing by the Scriptures that Jesus was Christ so that Scripture affords sufficient Arguments to prove even most material points sufficiently although obstinate opposers as the Jews are not silenced It will be an aggravation to their punishment that will not be convinced by Scripture evidence and I see not how it can deserve punishment if there be not evidence enough to convince ¶ 7. What you may urge out of the Acts know not what I can find of my self I am sure makes nothing against me For the example of Apollos no body doubts but arguments may be drawn out of Scripture with marvellous efficacy You know the Dialogues hold Catholicism may be victoriously evidenc'd to be more conformable to Scripture than Protestancy by arguments purely drawn from the Text without extrinsical helps and what they hold may be done against you I conceive was the very thing Apollos did against the Jews not that he pretended Scripture was the onely foundation of Faith The place will not be drawn to any such meaning and we know our Saviour tells the Jews his works give testimony of him and that they should beleive the works and not believe him without them Now I imagine that to this evidence of miracles when the Jews oppos'd the Authority of Scripture pretending those could not be the works of God which justified a Doctrine contradictory to the word of God Apollos took away this pretence by shewing his doctrine not onely not contradictory but much more conformable then theirs and this I apprehend was the
That belief or faith is to be understood of saving faith which is all I can perceive you drive at to the end of the Paraph is so far from it that I do not beleeve any violence will make a premise of it for be it as you desire that the Apostle writ that we might beleev in Christ the Son of God with a saving faith and I dare say no Arithmetick would comprehend the number of intermedial links necessary to fasten this Conclusion to it that what he writ is a sufficient rule to salvation ¶ 4. But what need I trouble my self or you with writing all I could I remember an ingenuous confession of yours when we were one night discoursing of this place that you thought the whole Book was not only sufficient for salvation but even some parts of it if a man had no more which is as much as I desire ¶ 4. The answer to this Paraph depends upon the memory of that person who made such a confession I conceive it true thus far that even some parts might be sufficient for the salvation of some single person extraordinarily dispoposed and circumstanced which in all likelihood was his meaning But this is nothing to our Question whether it be sufficient for the conduct of all dispositions found in mankind through all circumstances the Church will be in from the Resurrection to the day of Judgement ¶ 5. The second place I look upon as a sufficient proof of Scriptures sufficiency is the beginning of S. Lukes Gospel compared with the beginning of the Acts In Mr Whites Apology p. 165 166. where he affirms there is not a word that this Book should serve for a Catechism to teach him and all the world the entire body of Christianity I think there is that thou mayest know the certainty of those things thou hast been taught or as the Greek word is hast been Catechized in So then S. Lukes Gospel contains a perfect sum of all these Doctrines and duties which Theophilus a Christian already had learnt To me this proves S. Lukes Gospel to be a bodie of Divinitie or a Systeme of all necessary truths of Christianity so that S. Lukes Gospel is more then a naked Historie of Christs life containing his Doctrine too or else he had not given Theophilus a full account of all he had been instructed in To say as Mr White S. Luke speaketh but by the by of our Saviours Doctrine or as his words are some of his excellent sayings is quite contrary to those words of the first of the Acts out of which he gathers his saying for there he speaks thus of his Gospel The former Treatise have I made O Theophilus of all that Jesus began both to do and to teach which is more then as Mr White some of his excellent sayings I lay the stress upon these two words all and teach which Mr White passeth over as Commentators do hard places although it be the chief thing to be answered Another thing I observe in Mr Whites translation he omits the word perfectly or exactly in the third verse of the Gospel which is very pertinent By all things Jesus did and taught must be meant the substance of Christian Religion the chief Doctrines and duties which were necessary to salvation for if any material point were omitted by S. Luke he could not alledge his exact knowledge in all things which he promises nor say as he does in the Acts that he had delivered all Christ did or taught from whence I must conclude and you too unless you can shew sufficient cause to the contrary that S. Lukes Gospel much more the whole Bible hath sufficient truth in it and contains all points necessary to salvation and may be a sufficient means though we have no traditions The Covenant between God and man is cleerly enough laid down there and in other Books besides with all those things without which no salvation ¶ 5. The second place you insist upon is the beginning of Saint Lukes Gospel compar'd with the beginning of the Acts which with your favour I conceive you have not brought home to our question for admit all you say were true even the conclusion it self viz. that Saint Lukes Gospel hath sufficient truths in it and contains all points necessary to salvation and may be a sufficient means though we have no Traditions your cause is far from being evicted For our question is not so much whether sufficient truths be containd in scripture as whether they bee contained sufficiently that is with evidence enough to carry away a cleer victory from malicious and obstinate Criticism So that it consists very well that all necessary truths may be contained which is all you do say and yet not so contain'd as in necessary for that effect which is what you should have said Again since the same means may be sufficient for one person which are not for another or for all and sufficient at one time not so at another Your Conclusion that this Gospel may be a sufficient means without Tradition comes far short of what it should be that 't is sufficient to all persons in all circumstances Now I presume the Evangelist writing to Theophilus with design to instruct him particularly the sufficiency you speak of cannot fairly be stretched farther then his intent and be construed to belong to more then Theophilus himself And certainly since every body in the Church is not Theophilus to deserve a Gospel should be writ to him it cannot be expected what was sufficient for him should be sufficient for every body else You see then how strongly soever your Canon is charged I conceive the Conclusion safe as placed beyond its level But yet to try the force it has The first thing you say against Mr White is that you think the place shews the Book was intended for a Catechism to teach him and all the world the entire body of Christianity moved by these words that thou mayest know the certainty of these things thou hast been taught or catechized in I beseech you how does it appear that by those things must be understood a body of Christianity You see Mr White understands no more by them then reports he Theophilus had heard and tels you if you will urge another sense you must first justifie it against this Now evidently writing to let Theophilus know the certainty of those reports he had heard is far enough from writing a body of Christianity As for the word Catechized which you seem to rely upon its original signification if good Grecians have not mis-informed me being most properly rendred by insono or infundo imports no more then a delivery of somthing by word of mouth though since by Ecclesiastical custome it hath almost been appropriated to the delivery of Christian doctrine Now this being since S. Lukes time what it was that was so delivered to Theophilus cannot be gathered from the word But if that be true which you say of Theophilus that he
was already a Christian I do not see the words can be brought to bear your sense since manifestly he could not have been so without already being certain of the body of Christianity So that your Exposition makes the Evangelist very wisely take a great deal of pains in writing a book to inform Theophilus certainly of what he certainly knew before Mr. Whites interpretation therefore seems much the more genuine and yet even admitting yours I cannot as I said before imagine any approach to our difference For St. Luke expresly confining his design to the instruction of Theophilus hee that extends it to more acts manifestly without any Warrant from him You urge afterwards the first of the Acts which you say Mr. White passeth over as Commentators do hard places Truly your severity is beyond what I have ever met with and you are the first example of expecting a man should answer more then is objected Mr. White is speaking to the Gospel and these words are in the Acts and yet you except against him for taking no notice of them As for the difficultie it self since those words cannot be taken in their proper natural signification St. John plainly telling us the world would not be able to contain the books which might be written I do not see any ground you have to understand by them the substance of Christian doctrine With submission to better judgments I apprehend that by All is meant all he thought fit to communicate to Theophilus that sense seeming to flow naturally from the places compared together But whether that interpretation be true or no I am sure nothing appears why a man should accept of yours For whereas you would prove it out of St. Lukes exact knowledge that is manifestly nothing to the purpose every bodie seeing it follows not because S. Luke knew all therefore he delivered all And for the quarrel against Mr. White for leaving out the word exactly besides that as I come from saying it is far from being very pertinent exact knowing being much a different thing from exact teaching all he knew Mr. White puts in stead of it that he was present almost at all things c. which in matters of fact is the most exact knowledg that can be And for the second proof that otherwise he could not say he had delivered All Christ did or taught I have already told you though that word cannot be taken properly to signifie truly All yo◠do it wrong to take it so improperly as you do the substance of Christian doctrine being a strange English of the Latin word Omne But be all this given to the respect of the person which suffers me not to pass by any thing you say without taking notice of it though otherwise your Conclusion which I am now come to does not any way prejudice the Tenet I am maintaining To contain sufficient truths and to be a sufficient means to salvation which may possibly be true in respect of some persons and circumstances being quite another thing then to decide all quarrels carried on by factiously litigious persons and this in all times and cases For a conclusion I beseech you to accept of this observation that a serious reflection on what you do your self would satisfie you whether partie Truth takes in this question for whatever force custom and a prepossest fancie has on your words to make them maintain St. Lukes Gospel alone sufficient nature contradicts them so powerfully that your actions speak the clean contrary and plainly prove 't is not sufficient for since you cannot hold that a sufficient means to you which you do not sufficiently know to be a means and this sufficiency of the Gospel you do not know without the Acts which nature forces you to rely upon even while you are maintaining you need them not you see plainly your words and actions agree not and that while you would by the former perswade the sufficiency of the Gospel alone the later unresistably convince somthing else viz. the Acts is necessary to its sufficiency that is that it alone is not sufficient SECT V. Answer to those Fathers who are brought for the sufficiencie of Scripture MY next Argument for Scriptures sufficiency shall be out of the Fathers which Mr White p. 175. thinks improper for us who will not relie on their Authority for any one point what though we receive not from them any authoritative testimonie yet we embrace a rational one from any not because they say it therefore it is true but because we see no reason to dis-beleeve or have sufficient reason to beleeve they testifie truths as a Judge collects a truth from Witnesses every one of which is a fallible man yet by beholding circumstances sees their concurrent Testimonies cannot be false here we have ground enough to beleeve that Scripture was a sufficient rule to them because they say and confess it was I am ready to beleeve any Tradition as well as the Bible provided we have as good ground to beleeve it came from the Apostles as I have of the Bible Suppose it be not a sufficient argument for us who besides have Scripture on our side yet it is a sufficient Argument against you who pretend to derive your Religion from them who went before you whom you include in your Church as Mr White If the Bible had once that authority we plead for in your Church it should have it still the contrary being a Novelty therefore I must count your Doctrine false till you have solved this Argument That which was the Rule must be but Scripture was the Rule Ergo c. ¶ 2. First I must take out of the way your Objections out of those Fathers I make use of that they were of your opinion which you gather out of several expressions of theirs as that of Austin whose and others their words I have of late read in your Authors pleading thus your cause I would not beleeve the Gospel unless the Authority c. In which and all other of their expressions we must understand unless we will say through heat of dispute they sometimes contradict their own sence plainly delivered at other times according to their intent and so I see not any thing that makes against us as that mentioned Either S. Austin means the Church of all ages or that present in which he lived If that precisely abstractly without consideration of the antiquity of it and its doctrinal succession from the Apostles his doctrine had been nothing available against the Manichees against whom he disputes for they might have alledg'd the authority of their Church with as good ground against him therefore when he alledgeth the authority of the Church or Tradition to be a sufficient proof of that which is not contained in Scripture he means the universal Tradition of all ages which was as evident as that of Scripture tradition or as cleerly derived from the Apostles by universal Tradition as the Scripture it self and such a
receive all decisions from you for certainties and these shall be derived to following Ages and so Traditions of later date go for Apostolike God forbids not the Doctors out of two truths delivered to gather a third nor those that are no Doctors to do the same if they can but who gives the Doctors of your Church power to command their people to beleeve all their decisions certainly true without any more adoe Whether they be true or no it matters not as long as they are uncertain to any one he is not bound to beleeve them certainly true p. 31. Mr White demands whether the refuser have a demonstration against those truths he refuseth to give absolute assent unto no what then must he therefore assent Is it not a sufficient ground not to assent because he has no sufficient to assent I think it is and I pray do you shew the contrary if I mistake ¶ 10. A hundred Mathematicians only tell me there is another world besides this just such another they are satisfied but give me no ground to know the same must I needs swear it is so and assent to that I know not as a certain truth thus you suffer your selves to be led by the noses into a thousand absurdities though the man by his probabilities is not to conclude rashly all the Doctors determinations to be false yet though he had no probability against their decision he must deny assent only upon this ground that he has not sufficient evidence to conclude their determinations certain I ask of you when a Council of yours meet and from two truths received arrive at the discovery of a third Tenet can the Council erre in this Deduction or no I see no reason to say they cannot there 's no promise for it they are all every one of them singly taken one by one fallible men as well as others Nay Mr White p. 227. says they may when he denies any Fathers saying a sufficient proof of a point no says he not the chiefest of them no not 300 of them together for so many Bishops in a Council have erred well then it is possible they should err though I will suppose it less probable then that one man should erre well but still it is possible they should err and with what candor can Mr White call it an obstinate and malepert pride not to subscribe to a fallible judgement as infallible or certain I call it blind folly to do it must I beleeve that true which I have no sufficient ground for I have it not because their bare Assertions or judgement who may be mistaken are fallible so then I should beleeve a lie morally if not logically to me though not in it self because it is uncertain ¶ 11. Now consider is this a trifle uno absurdo concesso mille sequuntur though the first uncertainty which they concluded a certain truth be but a smal falshood as it is possible afterwards more must needs follow being built upon the former and so what wonder that Church swarms with Errors where such a principle is admitted Yet this way must be taken the certain word of the eternal God shall be thrown aside and fallible men that are parties too in the cause shall ascend the throne and make their word a Law ther 's difference between keeping quiet and not contradicting and between being forced to subscribe to what a man knows not certainly this is wickedness in them that force it it is forcing often to sin what is not of faith is sin But besides though Mr White say one single man cannot have a demonstration against that which is determined true though we suppose it rare it is possible for one man to find out what all the world besides is ignorant of as many have Mr Whites own instance of Des Cartes is sufficient who found out more then many learned Clerks with twice the poring and will you force all to subscribe notwithstanding ¶ 9 10 11. The Discourse in your following Paragraphs is strong and worthy your self and though by mistake of our Tenets not concluding against us yet full of excellently deduced truth And first to defend Mr White who only maintains the addition of Truths why do you so confidently call that an evident way how Error might enter and spread it self in the Church Is Truth and Error all one or does it follow that because men are content to admit of what they see to be true they will not check at what they either see is false or do not see is true Will it ever follow out of Mr Whites Position that there is no harm in adding of truths that the mischeif of adding errors cannot be avoided Now because I conceive the mistake your whole Discourse runs upon is occasioned by a wrong apprehension of the infallibility of Councils I find it necessary to observe that though some of our Doctors speak of Councils so indistinctly that they beget such an opinion of their infallibility and authority as I perceive you fancie yet the best Divines with whom Mr White agrees do not allow any power in the Church of making new Articles of Faith that is of making that to be faith to day which was not faith yesterday and the day before and always which it could not be without being taught by Christ and his Apostles whence 't is evidently consequent that if they cannot make any new thing to be faith neither can they oblige any to receive and beleeve it as faith Their power therefore of imposing Faith upon us whatever fancies the confusion of some Discourses hath raised extends no farther then to such things as both were and were known to be faith before their Imposition And sure no danger can be suspected from an Authority of commanding that which the whole world sees whether they have authority to do or no. And so much for faith As for truths collected from Premises First it appears they have no power to introduce them into the Catalogue of faith I except such as appear plainly at first sight and need no skill at all to their deduction which though in rigour they be not properly faith are yet in a moral estimation accounted the same and so by the world which in such plain things cannot be deceived are indifferently beleeved Secondly A Council being an Assembly of the learnedst men in the Church cannot be denied to see into consequences far enough to know whether they be truly deduced or no so that if they ingage for the truth of any one as it cannot be exalted into faith so neither can it be imagined falls without some prejudice crossing the disposition of nature which moves us to beleeve every one in his trade Neither do I think whatever you say of your hundred Mathematicians in which science being your self a Master to trust is improper but that if half a hundred Carpenters should agree such a peice of timber would fit such a house or as many Surveyers that