is none so simple but he may easily see that there is no necessary coherence betwixt this antecedent and consequent For Christ might haue and indeede hath had as I shew after in my fourth chapter by whō effectually from time to time he hath both continued his Church and his trueth therein though your Bishops Priests haue a long time shewed thēselues his most deadly Antichristiā enemies in opposing thēselues with main might against both his Church truth The matter you haue vndertaken to shew vs is by what right you exercise your ministery or how you were called to that estate for that as a thing more easy you rather haue chosen to doe then to proue your office of Priesthood it selfe to be of God though indeede this be the more material point which you should rather haue taken vpon you to proue but that it seemeth like a prudent man you tendered more your owne credit which you foresaw was like to take a foile if you should haue attempted to doe this which by no colour or shew of sound reason you could then the credit of your cause which you could not but foresee must needs lye in the dust this being left vnproued whatsoeuer you should say cōcerning the other But seeing whatsoeuer become of your cause it hath pleased you like a wise mā to slip frō vnder this burdē which was to heauy for you now that only thing that we must expect at your hāds at this time is to shew that your maner of cōming vnto them yet is honest good and lawful I pray you in good earnest consider and weigh with mee a little what you haue saied to proue this Al you say is as I noted before that you are called by the ordinary way thereūto that is as you expoūd your selfe by the right successiō of Bishops pastors by the continuāce of one Catholick faith deriued frō the Apostles to our daies wtout interruptiō of it vniuersally nothing at al you haue added that so much as sauoreth of any proofe of any one point of this your assertiō therfore seing your word is nor ought to be of more credit with vs then the bare partial word of an aduersary in his own case your frēds might haue thought themselues euen asmuch beholden to you if you had as wel giuen ouer the taking in hand to proue their maner of comming to their offices to be of God as you haue to proue the offices thēselues to be of his ordināce If you had mēt or at least could in earnest haue proued the thing you vndertooke you should haue first made it appeare what is requisite by Gods ordināce in the lawfull outward calling of the ministers of his Church then haue shewed vs that your Popes Cardinals Bishops priests haue alwaies doe stil so cōe by their offices but this was to haue dealt too plainely and in following of this course you knew wel enough you should be enforced too too openly to betray the badnes of your cause For who is there of any learning and reading but he knoweth that the ordinary way whereby these your officers haue come now these many 100 yeares to their roomes is as farre differing from the ordinary waie appointed by Christ for his ministers to come to their places by as the east is from the west You therefore like a wilie and subtle fox thought it no good pollicie this way to seeke to iustifie your calling or maner of cōming to your prelacies yet rather then you would seeme to be able to say no more for your maner of comming thereunto then for the offices themselues you were disposed you thought it good thus brauely and braggingly to set a face vpon it in these words as though you could saie enough and that makes your fault the greater You haue no sooner vttered this your bare and bold assertion which were somewhat if you could throughlie proue it but you are quite slipt gone into the proofe of another matter which though you proue yet your assertion is neuer the more thereby strengthened and confirmed For though we graunt you which alwaies we do most willingly that the Church of Christ hath alwaies had in her from her first natiuitie and shall haue vnto the ende successiuely in all ages in one place or other such as haue shewed the trueth faithfully vnto others as haue shined as lights in their daies set vpon a candlesticke and as haue painefully laboured and shall still to gather together the Saints to bring them to vnity and perfection in Christ yet neither doeth it follow that these haue bene so visible apparent glorious in the eies of al men that they haue so orderly succeeded one another and had their ordination one of another in one and selfesame place and after one and selfesame maner nor that hereupon it should follow that this hauing bene in any sort that then by and by it must be granted that yours haue entred the ordinarie way that they are right Bishops and Pastors haue had right succession alwaies one to an other and haue also which is the greatest thing of al had wtout interruption alwaies the sound catholicke faith continued amongst them For in some sort these might be in al ages and times that effectuallie to serue to these ends so far forth as stoode with Gods prouidence was according to the variable disposition therof sufficiēt to cōtinue his holy catholick Church according to his good pleasure yet not in that visible apparēt glorious maner that you pretēd some he might haue to enter into their callings to doe this the ordinary way though your Bishops Priestes haue not so entred be not right Bishops and Priests and be such as are destitute of al right ecclesiastical successiō both in respect of persons places times trueth And yet most euident it is to euery reader of anie iudgement that al your proofes in this Chapter in the rest that follow proue onely that God alwaies hath had hath will haue a Church and therin alwaies some teachers of the trueth and some learners and embraces of it And this the Lord hath had hath and euer wil haue though your ordinary waie of comming to your places though your Bishops and Pastors your personal and locall visible and glorious succession and your supposed Catholicke truth had neuer beene seene or heard of in the world Yea far more apparently and gloriouslie should we haue seene the trueth hereof if this ordinary waie of yours these Bishops and Priestes of yours this succession and counterfeyght trueth of yours had not in the iust iudgement of God for the sinnes of the world beene the stop let thereof And yet you either were so simple your selfe or else you thought you should onely meete with so simple a Reader as would account the prouing of one of these thus seuered and disioyned the one from the other the iust
I cannot deny but that I finde all these and the Churches vnder them still charged to holde errours and heresies but this then withall I infer the more true that it is and hath beene thus with them the more euident it is of what small acount this personall and locall succession is of it selfe either to giue credit to Bishops and Pastours or their religiō that can plead that And this further I adde if these be sufficient causes to make their alleadged succession to be of no valew then there is as great cause why succession bragged on so much by the Romanists should be reiected as a thing not worth the naming For not onely in inferiour places of Bishops and Priestes which is a thing that they will not striue with vs about it is so manifest that there haue beene many heretiques amongst them but also euen in their line of Popes who as some of them hold cannot erre there haue bene sundry heretiques also For Tertullian contra Praxeam writeth of a Bishop of Rome that did allow of the Prophesies of Montanus as he saieth therefore sent letters of communion to the Churches of Asia and Phrigia thereabout And Athanasius in his epistle ad solitariam vitam agentes and so also Damasus in the life of Liberius and Hierō de ecclesiasticis scriptoribus testifie that Pope Liberius was drawen in the ende to subscribe to Arianisme And Honorius died an heretique as it is to be seene in the first general councel Act. 12. 13. c. Liberatus also Breuiarii Cap. 22. witnesseth that Vigilius in secret fauoured heretiques Anastasius the second fell into a condemned heresie as we read Dist 19. Cap. Anastasius and therefore would haue restored Accatius a condemned heretique And yet I say nothing of Pope Iohn 23. condemned for an heretique by the councell of Cōstance the schole of Paris for denying in effect the immortality of the soule Yea the euidence of the trueth in this point is so open and strong that it hath caused their owne frends to condemne them of grosse flattery that holde that Popes haue not and cannot fall into heresie as any man may see that will read Alphonsus contra haereses lib. 1. Cap. 2. 4. Lyra vpon the 16 of Matth. and the third Synodall Epistle of the councell of Basill And that the Romish Church doeth now holde as grosse and palpable errours and heresies as they charge these withall if I proue not ere I haue done with Albine I will neuer craue credit either to our ministers or to our Churches and cause Wherfore to leaue the proofe of this to his place or places to goe on with that which I haue vndertooke to proue against them concerning this their brag of right succession whereas thirdly I saied that though we were not able to deduce or deriue downe from the Apostles wtout interruption any locall and personall succession vnto our Ministers that now bee yet as long as ours teach and our people embrace the same doctrine that they taught wee are well enough whatsoeuer they say to the contrary that resteth onely now in this case to be proued But before I come to the proofe of this least in this my assertion I be mistaken I would first that it were marked that I speake but by way of supposition that is if we were not able to set downe a continued line downe from them to vs without any interruption for in the 4. Chapter following I hope I shall set downe such a descent of our Church from them to vs as whereby it may sufficiently appeare that there was neuer age nor time since but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers Secondly I would haue it also vnderstoode that my meaning is though it were so that wee could not make recitall or demonstration of any such descent or succession in that processe of time distance of place and the force and subtlety of our enemies kept vs from knowing their names persons and places that yet for the continuance of the trueth and the Church of Christ amongst men I constantly holde and beleeue that there hath beene a continuall and vninterrupted succession of teachers and embracers of GODS trueth whereof his Church consistes euen from the first beginning thereof and shall bee to the ende Onely this is it that thereby I am contented bee insinuated that the Churches of Christ if they can proue that they are taught by such ministers as God doeth raise vp vnto them according vnto his good pleasure whither ordinarily or extraordinarily and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Christ and his Apostles taught witnes the canonicall scriptures that then they are to be accounted Apostolike and holy Churches of God and that in such a case especially in and after great persecutiōs ruines long oppressions of their mēbers children they neede not to be daunted nor discouraged neither in respect of their ministers and teachers nor in respect of their doctrine though they cannot be able lineally to name the persons either by whom their ministers downe from the Apostles haue had their vocation deriued vnto them or else by whom euer since that trueth hath beene continued For howsoeuer in visible Churches of GOD whiles they stande in florishing or vnoppressed state and condition by the fury of persecutours there is a set order and forme visibly to bee obserued in the vocation of Church ministers in respect of which estates and times it is easie for them that liue therein or within the knowledge and remembrāce thereof to make demonstration of the lyne of succeson yet when in the iust iudgement of God the Churches shall bee oppressed as now a long a time they haue beene vnder the tyranny of Antichrist then and after such a time such a thing growes to many not onely harde but also impossible And in such tymes wee finde that the Lorde of his wisedome and power to continue yet his Church rayseth vp men though not by the ordinary way vsed in the former tymes as after the dispersion of the Church at Hierusalem by meanes of the persecution there when Stephen was stoned we reade that the Disciples beeing dispersed and namely with them Philip the Deacon that hee preached the Apostles not aware thereof for any thing that appears so vnder Cōstātine Antonius the heremite taught at Alexandria and vnder Valens Aphraates Flauianus and Iulianus at Antioch beeing then but Monkes who in those dayes were not so much as counted amongst Clarkes as wee reade in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. These thinges thus premised thereby not onely my meaning shall rightly bee conceiued but also that which I haue saied in some sort is already confirmed But my reason indeede is that true and sounde apostolicke doctrine in the good prouidence of God towards his Church opened and continued in the same though by men not comming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way alwayes but sometimes somewhat
will shal bee founde flockes of goates and not of sheepe and foxes and wolues seeking the destruction of the sheepe rather then true sheepeheardes But you would make the Reader beleeue that Salomon in this place by you cyted out of the first of the Canticles doeth teach the true Church safelie alwaies to pitch her tentes and to feede by the visible and apparent succession of pastours which from age to age can leade her without leauing her by the waie euen to Christes time Which you saie yours can doe and ours cannot boldlie aduouching that vnlesse we be not ashamed to lie wee cannot shew where our Church or Religion was an hundreth yeares agoe and that wee cannot denie but Luther began to preach our new Gospell in the yeare 1517. And thus againe partlie by this note of visible succession of pastours and partly by vpbrayding vs with certaine differences of opinions amongst vs about the maner of Christes presence and diuerse and sundrie fantasticall heresies that of late daies haue sprung vp and beene reuiued you labour to iustifie your Synagogue of Rome and to condemne our Church of Christ which thinges you harpe vpon very much and often afterwarde in this your treatise Wherefore to aunswere you to all these thinges here once for all first I tell you you offer violence to Salomons wordes in making them to containe a prophesie of any such perpetuall and visible succession of flockes and pastours in the possession of one trueth as you inferre thereupon and make it the speciall marke and note to discerne Christes true Church from all that falsely bee so called For then it should bee contrarie to that view of the state of Christes true Church which I haue set downe vnto you and prooued by infallible arguments in the first Chapter which may not be seâ—ing the scripture alwaies agreeth with it selfe And yet the Church may haue good vse of Salomons aduise giuen her here in her greatest ruins and interruptions of her ordinarie and visible forme and beautie in looking to the visible flockes and sheepheardes that were before that God so chastised her as in Achaz time in looking to and following those that were in Dauids and Salomons timeâ— in Manasses and Ammons time in looking to and following those in Ezechiaths Iehosaphats times in the time of the captiuity in looking to following those that were in Iosiahs time And yet doe not so take me as though I thought that either Christes true Church or the true sheepheards thereof did at anie time vtterâ—â— cease or faile for I am perswaded they neuer did nor shall But this onelie is the thing that I now say that though this place of the Canticles doeth shewe that in no time there is any true flockâ— of Christ but there hath gone before a flocke and shepheardes which that may safely followe euen to the finding of Christ yet it proueth not that there hath alwaies immediately gone before it from time to time some visible so apparent flockes and shepheards one immediately succeeding another as that the names of the sheepe and shepheardes are alwaies famously knowen and therefore easily to be reckoned vp of euery one which are the thinges which you seeme to inferre hereof and therefore require of vs to bee done or else you would faine make the Reader beleeue that wee neither are the Church haue the trueth nor true right ministers thereof Wherein many waies you offer vs great wrong for after you your selfe distrusting belike that in any seate or line of Bishops without interruption this can be performed speaking of your line of Popes whereof all the sort of you bragge in this case most cap. 8. to vpholde and drawe along your right succession you tell vs flatly you meane not when you speak thereof onely of them but of al Bishops elswhere that they may continue it in the interruptions of that liue somewhere else and yet at our handes you require vnder the penalty aforesaied that we should froÌ„ age to age and from person to person orderly succeeding one another deduce ours For when we say it was continued alwaies by some in some other places when wee can no longer finde it in your Romish see whereinto by little and little you haue craftily â—rept and wherein for many hundred yeares before men of our Church and Religion sate and taught you reiect that our answere as a shift Another wrong that you offer vs herein is this that your Antichristian Synagogue hauing according to the prophesie Reuel 12. persecuted our flocke into the wildernes with the sheepherdes thereof you require that wee should euen in respect of such decaied distressed times of the church giue you as euident demonstration of our flockes and sheepheardes as may bee giuen thereof in the florishing and peaceable state of the same For there is no reason in requiring that in the decaies and ruines of the Church which accompanieth alwaies the Church in her prosperous and standing estate Besides herein you offer vs the greater wrong in that notwithstanding it be graunted of vs that both perpetuall continuance of the Catholique faith and also some kinde of succession therefore of teachers be necessary alwaies for the continuation of the Church yet you cannot but knowe especially seing that prophesie before named that also 2. Thes 2. must bee fulfilled of the church of Christ in respect of some time of her soiourning here on earth that thereupon it followeth not that therefore their succession is visible and demonstrable alwaies in your sence or else wee must yeelde that there were none such For who is so simple but hee is resolued that all men now aliue come by lineall succession from some of Adams children and yet fewe or none can bee found that can rightlie no not the skilfullest harrold of them all deduce their pedagree from thence Must it therefore followe that there hath not alwaies beene for all that a certaine lineall descent if you should thus inferre euery one might laugh at your follie For long processe of time distance of place betwixt some of our progenitours and vs lacke of Cronicles or the neglect of such genealogyes in them alterations of names and countries and diuerse such like things maketh the one not onely hard but for the most part impossible and yet no man doubteth of the certainty of the other Euen so in this our present question most certaine it is there haue alwaies beene both flockes sheepherdes to continue both the trueth Christes church For that wee graunt is necessarie but yet through continuance of time force of your Antichristian persecution distance perhaps of the flockes and sheepeheards in place from vs that God in some ages vnder your tyranny hath vsed to continue his church by and lacke of faithfull and carefull writers to cronicle such matters especially your wouluish and foxy sheepheardes beeing alwaies watchfull and mindefull to their vttermost either to blot out their memories quite in not
that they come to them by the ordinary way by right succession of Bishops and pastours continuing in one Catholicke faith downe from Christ to this present time thus childishly begging in one piece of one short sentence these foure great points all which in this case are betwixt vs and them in question namely that their officers all of them come to their roomes by the ordinary way that they haue right succession right Bishops and pastours and sounde and Apostolicke doctrine And yet though he knew well enough that wee constantly deny all these yet to proue that they come lawfully to their offices hee onely nakedly and barely affirmeth them as though he presumed that he was and should be such a Pythagoras in the conceit of all his Readers that for him once to say it were enough and enough againe For by and by after that thus he had onely saied hauing vsed neither proofe nor colour of proofe to backe his saying hee slippeth into another matter not yet called in question Whither a visible knowen and alwaies a demonstrable personall and locall succession of Bishops pastours be necessary for the perpetuall continuāce of the Church and preseruatiō of the trueth therin And thus hee windeth frō matter to matter leauing alwaies that vnproued which hee had most neede to haue proued labouring sweating continually about the proofe of that which though it were graūted him yet he might wel enough loose his cause As for example hauing entred into the foresaid matter in maner before saied in 3. or 4. whole Chapters following he shewes how the trueth is continued in the Church by succession of pastours how profitable their ministry is to bring men to to settle them in the truth that the anciēt trodē way by Christs sheepe downe from Christ to this day that the ancient Catholicke faith that the faith which in Irenaeus and Augustines time was helde and taught at Rome had vnto their times beene continued from Christ by succession of Bishoppes and pastours is the waie and faith that a Catholicke man must liue and die in whosoeuer saieth to the contrary In which propositions no maruaile though he goe on roundly for he hath winde and weather with him none of vs gainesaies him yea these things being rightly vnderstoode wee constantly affirme and teach the same But these things being all graunted him what is hee nearer his cause seeing as yet all the sort of them neuer could nor shall bee able to proue that their pastours succeed Christ his Apostles or the ancient holy Bishops pastours that were before Irenaeus Avgustines time in teaching the same doctrine that they taught But herein is his popish subtlely that standing thus vpō these points he would haue his Reader graūt him all these that their successiō of Priests Bishops is that successiō of pastours so profitable for the continuāce of the trueth and Church that their Romish Religion that now is is that ancient way that Christs sheepe haue alwaies trod so the ancient Catholicke Religiō which in Irenaeus Augustines time they the holy pastours Bishops at Rome and else where had soundly succeeding one another from the Apostles continued in vnto that time which are things whereof not one the Pope and all his confederates shall euer be able indeede to proue and therefore it seemeth Iohn de Albine thought it good policy seeing these thinges could be got no otherwise to trie whether he could get them thus by flatte begging of them And it seemeth also that hee presumed that hee should come onely to such liberall mens dores that all these should be graūted and giuen him euen at the very first asking for alwaies after he behaues himselfe in such sort as that without all peraduenture he had them all graunted him Onely a little in his thirty seuēth Chapter belike somewhat growing ashamed of his shamelesse begging al the while before he begins to make shew that if men should be so hard harted as to deny him that their pastours doctrine and Church are sound Catholicke that he is able to proue them so to bee whither such will or no. And yet euen there when all comes to all though indeede hee bragge that he could and would but for being too tedious to his Reader iustify the rest of their doctrine by the testimony of a number of doctours holy confessours and martyrs he onely by mustering of a sort of dumbe doctours vpon the stage makes his poore Reader beleeue that in the places quoted by him they speake directly to iustify their ceremonies their Auricular Confession praier for the dead and to the dead as though these were the principall matters in controuersy betwixt them and vs. But doubtles hee knew well enough that no one of his Readers amongst an hundred would and could turne the places and so try whither the men he name make there so for him or no. For otherwise for shame he would not haue quoted them so negligently falsely and corruptly as when I come to that place I shall shew thee hee hath These thinges considered Christian Reader thou must bee very simple and haue before hand thy minde wholy forestalled with his false principles or else hee shall winne with thee little credit to his cause or disgrace to ours Howbeit seeing both his whole drift and his publishers in his preface was as it euidently thereby appeares vnder the odious names of heretiques and schismatiques to disgrace vs and the trueth that wee professe as though it were not once to be called in questiō whither they and their crue were the onely sound Catholickes and Christians in the world before I let thee proceede come to the view of his declamation made to that ende and of my answere thereunto this vpon good and most cleare ground I protest vnto thee and assure thee what brags soeuer he or any other of his fellows make of their popish and Romish Religion that now is prosessed amongst them besides all other things that can or may be saied against it it is such a Religion and their Church the vpholder thereof such a dame as is the very nurse and baude of monstrous impietie as is intolerably iniurious to the right of the good estates of all Christian Princes and their people and as lastly howsoeuer it may seeme to carry a shew of holinesse it is not so but indeede cunningly vnder the colour thereof aymeth at no marke more then to aduaunce the pride pompe and gaine of her louers The first is euident in that their doctrine of their Popes supermacy is such as that for money hee may pardon any sinne as their practise teacheth either committed or to be committed yea their verie Hedge-priestes by the authority of the power of absolution giuen vnto them vpon penaunce done how light soeuer if it so seeme good vnto them haue and doe take vpon them marueilously that way to breede immunity and impunity by their absoluing whom for
is the thing that Caluin telleth you you must shew or els you must confesse your calling is not of God seing it is but to an office of your owne boldnes deuised and taken in hand And yet this being a thing which to iustifie your calling it stood you vpon most in the best maner you could to haue proued yea without the profe wherof all that euer you haue saied or can say of neuer so ordinarie a comming thereunto is merelie vaine friuolous yet you saie you will not meddle with it here at this time but you put it of to another place not once finding time place in this your discourse to speake a word of it againe Wherein at the first entrance in the eies of the wise you haue giuen your Priesthood a greater wound then al that you haue saied concerning the lawfulnes of your vocation thereūto can euer heale vp againe For this thing being the most pertinent material thing that could be your drift and purpose in this discourse considered for you to haue laboured about as about the soule of your cause to giue al the rest life how could you perswade your selfe but that in thus shifting of this though so thrust vpon you by your owne citing of Caluins words but that euerie one would straight iudge that you did it not because you had no will to haue proued it but because you feared that your skil would not serue you substātially to doe it And therefore in pollicy you thought it more wisdōe thus to passe it ouer as though you could saie enough thereof if you list then by entring into it to lay open your weakenes to your frends in so great a matter at your first entrance into your booke Howsoeuer you haue thought it the safest waie in this place to say nothing hereof for sauing your credit to make shew as though you would say enough in some other in the mean time euē here the nature of your popish Priesthood considered I confidentlie aduouch that neither you nor all you togither can euer proue indeede that it is of God For the Scripture teacheth vs that Christ hath an euerlasting Priesthood and that he executed that office here and doth stil there where he is for his Church so perfectlie that he hath this prerogatiue that he needeth no successors to cōtinue his office as the Priests of Aaron had nor anie other either to offer any new or to iterate that sacrifice which he offred himselfe for the saluation of mā he hath offred one so perfect so perfectly once for al He. 7.23.24 10 10. c. which prerogatiues the massing Priesthoode robbeth him of first in that they will bee his successours in the office of Priesthoode and thē in that they take vpō thē to offer him again in sacrifice to his father for the sinnes as they say both of the quick dead most blasphemously make thēselues in their offering him againe to his father mediators betwixt him and his father praying him as it appeareth in there masse-book that he would fauourably looke vpō and receiue those hoasts which they there offer vnto him for the soules of such and such Ex missâ pro defunctis ex secretis Werefore I dare be bolde to say that so far of is it that their Priesthoode is of Gods ordinaunce that most certainly it is of Sathans owne deuising and is most iniurious to the death and passion of Christ and therefore Antichristian Howbeit seeing you haue left Caluins assertion that it is not of God standing without any refutation and so are contented vntil you better aduise your selfe what to say against it to let it stand still in the meane season to render vs account of your cōming vnto it vpon condition that wee will make ready our papers when you haue answered vs to answere you how we come by our Ministery I am content to accept of this your condition and so to heare first what you can say for the iustifying of your vocation and after when and where you cal for it to yeeld you an account of ours But then in the meane time I must put you in minde and pray the gentle reader to marke it that for any thing you haue saied yet Caluins assertion against your office of Priesthoode it selfe that it is not of God standeth in full force You write that you are called to this estate according to the ordinary way that is say you by the right succession of Bishops pastours and by the cōtinuāce of one catholique faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies wtout the interruption of it vniuersally This you say indeede but what haue you either here or els where in this your notable discourse for so either you or your frends cal it brought vs to proue this you cite here Mat. 5. Eph. 4. a place out of Esay with is there Cap. 62.6 though in your booke it be quoted Sap. 61. but neither any of these nor al these togither do proue your saying to be tru For taking the places in your own sēce the things therby proued are only these first that the tru Catholick faith hath alwaies so shined that it hath giuē light at al times in one place or other to thē within the house that is that be wtin the true Catholick Church to such as be neare thereūto and within the sight thereof and that Christ wil haue continually euen vntill his second comming and vntill his Church bee growen to her ful perfection his trueth continued in his Church by faythfull Pastours and Ministers and to this ende serueth also in your opinion your similitude taken from a materiall building which cannot be perfected without continuance of workemen vntill it bee done which yet caryeth with it a dissimilitude euen in the thing wherein you resemble it vnto the Church For we see by daily experience that in material buildings if they be great there are often tymes great and many interruptions and ceasings of the workemen and yet in the ende the building well enough prefected But bee it that these places proue these things and that your vnapt similitude hath no vnfitnes in it what is all this to the purpose doth it hereupon follow that you come to your offices of Priests Bishops as you haue saied Because Christ hath alwaies will to the ende preserue and cōtinue the light of his trueth by the faithful ministery of some in his church which is a thing which we alwaies haue constātly firmely beleeued to be true because he hath had hath and wil euer vnto the ende haue a holy catholicke Church against which the gates of hel neither hath at any time doeth nor euer shall vniuersally preuaile shall it hereupon follow that therefore your Priests Bishops are the mē whom Christ hath alwaies and yet doth vse to this ende or that amongst thē there hath alwaies beene the right succession in one Catholicke faith Their
alwaies demonstrable succession of such â—â—â—â—sters in the Church without interruption as these metaphorâ—â—â—â—scribe And yet I deny not but that alwaies in one place or ot◠〈◊〉 the Church hath had from the beginning thereof and shall haue 〈◊〉 the ende of the world such and so many ministers whereby the L◠〈◊〉 hath alwaies and will continue the life thereof but that this plâ—â—â— of Matthew proueth so much which is yet far lesse then you 〈◊〉 enforce vpon it I deny Notwithstanding I graunt that all 〈◊〉 faithfull pastours and teachers according to the nature of their â—â—ling and measure of their gifts so far forth as they therein haue â—â—â—thing common with the Apostles and are found like vnto theÌ„ 〈◊〉 also in some sort haue these things applied vnto them vnderstâ—â—â— of them but then withall it must be noted and alwaies remembrâ—â— that as there was and is diuersity of gifts and offices in sundry â—â—spects betwixt the Apostles and common pastours and teachers 〈◊〉 it must follow that there is proportionable difference betwixt the apparent light and visiblenes of the one and the other The Apostles were by their office appointed to preach to all nations Math. 28. 〈◊〉 therefore worthely called in that respect the light of the world and by their extraordinary giftes they were set vp as burning lampes and mighty cities to be seene discerned a farre off whereas Bishops Pastours Doctours haue charges limited vnto them but of final compasse and giftes but such as if they giue true light and be seene of those that be about them and neare vnto them it is well Howsoeuer certaine it is as I saied before that Christ doeth not there prophecy or foreshew how visible lightsome his Pastours teachers should be from time to time to the worlds end but he teacheth his Disciples and Apostles what by his grace they should be and so others succeeding them in the office of teaching what they ought according to their place to striue to bee And I would haue this marked also that euen they to whom Christ spake properly were but tolde that there light should lighten those of the house and that a citty built on a hill though it be not hid to those that are â—eare vnto it yet to those that dwell in another cuntrey farre of it may bee hid and that therefore though this place were as properly to be vnderstood of al true Pastors as of the Apostles that yet â—t inferreth not that their persons and light should bee seene and â—iscerned but of them that be nigh them or ioined with them in the â—ame house or communion of religion And as for that in the 4 to the Eph. though it proue that there shall be teachers in the Church to gather togither the Saintes and to edifie the body of Christ vntill it be brought to perfection yet it proueth not therefore your visibility of them neither doeth that in the 62 of Esay For it onely sheweth that God would blesse his Church with watchfull and discreet pastours which accordingly after he performed But there is nothing saied to proue that they and their succession in the truth should be so visible apparent as you dreame of But to awake you out of this dreame you must heare and vnderstand that though it be as certaine that neither the trueth nor teachers thereof hath at any time or shal hereafter vtterly faile or cease to be in the Church as it is that the Church if selfe coÌ„tinueth euer neuer quite ceaseth yet thereupon it followeth not that therefore both the trueth and teachers thereof haue so continued a personall succession one vnto another or one immediatly after another and are withal so visible and apparent that their names and places may straight not onely then but alwaies after of euery one as you vpon these places would infer be pointed and painted out And for the confirmation proofe hereof let vs briefely take a view of the state of the Church froÌ„ time to time as it is set downe vnto vs in the holy Scriptures And in this point let vs beginne with the Church when in respect of all the former times it was best setled began to haue the most visible apparence namely when vnder the conduict by the seruice of Iosua God had placed it in Canaan After this though God therein had established a Priesthood tied it Leuit. 10. by his ordinaÌ„ce promise to the tribe of Leui though the Church theÌ„ had most notable promises of Gods presence fauour towards it Psal 68.2 Chro. 33.2 Chr. 7. Esa 60.62.63 yet for al this for the sinnes iniquities of the people it was driueÌ„ ofteÌ„ into those streights that successioÌ„ of priests pastors was interrupted of the teachers of the professors of the trueth there could hardly be made demoÌ„stration For in the time of the iudges that followed Iosua as it appeareth in the booke of theÌ„ Cap. 10.13 c. it had many such ecclipses that we read ther of their general Idolatry other sinnes therefore of their slauery vnder heatheÌ„ princes in Gods iustice laied vpoÌ„ theÌ„ diuers times for many yeares togither in the meane time we finde little mention either of priest or people that feared God aright And in Elies time 1. Sa. 2. the priesthood al grew so corrupt that therefore by Samuel Elie is threatned that the priesthood notwithstanding Gods promise Leu. 10. should be traÌ„slated froÌ„ his house after we read Cap. 4. that the very Arke of God was lost takeÌ„ of the Philistines And it canot be denied but the God had his church in Israel in king Achabs time For Obadiah had theÌ„ hid 100 prophets in two caues 1. King 18. God himselfe told Eliah that he had 7000 there that had not bowed their knees vnto Baal Cap. 19. yet Eliah though there theÌ„ a prophet was so far froÌ„ being able to name theÌ„ to point out who they were what they were the he thought himselfe in that kingdome to be left alone And in the kingdome of Iudah where in coÌ„parison of the kingdome of the ten tribes the Church vsually had a more visible estate yet in the latter end of Salomons raigne RehobohaÌ„s Ahiiahs the estate thereof was so growen out of order that the prophet Azariah saied vnto king Asa their next successour there hauing relatioÌ„ to the state of the Church in the kingdoÌ„ as suÌ„dry good interpreters take his words now for a long seasoÌ„ Israel hath bene without the true God without priest to teach without law 2. Chr. 15. Be like then their successioÌ„ their naÌ„es were not so visible as you seeme to imagin alwaies they must be in the Church And though by Asa his son Iehosaphat the church was wel reformed again yet in king Ahaz time as appeareth 2. Chr. 28.2 King 16. grosse Idolatry ouerspred the kingdoÌ„e so that the teÌ„ple was
suffering their Croniclers to mention them or else in causing them to deface them with strange name and false slaunders maketh it very hard yea if impossible no marueile you hauing the euidences whereby we should doe it for the most part a long time in your owne keeping to vse at your owne pleasure for vs to name from time to time the places and persons that haue alwaies succeeded one another for the continuance of our faith and Church But to returne againe to the consideration of this place of the Canticles further I saie as I saied before that you erre in alleadging this or any other place of the Scripture to proue that the Church of Christ may safely account those flockes in possession of the trueth and therefore to bee followed and those sheepheardes true sheepheardes and therefore meete alwaies to bee consented vnto that lineally downe from Christ can deduce their personall succession For so as I haue shewed in the first Chapter and it is not denyed of your selues sundry heretiques in their times haue done and can doe still If therefore you say you meane still that flocke and those sheepheardes that together with their visible personall succession haue alwaies beene in possession of the true ancient faith I answere first you begge still the thing in question in supposing that to haue beene alwaies ioyned with your flockes and sheepheards which we say and are able to proue they fell from many hundreth yeares ago Secondly I tell you once againe and now this time for all that you shall neuer bee able to proue but that both that personall succession may bee separated from trueth and also trueth from it and that therefore it is neither a certaine meanes to knowe the trueth nor the Church of Christ by Thirdly for your collection out of this place for the iustifying of your Church before ours because as you say from time to time for this thousand and fiue hundreth yeares you can shew the descent and continuance of yours and we cannot of ours for one hundreth yeares no not beyonde the yeare one thousand fiue hundreth and seuenteene we affirme that both in the one and in the other herein you write vntruely For first if your Church as it is now either in respect of the doctrine or gouernement thereof bee compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apostles times or for many hundreth yeares after there is such diuersitie betwixt the one and the other as that the one beeing founde the chast spouse of Christ the other must needes bee proued to bee the very whoar of Babylon The simplicity of the ministerie that then was is turned amongst you into a pompous Lordly and more then Princely prelacy And then the Church was fedde with the pure worde of God conteyned in the Scriptures and so ledde thereby perfectly to vnderstand the will of God and with you as carefullie as may bee that is kept from her and in steede thereof shee is fedde with the dreames inuentions and traditions of men Then she was taught to account the name of Christ the onelie name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and therefore that in him all thinges were prepared Math. 22. and now with you besides him Saintes Angels your owne merites and the merites of others satisfaction in this life by your selues and after by others with a number of baser things must ioyne with him in the office of intercession betwixt vs and God and in the most glorious worke of our saluation as though hee either could not or would not go perfectly through with the worke of our saluation in himselfe and by himselfe but had so begunne it as that the accomplishing and perfecting thereof were left to these vaine and foolish by-meanes Then her faithfull doctours and teachers taught her that Christ in saying Hoc est corpus meum this is my body meant that it was a signe figure of his body as you may reade in Augustine against Adimantus the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. against Marcion cap. 4. and in infinite places elsewhere in the ancient fathers and now contrary to nature yea to the verie nature of a sacrament contrary to the analogie of faith and good manners yours teach that those wordes being vttered by your Priestes thereupon followeth such a transubstantiation of the bread into his bodie that whosoeuer receiueth the outward parte of that sacrament receiueth in by his mouth the naturall bodie of Christ If thus I were disposed to go a long as farre as I might and to leade the reader to a full view of the difference betwixt the Romish Church that nowe is and that which hath beene I should euen therewith make a great booke But further of these differences I haue noted as you may reade Chapter 19. 20. and else where in this booke And Doctor Fulke against Stapletons Fortresse hath noted out of Bede and other authours of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the English Saxons in the time of Augustine the monke who was 600. yeares after Christ at the least and the Popish church that now is and infinite be the differences then betwixt the Church before in her puerer times and the Popish Synagogue now And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge neither you nor all your fellowes shall euer be able to proue indeede that your personall succession hath beene ioyned with the continuance of one and selfesame doctrine of Christ vnto these daies And to come to the other point therein I saie you write vntruely also For so far of is it that we graunt Luther to haue beene the first that preached the Gospell that wee now embrace and that wee cannot shewe by whom and where it was preached and receaued before that there is nothing more common with vs in answering this your obiection of newnes then to tell you that so farre of is it that it is newe indeede that it is the very ancient Religion and Gospell taught both in the olde testament and newe and therefore though it grieue you wee tell you that the ancient Patriarches and Prophets Christ and his Apostles taught the verie same and no other and all the ancient doctours and fathers as farre forth as they were able to iustify that which they taught by the Scriptures were sheepheardes of our church and teachers of our Religion Indeede we confesse that as Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiahs time 2. King 22. found the booke of God and was so a meanes to bring those thinges to light that by the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a certaine season lien hid So Luther in these late daies was a singuler instrument of God to reuiue and bring to light diuerse pointes of Christian faith which your Antichristian Synagogue had long laboured to smother and hide from the eies of the Church And yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion then vpon the former it followed that Hilkiah was then first the
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
you would make it But be it though you only say both proue neither of theÌ„ against theÌ„ that they held it in the worst sence now stil that also as you say in certaine other smaller things they hold otherwise then was held by Chrysostom Cyrill Basil Athanasius yet I say will staÌ„d vnto it that as daÌ„gerous heresies mo in nuÌ„ber be held of your own coÌ„pany against the truth of Christs person office theÌ„ they hold in all in far more greater points of weight are you gone froÌ„ the ancient fathers that haue beene in the latin church wtin the first 600. yeares theÌ„ they haue done froÌ„ theirs And therefore in the meane time whiles you will ioyne this issue with vs vntil you haue disproued this my assertioÌ„ by the same reason you reiect their succession will we perseuere in reiecting yours Now whereas you secondly imagine that we labour to weakeÌ„ ouerthrow the force of your argument taken from succession by laiâ—ng out the lewde liues negligence in doing of their duties in many of those pastours Bishops of whose succession you boast true it is that prouoked by your too too great brags of your personall succession by your immoderate railing against some of our pastours and ministers whom yet you cannot staine but with false and maliciously deuised tales sometimes some of vs haue beene occasioned to cast your owne dunge into your faces And we being able as wee are euen out of your owne stories so iustly to lay such a number of most notorious thinges to the charge of verie many of your greatest Prelates and the matter being notorious that fewe or none of your Popes and Archprelates euer take it vpon them by preaching to feede Gods people which is the principall duety of a Bishop we thinke still that that which we say and obiect against you in this behalfe may iustly cause you to be ashamed of such fathers so to cease both your bragge of succeeding them your railing against vs. To disproue the force of this our allegation you dispute the matter as though we went about to proue that the succession of trueth hath ceased in the Church because we thus obiect against the persons of many of your predecessours whereas we most constantly holde beleeue that it hath alwaies continued and that though you grow ten times worse then any that hath beene before you it shall stil vnto the worldes ende But withall we tell you it hath beene continued by others and not by those wicked and negligent pastours and predecessours of yours that we speake against For as their liues were deuilish so was their doctrine Antichristian as yours their childrens is Too too foolish therefore is it that you write that wee doe no lesse offende God in laying forth the liues of sundry of your Popes thinking thereby to ouerthrow the succession of the catholique Ecclesiasticall faith then if one should go about to ouerthrow the promise of Christ to the Patriarches because of the bad liues of diuerse of their successours For we holde that the Succession of the Catholique faith hath continued and will to verify that promise of Christ Matthew 16. though neuer so many of your popes go to the deuil Neither did we euer in laying forth their most filthy liues thinke thereby to ouerthrow the Succession of faith for we neuer tooke them to haue any society or coniunction with it since they became such But you still according to your old woont taking it for giuen which shal neuer be offred you that their personall succession and the catholique trueth went alwaies togither which we doe most earnestly deny imagined that wee could not speake against the one but that therein also we sought to ouerthrow the other when as we are perswaded that of al other persons vnder heauen your Popes for this long time haue beene Sathans most forcible meanes to ouerthrow both the Apostolique trueth and Catholique Church Wherefore you see you might wel haue spared your paynes in the greatest part of this Chapter and so let any that hath witte iudge whither it be not great folly for any man to be so simple as to seeke to be the childe of such fathers as neither had honestie nor any soundnesse of religion as many of your Popes for any thing that you haue yet saied to the contrary haue beene whose children yet how bad soeuer you would haue men to be The VIII Chapter VPon Moises Chaire there sitteth sayeth our Sauiour Christ who not the godliest meÌ„ of the world but the Scribes Pharises doe that they saie but not that that they doe But if our new Gospellers had beene in those daies they would haue tolde Christ that his commandement was not to be obserued because the liues of Anna and Caiphas were not correspondent vnto those of Moises Aaron for the first came to the vocation of priesthood being called of God but the last attained to it by the vocation of their a As many of yours doe or by worse means or else your owne frends bely theÌ„ purses and yet notwithstanding rather then our Sauiour would breake this harmonie of the misticall bodie of the Church he was not onely content to permit that Caiphas should execute his office although hee was vnworthy as one that came to it by Simonie but rather he did confirme his pontificat with the gift of the Spirit of Prophesying with the which he was b That is grosse blasphemy as fullie inspired as euer was Dauid Esay or any of the rest and all to teach vs that that I haue alreadie saied I meane that the Ecclesiastical order the administration of the Sacraments doe not consist in the good or euill liues of the pastours but onelie of God and of his word interpreted by them As touching that that appertaineth to our health God hath no regard to the life of the magistrate temporal or ecclesiasticall for he can aswell serue him with an euill person to doe good to the common wealth as of a good as the godlie prophesies of the wicked Balaam doe well witnesse Num. 24. And here is to be noted that when we talke of the succession of Bishops and of the doctrine continuing in the Church we doe not meane onely to talke of the c Indeede you doe wisely to call for helpe of others for otherwise the necke of your successioÌ„ hath often bene shamefully broken Popes but of all the Bishops and other hauing Ecclesiastical charges not onelie at Rome but thorow al other places where the true preaching and right administration of the Sacraments be vsed And therefore you doe pretend in vaine to proue that the aboue mentioned succession hath beene interrupted by the discention of Popes Antipopes and by the Ciuil warres that haue bene at Rome in times past For although that the Sea of Rome was vacant for a time the Chaires of Bishops in France Spaine England and
seede and then is he taught how to liue in his vocation wherein lieth the sum of that Religion which wee now teach and preach For first we teach men how to serue God according to his owne reuealed wil not according to their owne fansie as you doe Secondly finding men many waies to decline from this rule wee labour to make them see their sins and the danger thereof which wheÌ„ we haue done we send theÌ„ only to Iesus Christ for help and comfort In both with you also offend first whiles you keepe men froÌ„ seeing the multitude and grieuousnes of their sinnes by extenuating the power of original sin by making maÌ„ beleeue that the fulfilling of the law is now possible vnto him that many sins of their owne nature for their littlenes are veniall and that the first motions of sinne arising from the corruption of our owne hearts not consented vnto are no sin and then you go from this most ancient order of God in that you send men for their recouerie not only to Iesus Christ but to their owne freewill merits and satisfaction to a nuÌ„ber of thinges very trifling and ridiculous by vse and doing whereof you would perswade them they shall purchase to themselues remission of their sinnes In the 3. point also we follow the patterne of our heauenly father calling vpon euery man according to his calling to get his liuing in an honest vocation with the sweate of his browes and shewing woman that in lawfull wedlocke if by nature or otherwise she haue not the gift of continencie though to her paine sorrow she is for the encreasing of Gods kingdome and the common weale wherein shee liueth to conceaue and beare children whereas you drawe both the one and the other herefrom into Hermitages Cloisters and Nunries there to liue an idle life out of all vocation profitable to the Church or common weale And we are perswaded that this Religion and consequently a Church to holde and embrace it hath euer since vnto these daies continued And we graunt you also that though God for the sinnes of his people doe afflict his Church diuers times and that grieuously as he did the Isralites with the 70. yeares captiuity yet then he doeth not leaue them without teachers to comfort them and therefore in all ages and times doe constantly beleeue in one place or other that this our ReligioÌ„ and Church hath had some such Yet you must take this with you that in such times of the afflictioÌ„ of the Church the ordinary state of the ministrie thereof hath often failed For you haue heard Azariah the prophet tel king Asa in respect of such times as were before his time that Israell a long season had beene without the true God without prophet to teach and without lawe 2. Chron. 15. And in the 3 of Hosea you may reade prophecied that the children of Israell shall remaine many daies without a King without a Prince without an offring without an image without an Ephod and without Teraphim by which wordes the Prophet plainely foresheweth an interruption should be of their outward ordinary visible ministry And euen in respect of the time that you meÌ„tion it appeareth in the 2. of the Imâ—â—â—ntat that the like was fulfilled in the Church in respect of that time of their captiuity in Babylon For there Ieremie lamenting the state of the Church then saieth The Lord hath caused the feastes and Sabbothes to be forgotten in Sion and hath despised in the indignation of his wrath the King and the Priests the Lord hath forsaken his altar hath abhorred his sanctuary And when those prophecies of the florishing of Antichrist 2. Thes 2. and Reuel 17. and that of the Churches being driued into the wildernes and there remaining for a time Reuel 12. should be fulfilled who seeth not that it is no strange thing but a thing plainly foreshewed should be that neither the church herselfe nor her teachers should be very visible and apparent And therefore speaking of those times when indeede those prophesies were verified as you doe you doe our church and her ministers great double wrong first in thus chasing theÌ„ into the wildernes there to saue themselues from your fury and then yet in exacting at our handes the names of them whom God by thus hiding of them preserued to continue his church And yet as I haue shewed you before cap. 4. in the mercie of God wheÌ„ your AntichristiaÌ„ Synagogue florished most in Bohemia other places the Christians called WaldeÌ„ses were many and has diuers assemblies schools churches and ministers Why theÌ„ say you haue you not or do you not run to theÌ„ that by theÌ„ you may haue your ministers ordeined or confirmed if you haue tell vs their names that did it I answere you we haue thought it needles seeing as I haue shewed otherwise both our former later ministers nearer home had both ordinatioÌ„ confirmation that well enough serued their turnes Besides I am sure you caÌ„not be ignoraÌ„t but it hath ben an ordinary thing with God wheÌ„ the ordinary ministers of the church consequently the outward face couÌ„tenance thereof hath bene corrupted gon froÌ„ y truth waies of the lord to raise extraordinarily prophets and others to seeke procure the reformatioÌ„ thereof as it appeareth by raising vp from time to time Prophets amongst the Israelites in the ruins and corruptions of his church who should haue had wrong offred if they should not haue bene receiued as the Lords ministers vntill either they could get ordinary admission of the Prelates then to reform whose corruptions they were seÌ„t or vntil they could shew the names of some other prophets that had ordinarily succeeded others also ordeined them Which is the very case of the Lords faithful ministers whom he hath vsed first in any nation without the ordinary calling of the daies immediatly going before to detect lay opeÌ„ the horrible corruptioÌ„s thrust vpon the Church by the papacy For they fouÌ„d that the word of God was concealed hid froÌ„ the people that insteede thereof they were fed with the inuentions and traditions of men y the honour that was due to God alone was turned vnto meÌ„ vnto images that the bloud of Christ was ineffect trodeÌ„ vnderfoot in that so many by waies were sought to atteine to heaueÌ„ by besides Christ that the sacrament of his body bloud was turned into grosse Idolatry the vse quite peruerted To be short they found al the holy scripture prophaned poisoned which the Popes glosses false interpretatioÌ„s These things therfore being thus the lord reueling vnto theÌ„ his truth because the time was come that Antichrist must be detected the lord gaue vnto theÌ„ the spirit of courage and boldnes first to notifie these corruptions to the Prelates of your church and to craue at their haÌ„ds the reformation thereof but finding that that would not be because sathaÌ„ will
be perceiued that none of these points as they are now taught by you were receiued for catholicke 360. years ago For if when they brake of cōmunion from you these had then beene so accoūted and taken doubtles they had then bene acquainted with these and so by al likelihood had held them as they doe other things which with you they had learned before vnto this day I am not ignorant that not long after in Gregory the tenthes tyme in a councell at Lyons and after that agayne in the Florentine councell labour was made to bring them to cōmunion vnion with you againe and that in the first Michael Paleologus so the better to compasse helpe to keepe his kingdome which with brutish murder he had got and some other of his frends assented vnto a decree to that end and that in the other likewise Iohannes Paleologus Emperour of Constātinople and the patriarch there with some other greeke bishops amongst whom was Bessarion assented in some sort to your Popes title and your doctrin of purgatory But withal good reader I must tel thee that I finde the consenting of the first was so misliked of the rest of the bishops of Grecia when they came home that the stories report that euen therefore they held them that so assented alwaies after as persons cut of from the communion of their Church and when they died denyed them the honour of buriall And that likewise the same stories report not onely that in the later by no meanes they coulde be brought to allow of transubstantiation though there they were vrged much thereunto but that for their yeelding in the other they were so resisted when they came at home by one Marcus the bishop of Ephesus and other bishops that they were brought to recant and to declare merely voide al that they had done there yea moreouer it is recorded in an anciēt register of the church of Herford that in 29. articles there also set down the greek Church differeth quite from your Romā church And therfore hereby it should seeme that these points of popery which it hath not yet receiued were either not at all or at least not vniuersally receaued before the foresaied breach and that therfore these haue not 400 years continuāce on their backs which comes far short of your account of 1500. years Further euident and apparent proofes there are to make it vtterly without all question that both these many other points of the Roman religion that now is are far yoūger then your reckoning For before the coūcel of Cōstance in the yeare 1414. we finde not the ministering the cōmuniō in both kinds publickly forbid to the cōmon cōmunicāt And in the councel of Basil it was permitted againe in the year 1431. to the Bohemiās to receiue vnder both kinds so there from that day to this many haue vsed to doe Certaine it is as it appeares in the first Epistle of Cypriā that in his time with was 260. years after christ it was by him accounted absurd to deny the cup to any communicant de consecratione dist 2. it is recorded that Gelasius who was a bishop of Rome about the yeare 500 made a flat decree to binde al men to receiue in both kinds saying Either let him that receiueth receiue both or neither because the diuision of one mistery cannot bee without sacrilege and yet now your Popes their councels which you hold cannot erre condēne it for a cursed heresie to holde it to be needful that this sacrament should be receiued of al communicants in both kinds And it appeares in the same distinction Cap. peracta That Pope Calixt in the yeare 223 made a flat lawe contrary to your receiued vse now of your priests receuing al alone For there he decrees that cōsecratiō being done al that wil not be shut frō the church should cōmunicate for so saith he the apostles taught the fashiō thē of the Romā church was How is it thē that your Roman Church that now is contrary to this ancient decree thus grounded both vpon the authority of the Apostles the practise then of that church in this point now practiseth the quite contrary Trāsubstantiation the very life of your masse your owne doctor Tonstal in his book of the sacramēt diuers other of your frēds as I haue shewed before Cap. 11. cōfesse was not enacted decreed for a catholicke truth amōgst your selues before Innocēt the 3 time 1215 in the Laterā coūcel which was after the greeke church was gone from you so it was rather the decree of a particuler assembly then of the Catholique Church and therefore no marueile though the Greekes reiect this your councel and decree Your owne schoole-men Canonists and Croniclers as Durand Albertus Gabriel Biel Innocentius Vrspergensis and others shew from point to point and frō peece to peece who inuented deuised your masse withall the ceremonies thereof as also Polidor in his 5. booke and 9. Chapter of the inuentours of things and Platina in the liues of the Popes and namely in the life of Pope Sixtus the first It was so long a licking before it came to the shape it now hath and was patched together as it appeares in these and other your owne writers by so many Popes so long distant one from an other in time that it would require a good pretty long treatise to set downe the seuerall shreds and morselles thereof with the authours and deuisers of them Which things considered it is the likest a beggers cloake consisting of an infinite sort of patches at sundry times and of sundry colours sowed and cobled together that can be The masse now vsed in your church commonly called S. Gregories masse was first receaued and established in the time of Pope Adrian 780. years after Christ at the least for others accoūt it more as witnesseth Durand Nauclere Iacobus de voragine in the life of Gregorie the first for before that S. Ambrose Lyturgie was much in vse And the last of these authours reports that when with much a do Adrian had got it to bee decreede in a councell that S. Gregories masse should be vniuersally vsed and Charles the Emperour had laboured both by faire and foule meanes to cause the same decree to bee executed and yet many would hardly be drawen from the vse of Saint Ambroses one Eugenius seing this stir about it gaue the Pope this graue aduise that the bookes of both the Lyturgies should be layed vpon the altar of S. Peter and that the Church dores should carefully be shut and sealed with the signets of sundry Bishops and that then they should giue themselues all that night to earnest prayer that God by some euident signe might shew which of thē he would haue to be vsed whose counsell being in euery point followed in the next morning when they went into the church they found as saieth the story onely S. Ambrose booke opened and lying vpon the
lib. 5. that he doeth omit nothing in his Historie but that that doeth go against himselfe and the professours of his religion I doe wish those that doe vnderstande the Latin to reade this answere of Luther in the Commentaries themselues and for the rest I vvill set it forth translated not by mee but by a minister of your ovvne sect called Robert Preuost vvho dvvelleth in a segnorie of Berne According to his translation the vvordes are b And Luther had reason so to aduise them first because he had no lawful ordinary calling and then because the doctrine which hee set abroach was contrary to the scriptures which is not our case these Luther was of opinion that the Senate of Milhouse should doe very wel and wisely to demaund of Muncer who had giuen him commission to teach and who had called him vnto it If hee say that it is God let him demaunde of him to shew some signe or miracle to proue his vocation and if hee coulde not doe it that they should banishe him for it is common to God to declare his vvill by some miracle at anie tyme when hee vvill haue the common custome and order changed These are the words of Luther We ought to yeelde that that is right to euerie bodie not depriue anie mā of the praise that he doth deserue And so I say al the Catholicke Church is bound to giue praise thanks to Luther for the memorable good wise coūsel that he hath giuē for he hath taught vs how we shal expel ouerthrow not only the heresies that he did preach vnto vs but likewise yours those of al the rest For if it be so that euerie time that God wil chaunge the ordinarie custome such as ours to an extraordinary such as yours there ought miracles to be shewed by those that come extraordinarily By this good godly aduise we know that Martin Luther nor none of you all vvhich doe come extraordinarily as he did doe come from God but rather from the prince of darkenes Caluin doeth confirme this opinion of Luther as touching the vocation of the ministerie for vpon the third Chapter of Saint Luke in his harmonie hee doeth saie thus None ought to attribute vnto himselfe by authority any office forasmuch as it is great temeritie such persons did nothing of them selues except it were being called to it by God Of this we gather we ought to enterprise nothing of our selues for if that the great Prophets haue attended to be called of God what are those that in these daies take it vpon them of them selues we ought to answere that they are presumptuous fellowes c. like vnto Caluin and his fellowes The XXI Chapter IN this Chapter to your purpose the onely thing you bring vs is the counsell that Luther gaue to the towne of Millehouse for the triall of Muncer the Anabaptist which you send vs by your quotation to seeke for in the 8. booke of Sleidon and there it is not but in the 5. but this is your happe with most of your quotations His counsell was that they should will him to proue his calling to be of God by some miracle because it is common with God to declare his will by some miracle when he will haue the common custome and order broken Proue that we either in our doctrine or gouernment of our church doe breake the common custome and order taught in the church for these in the writen word as Muncer did and then follow Luthers counsell and spare not It euidently appeareth in that booke that Muncer was a monstrous fantasticall Anabaptist and that in Luthers iudgement he taught not onely many absurde thinges contrary to the word but that also peruerting all good order and pollicie of Church and common weale he meant nothing more then force theeuerie and other such villanie and yet pretended for his defence extraordinary calling and reuelations and therefore no maruel though Luther gaue this counsell for the sifting of such a wretch In trueth the newnes of your doctrine considered in comparison of that taught in the word and the strangenesse of the order of your Church from that of Christes in the primatiue time thereof leade vs rather more iustly to followe this counsell of Luther against you then any thing in vs can truely moue you to vrge it against vs. Which if we should doe certainely either should we finde you as voide of miracles as you finde vs or at least you would be driuen to alleadge such monstrous vaine and lying miracles as that now I thinke you your selues would be ashamed to tell Indeede the time hath beene when you would bragge of the miracles set downe in your Legends amongst which S. Dunstans catching the Deuil by the nose in the shape of a woman with a paire of tonges and such like good store are reckoned vp and when we were told great wōders of the bloud of Hales which proued in the ende the bloud of a ducke and of great miracles done in this place or that place by the images of this Saint and that but this was in the night of deepe and black darkenes of ignorāce For now that the sunne of the Gospel shineth abroad we heare little noise of your apparitions and visions and other such antichristian miracles that there was so great talke of before It seemeth now that either your spirits are coniured into a dead sleepe or that you haue lost your old gift of working miracles Belike yet in that you make thus much of this counsel of Luther when they came from you so readily and your Church had such a dexterity and was so fruitful in bringing of thēforth it was because God would haue the world to vnderstand that indeed you were setting abroach a new doctrine and a fashion of Gouernment which neither agreed with the ancient and customable doctrine of his Church nor yet with the olde order of the same and that therfore you thought it needfull by such meanes to confirme your commission in so doing Wherfore make as much of this counsell of Luther as you wil it wil proue in the end to touch you more then vs. You cite also a saying of Caluin in his 3. Chapter of his Harmonie vpon Luke but to what purpose For who of vs euer either in word or deed contraried that speach or doctrine of his that is the thing that we obiect against you that of your own heads ye haue deuised a nūber of offices and orders in your Churches that God neuer gaue allowance vnto and besides that you haue set vp a number of pointes of doctrine forged but in the shop of mans vaine braine not onely not agreing to the word writen but diuersly and wonderfully disagreeing And as for vs we stand vpon that point with you that wee neither take office in hand without sufficiēt calling thereunto from God nor teach things that we haue not good warrant for from his writē word In the
of such vayne wordes as these aboue twenty times I am sure without any proofe at al therein repeated Indeed if in al your life you could proue but halfe so much as confidently here you set downe then you were a notable fellow indeede and then truely we would striue no longer with you But in the meane time seeing we know your speeches are such as you can neuer proue and that we are able against you both to proue the falshoode of yours and the trueth of our owne blame vs not if wee esteeme not your words Yet lest you should saie that these likewise are but words in vs as the former haue beene in you though I see no reason to the contrary but that our words containing a iust and true denial of yours were sufficient confutation thereof I say and will proue it that you shew your selfe a man past al shame in writing here as you doe that all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day al the doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires kingdomes priuate states throughout al the world are against vs for they haue al receiued honoured that doctrine that we count papisticall For first such is the newnes thereof as I haue plentifully shewed in diuers places already of this booke that none of all these for sundry 100. yeares were once euer acquainted therwith yea that diuers of your assertions which are the very principallest of your opinions as namely your dotcrine of Transubstantiation of your Popes being in authority aboue generall Councels and of denying the cuppe to the lay people are not yet of 400. yeares age and continuance And it is notoriously knowen that in the daies of Gregory the 9 about the yeare of Christ 1230 by occasion of iniury and oppression offered by the Pope to that Church that the Greeke Easterne Churches departed quite from the Church of Rome and neuer since though it hath beene oft attempted could be brought to hold communion therewith againe insomuch that in your conuenticle at Trent you haue condemned them for schismatical and heretical Churches And these Churches as it is noted in an ancient record in the Church of Herford differ from yours at the least in 29 articles And they holde yours excommunicate and an Apostata Church vnto this day And vnlesse your reading be very small you cannot be ignorant that Math Paris writeth that the Patriarch of Constantinople at the Councell of Lyons shortly after this breach shewed that of 30. bishoprickes in Greece the Pope had not three that then held communion with him and that all Antioch and the Empire of Romania to the gates of Constantinople was gone quite from him There is also extant in print in ancient record an Epistle writen about seuen yeares after this breach began in the yeare 1237 by one Germanus Patriarch of Constantinople vnto the Pope wherein not only he laboureth to make him see that the occasion therof was that he tooke more vpon him ouer those Churches then he should but amongst other argumēts to persuade him to see his folly he sheweth him that not onely the Greeke Churches themselues but that al so the Aethiopians Syrians Hiberians Alani Gothi Charari with innumerable people of Russia and the mighty kingdome of the Vulgarians held communion with his Church of Constantinople and so by occasion of this schisme had forsakē felowship with the Roman Church And the Cosmographers write that the iurisdiction of the Patriarch of Canstantinople reacheth so farre that all Greece Misia Belgaria Thrasia Walachia Moldauia Russia Muscouia the iles of the Aegaean sea and Asia the lesse bee vnder the same It is also reported by authours of good credit that at this day vnder the other Patriarchs of Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem and vnder the other in the dominions of Presbyter Iohn in Africa there be infinit numbers of Churches and Christians differing from yours and ioining with ours in manie thinges So that Churches also both in the East North and South and that of very great amplitude within the time that you speake of haue professed Christ and yet haue neuer beene acquainted with most or many at the least of the pointes for the which your religion is counted of vs Papisticall in all which there haue beene some doctours vniuersities Empires Princes and priuate men no doubt since Christ before you wrote that neither honoured nor receiued your papistical religiō Yea but that merueilously you ouershot your selfe you might haue remembred that within the time limited by you in these Westerne partes there haue beene euen vnder your Popes nose and in his greatest ruffe many doctours vniuersities and some Emperours kings and priuate estates that haue neither receiued nor so honoured your religiō which we cal papistical as here you would beare your reader in hand For euen in these parts and within the compasse of these times haue bene you know Wickliffe Hus and Luther vniuersities kingdomes good store haue had both your religion Church in defiance long before you wrote He that readeth but the stories of Philip Lodovicke the last French kings of Henry the 4 5. of the 2. Fredericks the 1 2 Emperours and the Cronicles of king Iohn here in England and of 2 or 3 of his successours he shal easily perceiue that much within the compasse of time that you speake of both Empires and Kingdomes with their Emperours and Kings haue beene far from making that reckoning of your popish Church and religion that you here bragge of or else doubtlesse you must needs confesse that your Popes haue beene vnreasonable creatures that haue so cursed and banned these men as they haue and which besides haue caused such infinite Christian bloud to be by warre shed to hamper them These things considered euen children may see not onely the vanity but grosse falshood of these your wordes For howsoeuer either here or else where in this your booke you would cause your reader to beleeue that your Romish Church is the catholicke Church of Christ euery one indeed may see that in trueth it is but a particuler and a petty Diocesse in comparison of the catholicke Church of Christ For the reader must vnderstand that the Church of Christ is called catholicke first because the religion that shee imbraceth is that which hath beene at al times will be to the end the true religiō of God secondly because the same Church in respect of the mēbers therof especially since the calling of the Gentiles is not to be limited or shut vp within the compasse of any particuler countries but may vniuersally be dispersed amongst all nations and in al countreyes where it pleaseth the Lord. In neither of which sences can the Romish Church be truly accounted catholick For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Christ embraced was in possessiō of for 4000 years more neither are the
but indeed truth they haue neither al nor any of these in that sort to speake for theÌ„ as he would make his Reader beleeue For first there is plaine contrariety betwixt their doctrine the doctrine of the auncient holy fathers in a number of most weighty points as I haue shewed at large ca. 17. 29. likewise in that both ther also c. 39. 40. in that I shew that they hold many things directly contrary to the ancient generall councels I plentifully proue that they are destitute of the commoÌ„ consent of ChristiaÌ„ regions And as for the last though it were graÌ„nted theÌ„ that they may truly preteÌ„d long continuaÌ„ce of time yet seing it is true that Tertullian de velandis virginibus hath said Quodcunque aduersus veritateÌ„ sapit heraesis est etiaÌ„ vetus coÌ„suetudo that is whatsoeuer sauoreth against the truth is heresy though it be an old custome seing also it is certaine that Cyprian ad PompeiuÌ„ saith custome must not let truth to preuaile for custoÌ„e without truth is but oldnes of error that could do theÌ„ litle good we being alwaies able as webe to proue by the scriptures souÌ„dly interpreted by al souÌ„d antiquity that they are gone loÌ„g agoe froÌ„ the trueth But in deed though popery be too ancieÌ„t so hath had soÌ„e coÌ„tinuaÌ„ce of time yet it is but a yongling in respect of that which they pretend And this I haue also proued cap. 17. in suÌ„dry other places of my answere following Yea that more is which will goe nearer then I haue proued that indeed we for our Religion Church haue not only prescription of some longtime but also of all times ages eueÌ„ froÌ„ the beginning c. 4.9 17. And yet this point of antiquity prescriptioÌ„ of time is a thing that they so coÌ„fideÌ„tly staÌ„d vpoÌ„ that in the offer annexed to Iohn de Albines book that proud chaleÌ„ger offreth to recaÌ„t if we caÌ„ shew where wheÌ„ in what yeare of the lord vnder what Emperor by whoÌ„ popery caÌ„e in by whoÌ„ of our side it was gain said which though I haue I hope sufficieÌ„tly shewed in the chapters last before quoted yet because the answe riÌ„gfully to this point the remouig of this obiectioÌ„ wil both bluÌ„t the edge of this his brag greatly crack the credit of popery I wil voutsafe soÌ„ewhat more here to set down to the coÌ„futatioÌ„ of it Hereunto therefore whereas the foresaid offerer and others of that side so stand vpon the antiquity of their Church and Religion that they would seeme we must needes grant that they are even as auncient as they pretend vnles we can shew when where by whoÌ„ a sodaine change froÌ„ our ReligioÌ„ to theirs was made that some of our side theÌ„ preseÌ„tly espied it withstood it vnreasonable it is that they demaunde For popery being not one or two particular heresies nor such a masse or heape of heresies whose property is to burst in all at once of the sodaine shewing it selfe with open and bare face at the first but as it is tearmed 2. Thess 2. a mistery of iniquity and therefore a false ReligioÌ„ creeping in cuÌ„ningly by litle litle as it were by stealing steps that hiddeÌ„ asmuch as might bee vnder the shew colour of holines through hypocrisy 1. Tim. 4. Reu. 13. v. 11. no maruaile though it were not only verie hard but euen impossible in euery respect to satisfie this demaunde And yet for al this were popery neuer a whit the more to be liked For as we see by experience that ostentimes there is far more daunger in those diseases that steale vppon a man by little and little and therefore are not resisted at the first then in those that are apparant and violent when they begin and therefore then are they more carefully withstoode and looked vnto euen so oftentimes also it falles out in errours and heresies that they of al other in the end proue the most dangerous whose beginnings haue beene most close and secret and whose growing to their perfection hath not been of the sodaine but in long tract of time Indeede those diseases that come vpon the sodaine and are violent in their fulnes at the first men at the first may espy and complaine of but so it is not not cannot be alwaies in the other We see also that though it be an easy matter to name the father of a lawfully begotten childe yet no man commonly can tell who is the father of the base sonne of a common woman But to make it yet more cleare that popery may be naught as it is yet this his demaunde be vnreasonable we are to cal to mind that Christ our sauiour who knew best how such most dangerous cankers and diseases would grow and come vp in his church hath taught vs Matth. 13. that it will not alwaies be knowen espied no not of his owne housholde seruants when and by whom first the tares are sowen in his field where he had before onely sowed good seede And there he showes vs that notwithstanding that it shall be sufficient to proue them tares in that afterwards wheÌ„ they are come vp they differ as they doe from the good seed Though therefore it were so that we could not tel when by whoÌ„ popery was first soweÌ„ in Gods field yet in that now it being growen vp therein as it is it being compared with gods good seede taken out of the garner or barne of his holy written word it differeth from it as it doth that ought to be sufficient proofe vnto vs that it is but tares of the deuils sowing by his deuilish seedsimeÌ„ whensoeuer they did it Doubtles the creeping of it in not all at once but by little and litle that with such soft sly paces the shew of holines deuotion that it hath stolen in vnder the trouble that the holy ancient fathers had in their times otherwise in confuting grosse heresies that shewed themselues such at the first and the small suspition if they had marked the beginnings hereof that were in their times that they could haue had that euer they would haue â—rowen to this that they are now haue beene so many great and â—peciall causes why the first beginnings thereof haue beene no more noted resisted then they haue beene Againe this I must â—eeds further say that it may yet very wel be that the beginning proceeding also thereof haue beene both better obserued withstood by the ancieÌ„t fathers in the primatiue church theÌ„ appeareth now vnto vs in their bookes monuments for in these parts of the world in these last 4 or 500 yeares they so raigning â—yraÌ„nizing as they did they hauing their books in their keeping â—heir care and diligence being as it was by al meanes possible to maintaine their own credit very likely is it that as they met with any thing to
that end they haue fouÌ„d the means to suppresse â—ase it out of their writings Infinite proofes and examples there â—e they know wel inough to enduce any maÌ„ to think that loue of their owne cause hatred of the truth would easily prouoke them in this case to be thus bold with their labours For in all stories since their kingdome grew to the ful not onely from time to â—ime it is noted that if God raised vp any as he did alwaies some â—s I haue shewed cap. 4. to speake write against their corruptions they tooke straight such order that if not both the men and their bookes yet at least their bookes should be burned and consumed And they that haue had when the times were far better three popes one after an other so bolde impudent thorowe an ambitious desire then of primacy to forge a false counterfaite canon of the councel of Nice and to vrge it in the opeÌ„ face of an other great famous councell of Carthage when notoriâ—ously their forgery was espied therefore they plainly tolde of it by epistles writteÌ„ vnto theÌ„ by that councel of purpose no marvel though when they had attained their ful desire of an vniuersal supremacy they durst do and did whatsoeuer they thought good to let as few monuments of antiquity remaine any way to their discredit as might be HeÌ„ce I am fully persuaded that in great part it coÌ„meth that we finde so litle as we do to bewray their beginning proceeding and the withstanding thereof in the writings of ancieÌ„t fathers Croniclers And yet though we fouÌ„d in theÌ„ far lesse then we do I say againe that thence ariseth no reason to iustifie the popish church or religion for is there any reason that a ship that is drowned by leaking a maÌ„ that is dead by a consumptioÌ„ a coÌ„moÌ„ weale that is growen froÌ„ a moderate and wel ordered gouernment to an absolute tyranny should be said to be safe in health aliue in good state because we cannot tell wheÌ„ where the ship began first to leake the maÌ„ began first to fall into his consumption and when the common weale began first to grow out of order Likely enough also is it that the great credit that the ancient bishops of Rome were in for their piety and godlinesse and the lofty estate of their successours afterwarde so dazeled on the one side the eyes of the godly in ancient time that they were not curious in resisting the doings of their successours and so bridled on the other side the tongues of the worldly minded of these latter dayes that they durst not write that which they saw all which reasons layd together make it euident that it ought to be no wonder nor yet any argument any whit at all to credit popery though this offerers demaunde could not be satisfied Howbeit this onely I haue written to shew the vnreasonablenesse of this demaunde for indeede Gods name be praysed for it hovv vnreasonable soeuer it be otherwyse vvee are able sufficiently to aunswere it For Paul hath tolde vs that this mystery of iniquity was vvorking in his dayes 2. Thes 2. vers 7. And so indeed it vvas in that euen then first their were false Apostles that laboured to corrupt the article of free and full saluation through the onely meanes and merytes of Christ Iesus teaching that it vvas necessary to saluation for them that beleeued in Christ also to bee circumcysed as it appeares Actes 15. and Gal. 5. and after that there vvere such as hereupon grew a step further namely to vrge the necessity of the obseruing of humane traditions as Touch not tast not handle not so making a shew of humblenesse of minde in worshipping of Angels and of voluntary religion in not sparing their bodies in obseruing hereof against all vvhich Saint Paul standes foorth in the places before quoted also in the second of the Colossians This damnable errour also vvas considered of and confuted in that famous Apostolike councell Actes 15. And amongst others Saint Iohn also sharpely rebuketh and condemneth the teachers of this Antichristian doctrine calling them very Antichrists and such as vvere gone out from them that so it might appeare that they were neuer of them Epist 1. Cap. 2. â—ers 18.19 And therefore as I shew Cap. 17. the church of Christ and the teachers therein vniuersally for six huÌ„dred years after Christ and more taught directly against ioining any person or thing vvith Christ in the office of iustifying and saâ—ing though now there is nothing more vsuall in the Roâ—ish church that nowe is then to teach other merites and â—atisfactions in these respects to be trusted vnto besides Christs The next Capitall poynt of Antichristianity is the nowe chalâ—enged supremacy of the Romane prelate and as for that we can â—hew both the beginning and proceeding thereof from time to â—ime and who alwaies set themselues against it The first â—mbitious clyming that way we may note in the mother of Zeâ—edeus children and her two sonnes who comming vnto Christ â—equire this of him that the one may sit at his right haÌ„d the oâ—her at his left in his kingdome and that vvas spyed to bee a â—owle fault in them by Christ and therefore by him they are â—hecked and vvithstood Matth. 20. After we read of one Diotrephes that so loued the prehemineÌ„ce that he would not receiue Iohn and such as hee was but in his third epistle vers 9. he shewes he spied him and that he did vtterly dislike that arâ—ogant ambitious humor of his yet by these warnings your bishops of Rome would not take heede but for al this would take to much vpon them ouer their brethren but when either they or others haue done so it appeares in ancient Cronicles and in the writings of the ancient fathers that they had alwayes some that did spie it and set themselues against it For when Victor bishop of Rome about the yeare of Christ two hunderd somewhat popelike so farre exceeded his bounds that he tooke vpon him to excommunicate the bishops of the East for that they would not conforme themselues to the fashion of the church of Rome in the keeping of Easter not onely Polycrates and sundry other bishops there vvithstoode him therein out here in the west Irenaeus bishop then of Lions though he were of Victors minde for the obseruing of Easter yet in his ovvne name and in the name of his brethren wrote to Victor in that his letter rebukes him for his so far proceeding as you may reade in Euseb lib. 5. cap. 22. and 23. And after this in Cyprians time about the yeare 255. when Cornelius Bishop of Rome vnaduisedly coÌ„trary to the good policy of the church and after him Stephanus tooke vpon them so to admitte of fugitiues out of Africke at Rome that not only they receaued them into their communion but tooke vpon them to labour their restitution they being before for
they haue deceiued the simple people vvithall vnderstande welbeloued in the Lord vvhosoeuer thou art first for transubstantiation the very archpiller of their Synagoge that if they bee very busie to seeke out who first gaue inkling of such a matter they shall finde indeede the originall thereof not to come from Marke the Euangelist or anie of his fellowshippe but from one Marke a notable Magitian and filthie heretique of the broode of Valentinian that liued as it seemeth by the stories in the raigne of Antoninus Pius about one hundred and fifteene yeares after Christ For Epiphanius in his thirty foure heresie noteth and when hee hath done plentifully confirmeth it out of the first booke of Irenaeus and his ninth chapter against the heresies of ValeÌ„tiniaÌ„ others that this same heretique by his enchaÌ„tmeÌ„t hauiÌ„g first caused a cup of white wine to beare the colour of blood made his followers beleeue that by his inuocation over it it was so traÌ„substantiated into blood that seing that he had giveÌ„ thaÌ„ks ouer it long praied it might be thought of them that gratiaÌ„ quae est super vniuersa sanguinem suum instillâsse in illud poculum that is that grace that is aboue all things had poured his bloud into that cup by which meanes wheÌ„ he had made them in admiration of him desirous to drink thereof he giues it them with great deuotion solemnity of words so wonderfully bewitched many Indeed this fellow may very wel be allowed for the first auÌ„cient fouÌ„der of this point of doctrin for there being not any one point of popery wherein Antichrist hath more manifestly shewed him selfe coÌ„trary to Christ then in this as in truth there is not because for the establishing vse of this he is both spoiled of the true nature of a maÌ„ office of the only sufficieÌ„t priest of the new testament to offer himselfe once for all for the redemption of his church who can be fitter then this auncient enchauÌ„ter Marcus to be the first author and patrone hereof especially seing Irenaeus speaking of him in the eight chapter of the foresaid booke as it should seeme secretly directed by the spirit of prophesy saith thas he was verè praecursor Antichristi that is truely Antichrists fore-runner Yet how notably soeuer this Marcus caused many simple persons in his time to beleeue his transubstaÌ„tiation of wine into the bloud of Grace yet he was so baited detected confounded for his lewd and cosening dealing therein and in other points by Irenaeus Epiphanius and others that howsoeuer in the meane time Antichrist his successour was busie vnder Leo the 9. in a councell at Vercellis and after in the councell of Lateran vnder Nicholas the 2. about the yeare of the lord 1060. in bringing Berengarius to recantatioÌ„ to reuiue againe this doctrine of transubstantiation yet as their own friends confesse namely Tonstall in his booke of the sacrament of Christs body and bloud it could not nor was not decreed for a certaine and vniuersall doctrine before Innocent the thirds time in another councell at Lateran about the yeare of Christ 1215. before which couÌ„cel the Greeke Church had separated themselues from the Latine and therefore it being a point of Doctrine not receaued as Catholike before that diuision neuer since could it be receaued in the Greeke Church for any Catholike truth How can it then haue countenance of all Christian Regions and times Bertram Berengarius the Waldenses in sundry places by writing speaking opposed themselues against it as witnesseth Bertrams book of the sacrameÌ„t the condemnation of Berengarius opinion about it at Vercellis and the articles of the Waldenses Yea a little before and in this Pope Innocents time a certaine people about Iohn de Albines Tolossa called Albigenses and that in great mighty multitudes as the French Cronicles shew denied reall presence of Christ vnder or with the outward elements in this sacrament in somuch as great warres were raised to subdue them But of this matter also I haue spoken so much chapter eleuenth 17. that here I neede thereof say no more Now touching Images or Idols and the worshipping thereof I must needes confesse that for their dealing about them they may very well pretend both antiquity and vniuersality For it appeares in all stories and in the scriptures themselues that that way not onely all other nations but also euen the people of the Iewes themselues haue beene alwaies wonderfully giuen to pollute and defile themselues but withall it appeares that god in his word writteÌ„ against no abhominatioÌ„ hath cried out either more often or more vehemently then against this But amongst Christians the first that we reade of that worshipped the image of Iesus or any other was Marcellina a filthy companion of the phantasticall heretique Carpocrates but both in Epiphanius heresi 27. and in Augustine ad Quod vult deum we finde this both noted condemned amongst other detestable errours of the Carpocratians This Carpocrates liued in the beginning of the empire of Antoninus Pius Anicet then being Bishoppe of Rome about the yeare of the lord 109. And in Origens time who died as Spanhemensis saith in the yeare of Christ 261. hee in his seuenth book to Celsus noteth that then the Christians neither suffered images nor pillers to be worshipped Likewise in Arnobius aduersus gentes who florished about the 300. yeare after Christ it appeares that the geÌ„tils obiected that as a matter of disgrace against the ChristiaÌ„s that they neither had nor worshipped any such But so far of was it that the christiaÌ„s theÌ„ thought it any disgrace vnto theÌ„ that OrigeÌ„ in the place before quoted saith that the Iewes ChristiaÌ„s hearing the law Exo. 20. not only refuse images of god choosing rather to die then to make or worship any such adding this as a reasoÌ„ that god is inuisible without body And likewise Clemens Alexandrinus who florished 100. yeares before Origen in his exhortation to the heathen confesses willingly this their obiection to be true that Christians had no images that might be discerned by sence but onely by vnderstanding because to vse that deceitfull art saieth he was forbid theÌ„ Yea and that Christians and their teÌ„ples might continue still free froÌ„ them in Constantines time in a councel held in Spaine at Eliberis can 36. it was decreed thus It hath pleased vs to determine that no pictures should be suffered in churches least that which is worshipped or adored should be painted in walles Isid tom 1. coÌ„ci And therfore Epiphaniê° 55. yeares after this councell about the yeare of Christ 390. as it appeares in his Epistle to Iohn of IerusaleÌ„ finding in the entrance of the church at Anablatha in that Iohns dioces the image of a maÌ„ pictured on a cloth there haÌ„ging puld it downe tare it asuÌ„der writing to the foresaid Iohn about it though as he confessed it seemed vnto him that it was made for
and due confirmation of the other But I cannot be perswaded that such was your owne simplicity as once to imagine that the fift of Mathew Ephes 4 Esaie 62. or any other proofe that you vse to that ende did serue at all to proue your entraunce to haue bene as you saied I am therefore flat of this minde and so must euery man of any wit and discretion be vnlesse you will giue vs leaue to thinke that you had neither of both in thus reasoning that this was your Romish and Popish cunning herein finding your selfe vnable to proue any of these foure points that your entrance is by the ordinary waie that your Bishops and Priests are right Bishops and Priests that you haue had from the Apostles right succession and that also now and alwaies you haue beene in possession of the Catholick trueth you thought it good confidently as though their were no controuersie to be made with you about any of these to aduouch that you had all these to iustifie your maner of comming to your offices And so perswading your selfe that you should meete with such franke and liberall Readers as would easily vpon this your bolde begging graunt you all these foure for an almes taking them for giueÌ„ as sure as though you had them already in your beggers budget euen for and at the very first asking you goe on as you doe supposing that your Reader is already wonne to this to imagine that all and euery place of scripture that speakes of right Bishops and pastours and of their lawful calling succeeding one another froÌ„ age to age in the trueth must needes be vnderstoode of yours But with this conceit phantesy of yours howsoeuer you may preuaile with men of your owne humour and complexion that haue their wits benummed bluÌ„dered with the drunken enchaunted cup of the garish whoar of Babylon whiles you take this course you set your selfe but forth vpon a scaffolde to bee laught at and derided as one that hath neither sounde Religion nor common reason left him of those that are indeede wise sober and godly Seeing therefore you haue saied so much and proued so little well enough might I euen with the detection in this sort of your vanity leaue you as sufficiently answered for any thing you haue saied concerning this point But because I haue not taken in â—and onely so to answere you as might be sufficient to take awaie â—â—e power and force from any thing you haue set downe in this â—our discourse to winne any more to bee of your iudgement then â—ee alreadie but also so as by the grace of God may bee likely to â—ake your owne frendes ashamed of your dealing in their cause 〈◊〉 will both in this throughout your booke for the further beneâ—it of the Reader take the paines to follow you froÌ„ steppe to steppe â—how crooked soeuer your pathes be so disclose lay open before â—im not onely the vanity of your proceeding but also the vntrueth â—nd grosse impietie of your words and sayings Wherefore whereas to iustify your maner of comming by your â—ffices you first saie you come thereunto by the ordinarie way the Reader is to consider that through the ambiguttie of your speech you seeke wilfullie to abuse him For you could not bee so simple but you knewe and remembred well enough that as there is a lawfull ordinarie waie ordeined and allowed by God and therefore accordinglie practised in his Church whereby his Church officers should enter into their callings whereby if you could haue proued yours to haue come to theirs you had indeede iustifyed their entrance thereupon so haue there beene in tract of time through the boldnes of men to alter Gods ordinance and therein to preferre the way deuised by themselues before that which the Lord himselfe had prescribed many waies both inuented and practised which though they haue by custome and long continuance of time growen to be too ordinarie yet for all that they haue beene and yet are too bad by anie of which though in respect of one or other of them you maie truelie saie yours haue entred by the ordinarie waie yet you haue saied nothing to proue their maner of entraÌ„ce to be holie good and of God But to speake plainelie and yet no more then I can proue out of your owne Cronicles your verie Bishops of Rome of whose lawfull and ordinarie calling you vse to brag most and of whose lawfull entrance and calling if they bee such heades of the Church as you pretend the lawfull calling and authoritie of all other inferiour Church officers is deriued and depends for manie hundreth yeares a number of them haue so got to their Prelacies that vnlesse you account those in your sence to haue come to their places by the ordinarie waie that in compassing of them haue broken all good order both of God and man I wonder with what face you durst thus indefinitely generally say of all your Bishops and pastours that they haue bene called to their estate by the ordinary way For furious braules monstrous and long contentious force of armes and cruell bloudshed haue beene the ordinary waies whereby a great multitude of them haue entered as namely and for exaÌ„ple these Symachus Boniface the second Pelagius the first Boniface the third ConoÌ„ Sergius the first Zozimus Paul the first Constantine the second Eugenius the first Hadrian the second Formosus Leo Benedict Gelasius the second Honorius the second Innocent the second Gregorie the tenth Nicholas the third Clement the fifth Vrban the sixth and sundry others Bribery also hath beene the ordinary way whereby many of them haue clymed into that chaire as namely Iohn 13. Boniface the 7. Gregory the sixth Siluester the third and most of late daies NicromaÌ„cy art magicke and plaine barganing with the deuill for it haue beene ordinary waies also whereby a shamefull sort of them haue compasseâ— that place For from Syluester the second vnto Gregory the seuenth including them there being an eighteene or nineteene Popes your owne Cardinal Benno shewes that the greater number of theÌ„ so came to their roomes and since wee reade that Alexander the sixth got it the same way It appeares also in the saied Benno that the greater nuÌ„ber of the Popes from Syluester the second to Gregory the seuenth were poisoned or at least by violent means dispatched by such as for theÌ„selues their frends thought good so to make the waie readier thereuÌ„to for themselues or some others whom they fancied And to the same ende other authours write that very many of them beside haue in like maner from time to time since beene sodenly vnpoped that others the sooner might bee popt into their roomes Yea Genebrard a late writer and a great frend to the Roman Religion and Bishops in his fourth booke and tenth age in his Cronology by the plaine euideÌ„ce of the truth is inforced to confesse that from the yeare 884. to the yeare
must needs be good and lawfull and ours the plaine contrarie Howbeit if we examine this point throughly we shall find that they haue as weake helpe hence as from the other or from any thing else For whither they vnderstand by right succession succession without interruption in place person or office seuerally or iointly togither neither can their Bishops and Priests as they are now truelie saie they haue it nor yet if they could they being gone as they be from the soule and life of right Apostolicke succession namely the Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth are they euer the better And of the contrarie though it were neuer so true that we could not deduce vnto our present Bishops and Pastours downe from the Apostles or their times without interruptiō the line of succession in place person and office yet we being able to shew as wee are that we holde one and selfesame doctrine with them that would iustify our Church and ministers sufficientlie notwithstanding the want of the former This is quickly and easily sayed you will saie but these thinges cannot so readily bee proued I graunt to proue them will cost the more paines otherwise the proofe is readie and pregnant enough and that I doubt not but if with any indifferency that which I shall write to that ende bee marked shall ere it bee long appeare I say therefore first that the Roman Bishops and Priestes as they are now and haue beene a long time whatsoeuer they brag no not their verie Popes vnto whose right succession Stapleton and others trust most haue any right succession either to any Apostle or Apostolick man in place person or office For first they can neuer soundly proue the proofes out of the scripture are so strong to the contrary their proofes out of the stories so disagreeing and variable in all circumstances that Peter the Apostle whose successours their Popes claime to be and from whom al other Bishops and Priests amongst them haue their vocations and authority deriued was either euer at Rome or being there that hauing laied aside his Apostleship which was the greater and higher office he sate there as Bishop Secondly vnto this day they cannot agree of the order of succeeding one another betwixt Linus Cletus Clemēt Anaclet Vrspergensis in the life of Claudius hath notably at large set out both the difference of opinions in this matter and also the vncertainty of the trueth Thirdly none of any learning and reading can be so ignorant in the stories of the Bishops of Rome but he knowes that they haue not succeeded one another frō the Apostles to this day wtout interruptiō alwaies neither in place persō nor office For besids that sūdry times many Popes for some short time haue sate from Rome it is notoriously knowen that Clement the 5. about the yeare 1305. translated the Popes see from Rome into France to Auinion where it continued aboue 70. years And as for immediate orderly successiō of persons amongst them how is it possible truely certainly to define set downe that seing that see hath not onely stoode vacant daies weekes monethes and years somtimes 2. sometimes more but also there hath bene at once so often not only 2. but often 3. sometime more euery one striuing with his fauorers to be accoūted to be the right Pope And lastly by that which I haue said before of the nature of their offices of Popes Cardinalles Bishoppes Priestes their practise prouing daily my words therein to be most true how dare any mā that hath any feare of God once say or think that they in their offices haue any affinity with the Apostles or any Apostolicke man Light darknes are not more differing the one from the other then the offices of Apostles Euāgelists Prophets Pastours Doctours in the ancient primitiue Apostolick Church differeth from these offices of theirs Secondly whereas I sayed though yet they could which now you see they cannot truely say that they succeed the Apostles Apostolicke men in place person and office yet they were neuer the nearer my reasons thereof are these First I finde that wicked people wicked Priests in the scriptures often haue had this kinde of succession to pleade for themselues against the true Prophets and against Christ himselfe as you may see Ierem. 7. vers 4. cap. 8. vers 8. Iohn 8. v. 44. Vriah the Priest in King Ahaz time had this successiō frō Aaron and yet he to please that Idolatrous king set vp cōtrary to the commandement of the Lord an altar according to the patterne that the King had sent him of one that hee had seene at Damascus 2. King 16.10.11 The high Priests that withstoode alwaies Christ his doctrine and in the ende crucified him had this kinde of sucession yet none of these or their doings were any thing the more iustifiable for this Againe though Stapleton lib. 13. doctrinalium principiorū cōfesses that the Greekes haue beene scismatiques and heretiques this 500. yeares yet he all the sort of them of any reading know that not they only but also the Patriarches of Antioch and Alexandria and the Bishops of sundry other famous Churches in the world all which likewise they holde bee scismatiques and heretiques can doe make as great shew of this kinde of succession for the countenancing of their ministery and Churches as they themselues for they knowe that the Patriarch of Constantinople doeth deduce his locall and personall succession from Andrew the Apostle that the Patriarch of Antioch now sitting at Damascus doeth likewise his from Peter which he may doe more certainly then the Popes when they sate at Auinion could for it is euident Gal. 2. ver 11. euen by the scripture it selfe that Peter was at Antioch so is it not that he was at Rome In like maner they knowe that the Patriarch of Alexandria now holding his seate at Alcairum deriues his from the Euangelist Saint Marke And ignorant they are not that the Arrians preuailing as they did and in the ende hauing got the most seats of Bishops to be furnished with men of their dānable opinion that they for that time were able to holde this plea aswell as themselues and yet I am sure they will graūt that none of these were therfore or are therfore to be allowed iustified They will say I am sure for so I finde thē plainly to reply in their writings yea euen Iohn de Albine himselfe afterward Cap. 7. that though these all can and doe plead succession in place person and office that yet it cannot iustifie them because not onelie they haue helde some of them detestable heresies but presently also doe still Indeede I must needs confesse that I read that Macedonius Nestorius and Paulus Sergius abrupted the line of right successiō by their heresies at Constantinople that Paulus Samosatenus did the like at Antioch and that Dioscorus and Petrus Moggus did likewise at Alexanderia And
extraordinarily as he seeth need thereof is and may be such effectuall seede to beget childrē vnto God and so holesome foode to feede thē yea euen vntil they grow to a full age perfectiō in Christ Iesus that though their teachers cānot shew for the defence of their calling who alwaies successiuely in person and place haue gone before them yet euen this trueth of their doctrine doeth proue them and their people to be Apostolique Churches whereas though they could doe the other without this it were nothing And because my aduersary seemeth in this point otherwise to make great reckoning of the testimony of Irenaeus Tertullian and Augustine I will stande to their iudgement in this whither to succeede the Apostles in doctrine be not sufficient without the other locall and personall demonstrable succession and not this without that Irenaeus in his fourth booke and forty three Chapter teacheth vs onely to obey those Elders in the Church which from the Apostles with the succession of their Bishopricks haue receiued Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum patris that is the certaine gift of trueth according to the pleasure of the father for as for all other whatsoeuer they pretend for he excepteth nothing he there immediatly sheweth that absistunt a principali successione that is they are gone from the principall succession and therefore must be suspected And Tertullian in the very same place de praescriptionibus haereticorum quoted by Albine after in his 9. Chapter immediatly after the words there cited by him wherein he calleth for personall succession hath added these Cōfingant tale aliquid haeretici c. but let heretiques deuise some such thing for after blasphemy what is not lawfull for them saieth hee but though they doe faine some such thing yet it shall nothing preuaile thē For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity cōtrariety thereof wil pronoūce that it hath neither Apostle nor Apostolique mā to be the authour therof For saith he as the Apostles taught not amōgst themselues contrary things so neither did Apostolique men teach contrary things to those that the Apostles taught After this sort therefore let them be prouoked by those Churches which though they cannot produce either Apostle or Apostolique man to bee the founder thereof in that they were long after planted as dayly there bee tamen in eâdem fide conspirantes non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae yet they agreeing with thē in one faith are no lesse to be reputed Apostolicke Churches then they that were planted by the Apostles What can be plainer then this to shewe that though our Churches could not satisfie his request in pleading the former succession that yet if they can shewe this that they agree with the Apostles in doctrine that they therefore are far rather Apostolicke then they that can produce the former without this And though Augustine in his 165. epistle and also in his fourth Chapter against the Manichees epistle which they call their foundation remembred by Albine cap. 6. doe there seeme to make great reckoning of personall succession yet when he had shewed of what force that and some other reasons were with him he preferres trueth indeede warranted by the scriptures before them all Wherefore what I haue saied concerning the vanitie of their brag of personall and locall succession either to iustifie theirs or to disgrace our Church or ministrie is sufficientlie proued But all this labour will Albine say I might haue spared for he spake not simplie of succession but expressely of right succession of Bishops pastours and to shew what he ment thereby he expresly added the continuance of one Catholicke faith deriued from the Apostles to our daies without the interruption of it vniuersally at anie time Moreouer I confesse that sundry times after so forcible was the trueth in this point with him that in wordes he confesseth that personall and locall succession without continuance in this trueth is not the thing that he vrgeth and yet for all this this that I haue saied of this point is not needlesse For besides that fewe of his opinion will bee brought to confesse thus much this both in others and in himselfe in sundrie Chapters following maie be obserued that when this confession is made by anie of thē it is wroong frō them much against their wils for their shew of proofes run wholy for the magnifying of personall successiō to be the marke whereby true Churches and the ministers thereof maie vndoubtedly be discerned Againe if in this he spake as hee thinkes why doeth he make so much adoe about the personall and visible succession of Bishops and pastours and neuer ioines this issue with vs to trie out soundly and throughly whither they or we haue this Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth For herein onely lieth all the controuersie betwixt them and vs and this determined the question betwixt vs were quite ended let them once therefore but proue indeed that they are in possession of this soūd trueth and that alwaies downe from the Apostles they haue continued therein if we ioyne not streight with them and repent vs hartely of our departure from them accursed be we Yea if we cannot proue by cōparing their doctrine with that which wee are most sure the Apostles taught to be both diuerse from that and contrary vnto it vnderstanding by their doctrine as wee doe that which is proper to them and wherein we are against them let vs for euer leese our credit and cause Now for the decyding and determining of this great maine cōtrouersie wee appeale to the canonical scriptures which we knowe are most fit and sufficiēt iudges herein whereunto vnles they will deserue the name of lucifugae that is of shunners of the light which for the like cause Tertullian gaue the heretiques of his time de resurrect carnis they will be contented to bring their doctrine as to the touchstone Indeede in Tertullian and Iraeneus time the heretiques as it appeares in their workes for the triall of their opinions fled from this touchstone and when they were vrged herewith they behaued themselues the likest these our aduersaries that euer I saw For Iraeneus in his third booke and second Chapter testifieth thus of them cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum quasi non rectè habeant neque sint ex authoritate quia variè sunt dictae quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem that is when they are reproued by the scriptures then they are turned streight into an accusation of them as though they were not right nor were of authority both because they are so set downe as that variably or diuersly they may be taken and because by them the trueth cannot be found out by those that are ignoraunt of tradition This notwithstanding it appeareth both there and elsewhere that he calleth them to this triall
And so doeth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis Cap. 3. saying Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt vt de scripturis solis suas quaestiones fistant stare non possunt that is let those things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen that onely by the scriptures they may determine their questions and they cannot stand And nothing was more vsuall and familier with Augustine against the heretiques of his time then to call them for the triall of the question both whither he or they were of the true Church also whither of them had the trueth to this way of triall by the scriptures And therefore de vnitate ecclesiae Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men but by the diuine oracles saieth he Cap 3. again there also he further addeth pressing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe sunt libri dominici quoruÌ„ authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causaÌ„ nostraÌ„ that is there are certaine bookes of the Lord vnto the authority whereof we both consent there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our cause To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke and elswhere very often Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuersies betwixt theÌ„ vs we must needs tel theÌ„ that they are not desirous in earnest euer to haue it appeare which of vs haue the better cause but as men who know in their owne coÌ„science that their cause is bad they labour to maintaine the credit thereof as long as they can by cunning shifts delaies But yet let them assure themselues as long as they shun this trial how cuÌ„ningly colourably soeuer though simple fooles already besotted with superstition bewitched with popish enchantments vpon their bare worde stought bragges that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach may sometimes beleeue theÌ„ that yet withal those that haue any wisdoÌ„ at al by this means they leese quite both the credit of theÌ„selues their cause For faith being as it is not a wauering vncertaine conceyt opinioÌ„ of the thing beleeued but a most certain sure infallible perswasion of the trueth thereof how can any be assured that the doctrine that he beleeues is such as he may soundly firmely rest vpon for vndoubted trueth without euident grouÌ„d thereof out of the writeÌ„ word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures For theÌ„ce onely Peter dare warraÌ„t the sincere milke which caÌ„not deceiue the childreÌ„ of god to be fetched 1. Pet. 2 2. therefore that he would haue theÌ„ to desire as new borne babes doe milk that they may grow vp therby And as for the writings traditioÌ„s of meÌ„ beside hath not doth not experieÌ„ce daily teach that they may not nor caÌ„not chalenge the preeminence prerogatiue alwaies to be free from errour And euery one that is a ChristiaÌ„ hath learned that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof therein not to haue erred at al. Who therfore caÌ„ be so simple vnles the Lord in his iustice hath blinded him because hee would not see the trueth shyning about him that he should receiue that for the sound catholicke faith that he heares not first froÌ„ point to point proued vnto him so to bee out of this vndoubted certaine word of God the canonical scriptures what shew or colour of proofe soeuer otherwise be made thereof And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue yet neuer once going about in this his discourse thus to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce his cause religioÌ„ but as one loth to be brought to this trial he laboureth most earnestly to discourage al meÌ„ froÌ„ appealing vnto it yet almost in euery leafe braggeth and boasteth that both his Church his doctrine and al are souÌ„d catholick Wherin howsoeuer he pleased himselfe in that his vaine any indiffereÌ„t maÌ„ may see he hath rather bewraied the weaknes of his owne cause theÌ„ any way whatsoeuer he haue saied otherwise impaired the credit of ours But how vainly hee hath swet euen to the tyring of himselfe his reader about this point in many chapters That by the scriptures controuersies are not in the church to be tried determined wheÌ„ I come vnto that place I shal god willing shew more fully In the meane time Iohn de Albine to turne my speech to you I hauing thus examined your answere to our demand how you come to your prelacies and offices and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof such as that your calling or coÌ„ming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby theÌ„ the calling coÌ„ming to their offices amongst the ArriaÌ„s Greekes whoÌ„ you count heretiques and scismatiques caÌ„ doe because they caÌ„ could say as much and that as truly for theirs as you haue here said for yours let vs now proceed to the examinatioÌ„ of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you vrged as you thought stroÌ„gly to your purpose By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world c. by christ spokeÌ„ properly to his Apostles you would seem to proue that therfore right successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors in the Apostolique truth in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare shining like a light set on a table by that Eph. 4. Esa 62. with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely you would infer that not oÌ„ly alwaies vntil Christs body coÌ„e to ful perfectioÌ„ there should be doctors pastors in the Church to teach the truth which is the most that by those places caÌ„ be proued but also that they and their coÌ„gregatioÌ„s haue euer ben known visible therby doubtles meaning so visible as the rest of your side doe wheÌ„ to this end they alleage these or the like places as that froÌ„ time to time in al ages meÌ„ may be able to naÌ„e theÌ„ and their places WheruÌ„to I answere that you stretch these places and the words therin further theÌ„ their natiue sence wil bear For the first of these is properly to be vnderstood of Christs Apostles onely who in respect of their ministery other graces of the spirit that should be powred bestowed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to beutifie streÌ„gtheÌ„ their extraordinary ministery withall are there by Christ compâ—â—â—â—â— the light of the world to a lighted candle set vpon a candlesticke not put vnder a bushell lightning all in the house and to a city 〈◊〉 on a hil which could not bee bid all which afterward they in the â—â—ecution of their Apostleship and holy conuersation proued to be â—â—â—tles truely and iustly giuen them This was no prophesie as yoâ— would make it that their should be vntill the second comming 〈◊〉 Christ a visible and
of mans merites and praying to Saints c. And Franciscus Petrarcha florishing about that time in his ninteenth twentieth Epistle calleth the seate of the papacy the whoar of Babylon the temple of heresie and treachery and in such sort describeth it both at Rome and at Avinion where then the Pope sate that he as it ther seemeth coūted it the greatest euil that can befall a man to be made pope Iohannes de rupe scissâ about 10. yeares after in the yeare 1340 was so sore a rebuker of the abhominations of the cleargy that he was therefore imprisoned he also compared the pope to a bird richly clad with other birdes feathers yet so as that for the pride of that birde he prophecieth that the time would come when the other birdes would call for their feathers againe and so make him know himselfe Cōradus Hagar one of the city Herbipolis about this time preached 24 yeares as it appeareth in the Recordes of Otho bishop of that City that the masse was no propitiatory sacrifice either for the quicke or the dead And within three yeares after the booke called Paenitentiarius Asini was writen wherein the Pope is resembled to the Woulfe the Cleargy to the Foxe and the Laitie to the poore Asse In the yeare one thousand three hundred and fifty Gerrhardus Ridder wrote a book called Lachrima Ecclesiae wherein he vehemētly inueigheth against begging Friers Michael Chesenas before mentioned amongst other things preached that the pope was Antichrist and Rome Babylon Hee had many followers whereof I read some were burned as Iohannes de Castilone Franciscus de Arcatarâ and he himselfe beeing Prouincial of the Grey Friers was depriued and condemned in the yeare one thousād three hūdred twenty two or there abouts And in the time of Innocent the 6. 1353 I read that two Frāciscane Friers were burnt at Auinion whereof the one was one Iohn de Rochetalayda otherwise called Hayabolus witnes Premonstrat and Henry Herford Who as Henry of Herford writeth preached in the time of Pope Clement the 6 in the yeare 1345 that he was commanded by God to preach that Rome was Babylon and that the pope and his Cardinals were very Antichrist and beeing brought before the pope for it to his face he boldly did aduouch the same Brigit whom you your selues haue made a Saint about the yeare 1370 in her booke of Reuelations was a most bitter rebuker of the pope and his cleargy and so likewise was Katherina Senensis 2 yeares after as Antonine writeth in his 3 part of his story terming the pope a murderer of soules a spiller piller of the flocke of Christ saying that they were more abhominable thē Iewes more cruel thē Iudas more vniust thē Pilate worse then Lucifer himselfe And the former of thē plainly prophesied that their kingdō should be thrown downe as a milstōe into the deepe that the clergy had turned al Gods cōmandemēts into these two words Da pecuniā giue money Mathias Parisiēsis a Bohemiā about the year 1370 wrot a large book of Antichrist prouing him to be come that the pope was he the Locusts in the Apocalyps he saith are his hypocritical clergy About this very time Greg. the 11 sent a bul to the Arch-Bishop of Prage stirring him vp thereby to persecute one Melitzius and his followers who is charged in that bull to haue preached that the Pope was Antichrist and to haue had congregations following him As Brushius writeth in the yeare 1390. there were burned at Bringa 36. citizens of Moguntia for the doctrine of the Waldēses holding also that the Pope was Antichrists and Massens recordeth that there were burnt about the same time 140. for the same cause in the prouince of Narbon and the same authour testifieth that in the yeare 1210. 24 suffered at Paris and that the next yeare there were 400. burned for the like cause 80. beheaded Prince Armericus hanged and the Lady of the castle stoned to death Houeden also noteth that about these times there were great numbers put to death in France for this cause of Religion Trithemius writeth that Ecchardus a dominicke Frier was put to death at Hiddelberge in the yeare 1330 for withstanding the Popish doctrine There is an olde monument of processe against 44◠persons for the same cause in Pomerania Marchia and places there about in the yeare 1391. And certaine it is that if the recordes and statutes of all countries in these westerne partes should bee searched euen thereby would it appeare that the number of those that haue gainesaied the Pope his proceedings in the time of his greatest florishing and cruelty ' haue beene from time to time infinite how much greater then is it likely was the number of them that informer times when hee was not growen to that power to vexe the seruants of god as he hath beene for these last 300. or 400. yeares haue professed the trueth boldely against him Thus are we come to Iohn Wicklifes time who florished here in England about the yeare of the Lord 1372 and yet I haue for the auoiding of too too much tediousnes omitted the names of a number of famous men that haue also withstoode poperie and ioyned with vs in sundrypointes against them in those times that I haue run thorow as namely Alcuinus Archbishop of Canterburie directly with vs against them in the matter of reall presence Aelfricus Ioachim Abbot of Calabria Arnoldus Brixianus Almericus a learned Bishop in Innocents time the third iudged a◠heretique for teaching as we doe against images Beringaiius Reymundus Earle of Tolossa Lord Peter de Cogneriis Eudo Duke of Burgandie the Archbishop of Armah and infinite others I might also here againe haue remembred that with H. Mutius writeth of an 100 burnt in one day in Alsatia vnder Innocent the 3 in the yeare 1215 when Antichrist in the Lateran councell bringing in the new and monstrous article of Transubstantiation shewed himselfe to be euen growen to his highest degree of iniquity But to let these passe and to proceede Iohn Wicklife as it is famously knowen was with vs against you in the most and weightiest things betwixt you and vs in controuersie and therefore in your councell of Constance you condemned him and caused his dry and rotten bones to be taken vp againe and burned Whiles he liued he had many great learned men here in England that ioyned with him as namely Nicholas Herford Philip Repington Iohn Ashton and Laurence Redeman and so many followers had he and they and hee had such fauour and protection especially of the Duke of Lancaster that then was that though your prelates here in England vexed and molested them what they could yet they and their fauourers in short tyme grew to that strength and multitude that by the yeare 1422 Henry Chicheley then Archbishop of Canterbury certified the pope that they all could not be suppressed they were so many but by force of warre
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
shewing by al lineal succession how you came to it from Christ his Apostles but thereby also you haue quite ouerthrown our claime This is easily saied wel bragged of you but it is more then either you can or meane to proue O yes saie you we can as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob mount from step to step vntil in the top we come to those that first taught the Catholique faith in Tholossa Paris and Guienna as to S. Saturim Denice Martiall and Gratian and to the rest of the Saints It may be these were Saints you speake of and yet you haue not shewed vs that yea it may be also you can frō age to age euen frō that time to ours now name vs the persons that haue succeeded one another from those men you speake of but you shal neuer be able to proue that all these persons which haue succeeded haue continued in the sound Apostolique faith and so haue deriued it down frō the first to you that be the last which vnles you proue this climing vpō this ladder you talke of wil doe you smal pleasure But you are so confidently perswaded that the religion that you are in possession of now is the very same that was taught the Church of Christ in the beginning that you denounce him anathema be hee man or angell that preacheth against it Yet this is no proofe that it is the very same For you may be deceiued and if God would giue you grace to read and rightly to vnderstand the Scriptures sure I am that euen in thus saying you would finde that you haue as far as your authority reacheth cursed and excommunicated your own selues your whole Church So far of are we though it please you stil to cal our religion a new Gospel from being afraid to ioine with you in anathematizing them that preach any other Gospell then Christ and his Apostles preached at the first that withal our hearts we say Amen thereunto And therefore for all your supposed newnes of our religion we wish with all our hearts according to Iohns counsell 1. Epist 2. that that might abide which wee haue heard from the beginning We thinke Tertullian saieth most truely that cōmeth from the Lord is true that is first deliuered that is strange and false which is brought in after De praescrip aduersus haereticos Wherfore we say also most willingly with him in an other place in his 4 booke against Marcion Id est verius quod est prius c. That is truer that is former that is former that is from the beginning and that is from the beginning which is from the Apostles But then we conclude with him De praescriptione aduersus haereticos Vndè autem extranei inimici Apostolis haeretici nisi ex diuersitate doctrinae c. How are strangers and enemies to the Apostles knowen but by the diuersitie of doctrine which euery one of his owne minde hath brough forth and receiued against the Apostles therefore let deprauation of Scriptures and their exposition be accounted to bee where the diuersitie of doctrine is founde hitherto Tertullian and wee with him and therefore doe not charge vs any more with newnesse nor make your bragges anie more to deceiue the simple of antiquity vnlesse by the Scriptures wherein the simpliest knowe the Apostolique doctrine is contained indeede you can proue your doctrin to agree with theirs and ours to disagree For you may not thinke that you can cause them that haue any witte or discretion at al left them to beleeue that your doctrine is the same that was taught at the first by the Apostles because you can say so or because you can tel them their father grandfather and great grandfather tooke it so as long as they see you are loath to come to the triall with the learned whither it be so or no by Gods writen word Euen herein thundering out your Anathema though you would seeme therein stout and resolute in your religion yet if your words be wel marked it may euidently be perceiued that like a dastard you shunne the trial of your doctrine by the writen word For you say If any body come to teach vs any other doctrine then that which hath beene taught vs at the beginning I do not say writen in booke no take heed o◠that but printed in our harts let him be Anathema c. wherby you bewray your minde namely to be this that when it shal come in trial what that religiō is that was preached at the beginning you would not haue the Canonical books of the old and new Testament to determine the matter but that which was then writen in mens hearts whereby you meane your vnwriten traditions But I pray you how shal we know what was writen in mens hearts by the ministry of the Apostles better or more safely then by that which they wrote Especially seing as Irenaeus hath tolde vs that which they preached at the first after by the wil of God they committed vnto writing to be the foūdation piller of our faith in his 3 booke Chap. 1. As for your vnwriten word to speake most moderately you knowe the credit thereof is suspected and certaine it is it must agree with the word writen for God is one and selfesame both in writing and speaking or els worthily may it not be suspected onely but flatly also reiected as a false and counterfait word which but that you know it doeth not you would without any such correction or explanation of your meaning haue saied simply that you would haue him held Anathema that preacheth any other doctrine thē that which is writen in the books of the scripture But your owne conscience telling you that yours was another doctrin then had warrāt fro thēce before the curse should drop out of your pen you thought it wisdome least in your own knowledge you should haue cursed you selues to tel vs that you directed your sentence not against those that teach another doctrine then those bookes wil warrāt for of such you allow well enough or else you should disallowe your selues but against those that teach another doctrine from that which was writen in our harts so leauing to your selues liberty to make the poore people beleeue that that was whatsoeuer you would deuise O this is too too grosse paltry dealing in matters that so much concerne the souls of mē as this doth especially in this so great light that shineth now euery where amongst vs. As for your liues the liues of your pastors and great bishops though they be such as worthily you may be ashamed of yet if they had continued in the profession of the trueth therein we would haue held for al the other communion with them But seing their liues haue bene such a long time as there were neuer worse in Sodom nor any where els witnes your own stories Benno Cardin Platina Sabellicus Abbas Vsperg and others
not be against himselfe Ma. 12. what were they to do els but according to that the God gaue theÌ„ and the places they had in vniuersities in the church to proceede to call the people yet froÌ„ those errors to the truth When fire shal take hold of a city or the enimy scale the wal in the night if the least burgesse shall giue an alaruÌ„ yea if it be but a straÌ„ger the watchmaÌ„ sleeping that should giue warning no maÌ„ would staÌ„d trifling in demanding by what title he did it but streight he will run to the water and to the wals and laie to his hands to preueÌ„t the mischiefe thanke him that gaue the warning And yet wheÌ„ the meÌ„ we speake of giue notice of a greater danger though it be as necessary to listen vnto them to be warned by them as the saluation of mens soules is yet they caÌ„not finde this wisdome and thankfulnes in men It should seeme by your standing thus precisely vpon the necessity of visible succession ordinary impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds in theÌ„ the god shal send to teach men or els they may not be heard that either you haue not red or els that you greatly disseÌ„ble your knowlege that God hath vsed the ministry of diuers persoÌ„s that haue wanted those to coÌ„uert nations to lay the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of churches to doe very much good For Ruffinus in his Eccl. Hist 1. booke and c. 10. Theodoret in his 1. book c. 23. report that a captiue maiden did first kindle the light of the Gospell amongst the IberiaÌ„s who being the meanes first to coÌ„uert the Queene the Queene coÌ„uerted the King he wtout any orders as you call them taught his people the Christian faith so begaÌ„ the church there It is also writeÌ„ by Ruff. lib. 1â— c. 9. by Theodoret in the 22. c. of his saied booke by Nicep in his 8. book c. 35 that AEdesius and Frumentius brought thither being â—â—yes by Meropius a philosoper and there taken and preserued aliue when he and the rest of his company were slain growing after into good credit and authority there were the first means of the sowing of the seede of the Gospell amongst the Barbarians in the further India to the profession and exercises whereof especially Frumentius and that not onely after that by Athanasius he was ordained there bishop but before euer by any he was ordeined either minister or bishop was a notable effectuall meanes both to excite marchantes that came thither and to drawe the people of that countrey it selfe Moreouer Eusebius in his ecclesiastical history reporteth in his sixte booke and 19. Chapter that Origen taught publikely before he had ordination certaine bishops being present which when Demetrius Alexandrinus obiected as a fault to Alexander bishop of Hierusalem and to Theoclistus bishop of Caesarea they defended themselues by alleadging diuers such famous examples as namely of Euelpis Paulinus and Theodorus which in like sort had preached without the ordinary ordination Yea read Nicephorus 2 booke and 25. Chapter and he will tell you that vnder Constantius Antonie the heremite taught at Alexandria and that vnder Valens at Antioch Aphraatis Flauianus Iulianus being then but monkes who in those dayes were not reckoned amongst Clarkes at all for vnto Gregories time they were not accounted Clarkes did publickely preach and confute heretiques And yet these examples I alleadge not that I would be authour to anie when an ordinarie calling may be had to despise that and to take vpon them that function of the Ministrie without that lawfull ordinary calling for that were to disturbe the peace of the Church and to open a gap to much disorder and inconuenience but to this end to make it appear that the Church of God in former ancient times hath not so precisely and curiously stood vpon these points of visible succession and ordination for the iustifying of ones preaching the Gospel at al times and in all places as you doe For doubtles there haue beene times and yet may be as after that great apostasie spoken of 2. Thes 2. in other great ruines of the Church when it hath and may please the Lord to call men extraordinarily to this worke without either immediate locall or personall succession going before who as long as they preach but the trueth and otherwise the times be so corrupt that of them that haue authority ordinarily to call men to that busines such rather should be shut out generally then let into the ministrie are to be receiued heard and listened vnto as such whom the Lord of his mercy hath extraordinarily called himselfe The XIIII Chapter CAluin doeth alleadge to vs that the Apostles doe saie that no bodie ought to take vpon him the honour of the high priesthoode except he be called to it as Aaron was meaning by that to conclude that of our owne authority we haue vsurped the dignitie of Priesthood a And â—et to no purpose We haue answered him at large of our vocation by the succession of Pastours ioined with the imposition of handes I doe demande of him or of his if they can make any true answere to the like obiection You doe laie to our charge the all liues of our Popes and Bishops and the naughtinesse that you pretend to finde in our Preachers but all those inuectiues serue to no other purpose but to shew how you keepe b Nay you shall haue the bell both for that for prophane iering scoffing a learned schoole of railing the which preheminence we doe yeeld to you without any debate or processe for ye maie attribute that vnto your selues as your owne by right insteede of the imposition of hands which ye want But in one thing to my iudgment you are greatlie ouerseene and that is this c When you obserue this lawe your selues we wil learn of you Why doe ye not fill both sides of your booke in the one you set forth at large without omitting anie point of their ill doings al the naughtie lives of our Pastours and Bishops but the other sides of the leaues are emptie you should haue writen on them the holie liues of your Ministers succeeding one after an other this thousand and fiue hundred yeares When the Popes Bonifacius Gregorius did gouerne ill their Seats at Rome d I haue sufficiently answered this cap. 4. which were the good and holie ministers that did their duetie at Geneua When our Doctours did preach against God in times past in what part or vnder what sign were your Ministers lodged that did then preach the pure word of the Lord e Reasoned like your selues as though the Apostles neuer lawfully hid themselues from the fury of the persecuters if they did hide themselues they did not folow the pure word of the Lord the which you say is necessarie to know the true faithful beleeuers For Christ doeth saie Mat. 10. that hee that shal deny him before men him
your doctrine herein then he doth And you know that he lyued 400. yeares after Christ and more In lyke sort your doctrine of iustyficatiō in part by mans owne merits and satisfactions howsoeuer of ancient tyme the scribes and pharises troubled the Apostolicke Churches with the lyke doctrine yet was it a doctrine abhorred of the Church of Christ as blasphemous against the omnisufficient merits satisfaction of Christ Iesus our Lord sauiour ours of iustification freely and fully soly and wholy by fayth onely in Christ allowed and receiued as sound trueth and doctrine in that poynt not onely in the Apostles tymes as it appears Ro. 3. Gal. 2. 5. but also for many 100. years after euen vnto very late dayes For proofe wherof let any man read Origē vpon the 3. 6. of the Romās Ambrose vpon the 3 of the Romās also Hierom in his booke against the Pelagiās vpon the 4 to the Romās vpon the first and 2. to the Gala. Aug. de fide operibus ca. 22. vpon the 88 Psa and in his 22 Chap. of his Manuell and Hilary in his 8 Canon vpon Mathew See also Basils 51. hom de humilitate Paulinus 58. Epistle to Saint August amongst Augustines Epistles Chrysostome vpon the third to the Romans Theodoret vpon the same Chapter Gregory Nazianzens twenty two oration and Ruffinus his exposition of the Creed you shal not onely finde al these fathers in al these places as flatly to teach free ful iustificatiō saluatiō to cōe by faith in Christ alone wtout our works at al cōcurring as any helping cause therunto as any of vs now doe but also further I can doe assure you that who so wil vouchsafe to take the paines to read Bernards 23 61 and 62 Sermons of the Canticles his Sermon the 15 of the Psalme Qui habitat and his seuenty seuen Epistle he shal finde that he though he were aboue 1100 years after Christ was of the same minde For in these places he plainly confesses that he for his saluation rested onely vpon the merits of Christ and not vpon his owne at all counting mans merite to bee nothing else but to trust onely in Christ and in Gods mercy withall plainly testifiyng that he hoped to haue his solâ fide by faith onely in Christ Iesus Yea your owne Thomas Aquine confessed with vs that we are iustified by fayth instrumentally and that no vertue inherent in vs can be of the forme or essence of our iustificatiō Rom. 4 Ephesians 2 and in sundry other places of his commentaries vpon Pauls Epistles And Sadolet vpon the Epistle to the Romans acknowledged doubtles forced therunto by the power of this trueth that Abraham attulit tantùm fidem non sua opera that Abraham brought onely faith not his owne works againe he saieth quātum quisque affert de suâ iustitiâ tantum detrahit de diuinâ beneficentiâ that is how much in this respect a man bringeth of his owne righteousnesse so much he pulleth from Gods bountifulnesse How far likewise the strength of this trueth conquered your great Champion Piggius with griefe Ruard Tapper and others of your side haue noted writē against him for it For in the controuersie of iustificatiō fol. 61. he in playn tearms with vs cōfesses si formaliter propriè loquamur nec fide nec charitate nostrâ iustificamur'sed vnâ Dei in Christo iustitiâ vnâ Christi nobis cōmunicatâ iustitia that is if we speak formally properly we are iustified neither by faith nor by our charity but by the only righteousnes of God in Christ by the onely righteousnes of Christ cōmunicated vnto vs. And hauing with vs before in the controuersie proued confessed fol. 46. y al men euen the most righteous if they should be iudged of God or esteemed according to their own righteousnes by merit and desert they were to be accursed and condemned not onely for the imperfection of our best righteousnes but also for playne vnrighteousnes to be foūd in the best he proceeds concluds fol. 47. that our righteousnes hope of saluatiō with God cōsisteth in the free forgiuenes of our sins in Christ in that the perfect righteousnes of Christ is imputed vnto vs hauing cōmuniō with him And to make his meaning more plain that he meaneth not by the righteousnes of God or Christ any inherēt righteousnes of ours wrought in vs that beleeue by the spirit of Christ as our late Iesuites doe but the righteousnes that was is inherent in Christ he saieth that the righteousnes of Christ wherof he would be vnderstood in this case to speak is his obediēce whereby he fulfilled his fathers wil in al things and he expounds or declares the nature of the faith wherof the Apostle speaketh Rom. 3. saying We are iustified freely by his grace by the redemptiō that is in Christ Iesus whō he hath appointed to be our attonement maker by his bloud to bee fiduciā cōfidentiā in sanguine eius fol. 48. to be a trust and confidence in his bloud thereby alone to be saued so stil aduouching fol. 49. his onely righteousnes imputed vnto vs to be the whereby we shal stand be accoūted righteous before God and him therefore to be vnicū solidū the alone soūd foūdatiō of our saluation To conclude therefore this poynt I say with Iunilius Aphricanus who liued Anno. 440. lib. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 si quis in Christū crediderit remissis peccatis potest per solam fidem seruari that is if any beleeue in Christ his sinnes being forgiuen him he may by fayth alone be saued and with Augustine vpon the 31. Psalm si vis esse alienus a gratia iacta merita tua if thou wilt be voide of grace thē boast of thy merits Your doctrine of auricular confessiō of praying to Saints for the dead I haue at large in my answere to your thirty seuen Chapter shewed to be but new doctrines and of far later stampe then you pretend and in like maner elsewhere I haue shewed diuers other points of your religion to be in this aunswere of mine And I thinke you are not ignoraunt that that worthy bishop bishop Iewel here in England bishop of Salisbury hath most cōfidently protested that for 600. years after Christ you haue no sound groūd for 25. articles whereof the most of them are about your masse whereof you glory most which protestation or chalenge of his he hath hitherto defended sufficiently against all your obiections to the contrary And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge to the contrary so much of your religion as we count it popish for is and will proue when you haue done what you can but as the tares Math. 13 that were by Sathan subtly and secretly sowen in the Lords field long after the good seed was sowen And yet we labouring onely according to our callinges and that knowledge that God hath giuen vs
accounted amongst vs a soūd preacher of the gospell hath either sayed that thus hee ought to be receaued to preach the gospell or hath attempted so to doe For it is generally held and receiued of al the Churches that professe the gospell and so lykewise is their vniforme practise that none be suffered to take vpō them to preach the gospel vnlesse it be knowen and sufficiently appeare that by the ordinary calling of some according to the order of the Church where hee is ordered he be sufficiently authorished so to doe And wel knowen it is that there is no Church that professes the Gospel indeed but the order thereof is that none meddle in the ministry therein without commissiō as it pleaseth you to speake either from some conueniēt number of pastours or from some bishop or from both by the order of that church appointed to looke to and to take care of that busines As for the Anabaptists a captaine whereof you named in the former Chapter we know that in their fantastical spirit they both hold and practise as here you charge vs but therin and therfore we dislike condemne them as much as you And you know we renounce communion with them we coūt them heretickes therfore sundry of vs purposely haue writ large and vehement bookes against them you doe vs therfore great wrong to charge vs with that which is their fault which you cānot proue to be ours But you wil say I am sure for in your former Chap. you seeme to deriue Mūcer the Anabaptist his petigree frō Luther that we may worthely so be charged for they are such as spring of and from vs. But herein againe you offer vs as great wrong as the seruants of the good seeds man that sowed only good seed in his field should haue done him if they had saied that the tares that came vp therewith in the same field had beene there sowed by him because when Christ his Apostles and faithfull ministers had first preached the gospel there were foūd in the same age springing vp with the same amongst the professours therof Ebionites Cerinthians Nicolaitans Simonists and sundry other fantastical heretickes as Hymeneus Philetus Hermogines and Phygetus was it any reason therefore that Christ or any of his faithfull ministers or that the gospel it selfe should be charged with their fond cōceits And yet as absurd sencelesse as this kinde of dealing were it is both here with you oft in this your booke vsuall is it with all of your spirit this now for want of better matter against vs by this means with the simple people to labour the discredit and disgrace both of vs our churches and religion But you content not your selfe with falsely charging vs to say that we ought to be receiued to preach the gospel extraordinarily but also you lay to our charge that we seeke still to defend an ill cause and an extraordinary commission This you onely say as your maner is but neither proofe nor shadow of proofe you bring neither indeede can you For our cause is the very trueth and our commission is but that ordinary commission of teaching and confirming the same vnto men that Christ hath left by his owne ordināce to all his faithfull ministers vnto the worlds ende And for proofe hereof we appeale indeede to the holy scriptures which in this case euen for the reason by you alleadged wee are not ashamed to confesse to be the sound touchstone of trueth and to be preferred in credit before miracles Yet you some thing amplifie and adde vnto our speech in that you say we affirme that the scriptures as they are alleadged by vs alone ought to bee of more credit then all the miracles wrought by the Apostles Well this our reason to iustifie our cause and commission you say is a notable way to deceaue the simple and vnlearned I wonder that you were not ashamed and affraied so to write For you cannot be ignorant that to confute errour to proue trueth to exhort to vertue and to dehort from vice Christ and his Apostles and so from time to time the ancient fathers what aduersaries soeuer they had to deale withal vsed alwaies to flie to this touchstone and for the most certaine concluding of their purpose did alleadge scripture but your shift will be that these alleadged the scripture rightly which you speake not of and we alleadge the scripture corruptly and in a wrong sense therefore you would haue your words in all this your discourse against our alleadging of scripture to bee taken as writen not simply against alleadging of scripture but against alleadging it as we doe Then I answer that that you should haue proued that we alleadge the scripture in a wrong sense but this you haue not once gone about only you proue that bare alleadging of scripture cannot nor may not so countenance our cause as we pretēd for that sundry heretickes haue countenanced their heresies by alleadging scripture and that often very plentifully About this you spend sundry Chapters and withall to shew your selfe to be able if you list to be a cunning in wresting of the scriptures as any of the heretickes you mention all which is to no purpose vnles withall you had proued which you shall neuer be able to doe that we alleadging them doe alleadge them so likewise For we are not so simple or ignorāt that we know not that the scripture hath beene and may be misalleadged as you write and therefore we neuer go about to perswade the people that they must and ought to beleeue vs for our bare alleadging of scripture but for that by the sound rules of interpreting of them we proue forcibly and inuincibly vnto their consciences that we alleadge them according to their true and natiue meaning We call vpon them with Christ to search the scriptures themselues Iohn 5 39. and with Paul we exhort them so to trauaile therein as that they may haue the worde of God dwell euen in themselues plentifully in all wisedome Coloss 3.16 that so according to the commended example of the noble men of Baerea Act. 17.11 and the doctrine of S. Iohn they may trie the spirits of them that would seeme to teach them a right before they beleeue them 1. Iohn 4.15 we confesse gladly with Peter 2. Epist cap. 1. 20. 21. that no prophesie nor part of the scripture is of any priuate interpretation and all such interpretations we count and iudge priuate and humane whosoeuer gyues or allowes them that are not indeede soundly agreeing with the minde of the authour of the scripture the holy Ghost And therefore we hold and teach for asmuch as the naturall man vnderstandeth not the thinges of the spirit of God 1. Cor. 1.15 that no man in alleadging and citing of the scripture◠is to trust to his owne wisedome or learning but according to the counsell of S. Iames finding himselfe in this case to lacke wisedome we exhort all men
is no reason in the world why you should count from that yeare for neither Daniels words will beare it neither yet the true account of the time from thence to Christs death for that was about the yeare of the world 3354 and he suffâ—ed Anno. 3996. as Functius calculateth Neither is there any mention in Dan of 72. weekes but of 70 of numbers whereinto he deuideth that Beside it seemeth that your Arithmetique or wits were very sleÌ„der to reckon 72. weekeâ— that is so maâ—y times 7. years to be iust fiue hundred when as if you account againe you shall finde that your number is not so iust by 4. as you would seene for 72. times 7. makes 504. A shaâ—efull learned man sure you haue shewed your selfe here but he did assigne the very time that is to say by the seuenty two weekes counting from the fourth yeare of the raigne of Zedechias vntil the time that our Sauiour was naâ—â—ed vpon the Crosse the which time was iust 5. huÌ„dred years TheÌ„ seeing that Christ came at the verie prescribed time he might well haue saied vnto the Iewes that the Scriptures did beare witnes of him But yet to say the trueth if he had done no other but this he had not fully approued his vocation to condemne their incredulity For they might haue saied vnto him we know wel that by the saying of the olde prophetes the Messias should come of the line of Iacob about this time forasmuch as the scepter of this kingdome is taken froÌ„ the line of Iuda to be deliuered vnto Herod But what though is this a good consequence a But now that tâ—is point is sufficiently confirmed already so also al the doctrine of the gospel by him and his Apostles therefore now to refuse to beleeue the ordinarie ministers of the Church vnles they proue the same againe by miracles which is your deaâ—ing with vs is an euident signe of vnbeliefe the Messiaâ— ought to coÌ„e about this time therefore it is I No no shew vs your coÌ„mission let vs see some signes how we shal know it for if we should receiue you as our king it may be that some other would come and craue the like saying that we were abused Our Sauiour Christ sore fearing this obiection toâ—ke another witnes with him besides the scripture I meane his miracles The workes that I doe saieth * John 5. Christ in the name of my father beare witnesse of me The like proofe is made wheÌ„ S. Ioh. * Mat. 11. Baptist sent his disciples to our Sauiour to haue him teach the true beliefe that they should haue in him this question was put to him art thou he that should come or ought we to attend for some other Go your waies saied Christ and tel Iohn what yee haue heard and seene The blinde receiue their sight the lame doe walke vpright the dumbe speake the deafe heare the lepers are cured the dead are raised againe and the poore are preached vnto the which is as much to say as tel Iohn that I am the true Messias that he ought to attend â—â— other I doe verifie my doctrine both by the Scripture and by Miracles For first Esay doeth write that when the Messias should come he should doe the Miracles aboue mentioned Then seeing that I haue done theÌ„ in your presence it foloweth that I am he that should come Thus you see Sirs that both the b And by the same scriptures and by the same Miracles we iustifie our vocatioÌ„ and religion what wil you haue more Scripture and Miracles were necessarie for the confirmation of the comming of Christ among the Iewes who were neuer harder of beleife then we are according to your opinion and therefore blame vs not if we sende you packing like Coggers of the Scriptures c But they doe 2. Thess 2. Apoc 14. vers 8.6 and 7. the which doe neither beare witnes of your comming nor yet doe any miracles the which two thinges and more are necessary to make vs beleeue your reformed Gospell The XXX Chapter THe drift of this Chapter is to proue that Christ did not onely warraÌ„t his vocatioÌ„ doctrine by the testimonies of the Scriptures but also by miracles which I grant you proue sufficiently Wherupon you would coÌ„clude that we accouÌ„ting you as hard of beleife as euer were the Iewes therefore we should proue our calling and religion vnto you by both whereas if it be true that you say we can doe neither and so are to bee sent packing like coggers onely of the Scriptures Whither the Scriptures giue testimony vnto our religion or no. I referre to the reader to iudge by that which I haue writen already by that we haue writen from time to time in our bookes made in the defence of our religion And concerning our vocation and calling I trust I haue sufficiently confirmed that by theÌ„ also in that I haue shewed our calling to be conformable to the calling of true Pastors in the Apostles time But if further you require a more speciall testimony from thence of our comming by our calling I sende you now to 2. Thess 2.8 and Reuel 14.6 c. where it is prophecied that God would towards the later end send his messeÌ„gers againe to consume Antichrist and by preaching the euerlasting Gospel to ouerthrow Babylon And as touching miracles you haue bene answered sufficiently already but that you complaine not that we refuse to answere you as long as you can obiect any thing to this now alleadged I say that you must vnderstand that it was necessary for Christ to confirme his calling by miracles because it is true as you alleage out of Esay that it was prophecied that the Messias should worke miracles when he came so also it was necessary once to establish and confirme the particular doctrine of his person the ceasing of the ceremonies of Moses law and other such new strange things as the comming of the Messias brought with it both to Iew and Gentile which reasons you cannot shew why we should work miracles now to confirme our vocation or religion by to you For neither was it prophecied that the ministers of Christ should bring Antichrist to consumption or the whore of Babylon to her fall by working of miracles but as you haue heard by the spirit of Gods mouth breathing in his euerlasting gospell the force whereof in our ministry you perceiue daily to be such that it is eueÌ„ a miracle and wonder vnto you to see in how short time it hath preuailed and preuaileth still against your kingdome doe you what you can to let it neither neede those things so notably once confirmed by Christ and his Apostles which are the onely things that wee teach to be for your sakes confirmed againe though you be neuer so harde hearted The word writeÌ„ and the miracles therin recorded already must serue the turne to conuert you to our religion therein taught and
afterwardes in conclusion finally may so fall awaie that he become the childe of the Deuill and this is the second thing that I though good to admonish you and your reader of For this is also a most dangerous errour shaking al the certaine grouÌ„ds of our faith and therefore to our comforte it is plainely taught vs contrarie to this in the Scripture that the gifts and graces of God whereby are meant the giftes of regeneration are without repentance Rom. 11.29 and therefore whom Christ loueth once as his owne as doubtlesse he doeth all them that are new borne once indeede Iohn tels vs he loues to the ende Iohn 13.1 And Paul vpon this ground that he knew with whom God once went so farre as towardes them to shew his power and mercy in regenerating of them that he would neuer finallie forsake them but perfect in theÌ„ that good worke of his assures the Philippians that he that had begunne that good worke in them would performe it vntill the day of Iesus Christ cap. 1.6 And yet I doe not deny but such maie haue their falles and that in such sort that to their owne sence feeling and in the opinions of others they haue quite fallen from grace and all the good gifts of regeneration but yet if before they were not sacramentally onely but really in trueth new borne and clensed from their sinnes in Christ the spirit and graces of God in them were but in this case as the sunne hid from our eies by thicke cloudes and as fire raked vp in the ashes which God will cause to shine againe and to growe to a fire in them when hee in his good time hath caused the cloudes to vanish and hath remooued the ashes This you can holde to bee true in Peter notwithstanding his fall because Christ praied that his faith should not faile Luk. 22. why should you not then vpon Christes praier made generally for all his elect that his heauenly father would keepe them and that from euill Ioh. 17.15 conceiue the like of all those whoÌ„ God hath once sealed indeede with the peculiar seale of regeneration proper onely to his elect But it seemes you thinke you haue ground enough for this your opinion in that you see many that haue seemed to stand finally to fal and that you finde the promisses run vpon this condition if we perseuere vnto the end whereunto I answere that in the former you may be deceiued two waies either in taking them to haue stood indeede which yet neuer came vnto it or in condeÌ„ning them as finally to haue fallen when as it may be otherwise and as for the second I say that as it is certaine that the promisses runne vpon that condition so the Lord will giue all those grace to performe that conditioÌ„ that be once thus sealed to be his For nothing shal separate theÌ„ from the loue of God in Christ Iesus Rom. 8. such are kept by the power of god through faith vnto saluatioÌ„ 1. Pe. 1.5 You must therefore thirdly be admonished that indeede you doe misunderstaÌ„d Iohn the other testimonies to fortifie Iohns doctrin as daÌ„gerously as euer did IouiniaÌ„ Nouatus or any other if you take them so to be vnderstoode as it seemeth you doe that by these places wee are taught that none in any actuall sinne and hauing a minde to doe euill is in that meane while the childe of God but of the Deuill If this were true doctrine seeing it is writen that no man liueth sinneth not 1. King 8. no man can say his hart is cleane Pro. 20. but euen when we are at the best we must needs confesse that those good things that we would do we do not those euil thiÌ„gs that we would leaue vndone we doe Ro. 7. that if we say we haue no sin we deceiue our selues there is no truth in vs 1. Ioh. 1. therfore it is certaine that ther was neuer child of God yet but ofteÌ„ times he hath had a mind to doe euill and bene sometime in actuall sinne I say these thinges being most true because both Scripture and experience teach them so to be if this doctrine of yours be true also then so often as there is a purpose and performance of any actuall sinne and as long as that is found in man so often and so long he is the childe of the Deuill and not of God If this be thus if you knewe how farre actuall sinne streatcheth and weighed without dissembling how prone the best men are to fall I am fully perswaded there is none of you all that a whole day togither can haue assurance that you are any other but the children of the Deuill For if the Lorde should straitely marke what is done amisse and enter into iudgement with his seruants no man could for one daies space in trueth cleare himselfe of all actuall sinne committed either in word deede or thought by omitting good things commanded or doing ill things forbidden If in stead of saying in the meane while you had only saied therein and in that respect he is not the childe of God your speech might haue beene borne withall For indeed in the new borne though there be a new man yet as long as they liue they shall finde some reliques of the olde man remaâ—ning and so a law in their members rebelling against the law of the spirit Rom. 7. Gal. 5. by meanes wherof it commeth to passe that though sinne raigne not in their mortall bodies and they neuer commit sinne vnto death and transgresse with the whole man as the carnall men doe yet in respect of this old man that is left sinne dwelleth in them as a tyrant and getteth them now and then to doe him some seruice though not with the consent and liking of the new but it striuing against the same as it also euidently appeareth in the two foresaied Chapters Rom. 7. Gal. 5. wherein in which respect they may be saied not to be the children of God but in the meane while in that by the inner man these things that are done through the tyranny of the old man are not consented vnto but misliked striuen against by them therefore with Paul they comfort theÌ„selues say now if I doe that which I wold not it is no more I that do it but the sin that dwelleth in me RoÌ„ 7. with Iohn after that through the beholding of this their infirmity they haue coÌ„fessed that if they should say they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there were no truth in theÌ„ they raise vp theÌ„selues againe saying if we acknowledge our sins he is faithful iust to forgiue vs our sin to clense vs from all vnrighteousnes 1. Ioh. 1. and so remaine still euen whiles they finde these battailes foiles risings againe in themselues the children of God For S. Iohn is not to be vnderstood to deny simply that the new borne sin but to deny that they
sinne vnto death or with their full and whole power and wil as they doe which are vnregenerated Otherwise he were contrarie vnto himselfe in that he coÌ„fesseth speaking of himselfe such as he was theÌ„ as you haue heard that if they saied they had no sin they deceiued theÌ„selues there was no trueth in theÌ„ Neither is there any thing in any of the rest of the places by you alleaged that coÌ„trarieth this my interpretation of Iohn or coÌ„firmeth yours For meÌ„ in the time wheÌ„ sinne is but thus dwelling in them so through their infirmity now then though against the wil of the spirit dursting from them yet euen theÌ„ retaine the spirit of God in theÌ„ which sheweth it selfe both in procuâ—ing that it was not committed but as it were with a piece of the wil in after so taking vp the trespasser for so doing inwardly in his conscience that he groweth to indignatioÌ„ with himselfe for yeelding so far so to a more carefulnes to take heed of sin afterwards to a firmer purpose power to excercise himselfe in good works euery day dying more more vnto sin liuing more more vnto righteousnes wherupon it commeth to passe that such are not no not euen in this time of their infirmity answerable to the description of the wise man wherwith he setteth them forth that are not capable of the good spirit of God Sap. 1. such doe yet bring forth the works of AbrahaÌ„ in their inner man at al time outwardly also vpon the recouery from the foile of the flesh from time to time But sin grace cannot dwel togither you say herein you strengthen your selfe with Ioh. 8 Sap. 1 Matth. 6.1 Cor. 10. it is true sin with his head vncrushed in his ful power streÌ„gth caÌ„not dwel in the same maÌ„ in whoÌ„ is the spirit of regeneratioÌ„ at one the selfesame time but as I haue said it may doeth or else it neuer continueth a day to an end in any one maÌ„ except the maÌ„ Christ For al else daily offeÌ„d sin but yet theÌ„ sin weakened not in his full strength dwelleth in the man in respect of the flesh that is in respect of so much of him as is not fully brought in subiection to the spirit the spirit dwelleth in him euery day preuailing more and more in respect of the other part which is renewed according to the wil of the spirit and therefore called the new man This point of diuinity though most true and certaine by these your speeches it seemeth you are not acquainted wtall but yet it seemeth strange that you which brag so much of the spirit to direct your Popes your couÌ„cels Church should coÌ„sidering the manifold great sins errors they haue fallen into set downe this doctrine that sin the spirit of God cannot dwel togither As for your place Wisdo 1 it is rightly to be vnderstood of such as are hypocrites and dissemblers and dwell in foolish and wilfull ignorance for from such the spirit of discipline flyeth but such are not the children of God that I haue described to haue in them both the new man and the old spirit flesh therefore such may as I haue saied be capable of Gods spirit and such may be the true seruants of God and doe the workes of Abraham and bee partakers of the table of the Lorde as long as sinne raigneth not in their mortall bodies howsoeuer sometimes it shew it selfe to dwell in them And this you must be driuen to confesse or else you preach the right doctrine of desperation to your selfe and all that heare you But to passe froÌ„ these pointes which I thought good thus to admonish the reader and your selfe of let vs returne to your conclusion of this Chapter wherein after you haue shewed vs that to finde your Religion to be a good tree we must not looke vpoÌ„ your rotten fruit because your Religion condemneth such fruit but vpon your doctours and great personages that haue died throughout the world in your faith and left notable monuments of hospitalls colledges and such like works behinde theÌ„ you charge vs not onely that our Religion cannot shew the like but that rather wee haue spoiled and defaced your monumeÌ„ts as your Abbies and such like and thinke to make ameÌ„ds with giuing some little now to the poore Whereunto briefly my answere is this all this cannot proue your Religion good nor ours bad vnles you can proue yours true by the scriptures and ours false For as bad fruits as these you charge vs withall may be founde in them whose Religion is good as good as these you bragge of to the outward shew may be fouÌ„d where the Religion is false and idolatrous euen by your owne doctrine in the former Chapter which answere were sufficient Howbeit for the more full and particular satisfying of the commoÌ„ reader I say further first in that you forbid vs to iudge of your Religion by the view of the rotten fruit that we haue found in some that haue professed it because your Religion condemus such fruit you must not thinke much if we prescribe the same rule to you in respect of ours for as euident it is that our Religion condeÌ„neth sinne yea euen to the least sinne as euer did yours and more too in that we condemne the first motions arising in mans minde to sinne though not consented vnto to be sinne which you deny and in that we teach the least breach of the law deserueth in it selfe damnation and you doe teach there are a number veniall sinnes euen for the littlenes thereof and therefore to be put away euen with trifling toies and deuises of your owne Secondly I say that by that your Religion be conferred with the ReligioÌ„ that most of these great personages and doctors you talke of died in and both of them be tried by the scriptures and then compared with ours it wil be founde that not halfe of them died in your faith as you imagine yea that the ancientest and best of them died in ours and therefore both they and their monuments are ours and giue greater credit vnto our religion then all the rest doe vnto yours And euen of late daies diuerse famous persons of our religion haue founded Schooles Hospitals and Colledges as well as yours What Duke Cassimer is you know and what hee hath done at Newstade and elsewhere in Germanie this way it cannot bee vnknowen Euen now also with vs in England a zealous professour of our Religion and an ancient noble Counseller Sir Walter Mildemay hath founded a noble new Colledge in Cambridge called Emanuel Colledge And since the beginning of her Maiesties raigne that now is our gracious soueraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth notable things by her selfe and others there hath beene done to the erecting of Hospitals and common Schooles and also to the maintenance and furtherance of learning in both the Vniuersities
let these thinges passe and to proceede to the scanning and examining of that which you haue set downe in this Chapter you beginne with an arrogant and false bragge that all ancient doctours Greeke and Latin since the Apostles times and all the ChristiaÌ„s of the foure quarters of the world that were in those daies made their promises and vowes c. as you doe now You are wonderfull generall Master Albine and your words are very confident and swelling shal we thinke that you are a maÌ„ of that learning and reading that you speake all this vpon your owne knowledge why then hauing such a cloud of witnesses such an army royall alleage you so few of them nine or ten be the most whose names you haue brought vs in al this Chapter and these you haue brought forth vpon the stage dumbe or tongue-tied if we wil here them speake we must take the paines to attend vpon them by your direction at an other time and surely in other places then you haue pointed vs we must heare a good sort of these speake for you or else we shal neuer finde them willing to yeelde either you or your cause any one word good or bad As for vowes and promises which you make to God vnlesse thereby you meane onely such vowes and promises as both you and we make in our baptisme to renounce the Diuell and al his works c. for then you haue not so much as named vs one father Greeke or Latin nor yet any one Christian of any of the foure quarters of the world you speake of And indeede you haue amongst you such rash foolish vndiscreete and superstitious vowes and promises a number for the which you could not nor cannot truely alleadge any ancient and holy father or Christian indeede thereinto giue you any countenance Such bee you vow of single and chast life vniuersally amongst you tyed to holy orders your vowes and promises to God some of you alwaies some for a time to absteine with opinion of holines and merit from flesh and whitmeate your vowes of pilgrimage to coÌ„mit idolatry at this Saints shrine picture or at that and a number of like stampe of which kinde of vows promises if you meane I say first your glory in theÌ„ is your shame for these are but plaine wil worships condemned by Christ Mat. 15. and by Paul Coloss 2. the very bronds marks of such as according to S. Pauls prophesie in the later daies should depart froÌ„ the faith giue heede vnto spirits of errour and doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4. And further I say such vowes were better neuer made theÌ„ made being made they are of the nature dangerous consequence that the best way were first to repent of the folly and rashnes in making of them then rather quite to giue them ouer theÌ„ with such superstition and impiety to seeke to keepe them as is vsed breaks forth thereby shamefully amongst you For it is plentifully proued both out of scriptures and out of Ambrose in the second canon of the eighth couÌ„cel of Toledo that oathes that caÌ„not be performed without sinne are vnlawfull not to binde And you cannot be ignorant that Gratian causa 22 quest 4 produceth many testimonies out of the fathers to the same end and the namely out of Isidor there he hath noted set downe this for a good rule in such cases as these of yours be In malis promissis rescinde fidem in turpi voto muta decretuÌ„ quod incautè vouisti ne facias impia est promissio quae scelere adimpletur that is in euill promisses performe theÌ„ not in a filthie vow change thy purpose the which rashly thou hast vowed doe not it is an vngodly promise which is fulfilled with sin And rather then men that haue vowed promised a single life through the force of inward coÌ„cupiscence should burne and fal either to fornicatioÌ„ adultery or any other vncleannes or filthines of the flesh with were as heaueÌ„ earth all the world knowes coÌ„moÌ„ fruits of your priestly vow of single life the ancieÌ„t Doctours that you brag of here so much would haue theÌ„ to marry and to repent of their rash vow as it is euident in Cyril in his third 16. bookes vpon Leuiticus in Cyprian li. 1. Epist 11. in Epiphanius himselfe coÌ„tra apostolicos l. 2. and in August de bono coniugali de sanctâ virginitate cap. 34. But by the vowes and promises that you speake of seeing you cite no fathers for any other I will take it that you meant onelie those that you vse to make to God in Baptisme Now theÌ„ yet therein vnderstand you striue without an aduersary For we in our baptisme doe as solemnly make those vowes and promises to God to renounce the Deuill the world the flesh wtall their fruits to beleeue in God and serue him all the daies of our life as euer any of you did or doe But you say further that al these holy Doctours ChristiaÌ„s you spake of at their baptisme did vse those very ceremonies that you doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings which you doe vse in your Catholique church which we call papisticall for the proofe of the trueth whereof you name vs certaine places out of Tertullian Cyprian Origen Chrysostome Augustine Basil and Arnobius what are these all the ancient doctours and Christians since the Apostles time that you speake of Though it were graunted you that these seuen in these places were for your ceremonies which you vse in baptisme yet this were farre from all that you spake of before Thus to beginne withall euery bodie may see that you are a far mightyer man in bragging theÌ„ you dare so mâ—â—h as to make shew you are in prouing all you say But to passe by this fault herein you haue committed a second fault worse then this first For whereas you alleadge these fathers here to couÌ„tenance your whole pompe of ceremonies now vsed by you in Baptisme there is not you know well enough or else you are not so cuÌ„ning in these places as you would haue men thinke you are the halfe of your ceremonies fashions so much as barely mentioned by them in these places Exorcisme abrenuntiation crossing thrise dipping and anointing are all that I can finde any of these in any of these places to haue mentioned but that they vsed the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and anointings that you now vse as you say I finde not Your Chrisme that you anoint withall must haue as you hold balsom in it and in them I finde onely mention of oyle and none of any balsom your formes of exorcising and adiuring set downe in your seruice bookes are not found in any of these places nay it is well enough knowen they are of younger yeares by a faire deale But what are these few ceremonies the names whereof and vse whereof in some sort they had
are so ful fast of your side therin as you pretend I wil vouchsafe so much further paines as particulerly to examine al your quotations out of them The first man you name is Tertullian and in him you send vs to two places for your anointing and abrenuntiation to his booke de resurrectione carnis and for thrise dipping to his booke de coronâ militis Wherin it seemeth a little you mistooke your notes for there is no mention of abrenūtiation that I can finde in the former place in the later indeede there is but you quote the former for it not the later at all Whereby any man may see you tooke your quotations vpon trust and neuer tooke the paines to turne to the places in the authours themselues and that so it came to passe that that which you should haue fathered vpon the later place through ignorance you haue attributed to the former Anointing I find mētioned in the former place I grāt but neither the matter nor form of your anointing can I either find ther or in any other place quoted by you for it And in the other I cōfesse he mētioneth thrise dipping but to what purpose is that to iustifie your ceremonies or maner of baptizing seeing as I haue noted before out of your Tridētine cathechism in this point you are so indifferent whither it be ministred by dipping powring or sprinkling neuer once there prescribe this fashiō of thrise dipping as necessary Your second authour is Cyprian who you say in the second volume of his Epistles Epist the twelfth doeth write that the holy Chrisme was giuen vnto children that were baptized Wherein your note gatherer abused you For doubtlesse in that Epistle there is not one worde either of Chrisme or anie other Ceremonies about baptisme Indeed in the 12 Epistle of his first book of Epistles he speakes of anointing the baptized with oile but holy chrisme he calleth it not But to speake the trueth both Tertullian and he haue not onely in their workes sundry times mentioned Chrisme and anointing of the baptized but they went too farre both in vrging the necessity thereof and in attributing vnto it such diuine grace as they did insomuch that it is not without cause of the learned thought that therin they were both the schollers of Mōtanus But certaine it is of whomsoeuer they learned thus to vrge this ceremony to the obscuring preiudicing of the vse and effects of baptisme as too grossely they did in tying rather the gift of the holy Ghost to sanctifie and regenerate to it thē to baptisme they neuer learned it other of Christ nor of any sound Christian nor may any Christian more think himselfe bound to vrge it and vse it as they did because they did so then he is bound to be a Montanist because Tertullian was so or to holde rebaptization of them that before were baptized of heretiques because Cyprian did so Your nexte man is Origen to whose 12. Homilie without any further additiō and to diuerse other places of his workes without naming vnto vs any of these places you send vs for abrenuntiation and the signe of the Crosse to bee made in the baptised his forehead wherin it was your hap to shew as great negligence and ignorance as might bee For Origen wrote many times 12. Homilies as it is to be seene in his works whereas it should seeme by your kind of quoting of him that you thought he had done so but once and yet in none of these 12. Homilies that he wrote finde I these two ceremonies mentioned and as for the diuerse other places in his works that you speake of when you shall vouchsafe to name them your answere will bee as easily made Next is Chrysostome of whom you alleage two places his 12. Homily vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. and his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians and both these onely for renuntiation In the first whereof there is mention of the signe of the Crosse made in the forehead but not expressely in Baptisme and in the other there is mention of renuntiation indeede but so there is not at al in the former wherby againe one may see how you neuer turned to these places and read them your selfe and besides it is euident that either through ignorance or negligence or both you father that vpon your former noted place which you should attribute to the later as here that vpon Origen which you should haue left to Chrysostom and so shew your errour in both But what were all this if you had not beene at all thus ouerseene against vs or for you more then for vs seeing both these ceremonies or rites are reteyned and vsed amongst vs in farre better maner then with you Now followeth Augustine out of whom you quote vs in Psalm 31. Aug. lib. 15. contra Iulianum Pelagianum lib. 1. cap. 2. Item de nuptiis concupiscentiâ lib. 1. Cap. 20. In Iohannem tract 33. In Canonicam Iohannis tract 3. tra 6. de Ecclesiast dogmatibus Cap. 31. De Symbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. Cap. 11. libro de his qui initiantur sacris that is eleuen places in all wherein yet you haue more grossely shamed your selfe then in the former For first of all in these eleuen places there are but three wherein I finde any mention of any of your ceremonies and that is in his first booke and second Chapter against Iulian in his first booke and twentieth Chapter de nuptiis concupiscentiâ and in his thirty one Chapter de Ecclesiasticis dogmatibus and lay all these three togither and there are mentioned onely three that is exorcisme exufflation and abrenuntiation whereof we vse one aswell as you namely abrenuntiation and as for the other two thereof you your selues haue but the first and therefore why may not we aswell giue ouer both the other as you haue done the first of them Secondly you send vs indefinitely to his fifteene booke as you did before to Origens twelfth homily not telling vs what 15. booke you meane thinking belike that he had neuer wrote but once 15. books of one title wheras euery one that is acquainted with his works know the contrary If you say you meant his 15 booke against Iulian then therein you shew as much ignorance for against him he wrote but 6. Thirdly you father vpon Aug. two books de symbolo one de his qui initiantur sacris whereas indeed in al Augustines tomes there are no books that simply barely beare those titles to be found He wrote one book de fide symbolo 4 de symbolo ad cathecumenos but in no 7 nor 11 Chapters of any of these is there any thing for your purpose but none at al he hath writen that in title cōmeth any thing neare the other you father vpon him But I imagine that if your eie-sight or memory had not failed you you should
being on your side but in that they were of ours as they were and as I haue saied wee christianly perswade our selues that their soules are in heauen And you fearing belike for all your cauilling that touching these ancient doctours confessours and martyrs that this would be our answere because you knew it might iustly be so you were content quickely to giue ouer the pursuit of this question and to aske vs this what wee thinke in our conscience of those that maintained cōfessed your faith Religion whither they be condemned or no And to feare vs from saying they be vpon the necke of this you aske vs if it were so why then was the bloud of Christ shed affirming confidently that if this were so that then it had beene better that Christ had neuer suffered This indeede I doe know to be one of your common bugges whereby you seeke to make the simple affraide either to forsake you or to ioyne with vs saying when you see men about thus to doe what will you condemne all your forefathers And to this end with manie words you āplifie the goodnes of the forefathers what an vnchristian cruelty it is to cōdemne all our ancient forefathers Before I come to the answering of which obiection I cannot but tell you that in setting downe so bluntly boldly as you haue that if they that confessed and maintained your Religion be condemned that then it had beene better that Christ neuer had died you haue vttered grosse intollerable blasphemy For though none such should be saued by the death of Christ thousand thousands both haue bene and shal be saued therby better it were that al such as you meane should for euer be condemned then that this speech of yours had any trueth in it But to answer this your obiection taken frō the dangerousnes of condēning forefathers because by the nāe of thē you keep men as you doe in your Romish and Babilonical captiuity first the reader is to vnderstand that an argument takē frō forefathers simply without distinction but as you doe this of yours in matters of Religion is not good For Ez. 20. we read that the Lord saied thus vnto his people walke not in the preceps of your fathers neither obserue their maners nor defile your selues with their idols And Dauid saieth Ps 78. Let thē not be as their forefathers were a disobediēt rebellious generatiō c. And the like warning the people had Psal 95. Zach. 1. Ier. 11. Whereupō Peter telleth the Christians to whom he wrote that by the bloud of Christ they were redeemed frō the vaine cōuersation of their fathers 1. Pet. 1. If this argument had beene good when Christ came sent his Apostles abroad to preach the gospell to al natiōs our forefathers in all natiōs then did ill in receiuing the doctrine of the gospell For their forefathers for some 1000. yeares before had held professed mainteined heathenish paganisme And it seemeth that many of the heathē then vsed this very argument of yours to keepe men in paganisme still For such an obiectiō I read both made by thē answered by Peter as it is writē Clemētis lib. 5. recognitionū by Ignatius ad Philadelphēses by Augustin in quaest veteris noui testamēti quaest 114. By this reason saied Peter as Clemēt reports it If a mans father be a thiefe or a bawde the child must be no other To such as saied they would beleeue no other gospell thē they foūd their forefathers had Ignatius answereth my antiquity is Iesus Christ whō not to obey is manifest damnation That which was before saieth Augustine the Paganes say cānot be bad To whom he answereth saying as though antiquity may preiudice trueth For thus might murderers wantons adulterers other lewd liuers defend their wickednesses because they are old haue beene frō the beginning saieth he So that both scripture reasō the ancient fathers themselues teach vs that it is not alwaies safe to cōtinue in the Religion wherein our forefathers liued died and so easily we may perceiue that this your argument how cōmon soeuer it be with you is of no force For it hath beene the old argument of Pagans doubtles is at this day the chiefe argument that keepeth Turks Jewes from yeelding to the Gospell least then they should condemne all their forefathers But as your argument is naught so your antecedent is false also For albeit that our Religion differ from yours as it doeth yet farre is it from vs that therefore we condemne all our forefathers For first we know that frō Christ wel near 1000. yeares they thē that professed Christ for the most part liued died holding the foūdatiō many other principall points of religiō with vs therfore of their saluatiō we doubt not Secondly euer since howsoeuer a nūmber fell away frō the trueth seemed wholy to be yours yet we are perswaded we know it to be true especially since Petrus Vald his time who was 400. yeares ago there haue beene great knowen multitudes openly ioyning with vs in the chiefest points of our religion dissenting frō you as I haue shewed before And when there seemed to be fewest yet we beleeue that that God that could did preserue vnto himself in the litle kingdom of Israel in such a miserable time asking Ahabs time was 7000. that there had not bowed their knees to Baal that the God I say euē whē popery seemed to haue preuailed most according to the comfortable visions that Iohn had to that end Apoc. 7. 14 yet had preserued vnto him in al the kingdomes and prouinces of the world infinite numbers that yet neither in forehead nor hand would beare the marke of the beast of all these we hope well also Thirdly euen concerning such of our forefathers as seemed to the world to be of your religiō we thinke a number also are saued For euen amongst them there are .3 sortes to be cōsidered The first sort are they that liued and died in all your grosse and erronious opiniōs The second are they that though a long time they seemed to liue in them yet ere they died God caused to see the vanity thereof at least cōcerning your doctrine of iustificatiō so through the sight of their sins in his mercy he brought them to die protesting that they trusted not to be saued in part nor in whole by their owne works or by any other meanes but onely by his free mercy through Iesus Christ alone The third sort is of them which though they were yours for some outward ceremonies that they were contented to vse with you in that they held some other fond opinions with you yet neuer ioined with you indeed in seeking for saluation little or much by any thing that you taught them to put their trust in that way but only looked for beleeued to attaine vnto it for that which Christ
bouÌ„ds of the Romish Church vniuersal but eueÌ„ as the Donatists shut vp the Church in Africk so do the Romanists within the coÌ„passe of a corner of the world in coÌ„parison of al the rest which they cut of from the coÌ„munion of the Church And yet there is nothing more vsual with Master Ioh. de Albine in this his book theÌ„ to labour to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce the Romish Synagogue with these two things antiquity vniuersality But as for vniuersality it may appeare by that which I haue saied by that which euery one may easily coÌ„ceiue if he coÌ„pare theÌ„ the professe Christ whoÌ„ they reiect as heretickes schismaticks with theÌ„ that receiue honour the popish religion that it is now and hath beene a long time rather with theÌ„ whoÌ„ they thus coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ with theÌ„selues And as for antiquity most certaine it is that the Turks the Nestorians the CircuÌ„cisers may a great deale more iustly brag therof theÌ„ they For the Turkes haue beene in possession of their full Mahometisme these 900 years the heresie of the NestoriaÌ„s hath continued these 1200 years amongst the Georgians And the heresie of them that ioine circuÌ„cision with baptisme continueth yet in Africa in AEthiopia vnder Presbyter Iohn hath these 1500 years whereas popery is not so old as the youÌ„gest of these in that almost al the points therof wherfore it is so called haue beene deuised and brought in since the youngest of these began But put the case that popish religion were ancient indeede and had the greatest part of the world to follow it must it needs therfore follow that it were the trueth the best way No indeed For who can deny that Gentilism or Paganish idolatry wheÌ„ the Apostles were sent first to preach the gospel to the GeÌ„tiles was very ancient For it had welnigh continued then from Noahs fâ—ould vntill that time And neuer was popery of so manie nations so vniuersally receiued as that was And yet who is so simple but he knoweth now for all this that that was a way that led to destruction And if the mystery of iniquity beganne to worke in the Apostle Paules time and yet Antichrist the father thereof was not quite to be abolished before the brightnes of Christs second comming as he plainely teacheth 2. Thess 2. it being withall prophesied that the whore of Babylon Antichrists right patterne should sit vpon many waters that is rule ouer many people and cause the kings and nations of the earth to be drunk with the wine of her fornication as it is Reuelat. 17. who seeth not that euen Antichristianity may be countenanced with great shew both of antiquity vniuersality as certaine and good tokens as the Romanists count these two of the true Church of Christ Which things considered howsoeuer it pleaseth Master Ioh. de Albine here to iest at vs as men like to the children of God in nothing but in this folly that contrary to the fashion of the wise children of the world we chuse rather to trust a few then many we are contented therein to be like them stil and so rather to chuse to enter into the Arke with 8. persons Ge. 7. so to be saued then to refuse so to doe with all the world besides so to be drowned And I would aduise him for al his wisedome to be such a foole as rather with two or three to flie out of Sodom with Lot Gen. 19 then with all the rest to tarry behinde and to be destroied with fire and brimstone For howsoeuer he count this folly Christ who is wisedome it selfe hath charged his to striue to enter in at the straight gate though few go the way many the other broad way For that is the way that wil lead vnto saluation whereas the other leadeth to destruction Luke 13. But the men whom he nameth Luther Zuinglius and Oecolampadius though they be men whom we thinke wel of and whose memories shal be famous in Gods Church for al his blinde prophecie to the contrary when the names of a thousand such as himselfe is shal bee either buried in obliuion or infamous for their resisting of Gods trueth are not the men vpon whom wee build our religion These we account such as in these later daies God vsed to very good purpose to reuiue further to publish and make knowen the doctrine of trueth then it was when they beganne first But the men that we trust and leane vnto in this case are those holy men of God and such like as Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Pet. 1 which spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost so haue left the will of God for our full direction vnto vs in the holy Scripture And these the ancient Christians and Doctours for six hundred yeares after Christ and infinite numbers since euen downe vnto the times of these whom he here nameth as I haue shewed in the fourth Chapter of this booke and else where togither with vs haue followed And further then these writers of the canonical scriptures haue led any of these we doe not nor meane not to follow theÌ„ You shew therefore Master Albine but the nature of your Romish spirit in your confident aduouching without all proofe that these men you name gained soules to the Deuill and that they haue so fold their honesty credit that few now know that euer they liued in the worlde For besides your rash and vncharitable iudging of theÌ„ you speake that which your owne heart tolde you was a lie For you could not bee ignorant but that these mens names are knowen to thousands that neuer read their stories But you say that you agree with vs in not trusting of men but in trusting to the very word writeÌ„ but you and we vary about the interpretation for we interpret it after one sort and you after another we after a new sort and the Catholicke Church whereby wrongfully stil you meane your owne doeth follow the olde exposition of the ancient doctours and traditions with we haue forsaken Herein you say more then either you or any of your fellowes wil stand to For when it commeth to the point the greatest champions of you confesse that a number of the things that are in controuersie betwixt you and vs are without the coÌ„passe of the scripture and therfore least they should be quite reiected they vnder prop them with the rotten prop which yet they labour to make to carry some shew of strength of traditions or of the word vnwriten And in the other point concerning interpretation that therein we vary it is true but that the variety is as you say it is false For we neuer refused the exposition of the Catholicke Church nor to vse the helpe of her sound and Catholicke Doctours or traditions agreing with the word writeÌ„ as helpeth the better to attaine to the right sence therof by Indeed the interpretation of your new Apostata Church of Rome her false doctours and
to offer him againe to his father If by penance he vnderstand repentance we neither preach against it nor against any worthy fruit thereof For we most earnestly call for both but if by penance be vnderstood either voluntary or enioyned penance as they commonly take it ioyned with an opinion thereby either to satisfie for sinnes past or to merit at Gods hand because we know that such penance and all the fruits thereof are abhominable before God because thereby Christ is robbed of that honour of a ful and perfect sauiour in by himselfe alone that is due vnto him then we graunt as we haue iust cause we preach against it Otherwise fasting straightnes of life watching and lawfull vowes to make vs more ready feruent in holy prayer we commend and vrge Indeed praying to Saints because we haue neither example coÌ„mandement nor promise in Gods book to encourage vs thereunto but all to the contrary we condemne as grosse idolatry and likewise prayer for soules departed as they vse it to relieue foules in purgatory for the same reasons and sundry other we preach against But what we teach of these two points and what not and what reasons we haue for our so doing and how quite voide they be of all ground for theirs I refer thee to the 37 Chapter of my answere to Albine where I haue at large shewed these things And thus much therfore for this 3 signe The next is to bring a schisme into the Church coÌ„trary to Pauls exhortation 1. Cor 1. and that such a schisme as wherby not onely one member shall be seperated from an other but the whole mystical body from the true head Christ Iesus which we to haue done in seperating our selues from their Church not they hee assumeth and so concludeth when the learned protestant can shew the coÌ„trary that he wil recant and not before Still thus thou maiest see good reader that this man is no changling For vnles that be graÌ„ted him which is the maine point betwixt vs that their Church is the true Church of Christ their doctrine the sound catholicke faith and religion he hath no ground or foundation for any thing he saieth For he cannot be so ignorant as to imagine that euery one straight is authour of such a schisme as he here speaketh of that by doctrine draweth others from euery society or company inuesting themselues with the name of the Church and bragging that they haue the trueth For what would he then make of Christ and his Apostles who in their time drew so many after them from holding any longer coÌ„mâ—â—tion with the Synagogue of the Iewes that then I am sure bragged as confidently of both these as this man and his fellowes doe now Or what would he say to those ancieÌ„t catholicks after Liberius time that when Arrianisme had in great part ouer run the world and the Arrians for many yeeres togither bragged theÌ„selues to be the onely 〈◊〉 catholicks disgracing theÌ„ that were so indeed with the name of Omousians that yet though they had got both bishops and emperours so many and so fast of their opinion that they had in ten seuerall councels goe sentence of their side ceased not labouring and traueling vntill they had drawen men againe to breake from them and to ioine with the poore persecuted contempt the number that then yet persecuted in the trueth I am sure they 〈◊〉 not for shame for all this count either Christ and his Apostles or these ancient catholicks antichristian heretickes or schismatiques And our drawing of meÌ„ by our doctrine now in these later daies from them is nothing else in trueth but an imitating as nigh as we can these renoumed and vndoubted good presidents examples that so the kingdome of Antichrist according to Saint Pauls prophesie might fal into consumption 2. Thessalonians 2 and that great Babylon might yet at leÌ„gth as it was reuealed vnto Ioh. Reuelations cap. 14. fall and come downe For not onely we saw that the Church of Rome had made a schisme but such an apostasie euen in the fundamentall points of Christian religion from Christ and his Church that there was no remedy but that we must breake of from her as we did or else we could neuer haue communioÌ„ indeed in Christ with his true Church Though therefore we know and at the first knew that peace vnity and concord were pretious things and by al lawfull meanes to be laboured for yet knowing withall as we doe did that it is vnity in verity and not in errour impiety with Christ not with Antichrist that is so much to be set by blame vs not for chusing rather according to these good exaÌ„ples to haue war with men then with God discord with Antichrist and al hes bread then with Christ and his members We grauÌ„t them therfore that to bring into the Church such a schisme as shal make diuision not onely amoÌ„gst Christs meÌ„bers but also of the body from the head is indeed an vndoubted signe of antichristian heretickes but wheras he taketh this for grauÌ„ted that this we haue done in departing froÌ„ theÌ„ as we haue that we deny For we teach men to hold hold our selues that faith religion as we are alwaies ready to proue by the canonical scriptures of the old and new testament that alwaies the true Church of Christ hath held and therfore which when hardly both holdeth the liuely members amongst themselues is vnity and also knitteth theÌ„ and their head Christ so fast together as that no popish or antichristian tiranny shall euer be able to seuer them And howesoeuer this proude challengeâ— thought wtâ—â— impossible thing for the learned protestant to proue that they haue brought into the Church such a schisme as hee speaketh of I the vnlearnedst often thousande doubt not that I am very well able to doe it For this is most certaine and cleare Iesus Christ the Sauiour of the worlde indeede is at this point beeing euery waie so able and willing as he did in his owne person and by himselfe alone to go through with the office of a most perfect Sauiour of mankinde that either so hee must bee beleeued in and trusted vnto for that matter or else hee taketh himselfe antichristianlie robbed of that 〈◊〉 and glory that is due vnto him and therefore wil be no part of a sauiour at all to such That this is most true appeareth because it is writed that God is so iealouse of his owne honour and glory that hee wil not abide that any should therein bee pertaker with him or rob him of any ioâ—t therof Esay 42. that in him all thinges are already prepared Matthew the twenty two that his name is the onely name whereby commeth saluation Actes 4. that hee is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reu. 1. that he is the authour finisher of our faith Heb. 12. that by one offering he hath consecrated for