madnes to dispute against that which the whole Church throughout the world doth practice And he addeth in the same place though it be not coÌ„teined in the scriptures 36. Wherfore for Iohn Fox and his reuerenc maister Nicolas Ridley Peter Martyr and others to come out now with a dialogue or brauling altercation betweene custome and verity about the matter of the Sacrament and to seeke to sett them by the eares or make a diuorse betweene them for that custome had continueâ— from the beginning of our conuersion to that day without verity was a very simple and rediculous diuise worthy Iohn Fox his wiâ—â— and grauity for by this he confesseth in effect that custome and antiquity was against him wherof we in this matter do rightly also inferre verity I say in this matter concerninge Christian faith and beleefe receaued in the Church by custome and tradition of former ages which our sauiour Christ did promise to assist with his spiritt of truth whatsoeuer Fox or his fellowes may obiect or we admitt against Idolatry or other reprehensible customes of former tymes amongst the Iewes gentills nations contreyes and common-welthes different from the Christian Church all which had no such assurance of truth for beginninge and continuinge their customes as our Christian Church hath And so much of this feigned fight betweene custome and verity in Christian Religion whatsoeuer arguments of moment are alleaged in the combatt betweene them about the reall presence shal be afterward handled in their due places So as of this disputation and Martyn Bucers we shall make but one to witt the sixt Seauenth Disputation §. 7. 37. Hitherto are the publike disputations recorded by Fox to haue byn held by Protestants for establishinge and authorizinge their new religion vnder K. Edward and all within the compasse of one yeare to witt 1549. there ensue now foure other appointed some foure yeares after in the first of Q. Maryes raigne 1553. vvhich albeit they were vnder a Catholike gouernement yet were they for giuinge satisfaction only to Protestants of those dayes when Catholike Religion was to be restored to th' end that the other might see their owne leuity in changinge the same And the first of these disputations being the seauenth in order was held in the conuocation house at S. Paules Church in London begon as Fox saith vpon the 18. of October in the foresaid yeare and during for six dayes togeather The questions vvere the accustomed about the reall presence and Transubstantiation The manner of disputinge was not in forme or after any fashion of schoole but rather of proposinge doubts and answeringe the same for satisfaction of them that were not resolued and so much lesse then in the former was any thinge pursued to any point of triall Doctor VVeston deane of VVestminster was chosen prolocutor who protested in his preface as Fox saith that this conference vvas not held to call any points of Catholike Religion into doubt but to solue such scruples or doubts as any man might pretend to haue 38. This conuocation consisted for the greatest part of all those clergy-men that had borne rule in K. Edwards dayes exceptinge Cranmer Ridley Latymer and Rogers and I know not yf any other that were commytted before And the first point that was handled therin was about a certayne Caluinian Catechisme sett forth a little before vnder the name of that conuocation whervnto the prolocutor required subscriptions to testifie that yt was not sett forth by their consents meaninge as yt seemed therby to conuince Ridley or Crammer or both of false dealinge therin The second point was of subscribing to the reall presence whervnto all the whole house agreed saith Fox sauinge fiue or six to witt Maister Philips Deane of Rochester Maister Haddon Deane of Exceter Maister Philpott Archdeacon of VVinchester Maister Cheyney Archdeacon of Hereford Maister Elmour Archdeacon of Stow and one other whome he nameth not and by these were propounded all the doubts that were there discussed and as for the first two dayes there was nothinge done at all but a certaine communication The third day came the Lord great-master with the Earle of Deuonshire and diuers other noble men and Cheiney afterward Bishopp of Glocester who confessed the reall presence but not Transubstantiation proposed some doubts about the second point which we shall afterwards examine in their place The prolocutor appointed Doctor Moreman to aunswere him and the rest extempore wherby we may ghesse how substantiall a disputation yt was for that the defendant came nothinge at all prepared Phoâ—ipps also proposed some what about the reall presence Elmour and Haddon spake little vpon that day though the next day Elmour then Chaplaine to the Duke of Suffolke and after Bishopp of London read certayne authorityes but of a note-booke which he had gathered against the reall presence â—9 But of all other the most busy was Philpott both that day and the other followinge vauntinge and chalenginge the whole company to dispute Then quoth Philpott saith Fox I vvill speake playne English the Sacrament of the Altar which yee reckon to be all one with the masse is no Sacrament at all neyther is Christ any wise present in yt and this his sayinge he offered to proue before the vvhole house yf they listed to call him thervnto and before the Queens grace and her counsell and before the face of six of the best learned men of the house of the contrary opinion and refused none And yf I shall not be able quoth he to maintayne by Gods word that I haue said and confound those six which shall take vpon them to withstand me in this point let me be burned with as many sag gotts as be in London before the court-gates c. This was Philpotts vaunt and yet yf yee consider the poore arguments he brought forth in this conference which afterwards shal be discussed togeather with his fond answers that he gaue in his 15. or 16. seuerall examinations before the Bishopps of VVinchester London Chichester Bangor and others for so much payne was taken to saue him yow will say that his B. Gardiner had reason when he held him for more then halfe madd as in his story we haue related Consider also that his denying Christ to be present any wise in the Sacrament is much different from that yow heard Maister Perne affirme before by approbation of Maister Ridley the moderator that Christs body was truly wholy and verily in the Sacrament after a certayne propriety but these men must not be taken at their words 40. And finally the conclusion of all this conference with Philpott was that the prolocutor in the end seing him out of all reason to trouble the house layed two comaundements vpon him the first that he should not come thither any more vnlesse he came in gowne and typpett as the others came the second that he should not speake but
A REVIEVV OF TEN PVBLIKE DISPVTATIONS Or Conferences held vvithin the compasse of foure yeares vnder K. Edward Qu. Mary concerning some principall points in Religion especially of the Sacrament sacrifice of the Altar VVHERBY May appeare vpon how vveake groundes both Catholike Religion vvas changed in England as also the fore-recounted Foxian Martyrs did build their new opinions and offer themselues to the fire for the same vvhich vvas chiefly vpon the creditt of the said Disputations BY N. D. Aug. lib. 2. against Petilian the Donatist VVe are constrayned to heare discusse and refute these trifles of yours least the simpler and weaker sort should fall into your snares Imprinted vvith licence Anno M. DC IIII. The contentes of this Reuievv THe Preface shewing what vtility disputation may bring for discussion of matters in controuersy and how farre togeather with the causes why the reuiew of these ten disputations is now published 1. Often publike disputations recounted by Iohn Fox to haue byn held in England about controuersies in Religion especially concerninge the blessed Sacrament of the Altar vvithin the space of foure yeares at two seuerall changes of Religion vnder K. Edward and Q. Mary besides many other more particular held in Bishops consistoryes and other places about the same matters CHAP. I. 2. The state of the cheife question handled in the forsaid disputations concerninge the Reall presence Transubstantiation and the Sacrifice of the Masse with the cheese grounds that be on eyther side CHAP. II. 3. Certayne obseruations to be noted for better answeringe of hereticall cauillations against the forsaid articles CHAP. III. 4. The examination of such arguments as in the former disputations were alleaged by the Zivinglians and Caluinists against the Reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament CHAP. IV. 5. VVhat Catholike arguments were alleaged in these disputations for the reall presence how they were answered or shifted of by the Protestants CHAP. V. 6. Of two other articles about Transubstantiation and the Sacrament of the Altar what passed in this disputation CHPP. VI. THE PREFACE Shewinge what vtility disputation may bringe for discussion of matters in controuersie how farre togeather vvith the causes vvhy the reuievv of these ten disputations is now published THAT disputation is a good meanes and profitable instrument to examine and try out truth euen in matters of faith yf yt be rightly vsed vvith due circumstances no man can deny for that experience in Gods Church doth teach yt to vvitt that great vtility hath often-tymes byn receaued by such disputations and vve read amonge other examples that in the tyme of Antoninus the Emperour sonne of Seuerus that died in Yorke a little more then a hundred yeares after Christ the Montanists heresy vvho vvere called also Cataphrigians grovving strong and dravvinge to it diuers pricipall men and namely Tertullian vvith the admiratiō of the vvhole vvorld one Caius a Cath man most excellently learned and of rare and vertuous life tooke vpon him to dispute publikely in Rome in the presence of the vvhole Church vvith licēce of Zepherinus the Pope against a chiefe principall man of that sect called Proclus and so confounded him therin as frō that day forvvard the sect began greatly to decline of vvhich disputatiō do make mentiō both Eusebius S. Hierome yt did much profitt that Catholike cause 2. And about 2. hundred yeares after this againe vve read of another profitable disputation held in our countrey by S. Germanus his fellovves French Bishopps vvith the Brittish Pelagians vpon the yeare of Christ 429. vvherby they vvere so confuted as also vvith the miracles vvrought by S. German by certaine reliques brought from Rome as their heresie neuer prospered there aftervvard but vvas soone extinguished VVe read in like manner of diuers publike cōflicts disputatiōs held by S. Austen vvith diuers learned heretiks of sundry sects as namely vvith Fortunatus a Manichean priest in the citty of Hippo in Africa vpon the yeare 392. al the clergy people being present publike notaryes appointed to set dovvne both their argumēts the issue of this disputatiōs vvas that vvhē the Manichean heretike could not ansvvere he said saith Possidonius secum suis maioribus collaturum that he vvould conferre those difficultyes vvith his betters then if they could not satisfy him se animae suae consulturum that he vvould haue care of his ovvne soule But this care vvas saith the same Possidonius that he ranne avvay from the citty and neuer appeared there againe VVhich point S. Augustine himselfe obiecteth in a certayne epistle to another Manichee Priest that came to succeed in Fortunatus his place in that citty prouokinge him also to like disputation but the heretike refused the combatt 3. And after this againe the said Father being novv made Bishopp vpon the yeare of Christ 405. he disputed publikely for tvvo dayes togeather vvith another principall Manichean heretike named Foelix in presence of the vvhole people notaryes being appointed on both sides to take their arguments In vvhich disputation S. Austen did so euidently conuince his aduersarie as he in the end yelded a strange example in an heretike and renounced his heresie and became a Catholike vvhereby the Mauichean heresie vvas so shaken and discredited throughout all Africa as no man euer openly aftervvard durst defend the same in disputation but it vanished avvay by little and little as a smoke vvhen the fire is putt out This vvhole disputation is to be seene at large in S. Austen laid forth in tvvo books of his de actis cum Faelice Manichaeo And this for the Manicheans 4. But vvith the Donatists and Arrians he had many other like conflicts as for example vpon the yeare of Christ 411. there vvas a sollemne disputation held at Carthage in Africa for diuers daies togeather betvvene the Catholike and Donatist Bishopps the Cath. Bishopps being in number 286. vvherof the principall disputer vvas S. Austen himselfe of the Donatist Bishops 279. vvhich shevveth the multitude of heretiks in those parts to haue byn great notvvithstandinge they had bin much diminished by Cath. Bishops labours and vvrytings for that 17. yeares before there mett togeather against the Catholiks 400. Donatist Bishopps exceptinge six this disputation vvas before the Conte Marcellinus gouernour of that countrey and publike notaryes vvere present to take the argumēts on both sides and all being ended the Iudge pronounced this sentence Omnium documentorum manifestatione à Catholicis Donatistas confutatos That the Donatists vvere conuinced by the Catholiks by the manifest truth of all kind of arguments S. Augustine himselfe setteth forth a breefe relation of all that meeting disputation intituling yt Breuiculum And in a certayne epistle of his testifieth moreouer of the euent that albeit those miserable Bishops vvere not conuerted therby but rather made more obstinate obdurate yet that many of their people vvere especially of the
to aduenture vpon so great a change in beleefe as this was after so many yeares being a Priest and Catholike Bishopp and offeringe sacrifice after the manner of the Catholike Church from the first day of our contreyes conuersion vnto th' end of K. Henryes raigne His motiues were as yow heare certayne places of the scripture which were only taken out of the Epistle to the Hebrues talkinge of Christs bloudy sacrifice on the crosse which was but one certayne places of the Fathers to witt two or three misvnderstood out of S. Augustine and one out of Fulgentius all which notwithstandinge proue nothinge for his purpose as after yow shall see declared in their place and turne And the selfe same Fathers haue so many other cleere places to the contrary as we will desire no better iudges for proofe of our Catholike cause then yf Ridley would remitt himselfe to these two Fathers iudgements by him cyted against vs for that both of them do professe themselues to be Priests and to offer externall sacrifice vpon the Altar as our Priests do now 27. Consider then how wise and constant a man Ridley was to leaue his ancient faith so generally receaued throughout all Christendome in his dayes and so many yeares practised by himselfe vpon two such motiues as are certayne places of scripture misvnderstood by himselfe and certayne testimonyes of Fathers that seemed to him to haue some difficulty Which Ieuity vvas so displeasaunt vnto almighty God as by the effects we see that wheras at the beginning he seemed to doubt vpon these two motiues leauinge other men to iudge therof he became by little and little to be so obstinately blinded at length therin as albeit some foure or fiue yeares after he were openly conuicted in disputations at Oxford as by his answers yow shall afterwards see yet was he content to burne for the same which was the highest degree of calamity that could fall vpon him in body and soule And thus much of him and his determination for the present Sixt Disputation §. 6. 28. In all the former disputations both at Oxford and Cambridge yow shall find nothinge of friar Martyn Bucer no not so much as that he is once named in all these conflicts about the blessed Sacrament And yet yow must remember that he was principall reader of diuinity in Cambridge at this tyme as Peter Martyr was in Oxford and therfore as the first place was giuen to the said Peter in Oxford so yt is likely that the same would haue byn to Martyn in Cambridge yf they had found him so pliable to their hands in his opinions about the Sacrament as the other was but in no case would he be induced as yet to accommadate himselfe therin and therfore had he not any part allowed him in this comedy eyther of defendant opponent disputer counselour moderator assistant or other office or imployment nay yt is thought that he incurred so great disgrace about this matter as he could willingly haue departed the realme againe as Bernardinus Ochinus vpon such like discontentment did from London had not the necessity of his woman and other impediments of pouerty letted him not knowinge well whither to goe as being expulsed from Argentina at his comming to England as before we haue shewed in the story of his life 29. Wherfore resoluinge himselfe at length to passe ouer this mortification and to giue our English Protestants some satisfaction though not in the points which they desired he thought it good after Ridleyes departure to defend certayne other paradoxes which Fox recordeth in these words Ouer and besides these disputations aboue mentioned other disputations vvere holden in Cambridge shortly after by Martyn Bucer vpon these conclusions followinge First that the canonicall bookes of scripture alone do sufficiently teach the regenerate all things necessary belonginge to saluation Secondly there is no Church on earth that erreth not as well in faith as in manners Thirdly we are so iustified freely of God that before our iustification yt is sinne and prouoketh Gods wrath against vs whatsoeuer good worke we seeme to do Then being iustifyed we do good works 30. These were Bucers conclusions which well I may call paradoxes for that euen in the common sense iudgement of euery meane capacity the falsity and absurdity therof is apparant For as touchinge the first though we graunt that the diuine books of scripture yf they were fewer then they are respectinge Gods holy prouidence are sufficient to teach both regenerate and not regenerate that beleeue the verity therof the true way of saluation and that the said diuine prouidence hath doth and will so prouide that albeit some parts of these we now haue should be lost as diuers others before haue byn yet should the remnant still be sufficient to that purpose with such other supplyes of Gods assistance as he would send yet to say as this man doth that the canonicall bookes of scripture alone do sufficiently teach all things belonginge to saluation yf by alone he will exclude all other helpes of tradition antiquity testimony of the Church interpretation of the Fathers direction of generall Councells and other like aydes yt is a most absurd paradox for neyther can we know which bookes are to be held canonicall nor what they teach truly sincerely nor what may be deduced out of them yf we remoue the former helpes And the case is as yf one of the Kings of our countrey goinge abroad as some did to Hierusalem or other forrayne warres and intending to be longe absent should leaue with his Councellors for their better gouernement certayne lawes wrytten with his owne hand other directions by word of mouth how to proceed interprett and vse them commaunding all men to obay them and that some troublesome people after many yeares continuance in their gouernement should appeale from them to the Kings wrytten lawes only prayinge the sufficiency therof for better colouâ—inge their pretence and suinge that yt were â— blott vnto the said lawes and to the Kings wisdome that made them to acknowledge any insufficiency at all in them for perfect direction of the common welth which lawes â—et themselues would expound as pleased them best for their owne purposes â—1 In this case who seeth not whervnto this practise tendeth and for what causes so great prayses are giuen to the sufficiency of these lawes vsed to make the praisers iudges of all and to exempt them from all controlment of others And the very same is seene in the other case of the scriptures which being written by the spiritt and fingar of God himselfe and deliuered vnto vs by the Church whose commission also and authority in the same scriptures is sett downe byndinge vs vnder dlamnation to heare her from age to age as the pillar and firmament of truth there stepp vp togeather diuers sorts of sectarves in all ages of this of ours Lutherans
sectaryes of our tyme do follow him in that assertion then can they haue no ground or certainty this way but each man and woman must seeke other grounds and proofes and stand vpon their owne iudgements for triall of the same which how well the most part of people can do being eyther yonge simple vnlearned or otherwayes so busyed in other matters as they cannot attend thervnto euery man of meane discretion will consider and consequently they must needs be said both to liue and dye vvithout any ground of their faith at all but proper opinion and so perish euerlastingely 9. The famous Doctor S. Augustine handleth this matter in a speciall booke to his frend Honoratus deceaued by the Manichies as himselfe also sometymes had byn and he intituleth his booke De vtilitate credendi of the profitt that commeth to a man by beleeuing the Church and points of faith therin taught without demaundinge reason or proofe therof which the Manichies derided and said that they required nothinge to be beleeued of their followers but that which first should be proued to them by good proofe and reason and not depend only of mens creditt but the holy Father scorneth this hereticall bragg and oftentation of theirs and commendeth highly the contrary custome of simple beleeuinge vpon the creditt of the Catholike Church for that otherwise infinite people should haue no faith at all and exhorteth his frend Honoratus to take the same course first to beleeue and after to seeke the reason His discourse is this Fac nos nunc primum quaerere cuinam Religioni animas nostras c. Suppose that we now first of all did seeke vnto what Religion we should commit our soules to be purged and rectified without all doubt we must begin with the Catholike Church for that she is the most eminent now in the world there being more Christians in her at this day then in any other Church of Iewes and Gentills put togeather And albeit amongst these Christians there may be sects and heresies and all of them would seeme to be Catholiks and do call others besides themselues heretiks yet all graunt that yf we consider the whole body of the world there is one Church amongst the rest more eminent then all other more plentifull in number as they which know her do affirme more sincere also in truth but as concerninge truth we shall dispute more afterward now yt is sufficient for them that desire to learne that there is a Catholike Church which is one in yt selfe whervnto diuers heretiks do feigne and diuise diuers names wheras they and their sects are called by peculiar names which themselues cannot deny wherby all men that are indifferent not letted by passion may vnderstand vnto what Church the name Catholike which all parts desire pretend is to be giuen 10. Thus S. Augustine teachinge his frend how he might both know and beleeue the Catholike Church and all that shee taught simply and without asking reason or proofe And as for knowing and discerning her from all other Churches that may pretend to be Catholike we heare his marks that she is more eminent vniuersall greater in number and in possession of the name Catholike The second that she may be beleeued securely and cannot deceaue nor be deceaued in matters of faith he proueth elswhere concluding finally in this place Si iam satis tibi iactatus videris c. Yf thou dost seeme to thy selfe now to haue byn sufficiently tossed vp and downe amonge sectaryes and wouldst putt an end to these labours and tormoyles follow the way of Cath. discipline which hath flowen downe vnto vs from Christ by his Apostles and is to flow from vs to our posterity 11. This then is the iudgement and direction of S. Augustine that a man should for his first ground in matters of faith looke vnto the beleefe of the greatest most eminent Church of Christendome that hath endured longest embraceth most people hath come downe from our fore-fathers with the name of Catholike not only among her owne professors but euen among her enemyes Iewes infidells and heretiks and so is termed held by them in their common speach as the said Father in diuers others places declareth at large Which rule of direction yf we will follow about these three articles of faith now proposed the reall presence Transubstantiation and Sacrifice of the masse yt is easily seene what ground we haue for their beleefe in this kind of proofe so highly esteemed by S. Augustine which is the authority of the vniuersall Cath. Church For that when Luther and his followers began to oppose themselues in our dayes no man can deny but that our beleefe in these articles was generally receaued ouer all Christendome as well Asia and Africa where so euer Christians be as Europe and so vpward tyme out of mynd neither can any beginning be assigned to these doctrines in the Cath. Church but only a certayne definition and determination of some Councells about the name of Transubstantiation as after shal be declared 12. Now then hauinge found out this first ground which S. Augustine and other Fathers do make so great accoumpt of which is the authority and beleefe of that Church that generally is called Catholike Yf we passe further and see what grounds this Church had or hath to admytt the same which yet is not needfull or possible to all sortes of men for that only can be done by the learneder sort we shall find that she hath such grounds as may conuince any man that is not obstinate and indurate to the contrary And first to begin with the article of the reall presence what ground proofe or Theologicall demonstration can there bee which the Cath. Church hath not for her beleefe in that high mistery which as it was to be one of the cheefest most sacred and admirable of Christian Religion so was yt meet that yt should be confirmed by all the principall wayes that any article of faith could or can be confirmed that is to say both by scriptures of the ould and new Testament and the true exposition therof by auncient Fathers that liued before this controuersie began with Sacramentaryeâ— by authority and tradition of the Apostles and their successors by testimony of auncient Fathers from age to age by consent and agreement practise and vse of the vniuersall Church by the concourse and approbation of almighty God with euident and infinite miracles by confession of the aduersaryes and other such generall heads of arguments which Catholike diuines do produce for this truth for iustifyinge the Churches faith therin 13. And out of the scriptures their demonstration is not single or of one sort only but in diuers manners as to the height and dignity of so diuine and venerable a mystery was conuenient For that out of the ould Testament they shew how yt was prefigured and prophesied and in the new both promised
do beare Nay himselfe doth add a new consirmation when he saith that he which doth eate and drinke vnworthily this Sacrament reus erit â—orporis sanguinis Domini shal be guilty of the body and bloud of our Lord. And againe Iuâ—cium sibi manducat bibit non dijudicans corpus Domini he doth eat drinke his owne iudgement not discerninge the body of our Lord Which inferreth the reall presence of Christes body which those whome the Apostle reprehendeth by the fact of their vnworthy receauing doe so behaue themselues as yf they did not discerne it to be present All which laid togeather the vniforme consent of expositors throughout the whole Christian world concurringe in the selfe-same sense and meaninge of all these scriptures about the reall presence of Christs true body in the Sacrament yow may imagine what a motiue yt is and ought to be to a Catholike man who desireth to beleeue and not to striue and contend And thus much for scriptures 17. There followeth the consideration of Fathers Doctors and Councells wherein as the Sacramentaryes of our tyme that pleased first to deny the reall presence had not one authority nor can produce any one at this day that expressely saith that Christs reall body is not in the Sacrament or that yt is only a figure signe or token therof though diuers impertinent peeces of some Fathers speaches they will now and then pretend to alleage so on the coÌ„trary side the Catholiks do behould for their comfort the whole ranks of ancient Fathers through euery age standinge with them in this vndoubted truth Yea not only affirming the same reall presence in most cleere and perspicuous words wherof yow may see whole books in Catholike wryters replenished with Fathers authorityes laid togeather out of euery age from Christ downe wards but that which is much more yeldinge reasons endeauoring to proue the same by manifest arguments theologicall demonstrations vsing therin such manner of speach and words as cannot possibly agree vnto the Protestants communion of bare bread and wyne with their symbolicall signification or representation only As for example where the Fathers do shew how Christs true flesh commeth to be in this SacrameÌ„t videlicet by the true conuersion of bread into his body and by that this body is made of bread and by that the substances of breat and vvyne be changed and other like speaches as may be seene in S. Ambrose 4. de Sacram. cap. 5. lib. 6. cap. 1. lib. de myst init cap. 9. Cypr. Serm. de Coena Chrysost. hom 83. in Matth. de proditione Iudae Cyrill Catec 4. Mystag Nissenus orat Catech. 37. and others 18. Secondly yt is an ordinary speach of the Fathers to cry out admyre the miracle that happeneth by the conuersion in this Sacrament ascribinge the same to the supreme omnipotencv of almighty God as yow may see in S. Chrysostome l. 3. de sacerdotio O miraculum c. S. Ambrose lib. 4. de Sacram. cap. 4. Iustinus Martyr Apolog. 2. sayinge that by the same omnipotency of God vvherby the vvord vvas made flesh the flesh of the vvord vvas made to be in the Eucharist which agreeth not to a Caluinian communion 19. Thirdly some of them do extoll and magnifie the exceeding loue charity of Christ towards vs aboue all other humane loue in that he feedeth vs with his owne flesh which no shephards did euer their sheepe or mothers their children which is the frequent speach of S. Chrysostome hom 83. in Matth. 45. in Ioan. hom 24. in ep 1. ad Cor. 2. homil 60. 61. ad Pop. Antioch And to the same effect S. Augustine ep 120. cap. 27. in Psal. 33. which speaches can no wayes agree to the Protestants supper 20. Fourthly diuers of the said Fathers do expressely teach that we do receaue Christ in the Sacrament not only by faith but truly really and corporally semetipsum nobis commiscet saith S. Chrysostome non side tantum sed reipsa Christ doth ioyne himselfe with vs in the Sacrament not only by faith but really And â—n another place he putteth this antithesis or opposition betwixt vs and the Magi that saw and beleeued in Christ lyinge in the manger that they could not carry him with them as we do now by receauinge him in the Sacrament and yet no doubt they beleeued in him and carryed him in faith as we do now to which effect S. Cyrill Alexand. saith Corporaliter nobis filius vnitur vt homo spiritualiter vt Deus Christ as a man is vnited vnto vs corporally by the Sacrament and spiritually as he is God Whervnto yow may add S. Hilary lib. 8. de Trinitate and Theodorus in the Councell of Ephesutom 6. Appendic 5. cap. 2. and others 21. Fiftly the Fathers do many tymes and in diuers places and vpon sundry occasions go about to proue the truth of other mysteryes and articles of our faith by this miracle of the being of Christs flesh and body in the Sacrament as S. Irenaeus for example doth proue Christs Father to be the God of the old sestament for that in his creatures he hath left vs his body bloud and in the same place he vseth the same argument for establishinge the article of the resurrection of out bodyes to witt that he that vouch safeth to nowrish vs with his owne body and bloud will not lett our bodyes remayne for euer in death corruption S. Chrysostome in like manner by the truth of his reall presence in the Sacrament doth confute them that denyed Christ to haue taken true flesh of the Virgin Mary which hardly would be proued by the Sacramentary supper of bread and wyne as euery man by himselfe will consider 22. Sixtly to pretermitt all other points handled to this effect by the said Fathers as that diuers of them do exclude expressely the name of figure or similitude from this Sacrament as S. Ambrose lib. 4. de Sacram. cap. 1. Damasc lib. 4. cap. 4. 14. Theophilact in Matth. 26. Others yeld reasons why Christ in the Sacrament would be really vnder the formes or accidents of bread and wyne to witt that our faith might be proued and exercised therby the horror of eating flesh bloud in their owne forme shape taken away and so the same S. Ambrose Ibid. l. 4. de Sacram. c. 4. Cyrill in cap. 22. Luc. apud D. Thom. in catena Others do persuade vs not to beleeue our senses that see only bread and wyne wherof we shall speake more in the obseruations following so S. Augustine serm de verbis Apost l. 3. de Trinit cap. 10. Others do proue this reall presence by the sacrifice affirminge the selfe same Christ to be offered now in our dayly sacrifice vpon the Altars of Christians after an vnbloudy manner which was offered once bloudely vpon the
Altar of the Crosse as more largely shal be shewed so S. Chrysostome hom 17. ad Haebr 2. â—â— 2. ad Tim. Greg. lib. 4. dial c. 58. Nissenus orat 1. â—â— pascha c. All these considerations I say and many others that may be taken out of the Fathers wrytinges I do for breuityes sake lett passe in this place though most euidently they do declare the said Fathers plaine meaninge and beleefe in this article and cannot any way be applyed to the new Communion of Protestants but by manifest impropriety and deâ—ortion 23. And therfore I will end only with one consideration more very ordinary with the said Fathers which is the diuine reuerence honour and adoration that in all ages the said Fathers haue giuen vnto the blessed SacrameÌ„t whose authorityes were ouerlong heere to recyte in particular The sayinge of S. Austen is knowne Nemo manducat nisi prius adorauerit no man eateth the Sacrament but first adoreth the same and S. Chrysostome Adora manduca adore yt and receaue yt And Theodoret to the same effect Et creduntur adorantur quòd easint quae creduntur They are beleeued and adored the flesh and bloud of Christ for that they are in deed the things they are beleeued to be And to speake nothinge of many other Fathers sayings to this effect S. Chrysostome his large discourses about this matter may serue for all who wryteth that at the tyme of consecration and sacrifice the very Angells come downe and vvith tremblinge do adore Christ their Lord therin present vvhich he vvould neuer haue vvrytten yâ— bread and wyne were only there present 24. By all these wayes meanes then may easily be seene what the auncient Fathers in their ages did thinke speake and beleeue of this high admirable mistery of Christs real presence in the Sacrament And albeit ther were no Councells about this matter for the space of a thousand yeares after Christ the cause therof was that in all that space no on man euer openly contradicted the same atleast after the tyme of S. Ignatius vntill Berengaâ—rius for yf any man had done yt we may seâ— by the foresaid Fathers speaches who must haue byn the chiefe in these Councells what their determination would haue byn against them and when the said Berengarius had once broached this Sacramentary heresy the whole Christian world rose vp presently against the same as against a blasphemous nouelty and ten seuerall Councells condemned the same as in the former Chapter hath byn declared 25. Wherfore the Catholikes hauinge with them all these warrants of truth by scriptures fathers councells tradition of antiquity vniforme consent of all Christian nations both Greeke Latyn Asian African other countreyes embracing the name faith of Christ and that no beginninge or entrance can be shewed of this doctrine in the said Church nor any contradiction against yt when yt first entred as on the coÌ„trary side the first of spring of the other togeather with the place author tyme manner occasion resistance condemnation and other like circumstances are and may be authentically shewed prooued and conuinced yea that the very face of Christendome from tyme out of mynd by their â—hurches altars offerings adoration and manner of diuine seruice admittted euery where without contradiction doubt or question do testifie the same the truth moreouer therof being confirmed by so infinite conâ—ourse of manifest miracles recorded by such authors as no man with piety can doubt of their creditt the Catholiks I say hauinge all his mayne cloud of wittnesses to vse the Apostles â—ords for the testimony of this truth and being practized and accustomed in the beleefe â—â—erof for so many ages togeather without â—â—terruption and seing moreouer that Luther â—â—mselfe and all the learned of his side that were open professed enemyes in other things to the Catholike beleefe yet in this protested the truth to be so euident as they durst not impugne it nay held the first impugners therof for damnable heretiks addinge also heerevnto that Zuinglius the first chiefe author confesseth himselfe to haue byn moued thervnto by a certayne extrauagant spiritt which he saith he knew not whether yt was blacke or white All these things I say laid togeather and the liues and manners considered of them that haue held the one the other faith that is to say the infinite Saints of the one side whome the Protestants themselues do not deny to haue byn Saints and the qualityes and conditions of the others that first began or since haue defended the new Sacramentary opinions lett the discreet reader iudge whether the Catholiks of England had reason to stand fast in their old beleefe against the innouations of our new Sacramentary Protestants in K. Edwards dayes And the like shall yow see in the other articles that ensue of Transubstantiation and Sacrifice dependinge of this first of the reall presence as before yow haue heard But much more will yow be confirmed in all this when yow shall haue read ouer the disputations followinge and seene the triflinge arguments of the Sacramentaryes in these so weighty important articles of our beleefe and the ridiculous euasions where with they seeke to auovd or delude the graue tistimonyes of scriptures and Fathers before mentioned For therby wil be seene that they seeke not truth in deed with a good and sincere conscience feare of Gods iudgements but only to escape and entertayne talke for continuaunce of their faction which ought to be marked by the reader yf he loue his soule And thus much for the grounds of the reall-presence Groundes of Transubstantiation §. 2. 26. Touchinge the second question about Transubstantiation though yt be lesse principall then the former of the reall-presence for that yt conteyneth but the particular manner how Christ is really in the Sacrament consequently not so necessary to be disputed of with Sacramentaryes that deny Christ to be there really at all as before hath byn noted â—et shall we briefely discouer the principall â—rounds wheron Catholiks do stand in this â—eceaued doctrine of the Church against Lutherans especially who grauntinge the said â—â—all presence do hold that bread is there togeather with our Sauiours body which Catholiks for many reasons do hould to be absurd â—nd albeit the word Transubstantiation particular declaration therof was not so expresseâ— sett downe in the Church vntill some 400. â—cares gone in the generall Councell of Lateran vnder Pope Innocentius the third as the word Trinity Homousion or Consubstantiality and cleere exposition therof was not vntill the Councell of Nice 300. yeares after Christ yet was the truth of this doctrine held euer before in effect and substance though in different words to witt mutation transinutation conuersion of bread into the body of Christ transelementation and the like which is proued by the perpetuall consent of doctrine vttered by the ancient Fathers in this
of any moment and so ended that dayes disputation The next day he returned againe and would haue made a longe declamation against the reall presence but being restrayned he fell into such a rage and passion as twise the prolocutor said he was fitter for Bedlam then for disputation 37. After Philpott stood vp Maister Cheney Archdeacon of Hereford another of the six which did contradict the masse and reall presence in the Conuocation-house who was after made B. of Glocester being that tyme perhapps inclyned to Zuinglianisme though afterward he turned and became a Lutheran and so lyued and died in the late Queenes dayes There is extant to this man an eloquent epistle in Latyn of F. Edmund Campian who vnhappily had byn made Deacon by him but now being made a Catholike exhorted the Bishopp to leaue that whole ministry This mans argument against the reall presence being taken out of the common obiections of Catholike wryters and schoole-men was this that for so much as it is cleare by experience that by eatinge consecrated hosts for example a man may be nourished and that neyther Christs body nor the accidents and formes alone can be said to norish ergo besides these two there must be some other substance that nourisheth which seemeth can be no other but bread And the like argument may be made of consecrated wyne that also nourisheth And further in like manner he argued concerninge consecrated bread burned to ashes demaundinge wherof that is to say of what substance these ashes were made for so much as we hould no substance of bread to be therin and Fox would make vs beleeue that all the Catholiks there present could not aunswere that doubt and amongest others he saith of Doctor Harpesfield Then vvas Maister Harpesfield called in to see vvhat he could say in the matter vvho tould a fayre tale of the omnipotency of almighty God But Fox vnderstood not what Doctor Harpesfield said in that behalfe as may easily appeare by his fond relatinge therof We haue sett downe the aunswere to these and like obiections before in the 7. and 10. Obseruations and yt consisteth in this that in these naturall actions and substantiall changes of nutrition and generation wherin not only accidents are altered but new substances also are produced consequently according to nature that operation doth require not only accidents but also substantiall matter wherof to be produced God by his omnipotency doth supply that matter which is necessary to the new production of that substance eyther by nutrition or generation 38. And albeit the vnbeleefe of heretiks doth not reach to comprehend and acknowledge that God should do a myracle or action aboue nature euery tyme that this happeneth out yet can they not deny yt in other things As for example that euery tyme when any children are begotten throughout the world God immediatly createth new soules for them which needs must be thousands euery day yet none of our sectaryes will deny or scoffe at this or hold yt for absurd the like may be said of all the supernaturall effectes benefites which God bestoeth dayly hourly vpon vs in the Sacraments or otherwise 39. There remayne only some few places out of the Fathers to be explaned which were obiected in this article partly by Maister Grindall against Doctor Glyn and partly also by Peter Martyr in the end of his Oxford-disputation but related by Fox in the question of Transubstantiation not of the reall-presence though properly they appertayne to this as now yow will see The first place is out of Tertullian against Marcion the heretike where he hath these words saith Fox This is my body that is to say this is the signe of my body Whervnto I answere that Fox dealeth heere like a Fox in cytinge these words so cuttedly for that Tertullian in this very place as in many others doth most effectually not only say but proue also that bread is turned into Christs true body after the words of consecration and so do the Magdeburgians affirme expressely of him his words are these Christ takinge bread and distributinge the same vnto his disciples made yt his body sayinge this is my body that is the figure of my body and immediatly followeth Figura autem non fuisset nisi veritatis esset corpus but yt had not byn the figure of Christs body yf his body had not byn a true body or truly their present In which words Tertullian affirmeth two things yf yow marke him First that Christ made bread his true body then that bread had byn a figure of his body in the old Testament which could not be yf his body were not a true body but a phantasticall body as Marcion did wickedly teach for that a phantasticall body hath no figure And this much for the true literall sense of Tertullian in this place who goinge about to shew that Christ did fullfill all the figures of the old Testament consequently was sonne of the God of the old Testament which Marcionists did deny fullfilled also the figure wherin bread presignified his true body to come by makinge bread his body sayinge this bread that was the figure of my body in the old Testament is now my true body in the new and so doth the truth succeed the figure And this to be the true literall sense and scope of Tertullian in this place as before I haue said euery man may see plainly that will read the place 40. The other places are taken out of diuers other Fathers who some tymes do call the Sacrament a figure or signe representation or similitude of Christs body death passion bloud as S. Augustine in Psalm 2. Christ gaue a figure of his body and lib. cont Adamant cap. 12. he did not doubt to say this is my body when he gaue a figure of his body And S. Hierome Christ represented vnto vs his body And S. Ambrose lib. 4. de Sacram. cap. 4. As thou hast receaued the similitude of his death so drinkest thou the similitude of his pretious bloud These places I say and some other the like that may be obiected are to be vnderstood in the like sense as those places of Saint Paul are wherin Christ is called by him a figure Figura substantiae Patris A figure of the substance of his Father Heb. 1. And againe Imago Dei An Image of God Colloss 1. And further yet Habitu inuentus vt homo Appearinge in the likenes of a man Philipp 2. All which places as they do not take from Christ that he was the true substance of his Father or true God or true man in deed though out of euery one of these places some particular heresies haue byn framed by auncient heretiks against his diuinity or humanity so do not the forsaid phrases sometymes vsed by the auncient Fathers callinge the Sacrament a figure signe representation or similitude of Christs body exclude the truth or reality therof for