your Proposition in your last declared Sense to be true But then I say of your Assumption No Church hath remayned visible but the Church of Rome that it hath the same fallacie in it which I opened and refelled at length in the same Assumption of Continuance For if by the Church of Rome you meane the cōmon bodie of the whole visible Church albeit even affected with the over-going Evill on which for more effectual deceit tyrannicallie the name of the beast sitting there-in was by him imposed then is your Assumption sophisticallie deceitfull in reasoning A dici from So called ad esse to So is and concluding from the Bodie absolutelie to the Gangrene or Sore in it or contrary-wayes from the Evill in the Bodie to the Bodie affected there-with in common but not vniversallie as before I showed And vpon your Assumption thus vnderstood your Conclusion will not follow But if by the Church of Rome your Assumption meaneth the Evill and Sore agaynst which onlie it is that wee pleade and not agaynst the common Bodie where-of wee are then is it manifestlie false and so your Conclusion fayleth Philomathes But except you cleare to mee how in that Bodie besides that which you doe call the over-going Sore there were some visible partes brooking Health and that visiblie I must still thinke that your subtill Distinction of the Bodie from the Sore is but vayne For I pray you for manie Ages who were seene or knowne to haue anie differing Profession or to haue resisted and condemned the Church of Rome Eubulus Now consider Philomathes how aequitablie you requyre that of mee For first How-so-ever it may be easilie seene and showne in a Bodie but contracting a Disease whyle as yet all Members are not much infected or affected there-with or agayne in a Bodie convalescing whyle eyther all the Bodie is al-most freed from the Sicknesse or at least the strongest and noblest partes haue expelled the Disease al-be-it perhaps the D◅egges there-of rest a space in the extremities of Handes or Feete and keepe them swollen Yet Philomathes it shall bee hardlie showne in a Bodie in the prevayling height and mayne Fit of the Sicknesse when it hath so farre obtayned as all parts of that Bodie in common are eyther infected or at least heavilie affected yea and even much afflicted there-by so as no part can bee separablie showne brooking a-part perfect health without eyther Infection or Affection And yet even in such a Case a Skilfull man beholding and considering will perceiue evidentlie that it is a living al-be-it a sick Bodie yea that such Strength of naturall Vigour yet remayneth there-in al-be-it no-where vnaffected which both resisteth the wasting Disease even in the verie Paroxisme and in ende by prevailing vitall power helpe of right Medicine expelleth it For as in such a Bodie if no remnant were of vitall Vigour all Sense and Motion should be quyte extinguished So in a Bodie totallie affected afflicted al-be-it not vniversallie infected it were a monstrous vnnatural thing in such a Case to see anie part of the Bodie a-part no-thing affected al-be-it there will even in that Bodie be parts not infected where-in as in a citadle lyfe health residing they frō thence both fight against the over-going Evill at last become victorious over it Of the Church of Sardis it it said That having a name that she lived yet she was dead not-with-standing is exhorted to strengthen the parts which remayned and were readie to die And even in this miserable Case the LORD witnesseth That even there Hee had a few names which had not defiled their garments these yet stil lived in the cōmuniō of that same Church were not known by any visible separation frō the rest of that Bodie For separation is neither requisite nor lawfull till all hope of Cure be past And thus neither were the faithfull ones vnder Antichristian tyrannie till after long tolleration much heavinesse for the waxing Evill at last labouring to haue cured it they were cruelly murdered lay barbarously vnburied insolentlie mocked in the streetes of Babell which neither would nor could be cured And then leaving her as a burnt Mountayne being by divine warrand commanded to Come vp hither they did separate themselues not frō the Church but frō the Contagions and incurable Evill in the Church but not of it For wee would faine haue cured Babell but shee would not Next Philomathes how-so-ever lightened men each in their owne times even in most desperate state condition both might and did see some pure remnant which were well knowne to the godly then yet how absurdlie is anie account of them required of succeeding Ages to whose knowledge through repressing and suppressing tyrannie of such as disposed of all Records at their pleasure nothing did come but what obtained commonlie in that tyme In despite of all which not-with-standing so much testimonie hath remained as may satisfie and certifie anie vpright mynde That still Trueth was in the Church in all Ages had its owne Assertours al-be-it not all in a lyke degree of contestation even in most corrupt tymes as the Gatalogues of them drawne vp by our Men for meeting this your Objection make manifest if you please with an vnpartiall Heart to reade them More-over heere agayne Philomathes you stumble at a double Deceit in the word VISIBLE in that not onlie you conclude That what-so-ever is visible is al-so seene but there-with al-so vpon no open resisting you inferre no being most absurdlie All men know that from Tolleration to Approbation you can never stablish a Conclusion Manie will and for manie Respects tollerate that which they are so farre from approoving as they will vtterlie abhorre it And to keepe our former similitude how manie haue you seene subject to great and dangerous Diseases and having their Bodies repleat with vicious Humours who yet whyle they could retayne anie reasonable condition of Health would not adventure to mooue the Bodie by expelling with perilous Medicaments the nociue Humours The Church of Pergamus tollerated what shee neyther approoved nor communicated there-with but lurked even where Satan's Throne was keeping the Name of GOD who knew her Dwelling and Case Physicians come not to Burning and Cutting till the Evill bee not onelie desperate but al-so that the Lyfe of the Bodie is in danger there-by Your Romish Evill Philomathes did growe on slowlie and by Degrees and came not to the toppe of Impietie at once so as the Degrees of Contestation in difference of tyme and diverse degrees of a waxing Evill behooved to bee much diverse And neyther could the Case admit or was it the LORD His will that Contestation should bee in the highest degree till the Impietie came to the highest though even in the Growth and subtill Successe of that Mysterie of Iniquitie manie both mislyked it and mourned for it keeping them-selues the Name of GOD and vttering in their owne
you must answere to these Questions Eubulus By a Sonnet one may verie convenientlie giue sentence of a Song and Philadelpbus will but let you see Eriphilus that wee are not so farre borne in despite of all the Muses but that wee could render you as compact Verses as anie your proper Ballad hath in it Yet let it bee as you desire wee will leaue Sonnets a little and come to Syllogismes Philomathes reade on Philomathes Gladlie Thus then hee beginneth I pray thee Protestant beare with mee To aske thee Questions two or three And if an answere thou canst make More of thy counsell I will take Manie and sundrie Sects appeare Now in the Worlde farre and neare The Protestant the Puritane The Calvinist the Zvvingliane The Brovvnists and the Fam'lie of Loue And manie moe which I can prooue And the Romane Fayth truelie Which you doe call Papistrie All these in verie deede Rehearse all Articles in the Creede And ev'rie one of them sayth That their's is the Catholicke Fayth How should I amongst all these Know the Trueth from feigned Lies For ev'rie one confesse IESU Saying that their Faith is true But this is it that I doe seeke To know the Church Catholicke The Communion or the companie Of bolie Men in vnitie Eubulus This hath beene the Question which in all times perverse and ignorant men haue pretended for them as is cleare by these wordes of Chrysostome Homil. 33. in Act. Tom. 3. The Heathen man sayeth I would bee a Christian but I know not to whom I should cleane Manie Debates are amongst you I know not what Doctrine to choose seeing on both sides they pretende Scripture Answere him This maketh much for vs For if wee did say that our Fayth were grounded vpon naturall reasons thou hadst reason to bee troubled but when wee betake vs to the Scriptures which are playne and true thou mayest easilie discerne If anie man agree with Them hee is a Christian and who so oppugneth Them hee is farre from this Rule This same Chrysostome in 2. ad Thessal 2. All things are cleare and playne in divine Scriptures what-so-ever thinges are necessarie are manifest in them Agayne the same Chrysostome in Ioann cap. 10. Homil. 58. The Scriptures leade vs to GOD and open to vs the knowledge of Him they both make and keepe the Sheepe neyther suffer they Wolâ—…es to breake in For as a most strong Doore they debarre Heretickes and place the Godlie in suretie Neyther so beeing wee bee willing shall they ever suffer vs to fall away in Errour Now al-be-it I well might for all answere oppose to your Poet these Passages yet lest you complayne Philomathes that I passe him too slenderlie I take vp the summe of your Man his mayne Question to bee this Amongst so manie diverse Sects all rehearsing the common Creed and each acclayming the Title of the Church hovve and by what Marks we may discerne the true Church of CHRIST from such as falselie doe vsurpe that Title Philomathes You haue exceeding well taken vp the state of the Question And I pray you is it not a necessarie Question and worthie of a carefull consideration Eubulus Yea verilie but in proponing where-of and in answering there-to your Questioneâ—… bewrayeth either want of Care or want of Skill or which is worse want of Conscience For if hee could prooue moe Sectes than hee proponeth as both hee professeth and I confesse hee might why would hee not rather produce them than for malicious vp-making of a number where no number is make them diverse who are but one For everie difference of Opinion maketh not a diverse Sect much lesse doe diverse names of men who disagree in no materiall point Philadelphus You miss-take the matter Eubulus it is not maliciouslie done of him but for Metres sake to make vp his Verses which other-wayes would not haue runne well Eubulus Well this is his least al-be-it even a lourd-Errour But next Philomathes for resolution of his Question if hee had not willinglie set him-selfe to wander out of a right and plaine way so to draw others after him in the darke Mist of drumblie Disputations hee might haue taken the onlie sure and infallible Marke from CHRIST His owne Mouth Who as hee is the onelie LORD of the House great Shepheard of the Sheepe and Bridegroome of the Bryde so can Hee best of anie leade vs to know them rightlie Philomathes That must bee of all other the most certaine Note and I long to heare it Eubulus CHRIST giveth His Sheepe this Marke That they know the voyce of the great Shepheard and follow it and that they will not follow the voyce of a Stranger for they know it not Where-by that is vndoubtedlie the true Church where the voyce of CHRIST and His voyce onelie is purelie preached and religiouslie received If anie man loue Mee bee will keepe My Word and My Father will loue him and Wee will come to him and will dwell with him Hee that loveth Mee not keepeth not My Wordes c. Philomathes This is most true but the Question remaineth still as doubtfull as before for what-so-ever Companie doeth acclaime to it selfe the Title of the Church they no lesse boldlie affirme that they doe heare the voyce of CHRIST so as you haue but cast vs in a new dispute what iâ—… CHRIST His voyce which his true Sheepe doe heare and by hearing where-of they may bee discerned to bee of His Sheepe-folde Eubulus Neyther CHRIST nor His Apostles nor the succeeding Orthodox Fathers haue left place to make question heere-of to anie who wilfullie winketh not for Hee hath left vs His holie Scriptures and commandeth to search them for a Witnesse of Him Now the way to know Him and to know His true Church which is his fulnesse must of necessitie bee one More-over that which maketh the man of GOD wise absolute and perfect to everie good worke must make him wise to discerne the true Church also But the Scriptures make the man of GOD wise absolute and perfect to everie good worke therefore they make him wise to discerne the true Church also So then the Scriptures are CHRIST His voyce and they onlie are now to bee helde for His voyce for In vaine doe men worship sayeth the LORD teaching for Doctrines the Traditions of men And when-so-ever anie Church falleth to heare anie other Voyce or follow anie other Speaker then Shee looketh aside to the Flockes of his Companions and of a faithfull Citie beginneth to become an Harlor And as Ierome pertinentlie speaketh Egredietur è finibus suis Shee transgresseth her owne Limits Your men Philomathes darken all disputation by deceit of Aequivocations and confounding of distinct Considerations and Cases It is a much different thing to discerne the Church of CHRIST in common from Infidels Forraigners And againe in that communitie of the Church to discerne betwixt the true worshippers and the false betwixt the
vnder Sense and so can bee no Marke at all Sophisticall for that of that which we confesse to be a true Attribute of the Church hee would conclude a discerning Marke But all Attributes are not Markes Now Eriphilus refell mine Argument or graunt mee I pray you some respite from burning for without merite you haue al-readie burned too manie vpon humour Philadelphus You could not away Eriphilus with my Sonnets but as I thinke Eubulus Syllogismes are no lesse pricking Philomathes But I pray you Eubulus how-so-ever your Reasons are subtill and I can not denye but builded vpon confessed Grounds and how-so-ever that Catholicke is an Attribute as you call it of the Church is apprehended by Fayth yet seeing that the moste approoved Fathers in their Disputations agaynst the Heretickes of their tymes doe presse them sore with the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church which they ordinarilie oppose vnto them it would appeare that they had some reason to doe so and that even Vniversalitie is in some respect a Marke of the true Church Neyther see I howe you can disapprooue our Mens Argument agaynst you brought from this Note except you will condemne those Famous and Auncient Fathers also as having vaynlie and sophisticallie reasoned for the Trueth Eubulus To cleare you Philomathes of all doubt heerein and to free our selues from anie eyther conscience of our owne guiltinesse where-fore we would reject this Reason or of anie vnreverend Opinion of those Fathers who as you truelie affirme in some Cases and Respectes did vse it the aequivocation of this word Catholicke must be opened vp where-by your Doctours willinglie illude and where-by your simple ones are vnwittinglie deceived For the Catholicke Church is of the Fathers so called eyther properlie and absolutelie or improperlie and but in some speciall Respect and Relation Absolutelie and most properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole number of what-so-ever tyme or place who haue beene are or shall bee vnited vnto CHRIST their Head and liue in Him by His Spirit whether heere on Earth fighting or hence in Heaven triumphing Absolutelie and lesse properlie the Catholicke Church is the whole militant companie heere on Earth of what-so-ever Kinred Tongue or Nation vnder one and the same common Ensigne of Christian Profession whether Hypocrites or true Professours whether pure or corrupt Worshippers whether Orthodox or Hereticall as even Bellarmine argueth Cap. 7. De Notis Eccles. In anie of which Cases shee is believed and in her Vniversalitie falleth not vnder Sense Improperlie agayne and in opposite Relation the Church is called CATHOLICKE for two Respects The one In opposite Relation to the Church of the Iewes which was limited within the compasse of one People and of one Region the Christian Church no more so confined but spread indifferentlie over all is called the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH Neyther thus because that eyther al-wayes all Peoples Vniversallie or moste parte of Men embrace the Gospell but because the Entrie is opened and offered indifferentlie vnto all The other Respect was the opposite Relation to hereticall Companies separating them-selues by Errour from the common Bodie of the Church Trueth mayntayned there-in And in this last Respect it is that al-most the Fathers cōmonlie speak of it calling the Cōmunitie of the Visible Church retayning Trueth in relation to particular hereticall Companies the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH And in this Sense opposing ordinarilie to arrogant men the Authoritie Multitude Consent Succession c. of the Catholicke Church as you haue alleadged Philomathes But in this manner of the Fathers reasoning two things are carefullie to bee marked whereby the Fathers shall bee found both pertinentlie and prudentlie to haue vsed this Argument where by your men now shall bee seene evidentlie and impudentlie to abuse it The first is that state and condition of the Church wherein this Argument hath place according as it was when the Fathers vsed it The second is what weight or moment the Fathers placed in it The state of the Church then was in common pure holding Trueth and by the force thereof purging or expelling all in-bred or accressing evils or Heresies So as then though by an improper Speach yet the Communalitie of the Church keeping Trueth in relation to a few Declyners might not impertinentlie bee called the Catholicke Church and her authoritie might well haue beene opposed vnto them But who in a plaine contrarie state and condition of the Church when Errour obtaineth in common and Trueth is afflicted and borne downe yet without consideration of the altered State and Condition would still vse the same reason from Multitude and what-so-ever or how-so-ever an obtaining State hee were a ridiculous Sophister confounding diverse and distinct times and cases To reason from the state of the Church in Ephesus where-in evill was not tollerated to the state of the Church in Smirna where-in Heretickes waxed prowde and despysed the abject state of true Professours it were sophisticall but much more sophisticall to reason from the state in Ephesus to the state in Pergamus when the true Church dwelt even where Satan's Throne was knowne to GOD though hid from the worldlie sort To reason from the Woman cloathed with the Sunne treading the Moone and crowned with twelue Starres to the same Woman lurking in the Wildernesse it concludeth not for as in the first Case the Fathers had reason and did wyselie to convince by all Advantages so whyle the Case is clearlie altered according as by Scripture was fore-tolde and Antichrist hath obtayned a Throne even in the Temple when the Evill or Gangrene in the bodie and having even over-gone the Bodie in common will contende agaynst the healthsome remnant then are wee both to leaue improper Speaches and wyselie to distinguish deceitfullie-confounded Tymes and Cases and properlie to pleade That the Gangrene in the Bodie and even affecting and over-going the Bodie in common yet is but an Adherent or accressing Evill in but not of the Bodie and That the healthsome remnant retayning the Lyfe of the Head and by vertue there-of resisting the over-going Gangrene is the true Catholicke Church And this altered Condition of Tyme and of the Church in tyme which maketh the Argument some-tyme pertinentlie vsed to bee nowe ridiculous besides that both SCRIPTVRE hath fore-tolde it the FATHERS did see the working on of it and wee haue aboundantlie often prooved and still offer to prooue it It is cleare also by that other Poynt which I propounded to bee observed in this reasoning of the FATHERS namelie What Weyght or Moment they placed in that same Argument VVhere-in they even professe That they vsed it not as an infallible demonstratiue Marke but as a Motiue vvhich beeing joyned with cleare TRVETH was worthie to bee regarded but which eyther without TRVETH or agaynst TRVETH should carrie no Credite This is evident by Augustine vsing this same Argument agaynst Faustus Manichaeus and opposing the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church Multitude Antiquitie Succession c.
to his bare bragging of the TRVETH Which TRVETH not-with-standing sayeth that Father if you can show so clearlie as it can not bee gayne-sayde it is to bee praeferred to all these thinges where-by I am holden within the Catholicke Church If the name of the Catholicke Church were in this place properlie to bee taken then should Augustine's supposed Case be ridiculous For Trueth can never be found any-where els but within the Catholicke Church taken properlie Where-by it is cleare that the Catholicke Church in this and such other places is taken for the Communalitie of the visible Church which having Trueth should bee regarded But to whose Authoritie not the lesse the cleare Trueth found with never so few Holders is to bee preferred For Wee ought not to consent no not to Catholicke Bishops sayeth the same Father if they holde anie Opinion contrarie to Canonicke Scriptures Where-by is manifest both in what Sense the Fathers reasoned from the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and what force they placed in that Argument and that how-so-ever by them and in that tyme and case of a Church it was not inconvenientlie vsed yet that now in so farre different a state still to vsurpe it in a lyke manner were extreame impudencie This Chrysostome did both fore-see and gaue warning of it that the altered state of the Church behooved to bring men to a more neare and proper Rule of Examination as in his Testimonies aboue cited is cleare In that how-so-ever before that Heresie obtayned place in the Church and the abhomination of desolation stood also in sanctis Ecclesiae locis in the holie places of the Church manie wayes were to discerne the Church as while Trueth helde place in common was Vniversalitie improperlie taken Multitude Consent Succession c yet now after that hereticall contagion hath infected the Bodie in common no manner of way is to discerne the true Church amidst the corrupted communitie of the Church but onlie the Scriptures You are greatlie deceived Philomathes if you esteeme the Church therefore to bee called CATHOLICKE eyther because al-wayes the moste parte of men shall come in to her and embrace the Profession or yet That of such as come in to her the moste parte shall al-wayes holde the Trueth But Shee is CATHOLICKE because her Gates that are nowe casten open to all Kinreds Tongues and Nations that the righteous Nation may enter in And how-so-ever that neyther most part come in neyther of such as are in her is the most part of her or saved yet all vniversallie who are saved must both bee in her and of her And how-so-ever in her most part keepe not Trueth yet no Trueth is but in her If as your Men are al-readie perceiving and there-vpon are gnawing their Tongues for sorrowe the Trueth preached by vs take in short tyme such successe as the Waters of your Euphrates shall be dryed vp and if Multitude and Consent of Nations shall bee with vs will you there-fore yeelde vs the Title of the Catholicke Church If multitude of Holders bee al-wayes a sure Marke of the true Church how sayeth the Scripture That All shall follow the Beast And you confesse That Antichrist when hee commeth shall obtayne Vniversallie Now if in Antichrist his vsurpation Vniversalitie shall bee no Note of the Church how see you not That verie vnjustlie you lay it al-wayes agaynst vs and That what-so-ever Vniversalitie you can alleadge for your Pope it exeemeth him not from beeing that Antichrist except hee cleare him-selfe by better Defences Thus I hope I haue cleared That wee neyther disprooue the Fathers reasoning agaynst Heretickes in opposing to them the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church and yet that you haue not there-fore anie eyther Right in their Argument or Ground there-vpon to make CATHOLICKE a discerning Marke of the Church So as your man's mayne Proposition so farre as concerneth this Note of Vniversalitie is still sophisticall and vayne But nowe if it were even a discerning Marke as your Men would make it yet let vs trye howe justlie your Church doeth vindicate it to her selfe and let vs examine your Man's mayne Assumption in that part Philadelphus As you haue dressed his Proposition in that part I thinke all labour agaynst his Assumption were ydle For if CATHOLICKE can bee no discerning Marke of the Church no not anie Marke at all as you haue at length and evidentlie evinced how can it bee Romes Marke Eubulus Yet Philadelphus I will omit no-thing where-by I may possiblie induce Eriphilus to take more of my counsell But in refelling this your Man's Assumption of his mayne Argument where-by hee appropriateth to Rome the Title of the Catholicke Church I must protest Eriphilus that it bee no praejudice to my matter that you doe so confidentlie call your selues Catholickes and your Companie the Catholicke Church else if you will haue this your vsurping of that name to carrie anie weight and that therefore you will haue vs to account so of you I desire of you the same aequitablenesse in our Case That because wee both esteeme and call our selues The Catholicke Church and Catholicke Men that therefore you will holde vs for such Or if you consider that an Argument à dici ad esse concludeth not and that there-fore pertinentlie the Logicians place before their Categories the Distinction 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of thinges that are sayde and of thinges that are Then let vs lay aside what eyther you of your selues or wee of our selues doe partiallie speake or arrogantlie arrogate and let vs trye what is true of vs both Philomathes Your Protestation is most aequitable For a bare Clayme except it bee instructed can make no Title Eubulus Then Philomathes in that part of your Poet's Ryme which is inscrybed CATHOLICKE and which you did lastlie reade besides the Proposition which I haue refelled hee assumeth That the Note of Catholicke or Vniversalitie conveaneth properlie to the Church of Rome Which false Assumption hee seeketh to sustayne by foure Reasons the first of which hee concludeth thus What Companie did take in hand and accordinglie first performed the publishing of the Gospell thorow the Worlde and converted all Nations to the Fayth that must bee the Companie to which the Title of CATHOLICKE or VNIVERSALITIE properlie belongeth and that Companie is the Catholicke Church But the Church of Rome onlie did both vnder-take and performe this There-fore the Church of Rome is the Catholicke Church and to her properlie that Note belongeth Now heere some Poëticall inspiration hath transported your man to giue vs such whether a definition or description of Catholicke as till now none ever heard of Wee esteemed as I haue shewed that the Catholicke Church had beene that companie of what-so-ever Tyme Place or Nation which in the communion of one and the same Spirit joyned to their Head CHRIST doe make vp the fulnesse of His mysticall Bodie whether in the Heavens triumphing or as yet heere in their course fighting
but first in health healthsom vigour next by degrees contracting sicknes at length heavilie infected affected afflicted with that disease whereof you Eriphilus are dangerously sick Philomathes hath somwhat tasted also now is convalescing through the Medicine of the Word Spirit and alyke in all these cases was ever is visible seen also according to her distinct conditions in diverse tymes Neyther haue wee another Church or a new Church as your Doctors would perswade the Simple but the same Church a renewed Church Neither haue we forsaken the Vnitie Cōmunion of the Church within which wherof we stil are but we haue forsaken Babel in the Church which hath ◅firmed her selfe agaynst al Cure For howsoever the sicke Bodie was the Church yet the Sicknesse oppugning and wasting the lyfe there-of was never the Church and al-be-it in it yet never of it Now Eriphilus you see I am farre from dallying and am come to more playne Dealing than perhaps well pleaseth you Philomathes Verilie Eubulus I can not denye but your Reasons are sound and solide and your Distinctions are subtill But it seemeth exceeding strange that anie such Case and so long a tyme should haue befallen the Church of GOD which maketh mee yet to suspect that your Argumentes are more out of subtiltie of Logicke than according to the Veritie of the Matter and that how-so-ever they evince indeede clearlie a Possibilitie of such a Case yet that anie such Case in trueth was they will not conclude And it were a rash Conception so to thinke of holie Church So that according as I sayde before you seeme still to reason but A posse ad esse from Possibilitie to Reall existence which will not necessarilie follow Eubulus I confesse Philomathes that the Case is and will seeme strange to anie not acquaynted with the cleare course of Scripture and the LORD His wyse and wonderfull Dispensation clearlie fore-tolde there-in and fallen out accordinglie For the workes of GOD are wonderfull and Hee is marvelous in the Case of His Saynctes As great is the Mysterie of Godlinesse so al-so is that of Iniquitie And without true illumination to know the Scriptures of GOD none ever shall attayne eyther to the healthsome Knowledge of the one or happie Discoverie of the other But Philomathes seeing you confesse That I haue clearlie evinced the Possibilitie of such Apostasie in the Church as where-by Errour may take place in common and that yet not-with-standing GOD may verie well preserue Trueth and true and lawfull Worship and Worshippers al-be-it in common vnperceived and considering the manie and capitall Poyntes where-with so manie famous Churches now so long tyme charge your Church of Rome I aske you If in this Case you thinke her well defended with the pretended Impossibilitie of Erring Or if shee hath not great reason both to suspect what possiblie might befall her and carefullie to descende to an exact Tryall whether it hath so befallen her or not Philomathes Certaynlie I thinke the weyght of so great Poyntes as are in Controversie to-gether with the Challenge of so manie Churches requyre no lesse than that Matters bee condignlie tryed and examined and that a prowde Denyall will not justifie anie in such a Case Eubulus Well Philomathes and in so clearlie evinced a Possibilitie of Apostasie as requyreth a condigne Tryall whether thinke you is it the surest way to put the stable Trueth of GOD revealed in His Worde to this inaequitable and vnsure Condition as eyther to approoue it selfe by the Multitude and Continuance of Holders who yet may erre or then to bee rejected Or rather to laye for a sure Ground That seeing it is Trueth there-fore it ought to subdue all Myndes and take place agaynst all Praejudices of Praescription Praerogatiue of Holders Tymes Places or Persons Because it dependeth not on the vnstable Humours of Men who are but naturallie Liars and may bee deceived But is in it selfe so cleare as beeing admitted purelie to pleade for it selfe it will sufficientlie approoue and justifie it selfe agaynst all howe stronglie so-ever grounded Errour and all eyther Qualitie or Multitude of Mayntayners or Praescription of Tyme In short Philomathes whether ought the Trueth of GOD to bee subject to Men or ought all Men to bee subject vnto it And which of these two Reasons conclude strongest and on which may a Christian Soule best rest This hath long had place and Approbation with most Men and there-fore is the Trueth Or this is GOD His Trueth there-fore it ought to haue place even agaynst all praejudice what-so-ever And how-so-ever it hath appeared to haue beene perished from amongst Men yet certaynlie it hath remayned all-wayes Philomathes Verilie I can not denye but that it were a sacrilegious remeritie to subject the Trueth of GOD to Man al-be-it agayne in the Question what is that Trueth I thinke the judgement of the Church and what hath long bene held of Her should be much regarded and not rejected without great and verie cleare Reasons Eubulus That I yeeld you Philomathes and truelie if in the present Poynt of our Disputation we had or could bring no more but as you alleadged the Possibilitie of the case where-of no Evidence might bee produced that accordinglie it had fallen out And if my Reasons and Distinctions in this Matter were but from quirkes of Logicke and not according to clearelie-fore-tolde and accordinglie fallen-out Events you had the lesse reason to regard them But besides the Possibilitie which I haue evinced besides the vndoubted Trueth it selfe so clearlie delivered in Scripture as may sufficientlie certifie a Soule that accordinglie the Case hath fallen The holie Ghost for our farder Resolution hath also according to both the Possibilitie and the event in effect agreeable so clearlie fore-tolde the whole particular Case and Course as I may boldlie say to whom it appeareth strange They are yet great Strangers in the written Word of GOD and in such great measure of Light as now in GOD'S singular Mercie is revealed who disdayne to learne what even Artificers in such open and large offer of Grace are holden to know they are worthilie blynded in GOD'S just indignation Wee are not onlie fore-warned by the LORD Him-selfe in the dayes of His flesh and agreeablie there-after by the Apostle Paul of such a common Apostasie in the Church as where-by Antichrist should obtayne a Throne even in the Temple of GOD but also most amplie particularlie and delightfullie vnder most goodlie and significant Types in the Booke of the Revelation the whole course of Storie is plainlie and at length expressed So as Philomathes I haue not alleadged what probablie might be but what the holie GHOST hath playnlie and particulie fore-tolde and fore-warned vs should come to passe and which accordinglie wee see clearlie performed Yo◅ Men are deceived because they knowe neyther the ◅criptures nor the Power of GOD. And I am so farre from seeking subtill Evasions in
even by a deceitfull confounding of what-so-ever poyntes of Trueth and what-so-ever degrees of Division or Dissention which must bee wyselie and carefullie distinguished For there bee manie poynts of Trueth wherein diversitie of judgement breaketh not the Vnitie of the Church Yea and manie Divisions and Dissentions which yet divyde not the dissenting Members one from another or if one from another yet neyther of them from the Head or common Bodie from which those onlie may bee sayde absolutelie to fall which holde not the Head or subvert directlie and with pertinacie the Foundation For manie in weaknesse will holde Opinions which in-deede doe even choppe agaynst the Foundation by cleare and necessarie Consequence but not immediatelie or directlie So as if you should challenge the Holders of that which their opinion doth import they wil not only deny it but evē abhorre the sequele of that which they mayntayne but not with that mynde And it were great want of Charitie to judge a-lyke of these and of the others Wee are all heere still compassed with Infirmitie knowing but in part and prophecying but in part In which Case the Apostle charitablie advyseth That Who are perfect they bee so mynded and if anie bee other-wayes mynded that the LORD will reveale it vnto them but that in the tyme in that where-to wee are come wee ought to proceede by one Rule mynding the same thinges I confesse manie hundreths doe regrate it with Teares That the Infirmitie of Mens myndes too farre in selfe-wiening wedded to their owne Sense and not humblie receiving Information or charitablie comporting with weake Brethren according to the Apostle's Rule both hath bred and still breedeth too manie bitter and vnnecessarie Distractions and scandalous Schismes about such thinges as if Humilitie and Loue had over-ruled Mens Affections neyther were nor are of such Moment where-fore the Vnitie of Men holding still one and the same Head and keeping one and the same Foundation should bee so lightlie broken or the Peace of GOD His House troubled But the weaknesse and not duelie-mortified Humours of Men maketh not the Trueth of GOD to fayle That Dissentions and Divisions are it declareth Men to bee yet in that part carnall but it doeth not separate them from the common Bodie so long as they holde one and the same LORD one Fayth one Hope one Baptisme and are vnited in one and the same Spirit no more than did this Defect in the Church of Corinth which al-be-it that heere-fore the Apostle did rebuke as carnall in that yet hee still did intitle with the Name of CHRIST His Church And though by anie such Schisme eyther a Person or Companie should bee divided from particular eyther Church or Churches it will not therefore follow I thinke none dare avouch it that there-fore they are separated from the Head or common Bodie so to make them in a-lyke Case with haereticall Subverters of the Foundation and Deserters of the Head Wee see by Experience in naturall Bodies That by inflicted Woundes such Gaps will bee made as the sides of the Wound eyther from other will start a-sunder and so one part of the Bodie by a separating Wound will be severed from another part which both will yet remayne still vnited in the common Bodie and bee part-takers of one and the same common Sense Motion and Lyfe from one and the same Head and Heart Thus Philomathes your Poet's Proposition absolutelie affirmed is false even when hee hath modified his indefinite All Poynts to all Poynts of Trueth Philomathes That no Vnitie argueth anie Companie to bee CHRIST'S Church but Vnitie in Trueth I must needs confesse it and that everie diversitie of opinion or everie degree of Distraction doth not separate the dissenters or distracted mutuallie from other or at least eyther of them from the common Bodie and Head I cannot denye but that you haue evinced it clearlie Yet so manie and so materiall are the Divisions amongst your Churches and your Quarrels are debated so bitterlie and againe so great is the Harmonie and Concord of the Romish Church as I thinke giveth just Reason to suspect of you that you are not nor can not bee vnited as you spake in one and the same LORD Fayth Hope Baptisme and Spirit and that the Church of Rome hath onlie and evidentlie this Honour Eubulus Now Philomathes you put the Lyfe of your Syllogisme in the Hands of your Assumption to stand or fall there-with And denying vs anie such Vnitie as may argue a Church of CHRIST you haue appropriated all to Rome how justlie we will even now examine and first your Objection against vs is manie wayes sophisticall First if such bee accounted ours who are none of vs the imputation is vnjust Wee acknowledge and doe lament it that there is too great Division and varietie of Sects calling themselues Christians in the worlde but what doe most part of them more or so much concerne vs as they concerne your Church of Rome out of whose dongue as noysome Flees they are bred and by Satan's craft comming to fly on vpon our Churches that by the mixture of their Poyson they may bring the Trueth in disgrace are onlie by vs diligentlie resisted and their Errours clearlie convinced while in the meane tyme your Romish Church whose brood they are is carelesse of anie thing but to suppresse the Trueth and calumniouslie to lay over on vs the Stinke of their owne Excrements As for such whom we will not disadvow in common how-so-ever wee will not justifie the Ambition Giddinesse and bitternesse of some particular Men who as fyre-brands disturbe humurouslie and vnnecessarilie the Peace of the Church I affirme that no such materiall Poynts are in differ betwixt vs in common wherefore wee both may not and ought not embrace others mutuallie as Brethren Which that wee doe not it is our weaknesse and the malicious worke of but a few evil-inspired Instruments seeking more their owne Estimation than GOD his Glorie and good of His Church And that no such Separation is betwixt vs but that how-so-ever by a cruell Wound of mercilesse Hands wee are separated one of vs from another yet wee are still joyned in the common Head and in the common Bodie each of vs to other So as your Man 's odious enumeration of Protestants Puritanes Calvinists Zwinglians and if you list to adde to them Lutheranes also is but a calumnious traducing of such as most part are not separated eyther from other or at least how-so-ever by some weaknesse they bee in that sort distracted yet are but one Bodie joyned in one and the same LORD Fayth Hope Baptisme and informed all of them by one and the same Spirit al-be-it not all in a-lyke measure Amongst whom there is no just breach of Communion how-so-ever that by a Wound of some cruell and dispitefull Men those you doe call Lutherians are vnnecessarilie separated from the rest but none of vs from the common Head and Bodie in which
great Citie which spirituallie is called Sodome and Aegypt and then the VVhoore was drunken with the Blood of Saynctes and the Beast became whollie of the Dragon's Colour Nowe where vpon this That no opposition was made by them your Man concludeth That there-fore none at all were I pray you Philomathes what kynde of Logicke doe you account it Because in Spayne and Italie no open opposition is made to Poperie are there there-fore no Protestant eyther Pastours or Professours in those partes The future Ages might perhaps bee induced to thinke so because that so the Storie of the Tyme may carrie no-thing beeing recorded but what in common obtayneth in the Tyme But wee who nowe liue would laugh him to heading as an impudent or senselesse Liar who would but denye that even in Rome are hundreths who holde the Pope to bee Antichrist And howe great encowragement so-ever our too great Lenitie giveth them of kything yet would they bee contented that their numbers amongst vs were esteemed but according to their open and advowed opposition When the golden Calfe was set vp in the Wildernesse and that by so common an Apostasie as that Aaron was carryed away with the violent Streame of that Evill it might appeare that none had beene there for the LORD or free of that common Guiltinesse and yet thousands did kythe in the convenient tyme of challenge Were there none true eyther Prophets or Professours in Israel the yeares of Elias lurking And yet who spake publicklie for the Trueth Did not even Elias thinke that all were gone when yet there were an hundreth Prophets in one Caue and seaven thousand true Professours in one and the same Kingdome Shall Tolleration speciallie in perilous tymes conclude approbation of what is tollerated in all the Tolleraters there-of Doeth not Augustine acknowledge in his tyme where-in the Mysterie of Iniquitie was not so farre advanced but that Trueth still obtayned some place in common that for regarde of the CHVRCHES peace they were compelled to tollerate manie thinges which other-wayes they vtterlie mislyked Attour in your Man's Objection is another ridiculous Fallacie by confounding the diverse and distinct tymes and accordinglie the diverse and distinct degrees of growth of that Apostasie in the course of tyme and not distinguishing accordinglie the diverse sortes and degrees of Opponers and of opposition therevnto No Age since the Apostolicke tymes wanted its owne opposition and Opponers according to the degree of Evill all-though they came not to that last and highest degree to which the open discoverie of the Evill in the toppe of all importable and vncurable Impietie did force Men. Loue is ever loath to cast off till all hope bee past And sober Men some-tymes in a laudable judgement some-tymes agayne in weaknesse will even choose often in a prevayling Iniquitie rather to lurke and keepe themselues cleane than with perilous Contestation eyther to disturbe the CHVRCHES Peace or object them-selues to desperate Daungers Which not-with-standing when they perceiue that vvithout playne perill of all Christianitie and imputation to them-selues of betraying the Gospell Peace can no more bee keeped will then rather contest with all hazard than tollerate a clearlie-discovered and a desperatelie-pernicious Mischiefe Shall a Thiefe bee counted no Thiefe but from the tyme of his open Endytement Or shall the first beginninges of injurious Vsurpation on the one part and an vndoubted and cleare Right on the other be reckoned onlie from the first publick poynts of Litiscontestation A Man disposed to Peace will long beare and patientlie expect Reparation of Wronges and even comport with manie injurious Encroachmentes vpon hope that Reason and gentle Admonition will bring the Partie to doe him measure VVho not-with-standing at last perceiving his Adversaries waywardnesse and daylie progresse in wrong doing will then intende playne Action agaynst him for his Right Nowe shall the vsurping and injurious Partie haue in this anie reason where-by eyther to justifie him-selfe or eschew Reparation of all his by-gone Wronges and vsurpation because they were never till then challenged in that manner and degree You may see more heere-of in my TREATISE of our CALLINGES and COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION Philomathes Well let vs goe on Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle Eubulus No but if it had what should haue followed there-vpon vnto the Church more than vpon the fall of Iudas What a ridiculous Question is this as if on the standing or falling of anie one Man or what-so-ever number of Men did hang the fall or stabilitie of the Church which is builded neyther on Man nor Men but on that immooueable Rocke which can not fall Yet your Bellarmine confesseth That though the Pope should fall away from Trueth yet the Church should not there-fore fayle Philomathes You who are so quicke a Carper of Aequivocations fall now to the same Play which you reprooue so often in our Poet. For by Peter's Fayth hee doeth not meane that Spirituall Vertue where-with Peter was endewed there-by apprehending CHRIST to Salvation as you would perhaps descrybe it but that Doctrine of Fayth which Peter professed and taught Eubulus Then Philomathes the playing with Aequivocations shal be still your Poet's part for the Lord prayed for the stabilitie of Peter's particular fayth where-of Satan sought to sift him which remayning steadfast was his Victorie in that his Temptation as I haue before signified And if your Man will haue it permitted vnto him by Poeticall Licence agaynst the LORD'S mynde to wrest Scripture and to intitle thus the Doctrine of Fayth yet why is it called Peter's faith more than am 's or Iohn's And why would not your Poet rather according to Scripture speach cal it the Faith of our LORD IESVS CHRIST But in what-so-ever sense giving him that the Fall or Standing of the Church had depended whollie on the fayling or stabilitie of Peter's Fayth could that Fayth bee no other-wayes preserved but in the Church of Rome And shall the fall of Rome conclude that Peter's Fayth and consequentlie CHRIST'S Church is fallen To make this Conclusion infallible your Man must bring a better Argument than a vayne vaunt of a bare personall Succession while in the tyme they are fallen away from Peter's Fayth to the fayth of Simon Magus Philomathes Did the Gates of Hell prevayle Eubulus No but they did so farre assayle and with such successe in GOD His just judgement and wyse permisssion as Satan obtayned a Throne even in the Temple of GOD. Philomathes Did the Salt lose its Savour Eubulus It did so farre lose its Savour in common and such as should haue beene the Salt of the Earth became so vnsavourie that they could serue for nothing but to bee cast out and trodden vnder foot Cast out the Court which is with-out the Temple and mete it not c. yet ever still the LORD had Ministers so seasoned with the Spirit of Light and Grace as they were al-wayes Candle-stickes and Oliues to
CHVRCH If your Doctours would or if your seduced ones could vnderstand this all your Mens vayne Objections of the Church should goe in Smoake But of this matter I haue written so largelie in my Defence of our Callinges and Discoverie of the Adversarie's Dotage as I wearie heere to multiplie so manie words vnto you And this which I haue now more than once sayd sufficientlie answereth your Man's next Question Philomathes The next Question is Who kept the holie Scriptures then From the hands of wicked men Eubulus In this Interrogatour I can not tell whether hee showeth him-selfe more ignorant or impudent for first it is asked as if nothing had beene in the Bodie but the Sore If besydes the consuming Gangrene there was ever a Bodie where-in it was and though affected therewith in common yet having Members some lightlie affected some whollie free of that Evill how shamelesse is your Man in this his question Next what if the keeping of Scripture had beene even by the contagious Companie Is this eyther impossible or a new thing to the LORD And hath it not fore-going Examples of the lyke marvelous dispensation to the high commendation of His Wisdome and Providence but where-in the Keepers haue nothing to glorie of Did not the Iewes who neyther pleased GOD were Enemies to all Men who crucified the LORD of Glorie and rejected Salvation and on whom the wrath of GOD was come to the out-most yet by His wyse disponing Providence keepe so carefullie the Canon of holie Scripture as there-fore they obtayne the name of Christianorum Librarii The Libraries of Christians Made not GOD the holie Vessels of the Temple to bee carefullie kept even in Babylon till the tyme of Restitution And what wonder then if in mysticall Babylon the Vessels and Instruments of the true Sanctuarie were long both kept and captived And may not the Conformitie of Case so jumplie aunswering make vs to advert in a deepe Heavenlie Wisedome howe those former thinges were also in GOD HIS Purpose Stampeâ—… of thinges to come Was not the Arke of GOD kept carefullie amongst the Philistimes Of what Moode hath your Man beene Philomathes when hee mooved so ridiculous a Question Philadelphus Why should you so much marvell heereat Eubulus You did tell vs before That their Poët in this his Armie of Interrogatoures did more trust in the Mâ—…ltitude of all than in the particular Strength of anie one And in such common Convocations it is no wonder though manie bee founde not well appoynted in their Geare And nowe verilie I count it straunge that Men professing great thinges yet should not onelie bewray a shamefull Want both of Light and Sense in laying for the onelie Rules of Examining and discerning GOD HIS Trueth What or vvhere or vvhat tyme or by what Men ought hath beene mayntayned and moste commonlie holden But even not obscurelie taxe the ALL-MIGHTIE as leaving His Church so weaklie warranded of the Way of Trueth Not when nor where not who nor what a number Moste carried Vogue is moste to bee inquyred Satan seducing with the Spirit of Slumber Soone wydelie Starres and multitudes inspyred GOD gaue vp Men to what their Hearts desyred Thus Satan's Throne was set ev'n in the Temple Trye Trueth for Errour earlie was ing yred Wee liue by Lawes and not by loose Exemple In darkest tymes some true light aye remayned Though secretlie and but of some retayned Philomathes Wee are nowe come to our last poynt and as wee account the moste choyse Shaft in all our Quyver Our Man's last part of his Discourse vpon this poynt of HAERETICKES you reduced Eubulus vnto this Syllogisme If thinges affirmed by you of your Churches can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST made to His CHVRCH and her certayne Condition there-by and if you are forced to acknowledge of the Church of Rome that which is competent onlie to CHRIST His Church then are your Churches Haereticall and the Church of Rome is the Church of CHRIST But the first is true There-fore the second all-so Eubulus That was in-deede the Syllogisme where-in I compryzed this last part of your Man 's poeticall Discourse vpon HAERETICKES Philomathes There-of graunting the Proposition you denyed the Assumption and haue accordinglie done your best to show it false in this part that anie thing is affirmed by you of your Churches where-with the Promise of CHRIST can not consist The other part of the Assumption seemeth yet to stand strong namelie that you are forced to confesse that of the Church of Rome which can not bee competent but to the Church of CHRIST and there-fore that the Conclusion at least for that part is true namelie That The Church of ROME is the Church of CHRIST This poynt confessed by you of Rome and which can bee competent to none other Companie but to CHRIST His Church is the lawfull Ordination of Pastours as you your selfe did before verie formallie take vp in this Syllogisme To giue lawfull Ordination to Pastours is competent onlie to the Church of CHRIST But Protestants acknowledge That Ordination given by the Church of Rome was lawfull Ordination There-fore the Church of Rome was the Church of CHRIST And consequentlie Protestantes are Haeretickes who haue forsaken her communion Eubulus If I haue well and clearlie over-throwne the first parte of his Assumption as you confesse Philomathes that I haue done my best to that effect consider vvith your selfe vvhat Feete the other parte there-of can possiblie finde for to stand vpon But to try this You acknowledged That I prooved no Praevaricatour in taking vp the summe of your Man his Argument but that vprightlie I haue brought it foorth in all the strength his wordes can giue it Philomathes I acknowledge it in-deede and approoue your Ingenuitie in such poyntes Eubulus Then will I as clearlie vnfolde to you the manyfolde Deceit there-of For first his whole Argument is a beguiling Sophisme à communi indiviso as the Schooles speake to bee a separate parte in the Communitie And to cleare this I will orderlie goe thorowe the partes of his Syllogisme You haue to advert the deceit of his Proposition For that lawfull Ordination of Pastoures is competent to no Companie or Bodie but to the Church of CHRIST it is moste certayne For the Ordayners of Pastoures must of necessitie haue outward lawfull Place and power in the visible CHVRCH in which except they both were 〈◊〉 did all-so obtayne Place and Power there-in they â—…uld bee no lawfull Ordayners at all Nowe because that Bodie in common in which all lawfull Ordayners are and must bee is vndoubtedlie the Church of CHRIST there-vpon to insinuate that all or moste parte of Ordayners in this Bodie are of it and though lawfull Pastoures yet eyther true Pastoures or Christians it is a Sophisticall Deceit à communi indiviso as I haue sayde And vpon your Man's Proposition thus rightlie vnderstood and as it can onlie bee admitted to bee true
EUBULUS OR A DIALOGVE Where-in a rugged Romish Ryme inscrybed Catholicke Questions to the Protestant is confuted and the Questions there-of answered BY P. A. Answere a Foole to his foolishnesse lest hee bee wyse in his owne conceit Proverbs 26. 5. ABERDENE PRINTED BY EDWARD RABAN Dwelling vpon the Market-place At the Towns Arms 1627. WITH PRIVILEDGE TO THE MOST HONOVRABLE VERTVOVS and Christian Ladie ANNA LADIE GORDON c. OF this DIALOGVE MADAME written now thirteene Yeares a-goe no more was at that tyme intended but a few Manuscripts for satisfying some Godlie Myndes and obviating the insolencie of some ignorant and ydle Humours foolishlie glorying of nothing Yet even so was it bolde then to betake it selfe to the shadow of Your most Honourable NAME though it never had yet the Cowrage to present it selfe to a Kisse of Your Hands and perhaps had lyen buried in this its Shamefastnesse for ever if vpon the renewed impudent Importunitie of the same sort of Men at the instant desyre of some well-affected Christians it did not now come out to a more publicke view of the World In which case if it should eyther neglect or disclayme so Noble an Ones acclaymed Patrocinie al-be-it there-by could bee no imparement to Your Honour to whose great worth manie such Dedications can adde no lustre yet were it some Disgrace to the Treatise it selfe and discredite al-so to the Author thereof who yet liveth no lesse affected than ever to serue Your Ladiship in the LORD Receiue then that which is Your owne as a poore but an vpright Token how farre the Author and all of his Calling account them-selues obliedged to giue Your Honour all Heartening and Encowragement for cleaving so constantlie agaynst manyfolde assaultes and temptations to that Trueth which heerein is defended The GOD of all Trueth still more and more stablish strengthen and confirme You there-in blesse Your most Honourable Lord and You with all Happinesse heere and bring You both in ende to Eternall Blessednesse with HIM-SELFE in the Heavens YOVR LADISHIPS Humble Servant P. A. TO THE READER IT may perhaps Christian Reader appeare strange to thee and little beseeming my Place and Age that I deigne so ridiculous a Ryme with so large an Answere yea with anie Answere at all But so it fell out that now aboue thirteene years a-goe the perverse Sedulitie of seducing Priests and the foolish Insolencie of ignoranâ—… Souls seduced by them and vaynlie glorying of this their Ballad which numbers of them had continuallie in their mouthes who never had eyther read or gotten by heart anie one Psalme of David did worke in a certayne verie honourable and worthie Noble Man such holie Indignation agaynst the one and pittifull Compassion of the other as made him seriouslie solicite me to make some Answere there-to Which to doe I was induced by his Intreatie though much agaynst myne owne Disposition Who as I loue and commend the accurate Inquisition and clearing of Trueth by calme and Christian Conference and sober and sedulous Indagation So from myne Heart I ever abborred all litigious Contestation in what-so-ever Argument but most of all in matters of Religion And yet such is the miserable mishap of our tyme or rather of mad Humours in our-time that nothing is so bitterly and with so great Heat Passion and damnable spyte debated as are poyntes of Divinitie And this intemperie hath so farre in common taken all myndes as that all Christianitie is now turned in odious and humourous Disputation and all both Men and Women will be for-sooth of a partie all-be-it most part of them so ignorant as they know neyther what they holde or what they impugne no more vnderstaÌ„ding what they speake of than doe Pyoâ—…s or Parockets those wordes which they are taught to prattle And withall so carrying in all their other Conversation as it is both shame sinne that they should be so and acious as to take anie such Argument in their mouthes who hate to be reformed and in all their wayes make not Conscience of anie Sinne. Yet they are incessantlie holde to mooue Questions of Religion who beeing posed agayne can not answere to the simple questions of the Childrens Catechisme Thus be at of Disputation hath not onlie cooled but even all-most extinguished all Devotion and not only breedeth Stryfe but even all-where breaketh out to more vngodlinesse You shall hardlie fall now in anie fellowship where you shall not heare some one or other question of Religion egarlie prophanelie miserablie torne and tossed amoÌ„gst such and acious and impure mouthes as neyther inwardly in their Souls 〈◊〉 â—…ny sense or outwardlie in their carriage anie practise of true Religion Will you talke with these Questioners of true Pietie of Fayth of Regeneration of Christian lyfe of Mortification subduing our affections of Christian patience of the worke of GOD'S Spirit in our Soules for those effectes of the joyes of the holie Ghost or finallie of anie case of Conscience they shall stand as dumbe as Fishes you shal be to them a Barbarian aâ—… strange as one speaking Aethiopian to an Yrish With whom though I haue no delight to deale in this sort yet the mouthers of perverse men must bee stopped Baal's Priests must bee checked with holie scorne and Fools must be some-tymes answered to their follie lest they should appeare wyse in their owne conceits Now as for these Reasons I having my service then assigned me in those Quarters where this Folliâ—… brake foorth was at that tyme stirred to wryte this Treatise and even then to giue out some one or two Manuscripts there-of where-by to calme some-what those insolent Insulters and to confirme godlie though weake Mynds and it having accordinglie in some measure wrought that effect then I there-vpon did cast it by hand as in myne owne Estimation no more vsefull or to be regarded But whyle now agayne our Adversaries of late through too great indulgence and connivence granted them haue risen to greater insolencie than before and impudentlie repone to vs not onlie the same Matter but al-so in the same manner shameleslie and senseleslie still blazing al-where abroad this their Proper Ballad aâ—… if never anie thing had beene sayd there-vnto divers well affected Brethren knowing that I had a Copie there-of by me dealt instantlie with me that this Treatise might be put to the PRESSE For whose satisfaction I haue given way to the Printing of it wishing heartilie it may both please thee and be profitable vnto thee and all honest Hearts seeking in singlenesse for Confirmation and stablishment in Trueth and praying GOD that all of vs may seriouslie studie not so much to Ydle and vnprofitable Wranglings as both to learne ourselues and to teach others that Doctrine which is according to godlinesse Fare-well THYNE IN CHRIST P. A. TO PHILADELPHUS LOE PHILADELPHVS hovv Thy loue hath led mee To penning of this PAMPHLET for Thy pleasure Where-of vvith Reason vvell I could haue fred mee If this I durst
hee hath so bewitched the miscarried fansie of Philadelphus that hee maketh no small account of his fellowship yea even my Lord his Father and my Ladie his Mother carrie him no lesse reverence and loue than if he were forsooth a person of some worth Philomathes And is this indeede Eubulus verilie I am glad I haue the occasion to see him for hee hath the report of a discreet Gentle-man and that hee hath some good Gift in teaching and I haue much longed to heare him Eriphilus What! Philomathes doe you account it a lawfull thing to heare anie of these Heretickes This Eubulus I tell you is an Oratour and can perswade foolish people to wiene much of him And I will not denie but he hath some piece of prudent and faire Carriage but Catholickes ought so much the more to shunne his fellowship lest they bee deceived with Showes Philomathes Verelie Eriphilus I can not altogether allow of your judgement in this for al-be-it I mislike their Church yet I haue heard some of their Preachers speake both powerfullie and holilie so as I can not denie but I haue beene some-times both instructed and edified by them And if wee will lay aside Passion and Praejudice wee must acknowledge that there bee some of them who are both excellentlie learned and exemplarlie holie men And thus much haue I gained by hearing of them that certainlie I perceiue our Writers to lay against them manie vnjust imputations so to make their doctrine odious as if they did maintaine things where-of I haue often heard them teach the contrarie And for mee I never can approoue that a good Cause be defended with Calumnies Eriphilus To speake plainlie to you Philomathes I thinke you are little from halting betwixt two and I can not account him a true Catholicke who will either heare or in anie thing approoue such Heretickes or will so much as once call in question what-so-ever the Church enjoyneth Philomathes I will beare with you to judge of mee as you please but I both am a true Catholicke and doe reverence the Church yet without light indifferentlie to embrace all things I thinke it not onelie brutish but also vnlawfull for Christians who haue to try what they holde And verilie saving the judgement of holie Church that opinion of implicite Faith hath both much disgraced the Catholicke Cause and hath made our Doctrine to bee suspected of maniâ—… But it is high time for vs to salute these Gentle-men CHAPTER II. Philomathes GOD saue you Masters Philadelphus GOD saue you Philomathes and you Eriphilus Doe your Effaires lye this way Eriphilus This same is our way and though it were not yet wee had reason to offer you the duetie of Convoy so as if it bee not displeasant vnto you wee will for a space keepe you companie Philadelphus Your companie is to vs verie acceptable Eriphilus But I pray you good Sir was it not the Minister Theriomachus who a little hence did part from you Philadelphus You haue judged rightlie Eriphilus And how falleth it for all his Clergie that now in almost halfe a yeare hee cannot finde an Answere to one Sheete of Paper which yet hee received with no small presumption that how-so-ever Pitch was defiling yet hee reâ—…mbled an hote Tongs which could contract no Contagion there-by Philadelphus By what Logicke will you inferre Eriphilus because hee hath made no Answere there-to that therefore hee could finde none to giue it Know you not that by the holie Ghost His owne Testimonie it is some-times foolishnesse to make answere And yet how are you bolde to affirme hee hath not answered it Haue you heard all the Conference hee ever had with the partie-presenter of that Sheete of Paper since the time hee received it Hee hath written nothing there-to you will say But from the defect of a written Answere to conclude of no answere at all it is an halting argumentation And haâ—… honest men thinke you who are busied in their publicke Callings nothing else a-doe but to waste time and travell in intertaining Plea with Contentions and ydle humours vpon everie pievish Pamphlet put out by them of thinges a thousand times refuted To answere ought is but a labour bootlesse When curious Questions are in pryde proposed On Soules fore-stall'd all travell tane is fruitlesse For Light is but to lowlie myndes exposed Manie protest them vprightlie disposed Singlie to search and receiue Institution Who yet keepe that with-in their Breastes inclosed Which barreth out all better Resolution Who with him-selfe concludes sine counsell craveth According to his Idoles hee receiveth Philomathes You haue set downe in your Sonnet a most certaine trueth For my selfe I protest I ever abhorred all contention and bitternesse in disputing And who for anie other ende maintaine Argument but in an vpright and calme care to finde out Trueth they are both displeasant to others and vnprofitable to themselues But seeing that Eriphilus hath casten in this matter and wee haue so convenient occasion of Eubulus companie and the time shall bee so well spent I would intreat Eubulus that if hee hath ought to answere to these Questions hee will vouchsafe to speake it and this I protest I require in vprightnesse because I doe thinke there bee diverse of them to which hardlie shall hee finde anie good answere Eubulus I never refused to conferre calmlie with anie but I hate contention and if you Philomathes jumpe with mee in this humour I will obey your request the more gladlie and I hope our Conference shall not bee altogether fruitlesse Haue you then these Questions by you and if not I can perhaps supplie your want Philomathes I haue them heere and will reade them to yoâ—… in order yet I am glad that you haue alreadie seene them for you may answere the more resolutelie to each This then is the Inscription A proper new Ballad where-in is contained Catholicke Questions to the Protestant Eriphilus I perceiue that you are alreadie acquainted with it How say you then Philadelphus is it not indeede a proper Ballad Philadelhpus How proper his Ballad is let poëts judge Out of my little skill I may boldlie affirme that for anie either grace it bringeth to his Arte or credite to his Cause hee might right well haue contented him-selfe to speake in Prose but his forme is good aneugh for his matter and hee is I warrand you no worse Poët than hee prooveth evidentlie a weake Divine Reason and Ryme if sweetlie they bee sembled Implant in Men the pleasanter Impression Quicke Arguments with Eloquence enaembled Draw contrare Myndes more quicklie to Confession But of true Fayth if vnder false Profession Songs bee made Syropes but to sweeten Errours Prudence will spye and keepe of Trueth possession Vnsnar'd with Syrens or yet tost with Terrours But that 's soone seene which wants both Sause Season Your raving Man hath neither Ryme nor Reason Eriphilus It is by evincing Syllogismes I trow and not by invectiue Sonnets Philadelphus that
that some Noble partes yet resist the Disease so as the Bodie al-be-it heavilie affected yet dieth not yea getting the true Medicine and Divine Purgation of the Word and Spirit will expell the Evill and notiue Humour and recover Health as Experience hath prooved clearlie in manie Reformed both Churches and Persons Thus Philomathes if in your Assumption you meane by the Church that whole Bodie absolutelie on which that Name was fraudfullie and tyrannicallie imposed then you conclude not your Poynt but deceiue by Aequivocation A dici ad esse from So called and wronglie called to So is confounding that knowne Distinction of Logicke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where-of I spake before And if by the Church of Rome you signifie the Papalitie and Evill in the Bodie which wee impugne as you must if you evince ought agaynst vs then is your Assumption clearlie false For both before that Evill invaded the Bodie the Bodie was and even at the tyme of the waxing Sore yet still continued brooking some healthsome remnant of Spirituall Sense and Lyfe and now at last by the Medicinall Vertue of the Word and Spirit is recovering Health and destroying the formerlie destroying Disease This will bee yet more cleare by the discoverie of that other Fallacie where-by in this Case of the Churches continuance your Men partlie illude and partlie are illuded For because the Church continueth al-wayes they esteeme and conclude falselie That there-fore shee continueth still in one and the same Condition of Light and Lyfe that is That Trueth and lawfull Worship hath al-wayes helde place and borne swey there-in in common so as what-so-ever Companie or Doctrine most in common obtayned and carried Vogue that was the true Church of CHRIST and the true and Orthodox Fayth And this is most absurdly false and evinced to be so not onlie by evident Experience but also by cleare Scripture For all 〈◊〉 Church Trueth in her hath continued alwayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 she bene subject to manie Wrestlings Victories Kything 〈◊〉 Eclypses Shee is some-tyme darkened sayth Augustine and is as it were over-clowded with multitude of Offences some-tyme by tranquillitie of tyme quyet free she showeth her selfe some-tyme is covered and troubled with the waues of tribulations and tentations We confesse that the Church hath continued always but not as the presuming Whoore boasteth I sit being a Queene shall see no mourning but oft-tymes afflicted tossed with tempest having no comforter She hath still continued but as a Woman even at first while shee was yet cloathed with the Sunne traveling and crying out with payne next persecuted cruellie thirdly fleeing to the Wildernesse fourthly lurking and fed there while the beast of Satan's power maketh the Earth to follow him by false pretence of the Lambe's horns She hath coÌ„tinued alwayes yet so as sometime while the Earth Sea Fountayns Rivers Starres Sun Moone are eyther first in a great part burnt corrupted made bitter eclypsed or totally at last darkened she consisted of a few secret sealed ones exempted in GOD'S merciful care froÌ„ a common evill Sometime againe she is of a number innumerable with Palms in haÌ„d Her state hath bene sometime as the temple closed in relation to al the holy citie court of the teÌ„ple trodden vnder foot of the Heathen her Pastours some-time few secret ministring within the Temple in sorrow for prevayling Evils yet long without blood-shed as being vnperceived Sometime again vpoÌ„ application of the true measuring Reede for discerning the true Church within the compas of so importable an impietie cruelly murdered barbarouslie intreated eveÌ„ with applause of the World Sometime agayn in greater vigour terrifying their enemies in open view flying thorow the midst of HeaveÌ„ with the ever-lasting Gospell separated from incurable Contagion to come vp hither Sometime as now at last comming so down on the earth as it is all lightened with the glorious shyning of the Gospell Wee know that the true Church hath continued al-wayes Yet so as in a common Apostasie where-by Antichrist obtayned a Throne even in the Temple of GOD and all the Earth followed the Beast receiving his Character Name or Number while to the Beast his wondering Sectators and charactized Slaues it appeared impossible that anie such Companie could bee shee consisted of 144000 secret sealed and chaste ones following the Lambe and having a powerfull and plentifull Dispensation of Grace and a sweet sound of well-tuned Harps al-be-it none could eyther heare or learne their Song but them-selues Finallie wee acknowledge That the Gates of Hell never prevayled or shall prevayle agaynst the Church but yet they haue often assayled her strangelie And thus in what-so-ever sense your Assumption Philomathes That the Church of Rome hath onelie of all Companies in the Worlde for manie Ages retayned the name of CHRIST and anie Worship there-of is eyther deceitfullie sophisticall or evidentlie false And so your Conclusion commeth to nought Philadelphus This poynted Syllogisme of yours Eriphilus Eâ—…bulus hath so blunted as it will scarse serue to pricke a Pudding And if neyther CONTINVANCE can bee a proper Marke of the Church and beeing modified so as it may best seeme to bee one yet is falselie assumed of Rome I see no better Conclusion but that wee let her continue the Mother of Whoordomes and that wee seeke the BRYDE vvhere Shee may bee better found out Of Propers it 's a Propertie that ever Of their owne Subjectes they are surelie sayde Satan shall nev'r CHRIST from His Church dissever Continuance yet can not tho bee made Her proper Marke let see how shee it had The verie moment of her first Creation Some tract of Tyme must bee of force fore-layde Where it is made a proper Praedication This Poynt is al 's accorded amongst Clerks No Common Cases can bee Proper Marks Philomathes Well Eubulus giving you that the Church continued not al-wayes in one and the same Condition of obtayning Trueth and that possiblie Errour might haue prevayled in the whole Church in common but not vniversallie in each within it yet except some visible and seene Companie how small so-ever may bee produced by you who haue professed your Fayth Doctrine to whom you may with anie show of Reason acclayme the Title of the true Bodie so lay over on vs the name and blame of the Sore vvhat is all your reasoning but a poore and verie improbable Paralogisme A posse ad esse as Schooles speake And the poynt of our Syllogisme is not yet so farre blunted as Philadelphus would make it Eubulus To evince the possibilitie it sufficiently meeteth all your Men who agaynst our Demonstrations of GOD His Trueth with vs and the Apostasie of the Church of Rome oppose al-wayes and onlie to vs the impossibilitie that anie such Case should befall the Church So as mine Argument is not as you speake A posse ad esse but of that where-of wee evidentlie
Syrope Philadelphus is little lesse vnpleasant than your Potion so as Eriphilus hath to provide him-selfe other-wayes of Patience But leaving this I will turne mee agayne to Eubulus who gaue the Wound which you well satyricklie haue rankled You remember Eubulus that you compryzed our Man's whole Discourse of HAERETICKES in this mayne Syllogisme To whom the Notes of HAERETICKES doe properlie conveane and in whom are found manyfolde Defectes which can not befall the true Church they must of necessitie bee baereticall But to the Protestant Churches the Notes of HAERETICKES doe properlie conveane and in them are found manyfolde Defectes which can not befall the true Church There-fore the Protestant Churches are haereticall The Proposition of this Argument you admitted To the first part of the Assumption as touching the Notes of Haeretickes you haue so answered that labouring to cleare your selues you haue layde over well sadlie that Imputation vpon our Church Nowe then all-be-it wee haue the longer but the lesse Esperance of prevayling yet seeing this other poynt concerning the Defectes found in you or affirmed of you resteth nowe onelie of all our Man's Poēsie to bee spoken of I would heare your Aunsweres all-so vnto his Interrogatours there-vpon Eubulus Of this Philomathes I will acquyte my selfe with small a-doe for that all-most all the Defectes objected vnto vs are vpon your Poet 's praesumed Opinion That wee want those Markes where-of hath beene spoken So as anie sensible Man in that which wee haue all-readie sayde shall finde all his subsequent Questions sufficientlie aunswered Besides that else-where I haue aunswered them at such length as my Discourse heere may bee the shorter and you yet aboundantlie satisfied if not with that which I now say yet with easie paynes to reade mine other TREATISES Nowe then reade foorth in order your Man's Questions Philomathes I will both gladlie heare what you shall now say and will not wearie al-so to reade what else-where you haue written These now are the Questions You say your Fayth did appeare For the space of sixe hundreth Yeare But tell mee if thou can When Papistrie first began Where were the Servants of the LORD That none of them durst speake a word To defend the knowne Trueth ************** Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle Did the Gates of Hell prevayle Did the Salt lose its savour Was the Bryde out of favour Was the Pillar over-throwne By vvhich all Trueth vvas to bee knowne By this thou vvouldst prooue playne All CHRIST'S Promise to bee vayne Sea Heavens and Earth shall passe in-deede But of this Word no jot vvee reade Where haue you beene so long a tyme To vvhom did your Light shyne Where did your principall Pastor sit Who kept your Keyes vvho fed your Sheepe Show mee some Church that you haue built I can shew manie that you haue spilt Were all damned eternallie Who vvere not of your Companie How might a Man haue found you out To haue tryall in matters of doubt When no such Companie did appeare For so manie hundreth Yeare Till LUTHER a lying Frier On vvhom the Devill ◅ad desire Brake his Vow and married a Nun And then your Haeresie first begun And favoured in SAXONIE By a Duke that loved Libertie And in King EDWARD'S tyme truelie It first infected our Countrey For a thousand yeares you say That Papistrie did beare the sway And during all that space No Protestant did show his Face Who kept the holie Scripture then From the hands of wicked men Who had Authoritie to ordayne Or make Priests or Bishops agayne For hee that entereth without order As a Thiefe doth kill and murder Hee is a Wolfe and not a Priest And Enemie to our Saviour CHRIST And one thing doth make mee muze That no Priest you did refuse Ordayned by the Church of Rome But hee was excepted soone If hee would say your Service Hee should haue a Benefice Without anie farder Order And accounted for the Better How may shee make a lawfull Priest If shee bee not the Church of CHRIST Answere this if that thou can And I will bee a Protestan But while your Answere you devyse I counsell all Men that bee wyse To holde the Fayth mayntayned heere The space of a thousand Yeare Brought to vs English-men By our Apostle Sainct Austine Who from Rome vvas hither sent When EDWARD vvas King of KENT Who learn'd his Fayth of Gregorie ◅ Which Fayth vvas kept successiuelie By three-score Bishops and three From Saynct Peter's tyme vvee see Who learn'd his Fayth of CHRIST IESU Who is the Sonne of GOD most true To HIM bee all Honour and Prayse Who doeth defende HIS Church al-wayes Eubulus You may perceiue Philomathes the trueth of that which I sayde vnto you that all these yourman's questions are coincident with the cases of Continuance Visibilitie wherof we haue spoken except that in end for giving vs a deadly blow in his conceit he close all vp with the question of our Callings And to make cleare to you how your man multiplieth words in vayne without knowledge I reduce all his impertinent pratling to this mayne Argument If things affirmed by you of your Churches can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST made to His Church and Her certaine condition thereby and if you are forced to acknowledge of the Church of Rome that which can not bee competent to anie Companie but to CHRIST'S Church then are your Churches Haereticall and the Church of Rome is the Church of CHRIST But the thinges affirmed by you of your Churches can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST made to His Church and Her certayne Condition there-by and that which you grant of the Church of Rome is onlie competent to CHRIST HIS Church There-fore your Churches are Haereticall and the Church of Rome is the Church of CHRIST Philomathes Verilie our Poet if hee were even heere present could alleadge no Prevarication on you in the vpright compryzing of the summe of his Discourse And if you shall answere to it as clearlie and ingeniouslie as you haue ingeniouslie propounded it vndoubtedlie the best of this Game will bee yours Eubulus The Proposition of his Argument is true but his Assumption is extreamlie false where-of hee laboureth to fortifie the first part touching the Defects alleadged on our Churches thus The Promise of CHRIST to His Church is That Peter's fayth shall never fayle that The Gates of Hell shall not prevayle against her that The Salt shall not lose its savour that The Bryde shall not bee out of favour that The Church shall remaine the stable Pillar of Trueth c. and According to this Promise the certayne Condition of the Church is That Shee al-wayes continueth and is visible But by these things which you affirme of your Churches Peter's Fayth should haue fayled The Gates of Hell should haue prevayled the Salt should haue lost its savour the Spouse should haue beene out of favour the Pillar should haue beene over-throwne and the Church of