Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
truth_n	age_n	church_n	time_n	2,142	5	3.6322	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00791	An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.	A. C.; Champney, Anthony, 1569?-1643?, attributed name.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1623 (1623)	STC 10910.4; ESTC S107710	44,806	106

a Paper shewing briefely and plainely how the true visible Church of Christ must be so visible in al Ages as that the names of some principal Members thereof in euerie Age may be shewed out of good Authors A true Copie of which Paper I thinke fit here to set downe in regard it may serue others as wel as this old Gentleman to vnderstand Why Catholiques doe ordinarily so much presse Protestants to name if they can Protestant Professors in al Ages as Catholiques doe in printed Bookes ordinarily set downe a Catalogue of the Names of the chiefe Pastors and other principal Members of the Catholique Roman Church in al Ages A Copie of the first Paper which M. Fisher writ and deliuered to the old Gentleman before the meeting 1. It is certaine There is one and but one true infallible Faith without which none can please God nor consequently attaine eternal Salnation 2. This one infallible Faith cannot be had according to the ordinarie course of Gods prouidence but by hearing Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church who onely are lawfully sent and authorized to teach the true Word of God 3. As therefore this one infallible Faith hath beene and must be in al Ages so there must needes be in al Ages Preachers and Pastors of the true visible Church of whom al sorts of people haue in time past as appeareth by Histories learned and must in al future times learne the said infallible Truth 4. Hence followeth That if Protestants be the true visible Church of Christ al sorts of men who in euerie Age haue had the aforesaid infallible Faith haue learned it by hearing Protestant Preachers whose names may yet be found in Histories as the names of those are found who in euerie former Age did teach and conuert People of seueral Nations vnto the Faith of Christ. 5. Hence further followeth That if there cannot as there cannot be found in Histories Names of Protestant Preachers who in al Ages did teach al sorts of faithful People and who conuerted seueral Nations vnto the Christian Faith Hence followeth I say That Protestants are not the true visible Church of Christ neyther are their Preachers lawfully sent or sufficiently authorized to teach nor People securely warranted to learne of them that one infallible Faith without which none can possibly please God nor if they so liue and dye be saued If any Protestant wil answer let him set downe Names of Protestant Preachers in al Ages who taught People Protestant Doctrine in euerie seueral Age or confesse there were no such before Luther or at least not in al Ages to be found in Histories After this M. Fisher let the old Gentleman see a little printed Booke in which was a Catalogue of visible Roman Professors in al Ages wishing him to vrge his Ministers to shew if they can a like Catalogue of their Protestant Professors And it is very likely that this Booke as also the foresaid Paper was by this old Gentleman carryed to Sir Humfrey from whom about two or three dayes before the meeting a Paper was sent to M. Fisher contayning the former Question and another like Question proposed to him to dispute vpon the contents whereof were as followeth The question proposed by M. Fisher in which he vndertaketh to maintaine the negatiue is set downe by him in haec verba Whether the Protestant Church was in al ages visible especially in the ages going before Luther and whether the names of such visible Protestants in al ages can be shewed and proued out of good Authors To this vniuersal demand requiring rather an Historical large volume then Syllogical briefe disputes we answer That although 1. Diuine infallible Faith is not built vpon deduction out of humane Historie but diuine Reuelation as is confessed by the Schoolemen and expressely by Bellarmine Historiae humanae non faciunt fidem nisi humanam 2. And this question is grounded vpon vncertaine and false supposals yet wee requite this Proponent putting him to his owne taske in his owne defence by propounding to him the like question viz. Whether the Romish Church that is a Church holding the particular entire doctrine of the now Romanists as it is comprised in the Councel of Trent was in al ages visible especially in the first 600. yeeres and whether the names of such visible or legible Romanists in al ages can be shewed and proued out of good Authors We wil answer negatiuely That no such Church or Professors can be shewed This Paper being deliuered to M. Fisher he writ a second Paper to explicate the meaning of his question to shew an equal method of proceeding in the Disputation A Copie of a second Paper written by M. Fisher before the meeting M. Fisher being requested thereunto for satisfaction of a Gentleman propounded two questions 1. The first Whether there must not be in al ages a visible Church of which al sorts are to learne the infallible Faith necessary to saluation 2. The second Whether the Protestant Church was in al ages visible especially in the ages going before Luther and whether the names of such visible Protestants in al ages can be shewed and proued out of good Authors To the first question Sir H. and others that were present assented so as it was subscribed with these words It is granted and so M. Fisher was content that his second question should be the only question Then Sir H hauing left it to the choice of M. F. whether he would answer or dispute M. F. did choose to answer and defend the negatiue part So as it lyeth vpon Sir H. and those whom he shal choose to make his party good to proue out of good Authors the affirmatiue to wit The Protestants Church was in al ages visible especially in the ages before Luther And likewise they must set downe the names of such visible Protestants in al ages as was demanded When Sir H. or his friends shal haue performed this their taske M. Fisher wil performe what is required in the Paper sent vnto him by Sir H. in the same sort and sense as he requireth Sir H. and his friends to performe their taske For auoyding therefore of al mistaking and consequently needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes M. F. in his question requireth 1. That names of men in al ages be set downe whom Sir H. and his friends conceiue to haue bin Protestants 2. That those men whose names they set downe be shewed out of good Authors to agree in holding some points of Faith in which Protestants differ from the Romane Catholikes 3. That Sir H. or his friends wil defend against M. F. that the same men held no other points of Faith one differently from another and from the present Protestant Doctrine contayned in the 39. Articles vnto which al English Ministers are sworne for otherwise they cannot make one and the same Protestant Church In this sort and sense when Sir H. or his friends shal haue shewed a visible Protestant

be ridiculous impudency By this may appeare how notoriously the old Gentleman and the rest of the Protestant Audience were abused by D. Featly vndertaking so boldly to proue both by syllogisme and Induction the affirmatiue part of the aforesayd question which was proposed to be treated in the conference the Negatiue whereof is so plainely confessed by so many Prime Protestants as now we haue heard §. 3. About the Method Concerning the Method which had beene fittest to haue beene obserued in treating the aforesayd Question it is to be noted that there be two severall methodes of finding out infallible diuine truth in all points necessary to saluation the finding wherof was the chiefe end for which the aforesayd Question about the perpetual visibility of the Church was proposed to be treated of The first methode or way is that euery man eyther by his owne wit or by hearing another discourse do examine throughly ech particuler point of diuine Fayth about which Controuersy or Question is or may be made what is and what is not to be beleeued vnder payne of damnation the which requireth 1. Ability and strength of naturall wit and skill in Latin Greeke Hebrew and other languages and some art by which he may vnderstand the tearmes and state of the Question and all that is writen of it 2. That he reade or heare and vnderstand all that is written of that Question in holy Scriptures Councells Fathers and moderne Writers and in the originall Languages and Copyes and what els may be sayd of it pro and contra by learned Disputants 3. That he doe maturely weigh and ponder al that is sayd both for the affirmatiue and negatiue part of the Question 4. That by prayer and good life he obtaine the assistance of Gods spirit to illuminate his vnderstanding in matters which exceed the capacity of his naturall wit 5. That all this premised he of himselfe without relying vpon the Iudgement of any Church frame a firme and infallible Iudgement what is and what is not to be held for truth necessary to saluation and this being knowne by it as by a rule to iudge which company of men are or are not the true visible Church of Christ in al Ages Now who seeth not that this methode or way of attayning sound resolution in all particuler points of Fayth by that to iudge what company of men are or are not the true visible Church in all ages cannot be fit and conuenient to be prescribed to all or indeed to any sort of men and especially to such as neither haue extraordinary ability of naturall wit or skill in languages nor art requisite to vnderstand the tearmes and state of all Questions nor leasure to read or heare nor strength of iudgment to weigh and ponder all that is or may be sayd of them nor such extraordinary guiftes of prayer and other vertues as they may presume to haue gotten particuler assistance of Gods spirit more then other men whereby they may assure themselues that they in particuler without relying vpon any Churches iudgement can firmely and infallibly iudge in euery Question about points of Fayth what is and what is not to beleeued as a truth necessary to saluation The 2. methode or way which indeed is both most easy and may giue full satisfaction to all sortes consisteth in these 3. points 1. To beleeue and acknowledge as euery Christian is bound by the articles of his Creed that there is and hath beene in all Ages a visible Catholique Church of Christ which is the Pillar of truth and in it a visible company of Pastours and Doctours and lawfully sent Preachers assisted by the spirit of God who haue learned of their predecessours and they of theyrs still vpwardes vntill Christ his Apostles who learned of Christ and Christ of God his Father the infallible Truth in all pointes of fayth of whome by Gods appointment all sorts haue in all Ages past as appeareth by Historyes learned and must in tymes present and to come learne the infallible truth in all matters of Christian fayth necessary to saluation The 2. is to discerne which company of Christians are this visible Church of Christ and who be these Pastours Doctours and lawfully sent Preachers of whome all sorts of men may securely learne what is and what is not to be held for infallible truth in all matters of fayth necessary to saluation The 3. is to heare and belieue and obey whatsoeuer this Company of Christians haue in all Ages taught and what the present ordinary Pastours Doctours and Preachers thereof do teach to be diuine and infallible truth necessary to saluation which to do will not be hard to those who do truely feare and loue God and be meeke and humble in hart and who can and will for the loue and seruice of Christ captiuate their vnderstanding and submit it to the obedience of faith which must be done by mortifying and denying their owne priuate opinion that they may follow the sense and iudgment of Christ speaking in and by his Catholike Church VVhich whosoeuer heareth beleeueth obeyeth doth heare beleeue and obey Christ. And VVhosoeuer contemneth or will not heare beleeue and obey the Church he contemneth Christ and by Christs owne censure is to be accounted as an Heathen or Publican Now concerning the first and third of these points as no doubt or difficulty was moued either by the old Gentleman or Syr Humfrey Lynde or the Doctours or any other of the Company presēt at the Conference so there is no reason why any difficulty should be made therof at all And as for the 2. point it seemeth to me there should be no great difficulty in regard it is already agreed of all sides that there must be one or other such Company of Christians and among them Pastors preachers so visible as is said and none besides the Catholique Romaine hitherto hath shewed a sufficient Catalogue of names of men in al Ages who can with any colour be proued or defended to haue beene professors of the true diuine infallible Catholike primitiue vnchanged faith first deliuered by Christ and his Apostles after continued in an orderly succession of visible Pastors Doctours appoynted by God to be allwayes in the Church of purpose to preserue people of all ages from wauering in doubt of any point of faith or being carried about with the wind of any vpstart Errour Neither indeed can any such Catalogue be giuen but it may be manifestly shewed to be insufficiēt as either wanting names of men in some ages or containing names of such as may certainly be proued to be no Protestants but to differ in doctrine of fayth one from another and to condemne one or other of the 39. Articles vnto which English Protestant Ministers are sworne Neuertheles if any one be not yet satisfyed in this point but will haue the Question made whether the Protestant Church hath beene so visible in all Ages as

out of good Authors And therfore as he had heard the Roman Catholiks made no difficulty to produce out of good Authors the Names of their Pastors people in all Ages so he much desired to heare whether the Names of Protestant Pastors and Preachers in all Ages could not also be produced out of good Authors for if they could he meant to remaine a Protestant as he had been all his life time but if they could not he thought it necessary to leaue the Protestants and to adhere to the Roman Church to learne of it Faith necessary to saluation By this appeareth that the sense and meaning of the Question could be no other then that which M Fisher explicated in the Conference viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages so visible especially in the Ages before Luther as the Names of Protestant Pastors and Preachers in all Ages may be shewed out of good Authors And further that in case the Protestant Disputant should vndertake as he did tooto boldly vndertake the affirmatiue part saying and offering to proue in generall that the Names of such Pastors and Preachers of Protestāt Religion may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors it should further be required as M. Fisher required of him that he should actually name in particular in euery seuerall Age such Pastors and Preachers as he thought he could proue and defend to be Protestants For if the Question had not been thus vnderstood it should not haue been answerable to the occasion and end aboue sayd Neyther could the Protestant Disputant sufficiently satisfie the doubt of the old Gentlemā being chiefly caused in that he had heard that no Protestant could name Pastors and Preachers of his profession in all Ages out of good Authors So as to satisfy this doubt it was not sufficient only to say nor only in generall to proue by such Syllogismes as D. Featly made which were such as the old Gentleman I dare say did not vnderstand that the Names of Protestants in all Ages may be shewed but as M. Fisher had shewed him a printed booke in which Roman Catholike Pastours and people were in particuler named in all Ages so he expected Protestant Pastours and people of all Ages to be named in particuler and after proued and defended to be Protestants as M. Fisher was ready to proue and defend whom he would in particuler name to be Roman Catholikes Furthermore although it may seeme to some not much materiall whether the Protestant Disputant hath begun to name first those of the first Age next of the second and so downward vntill Luther or cōtrary wise to beginne with Luther and so vpward till the Apostles and Christ yet both the words of the Question the doubt of the old Gentleman had byn far better satisfied and the Tergiuersation which D. Featly vsed in the first age auoyded if M. Fisher had vrged him as he might first to beginne with the Age immediatly before Luther a confessed Protestant and so go vpward vntill Christ the confessed Fountayne of infallible perpetuall vnchanged Truth for then it would haue been cleerly seene euen by the Confessiō of learned Protestants particularly Luther himselfe and others that those who eyther are named or can yet be named by D. Featly after he hath sought as I am told he went to seeke Records in the great Library in Oxford were not visible Protestants but of a different Profession Fayth and Religion and so different as that they cannot be iustly deemed members of one and the same Protestant Church with Luther after his Apostacy from his Religious Order and reuolt from the Roman Catholike Fayth For proofe wherof I for breuityes sake do refer euery one who desireth full satisfaction in this point to what is largely related and proued in the Protestants Apology in diuers places but particularly tract 2. cap. 2. sect 11. subdiuision 3. And will only content my selfe to cyte these few testimonyes for their sakes who haue not commodity to see that booke First therefore Luther himselfe sayth We dare boast that Christ was first published by vs. Wherefore the Latheran Conradus Schushelburg sayth It is impudency to say that many learned men in Germany and the like is of other Countreys before Luther did hould the doctrine of the Lutheran Ghospell And another of them not only sayth in effect thus much but proueth it by this argument If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformation Another sayth It is ridiculous to thinke that in the tyme before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receaue it from them not they from Luther considering sayth he it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers tyme all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darkenes and that Luther was diuinely raysed vp to discouer the same to restore the light of true doctrine And least this may be thought to haue beene only the conceipt of Luther and Lutherans who yet could better tell then D. Featly D. White and such other new Maisters I will add heereunto what is sayd first by Caluin who doth acknowledge That in this Lutheran reformation there was made a discession or departure from all the world Secondly by Bucer who calleth Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine Thirdly by Beza a principall Caluinist who teacheth that at this tyme ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant and consequently teacheth that ther was at that tyme no visible Church and so if any Church at all it was only inuisible as is affirmed euē by our owne English Protestant Deuines namely M. Iewel who sayth The truth was vnknown and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Vldericke Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Ghospel And M. Perkins who sayth We say that before the dayes of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostacy ouerspread the whole face of the earth and that our Protestant Church was not visible to the World I might adde many more testimonyes of others who eyther in expresse tearmes or in effect affirme the Protestant Church to haue beene in many Ages before Luther latent and altogeather inuisible which indeed was the common opinion of Protestāts at their first vprysing who on the one side thought they could with shiftes bettter answere places of scripture which made often and honourable mention of the Church then they could answere the euidence of Histories and of their owne experience shewing that no visible Protestants were extant before themselues But now of late diuers plaine places of Scripture and Fathers hauing beene produced and such euident reasons deduced out of them prouing ineuitably that the true Church of Christ of which all sorts must learne infallible sayth necessary to saluation must needes be visible in all Ages as to omitt others