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truth_n	advantage_n	frame_v	great_a	15	3	2.0729	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A67003	A short letter modestly intreating a friends judgement upon Mr. Edwards, his booke he calleth an Anti-apologie, with a large but modest answer thereunto framed, in desire, with such evennesse of hand, and uprightnesse of heart, as that no godly man might be effended at it : and with soule-desire also, that they, who are contrary-minded, might not be offended neither, but instructed.	Woodward, Ezekias, 1590-1675.; Hartlib, Samuel, d. 1662.	1644 (1644)	Wing W3502; ESTC R18279	37,876	40

fitted to every mans taste and yet some did strangely dis●●lish it A. Who can relish this I pray you They call themselves exiles B. Call themselves so They were so indeed and in truth Reader I cannot say a little to this and indeed it is not so fully to my scope yet this I 'le say As sure as by the patience of a good God I breath in His aire so sure I could cleare this even to M. Edw. himselfe that these his brethren justly call themselves exiles A. Voluntary and willing if not wilfull exiles he sayes B. He saith what he pleaseth and so he hath a contradiction in terminis No man that may live in his Countrey and enjoy quietly all the sweets there with Gospell liberties take that with you will leave his Countrey willingly sure No these brethren were forced-out their persons forced their consciences forced c. but I 'le say no more A. They make an Apol. for themselves and therin a motion to the High Court and is that well relished thinke you B. Yes truly I thinke very well relished That they should take liberty to make a motion and speake for themselves It is no more than what is permitted to Church-robbers Traytors yea and Sorcerers too All these sayes one are permitted to make a motion and speake for themselves Are they so Then give the same liberty to the faithfull servants of the Lord to make a motion that they may be permitted to serve their God after the way which I and you simple ones may call heresie But they are perswaded that in that very way they worship the God of their fathers beleeving all things which were written in the Law and in the Prophets A. If it be so reasonable a motion why is it not granted B. I professe unto you I cannot tell but I can tell that you and I must shew more manners than to aske more questions touching this matter It is a reasonable motion so we are concluded It is committed to the highest Judicature in the Kingdome there we leave it and so an end A. Not yet you must remember there is one reason more out of their politicks why they will forbeare to make answer Because it will but widen the difference and lay-open their Church-way to more open scandall B. I humbly conceive none of all this can be but the contrary It will close-up and heale the difference And cleare their way to all unprejudiced beholders or give them cleare knowledge that those brethren are a little out of the way And this answers their supposed politicks why in policie they will not make reply A. 2. It is resolved by some They cannot make reply through weakenesse B. But I can never beleeve that I hold it as feosible a thing as any thing that has been done this many yeares and a work also of quick dispatch for I suppose 1. That all personall things shall be cast away Wherein they have failed in point of practise they will thanke him for telling them all that and be carefull with all their care to correct it Moreover they have a good God to goe unto the Father of mercies And for the people of God the Church she is the mother of mercies I remember Luthers words here in the very like ease I have much ignorance in me about matters of God and have carried things negligently sometime but my ignorance the Church will beare with and my saults she will pardon for she is the Queene of mercy and nothing else but c. These personall matters therefore touching these brethren shall not blot paper these shall be transacted in the closset betwixt God and their soules 2. What things may be unjustly urged against them which sure are very many they can heare with silence and beare with patience so be the glory of God and honour of their profession be not concerned therein As surely all this is concerned when things which the Apo● knew not are taken-up upon trust and urged against them and yet they should make no reply whereby to reprove him to his face 3. And for their reproaches as Melanct. said in the very same case Their Lord Christ will give them strength to beare for him * Who bore away the curse from them they can suffer for Christ and goe away rejoycing More than all this can I beare for Christ said he smitten with the tongue in the same manner None of all this neither shall blot paper no It is spread as the Kings Letter before the LORD He will answer it by Himselfe 4. Touching M. Edw. his walkings in and out his scatterings here and there not a word of that let him and his friends lay open their own nakednesse they will not And so now the Answer is in every ma●s judgement cut short by twenty sheets Now for the worke and body of the Answer I can say nothing to that only I am perswaded in my heart that the Spirit of the Lord is with them the secret of the Lord is revealed unto them because they ask it as the most comprehensive blessing * They obey from the heart and so they feare Him and doe His will surely they shall know of the doctrine a for they can professe that they hated mans inventions all along in his will-worship and that they never leant to their own wisedome they abominated that in their search and enquiry after Truth they followed the most unerring patterne and when any sparke of light was communicated to them they desired no more but to see the clearenesse of Heaven come along with it and then they followed on to seeke the Lord And knowing the terrour of the Lord they would perswade with us simple ones in this That we would feare to kindle a fire of our own to compasse our selves with sparkes for this is the judgement of the Lord in that matter walke in the light of that fire and sparkes which ye have kindled This shall ye have of My hand ye shall lie downe in sorrow Thus Sir I have for the satisfaction of the simple Reader it is great reason he should be satisfied removed the politick reasons which were resolved upon would with-hold a Reply to the Anti-Apol and cleared in passage how able work-men we have for the work how easie the work is and how quickly framed and raised upon the Advantage ground of Truth Whether these servants of the Lord will apply themselves or their Answer to M. Ed. that I cannot tell I think not They cannot sure thinke him worthy of an Answer who has done so unworthily But the people and Church of God they are worthy And now what will this man doe with his Rejoynder and Letters Rejoyne 〈◊〉 what will be Rejoyne to this Thou shalt not raise a false report h Or to this Consider of it take advice and speake i Doubtlesse the man will put his Rejoynder and Letters both to some private shame or open pennance

A SHORT LETTER Modestly intreating a Friends judgement upon Mr Edwards his Booke he calleth an Anti-Apologie With a large but modest Answer thereunto Framed in desire with such evennesse of hand and uprightnesse of heart as that no godly man might be offended at it And with soule-desire also That they who are contrary-minded might not be offended neither but instructed Optimè locutus esset si non in fratres pessimè The man had spoken very well if not against his Brethren very ill Mel. Ep. {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} Chrysost. There is something unholy in His holy ones His Angels he has charged with folly c. Job 4. 18. 1 COR. 4. 5. 1 COR. 11. 31. Judge nothing before the time except your selves that ye may not be judged 1 THES. 5. 21. Prove all things hold fast that which is good LONDON Printed according to Order 1644. Worthy Sir IHave heard of Mr Edwards Anti-Apologeticall Book as I must needs doe for all the City and Parliament rings of it The most of them cry it up and some few cry it downe Truly Sir I could cry too but neither up nor downe For my heart is big with weeping and I could wish my head a fountaine of teares to bewaile the sad effects which are likely to follow upon these differences of Religion which are fallen out amongst Brethren But that I may know also your affections let me intreate you to cast your eyes not carelesly over a few leaves but the whole Booke that we may be instruments by the grace of God of healing those breaches Sir your freedome of judgement hath not deceived me this 16. yeares in other matters of highest concernement nor is it like to doe now since so many gray haires have covered the seate of it Thus beseeching the God of Truth and Peace to assist both your judgement and affections I take my leave remaining alwayes Sir Your many wayes obliged and most affectionate friend to serve you SAM. HARTLIP From my house in Dukesplace in great haste Aug 5. A short Letter modestly intreating a Friends judgement upon Mr Edwards his Booke he calleth an Anti-Apologie With a large but modest answer thereunto I Must begin complaining Alas Sir how doe you disparage your own judgement when you doe hearken after mine But it is a friendly error I must pardon it and more I will grant your earnest request also How can he choose but yeeld to you what can be yeelded who are all for Truth and Peace pursuing it with all your might Now Blessings be upon your head and the head of yours who have laid-out your selfe and all for God He will returne for man will not nay indeed power is wanting though will more he cannot all your labour of love worke of faith patience of hope seven-fold into your bosome Amen But Sir me thinks you and I are Instruments now meerely passive you in the motion to this undertaking I in the undertaking wrought upon both by a power and counsell higher and better then our owne I conceive it so in you by what I heard you say you had concluded upon between your soule and God I conceive the same of my selfe because I never thought of this nay my mind was wholly averse from scribling till I thought of your Letter and then I could thinke of nothing else and was restlesse till I had answered you Surely Sir there was an hand here more then humane a stronger motion on our spirits than selfe can make A bond which is more binding and engaging then the bonds of men are Gods Cause with his Legacy to the world Truth and Peace And now all is engaged body soul spirit judgement also that is little or nothing indeed But He can use it and direct it Who useth the smallest things to great purpose I le waight upon the Lord as He shall communicate unto me I shall give-back unto you even from His own hand For I thinke it is the desire of my soule willingly to offer my selfe with all the powers of soule and body first unto the LORD Indeed I would not have my selfe or them at my owne dispose for all the world and then my judgement unto you But first I shall say something by way of preface Doe not be jealous of your friend now that he will give any the least libert to his pen to asperse persons or their opinions touching the way of Government now in agitation and dispute Or that any word shall reflect upon the Scots whom I honour no people in the world more with my soule And am perswaded they ought so to be honoured for they are come-forth carrying their lives in their hands willing to lay their lives downe for their friends A greater love than this has ●o man Surely here is a love more then humane for it is as strong as death the Lord returne it to their bosome in Spirituals for Temporals are too meane a returne for such Adventurers It is also as far from my thoughts as it is out of my power to asperse their way of Church Governement I think honourably of that also as be-commeth Nor shall you make judgement by what followeth that I am for the Independency as I foole have called it nor for the Presbiterie neither and Governement that way I professe unto you These words are so tossed to and fro by such simple ones as my selfe that I cannot tell what to make of them or which way to take And yet can see the way cleered before me the Church way past all question for there the Scripture is cleere when yet where it speaketh out cleerly at the first sight for Presbyterie me thinks at the second view and that should be as our second thoughts are the wiser it speaketh all for Independency So that I have not understanding enough the Lord be a light and help unto it to tell my selfe for what way I am unlesse for both as they may both lead each to other and meete in one I am perswaded in my heart that so it will be they will accord meete and kisse each other Not that I can thinke the difference to be small about which there is so great difference nor the way of governement easily discernable sith so many quick-sighted men are prying thereinto yet cannot find it out But this is the ground of my perswasion because the seekers after this way doe I hope seeke Him That makes a path in a wildernesse and are fully resolved to continue seeking and in their disquisition here to keepe themselves close-up to the clue of the sacred Scriptures and to shut-out passion which a Noble Schollar of large understanding the Lord fill it with himselfe calls nothing for so much as there is of passion in the Dispute so much there is of nothing to the purpose The very best Ministers in the world are jealous over themselves in this matter and as watchfull They are zealously affected towards Church Governement in a Church

his Rhetoricks i. e. I would not help my selfe with private Letters I would neither quote them nor Heare-say not I nor would I use Satyres and Invectives though such Rhetorick finds the vulgar-eare more open then Logick reason does I would use none of all this I would deale more candidly then so and more becomming a Christian and a brother Thus I would doe make a Narration onely and declare things which I saw and heard and not another for me There I saw them bow at the Name of Iesus There cringe a little before wood and stone and there I heard them say one piece or cantle of their Service too I heard them read that thrice accursed Declaration against Gods holy day also that I did I did see them give forth their Right-hand of fellowship for the establishing of evill and overthrow of good I saw them contribute their purses and then they would their bloud too for money comes from us like drops of bloud To strengthen the hand of violence against the throats of their dearest Brethren the Scots Understand me good Reader I would rather my fingers should rot from my hand my hand from my Arme my Arme from my shoulder than that I should imploy my hand in such a worke I would only give thee to know how fruitfull the * Theame or subject matter is and how a mans owne spirit could enlarge and dilate upon it very readily But to my Question now how wouldest thou esteeme such a booke so fraught and stuffed as aforesaid for indeed my stomack riseth at the very thought of it with the failings and fallings and now the repentings of Gods servants I hope how wouldest thou esteeme such a thing such a worke for I cannot call it a booke how wouldest thou account of it or of my selfe for making such a foule piece of worke I le answere for thee and against my selfe first doubtlesse if thou mightest have thy will thou wouldst have me marked with D upon my forehead that is Devill for though I would urge nothing against my brethren upon report of Hearesay or from Letters those silent interpreters between man and man yet I might accuse my brethren of those things they have repented of and God for ought I know has pardoned and then thou wouldst call me a Devill an Accuser of my brethren And thou wouldst wish my mouth stopt and never licence given to my Pen any more So thou wouldst have me dealt withall 2. And for the book which I could make it would be sure an abomination in the eyes ears hearts of all the best learned all over the land And to thy selfe also a very loathing like thy vomit or some such lothsome thing Why then thou canst make judgement of the Anti-Apol that is such an abomination and worse for worse can be and is M. Ed. his booke which now I had done withall but that I hope to get honey out of it a great deale of use before I make an end And first I should show the mischiefes this contrariety to the rule contradiction in words strangenesse in judgements alienation in affections have caused to the Church of God But all this shall be shewen in a Parable with which I shall close-up my Answer Now Sir you can by this time tell your selfe why the most cry-up M. Edw book 1. Because the most are best pleased to see brethren stand at a distance or at a bay or comming neere hand to strive and fight each with other 2. Because the most love the broad-way and would walk in it and are full of hope now that this contention about the way shall enlarge their way and make it yet broader but they will be deceived for whether this or that way it is the way of CHRIST that is contended for by our choice men past all question 3. The most doe shut their eyes against the light and hate the truth of God Vox populi non est vox Dei If the most say it and it be touching the great things of God I shall doubt nay I shall make no question of it That GOD sayes it not If my writings any of them said Melancthon and they were all for God and His truths were pleasing to the most that should displease me most of all so as I should teare them or throw them into the fire I know how the most relish the things of God well enough and with what eyes they see The most have the least diseerning into the things of God God knowes A. Why but all the learned and good men too cry up his booke B. For what surely not for his Invention neither his Topicks there nor his Rhetoricks his Compasition indeed is pretty good his Elocution or that the Orator calls Action the All of an Orator that is all starke nought in the judgement of all the Learned sure But let the Authour have all his dues and let his Booke be called a Booke because the most say but they know not what they say that it is a good one For any further respect unto it then to call it a Book having seriously considered the generall frame scope and tendency of the said Booke I know not how to give it nay I verily beleeve that every good man will mourne over it upon these following considerations 1. Because this Booke is to the heart it comforteth those that should not be comforted the Devill and all his servants Let not the Reader be offended at this expression it is very possible for a good man to doe and speake that which may comfort as he and they can be comforted the Devill and all his servants Oh how glad the Devill is at the sight of such a Booke as this which flieth at the face of those he pursueth with deadly hatred He is called Satan an Adversary A Devill too an accuser of the bretheren If any man now will take the Devill his office accuse the bretheren divulge their faults oh how the Devill rejoyceth at this how glad his servants are Be the accusation true or be it false that matters not the bretheren are accused the Devill and his servants laugh An Isralite strives with an Isralite oh how pleasant a sight is this It will pluck back and hinder the Great-worke in hand as once it did thinks the Devill then he laughes and huggs this hope and are not all his servants as merry surely the Devill and his servants are dancing now for joy now he sees those struck at whom he hates heartily and those doctrines opposed which are the very destruction of his kingdome Surely no good man will help to make the Devill musick then sure enough he will not make such a booke as this for this is musick for the Devill You tell me you mourne over it I beleeve you and that every good man mourneth with you but he that hath given the offence much more must he m●urne God will make him else Howbeit because by this deed thou hast given great