like danger Phi. Succession alone is not sufficient to keepe men in the right faith Theo. If you ioyne trueth and holines with it as Ireneus doth no doubt they bee markes of faithfull and Godly Pastours but succession of it selfe doth neither priuilege the Teachers from error nor conduct their hearers vnto trueth because there haue beene thousands in the Church whose opinions you may not alow though you cannot disproue their elections Phi. Admit that and how then Theo. If Bishops singled may erre why not Bishops assembled which you call Councels What assurance hath their meeting to keepe them from erring Phi. The promise of our Lord where there be two or three gathered in my name there am I in the midst of them Theo. Doth our Sauiour speake only of Bishops and Councels or els of all faythful persons resorts gathered to prayer preaching or any other good intent Phi. The wordes be general and therefore belong as wel to councels as other conuents Theo. Indeed the words be generall and therefore belong no more to Councels than to any other Christian Conuents And did they specially pertain to Councels as they do not a Councell of two or three by the purport of the very wordes hath as much assurance of trueth as a Councel of three hundered It is not the number but the name in which they be gathered that guydeth and directeth them vnto trueth Phi. If our Lord haue promised to assist three gathered in his name howe much more will hee assist three hundered Theo. And yet three may see the trueth when three hundred may misse it Which I speake not to deface religious and Godly Councels but to stay the multitude from presuming their fansies to bee true religion when they bee nothing neere Phi. May Councels erre Theo. Why not Phi. What Councels Theo. Yea Councels Rebaptising of heretikes was defended by Cyprian and a Councel of Bishops with him and as Eusebius reporteth out of Dionysius decreed In maximis Episcoporum Synodis in very great Councels of Bishops The Arrians in twentie sixe yeres gathered and framed sundrie Councels for their purpose at Tyrus Ierusalem Philippi Sirmium Ariminum Seleucia Cōstantinople and two at Antioch In the Councel of Millan Aboue three hundered of the west Bishoppes consented that Athanasius should be thrust from his Bishoprike and only fiue sayd nay To the wicked edict of Basiliscus against the Councel of Chalcedon subscribed fiue hundred Bishops Gregorie Nazianzene was so out of loue with the Councels of his time that when he was sent for he praied Proropius to haue excused to the Emperour for sicknes and addeth I to write you the trueth am determined to forbeare all Councels of Bishops because I haue not seene any good euent of any Councel but rather an encrease than a redresse of our euils So that a number of badde Bishops may doe much hurt euen in Councels and the better part is not alwaies sure to be the greater Phi. Particular Councels haue erred but neuer generall Theo. If particular councels may erre why may not general what differēce find you between Prouinciall and general Councels but only the number of Persons that bee called and places whence they bee called Now what warrant I pray you haue three hundered Bishops more than two hundered or the Bishops of some countries more than the Bishops of other Countries that they cannot erre If trueth goe by tale particular Councels haue often matched and passed many generall for number of Bishops The second and sixt generall Councels had present at either but one hundered fiftie Bishops the third had but one hundered as Beda writeth and as it appeareth by their subscriptions not aboue one hundered fiftie whereas the Councel of Sardica had three hundred and so had the councel of Millan and the fourth sixt Councels of Carthage had aboue two hundered Bishops in either of them If it goe by countries then shew vs which Countries haue this priuiledge that their Bishops can not erre and which haue it not For as yet we see no cause why trueth should be tied to some numbers or nations and not to others and before we may grant them that progatiue we must see great cause and good proofe Phi. Wee doe not hold that generall Councels are defended from error by reason of any number or nations there gathered but it is wee say more likelie that many men assembled out of diuers nations shoulde light on trueth than a fewe out of one Theo. You come with likelyhoodes when wee seeke for certaineties Can you shew forth any graunt from God that generall Councels shall not erre Phi. If generall Councels might erre the church might erre which is not possible Theo. As though none were of or in the Church but onely Bishope or all the Bishops of Christendome without exception were euer present at any Councel or the greater part of those that are present might not strike the stroake without the rest When 300. are assembled in Councel and 149. take one part and 151. the other is this your profound learning that the odde voyces which make vp the greater part can neuer erre or doth the whole Church erre when falsehood hath for her selfe tenne or twelue Bishops more than trueth hath Phi. If a Councel once geue iudgement in matters of fayth who can reuerse it Theo. The rest present or absent may lawfully contradict the Councel if it wade besides trueth or against the faith When the fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decree that Bishops Priestes and Deacons should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone rose vp in the midst of their Councel and freely contradicted it The same Paphnutius when secrete enemies laboured in the Councel of Tyrus wrongfully to depose Athanasius caught Maximus the Bishop of Ierusalem by the hand and willed him to rise and forsake that conuenticle of euill men In the Councel of Millan when 300. had consented to the deposition of Athanasius Dionysius Eusebius Paulinus Lucifer and Rhodamus but fiue against fifteene skore openly and plainly withstood it The second Councell of Ephesus was reiected by many godly Bishoppes that were not present as iniurious and wicked and Leo himselfe writeth of the famous and generall councell of Chalcedon Tanquam refutari nequeat quod illicite voluerit multitudo as though that might not bee refused which a multitude hath vnlawfully decreed And making there no more account of their number though there were aboue sixe hundred fathers in that Councel he saith Nulla sibimet de multiplicatione congregationis Concilia blandiantur Let no councels flatter themselues with the great number of persons assembled Phi. You are the first that euer were of this opinion that generall Councels might erre Theo. Your owne fellowes haue beene of that opinion before vs. Panormitane the best of your canonists and Proctour for Pope
their eyes which all the godly beleeue with their heartes If oyle bee wanting they bee perfect Magistrates notwithstanding and Gods annointed as well as if they were inoyled And so for the person of the Bishoppe that doeth annoynt them It is fittest it be done by the highest but yet if they can not or will not any Bishoppe may perfourme it Authoritie to condition with Princes at the tyme of their coronation the Bishoppe hath none hee is faythfully to declare what GOD requireth at the handes of Princes not in religion onely but in rewarding vertue reuenging sinne relieuing the poore and innocent repressing the violent procuring peace and doing iustice throughout their Realmes and that if they faile in any of these God will not faile seuerely to visite the breach of his Lawe and contempt of their callings but yet hee hath no commission to denounce them depriued if they misse in some or all of these dueties much lesse to drawe Indentures betweene God and Princes conteyning the forfeiture of their crownes with a clause for the Pope and no man else to reenter if they keepe not couenants Phi. You graunt they bee bounde to God to defend the Church and true Religion Theo. Euen so bee they bound to doe those other thinges which I before rehearsed The couenaunt which God made with the Prince of his people was to feare the Lorde his God and to keepe not some but all the wordes of his Law The othe which the Kinges of Englande take hath many thinges besides the defence of the fayth and the Church The King shall feare God and loue him aboue all things and keepe gods precepts through his whole kingdome Hee shall aduance good Lawes and approoued customes and banish all euill Lawes from his kingdome Hee shal doe right iudgement in his realme and maintaine iustice by the counsell of his Nobles with many other points there specified All these thinges the King in his owne person shall sweare beholding and touching the holy Gospel in the presence of the people the Priestes and the Clergie before hee bee crowned by the Archbishoppes and Bishoppes of his Realme Shal a king bee deposed if hee reuolt as you call it from his promise and othe in any of these points Phi. Heresie and infidelitie tend directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiects and notoriously to the annoyance of the Church true Religion Theoph. Wee compare not vices but discusse the vitiousnes of your conclusion Kinges you say couenant with GOD at their annointing That othe and promise if they breake with God the people you adde may and by order of Christs supreme minister their chiefe Pastor in earth must needes breake with them If by BREAKING you ment not obeying them in those particular cases which tend to the defacing of Gods trueth your illation were not much amisse for in all things wee must obey God rather than man but by BREAKING you vnderstand an vtter refusing of obedience in all other cases and a violent remoouing them from their crownes which we say is not lawfull for Pastor nor people to atteÌ„pt against princes though they answere not their duties to God in euerie point They couenant at the same time and with the same oth the keeping and obseruing of the whole lawe of God and yet was there neuer any man so brainsicke as to defend that Princes for euerie neglect and offence against the Law should be deposed Phi. Heresie is one of the greatest breaches of Gods Law Theo. To hold the truth of God in manifest and knowen vnrighteousnes without repentance is a greater impietie than ignorantly to be deceiued in some points of religion but we stand not on the degrees of sinnes which God will reuenge from the greatest to the smallest as much as on the person which may do it and the warrant whereby it must be done We deny that Princes haue any superiour and ordinarie Iudge to heare and determine the right of their Crownes Wee deny that God hath licenced any man to depose them and pronounce them no Princes The sonne cannot desherit his father nor the seruant countermaund his master by the lawes of God and nature be the father and master neuer so wicked Princes haue farre greater honour and power ouer subiects than any man can haue ouer sonnes and seruantes They haue power ouer goods lands bodies and liues which no priuat man may chalenge They be fathers of our Countries to the which we be nearer bound by the very confession of Ethnikes than to the fathers of our flesh Howe then by Gods law should subiects depose their Princes to whom in most euident woords they must bee subiect for conscience sake though they bee tyrauntes and Infidels And if the subiects them-selues haue no such power what haue strangers to meddle or make with their Crownes Phi. Doe you count the Pope a straunger to Christian Princes Theo. Would God he were not woorse euen a mortall and cruell enimie to al that bee Godlie He was a subiect vnder them eight hundreth yeares and vpwarde he after by sedition and vsurpation grewe to bee a sâ—ate amongest them a Superiour ouer them in causes concerning their Crownes and states you shall neuer prooue him to bee For a thousand yeares he durst offer no such thing these last fiue hundreth hee often assayed it and was as often repelled from it by factions conspiracies excommunications and rebellions hee molested and grieued some of them as I haue shewed but from the ascention of our Lorde and Sauiour to this present day neuer Prince Christian did yeeld and acknowledge any such power in the Pope and those that seemed in their neighbours harmes somewhat to regard his doings for an aduauntage when the case concerned them-selues most boldlie reiected his iudgements Phi. By the fall of the King from the faith the danger is so euident and ineuitable that GOD had not sufficientlie prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church and holie Lawes if there were no way to depriue or restraine Apostata Princes Theo. You make vs many worthy reasons for the depriuation of Princes but of all others this is the cheifest If there were no way to depriue Princes God hath not say you sufficiently prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church Euen so one of your owne fellowes saide before you of the verie same poinâ—e Non viderâ—tur Dominus discretus fuisse vt cum reuerentia â—ius loquar c. The Lorde by his leaue should haue seemed scant discreete except hee had left one such Vicar behind him as might doe all things to witte depose Emperours and all other Princes Unlesse your rebellious humours may take place you stick not to charge the sonne of God with lack of discretion negligence but looke better about you ye blasphemous mouths you shall see that the Church of God is purest when
dipped his hands in his brothers bloode nor take the wages of Balaam to curse and reuile the people of God nor perish in the contradiction of Corah for resisting both God and the Magistrate but rather that wee may be sanctified and saued by the might of his word and store of his mercy laid vp in Christ his sonne for all that beleeue him and call vpon him Phi. God send vs such part as our fathers had Theo. You be so displeased with God for punishing the sinnes of your fathers with blindnes and error in these later ages that now you will none of his light nor grace though he offer it freely to saue your soules but if you will needes perish your owne bloode be on your owne heades yet haue vs excused if we thinke our sinnes heauie enough though wee adde not thereto the neglect of his worde and contempt of his trueth as you doe In the knowledge of God and reuerence of his iudgements there is a path way to repentaunce and hope of mercy in the proude dislike of his seueritie towards others and sâ—ubberne refusall of his goodnes towards our selues there is nothing but an heaping of extreme vengeaunce which shall consume the wicked and impenitent resisters of his word and spirit Phi. We be not of that number Theo. Were you not you would be more carefull to search and willing to embrace the trueth of Christ once vnderstoode with all readines and lowlines of minde knowing that God resisteth the proud and giueth grace to the humble and not with an high-looking and self-pleasing perswasion that all is yours neglect your duty to God and man Phi. We obserue both Theo. You obserue neither Subiection to your lawfull Prince you haue forsaken and not onely fledde the Realme and incited others to doe the like but the Christian alleageance which the Prince requireth of her subiects you impugne with shifts and slaunders in fauoâ—r of him who wickedly and iniuriously taketh vpon him to be the supreme Moderator of earthly kingdomes chiefe disposer of princes Crowns and so fast are you lincked in confederacie with him that in open view of all men you will allow no Prince to beare the sword longer than shall like him but proclaime rebellions of subiects against their Soueraignes to be iust honorable warres if he authorize them by his Censures And where to cloake your wicked and enormous attempts you boldely surmised that you did whatsoeuer you did for that Religion which was ancient Catholike we haue presently taken you so tardie short of your reckoning that for sixe of the greatest and cheefest points now in question betwixt the Church of England and the Church of Rome and reformed in this Realme by publike authoritie you cannot bring vs so much as one ancient euident testimony that your faith and Doctrine was euer taught or receiued in the primatiue church of christ and yet you please your selues in your owm conceits and compasse the earth to get prosilites fit for such teachers whom you may traine vp in error and vse as instruments to catch vnstable soules and fier vnquiet heades that you by them may disturbe realmes and fishe for Princes thrones and liues in troubled waters Phi. All this is as false as God is true Theo. God himselfe shall skant be trueth if you may be the iudges except hee take your parts But facing and craking laid aside you must referre the iudgement of your doings and sayings to others and not to your selues Phi. To Catholikes I am content The. They must be then of your instructing that is such as will trust neither fathers nor Scriptures against your Canons otherwise in that you haue saide they shall find no great cause to like your impugning the Princes power right to establish Lawes within her owne lande without the Popes leaue and to hold her Crowne against his censures and as litle shall they find to cal you or count you Catholikes Phi. Men of your own pitch will soone assent to any thing Theo. Let them be but indifferent and weigh what you haue brought Phi. More we can bring when we see our times The It skilleth not how much but how sound that is which you can bring Phi. Of that hereafter and yet in the meane time there be many other thinges besides these that you haue handled that must be discussed before we can be pronounced no Catholikes And as in these you seeeme with wresting and wrenching to haue some aduantage so in those we could forthwith confound you The. Euen as you haue doone in these Phi. A great deale more readily if I had time to stay the triall of them but this holy tide I must spend in other matters of more importance Theo. What In spredding newes that the king of Spain doth stay but for the next summer Phi. We meddle not with forraine affaires Theo. A number of you be better seene in policie than in diuinitie you were borne belike to be rulers though it be but of Rebels as Sanders was that thought it a praise to take the field in person against his Prince Phi. My trauell is not to that end Theo. You leaue that for others and trauel to sound the harts of your adherents whether they be in number welth and zeale likely and readie to giue assistance if any should inuade Phi. What vnchristian coniectures you haue of vs Theo. None but such as your owne deedes and wordes occasion Phi What cause haue we giuen you to speake this of vs Theo. What greater cause can you giue than openly to auouch as you haue done in your Defence of Catholiks as you call them yâ— rebellions against such Princes as the Pope deposeth are godly iust honourable wars Phi. If hee may depose them they are Theo. You haue in print affirmed both and sought to proue them with all your might and therefore what shal we thinke your secret whispering and reconâ—ling to the Church of Rome is but a craftie bayte of Malcontentes to make rebels Phi. The parties themselues can witnesse we neuer mention any such thing in our absolution To them we appeale for record Theo. For my part I thinke you doe not It were too grosse conspiracie treason to take vowes and oths of subiects against their Prince by name and therefore if you should take that open course you were worthie to ride to Tyburne not only for traytors but also for disards But when you reconcile them you take assurance of them by vow oth or other adiuration that they shall embrace the Catholike faith and hold Communion vnitie with the Church of Rome for euer after Phi. Why should we not Theo. Then when it pleaseth my Lord the Pope to depriue the Prince and to excommunicate al that assist or agnise her for a lawfull magistrate what must your reconciled sort doe Is it not against their oth faith giuen to you at their restitution to
to this infection might perceiue the way to recouer their former health temperatly that the enimy should not thinke himselfe rather illuded then aunswered Which if it please your most excellent Maiestie to like alow that it may passe to the hands of your people I trust in Christ that such as haue any feare of God before their â—yes and care of life to come will hold themselues satisfied and the rest be better aduised before they runne headlong into that extreeme perdition of bodie soule and horrible downefall of disobedience and infidelity to God and their Prince The king of kings and Lord of Lordes blesse and preserue your Maiestie and as hee hath begun a good and glorious worke in you and in this Realme by you so continue the same by lightening you with his holie Spirit and defending you with his mightie arme as hee hath doone from the daie that hee chose you to bee the Leader and Guider of his People that you maie long keepe them in trueth and peace by the assistaunce of his grace to the praise of his glorie increase of the Godlie and griefe of his and your enimies Euen so Lord Iesus Your Maiesties most humble and dutifull subiect THOMAS BILSON THE GENERALL CONTENTS of euerie part The first part Examineth all the proofes and places of the Iesuits Apologie their forsaking the Realme and running to Rome what aid the Fathers sought at Rome and how the Bishop thereof in all ages hath beene resisted the intent of his Seminaries and vertues of his Clergy The second part Prooueth the Princes supreme power to commaund for truth within her Realme and the Pope to haue beene a duetifull subiect to the Romane Emperors Ecclesiastical Lawes for eight hundred yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour iudge The third part Refelleth the Iesuits reasons and authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes the bearing of armes by subiects against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies and iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings Princes conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thousand yeres after Christ and none agnised by anie Christian Prince vntil this present day The fourth part Sheweth the reformation of this Realme to be warranted by the woord of God and the auncient faith of Christs Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to bee nothing lesse than Catholikes To the Christian Reader IT is some time since good Christian Reader that lighting on the Iesuits Apologie I receiued the same with purpose to refute it if the matter so imported Perusing it ouer I found it curiouslie penned with picked termes and beautified with plausible and popular persuasions reasons but as for substaÌ„ce or learning or weight of proofe I saw nothing in it that should occupie a meane Scholer the space of two daies Laying that booke therefore aside I determined at mine own choice and libertie to handle the matters there most impugned I meane the othe and the Princes supremacy in such sort as men of meane capacitie abused by their secret whisperinges and open raylings might plainly perceiue both the Princes power to commaund for truth to be lawfull and good and the Iesuits cauils impugning the same to be vaine and childish As I was in this resolution saw no cause for that I should refute no direct aduersarie to make more hast than both health which was not great businesse which I cannot want would suffer me there hapned an iniurie to bee offered to the inheritance of the College where I am by a false title deriued from before the foundation of the house and so strengthened on euery side with auncient deedes and euidence that the forgerie was hard to bee discerned and harder to be conuinced but by infinite searching in the muniments of many churches and Bishopricks as well as in our owne and re-examining sundrie large and laborious commissions which they had taken out before my time to testifie the keeping and iustifie the deliuering of those suspected deedes and ligiers To the deâ—ecting and impugning of this no person was or would be vsed I speake for the paines and not for the skill but my selfe the cause was so huge the comparing of the circumstances and contrarieties both of deeds and witnesses so tedious the proofe so perplexed and intricate and the daunger so neerely touched the whole state of the house I was forced for two yeares to lay all studies aside and addict my selfe wholy first to the deprehending and then to the pursuing of this falsehood No sooner had I breathed from this vnwoonted trauell and betaken my selfe to my former purpose but my happe was to light on the Iesuites Defence of English Catholikes not hauing the Authors name but in order of writing and phrase of speech resembling right D. Allen the maker of their Apologie Looking earnestly into the contents thereof I perceiued the pen-man to haue such confidence in his tongue that hee doubted not but to ouerrule the world with words his pretensed policies So far he wadeth in other mens causes and common wealthes So boldly he pronounceth what himselfe pleaseth of Popes and princes and of their titles Counselles Lawes and actions neither alloweth hee any man to bee religious or catholike but such as him-selfe liketh and euerie-where hee sheweth a speciall care to smooth and stroke his holy Fathers indeuors and censures actes and iudgementes warres and wickednesse with termes of the greatest deuotion and reuerence subiecting all things vnder his feete inuesting him with both swords and suffering no man king nor Cesar to haue assurance of honor or life longer than he kneeleth downe and adoreth the image of the beast In this maiestical course surrly conceit hee goeth on thinking he can captiuate kingdomes with the volubilitie and intemperauncy of his tongue which is so swift to furnish a lie that he disdaineth the basenesse plainesse of trueth The saucinesse and egernesse of that Defence I was then and am yet persuaded to ouerskip as hauing learned that princes affaires and actions are aboue my vocation and wholy without my profession neither doe I thinke it lawfull for priuate men rashly to speake or possible for them vprightly to iudge of Princes doinges vnlesse they be fully acquainted with the secretes and circumstances of the things which Princes vse not to commit to many nor to any but those that are of their counsell I therefore then did now do determine to leaue this peremptorie prater whosoeuer he be to his own vaine knowing that besides open rightes and titles secret preuentions are often vsed betweene Realmes and sometimes reuenges which Magistrates by lawful meanes may procure Onely the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all his skill learning
for the studie of diuinitie is as deepely layed as theirs our diligence rather more than theirs our time both of age and studie more complete than theirs cōmonly can bee our order methode course of diuinitie much more profitable than theirs we haue moe disputations lessons conferences examinations repetitions instructions catechizings resolutions of cases both of conscience and controuersie methodes and manners to proceede to the conuersion of the deceiued and such like exercises in our two Colleges thā are in their two Vniuersities cōtayning neere hand 30. goodly Colleges As for the Masters professors of our Colleges specially the Romane readers we may be bold to say They be in all kind the most choyse and cunning men of Christendom for vertue learning c. Nowe for that part of education which pertayneth to Christian life manners our chiefe endeuour is in both the Colleges to breede in our scholers deuotion c. Which is done by diuers spirituall exercises as dayly examinations of their consciences often communicating or receiuing the. B. Sacrament much praying continuall hearing and meditation of holy things Phi. Can you in all this charge him with a lye Theo. Whether it bee true or false that he saith we neither care nor come to discusse The comparison of wits ages and exercises would rather beseeme boyes in the schoole than diuines in the Church this vaunting of vertue learning oftē communicating much praying continuall meditation of holy thinges is fitte for Pharisees vnfit for Christians Better is sayth Austen an humble confession in doing euill than a proud vaunt in doing well Phi. To speake truth is no vaunt Theo. To speake trueth in the commendation of your selues is the greatest pride you can shewe Let an other man prayse thee sayth Salomon and not thine owne mouth But this is the iust reward of your error that you take notable paynes to please your selues with an inward perswasion of your owne worthines to be reuerenced of others for the deepenes of your learning holines of your liues which desire of glorie so possesseth your heads that when other heraults fayle you you sticke not openly to the whole world to blaze your owne vertues Phi. We neuer spake but forced that in the necessarie defence of our selues Theo. Who forced Campion to write backe to Rome not only what admiration but what veneration a worde fitter for Saints than friers himselfe and his bande of Iesuites had gotten in England by their singular learning and holines The Priests saith hee of our societie they excelling in knowledge and sanctitie haue raysed so great an opinion of our order that the veneratiō which the Catholiques yeeld vs I thinke not good to be spokē but fearefully The framer of your Apologie what occasion had hee to braue both Uniuersities in such sort as he doth as well with the scholasticall as spiritual exercises of your two Colleges but only that he would haue the Iesuites waxe famous for the greatnes of their skill and purenes of their liues that the chiefest praise might redound to him selfe and others the Masters and Gouernours of those two Colleges Phi. We were charged in open proclamation that we liued contrary to the lawes of God and the Realme Theo. And doth your dayly disputing or much praying discharge you from that Phi. It sheweth our domesticall conuersation to be honest and orderly Theo. That is nothing to this purpose The Princes Edict did not meane your priuate disputatiōs or deuotions of which you cracke but obiected vnto you that you trayned vp your scholers in false and erroneous doctrine and vsed them to lewde and vngodly purposes as to withdrawe the people from their obedience to God and the Magistrate Phi. Let your Edict meane what it will our Apologie cleareth vs from all that was vntruely surmised against vs and I am right glad you haue seene the booke for there shall you find vs sufficiently proued to be both good subiects and good Catholiques notwithstanding your often and earnest inuectiues to the contrary Theo. If facing and cracking will doe the deede the conquest is yours Your defender hath fraighted his booke with so many solemne protestations patheticall exclamations and confident asseuerations but to the wiser sort that are led with euident trueth not with eloquent speach vnlesse you make some better demonstration of your integritie to God and your Prince than I yet see you bee like to goe neither for good subiects nor for good Catholiques Phi. Can you wish for a better than our Apologie Theo. I neuer mette with a worse Phi. What doth it lacke Theo. Not wordes they be copious curious enough but I neuer sawe fewer or weaker proofes Phi. What one poynt is there left vnproued Theo. Nay what one thing haue you iustly proued Phi. Come to the parts The first chapter giueth the reasons of our leauing this lande and liuing beyonde the seas what say you to those bee they not euident be they not sufficient Theo. Repeate them your selfe lest I chaunce to misse them Phi. The vniuersall Lacke of the Soueraigne sacrifice and Sacraments Catholiquely ministred without which the soule of man dyeth as the body doeth without corporall foode this constraint to the contrary seruices whereby men perish euerlastingly this intollerable othe repugnant to God the Church her Maiesties honour and all mens consciences and the dayly dangers disgraces vexations feares imprisonments empouerishments despites which they must suffer and the raylings and blasphemies against Gods Sacraments Saints Ministers and all holies which they are forced to heare in our Countrie are the onely causes why so many of vs are departed out of our naturall Countrey and doe absent our selues so long from that place where we had our being birth and bringing vp These they be what fault find you with them Theo. The selfe same that I finde with the rest of your Apologie You say what you list and neuer offer to proue that you say your bare word is your best argument and other authoritie than your owne you produce not Phi. The matter is so manifest that it needeth no proofe Theo. That presumption is so foolish that it needeth no refuter Phi. If you doubt or deny them wee bee readie to proue them Theo. That must you first doe before wee refell them Yet lest you should glorie too much of your paynted sheath the replie to your first chapter may shortly bee this The sacrifice which Christ offered on the crosse for the sinnes of the worlde wee beleeue with all our heartes and reuerence with all our might accounting the same to bee perfect without wanting eternall without renewing and this is our Soueraigne sacrifice The Lordes table which himselfe ordeined to bee the memoriall of his death and passion wee keepe and continue in that maner and forme that hee first prescribed and this may bee called and is a sacrifice both in respect of the thankes there giuen to God
for the redemption of man and the bloodshedding of our Sauiour expressed and resembled in that mysterie More than this no Catholique father euer taught and lesse than this our Churches doe not receiue Touching the Sacramentes I meane baptisme and the Supper if Christ and his Apostles did minister them Catholiquely wee can not fayle but doe the same wee swarue not a iote from their example the Scriptures will not lye let them bee iudges Shewe but one worde element or action added omitted or altered in either of them and we graunt your Apologie to be sound and good which otherwise we see to be replenished with many spitefull slaunders and shamefull errors But if the Catholicisme which you stand on were not knowen to them as in truth it was not the lacke of some ceremonies which be matters indifferent and set your abuses aside may be kept or left without hurting the faith or offending the godly can bee no iust cause for you to flie the realme and forsake the Prince The diuine seruice here established you may lewdly despise you shall hardly disproue the Psalmes that we sing be Dauids the bookes that we read be Canonical the praiers that we make be consonant to the rule proportiō of faith true godlines quitting them for our owne parts to the present possessioners incombents or to whom soeuer God shall permit Theo. You fled the Realme not forced to that extremitie but moued with a priuate dislike of the Princes regiment and therefore if the lack of your Countrey were not eased by many supplies both abroade as you graunt and from home as we know you may thanke your selues you were the first autors and wilfull contriuers of your owne woe You want no commodities nor curtesies in the common wealthes where you liue yet such is your Nicenes that you can not beare the ordinarie difficulties and accidents that follow strangers in euery place without sorowfull bewayling before God and often lamenting one to another the hard state of your long banishment Your dayly praiers haue their dayly purposes your continuall sighes and teares shewe the secret griefe you conceiue to see your counsels disclosed and attempts defeated which rather enforceth the sharpnes of your humor than the goodnes of your cause That you be willing to come home wee well beleeue howbeit that proueth not your departure lawful nor your returne peaceable The Wolfe would fayne be with the sheepe and the Lion is glad to bee with his pray Yet this is no token of their friendly meaning To preuent all suspicion of euill you deepely protest that you voyd your thoughts of honour and preferment relinquishing those to the present incumbents and addressing your selues to serue the poore soules to their saluation The strife betwixt vs is not for Bishoprickes and benefices but for Christs glorie and the Princes safetie whom God hath appointed both your and our Soueraigne and therefore your renouncing of titles and dignities before hand sauoreth of your accustomed vanitie and nothing concerneth the matter Saluation of soules is well pretended but ill perfourmed Your bores of oyle your glasses of holy water your fardles of other consecrated trifles wherewith you haue fraighted this Realme are slender helpes to saue soules nay rather your reconciling of those that receiue you to the Sea of Rome your trayning them to neglect of the scriptures and reuerence of your fansies your leading them from the Church of God and communion of their brethren to your barbarous and Idolatrous Masse your withdrawing them from their obedience to the Princes wholesome and Christian lawes is their vtter destruction and your assured condemnation Yet to proue your selues louing wormes you wish to be admitted to your Countrie in what state soeuer were it in penance and pouertie neuer so great euen so the snake being frozen lyeth quiet and still waxing once warme hee vseth not onely to stirre but also to sting Your sugred words can not sweeten the bitternes of your actions God hath blessed her Maiestie with greater respect of religion than to suffer the veneme of your doctrine to poyson her people and with better intelligence of your drifts than to harbour a rowte of Iesuites the very forerunners and factours of her open and professed enemie The Pageants of your holy father and founder were so lately tried and are so iustly feared that her highnes neither with her safetie may neither of her wisedome will permit you to beginne a newe reuell Her graue and worthie Counsell perceiue that a small leake sinketh a strong vessell and the least sparke kindleth a mightie flame Phi. Call you this answering You say what you list without warrant or witnes Theo. And what did you when you sent vs ouer whole chapters yea the most part of your Apologie bringing no better nor other reason nor proofe than your simple worde which is God knoweth a single proofe Phi. You will hardly speake well of our doings or writings Theo. Let your booke be seene If I lye reproue me Your first chapter hath in all fiue authorities and not one of them toucheth any matter in question The three first shewe that certaine Arrian Emperours suffered true and false religion in one Citie a proper president for Christian Princes the two next proue that godly men assembled in priuate houses when they coulde not in Churches for feare of persecution Wee neuer sayde otherwise Your seconde chapter hath fiue other places besides the first booke of Bede which wee doubt not of Three declaring that the Romanes twelue hundred yeres agoe were deuout and charitable which is nothing to our dayes or your purpose the other two you safely enforce to helpe the Sea of Rome and yet were they so ment they conclude but coldly for you Your third chapter alleageth S. Austen twise mary not against vs but at rouers to make vp your reckoning and once S. Hierom warning a gentlewoman of Rome to preferre the fayth of Innocentius and Anastasius which at that time he knew to be sound and syncere before certaine poysoned plants then freshly springing in Rome This aduise wee refuse not and at this day we seeke to recall your holy father from his newe found heresie and tyrannie to the right imitation of their fayth and humilitie that were godly learned and auncient bishops in that Sea before him On your fourth and fift chapters which are the chiefe strength and force of your Apologie you bestowe some more cost but not much or at lest not much to the matter in question Your fourth chapter euen at first entrance you fill the page with eleuen texts of scriptures declaring what promises assistance from God the true preachers and ministers of his word haue then alleage you S. Paul prohibiting women to teach or speake in the Church and S. Peter calling Princes humane creatures these be things that wee neither doubt of nor striue for This done you draw neere the
sayth our sauiour a stranger they follow not but flee from him And in baptisme you receiued no mans marke but his for that cause stand bound to regard no mans voyce but his alone Doubt you this Then view the Commission that Christ sent you to baptise with Goe teach all nations baptising them in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost teaching them to obserue all the things which I haue coÌ„manded you This text needeth no gloze Baptisme bindeth no man to the Bishop or Church of Rome but to the wil precepts of Christ. Therfore proue your religion seruice which you stoutly but falsely terme Catholike to be coÌ„manded by Christ or els women children be they neuer so seely wil collect by the manifest words of our sauiour that their promise in baptisme doth streitly bind them from beleeuing your errors admitting your masses vntill you shew good and effectuall warrant out of the word of God that you do what Christ did and teach what he taught without adding or altering any iot For this is the duetie that baptisme requireth of vs to beleeue no teacher but one which is Christ to followe no stranger to regard obey no Lord or lawmaker in the Church but only the sonne whom the father appointed to be Master leader and ruler of the Gentiles And as for your odious outcrie since the lawes of this Realme force you to nothing but what is directly commanded in the scriptures as by discussing your Apologie shal appeare you vowed wheÌ„ you were Christened to beleeue obey the will of God reueiled in his word let the worlde iudge whether your Soueraigne offer you wrong in seeking with milde and gentle correction to reforme your frowardnes or you rather forgetting your promise to God and duetie to your Prince take the way to forsake the Christian faith withstand authoritie Phi. It is against your owne doctrine in other nations that any should be forced to religion Theo. When you note the places and name the men I will answere you more directly than I can at this present to so generall an obiection Howbeit with what face can you reproue the sober and moderate proceedings of his Realme which reuenge the smalest contempt of your idle ceremonies with vnsufferable torments for shame rebuke not that in others which in your selues is most rife But graunt some wel disposed persons happily warned you that true religion vseth to perswade not to compell that God did rather teach than exact the knowledge of himselfe and winning credite to his precepts by the strangenes of his heaueÌ„ly woÌ„ders despised the wil that is forced to confesse him Their purpose was to moue your clergy to delight rather in teaching than in tormenting their brethren They thought it a strange and new kind of preaching for bishops to driue men to beleeue with whipping as Bonner did or else they detested your violent and furious maner of compulsion which neither tooke pains to persuade nor alowed meÌ„ time to learn those things which you forced them to beleeue They knewe that if such as wander astray should be terrified not instructed it might be couÌ„ted a wicked ouerruling Or last of al if they spake resolutely without limitation they were nusâ—ed with ouermuch pitie which also beguiled S. Austen at the first in the selfe same point vntil he tooke better aduisemeÌ„t I was once so minded saith he that I thought no man ought to be forced to Christian vnitie but that we shoulde deale by perswading striue by disputing conquere by reasoning least they prooued dissembling Catholiques whom we knewe professed heretiques Our doctrine which you say maketh so much for you is this that your Prelats should not make it their occupation to persecute to death al sorts ages and sexes which refuse your schole trickes or reiect the dregs of your Clementines and Decretals but rather with mildnes patience seeke to recouer such as you thinke lost yet in Princes who beare the sword and are Gods Liuetenants not only to procure peace betweene men but also by lawes to maintaine â—â—â—igioÌ„ towards God we neither did nor do dispraise moderate correction when neede so requireth only we would haue such as stray from truth corrected not murdered For it neuer pleased any good men in the Catholique Church that heretikes should be put to death as Austen affirmeth Many lawes were made to punish them but no Princes law commanded theÌ„ to be slaine Yea the Lorde doth not forbid to skatter the couents of heretikes to stop their mouthes to barre them freedom of speach but to murder and kil them that he forbiddeth saith Chrisostome And therefore your tyranous barbarous hauocke of olde yong men women learned vnlearned we detest with heart and disswade with tongue wishing al Princes to folow the steps of Gratian Theodosius Arcadius Honorius other Christian Emperours who with conuenient sharpnes of positiue laws amerced banished diuersly punished heretikes yet none receiued iudgement of death except only the Maniches whose monstrous blasphemies in agnising the deuil for a god beastly defiling the sacred Eucharist deserued no lesse Such manifold coactions decreed by vertuous Princes when the Donatists rayled at for life the learned catholike father S. Austen earnestly defended to be lawful highly coÌ„mended in sundrie places Thinkest thou saith he to Vincentius no man ought to be forced to righteousnes wheÌ„ as thou readest that the master said to his seruants Compel al that you find to come in and also that Paul was forced to receiue embrace the truth by the great and violent coÌ„pulsioÌ„ of Christ except thou iudge goods landes dearer to men than their eyes Where is nowe sayth hee to Bonifacius that which these Donatists harp at so much it is free for a man to beleue or not to beleue what violence did Christ vse whom did he compel behold Paul for an example Let them marke in him Christ first coÌ„pelling afterward teaching first striking theÌ„ comforting Let them not mislike that they be forced but examine whereto they be forced And citing that part of the second Psalme Be wise ye kings vnderstand ye that iudge the earth serue the Lord in feare how do saith he kings serue the Lord in feare but when they forbid and punish with a religious seueritie those things which are done against the commandements of God as Ezekiah did serue him by destroying the groues and temples buylt against the precepts of God as Iosiah did in like manner as the king of Niniueh did forcing the whole Citie to please God as Nabuchodonosor did restraining all his subiects from blaspheming God with a dreadfull lawe Gaudentius reason that the peace of Christ inuited such as were willing but forced no man vnwilling the same father refuteth in this wise Where you thinke that none must be forced to truth against their
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather
aduantage Theo. How loth you be to come to that which at length you must For say Philander might the Councell of Constance do that which they did or no You holde a Wolfe by the eares I can tell you Phi. The truth is I finde my selfe in some straite If I say they did well then I confesse that a Councell may lawfully resist and depriue the Pope for all this they did if I say they did euill then must the Councell of Constance be schismaticall in offering Christs Uicar so great and open wrong and the Church of Rome yea the Catholike Church that allowed and honored their actes and decrees fowly deceiued and Martin the Sixt whom this Councell elected and the Christian world obeied no lawfull successour but a violent intruder which God forbidde I shoulde affirme Theo. Then if you dare not say the Synode did euill you must yeelde they did wel and consequently the point which you first doubted is fully proued that a Councell may lawfully controle correct and depose the Pope notwithstanding you make him chiefe iudge on earth head of the whole Church Phi. Was Pope Iohn lawfully chosen Theo. You search euery angle but in truth you can not scape Phi. Platina saith some such thing Theo. So some would shift the matter but if his entrie to the Popedome were not good his summoning the Councell of Constance could not bee good and so this Synode neuer lawfully called Next the Councell did not reiect him as vnorderly chosen nor disclaime him for no Bishop but remoued him from the function which he had as vnworthy the same And their generall decree by which they define the Pope to be subiect to the Councel must not be referred to wrongfull inuadors but wholy restrained to lawfull possessors of the Romane See else no masterie for the Councell to bee superiour to those that were no Popes but onely vsurpers And therefore if there were any fault in his election since the Councell did omit the same in his depriuation and proceeded against him for other crimes it can do you small pleasure Phi. Did hee not submit himselfe to their definitiue sentence and with his owne mouth ratifie their actes whatsoeuer before they ventered to depose him Theo. When Pope Iohn sawe the Duke of Austria proscribed and adiudged by the Emperour to forfeit all his goodes and landes for helping and receiuing him in his flight and himselfe now brought backe and kept in prison to abide the determination of the Councell and foule matters obiected against him and witnesses produced and examined vpon the same being already suspended from his Popedom by the Councell then required to say for his defence what he coulde and warned against the next day to bee present in the Councell to heare the iudgement that should be giuen vpon the premisses what maruell if hee seeing no way to preuent that which the Synod would execute thought better to please them with a forced humilitie than to prouoke them to farther bitternesse with a bolde defiance But did the Councell ground themselues vpon that his submission or else did they deriue their authoritie from Christ without the Pope aboue the Pope Phi. I know they chalenged their power immediatly from Christ. Theo. By that you may see they ment to exclude the Popes consent allowance which also well appeared by their doings For they cited suspended conuicted imprisoned assigned him a tearme to receiue iudgement before euer he came to that submission And last of all if you could light on it there is a great difference betweene confessing the proces referring himselfe to the discretion of the Councell which Pope Iohn did at length much against his stomake authorizing the Iudges to proceede which they neither did aske nor would accept at his handes And least you should thinke I mistake the Councel of Constance the Councel of Basil which began 14. yeares after doth not only confirme that which I defend but also repute you for heretikes that egerly withstand it Their words be these Veritas de potestate Concilij generalis supra Papam declarata per Constantinēse hoc Basiliense Concilia generalia est veritas fidei Catholicae veritas haec Papa generale Concilium actu legitimè congregatum sine eius cōsensu nullatenus potest autoritatiue dissoluere aut ad aliud tempus prorogare aut de loco ad locum transferre veritas est fidei Catholicae Veritatibus duabus praedictis pertinaciter repugnās est cēsendus haereticus This position that a general councell hath power ouer aboue the Pope declared in the generall councell of Constance Basill is a truth of the catholike faith Againe that the Pope by no means can dissolue defer or translate a generall councell lawfully called once sitting of his own authoritie without the consent of the said councell this is likewise a truth of the catholike faith These two former truthes he that stifly denieth must be taken for an heretike Now choose whether you will forgo your assertion or else abide the verdict of your own Councell Phi. Against the Councel of Basill much might be saide if time and place did serue Theo. Time and place do serue except you relent by their illation to conclude you an heretike Phi. That Councell was neither generall nor lawfull Theo. It is not enough for you to say the worde you must tell vs why Phi. They bent themselues against Eugenius the fourth and did what they could to thrust him from his Seate Theo. Perhaps Eugenius deserued no lesse Phi. No they did it vpon a faction in fauour of the Duke of Millan that hated Eugenius Theo. Contention is no iust exception against a Synode For so you may refuse the best that euer were But what can you say why the Councell of Basill shoulde not be counted in your Church both lawfull and generall Was it not orderly summoned as your manner is Were not all nations called The Bull of Martin the fift is extant by the which the Councell was first indicted and Eugenius himselfe that struggled a while to dissolue the Councell was glad at length to chaunge his tune and to retract all that hee had done in derogation of the Synode and with an other Bull fairely subscribed with the Cardinalles handes to confirme and confesse the Councell of Basill to bee a generall sacred and lawfull Councell And here you shall see a plaine president that the Princes and Bishops assembled at Basill not onely resisted Eugenius labouring what hee could to disperse them but also forced him to yeeld and acknowledge the lawfulnesse of their Synode Eugenius saith Platina much distressed first with warres on euery side next for that he saw the councell of Basill began by Pope Martins decree daily increase the Princes of Spaine Fraunce Germanie and Pannonie repairing thither and referring the common cause of christendom to the iudgement of the councell meaning to shut
Phi. It may Theo. Should corrupt false Religion be displaced banished and the spredders of it dispersed skattered Phi. In any case Theo. Ought malefactors against God as heretikes blasphemers sorcerers idolaters such other transgressours of the first table to be reuenged and punished as well as offenders against men and the breakers of the second table Phi. What else Theo. Can any man freely permit safely defend generally restrayne and externally punish within a realme but onely the Prince Phi. None Theo. Then if these things needfully must and lawfully may bee done for Christ and his Church none can doe them but Magistrates it is euident that the Princes power charge doth stretch vnto thinges causes that bee spirituall as well as temporall Or if S. Austens wordes do better please you that Princes may command that which is good and prohibite that which is euill within their kingdomes not in ciuile affaires onely but in matters also that concerne diuine Religion Phi. Did the Christian Princes in the primatiue Church since the cōming of Christ commaund punish in matters Ecclesiasticall Theo. If their examples do not concur with my former proofes good leaue haue you to beleeue neither if they do take heede you withstand not a manifest truth And here you shal choose whether you will haue a short report or a large rehearsal of their doings Socrates touching them all saith We therefore make mention of Emperors throughout this historie for that since they became Christians Ecclesiastical matters depend on them the greatest Synods haue been and are yet called by their appointment And Alciat a man of your own side Nemim dubiū est quin in primatiua ecclesia de rebus personis ecclesiast c. THERE CAN BE NO DOVBT saith he but in the primatiue Church Emperors had the iurisdiction that is the ruling and gouerning of persons and causes Ecclesiasticall Ius dicere referred to Princes is not to decide matters in question by law for so did Iudges not Princes but to make lawes and betweene lawmakers gouernors you can find litle difference for by publike lawes commāding good punishing euil princes do chiefly gouerne Then if christian Monarks in the primatiue church guided ecclesiastical matters persons by their imperiall lawes as this learned famous lawier putteth vs out of doubt they did you must shew when how they forfeited this power If it were thē lawful vsual how can it be now strange vsurped If there be no doubt of this with what cōscience do you not doubt but deny this Perhaps you disdaine the witnesse Alciat in euery respect was well learned in his faculty which was law deserueth more credit than the best of you yet least I should seeme to presse you with names not with proofes let vs view the proceedings of some Christiā Emperors and iudge you whether they be not both ancient and euident What power Constantine claimed vsed in causes ecclesiasticall the foure books of Eusebius other church stories describing the lawes letters acts of Cōstantine beare witnes sufficient First he gaue the christiās free liberty to professe their religion built them places of praier at his own charges entreated their bishops with all possible fauor honor Next he prohibited the gentiles their ancient vsual idolatries diuinatiōs oracles images sacrifices Heretiks he debarred not only churches secret conuents but excluded them also from the priuileges which him-selfe had prouided for Catholike persons If Constantines example deserue to be praised followed which no man except he be void of common sense wil gainsay then may christian Princes in the right of their scepter sword I meane their publike vocation charge without seeking any farther warrāt from Rome forbid wicked and idolatrous superstition admit and assist to the best of their power the preaching of the trueth sequester heretikes from the dignities and liberties graunted to good and religious subiectes for so did Constantine whose godly vertues and happie paines all nations then imbraced all ages since confessed all Princes now should imitate Besides this he did many thinges both for spredding the faith guiding the church of Christ worthy great cōmendation By my ministery saith this good Emperor mākind is brought to the keeping obseruing of the most sacred law by the seruice which I perform to God al things euery where directly speaking of things ecclesiasticall are setled in order yea the barbarous nations which til this time knew not the truth now praise the name of God sincerely whom they reuerēce for dread of vs. Towards the church of Christ he shewed an excellēt special care calling coūcels of bishops when any dissention sprang as a common bishop ouerseer appointed by God not disdaining to be present confer with them the rather to keep thē al in christian peace For his maner was in their synods not to sit idle but to marke aduisedly what euery man said to help their either side disputing to tēper such as kindled too fast to reason mildly with ech part vndertake iointly with thē to search out the truth confirming their decrees with his seal least other tēporal iudges rulers should infringe them When occasiō serued him not to gather a coūcel he did by writing aduertise the parties dissenting of his opiniō iudgemēt interposing himself as an arbiter in their cōtrouersies somtimes Prescribing the bishops what was profitable for the church of God somtimes the people to which end he wrot many letters emitting neither rebukes nor threats whē need so required Whē the coūcel of Tyrus was gathered by his edict he cōmāded thē first to discusse the truth of such crimes as were pretēded against Athan. who was loth to come before thē saue that he feared the thretning letters of Const. writtē to this effect If any which I think not in contēpt of our mādate fail to come before you we wil send a warrāt frō our roial autority that he shal be banished to teach him what it is for bishops clerks to withstād the precept of the chief ruler defending the truth Athan. the bishops of his part appeared but finding the coūcel very partial protested against thē appealed frō thē in these words Because we see many things spitefully cōtriued against vs much wrōg offred the catholik church vnder our names we be forced to request that the debating of our maters may be kept for the princes most excellēt person we can not bear the drifts iniuries of our enimies therfore require the cause to be referred to the most religious deuout emperor before whō we shal be sufferd to stād in our own defēces plead the right of the church Yet to preuēt the worst Athan. himself fled to Constant. beseeching him to send for the bishops examine their acts
For Noli te extollere sed esto Deo subditus exalt not thy selfe but bee subiect to God you say Exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure and suppresse the rest which should declare when a Prince exalteth himselfe aboue his measure to wit when he is not subiect to God The next wordes which you bring When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishops are not found Ibidem as you quote them that is Epistola 33 ad sororem but Epistola 32 ad Valentinianum Imperatorem And In causa fider In a matter of faith which Ambrose addeth you leaue out in the first sentence though you double it at y◠latter end These scapes I will winke at and come to the words themselues Thinke not thy selfe to haue any Emperial right ouer diuine things Neither do we say Princes haue for an emperial right is to commaund alter and abrogate what they think good which is lawful neither for men nor Angels in diuine matters Palaces are for Princes and Churches for Priests this was truely saide if you know not the reason Churches were first appointed for publike praier and preaching which belong to the Priests and not to the Princes function And for that cause Bishops were to teach Princes which was the right faith Princes were not to teach the Bishops much lesse to professe thēselues iudges of trueth as Valentinian did when he said Ego debeo iudicare I ought to bee iudge whether Christ be God or no for that was the question between the Arrians and Ambrose and that was the word which S. Ambrose stoutly but wisely refused When we say that Princes be iudges of faith bring S. Ambrose against vs and spare not but we bee farther off from that impietie to make men iudges ouer God than you be Doe you not make the Prince iudge of faith Theo. You know we do not Phi. Produce not vs for witnesses we know no such thing Theo. Your own acts shall depose for vs if your mouthes will not If we make Princes to bee iudges of faith why were so many of vs consumed not long since in England with fier and fagot for disliking that which the Prince and the Pope affirmed to be faith Why at this day doe you kill and murder elsewhere so many thousands of vs for reiecting that as false religion which the kings princes of your side professe for true If wee make Princes iudges why do we rather loose our liues than stand to their iudgemēts Your stakes that yet be warm your swords that yet be bloodie do witnes for vs and against you that in matters of faith we make neither Prince nor Pope to be iudge God is not subiect to the iudgemēt of man no more is his trueth Phi. What power then do you giue to Princes Theo. What power so euer we giue them we giue them no power to pronounce which is trueth Phi. What do you then Theo. Neuer aske that you know Haue we spent so many words and you now to seeke what we defend But you see S. Ambrose maketh nothing for you And therefore you picke a quarell to the question Phi. S. Ambrose would not yeeld Valentinian the Emperour so much as a Church in Millan and when hee was willed to appeare before the Emperour in his consistorie or els depart the Citie he would do neither Theo. You care not to fit your purpose though you make S. Ambrose a sturdie rebell You would fayne find a president to colour your headynes against the Prince but in Ambrose you can not his answere to Valentinian was stout but lawfull constant but Christian as the circumstances of the facts will declare Valentinian a yong Prince incensed by Iustina his mother and other Eunuches about him willed Ambrose to come and dispute with Auxentius the Arrian in his consistorie before him and hee would bee iudge whether of their two religions were truest and which of them twaine shoulde bee Bishop of Millan Auxentius or Ambrose otherwise to depart whither he would To this Ambrose made a sober and duetifull answere in defence of himselfe and his cause and gaue it in writing to Valentinian shewing him amongst other things that he was yong in yeres a nouice in faith not yet baptised rather to learne than to iudge of bishops that the consistorie was no fit place for a priest to dispute in where the hearers should be Iewes on gētiles so scoffe at Christ the Emperour himselfe partial as appeared by his Law published before that time to impugne the truth As for departing if he were forced he would not resist but with his consent he could not relinquish his church to saue his life wtout great sinne And because Auxentius his companions vrged this that the Emperour ought to be iudge in matters of faith Saint Ambrose followeth and refelleth that word as repugnant not onely to the diuine Scriptures but also to the Romane lawes Conclusus vndique ad versutiam patrum suorum confugit de Imperatore vult inuidiam commouere dicens iudicare debere adolescentē catechumenū sacrae lectionis ignarum in consistorio iudicare Auxentius driuen to his shiftes hath recourse to the craft of his forefathers seeking to procure vs enuie by the Emperours name and sayth the Prince ought to bee iudge though hee bee yong not yet baptized and ignorant of the Scriptures and that in the Consistorie And to the Emperour himselfe Your father a man of riper yeeres sayde It is not for mee to bee iudge betweene Bishoppes doeth your clemencie nowe at these yeeres say I ought to bee iudge And hee baptized in Christ thought himselfe vnable for the weight of so great a iudgement doeth your clemencie that hath not yet obtayned to the Sacrament of baptisme chalenge the iudgement of fayth whereas yet you knowe not the mysteries of fayth No man shoulde thinke mee stubburne when I stand on this which your father of famous memorie not onely pronounced in woordes but also confirmed by his Lawes that in a cause of fayth or ecclesiasticall order hee shoulde be iudge that was both like in function and ruled by the same kind of right For those be the words of the Rescript his meaning was hee woulde haue Priests to bee iudges of Priests Then follow the wordes which you cite When euer didst thou heare most clement Emperour in a cause of fayth that Laymen iudged of bishops Shall wee so bend for flatterie that we should forget the right or duetie of Priests and what God hath bequeathed to me I should commit to others If a Bishop must be taught by a Layman what to follow let a Lay man then dispute or speake in the Church and a Bishop be an auditor let the Bishop learne of a Layman But surely if we suruey the course of the diuine Scriptures or auncient times who is there that can deny but in a cause of faith in a
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
thousand yeeres after Christ. His lawes made by a Councel of his sages at Winchester are yet extant Heare some of them and then tell vs whether he did meddle with ecclesiastical causes or no. First he commaundeth all men to loue one God for euer aboue all things and one rule of Christian religion wel and aduisedly to hold Item he willeth al men to discharge their functions specially the seruants of god Bishops Abbots Moncks Canons Nonnes to do their duties to liue according to their rules to make their praiers night and day for all Christian folke Item hee biddeth and on Gods behalf forbiddeth that any Christian man take to wife a kinsewoman within six degrees or his wiues kinswoman or his Godmother at the font or a professed Nonne or a diuorced woman or keepe harlots or haue mo wiues than one and that in lawfull mariage Item that holy dayes and fasting dayes be kept Sunday be kept holy from saturday noone till munday morning Fayres Courts huntings and worldly woorkes on that day to bee forborne Item that all fasts which bee bidden ember dayes and Lent bee kept and the feasts of our Lady and the Apostles to bee fasted saue Philip and Iacob euery friday to bee fasted except it bee holy day and no man to fast from Easter to Whitsuntide or from Christmas to the Octaues of the Epiphanie vnlesse hee will or it bee enioyned him Item that euery Christian prepare himselfe for the communion thrise a yere And truely keepe his othe and promise and loue God with an inward reuerence and heare diligently heauenly teachers and oft and many times search and looke on Gods Law his dictrine Item that euery Christian man learne so much that hee can the true fayth and the true vnderstanding thereof namely the Lordes prayer and the Creede Or else not to haue Christian buriall neither to bee admitted whiles he lyueth to the Lordes table nor to vndertake for others at the font or before the Bishoppe Item that Bishops be preachers and teachers of Gods Lawe and carefull followers of goodwoorkes Item that Witches sorcerers Idolaters periures strumpets breakers of order and wedlocke be banished the realme with other Lawes for tythes temples Church rightes trial of Clergie men accused and such like dueties and offences ecclesiasticall Phi. You presse me with a number of places that proue nothing against vs directly Theo. Take the weakest of them and see whether it will not inferre that Princes medled with causes ecclesiasticall Phi. We knowe they medled with them but not as supreme Gouernours of them Theo. I brought these places to refell that generall obiection which you framed out of Osius Leontius and others that Princes shoulde not medle with causes ecclesiasticall If you graunt they did and might lawfully meddle with such matters as the places which I bring do proue then by your owne confession Constantius was not reproued for medling with religion for so did other godly Princes that were not reproued but highly commended and honoured in the Church of Christ but rather he was reproued as I answered you at the first for his insolent and tyrannous kind of medling with these matters which was as I shewed you for that in his owne person hauing no skil nor experience in such cases he would needes end and determine all thinges according to his owne fansie without respect of right or trueth and execute the same with terrible force and rigor exceeding the boundes of all Christian humanitie Againe these later examples as well as the former import that Princes had all this while full power to plant and establish the Christian fayth in their realmes and to punish ecclesiasticall transgressions and disorders in all sorts of subiects Lay men and Clerkes which is all that wee seeke for and all that wee meane when wee make them Gouernours of their dominions in all causes both ecclesiasticall and temporall and since you can neither deny the lawes Edicts nor acts of Princes which wee produce to this purpose nor possibly shift them why doe you wickedly slaunder and malitiously peruert that doctrine which you shall neuer soberly confute Phi. You will haue Princes to bee supreme Gouernours in these cases this is it that wee most impugne Theo. Well then let vs goe by degrees Doe you graunt them to bee Gouernours in those cases Phi. What meane you by Gouernours Theo. Such as haue lawfull authoritie from God to commaunde for trueth and punish error Phi. Doe you make them Iudges and Deciders of trueth Theo. No but receiuers and establishers of it Phi. Yea but who shall tell them which is trueth Theo. That is not this question When wee reason whether Princes may commaund for trueth and punish error you must not cauill about the meanes to knowe trueth from error but suppose that trueth were confessed and agreed on and in that case what may Princes doe for trueth Phi. Mary Sir if trueth were not in strife the doubt were not so great Theo. If I shoulde aske you whether Princes may reuenge murders and punish theftes were this an answere to say but howe shall they knowe what murder is and who bee theeues No more when wee demaunde what duetie Princes owe to God and his trueth shoulde you stand quarelling what trueth is or howe trueth may bee knowen The Princes duetie to God is one question which wee nowe handle the way to discerne trueth from error is an other which anon shall ensue when once this is ended but first let vs haue your direct answere whether Princes may commaunde for trueth or no Phi. For trueth they may but if they take quid pro quo they both hazard them selues and their whole Realmes and for that cause we say they must bee directed by Bishoppes Theo. You slide to the second question againe before the first bee finished Stay for that till this bee tried You graunt that Princes may command for trueth Do you not Phi. Wee doe Theo. When you say they may commaunde for trueth you doe not meane this or that poynt of trueth but indefinitely for trueth that is for all parts of trueth alike without the which God can not rightly bee serued Phi. They may commaunde for all as well as for part if the Bishoppes neede their helpe in all Theo. And commaunding is not onely the free permitting of those that wil but the moderate punishing of those that will not For punishment is the due desert of him that neglecteth the commaundement which he should obey So that he which may iustly commaund may iustly punish and hee that may lawfully punish may certainely commaund Howe say you then may Princes punish for matters of religion Phi. No doubt they may but when and where the Priest must guyde Theo. Who beareth the sworde The Priest or the Prince Phi. The Prince not the Priest Theo. And that sworde which the Prince beareth must doe the deede
Christ to teach and baptise all nations without exceptioÌ„ but we say none hath at this present nor ought to haue any such power within the Realme and vnlesse you will defende that soules in heauen doe nowe preach the Gospel and minister the Sacramentes we see not how the Apostles haue any actuall function or ecclesiasticall power on earth here or elsewhere These quarrels full of spite and voide of al trueth and common reason doe more than you thinke impaire the credit of your religion and learning but so great is your malice that it shutteth your senses kindleth your cholor whiles you would say somwhat to say you care not what be it neuer so vntrue or vntidy Phi. The Princes soueraignty is directly against the commandement commission giuen to Peter first then to all the Apostles of preaching baptising remitting retaining binding loosing ouer all the world without difference of temporall state or dependance of any mortall Prince therein Theo. That coÌ„mandement promise of our Sauior to his Apostles is no way preiudiciall to our doctrine nor beneficial to yours as also the charge which the preachers bishops of England haue ouer their flocks proceedeth neither from Prince nor Pope nor dependeth vpon the wil or word of any earthly creature therfore you do vs the more wrong so confidently to say what you list of vs as if your enuious reports were authentik oracles Phi. You make the Prince supreme gouernor in al spiritual ecclesiasticall thinges causes preaching baptising binding loosing such like be spiritual things causes ergo you make the Princes supreme gouernor euen in these things And here you may see that we iustly charge you with all the former absurdities though to shift theÌ„ vs off you say we do nothing but slander cauil Theo. And here you may see the truth of our speech vniustnes of your charge that as you began so you coÌ„tinue with spite full peâ—â—erting deprauing our words For by GOVERNORS we do not mean moderators perscribers directors inuentors or authors of these things as you misconster vs but rulers magistrates bearing the sworde to permit defende that which Christ himselfe first appointed ordained with lawfull force to disturbe the despisers of his wil testament Now what inconuenience is this if we say that Princes as publike Magistrates may giue freedom protection and assistance to the preaching of the word ministring of the Sacraments right vsing of the keies not fet licence from Rome Is that against Christs coÌ„mandement or commission giuen to Peter the rest or doth that proue all ecclesiasticall power cure of soules to proceed depend of the Princes right Phi. It keepeth the realme from obedience to general Councels which haue bin or shal be gathered in forraine countries It taketh away al conuenient meanes of gathering holding or executing any such Councels their Decrees as appeared by refusing to come to the late Councel of Trent notwithstanding the Popes messengers and letters of other great Princes which requested and inuited them to the same Theo. Princes ought to heare obey the truth proposed by priuate persons Preachers much more to reuerence the same declared by a number of faithful godly Bishops meeting in a general councel But the pleasures orders of other princes prelats be their assembly neuer so great the rulers of this realme are not bound to respect vnlesse their consents be first required and obtained Particular councels you may call without vs and as we are not acquainted with them so are we not obstricted to them Generall Councels you can not call without the liking and warning of all Christian Princes and common-wealthes and if you neglect or skippe any they may lawfully refuse and despise that which you shal then and there decree For that which pertaineth to all can not be good without the knowledge and consents of all Phi. To the Councel of Trent you were requested and inuited by messengers froÌ„ the Pope and letters of other great Princes Theo. To your Chapter at Trent we came not for many good and sufficient reasons The Pope tooke vppon him to call that Councell which he had no right to do None might haue voices in the Councel but such as were his creatures and sworne to bee true trustie to his triple crowne The conclusion and resolution of all thinges was euer reserued to him or his Legates This Realme and others were inuited to come but as suppliants to your Synod to stand at your curtesies and to suffer your selues to be iudges in your owne cause and yet you thinke much that wee refused to come Let a christian councell bee agreed on by all their consentes that haue to do with it let both sides haue like interest in the councell Let your Salua semper in omnibus Apostolicae sedis authoritate Forprising in all thinges the Popes power and pleasure be reiected and the Scriptures inspired from God be laid in the middest as the ballance and touchstone of truth which was the wont of former councels Let both partes bee sworne to respect nothing but in the feare of God to examine the faith seeke out the ancient canons of Christs church if we faile to meete you declaime against vs on Gods name as hinderers of peace despisers of general councels Otherwise no duety bindeth vs to resort much lesse to be subiect to your vnlawfull routes voide of al christian authority liberty truth indifferency Phi. Was the Councell of Trent vnlawfully called Theo. Proue it the Popes right to cal generall Councels that none must sit there but his feed sworne men lastly that he must rule raigne as he doth in all assemblies bee iudge against al law reason in his own cause though he be chiefe in resisting the truth oppressing the church then will we grant your conuenticle at TreÌ„t was orderly called But if these things be repugnant to christian equitie the sincere canons of Gods Church whereby the Catholike Councels of former ages were directed as apparently they be then had your Tridentine chapter neither the calling keeping concluding nor meaning of a generall Councel Phi. Who shoulde call Councels if not the Pope Theo. Shew what one generall Councell the Pope called for the space of twelue hundred yeares after Christ and then aske vs who should call them but he if you can not learn that vsurpation is no right and that generall Councels were called by Princes and not by Popes and therefore the Popes power to summon generall Councels if it bee any grewe very lately and is not yet olde enough to bee currant or Catholike Phi. To the Councell of Trent other Princes consented Theo. Certaine Friers were set there to wast day light wearie the wals with declaiming against the Gospell of Christ whiles your holy
Canons be not incident to the Princes vocation and therefore no maruell if Princes be raw in those thinges wherewith they be not acquainted And since the danger is great if they command for error their skil not so great but that they may soone misse the truth why should you bee loth that others of deeper iudgement exacter knowledge whom God hath placed to teach both priuate men Princes their duties in those cases should direct moderate the swordes of Princes for feare least they should be missed to the ruine of themselues and many thowsandes with them Theo. We be not loth they should be directed but rather exhort all Princes to take great care and spare no paines to come by faithfull and true direction in those thinges that pertaine to God For if in temporall matters where the losses are but temporal they do nothing without the mature and sound aduise of their graue trustie Counsellours how inexcusable is their negligence if in heauenly things where the bodies soules of them-selues their subiectes may be lost for euer they serue their affectiōs seek not his wil that set them in place gaue them power to maintain his truth safegard his Church Phi. We then agree on both sides that Princes must be directed Theo. We do Phi. If they must be directed ergo by Bishops Theo. Bishops for their calling and learning are the likeliest men to direct them right but yet your ergo doth not hold It is not enough for them to be Bishops they must also be teachers of truth before they may claime to be directours of Princes Phi. Who be more likely to teach truth than Bishops Theo. I said before they were likelie but your conclusion inforceth a necessitie which you can not proue Many Bishops haue taught lies and seduced Princes in the church of God and therefore not their dignitie but their doctrine is it that Princes must regarde for neither Prince nor people stand bound to the persons of men but vnto the truth of God and vnto their teachers so long as they swarue not from truth Phi. And who shall be iudge of truth Theo. Absolute iudge of truth neither Prince nor Priest may chalenge to bee Phi. Why so Theo. God is truth of God I trust no man may be iudge The son of God saith of himself I am truth S. Iohn giueth this record of the spirit of God The spirit is truth Ye can therfore be no iudges of truth vnles ye will be iudges of God Phi. Who shal then be iudge of truth The. Who but Christ Phi. He shal be iudge at the last daie Theo. Hee shall then giue generall and finall iudgement of all men but in the meane time hee onely is the soueraine and supreme iudge of truth The Father hath committed all iudgement to the sonne and my iudgement saith Christ is iust This strife saith Augustine requireth a iudge Iudicet ergo Christus Let Christ be therefore iudge In earth saith Optatus of this matter there can be no iudgement we must seeke for a iudge from heauen But why knocke wee at heauen when as we haue his will here in the Gospell Phi. They mean that Christ speaketh in his church at this day by his word so iudgeth Theo. And we meane that his word is truth and therefore your Bishops can not be iudges of the word of Christ but they must be iudges of Christ himselfe that speaketh by his word which is no small presumption Phi. Shall not the Church be iudge of the Scriptures Theo. My sheepe saith Christ heare my voice they be no iudges of his voice A iudge of the lawe is no obseruer of the law as S. Iames auoucheth and since the whole church is bound to obey the law of God they be no iudges of the law Inferius est nobis quicquid iudicamus It is inferior to vs whatsoeuer we be iudges of Eternam igitur legem mundis animis fas est cognoscere iudicare non fas est The eternall law of God therefore it is lawfull for cleane harts to know it is not lawfull for them to iudge Wee must not saith Augustine to God iudge of so high authoritie neither of the booke which is thine because we submit our vnderstanding to it And againe To the canons of the Scriptures pertaine certaine bookes of the Prophetes and Apostles quos omnino iudicare non audeamus the which in any case wee may not dare to iudge And this is the reason there may be no iudge of truth where no daunger of error is And of the Scriptures S. Austine saith Quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est It is a wickednes to make a doubt whether there be any error in them or no therefore there may be no iudges of them but the whole church must be subiect to them and with all humilitie beleeue them Phi. The Bishops be no iudges of the Scriptures whether they bee true or no that as you proue is no doubt and therefore needeth no iudge But in this they be iudges whether the Scriptures be mistaken of others or no. Theo. Then bee they no iudges of truth which is the thing that I first affirmed but of them selues and others which be subiect to errour and ignoraunce Phi. Yet they be iudges of errour though not of trueth Theo. If you take iudging for discerning as the worde doeth often signifie they can not bee teachers of trueth vnlesse they can discerne trueth from errour But onelie God is to limit and appoint by his word what shall stand for truth what for errour With that Bishops haue nothing to do they must heare and beleeue the voice of the great Sheepeheard Christ Iesus as well as the meanest sheepe in his fould Phi. Wee grant you that so you grant vs this that only Bishops bee discerners of truth Theo. A liberall offer You will graunt vs a knowen truth vpon condition that we shall grant you a manifest vntruth Make earth and ashes if you dare to bee iudges of their Lord and maister which is in heauen or deny Bishops when they be at the highest to be the seruants of Christ yea happie be they if they be so much In these things we neither stande at your almes nor aske your consents we be right sure and dare not deny them therefore our assertion is without contradiction yours is vtterly false that only Bishops be discerners of truth For as Bishops ought to discern which is truth before they teach so must the people discern who teacheth right before they beleeue Phi. Shal the people iudge their Pastors you be so new fangled that you say you know not what Theo. We haue the words and warrant of the holy Ghost for that which we say Beleeue not euery Spirit but trie the Spirits whether they be of god for many false prophets are
felowes the Louanists in their late Plantine edition haue mended the points made thē interrogatiue for very shame But how so euer you set the points certaine it is the Lorde prayed ioyntly for them all and that at this very supper as the 17. of S. Iohn witnesseth in as ample manner for all as for one I pray for them I pray not for the world Holy father preserue them in thy name whō thou hast giuen me keepe them from euill sanctifie them in thy trueth It is a greater grace to bee kept from euill and to bee sanctified in the trueth which Christ requested for all than to haue their fayth not fayle and to bee conuerted which hee promised vnto Peter You doe therefore very wickedly to teach the people that None other Apostle might chalenge any such speciall prerogatiue either of his office or Person as to bee stedfast in trueth without error The prayer was generall for them all by the iudgement of S. Augustine and were it not the prayer which our Sauiour made for them all and the promise which hee made vnto them all euen the same night that hee spake this are more effectual than this The prayer you haue heard the promise is If I depart not the comforter shall not come vnto you but if I depart I will send him vnto you And when that Spirit of trueth commeth hee shall leade you into all trueth To bee led into all trueth is a better assurance against error than to fall first and after to bee conuerted which is all that is promised vnto Peter in this place Phi. Saint Augustine also Christ praying for Peter prayed for the rest because in the Pastor and Prelate the people is corrected or commended Saint Ambrose writeth that Peter after his tentation was made Pastor of the Church because it was said to him thou being conuerted confirme thy brethren Theo. You might haue spared these authorities but that you must needes haue the Fathers names in your mouthes though they make nothing for you The words of S. Augustine which you cite are not found in the olde Printes nor in their copies but crept into some written bookes by the negligence and vnskilfulnesse of scribes and yet were they S. Augustines I see not what you gaine by them Peter is there called Praepositus that is preferred before the rest as also Praelatus doeth signifie both which wordes in the Fathers bee commonly applied to all Bishops import no singular prerogatiue that Peter should claime but the common charge which all Pastours haue And though the words which you quote be neither many nor materiall yet you mistake them For you say the people is corrected or commended where the Latine is Semper in praeposito populus aut corripitur aut laudatur the people is alwayes reproued or praised in their leader or Prelate S. Ambrose saith no more but that Petrus Ecclesiae praeponitur post quam à Diabolo tentatus est Peter receiueth charge of the church after he was tempted of the Diuell And by these wordes thou being conuerted confirme thy brethrē he saith The Lord doth signifie what it meaneth that he did after chose him to be sheepehearde of the Lordes flocke to wit that hee and all other sheepeheardes by his example should learne to beare with their weake brethren and vse that kindinesse and patience in restoring and confirming others which their Lord and master first shewed in suffering conuerting them And this Sainct Ambrose did well to make the chiefest point of a christian sheepeheard Phi. But S. Ambrose saith in the singular number Petrus ecclesiae praeponitur eum elegit Pastorem Dominici gregis Peter is set ouer the Church and Christ chose him to be Pastor of his flocke Sure you be singular men to quote such places and make such conclusions Peter was set ouer the Church or made Pastour of the Lordes flocke ergo none but Peter Euen so you may reason The Gospell of the glorie of the blessed God is committed to mee saith Paul ergo to none but to Paul And againe I am the teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth ergo none but he Or when he saith to the Philippians It is giuen vnto you not onely to beleeue in Christ but also to suffer for Christ ergo it is giuen to none but to them If you play thus with Scriptures and fathers you may make mad worke in them both Phi. Peter was made Pastour of the flock Theo. And so were others as you heard out of Ambrose before The Lords flocke not only Peter receiued but we al with him Phi. He was set ouer the church The. And so are al Pastors Our Sauiour saith of teachers in generall Who then is a faithfull seruant wise whom his master hath set ouer his household to giue them meate in season S. Cyprian speaking of himselfe saith Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositum persequitur For this he persueth the ruler or ouerseer of the church S. Augustine saith Praepositi intelligendi sunt per quos ecclesia nunc gubernatur They must be taken for ouerseers of the church by whom the church is nowe gouerned And againe Sunt quidam Ecclesiae praepositi de quibus Paulus dicit sua quaerentes There are some ouerseers of the church of whom Paul saith they seeke their owne So that Praepositus and Pastor Ecclesiae bee not titles proper to Peter but stiles common to all Bishops and therefore by them you can inferre nothing But where all this while are your proofes that Peter could not erre which is the frame that you would fasten on these wordes Why proue you thinges superfluous and skip that which is most in question betwixt vs What father euer saide that these wordes of our Sauiour made Peter free from falling or erring From desperation irrepentance the Lords praier saued him recouered him when he was ready to perish from falling or erring hee was defended no more than the rest nay not so much They fled forsooke their master he presuming farther sped worse as the Lord fortold him the Gospel reporteth of him And were that proued which you neither offer nor are able to proue yet doth it not belong to the Bishop of Rome which is it that we sticke at For touching Peters person and office we can soone be intreated to thinke and speake the best And though we do not say as you do that truth was tied to his sleeue only yet are we of opinion that he and his fellow Disciples were guided into all truth as by whom the church was first to bee planted and from whome the faithfull were to receiue the word of truth the foundation of their faith And therefore we nothing doubt but as the writings of Peter Paul Iames Iohn Iude Matthew bee canonical Scriptures so the preaching not of Peter onely but of all the rest
which is good and religious to your priuate conceit which sauoreth altogither of mere vanitie and open flattery Phi. What S. Hierom meant God doth know you do not Theo. No more do you but yâ— hee meant not this which you would father on him we haue his owne witnes which you must beleeue vnlesse you can shewe better Thus hee complaineth of the Romanes both Pristes people in the epitaph of Marcella Haeretica in hijs Prouincijs exorta tempestas nauemplenam blasphemiarum Romano intulit portuâ— c. Romanae fidei purissimum fontem caeno lutosa permiscuere vestigia Tunc sancta Marcella postquam sensit fidem Apostolico ore laudatam in plerisque violari ita vt sacerdotes quoque ac nonnullos Monachorum maximeque seculi homines in assensum sui traheret ac simplicitati illuderet episcopi publice restitit An hereticall tempest rising in these Countries of the East caried full saile into the hauen of Rome c. vncleane feete did trouble with mud the most pure fountaine of the Romane faith Then holy Marcella when shee sawe the faith praised by the Apostles mouth violated in most thinges so that this heresie drew the Priestes and some Monkes and specially laimen into the consent of it selfe and deluded the simplicitie of the Bishop of Rome shee began to resist openly Note Sir that come to passe in Hieroms age and knowledge which you would proue by Hieroms words to be in all ages impossible The fountaine of the Romane faith defiled with mud the faith praised by the Apostles violated in most things the Priests the people drawen into the same consent the seely Bishop of Rome abused by them and the first that openly resisted a poore widow Go then and blaze to the world as you haue done in your magistrall annotations or rather deprauations of the new Testament which as you haue dressed it with your deuises and glozes is now nothing lesse than the Testament of Christ proclaime I say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes nor their faith be possibly changed that vpon the credits of Cyprian Hierom when they themselues did see and say the contrary Phi. We take no such care for the people of Rome whether they may straie from the faith or no Peters successour is he that our eyes are and ought to bee rather bent on and touching his holines we be resolued that he can not erre in faith Theo. His holinesse hath very good lucke then and better than all his neighbours besides but how shall wee knowe that hee can not erre Your worde is too weake to be taken for a matter of such weight fathers you bring none Scriptures you haue none which way will you make it appeare that his holinesse can not be stained with error Phi. No maruell that our Master would haue his vicars Consistorie and seate infallible seeing euen in the olde law the high Priesthood and chaire of Moses wanted not great priuilege in this case though nothing like the churches and Peters prerogatiue Theo. But we maruell where you finde that Christ would haue any vicar or that his vicars Seat is infallible or that the Bishop is that vicar which you speake of and we most maruell that you auouch al this vpon your single report without script or scrole to confirme the same The chaire of Moses had no such priuilege as you chalenge The people were to learne the law of God at the Priestes handes and hee that presumptuouslie despised the Priest or Magistrate giuing iudgement according to the tenour of Gods law died the death But this doth not proue that either the Priest or the Magistrate coulde not erre or that the Prophetes did not iustly reproue the Priestes when they sate to iudge according to the lawe for their manifest contempts breaches of the Law God by the mouth oâ— Malachy both describeth what the Priestes should do declareth what the Priests had done The Priestes lippes should preserue knowledge and they shoulde seeke the law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But yee are gone out of the way O ye Priests ye haue caused many to fall by the lawe ye haue broken the couenant of Leui saith the Lord of hostes This proude priuilege which you mention was claimed by the wicked Priestes in Ieremies time Come say they let vs imagine some deuise against Ieremie for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophet But God assureth them by his Prophet for this their arrogant presumption that the law should perish from the Priest and counsell from the auncient What grosse idolatrie Vriah the Priest committed to please king Ahaz the Scripture will tell you And were there no speciall examples the serious inuectiues of the Prophets against them and the whole land as well for false religion as corrupt manners are euident testimonies that Priestes from the lowest to the highest might erre Esaie saith The Priest and the Prophet haue erred they haue gone awaie they faile in vision they stumble in iudgement Our Sauiour charged his Disciples to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadduces which needed not vnlesse it were erronious And think you these were no errours which the Sonne of God reproued in the Pharisees You haue made the coÌ„maundement of God of no authoritie by your tradition many such like things you do teaching for doctrines the commandements of men The Sadduces errour denying both the resurrection of the bodie and immortality of the soule is often mentioned in the Scriptures and openly refuted by our Sauior And yet the high Priestes were often Sadduces and in the chiefe councels consistories of Ierusalem where the greatest causes of religion and matters of weight were determined sate halfe Sadduces halfe Pharisees sometimes only Sadduces which were plaine Atheisâ—s and wicked heretikes Phi. That ouerthroweth not Peters priuilege Theo. Much lesse doth it establish Peters priuilege for the which cause you allege it but if Moses successour might erre why not Peters Phi. Our assertion is they can not erre you say they can Reason is that you proue your affirmatiue Theo. The Scripture proueth the generall that God is true and all men lyars you except the Bishoppe of Rome as not subiect to errour and ignoraunce reason is you proue your exception and that strongly least you bee conuicted of insolent presumption to fasten the spirite of truth to the Popes chaire without great and good assurance from him that is the fountaine of truth and the giuer of the holy Ghost Phi. We hold by Christes promise Theo. Shew that and you be discharged Phi. Thy faith shall not faile Theo. Proue that to bee spoken to the Bishoppe of Rome Phi. It was spoken to Peter Theo. But not to the Pope Phi. That which Peter had his successour
greater part of those which professe christianitie or some speciall places or persons must for euer be directed vnto all truth and preserued from all error this can not be concluded by these wordes Phi. To teach all truth and preserue in truth and from errour the holy Ghost is promised and perfourmed onely to the church and the chiefe gouernour and generall councels thereof Theo. In deede you take vpon you like Gouernors to appoint what the son of God shal meane who must haue the holy Ghost as if the matter were in your hands not in his Phi. Do we take vpon vs to limit the holy Ghost Theo. What else do you when of your owne heades you restraine the words of our Sauior as you liâ—t Phi. As we list Theo. Our Sauiours words are When that spirit of truth commeth he shal teach you al truth This say you is promised perfourmed only to the church the chiefe Gouernor the Pope and generall Councels thereof As if You in S. Iohns Gospel did signifie none but the Pope the chiefe Gouernor and such Bishops as the Pope will admit to his conferences which you call the generall councels of the church and what is this else but to diuide the holy Ghost as you thinke good Phi. The rulers of the church must needs haue the holy Ghost Theo. Meane you all or some Phi. The most part of them Theo. How proue you that to be Christes meaning that the most part of them which can procure themselues miters or rather catch vp Bishoprickes shall be sure of the holy Ghost in such measure that they shall neuer mistake the saith nor any parte thereof Phi. If they should erre the church should erre Theo. You run from bad to worse Your own law wil shew you the falsenes peruersnes of your Rhemish obseruations and expositions Quaero de qua Ecclesia intelligas quod hic dicitur quod non possit errare Side ipso Papa certum est quod Papa errare potest Respondeo Ipsa congregatio fidelium hic dicitur Ecclesia talis Ecclesia non potest non esse I demaund of what church it is ment when it is saide as here that the church can not erre If of the Pope himselfe it is certaine that the Pope may erre I answere the congregatioÌ„ of the faithfull is here called the church and that church can not chose but continue The spirit of truth is not promised to the Pope nor to his councels but to the faithfull whether they be seuered or assembled and they shall not erre that is they shall not perish in errour as the wicked do but shall either be recouered from their errour or find mercy for their ignorance Phi. May the whole church erre Theo. If wee shoulde graunt you that the whole church can not erre to wit that all the faithfull on the earth at one time can not bee deceiued in any necessarie point of faith but that Christ for his promise sake will preserue truth amongest them what is this to the Pope or his Cardinals or Conuenticles to whom you conuey the holy Ghost by inheritance Phi. Neuer delude vs with ifs but tell vs whether you think the whole church may erre or no. Theo. In matters of faith wee thinke it can not Phi. If the church can not er the Gouernors of the church can not The. Leaue trifling and fall to reasoning The whole church can not erre ergo what Phi. Ergo the Pastors Preachers can not erre Theo. Conclude you all or none Phi. To say no Pastour can erre were apparent madnesse Theo. And the next which is all Pastours can not erre doeth you no pleasure For the Bishop of Rome may erre so may the rest of his mitred and twiforked creatures yet many good Pastours and Preachers keepe fast to the faith Howbeit this conclusion doth not follow vpon my confession The whole church I graunt can not er that is all and euery the faithful can not er therefore all Pastours can not er this is no kind of consequeÌ„t For some of the faithful may be directed vnto truth they no pastors nor preachers many preachers may be preserued from errour they no Bishops many Bishops may be kept in the faith and they not assembled a great number of those that be assembled may bee rightly affected and yet not the most part of them and the greater side may be wel disposed and yet not the Bishop of Rome whom you make to be the moderator and guider of all councels And therefore your argument is very childish The whole church can not erre ergo generall councels can not erre and specially the Pope which later part your best friendes haue not onely refuted as false but also detested for incredible and shamefull flatterie Phi. So say you Theo. So say they Alfonsus that wrote bitterly against Luther when he came to this point dealt plainely in these wordes Non credo aliquem esse adeo impudentem Papae assentatorem vt ei tribuere hoâ— velit vt nec errare possit I can not thinke any man to be so impudent a flatterer of the Pope as to attribute this vnto him that he can not er Phi. Alfonsus hath no such words Theo. You say truth Alfonsus now hath not but Alfonsus had those wordes in his former editions And this commendeth your cunning that you can curtaile the writinges of your fellowes leaue out what you list when you new print them Phi. It was his owne correcting in his seconde edition Theo. Whether it was his doing or yours we care not the wordes remaine in the olde Printes to the manifest condemnation of your follie and flatterie in this behalfe And in his new copies though he qualifie his termes hee holdeth flatly the same opinion Omnis homo errare potest in fide etiam sipapa sit Euerie man may erre in faith euen the Pope himselfe And so you heard your owne gloze before affirme It is certaine the Pope may erre The same is confessed by the best of your side both canonistes and diuines Panormitane saith Concilium potest condemnare Papam de haeresi vt in cap. Si Papa Distinct. 40. vbi dicitur quod Papa potest esse haereticus de haeresi iudicari A councell may condemne the Pope of heresie as appeareth in the 40. Distinct. cap. Si Papa Where it is saide that the Pope may be an heretik iudged of heresie Lyra saith Multi summi Pontifices inuenti sunt apostatasse à side Many Popes haue proued apostataes Augustinus de Ancona Papa est deponendus pro haeresi ad CoÌ„ciliuÌ„ spectat PapaÌ„ in haeresi deprehensum condeÌ„nare vel deponere The Pope may be deposed for heresie A couÌ„cel may condemn or depose the Pope deprehended in heresie Antonius Archbishop of Florence Pro haeresi Papa congruè ipso facto
mentio habetur In the said declaration of Pope Nicolas there is mention made of renouncing the proprietie only but none other right And so Ius aliud a proprietate habuisse potuerunt they might haue some other right besides the proprietie Phi. So they might Theo. As if Christ and his Apostles had been cunning in the ciuill Lawes to renounce the proprietie for a fashion and yet to reserue an interest in those thinges which they seemed to renounce so that they might both keepe and vse them at their willes This exposition that Christ taught men to renounce the proprietie of their goods and reserue the vse is as false and hereticall as the former assertion of Pope Nicolas that Christ and his Apostles renounced their right in al earthly things both in special and common and taught others to do the like Your gloze tumbleth a long while in the myre after he hath confessed the one to be expresly contrarie to the other at length submitteth himselfe to the Church of Rome though hee see not howe to loose the knot Nicolaus the second in a Councel of 114. Bishoppes appointed Berengarius to confesse that The very body of Christ is in trueth and sensually broken and brused in pieces with the teeth of the faithful this confession the Pope receiued allowed and sent to the Bishoppes of Italie Germanie and Fraunce as catholike which your owne gloze saith is a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held Phi. Hee saith it is vnlesse you vnderstand it soberly Lheo And that sober vnderstanding hee graunteth must bee cleane against the text For where the text affirmeth this of y◠very body of Christ excludeth the outward sacrament as the words declare your gloze sayth that vnlesse you vnderstand this of the outward formes of bread and wine and not of the bodie of Christ it is a greater heresie than that of Berengarius and so is it in deede a very palpable a brutish error and can no way bee salued except you take the woords cleane contrarie to themselues which conuinceth the Pope and his whole Councell of a monsterous error Phi. This was Berengarius fault in his confession but not the Popes iudgement or resolution Theo. You would faine wind out if the text it selfe did not hold you fast but there it is sayde that Pope Nicolas and the Synode deliuered this faith and assured it to be Apostolike and Euangelike And therefore if Berengarius erred in subscribing this fourme of confession the Pope his Councell erred in prescribing the same Phi. You take nice aduantages of words which men may soone misse Theo. The heresie of Arius differed but one letter from the truth and yet his doctrine wa◠very blasphemous One word may containe a whole kingdome of impietie Phi. The best is you find not many such ouersightes in the Popes decrees Theo. You print and publish none but such as you thinke your selues able to defend suppressing the rest that might bee chalenged and then you aske vs howe wee prooue that euer the Bishoppe of Rome gaue definitiue sentence against the fayth in open Court or Councel which refuge of yours is very ridiculous For what hath Christes prayer for Peter to doe with definitiue sentences and open Consistories If the Pope may beleeue defende and preach an error what neede wee care whether his sentence bee conclusiue or perswasiue definitiue or interlocutorie And so for the place what skilleth it where and in whose presence the words be written or spoken if they be certainely his And where you thinke it maketh much for the Bishoppe of Rome that wee can not proue these errors of Popes to haue beene definitiuely pronounced in their publike Consistories if that were true as it is not you shew your selues to be but wranglers For wee can name an infinite number of Bishoppes and Churches that neuer erred in this speciall precise maner which you propose Howe prooue you that euer the Bishops of Yorke or Durham in England of Poycters or Lions in Fraunce of Valeria or Carduba in Spaine of Rauennas or Rhegium in Italie of Corinth or Athens in Greece of Miletus or Sardis in Asia gaue definitiue sentence against the faith in their publike consistories A thousande others I coulde obiect on whom that thing shall neuer bee fastened which you crake can not be proued by the Bishop of Rome Heretikes haue been euer conuinced by their confessions writings not by their definitiue sentences or iudiciall proceedings And therefore if Popes haue erred in writing and teaching they were as right heretikes as euer were Arius Sabellius Nestorius Eutiches and such like which neuer gaue definitiue sentēce against the faith in Courts and Consistories but onely taught or wrate against the truth Phi. Though one or two Bishops of Rome were deceiued they erred not so often there as in other places Theo. Set Constantinople aside and in no one See did the bishops erre oftener than in Rome but this is not our marke If one or two haue erred why may not others Yea though none of them had erred heretofore yet that which is possible may happen hereafter and so long they can be no absolute iudges of trueth Phi. If they might erre they were no fit iudges of faith but because their Tribunall is the highest that is in the Church they must therfore be free from error Theo. You euer proue that which we doubt of by y◠which is more doubtful We denie the Popes Tribunal to bee the highest that is in the church Prouinciall and generall Councels by the Canons are aboue him And in matters of faith the highest Court that is in earth may misse therfore no man is bound to Pastor Prelate or councel farther than their decrees be coherēt agreeable with the faith For against God we owe neither audience nor obedience vnto the perswasions or precepts of any men Phi. No question we must as well in faith as in manners obey rather God than man and therefore if the iudgements of bishops and conclusions of Councels might be repugnant to the word of God duetie bindeth vs to preferre the preceptes of God before the pleasures of men but it is not possible that God should leaue his Church without direction and directed shee can not bee but by iudgement and in giuing iudgement the head must be highest and so the soundest left that peruert the rest and endanger the whole bodie Theo. The church of Christ neuer was nor euer shall bee without direction but that direction proceedeth from the word and spirit of Christ not from the courts and Consistories of Popes Assemblees of learned Bishoppes voyd of pride and strife are good helpes to trie the faith and moderate the discipline of the Church and the greater the better yet the direction of Gods holy Spirite and infallible determination of trueth is not annexed to any certaine places Persons or numbers
neither can you of a promise which is common to all establish a priuate Tribunall for one man from the which the spirit of trueth shal not depart as you professe of the Popes Consistorie Phi. If he may erre how can he be iudge of al others Theo. You say wel since by the consent and confession of your own church foureteene hundred yeres after Christ he may erre we conclude he can not bee supreme iudge of faith nor Soueraigne directer of Princes in those cases Phi. Was our whole Church of that opinion so lately Theo. Shew euer any learned man of your side that sayde or helde otherwise Phi. Nay shewe you they held so Theo. I haue already shewed so much Phi. You haue named some priuate men that wrate so Theo. The strongest pillours of your Church Phi. But you say this opinion was generall Theo. If you consider how earnestly and openly this was asserted by the best and neuer contradicted by any no not by those that tooke vpon them to bee the chiefe Proctours and Patrones for the Pope your selfe will say it was generall and confessed on all sides Your owne Decrees that will not haue the Pope reprooued for any fault adde this exception Nisi deprehendatur a fide deuius vnlesse hee bee founde to swarue from the fayth The Bishoppes of Fraunce and Germanie gathered at Brixia and Mogunce against Gregorie the seuenth condemned him as The auncient disciple of the heretike Berengarius a vera fide exorbitantem and swaruing from the true fayth His owne Cardinals and Bishoppes that were at Rome made this profession against him Ad destruendas haereses nouiter ab Hildebrando inuentas consedimus We assembled to destroy the heresies lately deuised by Pope Hildebrand And in special wordes Hoc est decretum Hildebrandi in quo a Doctrina fide Catholica aberrauit This is Hildebrands decree in which hee erred from the Catholike doctrine and fayth Robert Grosseteste Bishoppe of Lincolne reuerenced of your Church for a Saint lying on his death proued the Pope not onely might bee but was an heretike by sundry reasons and by the very definition of heresie and for the possibilitie of the matter alleageth the Popes owne testimonie Item dicit Decretalis quod super tali vitio videlicet haeresi potest debet Papa accusari The Decretall sayth that for heresie the Pope may and ought to be accused But what speake I of one Bishop Six hundred Prelates an hundred foure and twentie Diuines and almost three hundred Lawyers with the whole Colledge of Cardinals in your generall Councell of Pisa deposed two Popes Gregorie the twelfth and Benedict the thirteenth as schismatikes and heretikes Your Councell of Constance where as you say were 4. Patriarkes 29. Cardinals 47. Archbishoppes 270. Bishops 564. Abbats and Doctours in all aboue nine hundred deposed the same Benedict persisting in his Popedom notwithstanding the former sentence as being schismaticum haereticum ac a fide deuium articuli fidei Vnam sanctam Catholicam Ecclesiam violatorem pertinacem notorium manifestum a schismatike and an heretike swaruing from the faith and a wilfull notorious manifest subuerter of the Article of our faith one holy Catholike Church And in the same Councel it was obiected to Iohn the 23. Quod dictus Iohannes Papa 23. saepe saepius coram diuersis Prelatis alijs honestis probis viris pertinaciter Diabolo suadente dixit asseruit dogmatizauit astruxit vitam eternam non esse quin imo dixit pertinaciter credidit animam hominis cum corpore humano mori extingui ad instar animalium brutorum dixÃt que mortuum semel esse in nouissimo die minimè resurrecturum contra articulum de resurrectione mortuorum That often and very often before diuers Prelates and other honest and approoued men hee sayd auouched vttered as his iudgement egerly defended that there is no life euerlasting yea moreouer hee sayde and resolutely beleeued that the soule of man dieth and perisheth with the bodie after the maner of other beasts and that hee which was once dead should not rise in the last day contrarie to the article of the resurrection of the dead Your generall councell of Basil which Germanie Fraunce Englande the Dukedome of Millan and many other Countries so greatly esteemed gaue the like iudgement not yet seuen skore seuen yeres agoe against Eugenius the 4. and iudicially pronounced him to bee schismaticum a fide deuium pertinacem haereticum a schismatike erring from the fayth and a stubburne heretike Lastly your diuines of Paris but last day resolued that Peter erred in faith when Paul reprooued him and if Peter did there can bee no question but his successours may since they claime from him and not before him If this bee not the generall consent of your owne Church I knowe not what is If it bee then by the full and cleare confession of your selues for 1400. yeeres the Pope might stray from the faith and become an heretike Phi. There is not one of your examples but may be replied to Theo. Graunt they might yet this is most sure which I conclude that they were al of this opinion the Pope coulde erre Phi. What if that opinion were not true Theo. That must you proue It is enough for mee to shewe that not onely the church of Christ in former ages but your owne Church euen vntil our age held this opinion of Popes that they could erre What reason you haue or can haue to impugne their opinion let the world iudge We thinke you within the compasse of Alfonsus censure if ye be not worse Phi. What if wee should graunt the Pope may erre as al men may That doeth not diminish his power Theo. A iudge must haue two thinges before hee bee competent namely skill to discerne that hee misse not the trueth and power to commaund that his iudgement may take place If he want either hee is no fit iudge Phi. You say right and both these the Pope hath in most ample maner Theo. He hath neither Erre he may and therefore no man is bound to his iudgement farther than it standeth with the word of truth and so farre the greatest Princes in the world are bound to the meanest man that God doth send For God is truth they that resist the truth resist God and the end of them al that resist is damnation which Princes shal not auoyde vnlesse they submit themselues to the hearing embracing and obeying of the truth And as hee may erre so hath hee no power to commaund Princes or others but only to propose the commandements of God vnto them as euery Bishop must may by vertue of his vocation Farther authority by violence to compel or by corporal and external meanes to punish no Prelate nor Pope hath by the lawe of God since that belongeth to the
sworde which the Prince and not the Priest beareth in Gods behalfe to force refusers and chastiâ—e malefactours as I before at large haue proued And so by consequent Princes are neither bound to the Popes hest for direction nor in daunger of the Popes court for correction but that they may by the aduise and instruction of such as bee learned and godly pastors about them vse their swords for the receiuing setling of trueth and perfect establishing of Christs wil testament within their owne realmes without expectâ—ng or regarding what the bishops of Rome and his adherentes like or allow Phi. But all this while you resolue not who shall be iudge which is the true will and Testament of Christ. Theo. Let him that maketh the claime vndertake the proofe We find no place nor person to whom the sonne of God hath referred vs for the right vnderstanding of his wil but only to himselfe Phi. You bind the people to followe the Prince which of all others is the worst way to come by truth Theo. We bind no man to prince nor Pope for matters of faith Only we say subiects must endure their princes with patience when they command for error obey them with diligence when they maintaine the truth Farther or other seruitude in causes of conscience wee lay on no man and that burden the church of Christ neuer refused neither vnder heretikes Apostataes nor infidels til the Pope growing great by the ruine of the Empire and encreasing as fast in pride as he did in wealth would needs giue the aduenture to rule kingdomes depose Princes though by Gods lawe hee haue no more power nor iurisdiction ouer them than any other Bishop hath which is so farre from that he claimeth and vsurpeth that he as well as other Bishops should be subiect to the sword and obedient to the lawes of the Romane Emperour and so was hee as I haue plainely shewed to the time that forsaking the Grecians and reuolting from the Germanes hee learned to chaunge Lords so often that at length what with sedition of subiects dissention of princes superstition of al sorts the mysterie of iniquitie working he made himselfe Lord and master of all Phi. You bee lothe I see to yeeld the bishop of Rome any right to force princes to their dueties Theo. And you be as willing he should not only take their crownes but tread on their neckes though hee haue no right to superuise their doings or censure their persons Phi. If it be not his right we aske it not Theo. If it be his right we resist it not Phi. Will you admit it if we proue it Theo. Will you not claime it except you proue it Phi. We will not Theo. Then say what you will or can for the confirmation of it THE THIRD PART REFELLETH THE IESVITES REASONS AND authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes and the bearing of armes by subiectes against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings and Princes and conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thowsande yeares after Christ and none agnised by any Christian Prince vntill this present daie Phi. THE Pope may reproue Princes excommunicate them and if neede bee depose them which other Bishoppes can not doe Theo. Seuer these thinges which you ioyne togither and the truth will the sooner appeare Reproue them he may when they violate the precepts of God and so may any other Bishop or teacher For God hath placed them in his church to teach reproue instruct reforme as wel Princes as others charged them not to conceale one word of that he hath spoken neither for fauour nor terrour of any Prince The will of God must be declared to all and sinne reproued in all without dissembling or flattering with any sort or State of men and that is most expedient for all euen for Princes themselues rather to heare with humilitie what God hath decreed for their saluation than to run to their owne destruction without recalling or warning So Samuel reproued king Saul Ahias king Ieroboam Elias king Achab Elizeus king Iehoram Iohn Baptist king Herod Neither were wicked Princes onely but also the good and vertuous kinges of Iudah reproued by the Prophets as namely king Dauid by Nathan king Iehosaphat by Iehu and Ezechias by the Prophet Esaie but this reproofe reached no farther than to put them in minde of Gods graces and mercies towardes them and their dueties againe towardes him They neuer offered violence to their Persons nor preiudice to their States onely they did Gods message vnto them without halting or doubling and so should euery Preacher and Bishop not feare with meekenesse and reuerence to laye before Princes the sacred and righteous will of God without respect whether Princes tooke it in good or euill part But farther or other attemptes against Princes than in wordes to declare the will and precepts of God God hath not permitted vnto Preachers Prophets Prelats nor Popes Phi. Yes they may repell them from the Sacramentes which is more than reprouing them in words Theo. If you meane they may not minister the Sacramentes vnto Princes without faith and repentance which God requireth of men that shall be baptized or haue accesse to his table we graunt they must rather hazard their liues than baptize Princes which beleeue not or distribute the Lordes mysteries to them that repent not but giue wilful and open signification of impietie to the dishonoring of his name that is authour of those thinges and the prophaning of the thinges them-selues which bee holie and vndefiled For if Princes will bee partakers of Gods aboundaunt blessinges proposed in Christ his Sonne to all that beleeue and conuert they must not looke to commaund God and his Sacramentes but with lowlines of hart assuraunce of fayth and amendment of life submit themselues vnder the mighty hand of God to receiue his graces in such sort as hee hath prescribed otherwise they prouoke God to their vtter and eternall ouerthrowe and the minister that ioyned with them in their sinnes shall not bee seuered from them in their plagues God hating and punishing the pride and presumption of Princes against him-selfe as much as the vices of meaner men or rather more No small vengeance sayth Chrysostom hangeth ouer your heades which be ministers if you suffer any heynous offendour to be partaker of this table His blood shall be required at your hands Whether he be Captaine Lieutenant or crowned king if hee come vnworthily forbid him in this case thy power is greater than his Phi. If they may be excommunicated ergo they may be deposed Theo. How doth that follow Phi. Well enough When a Prince is excommunicated hee looseth all right to rule and his subiectes are streight-wayes free from yeelding any obedience to him Theo. Who tould you so Phi. No catholike Diuine of
depriue Princes of their Crownes and take their Scepters from them because the Apostle willed the christians to be tried rather by their brethreÌ„ than by their enemies which were Infidels Phi. In all which there is no difference betwixt kinges that bee faithfull and other Christian men who all in that they haue submitted themselues and their Scepters to the sweete yoke of Christ are subiect to discipline and to their Pastors authority no lesse than other sheepe of his fold Theo. In beleeuing the word receiuing the Sacraments and obeying the Lawes of God there is no difference betweene the Ruler and the Subiect but the temporall states and possessions of priuate men you may not meddle with by no color of ecclesiastical power or discipline much lesse may you touch the bodies or take the Crownes of Princes into your handes by your accidentall indirect authoritie which is nothing else but a sillie shift of yours to crosse the commaundements of God Phi. Though the state regiment policie and power temporall be in it selfe alwaies of distinct nature qualitie and condition from the gouernment ecclesiasticall and spirituall common wealth called the church or bodie mysticall of Christ and the Magistrate spirituall and ciuill diuerse and distinct and sometimes so farre that the one hath no dependance of the other nor subalteration to the other in respect of themselues as it is in the Churches of God residing in heathen kingdoms and was in the Apostles times vnder the Pagan Emperours yet now where the lawes of Christ are receiued and the bodies politike and mysticall the Church and ciuill state the Mâ—gistrate Ecclesiasticall and Temporall concurre in their kinds togither though euer of distinct regimentes natures and endes there is such a concurrence and subalternation betwixt both that the inferiour of the two which is the ciuill state must needs in matters pertayning any way either directly or indirectly to the honor of God and benefit of the soule be subiect to the spirituall and take direction from the same Theo. This is tossing of termes as men doe tenez-balles to make pastime with The state regiment policie and power temporall is in it selfe you saie alwaies of distinct nature qualitie and condition from the gouernment ecclesiasticall and spirituall Common-wealth called the Church or bodie mysticall of Christ. You seeke to confound that which you would seeme to distinguish and when you haue spent much breath to no ende you conclude that though the church and the Common-wealth be distinct states as you can not denie yet you will rule both by reason the Common-wealth as the inferiour of the two dependeth on the Church and hath subalternation to the church as to the superiour But Sir in plaine termes and more trueth to the Sonne of God ruling in his Church by the might of his worde and spirite all kingdomes and Princes must be subiect their swordes Scepters soules and bodies mary to the Pope attyring himselfe with the spoiles of Christ and his church no such thing is due The watch-men and sheepeheardes that serue Christ in his church haue their kinde of regiment distinct from the temporall power and state but that regiment of theirs is by counsell and perswasion not by terrour or compulsion and reacheth neither to the goods nor to the bodies of any men much lesse to the crownes and liues of Princes and therefore your shifting of wordes and shrinking from the Popes Consistorie to the Church the spirituall Common wealth the mysticall bodie of Christ and such like houering and vncertaine speaches is but a trade that you haue gotten to make the Reader beleeue wee derogate from Christ and would haue Princes superiours to the worde and Sacramentes which Christ hath left to gather and gouerne the church withall Howbeit this course is so common with you that now it doth but shame you A christian king must take direction not from the Popes person or pleasure but from the Lawes and commaundementes of Christ to whome alone hee oweth subiection And as for the Bishoppes and Pastours of his Realme whome you falsly call the spirituall Common-wealth and the mysticall bodie of Christ because they bee but partes thereof and not so much except withall they bee teachers of truth those he must and should consult in respect they be Gods messengers sent to him and his people but with great care to trie them and free libertie to refuse them if they be found not faithfull And when the Prince learning by their instruction what is acceptable to God in doctrine and discipline shall receiue and publish the same the Bishoppes themselues are bounde to obey and if they will not the Magistrate may lawfully see the rigour of his lawes executed vpon them On the other side if the Prince wil not submit himselfe to the rules and preceptes of Christ but wilfully maintaine heresie and open impietie the Bishops are without flatterie to reproue and admonish the Prince of the daunger that is imminent from God and if he persist they must cease to communicate with him in diuine prayers and mysteries but still they must serue him honour him and pray for him teaching the people to doe the like and with meekenesse induring what the wrath of the Prince shal lay on them without annoying his person resisting his power discharging his subiectes or remouing him from his throne which is your maner of censuring Princes Phi. The ciuill Gouernour is SVBIECT to the spirituall amongest christians Theo. I haue often tolde you howe The ciuill Gouernour must heare beleeue and obey the meanest seruaunt that God sendeth if hee speake no more than his Masters will That subiection Princes owe to the sender and not to the speaker But were they simplie subiect to the messengers of God as they are not will you reason thus Princes should obey the Preachers of God ergo if they doe not they may bee deposed This is the argument which wee so often haue denied why then labour you so much about the antecedent when we denie the consequent That Princes shoulde obey God and his worde is a clearer case than that they shoulde obey the Pope For of that no man doubteth and this wee not onely doubt but denie Take therefore that which is confessed on both sides and set your conclusion to it that the force of your reason may the better appeare Princes without all question are bounde to obey God ergo if they doe not their dueties to God they may be deposed by Priestes This is the sequele which we alwaies denied and this is the point which you first assumed to proue Phi. The condition of these two powers as S. Gregorie Nazianzen most excellently resâ—mbleth it is like vnto the distinct state of the same spirit and body or flesh in a man where either of them hauing their proper and peculiar operations endes and obiectes which in other natures may be seuered as in Brutes where flesh is not spirit in Angels
much lesse so great a Prince Truly I prepared to depart for so Montanus your messenger knoweth that vpon the receit of your letters if your grace vouchsafed but to write I might presently bee gone with my readines to obay preuent your rescript For I am not so madde as to thinke I may contradict such preceptes With what forehead then can they say I obaied not powers Neuer recken this man for a resistant that so many wayes protesteth and confirmeth his obedience to Princes learne you rather to follow his submission and draw him not against his own both deeds and wordes to be of your faction Phi. The people of Alexandria were twise or thrise in an vprore about him first vnder Constantius and after vnder Valens Theo. The people of Alexandria were very tumultuous and raised many horrible garboyles both in the Church and common wealth Socrates saith of them Populus Alexandrinus prae alijs populis seditionibus delectatur si quando occasionem seditionis fuerit nactus ad intolerabilia mala prorumpit nec sine sanguine sedatur The people of Alexandria delight in sedition more than other Cities and if at any time they catch any occasion to make a tumult they runne headlong to foule outrages and neuer end but with blood The selfe same report Euagrius giueth of them The people are soone stirred and easilie incited to a tumult most of all others they of Alexandria who by reason of their great number those obscure persons and of all sortes are insolent rash bold and in furie will venter on any thing Lamentable examples whereof you may reade in the stories of the church describing the horrible fights and slaughters that were between the Iewes Gentiles and Christians of that Citie as wel against the trueth as with it And therefore in these populous and tumultuous Cities if you did shew some insurrections of the people for their pastors it would doe you no great good Men haue raised tumults in al ages and that doth iustifie rebellion in you no more than Cains sword dipt in his brothers bloud at the first beginning of the world and neuer since drie doth warrant theeues to take mens liues by the high waies side yea rather lesse for they kill to supplie their needes you to reuenge your grifes they vnhorse priuate men you vnthrowe Princes they rifle howses you spoile kingdomes they fly vpon the fact you stand to the defence of it before the whole world Farre from this affection were S. Basil and S. Ambrose as euen now wee saw and Athanasius as farre if you dare trust him on his oth if not you shall shift him neerer by his acts When he saw the people of his Church grudge at the Emperours precept to remoue him from his seat and readie to take weapon in hand hee departed the citie Under Valens the people of that citie likewise resisted and would not suffer any violence to be offered Athanasius by the Captaines vntill the Emperours pleasure were precisely knowen touching Athanasius In so much that the multitude flocking together and a great hurlie burlie rising in the Citie a sedition was feared When the people some daies after was appeased Athanasius by night closely conueigheth himselfe out of the Citie Others saie that foreseeing the rashnes of the multitude and fearing least he should seeme to be the author of that euill which might ensue he hid him selfe all that time in his fathers tumbe Thus when hee might haue beene defended by the people hee would not and because they suffered him not to depart from them by day hee frale from them by night and left his Bishopricke to be disposed by the prince The like did Chrysostome in his troubles For when the people knew of his deposition they brake out into an vprore and would not suffer those that had it in charge from the Emperour to carrie him into banishment Chrysostom fearing least any other crime should bee fastned on him either that he did not obay the Emperour or that he stirred the people to sedition the third day after his depriuation priuilie leaueth his Church and yeeldeth himselfe to be caried into exile So that by S. Chrysostomes iudgement it is first a fault in a Bishop not to obay the Prince next it is an other fault to stirre the people to sedition be the cause neuer so good as Chrysostomes was not badde Phi. Likewise against Valens the Arrian Emperour Petrus successour to Athanasius and brother to S. Basil did seeke to the Pope of Rome for succour as al other afflicted Bishoppes and Catholikes euer did Theo. The Bishop of Rome in those daies was neither so mightie that he could nor wicked that he would assist subiects with armes against their Soueraignes Peter Bishop of Alexandria brought letters from Damasus Bishop of Rome allowing his election and Confirming the same the people vpon that spying their time displaced Lucius an Arrian and receiued Peter their right Bishoppe Phi. And what was this but resistance to the Prince Theo. Resist they might and did but not with armes Phi. Which way then Theo. By refusing his communion disobeying his iurisdiction and withdrawing their duties from him yeelding the same to Peter as to their lawful and true Bishop Phi. Socrates sayth the people taking courage expelled Lucius and set Peter in his place Theo. They might driue him away and make him forsake the Citie though not with armes But whatsoeuer the people did against Lucius in their heate hauing as I noted before vnto you out of the same writer a very sharp and seditious humour and being miserably handled by Lucius as scourged with whippes their flesh torne with hookes and diuersly tormented with fire vnto death the letters of Damasus incited them to no such thing but onely approued the election of Peter Phi. But Peter it shoulde seeme allowed the people in their enterprise for by their tumult he recouered his Bishopricke Theo. You must not imagine rebellions where none are written The people draue Lucius from the See being an intruder an heretike and a murderer other tumult the Storie doth not mention Phi. The Prince had placed Lucius there Theo. The election of Bishops in these dayes belonged to the people and not to the Prince and though Valens by plaine force placed him there yet might the people lawfully reiect him as no Bishoppe and cleaue to Peter their right Pastor Phi. Might they reiect him with armes Theo. I said not so Phi. But so they did Theo. That must you proue we find no such thing in the Storie neither of Socrates nor Sozomene Phi. Socrates sayth they expelled him Theo. But not with armes Phi. Do you thinke hee would yeeld without force Theo. Do you thinke any great force needed for a whole Citie to expell one man But why come you with thoughts when you should bring vs proofes That hee was expelled wee graunt but whether
the Pope shal haue ouer Princes And if Nobilitie might preiudice trueth as in deede it can not why should the iudgement of Baptista Fulgosius in this case bee preferred before a thousand others of greater Nobilitie that haue taken part with their Princes against the Pope Meaner states than Princes will not lose their liberties for the Duke of Genua and therefore if you seeke for the right of the cause it must be tried neither by Dukes Popes nor Princes The word of God doeth not goe by the verdicts of men If you stand not on that but on the vices of Henrie and vertues of Gregorie Your Italian Duke is too yong to pronounce exactly what they were that died some hundreds before he was borne Phi. Trithemius reporteth in briefe thus of the wickednes of this Emperour Episcopatus Constantiensem c. He sold the Bishopriks of Constance Bamburgh Mentz and diuers others for money those of Ausbourg Straisbourgh for a sword that of Munster for Sodomie and the Abbacie of Fuld for adulterie Heauen and earth witnes and crie out on these and for the same abhominations he standeth excommunicated and depriued and therfore hath no power nor iust title to raigne ouer vs Catholikes Theo. This is the next way to build the Tower of Babel to descend from a Duke to an Abbat from one that liued fiueskore yeeres agoe to one that died not much more than threeskore yeeres since and to thinke by men of your own faction that were aliue in this our age to make proofe of thinges that were done fiue hundreth yeeres before Trithemius an Abbate of late dayes hath no credite in this case you must shewe vs some elder writer and nearer the time wherein these things were done or else wee shall passe it ouer as a peeuish and pestilent slaunder Phi. Wee haue elder if you list to beleeue them but you will discredite them as you doe Trithemius Theo. I discredite not Trithemius but leâ—ue him his due commendation onely I say there is no reason that a man of your side and our age shoulde bee the first and sole deponent of matters many hundreth yeeres elder than himselfe Phi. Wee haue long before him that did witnesse the same Theo. Produce them Phi. Dodechinus who liued within an hundreth yeeres of that time hath the same report woorde for woorde of Henry the fourth that Trithemius hath Theo. Wee find that repeated by Dodechinus but not of his owne knowledge or iudgement Valtrame Bishop of Megburg wrate a sober and seemely letter to Countie Lodouike to perswade him to submit himselfe to the king and not to resist the powers which God had ordayned Lodouike puffed with pride and filled with disdaine wrate backe to Valtrame a furious and spiteful libell both against the Bishoppe and the king wherein these thinges are obiected to the Prince without farther triall or testimonie Both their letters Abbate Dodechine inserteth in his storie So that the first author of this tale was Lodouike in fauour of himselfe disfaming the Prince which hee sought to subuert and what credite that can haue in the eares of indifferent men let the wise consider Where hee sayth the Emperour sold the Bishopriks of Ratisbon Ausbourg and Straisbourgh for a sword his malice was so great that he could not dissemble his follie For hee that tooke but a swoorde for three Bishoprikes was no great Symonist your holy father would haue made a better bargaine for him selfe if hee had had the sale of them Sure swordes were very deare or Bishoprikes very good cheape when the Prince let goe three Bishoprikes for a sword Such toyes you seeke to deface Princes and so quickly you giue credite to him that wil say any thing against them How Henry the fourth behaued himselfe in giuing the Abbaie of Fulde and Bishopricke of Mounster I know not neither doe I find it credibly reported in any good writer The rebellious heart and conuicious mouth of Fredericke first raised this vncleane suspition vpon the Emperour and you now are as earnest to proclaime your Abbasses for Whores and your Bishops for Sodomites rather than you wil distrust the bare accusation of a Malcontent against his Prince you bee so linked with him in cause and condition But for our partes as wee detest the vices so wee beleeue not euerie crime that an enimie and a rebell in excuse of himselfe list to vpbraide his Prince with wee require some surer proofe for so hainous a crimination as this is before wee trust the vnbridled tongue of a seditious subiect against his Soueraigne Marianus Scotus and Lambertus Scafnaburgensis which liued both of them at the same time with Henry the fourth and were to flatterers of his but fautours of Hildebrand and of the Saxones that rebelled against him neuer charged him with those enormities Dodechinus him selfe when he commeth to the final censure of Henries faults and offences omitteth these as vnlikely or at least as vnproued and saith He sold all spiritual liuings and was inobedient to the Sea Apostolike by setting Wigbert in Gregories place by exceeding the order of Christianitie towarde his lawfull wife and by neglecting the sentence of the Apostolike See These bee the crimes for the which Dodechinus saith he was iustly cast out of the Church And Marianus saith he was excommunicated maximè propter Symoniam chiefly for Symonie not for Sodomitrie He that wrate the life of Henry the fourth presently vpon his death a modest auncient and Christian reporter of such things as hapned vnto that Emperour saith of the Saxons and others that sought to palliate their ciuile sedition with a faire shew Confictis conscriptisque super eo criminibus quae pessima immundissima potuit odium liuor excogitare quae mihi scribenti tibique legenti nauseam parerent si ea ponerem vera falsis miscentes apud Romanum Pontificem Gregorium septimum eum deferebant Faining and articulating crimes against him the worst and most vncleanest that hatred and enuie could imagine which are lothsome for me to write and thee to reade if I should name them and mingling some trueth amongst their lies they complained of him to Gregorie the seuenth the Bishop of Rome Vrspergensis saith The Saxons making a generall coniuration against the King put vppe against him to the See Apostolike accusationes blasphemas inauditas blasphemous accusations and neuer heard of before These blasphemous and fained accusations you rake vp againe and publish them to the worlde with great sooth vppon the credit of an Abbate that liued in this our age such is your discretion and grauitie that you patrone not onlie the violent and armed rage of rebels against their Prince but euen their vnhonest and lothsome suspitions If we would bring against Gregorie the seuenth not laymen but Bishops not one but many not straungers but his owne Italians Romanes and Cardinals that knewe him and were conuersant with
writer witnesseth who also bringeth three reportes of his death one that hee fell mad and slue himselfe an other that in hunting he was cast off his horse and torne of dogges the thirde that wandering into a straunge Countrie he became a skullin in a certaine monasterie and there in repentance ended his life Phi. If his ende were so straunge his life coulde not bee good Theo. I commend not his life if it be true that Cromerus writeth of him I rather acknowledge the iust iudgement of God in taking vengeance of his sinnes Phi. Why doe you not acknowledge the like in his deposition Theoph. Because the Pope is not God to whom the punishing of Princes sinnes doeth rightly belong Phi. Would you that Princes should kill Bishops at the verie Altar for doing their duties and yet goe free Theo. As if God were not both as sincere and seuere a iudge as the Pope Phi. Who doubteth of that Theo. Then shall they not goe free that sinne against his lawe bee they Princes or others Phi. I speake of the meane time before that day come wherein hee shall iudge Theo. And in the meane time which you speake of God mightily punisheth all sortes and states though not by the Pope Phi. He punisheth by diseases and straunge kinde of deathes as hee seeth cause but yet good Lawes must be made and maintained by men for the repressing of vice amongst men Theo. Uerie true but those lawes must bee made by Princes and not by Popes Bishops haue not to do with the sworde which God hath giuen vnto Princes for the punishment of euill doers Phi. And what if Princes them-selues be the doers of euill who shall punish them Theo. Euerie soule must bee subiected to them and they to God They beare the sworde ouer others not others ouer them Besides them or aboue them no man beareth the sworde by Gods appointment Phi. The keyes are aboue the sworde Theo. The keyes open and shutte the kingdome of God they touch not the bodies nor inheritances of priuate men much lesse of Princes Onely the sworde is corporally to compell and punish which is not the Priestes but the Princes charge as I haue often shewed Phi. To let Princes doe what they will without feare of punishment is the next way to ouerthrow common-wealthes Theo. What kingdom can you shewe wherein it hath beene otherwise Saul willed Doeg in his presence to â—lea fourescore and fiue of the Lordes Priestes and hee smote their citie with the edge of the sworde both men women children and sucklinges Did Abiathar the high Priestes sonne that fledde and escaped depriue Saul of his kingdome or did Dauid for whose cause they were slain when shortly after hee had Saul in his power to doe with him as hee woulde seeke the kings life or suffer his men to take it that were readie to doe it Dauid when he was king defloured Bethsabe and caused her husbande to be murdered Did therefore any Priest or Prophet in all his Realme offer to depose him or did Absolon well to conspire against him Achab ioyned with Iesabel in putting Naboth to death and killing the Lords Prophets Did Elias depriue him or incite his subiectes to forsake him Herod beheaded Iohn Baptist and likewise Iames and apprehended Peter with a purpose to sende him after but that hee was deliuered by an Angell did Peter therefore take vengeance on Herode which hee might haue done with a worde as well as on Ananias or did he leaue him to the iudgement of God which shortly after insued with an horrible plague The tyrantes of all ages and vices of all princes both before the comming of our Sauiour and since haue they beene punished by Priestes as you woulde haue it or else haue they beene reserued to Gods tribunals as we affirme Phi. Some haue beene punished by Priestes though not all Theoph. Shew but one prince for fiue thowsand yeares since the first foundation of the earth that was iudicially cited examined corrected by a priest til Hildebrand began this new president If any princes were during all that time repressed it was done by their own states realms that for their extreme tyranny priests alwaies refrained those attempts and neuer thought it any part of their vocatioÌ„ to medle with the changing and altering of kingdoms Phi. It is a better readier way to reforme princes to subiect them to the tribunall of one godly Bishop as we do than to leaue them in thraldome to popular tumults and mutinies as you do Theo. We leaue them in thraldom to none but only to God and to serue him is no thraldome but an honorable and princely liberty Yet if princes were to choose their iudges among men they were farre better referre themselues to the generall consent of their Nobles commons at home than hold their scepters at the pleasures of disdainful seditious Popes which seeke to dishonor their persons impouerish their Realmes Phi. You speake this of spite Theo. Your own examples wil proue it a truth How dealt Adrian the fourth and Alexander the third with Frederike the first a wise valiaunt and vertuous prince Did not Adrian receiue a great summe of mony to excommunicate the Emperor the stomack which the pope tooke against the prince grew it not vpon these causes for that the Emperor in his letters put his own name before the Popes and required homage fealty of the Bishops for their temporalities and would not suffer the Cardinals to pray vpon the churches of Germany Did not the Cardinals conspire bind themselues with an oth that they would neuer choose any to be Pope but one that should be an opposite to this Emperor And when AlexaÌ„der the third was shuffled in by that faction against Victor did he not twise refuse to haue the matter discussed by councel and stirred vp the kings of Scicily France and the states of Venice against the Emperour and caused all the cities countries of Italie to rebell against him and hauing taken his thirde sonne prisoner would hee restore him or make peace with the father til in presence of al the people at the dore of S. Marks church in Venice the prince had cast his body flat on the ground the pope setting his foote on the Emperors neck had auanced himself with that part of the Psalme which saith Thou shalt walke vpoÌ„ the aspe the basilisk and shalt tread the lion and dragon vnder thy feete The parts that were plaied by the Bishops of Rome with Frederike the second Lodouik of Bauaria king Iohn of this Lande and Lewes the 12. of that name king of France which are your own examples if I should largely pursue theÌ„ a whole volume would not suffice them I wil therfore rip vp so much only as shal let the reader see with what cunning these princes were wearied with what pride they
did whom you cal a blessed bishop for his labor your selues do worse For you be not cōtent to resist as he did by wilfull departing the Realm you take weapon in hand to depose the Prince terme it iust honorable warre to rebell against a lawfull Magistrate which impiety he did not declare in act though in heart perhaps he did not abhor it But omit that he ment and come to that hee did except you shew what one thing in those ancient lawes of the crowne to which the Archbishop had expresly sworne was repugnant to the word of God or office of a christian Prince we conclude your blessed Bishop and Canterburie Saint to be a shameful defender of wickednesse an open breaker of his oth and a proude impugner of the sword which God hath authorized as the Scripture teacheth And albeit wee like not the maner of his death that priuate men shoulde vse the sword which is deliuered vnto princes yet the cause for which he withstood the king was enormous impious dying in that though his death were violent he could be no martyr Phi. You be loth to haue him a martyr he was so far both frō your opinion in this point religion otherwise but yet he died in the defence of the Catholike church therefore we iustly count him blessed Theo. Hee died not in defence of the church he stoode stifly for the Popes pride and gaine and for the impunitie of malefactours among the Clergie which thinges no way touch the true lawes or liberties of Christes church And therefore you must either proue that clergie men are not subiect to the Princes sword for heinous offences which is most false and that appeales from all places must bee made to the Bishop of Rome which you shall neuer do or else it is euident that Thomas Becket deserued rather the reward of a traytor than the honour of a Martyr these two being the principall causes for which he resisted the king whiles hee liued and was canonized after he was murdered Phi. The church of Rome liked and allowed of his doings though you doe not Theo. She had good reason so to do He gaue his life for the maintenance of her wealth and ease and therefore if shee shoulde not esteeme him shee were to blame but this was no quarell for a christian Bishop to spend his blood in The due correction of offenders by the temporal sworde though they were clergie-men and diligent execution of iustice at home without running to Rome when either part was disposed to vexe the other were lawfull and wholesome preceptes of the kinges of this Realme and so long as the resistance made by the Archbishop against the king was sinfull and seditious consequently the state he stood in damnable though the death he suffered were wrongfull as not proceeding orderly from a magistrate but furiously inflicted by some that were offended to see a Bishop brest a king in so vile a cause Phi. The king himselfe in the end was driuen to order and penance Theo. It was easie for you when not only his neighbours but his owne son rose in armes against him to winne his consent to any thing By warres and inuasions of Realme vpon Realme by defection of subiects from their soueraignes by the rebellion of children against their parentes your cunning hath beene to driue Princes to order and keepe them in awe but that doth not iustifie your vnnaturall and vnchristian tumults to force them to your bent We dispute not whether of late you haue so done but whether of right you may so doe wee see the meanes which Antichrist hath vsed to aduance his kingdom but those we say be neither agreeable to the sacred scriptures nor to the course of Christs church in former ages they be late deuises practises of Popes to exalt themselues aboue the highest the iustice of God preparing that plague for the sinnes of men and dissention of Princes which should haue ioyned togither to succour his truth safegard his church by repressing the Popes pride driuing him to Christian integritie and modesty and would not Wherefore God gaue them ouer into his hands that he should tread on their necks play with their crownes as pleased himselfe and they thinke it some great honor and preferment to kisse his feete hold his bridle whiles he gets to horsebacke Phi. A number of the like examples mo we might recite of our Country of the christian world whereby not only the practise of the church in al ages may be seene but also catholike men warranted that they be no traitors nor hold assertions treasonable false or vndutiful in answering or beleeuing that for heresie or such like notorious wickednesse a Prince otherwise lawfull and annointed may be excommunicated deposed forsaken or resisted by the warrant of holy churches iudgement and censure Theo. From the conquest to King Henrie the eight there was no Prince of this Land deposed by the Pope but only King Iohn Deposition was offered to Philip the fourth and Lewes the twelfth Kinges of Fraunce but they were so farre from taking it that they withdrewe their whole Realme from the Popes obedience and ouerreached your holy Father with his owne practise Philip by the general consent of his Nobles and Bishoppes not onely despised the Popes sentence of depriuation against him but requited him with the like and to tame his pride tooke him prisoner and made him end his life for very griefe of hart within sixe weekes after Thus sayth Platina died Bonifacius hee that went about rather to strike a terrour into Emperours kings Princes and Nations than to plant religion in them and chalenged to giue and take kingdomes and to aduaunce and debase men at his plasure And so saith Gaguinus This ende of his life had Bonifacius the contemner of all men who not remembring the precepts of Christ tooke vpon him to dispose crownes and depriue kinges as hee sawe cause whereas hee supplieth his roome on earth whose kingdō is not of this world nor in earthly things but in heauenly and gate the Popedome by deceit and vngodly meanes and kept his predecessour in prison so long as he liued from whom he wrested that dignity This example you would not alleadge because you sawe the whole Realme of Fraunce stoode with Philip against Bonifacius that the Pope had no right to depose Princes Lewes the twelft in a Councel at Tours had the resolution of al the French Bishops that he might surcease from the Popes obedience and contemne his vniust censures and had not Maximilian somwhat slacked and Iulius in the meane time died the Pope himselfe had bin depriued of his triple crowne in the Councell of Pisa which was indicted by the Prelates of Germanie and Frāce at the instaunce and pursuite of Lodouike The Bishops of Nations assembled and decreed Iulius to be cited Vpon the
as you affirme you may but with reuerence and humilitie serue God before the Prince and that is nothing against our oth Phi. Then is not the Prince supreme Theo. Why so Phi. Your selues are superiour when you will serue whom you list Theo. As though to serue God according to his will were to serue whom we list and not whom Princes and all others ought to serue Phi. But you will be iudges when God is well serued and when not Theo. If you can excuse vs before God when you mislead vs we wil serue him as you shall appoint vs otherwise if euerie man shal answere for himselfe good reason he be master of his owne conscience in that which toucheth him so neere and no man shall excuse him for Phi. This is to make euery priuate man supreme iudge of religion Theo. The poorest wretch that is may be supreme Gouernour of his owne hart Princes rule the publike and external actions of their Countries but not the consciences of men and therefure this thwartling is to no purpose Phi. By what authoritie then in the first Parliament of the Queenes highnesse raigne was the determination decision and definition of truethes or of heresies and errors of the true worship of God and the false attributed to that Court of the states no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other general Councel to which the deciding of such things is there granted with this limitation so far as they can warrant their doings by the expresse wordes of Canonical Scriptures and no farther but to the Parliament absolutely decreeing at the same time that nothing there determined should be counted heresie errour or schisme what order decree sentence constitution or law so euer were to the contrarie the holy Scriptures themselues not excepted Theo. It is no wonder to see you quarel with the court of the Sates that are so busie with the Princes Crowne And therein as in the former your behauiour doth not change For entring with a manifest vntrueth and keeping on a course of emptie and haughtie wordes which is your glorie you tell vs at length with pride enough that our Lawes be strange and vnnatural dealings proceedings dishonourable to her MAIESTIE and the Realme against Gods expresse commaundement lymiting his constant and permanent trueth to mortall mens willes and fancies violent disorders which to all our posteritie must needes breede shame and rebuke vniust and therefore bind not in conscience repugnant to the dignitie and priuiledges of the Church against the oth of the makers and in deed no Lawes at all the makers lacking competent power authoritie and iurisdiction to proceed iudicially and authentically to heare determine and define 〈◊〉 giue sentence in any such things as be meere ecclesiasticall with a number of those bold and stately bragges hauing neither proofe of your part nor reproofe of ours but only pretending certain legalities quiddities solemnities of humane iudgements which in Gods cause be very ridiculous and in matters of faith more than superfluous For God will not haue his trueth depend either on the numbers or qualities of persons and when his word is offered we may not stand staggering till the Pope and his Cardinals please to assemble and there iudicially and authentically heare and determine what they thinke good which I winne they wil neuer against themselues Christ sent not iudges with iudicial processe but a few disciples with the sound of their voices to conuert the world the Prophetes that taught the people of God and reproued both Priests and Princes vsed no legall nor authenticall proceedings but a bare proposing the will of God to such as woulde beleeue The Kings and Princes before Christ that subuerted Idols and refourmed religion in their realmes relyed on their Princely Power and zeale for the doing of that seruice and not on the ceremoniall and sententiall acts and decrees of Priests or Prophets The Christian Princes take which you will that first receiued and after restored the faith in their Empires and kingdomes tied not them selues to the voices and suffrages of the Clergie that were in present possession of their Churches but often times remoued them without Councel or common consultation You may do well to correct S. Paul where he saith faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God and to adde faith commeth by iudiciall cognition and competent iurisdiction of such as haue legall meanes to deliberate and pronounce of God and his trueth Phi. Would you haue such disorder and confusion suffered in the Church that euery man should follow what he list Theo. I would not haue such presumption or wickednesse brought into the Church that Christ or his worde should be subiected to the wils or voices of mortall men for though the whole world pronounce against him or it God wil be true and all men shall be liars Phi. No more would wee Theo. Why then restraine you trueth to the assemblees and sentences of Popes and Prelats as though they must bee gently entreated and fayrely offered by Christ before he might attempt or shoulde expect to recouer his owne Phi. Wee would haue things done orderly Theo. Call you that order where Christ shall stand without doores till your Clergie consent t◠bring him in Phi. God is not the author of confusion but of peace Theo. It is no confusion for one familie yea for one man to serue God though all the families and men of the same realme besides will not Ioshua sayd to the whole people If it seeme euill vnto you to serue the Lorde choose you this day whome you will serue but I and myne house will serue the Lorde Elias was left alone for any that he sawe willing to serue God in Israel and yet that abated not his zeale Micheas alone opposed him-selfe against foure hundreth Prophetes with what iudiciall authoritie can you tell Ieremie assured the Priests and Prophetes of Ierusalem that God would forsake them and that hee did without any legall meanes that wee can read Amos spared neither Ieroboam the King nor Amaziah the Priest and yet he was but a simple heardman and not so much as the sonne of a Prophet Iohn Baptist had no competent iurisdiction ouer the Scribes and Pharisees that sate in Moses chayre and yet hee condemned them for a generation of vipers The Councels where Peter Steuen Paul and other of the Disciples were conuented accused and punished lacked none of your iudiciall formalities and solemnities and yet the Apostles stoutly resisted and vtterly contemned both their deliberatiue and their definitiue sentences In deede your forefathers assaulted our Sauiour him-selfe with that very question as also they did Iohn before him and the Apostles after him When the Lord was teaching in the temple the chiefe Priestes and the elders of the people came vnto him and sayde by what authoritie doest
well erre in their generations before vs Phi. They kept the steppes of their fathers which if you doe you shall not erre Theo. This is the next way round about to come to the wood For how will you proue that euery generation which hath beene these 1500. yeares since Christ hath precisely kept the rules and limites of their forefathers Phi. You can not shew when or where they swarued Theo. If wee could not our ignorance in that point is no great securitie for your faith The defection of euerie age from their fathers might be either not marked or not recorded or since oblitered and therefore reason you proue your faith to haue descended from age to age without alteration before we beleeue it to be the faith of your fathers But what meaneth this that you prescribe that way to iudge of religion and the seruice of God which God himselfe prohibiteth Phi. Doth God forbid vs to follow our fathers Theo. In as plaine wordes as can be spoken with a tongue by the mouth of Ezechiel he saith Walke ye not in the preceptes of your fathers neither obserue their manners nor defile your selues with their idols I am the Lord your God walke in my statutes and keepe my iudgementes By Dauid he saith Let them not be as their fathers were a disobedient and rebellious generation a generation that set not their heart aright whose spirit was not faithful vnto God And dehorting them from their fathers steps To day saith Dauid if you wil heare Gods voice harden not your harts as in the day of coÌ„tention as in the day of temptation in the wildernes where your fathers tempted proued me though they had seen my workes Fourtie yeares did I contend with that generation and saide they are a people that erre in heart they haue not knowen my wayes By Zacharie he saith Be ye not as your fathers vnto whome the former Prophetes haue cried saying Thus saith the Lord of hostâ—â— turne you now from your euill waies and from your wicked workes but they would not heare nor harken vnto me saith the Lord. And what you count deuotion humilitie for the people to follow their fathers that God himself calleth defection conspiracie I haue protested vnto your fathers euer since I brought them out of the land of Aegypt to this day saying obey my voice Neuertheles they wold not obey nor incline their eare but euerie one walked in the stubbernesse of his wicked heart And of the children doing as their fathers did he saith A coÌ„spiracie is found among the men of Iudah and among the inhabitants of Ierusalem They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers that refused to heare my wordes With what face then can you deale so earnestly with the simple subiectes of this Land to regard neither God nor his word but only to runne the race of their Elders seeing God so straitly commaunded the children of Israel to beware the pathes and presidentes of their forefathers Phi. We must beware their wickednesse Theo. Then may they be wicked and so no paterns for vs or any others to follow Phi. The Iewes were wicked Theo. What charter can you shew that christians shall not be the like Phi. Hell gates shall not preuaile against the church of Christ. Theo. No more did they preuaile against the chosen and elect of Israel but the greatest number and gaiest men are not alwaies the church of God The foundation of God standeth sure and hath this zeale the Lord knoweth who are his Of his elect which are his true church our Sauiour hath pronounced it is not possible they should bee deceiued the rest haue no such priuilege yea rather the holy Ghost forewarneth that all besides the elect shall bee deceiued Our Sauiour our saith There shal arise false Christes and false Prophetes and shal shew great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they should deceiue the verie elect The rest then which are not elect they shall deceiue And so S. Paul speaking of the verie same deceiuers addeth whose comming is by the working of Satan with all power and in all deceiueablenesse of vnrighteousnesse among them that perish because they receiued not the law of the truth that they might be saued And therefore God shall sende them strong delusion that they should beleeue lies that al they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And S. Iohn speaking of the beast that made warre with the Saintes had power ouer euerie kindred and tongue and nation saith Therefore all that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life So that the visible church consisting of good bad elect and reprobate hath no such promise but she may erre only the chosen of Christ which are the true members of his body properly called his church they shall not erre vnto perdition and those if you could point them out with your finger the people might safely follow otherwise if you set men to follow the rest of their fathers be they neuer so many neuer so graue neuer so godly to your seeming you bid them take the wide gate and broade way that leadeth to destruction because there were many that entered it before them Phi. Will you make vs beleeue that our fathers are perished Theo. Who are perished is not for vs to pronounce They were his seruants that iudgeth iustly neither haue we to medle with their doome but to looke to our owne yet this we can assure you that many be called and few chosen And therefore if you aduise the people to imitate the multitude of their fathers you teach them the right way to hell And though wee may not iudge of your fathers yet knowe you for a certainty that God is not afraide to iudge them and condemne them if they refused his truth as you do Neither is it any such daungerous doctrine to say that our forefathers haue sinned and displeased God as you woulde make it the godly haue alwaies confessed it of their fathers and not spared to tell the wicked so much to their fates Dauid slandered not his forefathers when he said We haue sinned with our fathers we haue done wickedly Our fathers vnderstood not thy wonders in Aegypt neither remembred they the multitude of thy mercies but rebelled at the Sea euen at the red Sea Daniell knewe what he pronounced when hee confessed O Lord to vs belongeth open shame to our kinges to our Princes and to our fathers because wee haue sinned against thee Ezechiah was not ashamed to say Our fathers haue trespassed and done euill in the eyes of the Lord our God and haue forsaken him and turned their backes And loe our fathers are fallen by the sword Iohn told the Pharisees to their faces their fathers were vipers and
they lay but with such additions alterations expositions as they listed And this he maketh to be the very reason of his Rule in the wordes that go next before it The conference with them in the Scriptures can doe no good but either to stirre a mans stomacke or disquiet his braine This brood of heretikes receiue not certaine Scriptures and if they receaue any they frame them to their purpose with adding and taking from them those that they receiue they receaue them not whole and if they suffer them to stand whole they marre them with their forged expositions Their adulterating of the sense hurteth the trueth as much as their mayming of the sentences Diuers presumptions holde them from acknowledging the places by which they be conuinced they rest on those which they haue falsely corrupted ambiguously wrested Thou shalt loose nothing but thy voice in striuing with them thou shalt gaine nothing but the mouing of thy choler to heare them blaspheme And shewing that the hearers get lesse by such contentions he inferreth Ergo non ad scripturas prouocandum est we must therefore not prouoke them to the scriptures nor appoint there the conflict with them where the victory is none or not sure or skant sure enough Ireneus not long before him gaue the like report of theÌ„ for they both had to do with the selfsame sorts routs of heretiks WheÌ„ they are reproued by the scriptures they find fault with the scriptures theÌ„selues as though many things were amis in them the books of no autoritie doutfully written truth could not be had out of them if a man be ignorant of Tradition And againe when we vrge them to come to that Tradition which is kept in the Churches down from the Apostles by the successions of Bishops they vse to say that they as wiser not only than the Priests but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere trueth and that the Apostles did mingle certaine points of the law with the wordes of our Sauiour not the Apostles alone but Christ himselfe speak somtimes earthly somtimes heauenly somtimes mixely but they vndoubtedly in defiledly sincerely know the hidden mysterie The which is nothing els but most impudently to blaspheme their maker And so it commeth to passe that they acknowledge neither the Scriptures nor Tradition Such they be with whom we deale What maruell then if Tertullian gaue counsell that such heretikes should not be prouoked to the Scriptures not that the Scriptures be defectiue in matters of faith but for that the sectaries of his time denied corrupted and maimed the Scriptures and in deede no victorie can be hoped out of Scriptures where they be neither receiued nor reuerenced as scriptures And therefore Tetrullian had good cause to speake these words in respect of the persons that were thus impudent not in respect of the scriptures as if they were vnsufficieÌ„t That error of all others Tertullian was farthest from no where farther than in this very place which you quote Aliunde scilicet loqui possent de rebus fidei nisi ex literis fidei As though they could speake touching matters of faith out of any other than out of the books of faith And obiecting to theÌ„ this very point which we now striue for Sed credant sine scripturis vt credant aduersus scripturas Let heretiks saith he beleeue without Scriptures that they may beleeue against the scriptures To beleeue without scriptures is heretical as well as to beleeue against the scriptures the next step vnto it as Tertul. here placeth theÌ„ therefore defend not the 1. lest you fal to the 2. which is the ruine of all religioÌ„ Phil. S. Basill is plaine with vs if Tertul. be not Of the doctrines which are taught in the Church we haue some laid down in writing some againe we haue receaued by traditioÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles in a mystery that is in secret Whereof either hath like force to godlines neither doth any man contradict them that is but meanly acquainted with the lawes of the church For if we goe about to reiect those customes which are not written as of no moment before we be ware we shal condemn those things which are in the Gospel necessarie to saluation yea rather we shal bring the preaching of faith to a naked name And not long after in the same booke If nothing els hath beene receiued without scriptures neither let this be receiued but if we haue receiued many secrets without writing let vs also receiue this amongst those many I thinke it Apostolike to cleaue to traditions not written Theo. The booke which you alleage hath S. Basils name to it but the later part thereof whence those patches are taken haue neither S. Basils stile learning spirite nor age which Erasmus perceiued and confessed when he translated the book After I was past halfe the work saith he without wearines the phrase seemed to declare an other writer and to sauour of an other spirite somtimes the stile swelled as vnto the loftines of a trageâ—ie somtimes it calmed euen vnto a common kind of speach Many times there appeared some vanitie in the author as it were shewing that he had learned Aristotles predicameÌ„ts Porphiries 5. predicables Besides he digressed very ofteÌ„ froÌ„ the purpose returned vnhandsomly Last of al many things seemed to be here ther added which made litle to the matter in questioÌ„ And some things such as by their face shew their father to wit the same that hath interlaced the most lerned books of Athan. coÌ„cerning the holy ghost with his babling but trifling coÌ„ceits Phi. We care not for Erasm. iudgemeÌ„t The. You must care for Erasmus reasons vnles you caÌ„ disproue theÌ„ Phi. How proue you these places to be those that Erasm. meaneth The. If Erasmus had said nothing these places betray themselues Looke to the beginning ending of your first allegation you shall see that the middle fitteth them as well as â—atemeale doeth oysters The wordes next before are these It remaineth that we speake of the syllable with whence it came what force it hath and how farre it agreeth with the Scriptures Then your forger as a man suddainly rauished vtterly forgetting what he purposed entereth a vaine discourse of threâ—skore fifteene lines cleane besides the matter not so much as once mentioning that which hee first promised and endeth in a worse maze than be beganne with a conclusion more dissident from the middle than the middle was from the preface Dictum est igitur eaÌ„dem esse vim vtriusque proloquij So then we haue shewed that both propositions haue the same sense wherof he spake not one word in all that large discourse that went before And so he solemnly proposeth one thing digresseth abruptly to an other and concludeth absurdly with a third which ouersight in any bore were not sufferable
Authoritie to witnesse the same For example the worshipping and adoring of Christes Image with diuine honour concluded in your Schooles and practised in your churches is it not a wicked and blasphemous inuention of your owne against all Synodes and Fathers Greeke and Latine olde and newe that euer assembled or taught in the church of God besides your selues The seconde Nicene Councell which first beganne that pernicious pastime of saluting and kissing Images did they not in plaine wordes condemne this errour of yours when they saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vni Deo tribuimus diuine honour wee giue to God alone and not to images And againe I receiue and imbrace reuerent images but the adoration which is doone with diuine honor called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I reserue to the supersubstantiall and quickning Trinity onely and to no image Ionas Bishop of Orleans that wrote against Claudius Bishop of Turin in the defence of images 50. yeares after the second Nicene councell did hee not mightily detest your adoration of images as a most heinous errour and was not the whole church of Fraunce by his report of the same minde with him Suffer saith he the images of the Sainctes the histories of holy actions to be painted in the church not that they shold be worshipped but that they may be an ornament to the place and bring the simple to the remembraunce of thinges past Creaturam verò adorari etque aliquid diuinae seruitutis impendi pro nefas ducimus huiúsque scelâ—ris patratorem detestandum anathematizandum libera voce proclamamus But that any creature or Image should be adored or haue any part of diuine honour wee count it a wickednesse and with open voice proclaime the committer of that impiety worthy to bee detested and accursed And prouing by manifold authorities of scriptures and fathers that neither image neither any thing made with handes should be adored he addeth That which you say the worshippers of images answered you for the maintenaÌ„ce of their error we think no diuinity to be in the image which we adore but only in honor of the person whose image it is we worship it with such veneration that answere of theirs we reproue detest as wel as you because they do know there is no diuine thing in the image they be the more blame worthie for bestowing diuine honor on a weake beggarly Image the self same answere many of the East church entangled with this hainous error giue to such as rebuke theÌ„ the Lord of his mercy graÌ„t that yet at leÌ„gth both these and those may bee drawen from this superstition of theirs Fraunce hath Images and suffereth them to stand for the causes which I before rehearsed but they count it a great detestation abomination to haue them adored In this opinion stoode the west Churches a long time till your schoolemen started vp and ouer-ruled Religion with their sophisticall distinctions and solutions and they keeping the wordes of the later Nicene Councell and not marking their drift controled that which they concluded and brought in a lewder and wickeder kind of adoring of Images with the same honor that is due to the Principall The chiefe actor in this was your glorious Sainct and Clerke as you cal him Thomas Aquin who reiecting all that was decreed at Nice inferred against them that no reuerence could be exhibited to the Image of Christ in that it was a thing grauen or painted because reuerence is due to none but to a reasonable creature and alleaging Aristotles authoritie that the motion to the Image and originall is all one he resolueth in these wordes Cum Christus adoretur adoratione latriae consequens est quod eius imago sit adoratione latriae adoranda Since then Christ is adored with diuine honour it followeth that his Image must likewise be adored with the self-same diuine honour Bonauenture an other of your Romish Sainctes canonized by Sixtus the fourth goeth after Thomas with full saile Quin Imago Christi introducta est ad repraesentandum eum qui pro nobis Crucifixus est nec affert se nobis pro se sed pro illo ideo omnis reuerentia quae ei offertur exhibitur Christo propterea Imagini Christi debet cultus latriae exhiberi Whereas the Image of Christ representeth him that was crucified for vs and offereth it selfe vnto vs not for it self but for him in that respect all the reuerence which is giuen to it is done to Christ and therefore the Image of Christ must be honored with diuine adoration Holcote and Gerson somwhat disliked this assertion and disputed against it but the pronesse of the people to follow such fancies the greedines of Priestes and other religious persons to keepe and increase their offerings and the credite of Thomas his learning Sainctship and sectaries bare such a sway in the Church of Rome that the rest coulde not bee regarded nor heard and so the common opinion and resolution of your Churches and schooles as the fortresse of your faith confesseth was that the image of Christ should be worshipped with diuine honor whâ—ch you would faine shrinke from in our dayes the doctrine being both strange and wicked if you could tell howe but that the wordes are so plaine that no pretence can colour them Your schoole doctrine therefore of adoring images with diuine honour not onely prohibited by the law of God and abhorred of all ancient and Catholike fathers but euen renounced in the second Nicene councell as repugnant to truth and shunned in the West church for a thowsande yeares after Christ and vpwarde as a most wicked errour howe coulde it on the suddaine with a sillie distinction of sundrie respectes become catholike what greater wickednes can there be than to giue the honor of God to stockes and stones and to say you do it not in regard of the matter but of the resemblance which the image hath to the originall as though it could be an image vnlesse it had some resemblance either in deed or in our opinion to the thing it selfe or man were not a truer better image of God and yet in no respect to be adored with diuine honor or as if God prohibiting all images made with hands to be adored had not included as well their resemblance as their matter Why may not any Pagan by this euasion worship what creature he will say he beholdeth honoreth in it not the matter but the wisedome power of the Creator And what other conceit is this than that which the Iewish heathenish Idolaters when they were reproued answered that they adored not the thinges which they saw but conueied their adoration by the image to him that was inuisible If such prophane speculations may be suffered in Gods cause wee may soone delude all that GOD hath commanded with one respect or other The
reuerent estimation regard of them that they be not despised or abused although they be but signes So that water in baptism and the creatures of breade and wine in the Lordes supper which are the two examples here mentioned are to be reuerenced as things that be sacred by the word and ordinaÌ„ce of God but not to be adored and honored for the things themselues whose signes they are that were a miserable seruitude or rather the right death of the soule as Austen noteth And that the first teachers of truth remoued al Images as vnprofitable signes to serue God with the words before do plainly shew For speaking of the difference between the Iewes and the Gentils when they should be conuerted vnto Christ he saith ChristiaÌ„ liberty finding the Iewes vnder profitable signes to wit the rites Ceremonies of the Lawe did interprete the meaning of them and so by directing the people to the things themselues deliuered them from the seruitude of the signes but finding the Gentiles vnder vnprofitable signes for that they worshipped Images either as Gods or as the signes and resemblaunces of Gods ipsa signa fruâ—trauit remouitque omnia shee wholy remoued and frustrated the signes themselues that is shee would not suffer them to serue the true God with any such signes as bodily shapes and Images were Your honouring of Images is reproued as you see and not releeued by S. Augustines Rule And since the Lawe of God expressely and â—treitly chargeth you not so much as to bowe your bodies or knees to the likenesse of any thing in heauen or earth which is made with handes consult your owne consciences whether you may with your respects frustrate or with your routes ouerbeare the distinct and direct voice of God himselfe in his own Church And if you be not giuen ouer into a reprobate sense you wil say no. Now that which is against the Law of God can neither be Christian nor Catholike Your Doctrine therefore of bowing and kneeling to Images is repugnant both to the precepts of God and to the generall auncient resolution of Christs church your adoring them with diuine honour is a sacrilegious and flagitious as well noueltie as impietie Phi. You must not looke that we should defend the sayings doings of all that haue takeÌ„ part with the church of Rome If Thomas waded too far in worshipping Images if Gerson mistooke S. Augustine if the later Councell of Nice denied or strained some of the ancient Fathers you must not chalenge vs for their ouerâ—ightes The. We chalenge you for vaunting your selues to be Catholikes when in deede you doe nothing but smooth and sleike the corruptions and inuentions of later ages against the right ancient faith of Christs church The discent of Images with their adoration how late it began how often it varied how far at length it swarued froÌ„ the Primatiue original profession of the christiaÌ„ catholik faith we haue spent somtime to examine Let vs now approch to your praiers in a straÌ„ge toung which haue a great deal lesse shew of catholicism thaÌ„ images had yet are as egerly defended by you as images were Phi. In the Latine toung we haue praiers in a strange toung we haue none you rather that haue turned scriptures church seruice secretes for your pleasures into the English tongue make your praiers in a strange and vnwonted speach to catholik earesâ— The. To English meÌ„ the English toung is not strange Phi. I know they vnderstand it but I call it strange because they were not woont to haue the publike praiers of the Church in their mother toung Theo. In cases of religion we must respect not what men haue but what they should haue beene vsed to Cyprian saith well Consuetudo sine veritate vetustas erroris est Custome without trueth is but the long continuance of error so Tertullian Quodcunque aduersus veritatem sapit hoc erit haeresis etiam vetus consuetudo Whatsoeuer is against the trueth it must bee counted heresie though it be an old Custom The Councell of Carthage where Cyprian was resolued thuâ— The Lord saith in the Gospel I am trueth he said not I am custom Trueth therefore appearing let custom yeeld to truth Phi. That councel erred in neglecting the old custom which the church obserued Theo. But yet their generall assertion which I alleage was so strong that S. Augustine saith to those very wordes Plane respondeo quis dubitet veritatis manifestae debere consuetudinem cedere I plainly answere who doubteth but that custom must yeeld to the trueth appearing Phi. Neither doe we doubt of that but how proue you this to be a manifest trueth that the people of this Land must haue their diuine seruice in the English tongue Theo. It is the manifest precept of him that said I am trueth and witnessed in the Scripture which is the worde of trueth Philan. In what place there Theo. Make not your selfe so great a stranger in the Scriptures as if you knew not the place Phi. You meane the 14. Chapter of the first epistle which S Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth Theo. I doe what say you to it Phi. Mary this we say The reader may take a tast in this one point of your deceitfull dealing abusing the simplicitie of the popular by peruerse application of Gods holy word vpon some smale similitude equiuocatioÌ„ of certaine termes against the approued godly vse and trueth of the vniuersall Church for the seruice in the Latine or Greeke tongue which you ignorantly or rather wilfully pretend to be against this discourse of S. Paul touching strange tongues Theo. And hee that marketh your shifting and facing in this one point shall need no farther tast of your dealing Phi. If you like not that which we say refel it Theo. Can your selues tell what you say Phi. You shall well find that when we come to the matter Theo. First then heare what the Apostle saith and after you shal haue leaue to say what you will Instructing the Church of Corinth thus he saith And now brethren if I come to you speaking with strange tongues what shall I profite you If a truÌ„pet giue an vncertaine sound who wil prepare himself to the battel So likewise you by the tongue except you vtter words of easie vnderstanding how shal it be knoweÌ„ what is spoken For you shal speake in the aire There are for example so many kindes of tongues in the worlde and none of them is without sound Except I know the power and signification of the speach I shall be to him that speaketh barbarous and he that speaketh shall be barbarous to me Wherefore let him that speaketh a strange tongue pray thâ—t he may interpret For if I pray in a tongue not vnderstood my spirite praieth but mine vnderstanding is without fruit What is it then I wil pray with the
be whether euerie ladde or lasse prentise and ploughman exactly vnderstand euery word that is written but whether they edifie the church of Christ or no that is whether they haue in them many thinges fruitfull to be knowen and easie to bee learned if the hearers will be diligent and delight in the law of God as they ought are bound to doe And in this case masters you be not only snappish but very saucy with God himself that wil not suffer him to speak in his Church by the mouthes of his Prophetes and Apostles if you finde any sot or simâ—le idiote in the company that happily vnderstandeth not euery word which the holy Ghost vttereth Were you Surgions of the body and had some in cure that could not see with one eye to remedy that imperfection would you put out both and make them starke blind Phi. A wise similitude Theo. As wise as your illation against our diuine seruice For where some be so dull and ignorant that they conceiue not diuerse thinges in the Psalmes Lessons and prayers to helpe that you would take from them the rest which they doe vnderstand and so fill their eares with the strangenesse of an vnknowen tongue that their hearts perceiue iust asmuch of your prayers as blind men â—o of colours And see you not that your assertion strangleth it selfe and clearly conuinceth the vnfruitfulnesse of your latine prayers For if the people bee so simple that they vnderstande not the sense of many thinges in their mother tongue how many thinke you among them vnderstand the same or any thing else in the latine tongue If the Scriptures must be inioyned silence in the Church because they speake some thinges which the ruder sort can not easily attain what place can be left for your latine Masse Mattines and seruice of which the people vnderstand not one word and the knowledge of so much as one sentence thereof before they can get they must be not only Diuines which you say they are not but good Grammarians which in their education is not possible What else is this but to put out both their eyes where before they vnderstood many things that were both fruitfull and needefull for them so to mure vp their eares and choke vp their harts with a barbarous sound of vnknowen speech that neither the simpler nor wiser sort of them perceiued any line or letter of your seruice Phi. Call you the latine tongue barbarous Theo. Not in it selfe but in respect of the hearer which is not acquainted with it And so S. Paul calleth any language that is not vnderstood barbarous to him that vnderstandeth it not If I know not the power or signification of the speech I shall bee barbarous to him that speaketh and hee that speaketh shall be barbarous to me that vnderstand him not Phi. You are deceiued There is here no worde written or ment of any other tongues but such as men spake in the primatiue Church by miracle Theo. Did not the twelue Apostles that were Hebrewes borne speake Greeke and Latine by the miraculous gift of the holy Ghost descending on them in the likenes of clouen and firie tongues as it is specified in the second of the Actes Phi. I thinke they did because the Romanes are there named amongest those that hearde euery man their owne language at the Apostles mouthes Mary though the Hebrew Greeke and Latine might bee giuen by miracle and without study it being knowen to the Iewes Romanes or Greekes in euery place they be not counted among the differences of barbarous and straunge tongues here spoken of Theo. S. Paul doth not here like a Rhetorician as you would haue him distinguish the tongues which bee most eloquent and oratoricall in themselues that was farre from the Apostles minde or purpose but onely sheweth that euery tongue not vnderstood bee it Hebrew Greeke Latine Persike Arabike or what language you list seemeth not without iust cause to bee barbarous to him that knoweth not the force and signification of the speech And so he limiteth the word barbarous when hee saith If I knowe not the power of the voice I shall bee barbarous to him that speaketh and hee likewise to mee Omnis sermo qui non intelligitur barbarus iudicatur Euery tongue that is not vnderstood is deemed saith Hierom to be barbarous And Chrysostom He shal be barbarous to me and I to him Non vtique ob naturam vocis sed ob imperitiam not by the nature of the toung but by the vnskilfulnes of the hearer Non enim barbarus inquit ero sed loquenti barbarus Et rursus non qui loquitur barbarus est inquits sed mihi barbarous For S. Paul saith not I shal simplie be a barbarian but barbarous to him that speaketh And againe hee that speaketh shall not be absolutely a barbarian but barbarous vnto me saith the Apostle Phi. This we say was not ment of any of the three learned toungs namely not of the Latine Greeke nor Hebrew The. That is one of your oracles in your Rhemish obseruatioÌ„s but we would heare your reasons not your fansies why the Latine toung if it be not vnderstood may not bee counted barbarous to the hearer Phi. Know you that nothing in this chapter is ment of those toungs which were the common languages of the world or of the faithfull vnderstood of the learned and ciuill people in euery great citie and in which the scriptures of the old and new Testament were written Theo. This is pride to affirme what you will your selues â— it is no reason to confirme that which is now in question betwixt vs And yet that which you affirme is either not true or not much to the matter For first in latine no Scriptures were written but the Apostle writing to the Romans wrate in the Greek toung not in latine which argueth that the laâ—ine toung was nothing so much esteemed or so generally dispersed as the Greeke Next that the learned ciuile people in euery great city had the knowledge of the Hebrew Greeke latine is an other of your Iesuitical truthes auouched by no man but by your selues no way possible to be proued but by your magistrall surmises The Hebrew was hard neglected of all men sauing of the Iewes whose peculiar tongue it was the greater cities despising as well the Nation as their language til Christ was ascended between that the preaching of the Gospel in the greater cities the people though they were ciuil had neither time capacity nor meanes to learne a newe tongue and so difficult a tongue both to pronounce and vnderstand as the Hebrew is The Greeke tongue was in high price and farther spred before the birth of our Sauiour not only by reason of the Monarchie which was amongest the Grecians before it came to the Romanes but specially for that all liberall studies artes
one must keepe silence in the church and let them speake that may profite the hearers Idlely is that spoken which is not vnderstoode saith Cassiodorus Non solum cantantes sed etiam intelligentes Psallere debemus Nemo enim Sapienter quicquam facit quod non intelligit We ought to sing the psalms not only with tune of voice but also with vnderstanding of heart For no man doth any thing wifely which he vnderstandeth not The Bishops of Fraunce and Germanie assembled in Councel at Aquisgraine 816 yeres after Christ vnder Ludouike the Godly confesse the wordes of S. Paul bind vs to vnderstand the Psalmes which we sing in the Church Those that sing to the Lorde in his Church ought to haue their vnderstanding goe with their voice that the words of the Apostle may be verified I will sing with the spirit but I will also sing with vnderstanding And Let such be appointed in the Church to read sing that with the sweetnes of their reading and singing can affect the learned and instruct the vnlearned and let them seeke rather the edification of the people than the popular and vaine ostentation of their voices These Catholike fathers affirme the people ought to vnderstand the psalms and praiers of the church you say they need not Betweene these two doctrines there is asmuch difference as betweene daylight and darknes and yet you will be Catholiks whosoeuer say nay yea God himselfe commaundeth that neither exhortation nor supplication be made in the church but such as may edifie the hearers and bee vnderstood of the people you both doe and teach the contrary and yet you would be christians Phi. The simple sort can not vnderstand all Psalmes nor scarce the learned no though they be translated or read in knowen tongues men must not cease to vse them for all that when they are knowen to containe Gods holy praises Theo. Are you hired to betray your own follie or is the force of trueth so great that minding to conuince vs you confute your selues The simple vnderstand not all Psalmes nor scarce the learned wee thinke you speake right yet must not men cease to vse theÌ„ since they containe the prayses of God as true as the Gospell but now Sirs if the learned must vse them wheÌ„ they scarce vnderstand them why may not the simple heare them though they conceiue not al the mysteries of them Phi. As good not heare them as not vnderstand them Theo. All parts of the Psalmes they doe not vnderstand yet some they doe Why then doe you barre them from all since you dare not â—uouch them to bee ignorant of all Againe by continuall hearing them read alleaged and expounded in the Church they that are willing may easily increase their knowledge why then doe you cut the people not onely from that they knowe but also from that they might knowe from the meanes whereby to learne which is the high way to keepe them in ignorance the mother of all errors Phi. They will learne but litle God knoweth Theo. Graunt they would learne nothing yet are you bound to follow that meanes which God hath left to instruct them if their dulnes and peruersenes of heart be such that they will not learne the fault is theirs not yours their blood shal be on their own heads you are discharged where nowe by taking the comfort and instruction of their prayers from them you force them to neglect al as neuer likely to come by the knowledge of any one word and confirme them in their blindnes to your owne destruction and their imminent daunger if God bee not the more graâ—ious to them Phi. Prayers are not made to teache or increase knowledge but their speciall vse is to offer our heartes desires and wants to God and this euery catholike doeth for his condition whether hee vnderstande the woordes of his prayers or no. Theoph. Who tolde you that praiers are not made to teach or increase our knowledge The Psalmes of Dauid what are they but prayers and prayses offered vnto God and yet what Christian was euer so voyde of sense as to say they doe not teach nor increase knowledge or that they were not left vs to this ende and purpose that they shoulde teach and instruct vs in thinges pertaining to our saluation The prayers of the Godly throughout the scriptures though they were vttered in their wants and necessities yet were they written for our instruction And if you were not as destitute of grace as you be of truth you woulde soone perceiue that religious and Godly prayers doe mightily teach both learned vnlearned their dueties to God and his mercies to them Phi. In our prayers wee speake to God and not to men and that leadeth vs to â—ay they were not made to teach or increase knowledge Theo. The end of prayer in him that maketh it is to aske at Gods handes that he lacketh and to render thankes vnto God for that hee hath receiued but that the publike prayers of the Church do not first teach vs howe to pray and next instruct vs in many and most points of truth what to beleeue and confesse vnto God were meeter for Turkes and Infidels to defend than for such as you would seeme to be I meane both learned and Christian men Howbeit the pitch of our question is this whether they may be called prayers which wee make with our mouthes and not with our heartes and if they may not whether our heartes can pray without vnderstanding These be the matters that here we striue for and of these the first is prooued by the whole course of the Scriptures the seconde as well by the nature of man as by the word of God That God reiecteth the mouth without the heart as hypocrisie and no pietie our Sauiour telleth you when he saith O hypocrites Esay prophesied well of you in saying this people draweth neere to me with their mouth and honoureth me with the lippes but their heart is farre from me That our heart ioyneth not with our mouth when our vnderstanding wanteth is euident not onely by the scriptures which take the heart of man for his vnderstanding but by the education of our nature Dauid resembling those meÌ„ that haue not vnderstanding what they say or doe to the horse and Mule and â—usten allowing them when they pray they knowe not what no better place than among parrets and pies which is no place for men much lesse for those that would seeme to serue and honour God And what can be plainer than that vnderstanding is the proper action and first motion of mans heart which wanting in any thing that he doeth or sayeth his heart is also wanting since not an heart but an vnderstanding heart doeth make the difference betwixt man and beast Philand That is if they vnderstande not their owne woordes when they pray but they may bee ignorant of the
neither denying auoyding defeating nor answering What if not one of these fathers whose works you cite as thick as hops euer spake or heard of your external and real sacrificing the sonne of God afresh for the sinnes of the worlde but they vsing the wordes Sacrifice and oblation to an other purpose you force a priuate and peculiar sense of yours vpon their speaches against their meanings Phi. This is euer your wont when the woordes bee so plaine that you can not deny them to flie to the meaning Theo. In deede this hath beene not the least of Satans sleights in conueying your Religion from steppe to step point by point to keepe the speach and chaunge the sense of the learned and auncient fathers that what with the phrases which were theirs and the forgeries which were not theirs and yet caried their names hee might make the way for Antichrist to set vp his visible Monarchie of error and hypocrisie Phi. This is the way to rid your selues of all obiections Theoph. And the other is the way to drowne your selues in the deapth of all corruption but so long as wee holde their fayth and doctrine which were the lights and lampes of Christes church we can spare you their phrases here and there skattered in their writings you no whit the neerer the trueth of their beliefe Phi. You hold not their fayth in this or any other point of your Religion Theo. The greatest boasters bee not alwaies the greatest conquerours Let it therefore first appeare what they teache touching the Sacrifice of the Lords table and what wee admit and then it will soone bee seene which of vs twaine hath departed from them The fathers with one consent call not your priuate Masse that they neuer knew but the Lordes Supper a Sacrifice which wee both willingly graunt and openly teach so their text not your gloze may preuayle For there besides the sacrifice of praier and thankesgiuing which we must then offer to God for our redemption other his graces bestowed on vs in Christ his sonne besides the dedication of our soules and bodies to be a reasonable quicke and holy sacrifice to serue and please him besides the contribution and almes then giuen in the primatiue Church for the reliefe of the poore and other good vses a Sacrifice no doubt very acceptable to God I say besides these three sundry sortes of offerings incident to the Lordes table the very Supper itselfe is a publike memorial of that great dreadful sacrifice I meane of the death bloodshedding of our sauiour and a most assured application of the merites of his passion for the remission of our sinnes not to the gazers on or standers by but to those that with faith and repentance come to the due receiuing of those mysteries The visible sacrifice of bread and wyne representing the Lords death S. Austen enforceth in these words Hold most firmly neither doubt of this in any case that the only begotten sonne of God taking our flesh offered himselfe a sweet smelling sacrifice to god to whom with the father the holy ghost the Patriarks Prophets Priests vnder the old law sacrificed brute beasts to whoÌ„ now in the time of the new Testament with the same father holy spirite the holy Catholike Church throughout the world doth not cease to ofâ—er the sacrifice of breade and wine in faith charitie In those carnal Sacrifices there was a figuration of the flesh of Christ which he should offer bloud which he should shed for the remissioÌ„ of our sins In this sacrifice there is a thankesgiuing remembrance of the flesh which he hath offered and bloud which the same god hath shed for vs. With him agreeth Ireneus Christ willing his Disciples to offer vnto God the first fruites of his creatures not that god needed them but lest they should be found vnfruiteful or vnthankful toke the creature of bread and gaue thanks saying this is my body And likewise he confessed the cup which is a creature amongst vs to be his bloud teaching the new oblation of the new Testament which the Church receiuing from the Apostles offereth to God throughout the world We must theÌ„ offer to god in al things yeeld thanks to god the maker with a pure mind vnfaigned faith stedfast hope and feruent loue offering the first fruits of his Creatures and this oblation the Church only sacrificeth in purity to the creator offering to God of his creatures with thanksgiuing And this we offer to him not as if he stoode in neede of these presents but rendring him thanks for these his gifts and sanctifieng the creature This oblation of bread wyne for a thankesgiuing to God a memoriall of his sonnes death was so confessed vndoubted a trueth in the church of Christ till your Schoolemen beganne to wrest both Scriptures and Fathers to serue their quiddities that not onely the Liturgies vnder the names of Clemens Basil and Chrysostome do mention it We offer to thee our king and God this bread this cup according to thy sonnes institutioÌ„ tua ex tuis offerimus tibi domine we offer thee O Lord these thy gifts of thine own creatures Which sense Irineus vrgeth against valentine but also the very Missals vsed in your own Churches at this day do confirme the same These be the woordes of your own Offertorie Receiue holy Father God euerlasting this vndefiled host which I thine vnworthy seruant offer to thee my king and true God for my sinnes negligences and offences innumerable for al standers by yea for all faithful christians as wel liuing as departed this life that it may helpe me theÌ„ to attaine eternal life We offer to thee O Lord this cup of saluation intreating thy goodnes that it may be taken vp into thy sight as a sweet smell for the sauing of vs the whole world Receiue blessed Trinitie this oblatioÌ„ which we offer to thee in remeÌ„brance of the passion resurrection asceÌ„tion of Christ Iesus our Lord. We humbly beseech thee most merciful father through Iesus Christ thy son our Lord that thou accept blesse these gifts these preseÌ„ts these holy vndefiled sacrifices which we offer to thee first for thy Church holy and catholike c. For al true belieuers c. For al here present c. For the redemption of their soules and hope of saluation Certainely you speake these words long before you repeate Christs institution your Masse-booke doth apparently prooue that which I report if I mistake the secretes of your masse let the shame bee mine What then offer you in this place Christ or the creatures of bread wine By your own doctrine Christ is not present neither any change made til these wordes This is my body this is my blood be pronounced ergo before consecration the creatures of bread wyne keepe their
my way Phi. Al these fathers affirme the bread to be a signe figure of Christs body This we grant and thereto adde that it is both a figure and the trueth it selfe You may be gone you haue your errand Did I not tell you I would soone dispatch you Theo. You be very pleasureable whatsoeuer the matter be but had you no better skill to dispatch men of their liues than you haue to defeate vs of ouâ— authorities many a thowsand should now liue that you haue slaine Philan. You would runne to by-quarrels but I must hold you to the stake Theo. In deede that was alwayes the surest answere that you gaue vs. The rest was nothing no more is this For first it is apparently false that in Sacraments the signe the truth may be all one thing Next if that might be yet doth it not disappoint any one of these testimonies For they do not only witnes that the bread is a sign of christs bodie but also that christes wordes were figuratiue and that in deliuering the mysteries he called the bread his body by way of signification similitude representation after the maner of Sacramentes in a signe not according to the letter but in a spirituall and mysticall vnderstanding and if you respect the precise speech improperly and figuratiuely And though the signe might happily be one thing with the truth it self as you affirm wtout al truth yet may not a figuratiue speech be properly takeÌ„ nor the letter vrged against the spirituall meaning least that which was spoken to quicken the inward man subuert the faith and indanger the soul which in mistaking a figure of speech must needs insue as S. Augustine sheweth In principio cauendum est ne siguratam locutionem ad literam accipias Ad hoc enim pertinet quod ait Apostolus litera occidit spiritus autem viuificat Cum enim figurate dictum sic accipitur tanquam proprie dictum sit carnaliter sapitur Neque vllamors animae congruentius appellatur The first thing that you must beware is this that you take not a figuratiue speech according to the letter To that belongeth the Apostles admonition the letter killeth the spirite quickneth For when wee take that which is figuratiuely spoken as if it were properly spoken it is a carnall sense Neither is there any thing more rightly called the death of the soule In vaine then doe you thinke to shift off the matter with this foolish conceite that one and the same thing may be both a trueth and a figure For were that so yet can not a figuratiue speech bee literally taken without killing the soule and the Fathers which I produced affirme the minde and speech of our Sauiour in calling the bread his body was spirituall figuratiue and mysticall by way of signification such as is vsed in Sacramentes not literall nor carnall according to the strict sâ—und and order of the wordes Marie now your answere besides that it is altogether idle is vtterly false For in this sacrament as in al others there is great difference betwixt the signes and the things theÌ„selues and the distinct properties of ech are so sensible that if your wits be not laid vp for holy daies you can not but perceiue theÌ„ The signes are visible the things inuisible the signes are earthly the things heaueÌ„ly the signes corruptible the thinges immortall the signes corporall the thinges spirituall The signes are one thing the trueth is not the same but an other thing and euen by plaine Arythmetike they be two things and not one The Eucharist as Ireneus teacheth Consisteth of two things an earthly an heauenly This is it that wee say this is it that we seeke by all meanes saith Austen to approue to wit that the sacrifice of the church is made of two and consisteth of two thinges sacramento re sacramenti of the sacred signe and the thing it selfe For sacramentes are signa rerum aliud existentia aliud significantia signes of truthes being one thing in themselues and signifieng an other It were no figure saith Chrysostome if all thinges incident to the truth were to be found in it much lesse if it were the truth it selfe Sacraments haue a certaine similitude but no identitie with the thinges whose signes they be If therefore To take the signes for the thinges bee a miserable seruitude of the soule as Austen noteth what is it to affirme the signes to be the things themselues but a wilfull blindnesse of heart choosing rather to rush into any brake with daunger both of credit and conscience than to acknowledge the truth once disdayned and refused Phi. I haue yet an other answere in stoare Theo. If that be no better than this your stoare is little worth Phi. The most part of the Fathers which you bring speake not of Christes wordes when hee did institute the Sacrament but declare his meaning in the sixth of Sainct Iohns Gospell when the Capernites stumbled at his doctrine Theo. You may keepe this still in stoare for the goodnes of it Tertullian Austen Cyprian Ambrose Hierom Chrysostom Theodorete Prosper Bede Bertram Druthmarus and your own law speake directly of the sacrament and so doth Origen when he calleth the bread on the Lords table the typicall and figuratiue body onely that place of his mentioneth the sixt of Iohn where he saith If you take this saying according to the letter this letter killeth Phi. Mary Sir that place is the chiefest how closely you could conuey it in amongest the rest to make men beleeue he spake that of the sacrament which is nothing so Theo. Why doth not the 6. of S. Iohn foretel and declare the same kinde of eating Christs flesh and drinking his bloode which was after perfourmed by Christ at his last supper wheÌ„ he said This is my body this is my blood Phi. Doth it say you Theo. I do not say Christ speaketh in the sixth of Iohn of the materiall elementes of bread and wine which were then first ordained to bee pledges of his inuisible graces when the Supper was first instituted and therefore not spoken of before that time but this is it which I affirme and in this the learned and auncient Fathers agree with mee that where this mystery consisteth of two partes an earthlie matter and an heauenly vertue the sixth of Sainct Iohn treateth not of the signes but of the thinges them-selues not of the figures representing but of the trueth represented not of that which is corporally proposed but of that which is Ghostly receiued in the Lordes supper which is the better and diuiner part of this Sacrament and that the Disciples there learned in what sort themselues and all the faithfull after them should eate the Lords flesh and drinke the Lords blood at his table to be thereby quickned norished and incorporated with him as members of his mysticall body So that if any
forme of a seruaunt Doubtlesse the perfection of mans nature The forme of a seruaunt is out of question the nature of a seruaunt sayeth Chrysostome Therefore Augustine him-selfe addeth this reason why Christ must not bee thought to bee euerie where present ne veritatem corporis auferamus Least wee take from him the trueth of his bodie concluding that Christ is euerie where per id quod Deus est by that nature which is God in coelo autem per id quod homo in heauen by that nature which is man Where these wordes that which is man interprete what he meane by the former speech wheÌ„ hee saide according to this forme Christ is not euerie where present But let the worde bee taken in your sense yet doth it fully confirme our assertion For humane forme and shape is inseparably ioyned to the substaunce of Christes bodie and Christes humane forme by your confession can not bee present in many places at one time ergo neither his humane substance These â—waine shape and substaunce can not bee seuered hee is no man that hath not the shape of man Now choose whether that bodie which as you say your hosts containe shall keepe the forme and shape of man or loose the nature and substaunce of Christ. For the Lord Iesus as man must haue not onely the substaunce but also the shape of a man So shall hee come as you haue seene him go to heauen that is saith Austen in the very same shape and substance of his flesh Our vile bodie saith Paul shall he change to bee fashioned like to his glorious bodie but our bodies shall then haue distinction of partes proportion of shape circumscription of place ergo the glorified body of Christ hath and must haue these very proprieties of our nature So that if his bodily shape can be but in one place his bodily substance can be in no moe Therefore saith Fulgentius Quod siverum est corpus Christi loco potest vtique contineri if Christ haue a true bodie that no doubt may be concluded in a place And Theodoret Illud enim corpus habet priorem formam figuram circumscriptionem vt semel dicam corporis substantiam that bodie which Christ caried to heauen with him hath the same forme figure circumscription at one word the same substance of a bodie which it had before Phi. S. Chrysostome and S. Ambrose affirme the contrary Theo. What affirme they Phi. That one and the some bodie of Christ is euerie where present Their words are Quoniâ—m multis in locis offertur multi Christi sunt â—equaquaÌ„ sed vnus vbique est Christus hic plenus existens illic plenus vnum corpus Because we offer in many places are there many Christs no by no meanes but one Christ is euery where here whole and there whole one body And S. Chrysostom exceedingly wondring at so miraculous a presence crieth out O the strangenes of the thing O the goodnes of our God! He that sitteth aboue with his Father in heauen at the verie moment of time is handled with the fingers of all men Theo. Make you Chrysostom and Ambrose the disciples of Eutyches Phi. Make you no worse reckoning of them than I do and they shall haue their due honor Theo. I thinke them to be farre from Eutyches errour Phi. And so doe I. The. Why then alleadge you their words for that erronious position which was condemned in Eutyches Phi. I alleadge them for the reall presence of Christ in the Sacrament Theo. Your reall presence and vbiquitie if you will haue Christs humane substance dispersed in many places without shape or circumscription are the verie bowels and inwardes of Eutyches heresie Phi. No Sir S. Chrysostom and S. Ambrose were no heretikes Theo. In deede they were not and therefore you doe them the more wrong to wrest their speeches to make for his madnes Philand We produce them to confirme a trueth Theophil The very same trueth that the church of Christ abhorred in Eutyches Phi. What did the church abhorre Theo. Euen this which you would proue by the words of Ambrose Chrysostom â—hat the flesh of Christ after his ascension was not locall nor circumscribed within any certaine place Phi. We grant the manhood of Christ in heauen is locall and circumscribed with place that setteth vs free from Eutyches errour Theo. It doeth if you constantly keepe that point of faith and contradict it not by an other deuise Phi. We verilie beleeue and publikely professe that Christes humane nature in heauen hath quantity shape distinction of parts circumscription and all other conditions of a naturall and true body what would you more Theo. We would no more but if you fall from that are you not within the compasse of Eutyches furie Phi. We fal not from it The. Then how can Christs body in the sacrament waÌ„t all these which christiaÌ„ religion affirmeth to bee permanent perpetual in the maÌ„hood of Christ or why would you collect out of Amb. or Chry. against the very principles of faith that Christes humane fleshe is vncircumscribed and euerie where diffused Philand Wee meane that of Christes fleshe in the Sacrament not of his manhood in heauen Theophil Bee there many Christes Philand Who sayth there are you heard that euen now reproued by S. Chrysostom and S. Ambrose as a wicked absurditie to say that there were many Christes And therefore they concluded there was but one Christ euerie where Theo. That one Christ hath hee many naturall and substantiall bodies Philand Why aske you those questions of vs we bee not infected with any such frensie Theo. You may the sooner answere Hath Christ two reall and naturall bodies the one in heauen the other in the Sacrament Phi. No this is all one with that Theo. That by the rules of your creede is locall and circumscribed if this bee the same howe can this bee without quantitie shape and circumscription Phi. Beleeue you not Christ when hee sayde this is my bodie Theop. Yeas veryly but you so expound his words that you subuert the whole frame of his truth and our common faith with your reall and locall presence Phi. Do we subuert the common faith with our opinion Theo. Our Christian faith is this Wee must beleeue sayeth Augustine the Sonne of God according to the substance of his Deitie to be inuisible incorporall and vncircumscribed but according to his humane nature to be visible corporall and locall You heard Vigilius the martyr say For so much as the word is euery where and the fleshe of Christ not euery where it is cleare that one and the same Christ is of two natures eueriwhere according to the nature of his Diuinity and contained in a place according to the nature of his humanitie and this sayeth hee is the catholike fayth confession which the Apostles deliuered the Martyrs confirmed
himself is neither of a diuine substance only nor of an humane only There is then as wel in the high Priest as in the sacrifice an heauenly substance there is also an earthly substanceâ— The earthly substance in theÌ„ both is that which may corporally locally be seen The heauenly in them both is the inuisile word which in the beginning was God with God The Church of England euen to the conquest held the same Doctrine and taught it to the people of this Land in their publike homilies which are yet to be seene of good record in the Saxon tongue The sermon then read on Easter day throughout their Churches is a manifest declaration of that which I say where amongst others these words are occurrent The holy font water that is called the welspring of life is like in shape to other waters and is subiect to corruption but the holy Ghosts might commeth to the corruptible water through the Priests blessing and it can after wash the bodie and soul from all sinne through Ghostly might Beholde now we see two things in this one creature After true nature that water is corruptible water and after Ghostly mystery hath hallowing might So also if we behold that holie housell after bodily vnderstanding then see we that it is a creature corruptible mutable if we acknowledge therein ghostly might theÌ„ vnderstaÌ„d we that life is therein and that it giueth immortalitie to them that eate it with beliefe Much is betwixt the inuisible might of the holy housel the visible shape of his proper nature It is naturally corruptible bread and corruptible wine and is by might of Gods word truly Christes bodie and his bloud not so notwithstanding bodily but Ghostly Much is betwixt the bodie Christ suffered in and the body that is hallowed to housell The body truely that Christ suffered in was borne of the flesh of Mary with bloud with bone with skinne and with sinewes in humane limmes with a reasonable soul liuing and his Ghostly body which wee call the housell is gathered of many cornes without bloud and bone without limme without soul. And therefore nothing is to be vnderstood therein bodily but al is Ghostly to be vnderstood Phi. What care we for your Saxon recordes Theo. Lesse care we for your Romish Monckish recordes so lately and grossely forged as we haue proued yet this to your inward grief you may now see shal an other day to your vtter confusion feele that your nouelties touching the Sacrament were neuer hard of in the Church of England nor in the Church of Christ til Lancfrancus Anselmus other Italians a thowsand yeres after christ came in with their AntichristiaÌ„ deuises and inuentions expounding Species and forma panis for the qualities accidents of bread without any subiect or substance which once taking place you fel amaine both to sacrilegious sophismes against trueth and rebellious practises against Princes ceased not til you brought them to their hight in your late Laterane Councell vnder Innocentius the third 1215 yeares after Christ. This is your Catholicisme that you so much vaunt of which the Christian world was vtterly ignorant of for almost a thousand yeares and to the which you would now reduce the simple with a shew of holines pretending greate grauitie and admirable antiquitie with bolde faces and eger speaches though you be void of both if you were well examined Phi. Were the doctrine of elder ages in some doubt which we knowe to be fully for vs yet you confesse these last fiue hundreth yeares are cleare on our side Theo. The miter and Scepter were yours the mysterie of iniquiiie working as was foretold and infecting the West Church with hypocrisie and heresie as fast as the Turke oppressed the East with rage tyrannie Yet in euerie of these last most corrupted ages God raised a number of innocent and simple men with the confession of their mouthes and expence of their liues to witnesse his trueth against the pride and fury of their aduersaries whome your holie father hanged burned and otherwise murdered for repining at his proceedings that whome with honour and ease he could not allure at lest he might quaile with terror and torment Phi. Shoulde wee leaue the fellowship of holie Popes famous Prelates mighty Princes learned and Religious Moncks and Friers yea Saints and ioyne our selues to a fewe condemned and infamous heretikes as you doe Theo. That which is pretious and admirable before men may be odious detestable before God The dignities of men cannot deface the truth of Christ the higher their states the greater their falles if they did oppose themselues against the highest Phi. You say they did Theo. I doe not but this I say that if the respect of their externall and temporall glorie be the ground of your conscience you haue a wicked affection as well as Religion To follow men against God is to magnifie them afore God Phi. You condemne them for cast-awaies Theo. I am not their iudge He that made them might be mercifull to them amiddest the defects and dangers of those daies as he hath been to some in all ages and places yet that is no safetie for you to defend their open errors and wilfully to continue their wickednes Phi. Were not our fathers religious and holy men Theo. Iustifie not your fathers against God lest their mouthes condemne you for a pernicious ofsprng God will be glorified when he iudgeth say you and your fattherâ— what you can to the contrary Reprooue not the sharpnes of his iustice which he neuer sheweth but for great and vrgent cause submit your selues rather and acknowledge it is his vndeserued and yet not vnwoonted mercie that you be not consumed as your fathers were before you but haue yet time and warning to repâ—nt Phi. And are you such Saints that you â—eede no repentance Theo. Wee desire to liue no longer than we confâ—sse before heauen and earth that as God hath beene righteous in reuenging the sinnes and iniquities of our fathers by taking his trueth from them and leauing them to the power of darkenes and kingdome of Antichrist so he might most iustly for our vngodlines vnthankfulnes haue wrapped vs in the same confusion and destruction saue that of his infinite and vnspeakeable mercy he woulde haue his Gospell preached afresh for a witnes to all Nations before he come to iudgement to make all men inexcusable that haue either not beleeued or not obeyed the truth And this causeth vs not onely with all that is within vs to giue glorie to his name for so great a blessing but to beseech him that though we be lighted on the ends of the world when charitie waxeth cold and faith is skant found on the face of the earth we may not be caried away with the error of the wicked to perdition especially not to followe the way of Cain that
carnis t August in Euang Iohan. tract 50. What means we haue to take hold of Christ now absent in heauen u Ibidem How Christ is prâ—sent with vs and howe he is absent from vs. * There not here x Cyril in Ioan. lib. 6. cap. 14. Christ absent in flesh a Lib. 9. cap. 21. b Lib. 9. cap. 22. c Lib. 11. cap. 3. d Lib. 11. ca. 21. e Lib. 11. ca. 22. f Orig. tract in Matth. 33. His bodie absent from vs. His manhood is neither in all places nor at all times with vs. g Ambr. li. 10. super â—ucae cap. 24. de hora Dominicae resurrectionis christ is not to besought neither on earth nor in earth h Gregor in Euang homil 2â— i Ibidem homil 30. k Ibidem hom 29. The fathers themselues teach both partes of this consequentâ— Christ is in heauen ergo not in earth l August epist. 57. ad Dardanum That the substaunce of Christs bodie maie be in manie places at one time is a condemned heresie m August epist. ad Daâ—danum 57. * Nec aliunde quam inde * In eadem carnis forma atque substantia * If Christes manhood be in euerie place he looseth the truth of his bodie n In eadem epi. ad finem * In aliquâ— loco coeli o August in Iohan tract 30. He speaketh of the trueth of the gospel not of the truth of the bodie of Christ. * β Vno loco esse poâ—est p Vigilius contra Eutych lib. â— cap. 4. * That the flesh of Christ should be euery where was a sequâ—lâ— of Eutyches heresie * Christ maÌ„hood conâ—ained in a place * From this the Iesuits be vtterly fallen q Fulgent ad Thrasimundum Regem lib. 2. cap. 5. * Christs humane substance is not both in heauen earth at one time * If Christ be not locall he is no true man The body of Christ contained in one 〈◊〉 place not diffunded in manie * This without question is the Christian faith and not the Iesuits vbiquitie or multilocitie This is a bare shift of the Iesuits yet this is all the refuge they haue r Aug. epist. 57. s Vigil contra Eutych li. 4. cap. 4. t Fulgent lib. 2. cap. 5. ad Thrasimundum regeÌ„ u Ibidem Fourme is all one with truth and perfection a Ambros. lib. 7. epist. 47. b Leo epist 97. c Chryso in cap. 2. epist. ad Phil. sermâ— 6. d Aug. epist. 57. e Ibidem Per id quod homo is substaÌ„ce as well as shape Christ can haue no humane substance without humane shape f Aug. epist. 57. g Phili. cap. 3. h Fulgent ad Thrasimundâ—â— regâ—m lib. 2. cap. 5. i Theod. dial 2. It is no humane bodie that hath not shape as well as substance k Ambro. in 10. cap. ad Heb. Chrys. hom 17. in eadem epist. l Chrysost. de Sacerdotio li. 3. Chrysostome and Ambrose could not gainesay the rest and be Catholikes The Iesuites would drawe Chrysostome and Ambrose to be of Eutyches opinion These conditions of a true bodie the manhead of Christ maie haue wheresoeuer it be There is but one Christ that one Christ hath but one body which is not euery where m Aug. de essentia diuinitatis n Vigil contra Eutych lib. 4. cap. 4. The words of Ambrose and Chrysostome as the Iesuites conster them are against the verie grounds of our common faith How Chrysostome Ambrose must be vnderstood o Chrys. de Sacerdot lib. 3. Chrysostoms figuratiue vehement â—peaches much abused by the Iesuits p Ambros. lib. 10. in 24. Luc. q August epist. Iohan tract 1. Chrysostome himselfe excludeth the corporall vnderstanding of his words r Chryso de Sacerdot lib. 3. s Ibidem t Chrys. Ibidem The power of God must neuer be alleadged against his wil nor our faith which he hath commaunded vs to beleeue u Tertul. aduers Praxeam Gods omnipotencie a common refuge with heretikes When wee produce gods power for our fansies against his trueth wee make him a lyar and in subiection to our willes The Iesuits pretend god-power against the christian faith * Or if you do not see your selues condeÌ„ned in the great councel of ChalcedoÌ„ Act. 5. definitio 2. as heâ—eâ—iâ—s for not beleeuing it * A very witty excâ—ption Then you beleeue the Christian faith to be true euerie where sauing in the Sacrament and what is that but wilfullie and openlie to denie the faith where you list Whatsoeuer he can doe you bee heretikes in the meane time for contradicting the christian faith * Tertul. aduer Praeâ—eam The Iesuites incurre not onelie Impieties but impossibilities a August conâ—ra â—austum li. 20. cap. 11. b Cyril in Ioan. lib. 15. cap. 3. These fathers were not afraide to saie Christ coulde not be in manie places at one time The Iesuits whiles they would shunne Eutyches error runne headlong into contradictions yet stick in the same mire that Eutyches did c 2. Tim. 2. d Hebr. 6. e Aug. de ciuit Dei lib. 5. c. 10. f Ambr. lib. 6. epist. 37. g Ibidem What thingâ— are impossible to God and why Of contradictions one part is euer false and all falshood impossible to God A lie in worke is as bad as a lie in word as contrarie to the nature of God This is right Iesuitical skill to saie the bodie of Christ is and is not contained in a place * These bee worse than the Poets chimers The best gâ—ounds you haue for these thinges are dreames and miracles of your owne making * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * For none of these pointes haue the Iesuits so much as one auncient father * You be good at vndertaking but naught at perfourming It is enough for the Iesuâ—â—s to call themselues Catholiâ—es though they cannot shâ—w one writer for a thousand yeares that taught theâ—r transubstantiation * Which will say neuer a word for your purpose This is cited out of S. Austen by frier Walden tomo 2. de Sacramentis cap. 83 a diuine worke in D. Allens iudgement lib. 1. de Euch. sacâ— pa. 34â— This forgery with others was iudicially allowed by Pope Martin the fifth and his Cardinals in their Consistorie * This young Austen lacked not onely learning and trueth but Latine and witte * Had you not beene ashamed of your occupation you would haue printed iâ— The woordes did so plainly betray thâ—mselues that they haue since suppressed the booke for verâ—e shame Bede likewise forged by Walden * Citatura The. Walden tomo 2. vt supra cap. 82. * He neuer wrate anie such booke The credite of both these places lieth onely on frier Walden who