want unless they be of that Phanatick Party which is meer Faction and no Christian Charity at all Answ It seems by thy words thou once didst believe better of us then now thou dost it may be that was when in thy Mind thou wast more one with the Truth then now thou art but now thou art of a Prejudiced Spirit and Evil-minded against us or else thou mightest believe as well of us now as formerly for any Alteration that is in us from those Good Things we formerly were adicted unto according to that thy former Belief of us And whereas thou sayest That most of us are extreamly Covetous and Narrow-breasted without all Bowels of Pitty or Mercy towards those that want c. I require thee to prove what thou hast said of us herein or otherwise to acknowledge thy self to be a False Accuser and a Slanderer of us I doubt not but many who are not of us can witness thee to be a Lyar herein And for Phanatick Party which thou reckonest us of that thou mayest take home to thy self for thee and such as thou art may more truly be called Phanaticks then We. Again Whereas thou sayest That whereas many of them have been known to have been Persons of mean Fortunes at first are now Rich and Wealthy and none of them though very Poor before they turned Quakers now in a necessatous Condition being maintained as 't is very probable by their New Masters the Jesuits a very Rich and Opulent Society who make more Proselytes by the Length of their Purse-Strings then by the Strength of Argument or personated mimical Gestures Answ It may be it troubles thee that such of us who were formerly of mean Fortunes are now Rich and Wealthy and that none of us now are in a Necessatous Condition If God Almighty hath added to our Outward Substance so that many of us who before we owned that Holy and Blessed Truth possessed by those called Quakers which thee and many more do not though you profess the same Truth have more of Outward substance then before why shouldst thou be troubled at that so as to judge it is obtained by us by Extream Covetousness The Proverb is Ill-will will not speak well So thou being ill-minded towards us takest things the wrong way and wouldst insinuate thy evil suggestions into others that they might be like-minded with thee therein And if Care be taken by us that none that are truly of us are in a Necessatous Condition dost thou judge amiss of us therefore If thy Religion teacheth otherwise I desire not to be of it because it cannot be a good Religion so not according to the Apostle's Religion who said Do Good unto all but especially unto the Houshould of Faith And whereas thou say'st Being maintained as it is very probable being maintained by their new Masters the Jesuites c. I say if there be such a Society they may tell thee as well as we thou hadst not just Cause to say that that was every probable they being unknown to us and we to them And art not thee a Possessor of their Tythes and Peter's Pence Doth not that come in thy Purse that formerly came into the Jesuites And as for thy Words they converting us with their Purse we deny â—â—em and abhor their Practices for is not that thine and the Jesuites Practice who practise that which you call Converting for the Purse But have not you Priests Imprisoned and Plundered Us sufficiently to make us poor Again Whereas thou say'st As for their Humility and Lowliness 't is evident they shew no such Virtues in their Carriage towards their betters their Contempt of Gold Rings Silver Lace and Rich Attire is no Infallible Proof of their Humility Diogenes may be as Proud in his Tub as Alexander in his Pallace he may trample upon Plato's Pride with greater Pride as Haughty a Spirit may be hid under a Plain Country Russet as under the Richest Sables Answ What are those Carriages of ours towards any that do not shew Humility and Lowliness Surely those who are not one with us in Judgment yet being of a Moderate Unprejudiced Spirit perceiving that we are Conscientious in what we do though we cannot carry our selves towards them as they do one towards another in many things have a better Opinion of us then thou hast and God unto whom our Souls are subject knows that it is otherwise with us then thou judgest of us who will plead our Cause with thee who smitest at us without a Just Cause And I say Who cannot for Conscience sake wear Gold Rings and Silver Lace and Rich Attire as formerly they could have done do shew more of being guided by the Holy Infalliable Spirit of the Lord then such as practise those things and are better Followers of the Apostle who would have others to follow him as he followed Christ then such as do contrary herein which holy Apostle saith Let your Moderation be known unto all men for the Lord is at hand And the Truth if it be minded will lead to Moderation in these things And the Apostle Peter saith where he speaks of Women's Adorning themselves Whose Adorning let it not be the Outward Adorning of Plaiting the Hair and of Wearing of Gold or of putting on of Apparel but let it be the Hidden Man of the Heart in that which is not Corruptible even the Ornament of a Meek and Quiet Spirit which is in the Sight of God of great Price see â— Pet. 3. 3 4 c. Now Friend consider what Spirit thou art of who smitest at us for doing according to the Apostle's Exhortation herein And who walketh most according to the Truth We who are Conformable to God herein or Thou who seekest Occasion against us therefore What any People may do as to things which are good in themselves and ought to be done they doing them in Imitation only that they may be reckoned Humble and Lowly-minded and not in Obedience to God is one thing but what is done for the Lord's sake in true Obedience to him is another thing so there ought to be a Distinction made between such in things which the Blessed and Holy Truth leadeth them to do where it is kept to and such as do like things yet not so led thereunto And though things may be done by some by Imitation only which are good in themselves yet ought and may the same things be done by others by the Leadings of the Spirit of Truth and where it is so such things are rightly accounted the Fruits of the Spirit and such are reckoned by Christ as the Good Tree which brings forth Good Fruit so by what the Tree brings forth it may be known whether the Tree be good or evil so who do things by the Leadings of God's Spirit those things are the Fruits of that Good Spirit and are so owned by this Holy Spirit though not owned by it where the like things are done In Imitation only that
justified by Faith in Christ Jesus which the Work of Faith which works by Love is not denyed by the Apostle nor us if thou denyest that thy Faith is dead Further thou say'st that we say That a State of Perfection and Freedom from Sin is attainable in this Life Answ Do we err in holding that a State of Perfection and Freedom from Sin is attainable in this Life Did not God say to Abraham I am Almighty God walk before me and be thou perfect Gen. 17. 1. And did not Christ say in his Sermon in the Mount Be you therefore Perfect as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect And art thou of that Faith and Belief that God and Christ doth command us to do that which we cannot by his Help and Assistance do 'T is true we cannot keep the Commands of Christ of our selves but by his Assistance we are able to do the same else why did the Apostle say I can do all Things through Christ that strengthneth me And did not the Saints know a Freedom from Sin in this Life Friend I tell thee if thou say'st a Freedom from Sin is not attainable in this Life thou must deny the Scriptures of Truth and give the Apostle the Lye for doth not the Apostle say to the Romans But now being made free from Sin and become Servants to God ye have your Fruit unto Holiness and the End Everlasting Life Rom. 6. 22. And doth not the Apostle say concerning himself For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the Law of Sin and Death Therefore stop thy Mouth for Shame from speaking of those Things which thou ought'st not and thy Pen from so writing concerning us certainly God will judge thee for thy Lyes and Slanders against us Thou say'st That our Positions are contrary to the sacred Scriptures but by this thy Evil Work it appeareth that thou art contrary to the Scriptures and not we who hast manifested thy Ignorance of what the Scriptures say and hast appeared contrary to what thy self hast learned in thy young Dayes and since for ought that I know to the contrary hast caused others to learn viz. That when thou camest to Age thou wouldst according to what was promised and vowed in thy stead by thy God-fathers and God-mothers in thy Baptism so called forsake the Devil and all his Works And if thou hast not learned thus not caused any thus to learn I am sure that I and many more were caused thus to learn in our youthful Dayes I believe however thou ownest thy self a Member of that Church that teacheth thus to say though not to do and so thou may'st be a Sayer of the Word but not a Doer of it but now thou art neither Sayer nor Doer and so in that Estate can'st not be justified of God for as thou hast doubtless read in the Scriptures It is not the Sayers of the Word that are justified but the Doers of it Now he that forsakes the Devil and all his Works he must cease from all Sin and abstain from every Appearance of Evil for all Sin is of the Devil Again we say say'st thou That there is a Light in every Man sufficient to guide him to Salvation Answ Is it an Errorth us to hold seeing John saith speaking of Christ That is the true Light which lighteth every Man that cometh into the World And hath not God given his Son Christ Jesus for a Light to the Gentiles that he might be his Salvation unto the Ends of the Earth And doth not the Apostle say For God who commanded the Light to shine out of Darkness hath shined in our Hearts to give the Light of the Knowledge of the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ and see John 14. 26. 16. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13. Consider of these Scriptures and then tell us whether it be any Error to hold that there is a Light in every Man sufficient to guide him unto Salvation or to hold the contrary and so whether it is not thou that errst from Scripture and the true and right Way of the Lord and not we Again say'st thou We hold that the Scripture is not the Word of God or a standing Rule of Faith and Manners Answ We own the Scriptures to be what they speak of themselves according to Luke's Preface where he writes of the Gospel c. But the Word is God if John wrote the Truth which we believe he did as thou may'st see John 1. 1. And I hope thou wilt not presume to say to the contrary but we own the Scriptures that which Holy Men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost to be the Words of God and that which was the Saints Rule we own to be our Rule as the Scriptures testifie thereof see John 16. 13. c. and Tit. 2. 11 12. But thou manifests thy self to be contrary to the Rule both of Scripture and Spirit that does by thy Neighbours and Country-men as thou would'st not be done by Again thou say'st That we hold that there is no Resurrection of the Dead Answ We do own the Resurrection of the Dead according to the Scriptures as thou may'st see 1 Cor. 15. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 c. And further see Ver. 29. 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38. c. So I say we own the Resurrection of the Dead according to the Scriptures and if thou hold'st it otherwise it is thou that errest therein and not we Again thou say'st We hold there is no need of Ordinances as Baptism and the Lord's Supper Answ We own that Baptism that 's according to the Scriptures but not that which is contrary to them which is according to the Traditions and Inventions of Men and the Supper of the Lord we own according to the Scriptures though not such a Supper which some take before Dinner and call it the Lord's Supper So be humbled before the Lord and repent of the Wrong thou hast done us herein Again we hold say'st thou That 't is Vnlawful to take an Oath before a Magistrate upon any Account whatsoever Answ Is it an Error in us to keep the Commandment of Christ herein who saith Swear not at all and the Commandment of the Apostle who saith But above all Things my Brethren swear not see Mat. 5. 33 34 35 36 37. Jam. 5. 12. Friend was it not commanded by Christ and his Apostle that we should not swear at all no not by any Oath And what must we err for doing according to Christ's Commands herein Oh sad that one who taketh upon him to be a Minister of Christ should hold to the contrary and teach others so Friend repent of those Things and do so no more that these Words of Christ may not come to pass concerning thee viz. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments and shall teach Men so to do he shall
true Light which John bore Testâ—â—ony of Joh 1. 9. caling it a Juggle more Unconstant then that of the Moon a meer Phantasie a Diabolical Suggestion Darkness within them the very Blackness of Darkness within them thou wicked Blasphemer of God and false Accuser of his People dost thou think thy Greatness shall secure thee from the Just Hand of God when he shall render a Reward to all Men according to their Deeds And now by the Blasphemy wicked Insinuations horrible Lyes and abominable Slanders how hast thou manifested thy self guilty of that which thou hast charged falsly upon us viz. one that practises that which is contrary to the Law of Nature good Manners express Scripture the Usages of all sober and civil People in the World and therefore by thy own Judgment art so far from being a True Christian that thou art not worthy the Name of a sober Man How is the Wicked snared in the Work of his own Hands and fallen into the Pit he hath digged for others and the very Blackness of Darkness is thy Portion except thou repent speedily And T. G. hath other slighting and prophane Expressions of that blessed Light which we own and profess as groundless Fancy an Vnconstant and Vncertain Guide c. By all which T. G. manifests himself one of those Builders who have set at nought the Corner-stone and also his Ignorance of the Scriptures of Truth which testifie of the Light to be the Way to the Father that which gives the Knowledge of God that in which the Nations of them that are saved must walk and that People should believe in the Light that they may be Children of the Light and that they which follow it shall not abide in Darkness with much more touching the Excellency Certainty and Sufficiency of it what Cause have we to bless the Lord who hath delivered us from such blind Guides who thus err not knowing tâ—e Scriptures nor the Power of God Further Thou sa'yst in thy Firmianus You need not wonder if you shall seriously consider that they Flatter themselves that they are in a State of Perfection that they cannot sin are above Ordinances that cast off Fear and Restrain Prayer Job 15. 4. should fall into the Snare of the Devil c. Answ Here are many more Lyes which thou castest on us which thou must bear the Weight of thy self which thou hast learned of the Father of Lyes and not of God nor of Christ for no Lye is of the Truth as saith Christ the Truth And as for our Flattering of our selves that we are in a State of Perfection that is false For we do not Flatter our selves herein thou dost us great Wrong herein and thy self greater for in the End the Harm will be to thy self when thou must bear thy own Burden for the Wrong thou hast done us herein yet the Doctrine of Perfection we own and must not deny it for it was the Doctrine of Almighty God to Abraham and also Christ's Doctrine in his Sermon in the Mount as I said before and the Church of England which thou takest on thee to be a Member of teacheth not contrary hereunto in Words which teaches God-fathers and God-mothers so called to promise for Children in their Baptism That when they come to Age they shall forsake the Devil and all his Works But who art thou that doubtless dost sometimes preach against Sin and yet cryest against such as own the Doctrine of Perfection which as I said before was the Doctrine of Almighty God and of Christ Consider with thy self whose Servant thou art and whom thou followest herein Again Thou hast belyed us in saying we say we cannot sin for which of us didst thou ever hear say so Yet I say as the Apostle saith speaking of Christ he that abideth in him sinneth not Further whereas thou sayest of us We cast off all Fear and restrain Prayer that is false also for we are of the same Mind with the Holy Apostle which said Let us therefore fear lest a Promise being left us c. any of you come short c. as they did even such who fell short of the Rest that was promised them because of their Unbelief Hebr. 4. 1 c. And whereas thou sayest We Restrain Prayer How canst thou make this to appear Our Practice in Praying often and in making Supplication to God often proves thee to be a Lyar and a false Accuser of us herein and the Scripture thou bringest against us Job 15. 4 to prove us such serves not for thy Purpose against us herein I believe I know wherein it may be justly charged upon thy self but now I have omitted it but do say to thee Repent of the great Sin and Wickedness that thou hast committed and done against the Truth and the true Followers thereof and do so no more that the Lord may blot out thy Transgression And as for John Toldervee's Recantation of Quakerism p â—8 it was long since Confuted and afterwards Recanted of by Himself And whereas thou mentionest two Franciscans who did tell one Cowlishaw an Ironmonger in Bristol whose Oath thou say'st is to be seen upon the Register That within Eighteen Dayes Quakerism should be set up in Bristol c. That hath long since been Answered And as for William Prinn's Quakerism Vnmasked it was long since Answered and his Falshood Unmasked by John Audland and also by George Whitehead in his short Treatise entituled Truth Trumphing in a Suffering Time And whereas thou sayest in thy Dubitantius in the close of thy Dialogue against us I am fully satisfied concerning the Folly and Madness of this Phanaticism and from whence it sprang c. Answ I desire that when thou hast read this Answer to thy Dialogue against us thou mayest see thy Own Folly and Madness in doing what thou didst therein and be humbled before the Lord for thy great Sin against Him therein and Repent thereof resolving never to do the like again This I desire thou mayest do for thy Own Good and not abuse what is writ in answer to thee herein however if thou dost I know with whom my Reward will be and that is my Comfort even with him who is the Rewarder of all the Faithful From a Lover of Immortal Souls and of the whole Creation of God Edward Bourne Worcester the 21th of the 4th Moneth 1675. THE END pag. 90. of thy Book