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A70435 A letter of many ministers in old England requesting the judgement of their reverend brethren in New England concerning nine positions written Anno Dom. 1637 : together with their answer thereunto returned, anno 1639 : and the reply made unto the said answer and sent over unto them, anno 1640 / by Simeon Ash, and William Rathband. Ashe, Simeon, d. 1662.; Rathband, William, d. 1695. 1643 (1643) Wing L1573A; ESTC R11945 105,990 100

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Passeover in any societie in the place which God should chuse to put his Name there Exod. 12. 4. 47. Deut. 16. 1 2. So all baptised persons have true and intire right to the Lords Supper in everie true Church where God hath set his Name Thirdly there is not the same reason of every Church priviledge for one may have right to some who is not to meddle with others The members of one society may hear the Word joyne in Prayer and receive the Sacraments in another when they are not to meddle in the election and ordination of their teachers The Ministers of the Gospel may preach the Word and administer the Sacraments in another congregation and hereto he needs no other calling but that God offers an opportunitie there is much need of his help and he is intreated or hath leave from them in place or office but he is not to admit members into the societie or cast them out that be admitted And if the Pastor of one Church shall preach or administer the Sacraments in another contrary to the liking and approbation of the Society and Governours though the act be irregular it was never esteemed a nullitie but if he shall presume to excommunicate the members of another societie without the consent o● the Church and approbation of Pastors and Teachers under whose charge and jurisdiction they live it hath been judged a meer nullity Therefore the proposition is not so evident as to be taken without proofe that they have no power to admit a beleever into communion in any Church priviledge who have no power to excommunicate Fourthly that visible beleevers baptised into a true Church professing the true faith and walking in holy obedience and godly conversation that they and their seed should be judged such as are without in the Apostles sense because they be not externally joyned as set members to some particular congregation in Church-Covenant is affirmed not proved 1. It hath and may fall out many times through the ignorance rashnesse or pride of a prevailing faction in the Church that the true members of the Catholique Church and the best members of the orthodox visible flock or congregation of Christ may be no members of any distinct visible societie And shall their posteritie be esteemed Aliens and Strangers from the Covenant and debarred from the Sacraments because their parents are unjustly seperated from the inheritance of the Lord Surely as parents unjustly excommunicated do continue still not onely true members of the invisible body but visible members of the flock of Christ so the right of Baptisme doth belong to the Infants of such parents though not actuall and constant members of this or that present assembly in Church order 2. If they be without because no members of a politike bodie or spirituall fellowship then all members which are of one societie are without to another For they that be not of the bodie are not capable of Church censures or subject to the authoritie one of another And so not being under the judgement of that particular Church to it they are without whereas in ancient and moderne times distinct Societies did communicate together admit and receive each other as brethren to testifie their fellowship in the faith If the reason whereupon the Apostle saith the Church of Corinth was not to judge them that were without was because they were not within the Church of Corinth and so not under their censure or judgement this holds true of them that be of another society admitted to the Sacrament as well as of such as be no set members desiring to be received to the Lords Supper 3. The fornicators of this world do they not explaine whom the Apostle pointeth unto by the title of being without ver 10. 11. such as had not received the covenant of grace 4. Church order is necessarie we denie not but this order that a man should be a constant and set member of a particular societie by covenant to make him a true member of the visible Church or to give him title or interest to the publick order this is not taught of God 5. Paul divides all men into two ranks the first and greater without the last and lesser within but that beleevers who have received the holy Ghost and have been baptised into Jesus Christ that they and their children should be reckoned among them that are without that we read not in this nor any other Scripture but in phrase of Scripture hereticks themselves are within the Church 6. The beleevers not yet gathered as the godly learned think into a certain distinct body are called beleevers brethren disciples but that they should be comprehended under them that are without it hath not been beleeved in the Church 7. Without saith the Apostle whether alluding to this place or not let others judge are dogs inchanters whoremongers not such as are called faithfull and holy walking in integritie beleeving in and professing Jesus Christ to be their Saviour 8. They that are without in the Apostes sense are Aliens from the Common-wealth of Israel strangers from the covenant of promise having no hope and without God in the world but we hope you will not passe such rash and unadvised censure upon your brethren who be not gathered into your societie as set members 9. Let the interpretation stand and he is without not onely who is no set member of some congregationall Assembly but he that is not subject to the censure of the community of that particular combination few or many with or without Officers And so all the reformed Churches in the world who ascribe the power of the keyes to the Presbitry or Classes and not to the community and some amongst your selves if not the most shall be without also And therefore we cannot think approved Christians desiring to be received unto the Sacrament either to be without or uncapable of Church censures for the time being if they should offend though not set members of any particular congregation for desiring baptisme for their children or themselves to be admitted to the Lords Supper for the time they put themselves under the ordinance of Jesus Christ there And as they are members for the time so they might be proceeded against according to the rule prescribed by our Saviour as they would proceed with an offending member 10. If upon just and good reason a passage of Scripture can be cleared to prove that for which it was never alledged by any writer we are not to except against any truth of God because it wanteth mans testimonie Onely if we desire credit in such cases our reasons must be weightie and convincing But for your exposition of this text of Scripture as yet we have not observed one substantiall ground or approved author to be alledged Doctor Ames shewing the necessitie of Christians ioyning themselves to some particular Church giveth this reason Quoniam alias fieri non potest qu●● conturbentur signa illa quibus
as erroneous we hope you will not be offended You know how oft it hath beene objected that Non-conformists in practice are Separatists in heart but that they goe crosse to their own positions or smother the truth for sinister ends They of the Separation boast that they stand upon the Non-conformist's grounds A vainglorious flourish and sleight pretence But both these are much countenanced by your sudden change if you be changed as it is reported How shall your brethren bee able to stand up in the defence of their innocencie and the uprightnesse of their cause when your example and opinion shall be cast in their dish Must they leave you now with whom they have held society Or will you plead for Separation which you have condemned as rash and inconsiderate You know that thy who have run this way have fallen into manifold divisions and may not you justly feare lest the same befall you Some warnings you have had already and have you not cause to feare every day more and more Errour is very fruitfull and will spread apace A cracke in the foundation may occasion a wide breach in the building where there will not be means or mind to amend it Experience every day may tutour us herein But to let passe all inconveniences our request in all meeknesse and love is that if these or any of the forementioned opinions be indeed your Tenants you would be pleased to take a second review of your grounds and send us your strongest reasons that have swayed you in these matters and if we shall find them upon due examination to be such as will carry weight we shall be ready to give you the right hand of fellowship if otherwise you shall receive our just and modest animadversions in what we conceive you have erred from the truth You will not judge if we cannot apprehend the strength of your grounds it is because we love not the truth or bee carryed with by-respects though these conceipts prevaile too much Such rigid and harsh censures cannot lodge in meeke and humble breasts Weighty reasons promote the truth not unadvised judging You your selves have judged that to be errour which now you take to be truth when yet you were not blinded with by-respects nor hudwinked your eyes that you might not see the light And if you have just warrant from God to pull downe what you have builded and to build what you have pulled downe we desire you would lovingly and maturely impart it for as yet we have scene none which we are not ready to prove and shew by the rule of truth to be too weake to carry any burthen We adore with you the fulnesse of the Scripture and we know the Counsell of the Lord shall stand if you can shew that you walke in the wayes of God we shall heartily rejoyce to walke with you but if you have turned aside we shall earnestly desire that you would be pleased seriously to consider the matter and speedily reforme what is out of order Thus not doubting of your favourable interpretation of this our motion for the preventing of distraction maintenance of peace and searching out of the truth whereby we may be directed to live to the praise of God the good of his people and comfort of our soules beseeching God to lead and guide us into all truth and holinesse and keepe us blamelesse untill his glorious appearance we rest Your loving Brethren An Epistle written by the Elders of the Churches in NEW-ENGLAND to those godly Ministers fore-mentioned that sent over the Positions Reverend and beloved Brethren IN these remote Coasts of the earth whereunto the good hand of God hath brought us as we doe with much comfort of heart call to mind the many gracious blessings which both with you and from you we injoyed in our Christian and holy communion the memory and fruit whereof we hope shall never be blotted out so we have also seen cause to looke back to our former administrations there and to search and trie our wayes that wherein soever we have formerly gone astray we might judge our selves for it before the Lord And that seeing now God hath set before us an open doore of libertie wee might neither abuse our libertie in the Gospel to runne out into any groundlesse unwarrantable courses nor neglect the present opportunitie to administer by the helpe of Christ all the holy ordinances of God according to the patterne set before us in the Scripture In our native Countrey when we were first called to the Ministery many of us tooke some things to be indifferent and lawfull which in after-times we saw to be sinfull and durst not continue in the practise of them there Afterwards some things that we bare as burthens that is as things inexpedient though not utterly unlawfull we have no cause to retain and practise the same things here which would not have been not onely inexpedient but unlawfull such things as a man may tollerate when he cannot remove them hee cannot tollerate without sinne when he may remove them Besides some things we practised there which wee speak to our shame and griefe which we never took into serious consideration whether they were lawfull and expedient or no but took them for granted and generally received not onely by the most Reformed Churches but by the most godly and judicious servants of God amongst them which neverthelesse when we came to weigh them in the ballance of the Sanctuarie we could not find sufficient warrant in the Word to receive them and establish them here of one of these three kinds will these our present practises appeare to be which you call our new opinions or Innovations here except it be some few of them which though they have been reported to you to be our Judgements and practises yet are indeed farre from us The partieulars are too many and too weightie to give you account of them and the ground of our proceedings about them in a Letter But to give you if it be the will of God the better satisfaction we have sent you a short Treatise touching each particular that according to your desire you might understand from us how farre we do acknowledge any of these tenents and upon what ground hoping that according to your promise if upon due examination you shall find any weight in them you will give us the right hand of fellowship But if otherwise you will send us your just and faithfull animadversions and we doe not suspect your loves to the truth or your sincere speaking according to your conscience in the sight of God Neither taxe we you as siding from the truth with by-respects whereof you complain verily we abhorre such rash harsh and presumptuous notoriousnesse we see as much cause to suspect the integritie of our own hearts as yours and so much the more as being more privie to the deceitfulnesse of our own hearts then to yours And we cannot but with much thankfulnesse of heart acknowledge
it just and right altogether to debar them as having no right nor title to those priviledges of the Church It is your opinions whereto we had respect not simply your practice It never entred into us to perswade you to a set Liturgy much lesse to complain that you had not accepted ours But that all stinted Liturgies should be condemned as devised worship and so condemned as that none may lawfully be present at or pertake of the Sacraments administred in a stinted or devised forme this wee called a new opinion Neither do we mention it because we knew it to be the private opinion of some Brethren among you whom we had left to the liberty of their owne judgment so far as the maintenance of the Truth and a just call did not ingage us but because it was cryed up and advanced with all diligence and endeavour of some among us standing affected England-ward as if a chief point of holinesse consisted in separation You know how great a fire a little sparkle kindles And seeing this Distraction and Rent had its originall growth and continuance from some Brethren in those parts or affected to that way when in loving and friendly manner we could neither receive grounds at home for our conviction nor procure just satisfaction to the contrary what could wee doe lesse then call upon you joyntly to know your judgment and either by sound proof to be by you convinced if happily you should approve their separation which we esteem groundlesse rash unlawfull and prejudiciall to outward peace or being backed by a testimony of its dislike from you we might the better be both incouraged and furnished to endevour the quenching of that fire which was kindled but in too many places In other perticulars also wee conceive you goe beyond Commission given of God granting them authority to whom God hath not committed it debarring others from the priviledge of the Sacraments who have title thereto by the Covenant of grace Your love in that you were pleased to signifie first your kinde and respective acceptance of our Letter and now also to send us an answer thereto we acknowledge it with all thankfulnesse and shall endevour through the grace of God to return like affection in truth of heart if in measure we fall short Of your respect to us in particular we make no question your expressions are beyond that we could expect as also what we dare own But we humbly beseech the Lord to direct uphold and guide us that in some measure we may walk worthy of our vocation and approv our selves faithfull to your consciences It was one end of our writing to be satisfied in this point whether you approve the ways of Separation whereof wee complain and their courses who laboured with all their might when they conceived hope to be heard to perswade therunto Against which if we knew your judgment you testified among us You know they that separate are not all of one straine and temper Some deny all communion with us publick and private some admit of private but deny all publick and some joyne in Prayer before and after Sermon as also preaching of the Word because in their esteeme this may be done without communion in a Church-way but refuse to partake of the Sacraments All which Separations wee judge uncharitable contrary to the Commandement of Christ and have ever thought that you whilst with us and we were of one minde herein If of late we have conceived fears of some of you deere Brethren as leaning too much to what formerly you disliked we beseech you weigh what urgent and pressing Reasons forced us thereunto and we shall most gladly wee heartily desire you to rest assured lay hold of every line and syllable that may tend to dislodge such apprehensions For as we conceive the dispute to be unreasonably moved the Rent offensive the opinions themselves prejudiciall to the cause of God and the advancers thereof to have passed the limits prescribed by God so wee shall esteem it an inestimable blessing if now what hinders being removed wee might joyn with one heart and soule in one way of God to promote his glory and seek the good of his Church and people We trust in the Lord we should not draw back in any course wherein wee may see the Lord going before us nor be an offence to any to keep the Lords way wee seek the truth and are perswaded it is the cause of God which we defend we plead for Communion with the Churches of Christ no further then they hold communion with Christ still desiring to keepe the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace with your selves and all others who walke in the right way of truth peace and comfort How the Lord may be pleased to deale with us or dispose of us wee know not his blessed will be done But of this we are resolved through his grace not willingly to raise trouble or dissention among you if through ignorance or infirmity we shall not so fall in as to be of one minde with you in these matters And here we desire you to consider that in these particulars you dissent as much one from another as we dissent from you and that wherein we dissent from you and perhaps from the lesser part of you you dissent from the judgement and practice of all Reformed Churches This wee speake not to prejudice your cause but to intreat your serious re-examination of what you have sent us and this tryall thereof by the Touchstone of the Word For if we mistake not in many things it will not abide the Test You have written in great love and tendernesse that your Positions might be so scanned and wee shall endeavour with such affection to try all things and hold fast that which is good And now beseeching the guidance of the Spirit with your leave wee shall endeavour to deale fully and plainly as the nature of the cause requireth intreating you impartially to consider the grounds whereupon we go and weigh what wee shall say in the ballance of the Sanctuary The Lord of his rich mercy in Jesus Christ direct us in discerning what is right and pleasing in his sight Cast offences out of the Church close up Rents and Divisions reveal his Truth more and more set up and mayntain the purity of his own Ordinances unite the hearts of his people to the love and feare of his holy Name teach us self-deniall and keep us blamelesse to the comming of the Lord Jesus Christ Amen I POSITION That a stinted forme of Prayer and set Liturgie is unlawfull Answ BEfore we proceed to declare our selves concerning this position It will be needfull that some thing be premised for the explication of the terms thereof We suppose 1 By a Liturgy and forme of Prayer you mean not a forme of private Prayers composed for the helpe and direction of weaker Christians but the System or body of publike Prayers generally used in
a word of Church-Covenant either in the Institution or administration of the Seales before they were admitted to them That Christians are solemnly ingrafted into the body of Christ and into particular Societies by the Seales is a truth acknowledged on all sides but that ever it was deemed necessarie that a Christian should be a set member of a particular Congregationall Church before he were admitted to the Seales or that by divine institution any such thing is ordained as necessarie thereunto that upon the grounds before mentioned we denie and cannot account it lesse then an addition to the institution For if the Sacraments be seales of the Covenant of grace and baptisme by divine Institution belong to Disciples faithfull Saints who have gladly received the Word of grace are justified by faith sanctified by the Spirit adopted to be the children of God by grace and heires apparent to the kingdom of heaven then to debarre such from the Seales and their seed from Baptisme because they be not in Church-Covenant as you speake is an addition to the ordinance of grace and many wayes injurious to the people of God V. POSITION That the power of Excommunication is so in the body of the Church that what the Major part shall allow must be done though the Pastors and Governors and the rest of the Assembly be of another minde and that peradventure upon more substantiall reasons Answer IF the Question had been Whether the power of Excommunication lies in the body of the Congregation consisting of officers and members our Answer should be Affirmative and according hereunto is also our practise and wee hope your judgement and ours are not different herein But seeing the Question is Whether it is so in the body of the Congregation that what the Major part doth allow that must be done though the Pastors and Governors and the rest of the Assembly doe dissent upon more substantiall reasons Our Answer is Negative viz. that the power of Excommunication is not sealed in the Congregation neither ought it to be so in any of the Churches of the Lord Jesus who ought not to carry matters by number of votes against God as this Position implyeth but by strength of rule and reason according to God The power of the Apostles was not to doe things against the truth but for the truth 2 Cor. 13. 8 and not for destruction but for edification 2 Cor. 10. 8. And the same may be said concerning the power which God hath given to the Church and if any Church among us have swerved from the rule which is more then we know we doe not allow them in such a practise but should be ready as the Lord should helpe to convince them of their sin therein Reply THis Question is much mistaken for the demand is not whether in the Congregation matters should be carryed by number of votes against God as you interpret the Position but whether the power of Excommunication so lye in the body of the Congregation as that sentence must proceed in externoforo according to the vote and determination of the Major part and so whether power of admission of members doe so reside in the communitie as that they must be refused whom the Major part refuse though the Pastors and Governors and part of the Congregation be of another judgement and he admitted whom the Major part doth approve And though the Church hath received no power against God but for God yet in the execution of the power no doubt the members of that Church may be of different judgements and affections wherein the one side or other doth erre and is deceived Now the Question hereupon moved is whether the power of the keyes be so given and committed to the society of the faithfull as that in externall Court that act or sentence must stand and be in force which the greater part shall determine amongst them which hold the power of the keyes to be given to the Church Some distinguish betwixt the power it self which they give to the Church and the execution and exercise of it which they confine to the Presbytery Others give the power of the keyes with the exercise thereof to the whole body of the Church or if in the dispensation they attribute any thing to the Officers it is but as servants of the Church from whom they derive their authoritie By Church also some understand the communitie of the faithfull together with their officers and guides And here lyeth the stone at which they of the Seperation stumble and which we conceive to be your judgement and practise wherein we required your plaine answer with your reasons but have received no satisfaction You referre us to Mr. Parkers reasons to prove the power of the keyes to belong to the whole Church who are of farre different judgement from Mr. Parker in the point it selfe And if your judgement and practise be according to that of the Seperation which we feare you dissent from him and we cannot but dissent from you upon these considerations 1. No power agreeth to the multitude or communitie of the faithfull but that which is given them of the Lord by his positive Law For the whole spirituall power for the gathering and government of his Church is given to Christ as Mediator And if the power of the keyes be derived from and communicated by Christ unto his Church of necessitie it must draw its originall from divine positive Law and can agree to none but as it is communicated But the communicated power of the keyes with the execution thereof Christ hath not given immediately to the whole multitude but to some persons and Officers designed and appointed thereunto Peruse the severall passages of Scripture wherein power and authoritie of preaching the Gospel administring the Sacraments binding and loosing is given to the Church and it is apparent that distinct severall persons are spoken of and not the whole communitie Goe teach all Nations and baptize them c. Whose sinnes yee remit they are remitted c. Feed my Lambes feed my sheepe c. Were these things spoken to the whole communitie or to speciall persons 2. If Christ gave this power to the communitie was it from the beginning of the Church or tooke it effect after the Churches were planted and established by the Apostles Not the first for then the Apostles themselves should derive their power from the communitie and societie of the faithfull which they did not but from Christ immediately both in respect of gifts and graces their calling it selfe and the designation of their persons It is said the power of the keyes given to the Apostles was given to the Church In tuitu ejusdem tanquam finis totius And it is true the Apostles were given to the Church and the power they received was for the good of the whole but this is not enough That power may be said to be received immediately by the Church as the first