Church of England be not off the the very same stampe with Mr Hookers for the Church of Rome Thus what by the Prelates and theyr Proctors on the one hand and these Pharisaicall dawbing Reformists on the other theyr case is come to be such as all may iustly feare least the end of that Church will be to look back not onely in part but euen wholy to the Romish Egypt and Sodom and to wallow agayne in the same myer from which they would seem aâ— this tyme to hâ—â—â—e â—en washed For it is just with God to make such eate the fruit of there owne way and to fill them with theyr owne devises Prov. 1.31 And what other thing do the books pretences practise and declining of all sorts both Ministers and people among them â—â—rtend Yet Lord thou God of power and Father of mercy work better things for them and among them if it be thy will To that which D. B. pretendeth next of keping communion vvith them in things lavvfull it being likewise objected by Mr Iacob I haue answered in the Treatise ensuing Pag. 88. 170. 171. 180. Here onely I aske First what one lawfull thing they have that we have not Secondly in what one thing which he counteth lawfull we can have communion with them in that estate and not sinne against God by partaking withall in the apostasy of the man of sinne Of all other things it is most like he will say that we might heare many comfortable truths taught by theyr Preachers and many good prayers conceyved by them Yet such is their case as we can not do this neyther but we must needs partake with the Ministery of Antichrist all theyr Preachers even the best being Priests and Deacons so made by the Prelates Of which see more in the latter Treatise following Pag. 188. c. Not to speak here any further of it or of theyr Book-worship taken out of the Popes Masse-book according to which they administer the Sacraments marry bury pray c. or of the compulsion of all maner people even the most wicked to be members of theyr Church or of theyr Church discipline being in the hands of the Prelates and by the Canon Law or finally of the severall offices entrance ministration maintenance of theyr whole Hierarchy To none of which can any joyne or submit in any part of Gods worship but they must needs partake in evill even in the sinnes of Babylon and of Antichrist that sonne of perdition Such is their constitution and such is the standing of all that continew therein Of his last pretence tovvching diversity of judgement by reason whereof he would perswade to keep communion with them I have spoken * In the Ansvver to Section 3. here a litle before To which now I will adde this onely that his collection herevpon viz. that we should therefore keep communion with the Ministery and confusion of Antichrist for of what els speaketh he if he speak to the poynt in question is most absurd and vngodly And will not Hooker think you for his Christian Papists and some such as Hadrianus for the Anabaptists perswade likewise And what then are we the nearer Or what will these men do in the end hereof Ier. 5.31 This then is not rightly to vse that diversity of judgement wherevnto in many things all Churches and Christians in deed are continually subiect here on earth but ignorantly to abuse it But herevnto it may be ‡ Da. Buck. this man was driven eyther by weaknes of iudgement in himself or by eagernes of contention and malice agaynst vs of whome he hath sometymes ben but now for his revolting from the truth and so persisting is according to the * 1 Cor. 5.4.5.11.12.13 1 Tim. 1.19.20 Mat. 18.17.18.20 Scriptures and ordinance of Christ cast out from among vs and delivered vnto Sathan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Which mercy the Lord Almighty vouchsafe him in Christ from whom he hath declined vnto Antichrist And this is all the harme I wish vnto him or any such even theyr repentance and salvation in Christ Iesus Hitherto of the Preface prefired to Mr Iacobs book Which I have answered somewhat largely from poynt to poynt rather for the satisfying of others then for any waight I judged to be in it my self Now it is tyme that I returne to Mr Iacob himself and deale with him in particular by whom I am spoken vnto and challenged by Name almost in every page of his book As if he had forgotten the old Proverbe which sayth Let not him boast himself that girdeth his harness as he that putteth it off Here then seing that this discourse came first from him to the view of the world and that also without my aunswer to his last Reply let the Reader call to mynd that which is written He that is first in his ovvne cause is iust then cometh his neighbour and maketh inquiry of him Prov. 18.17 So as he now having told his owne tale first and seming to some no doubt to be iust therein it is nedefull that I therefore come in the next place and make inquiry of him Which I do in the Treatise following submitting it now to the judgement of others to be examined of all by the word of God 1 Cor. 2 12-16 1 Thes 5.21 By it therefore do thou ChristiaÌ„ Reader try all things therein and keep that which is good Have no prejudice I pray thee eyther of Mr Iacob or my self but heare vs both speak and then consider what is spoken on eyther side from poynt to poynt And the Lord give thee vnderstanding in all things There is but one way of truth to life eternall And that is in no other but the Lord Iesus Christ Ioh. 14.6 who hath said I am the vvay the truth and the life If therefore the Churches of England as now they stand be in that good and old way prescribed by Christ wherein the Primitiue Churches were planted by the Apostles then doubtles then are in the way of truth that leadeth vnto life Yet this hath not Mr Iacob shewed in all his discourse Ier. 6.16 But now on the contrary if the Churches of England in theyr estate have in the Ioynes off the Church of Rome and with it departed from that auncyent and good way of Christ and do even vnto this day stand in the apostasy of Antichrist and that in theyr publik Ministery worship ordinances confusion of people c. then can they not so standing be assured by the word of God that they are in the way of truth which leadeth vnto life but in the by-wayes of errour which cary headlong to death and perdition 2 Thes 2.3.10.12 1 Tim. 4.1.3 Rev. 13.11 17.1.2 22.18.19 vvith Exod 20.4.5 For which cause all the people of God are bound to separate from them and not to partake in any of theyr sinnes least they receyve also of
further nor otherwise D. B. The publisher to the Reader Section 2. Novv having vveighed and considered vvith my selfe the great ignorance and errors vvherevvith those of the separation aforesaid are and have bene lately carried avvaye namely to affirme That all that stande members of the Churches of Englande are no true Christians nor in state of salvation And such like most vngodly sentences vvhich vvould grieve any Christian soule once to thinke on much more to publish to the vievv of the vvorld And vveighing likevvise vvithall the greate vveakenes of manie Christians among vs vvho through vvant of experience or due consideration of things as they are may easelie by theyr delusions be dravvne avvay into those errors vvith them I haue therefore Asvvell in hope of reclaiming of the said parties from their said extremities vvhich novv I iudge the most of them for vvant of meanes see not As also for the staying of others from running into the same grievous excesse vvith them novv published this discourse to the vievv of the vvorld vvhich hath line buryed in the hands of some fevv Many being desirous of it vvho by reason of the largnes in vvriting out of the same could not obteyne it VVhere vnto I am so much the rather induced For that the Reasons herein by Maister Iacob alleadged haue by Gods blessing reclaymed many from their former errors and satisfied others vvho have bene doubtfull and subiect to fall into the same In the examining of vvhich Discourse I shall desire the Reader to observe a fevv notes for his better proffiting in the same 1. And First among the rest to note this as a token of the strange and obstinate dealing of Maister Iohnson and others of them viz. That heretofore vntill such time as the Argument hereafter mentioned was framed against them they neuer denyed That the doctrine and profession of the Churches of England vvas sufficient to make those that belâ—eued and obeyed them to be true Christians and in state of salvation But alvvayes held professed and acknovvledged the contrarie As by the publike confessions of themselves namely Maister Barrovv Maister Penry and Maister Iohnson himselfe in this discourse mentioned in Pag. 167. 168. appeareth But novve they seing That if they should acknovvledge the said Doctrines and profession to be sufficient to salvation That then this conclusion vvould of necessitie follovv that those that hold and practise them are a true * * VVhich yet Mr. Penâ—y coÌ„fessed see Pag. 168. Church And so theyr ovvn former iudgements should be crossed Rather I say then they vvould be dravvne to that They novve stick not to deny their ovvne confessions vvhich they thinke to be the faifest vvay for them and like vnnaturall children so vehemently hate contemne and dispise theyr mother vvho bare them nourished and brought them vp from vvhose brests they sucked that svveere milke of the meanes of euerlasting life and salvation if euer they had any tast of it at all Beeing notvvithstanding not abashed novve in a desperate manner in the hardnes of theyr heart to affirme ‡ ‡ VVhich appeareth generally by denying the Assumption of Mr. Iacobs particularly in these Pages 29. 139. 140 141. That none by the doctrine of the Churches of England can be a true Christian or saved But that they all worship God in vayne Are abolished from Christ Are Babilonians Idolaters departers from the faith worse then Infidels And such like most vnchristian sentences making them all one vvith the Church of Rome c. VVhich impious affirmations vvould cause any Christian heart to lament and bleed for grief VVhose vnchristian sentences and false and deceiptfull Reasons the very naming vvhereof vvere sufficient to refute them are most plainly taken avvaye and cleane ouerthrovvne by these brief Replyes of Maister Iacob vnto every of them vnto vvhich I referre yovv Onely this I adde vvith all vvhich I vvould desire might be noted That if they continevv in their former confessions That the Doctrines and profession of the Churches of England are sufficient to salvation As they ought it being the very truth Then are they all in a most grievous schisme in so peremptorily condempning and separating from such true Christians and Churches And if they deny it as they have begonne to doe Then doe they runne headlong into an intollerable sinne and extremitie vvithout all vvarrant of Gods vvord And besides give iust occasion to be called fearfull * * VVhich name they vniustly give to those that iustly for this theyr extremity forsake their fellovvship Apostates in so vvholy falling and that advisedly for advantage sake as it seemeth playnely to appeare from so notable a truth vvhich before they imbraced and acknovvledged The Aunswer All that the publisher hath published here is eyther some foolish conceits of his owne or some frivolous cavils and malicious calumniations against the truth and vs that professe it His conceits of his ovvne knovvledge and our ignorance of his ovvne strength others vveaknes of reclayming and satisfying many by publishing this discourse of the force and plainenes of Mr. Iacobs Replyes c. I omit according to the rule which saith * Prov. 26.4 Aunsvver not a foole according to his foolishnes least thou also be like him But his cavils and calumniations against the truth and vvitnesses thereof being also objected by Mr Iacob in his Replyes I have aunswered in the Treatise following according to the counsell of the same Wisdome which saith †Pro. 26.5 Aunsvver a foole according to his foolishnes least he be vvise in his ovvne eyes The Aunswer therefore to that which here he obiecteth of our assertions and sentences of our former and present acknovvledgement of the Church of England her profession doctrines members Assemblyes c. see it in the Treatise following Pag. 7. 16. 20. 22. 33. 60. 63. 73. 82. 86. 94. 103. 106. 116. 120. 147. 158. 162. 170. 177. 188. 196. 200. c. And here note withall 1. That in all these things we are still of the same mynd as heretofore Mr Barrovv Mr Penry my self and the rest of vs have ben So far are we from crossing denying or any way altering our former judgement and confession as he falsely pretendeth For which see Pag. 177. 178. 179. 180. 181. 2. That we do not hate contemne and despise theyr Church which he calleth the Mother that bare vs c. but inasmuch as we have ben members thereof heretofore in which respect she was then in deed our Mother but now do see her to stand in adulterous estate we do therefore plead vvith her that she may take away her fornications out of her sight and her adulteryes from between her brests And we go out of her that we may not partake in her sinnes and that we receyve not of her plagues Both which things we do at the commaundement of God and by warrant of his word wherein he hath straitly charged all his people thus for to walk Hos
their plagues Rev. 18.4 And if it be well mynded Mr Iacob himself howsoever he pretend otherwise yet in deed yeeldeth thus much when he is driven to confesse that theyr constitution is such * Pag. 37. 61 69. 70. 84. 154. as they stand in error and that of Antichrist against the Second commaundement in vayne vvorship departing from and denying the faith in their Ministery c. But for these and all the rest thou mayest see and I pray thee good Reader well to mynd the Arguments Replyes and Aunswers following From the reading whereof I will not not now any longer hold thee The God of peace tread Sathan vnder thy feet and by his word and Spirit lead thee into the way of truth to the conservation of thy soule vnto life eternall And if thou reapest any fruit of my labours give prayse vnto God and pray for me the weakest of his servants and vnworthyest of the witnesses of Iesus The grace of our Lord Iesus Christ be with thy spirit Amen Thyne in Christ Fran Iohnson AN AVNSWER TO M. H. IACOBS ARGVMENTS AND REPLIES concerning the Churches and Ministery of ENGLAND Chap. 1. Of the Title of Maister Iacobs Book which is thus A DEFENCE of the Churches and Ministerie of ENGLAND FRAN. IOHNSON his Aunsvver THe defence of the Churches and Ministery of England were an enterprise worth the taking in hand if Maister Iacob effected in deed what the Title of his Book pretendeth in show But he that readeth his book and mindeth it well shall find him promise mountaines and performe molehils Let the sequell shew it Now I would that Maister Iacob should speak himself without stammering what Churches and what Ministerie of ENGLAND he defendeth All or some only It is a poynt needfull to be knowen and mentioned All may see it would giue great light for deciding the controuersy betwen vs. And who would not think he should readily declaer it Yet he flies from it every where Therefore that he may not alway so doe but may be drawen to answer directly vnto it as also for the Readers better help and more clearing of the truth I wil particulerly and as plainely as I can describe how the Churches and Ministerie of England are to be considered And thē expect his aunswer If I be mistaken or if maister Iacob and such as liue in that Church who therefore haue better occasion to know it can do it more fully and plainely I shal willingly heare it In the meane time this is my iudgment First for the Churches to consider them as followeth 1 In respect of the Conuocation-house which consisteth of the Prelates and some other of the Priests assembled togeather with them And so they haue but one Church in the Land And that when there is a Parliament or like occasion I take it also that out of this Church the Prince the Nobles and people are excluded Saue that when they haue determined their matters they haue for some of them the consent of the Parliament 2 According to the number of their Archbishops and so they haue two Metropolitan Churches vnder which all the rest are subiect and cōprised 3 According to the number of their Arch and Lord Bishops and so there are about 26. Churches comprehending all within their seuerall Diocesses Hither also I referre the Cathedrall Churches 4 According to the ecclesiastical Courts of the Archbs. Lordbs Chancelors Archdeacons Commissaries and Officials vnder which all the other Ministers and people stand subiect and so according to the number of those Courts there may be some 200. Churches or thereabout 5 According to the number of the Parish assemblies of which all stand mēbers and so ther are many thousād Churches in the Land Hitherto of the Churches The Ministery may be considered two wayes Eyther more generally as they are all Priests or Deacons or more particularly as they are superiour or inferiour Superiour as Archbishops Lordbishops Suffraganes Deanes Archdeacons and the rest of that sort Inferiour as Parsons Vicars Curates Stipendary Preachers Houshold Chapleynes and the like Then in al these consider fower things 1. their office 2. their entrāce 3. their Administration 4. their maintenance This for the Ministerie Now let M. Iacob tell vs in his next 1. whether he defend all these Churches and Ministerie of England or but some of them 2. If not all but some only which then they are that he defendeth and which he leaveth as vtterly vnlawfull without all defence 3. For those he defendeth let him show in what place and pages of his book we may find the defence of them For whether it be that I perceyue it not or that he doth it not of this I am sure for my self that I cannot find in al his book so much as any one of them defended As others find let thē speak And to put al out of doubt let M. Iacob shew it Lastly if he will be intreated let him tell the cause why his book being entituled A defence of the Churches Ministerie of England came not out Cum priuilegio Yea why it was printed beyond sea and not in England It is a shrewd token cōsidering the title that his Defence euen at home amōg his neighbours is accoūted very weak and simple For the name Brownists by which we are reproched in the forefrōt of his book note these things 1. That in like manner long since by the Priests and Pharisees were the Apostles and Primitiue Churches termed * Act. 24.5 a sect of Nazarites and at this day by the Papists are the Professors of the Gospel called Calvinists Zuinglians Huguenotes and the like 2. M. Browne from whose name this byword was first taken vp is a member and Minister of M. Iacobs Church not of ours yet holding as we heare in his iudgment the truth we professe but for his practise stāding in the apostasy and false worship wherein they are So then not we but M. Iacob and such like may fitly be called Brownists inasmuch as in their iudgment they hold the things we stand for to be good yet in their practise like Browne are other men walking with the Church of England in her euill way 3. For our selues we acknowledg with the disciples in the Primitiue Churches and the faithful in al ages since that we are ‡ Act. 11.26 Christians striuing now for our time and estate against the remainder of the abominations of Antichrist to keep the commaundements of God and faith of Iesus Therefore doth it not trouble vs that by M. Iacob or any other we are thus reuiled for the name of Christ It is inough for vs that the †1 Pet. 4.14 spirit and truth of God which on their part is euil spoken of is on our part glorified But yet let him and all such take heed vnto it in time Now I proceed to his maine and maimed Argument Which is as followeth Chap. 2. M. IACOBS ARGVMENT as it is novv propounded and printed by vvhich
doctrine Now if you cannot prooue your Assemblies to be such you may see your own witnesses euen your owne doctrine and book giue verdict against you If you can prooue them to be such where and what are your proofes touching the particulars mentioned in this your owne description of a visible Church H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 1. Excep THis your first Exception is the 19. Article of this very book vvhich vvee alleadge vvherein a visible Church is described to be a Congregation where the pure word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all those things that of necessitie are requisite Novv this description you reiect not but our practise say you is contrary and therefore vve haue no true visible Churches nor Christians I ansvver vvherein is it contrarie in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite doth not all this Christian vvorld see and confesse that our publique practise is agreeable to our profession in that book Nay say you but proue you your assemblies to be such and if you can proue them where and what are your proofs if you doe not you are confuted A vvorthy confutation sure and very Clerklike As if my Tenaunt should denie me rent for my house and land yea and goe to Lavv vvith me for the fee simple vvhich he hath holden in ferme of me these 40. yeares and I haue hetherto quietly enioyed from my Auncestors time out of minde Novv he suing me at lavv for that vvhich I thus possesse saith proue your right to this land vvhich you haue if you can vvhat and vvhere be your proofes let me see them Or els I your Tenaunt vvill haue it This vvere goodly dealing vvere it not and very lavvfull EueÌ„ so doe you asking proofes of vs for that vvhich vve possesse haue possessed before you made any question about it nay you your selues held part of this possession of vs and vvith vs till yesterday vvhen you began first to lay claime in this sorte to the vvhole Novv your reason is let vs prooue it to be ours where be our proofs Or els you will not accknowledg vs any longer see I pray you your owne equity If this suffice not to make you desist I leaue it to the Iudges to giue sentence Secondly note further Our Article saith A Church is where the word is preached and Sacraments ministred according to all things that of necessitie are requisite Where vveâ— plainly insinuate that many errours may be added and truthes wanting in a visible Church but nothing which is absolutely necessarie Now what doth our practize in Preaching or Sacraments want that is absolutely necessarie without which there cannot be any true preaching or Sacraments at all shevv it vs because vve see it not our selues I assure you vntil then your first reason hath no reason in it Fr. Io. his Aunsvver to M. Iacobs 1. Reply vpon the 1. Excep HOw fit or vnfit the description is I neither did nor doe examine Onely because it is your owne profession and your practise is coÌ„trary vnto it I did from hence take the first Exception requiring of you to proue your Assemblies to be such or els to know that your owne doctrine is a witnes against your selues Now in your Reply haue you according to the particulers of that description iustified your Church assemblies Nothing lesse Let this therefore be first obserued But what then haue you done First pretending as if you repeated our exception and your owne description you leaue out diuers particulers of speciall moment there expressed As first where the visible Church is described to be a congregation of faithfull men you leaue out these wordes of faithfull men belike knowing that your Congregations which are holds of all foule spirits and cages of euery vncleane and hatefull bird Reuel 18.2 cannot therefore iustly be accounted congregations of faithfull men Secondly where the description speaketh of the Sacraments to be duely ministred you leaue out this word duely because it crosseth your womens Baptisme priuate Communion receiuing of the most prophane and their seed among you c. Lastly where in the description it is required both for preaching the pure word and due administration of the Sacraments that they be don according to Christes ordinance you leaue out these words according to Christes ordinance belike because this clause quite overthroweth both your Antichristian Prelacy from whih al the inferior Ministers among you receiue power and authority to preach and minister the SacrameÌ„ts and your Preisthood and Deaconry wherein you all administer and your stinted imposed prayers exhortations crosses in the forehead questions to Infantes vse of the same wordes in English in ministring the Lords Supper which the Papists vsed and still vse in Latine not retaining the words of Christes institution and such like Thus hauing left out such particulers as were of speciall moment against you yet you demaund vvherein your paactize is contrary to your profession and description of a visible Church in vvhat things that of necessitie are requisite We aunswer in all the particulers of that description aforesayd For first your Church-assemblies are not congregations of faithfull men but a confusion of all manner of people though neuer so wicked and prophane The ‡ D. VVâ—iâ—g booke pag 176. and 178 Prelates and Formalists affirm that your Church is full of Atheistes Papistes Idolaters Drunkards Whoremongers and such like The * Sermon on Rom. 12 pag. 65. and 66. Demonstration in the preface forward Preachers likewise that in your Church are svvarmes of Atheists Idolaters Papists erronious and heretical Sectaries Witches Charmers Sorcerers Murtherers Theeues Adulterers Lyars c. Finally that a man may be any thing among you sauing a sound Christian These things being so as both your estate and writings beare witnes iudge your selues whether your Assemblies can be accounted Congregations of faithfull men or no which is the first point of the description aforesaid Secondly in the same description is required That the pure vvord of God be preached according to Christes ordinance But with you are allowed besides the word of God the Apocrypha books and in steed of preching the word the reading of Homilies as may appeare in that ‡ Book of Articles published Anno 1502. book of Articles alledged by your self Yet who knoweth not that in those bookes are diuers vntruths errors contradictions blasphemies and such like So farre are they from being the pure word of God or agreeing therewith Moreouer when and where the word is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ And the Ministers that preach it do in your constitution alway stand subiect to be silenced suspended excommunicated and degraded by the Prelates and Ordinaries to whom when you are made Priests you promise and when you enter vpon a benefice you sweare Canonicall obedience Neither are you suffered any further to preach the word and truth of God then agreeth
testimonies of theirs if the case were not as cleare as the Sunne at noone day But you say I depraue their meanings vtterly Why so I pray you Because they say not that all your Assemblies are such nor your vvhole Assemblies though they graunt very many such to be among you that is manie of your Church to be Atheists Papists Drunkards Whoremongers Thieves Murtherers Witches c. Alas M. Iacob it pittieth me to see your extreame follie and evill conscience Your follie that see not how both they and you giue the cause in this graunt and therby also testifie that I do not at all deprave their meanings Is it possible that your Church-assemblies should be full of such knowen vngodly persons and yet be Congregations of faithful men It never entred into my thought much lesse did I ever say it that your whole Assemblies are such I know and willingly accknowledg many of your Church not to be so for which I praise God Alwaies I except your publike worship and Idolatrie wherein all even the best among you are inwrapped This I said that your Assemblies are not congregations of faithful men but a confusion of all manner of people though never so vvicked And this you see do your owne men testifie Adde herevnto that both they and your self graunt your Assemblies herein ought to be reformed If they be already Congregations of faithfull men what reformation would you haue in this behalf But if their estate herein be such as they ought to be reformed why are you so shamles and foolish thus to speake as you do in all this matter Besides your folly you bewray an evill conscience in asmuch as you denie that thing the light whereof doth so shine in your conscience as even whiles you would shift it of you are constrained to acknowledg it whether you will or not Where you speak of your owne men that they deny not your Assemblies to be companies of faithfull men or vtterly to be seperated from it is to no purpose at all saue against your selfe For first though they speak it not in these very syllables yet the thing it self necessarily followeth vpon their words It is without question that the heathen Poets did themselues worship Idols yet notwithstanding sometimes they so spake in their writings as Paull doth * Act. 17.28.29 from thence conclude that not Idols but the true God onely is to be worshipped Had it now ben of waight for any of them to have alleadged against the Apostle that theit Poets did not deny Idols to be worshipped Yet you think it sufficient to withstand the truth with any such pretence Let this once spoken serve for aunswer to all your reproches wherewith you burden me many times for the collections which I deduce necessarily from your owne and other mens writings Secondly you are to know that it is not materiall against me whatsoever your men doe graunt or denie But against you it is who abide in the same Ministerie and of the same Church with them For that which you speak of the Church of the Iewes both auncient and in the time of Christ referring vs to another place hereafter in this book for proof of your comparison look you there also for aunswer therevnto And hitherto of the first point of your Article and profession differing from your practise and constitution For the second if you professe to preach the pure vvord of God as this Article requireth and yet againe both in profession and practise as here you acknowledg preach the impure and lying writings of Men such as be the Apocrypha books and your Homilies what is or can be more contrarie If your Article meane othervvise as you pretend it is full of deceit Neither shall any ever know what your profession is if your Articles doe thus crosse one another and your practise also agree with the worst But to cleare this point I aunswer furthermore 1. that it is a point of necessitie requisite that Gods vvord onely be taught For which see these Scriptures Deut. 4.2 and 12.32 Psal 119.113 Prov. 30.5.6 Esa 8.20 and 59.21 Ier. 23 16.28 Ioh. 5.39 Col. 3.16 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 and 2 Tim. 3.16.17 Gal. 1.8.9 Rev. 22.18.19 Thus by your owne exposition of this Article the Assumption of your maine Argument falleth and your Churches remaine in false constitution which is the question betweene vs. See the third Exception follovving In the aunsvver to Mr Iacobs 2. Reply 2. The Apocrypha books maintained in the Church which you say is both your profession and practise overthroweth the truth of Christian religion and bringeth in Iudaisme Popery Atheisme and what not 3. Even in the Church of Rome where these books also are received yet withal the pure word is so preached among them by Law as no doubt to some is sufficient co salvation For proof whereof see the Rhemes Testament in their note vpon 1 Tim. 2.5 Yet this hindreth not but that their Church maintaineth false doctrine as in that place also may be seen and standeth in false constitution Neither therefore can this help you It resteth then that you show the pure worde only to be preached among you by Lavv and that also according to Christes ordinance which yet you doe not neither can doe And therefore it is your self that say nothing but that you both professe practise errors Now it is well the truth so shineth in your heart as you confesse your Churches faile from the pure vvord in sundry lesser points Yet I pray you reckon vp these points in particular that by the worde of God it may be seen whether they be lesser or greater then you would beare vs in hand Then tell vs in whose power it is in your Church to redresse them Also why they are not redressed seeing you know them and haue ‡ Rev. 2.16.17 3.3 Mat. 18.15.16.17.20 1 Cor. 5.4.5 Lev. 4.13 2 Cor. 10.4.5.6 rules given by Christ for such cases if your Churches be his Lastly why you for your part abide in knowen errors and keepe not the truth and commaundements of Christ As touching that you say though they be errors yet they are not fundamentall neither doe in their owne nature abolish from Christ the fit place of handling this point followeth in the second Exception and seventh Reason to which places I referre it Yet in the meane time because here we are treating of the Apocrypha books tell me whether in retaining them you retaine not such errors as your self account fundamentall c. For example the book of Tobit teacheth that †Tob. 12.12.15 Angels doe present and bring to memory our prayers before the Lord. Now this honour you know is peculiar to Christ who “ 1 Tim. 2.5 onely is the Mediator of Intercession That Apocrypha doctrine therefore is blasphemous and an error in your sence as I take it fundamentall Adde herevnto that * 2 Mach. 12.43.44.45 offring vp of a sinne offring to God for
the dead to make reconciliation for them thereby spoken of in the book of Machabees And according to your second sence of fundamentall that ‡ 2 Machab. 14.41.42 commending of vvilfull murther taught in the same book of Machabees Not to speak of the Magick in the “ Iob. 6.6 book of To bit for healing any that is troubled with a Divell or evill spirit by a perfume made of a fishes heart and liuer These sweet doctrines with other the like do those books affoord But it skils not so long as with a bold face notwithstanding you can beare it out and say still your errors are not fundamentall c. Is this your conscience Mr. Iacob Will you thus still plead for Baall But to proceed in the third place you speak of those words according to Christs ordinance Where first marke that these words in your Article are to be referred to all the particulars going before So as to maintaine your Argument you must proue your Assemblies to be so gathered the pure vvord so preached anh the Sacraments so administred among you as Christ hath ordeined Thus might you more perswade vs and defend your selues better in one half sheet of paper then in a thousand such frivolous pamphlets as you sparse abroad to no purpose at all except it be to lay open your owne nakednes so much the more Whereas I alledged that vvhen and vvhere the vvorde is preached among you it is done by vertue of a false office and calling never appointed by Christ this you say is false too Often have I heard you say so but never could I heare you proue it To help you therefore I will show you the way how to doe it if any such thing could be And that is thus first syncerely as before God to reckon vp all the offices of Ministery which your Church by Law enjoyeth and then to note the Scriptures which teach that Christ ordained those offices in his Church secondly to show the manner of entrance into your severall offices prescribed by Law and then to name the places of Scripture where such calling is appointed by Christ This you see is a plaine and ready way touching these two points to stablish the conscience and to confound your adversaries not with show of words but with substance of matter I hope it will do you some pleasure Mr. Iacob that I haue showed you so good a way All the thanks I aske for it is that you would walk vprightly in it Now if you list not take the paines or find the way all to hard for your Archbs Lordbs Archdeacons Parsons Vicars Stipendaries and the rest of your Priests and Deacons yet at least for your self show it in defence of your owne office and calling first when you were made Priest and Deacō by the Prelates and thē when you became an House-Priest in the countrey and since a Mercenary-Priest in the citty Now I heare your Lords the Prelates haue commaunded you silence and you as an obedient childe of such reverend Fathers do readily submit to their Antichristian authority Yet let this be no excuse to put of the clearing of the former matter but seeing you haue so much the more leasure do it the more soundly and speedily Doubtles it would give great light in this case Next you say your ordinarie Preachers are true Pastors as touching the substance of Pastorall calling but whom meane you by ordinary Preachers c. Your Prelates I remember are by Law your Ordinaries Doe you meane it of them your treatise shewes it not Tell vs then who they be of whom you speak 1. whether all or some onely of your Preachers 2. whether you have any extraordinarie Preachers that have some other office 3. what you judge of those that are not in the number of the ordinary Preachers you speak of whether they also be true Pastors 4. what you account according to the Scripture the substance of the Pastorall calling whereof you speak All these points you see must be cleared afore we can vnderstand what you speak or whereof you affirme So mysticall or rather in deed so fearefull and deceitfull is your manner of speach Touching the question what is substantiall in the Ministery if you put it over to me to declare as your manner is I have already showed my judgment and reasons in †A treatise of the Minist of the Churches of Engl. p. 83. 84. 85. another treatise Which you may either refute or approue your Ministery according to those particulars or if you can do neither of these yeeld to the truth against which you have so long strugled in vaine In vaine I say for proof whereof marke what followeth next in your Reply Your self confesse that even the Preachers for whome you plead have a wrong ordination from the Prelacy Thus your owne mouth M. Iacob is witnes against your self that al your labour is in vaine Shall I yet make it more plaine vnto you Marke then Your maine defence is from ‡ See before pag 3. and 6. the doctrine of your Church as it is publiquely professed and practised by Lavv. Now your Law admitteth no other ordination but that of the Prelacy And this your self here confesse is vvrong In what case now your Ministery standeth let others judge And take you heed you please not your self any longer in such vnrighteousnes The “ 2 The. 2.12 end thereof is fearefull But besides this estate of your Ministery you confesse here also for the body of your Church that you have a confusion of people that is in deed though you speak it not in word a spirituall Babylon For Babel is in English confusion Thus both for Ministery and people you give the cause having wearied your self in the defence of Babylon all in vaine Which is and will be the fruit of your and all other mens labours in this case So the * Ier. 51.58.64 Scripture hath foretold Your other writing ‡ See the next treatise follovving at the end of this touching the comparing of the condition of a Ministery vvith Mariage long since deliuered was also long since aunswered Vnto which I have not yet received any Reply not so much as words which is the most I look for from you at any time Where next you graunt it is Christs ordinance to haue a true Pastor to a faithfull people hold you there M. Iacob and you overthrow at once all your Churches and Ministery For you neither have proued neither ever will that so you have Begging of the question though you vse it never so often is nothing but words not any proof at all After this you come to that clause of your Article which requireth due administration of the Sacraments according to Christs ordinance First mynd that divers other particulars were related wherein you faile besides those you have here mentioned See them in my ‡ Before Pag 15. 16. 17. former aunswer Now if the corruptions of the
but that still the reason deduced from thence is of force against you now you would have vs passe by you and not to apply it vnto you or your mother Church of Rome but to vnderstand it of Martion and Tatianus of whom you say that they absolutely condemning mariage and certen meats might indeed even therein vvholy fall from the faith somevvhat like to Balaam Iudas and those Apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for having their consciences conuicted and seared vvith an hote iron And thus say you are they in no comparison vvith you of Englād But first if your former answer were of anie weight it might be asked why the followers of Martion and Tatianus might not likewise have defended them thus and said that their departure from the faith vvas but in some poincts not vvholy from all Secondly if this scripture was verifyed as you graunt in Martiō and Tatianus for their condemning of mariage and meats then we must needs think it verified also in the Romishe vvhore and her apostate childrē which are falne into the very same sinnes that are heer mentioned The Apostle nameth Martion and Tatianus no more then he doeth the whorish Babylon and the children of her fornication but comprehendeth heer all such who so ever they be as shall fall into this Apostasie And further if the wordes of this scripture be duly weighed and either other scriptures or the estate of the Romish harlot and her children cōpared therewith it will be found as lively to describe these as either Martion or any other that ever were in the world 1. First when the Apostle sayth that this shal be in the latter tymes who seeth not that it doeth most directlie point at the Romish Whore Though we doubt not but Martiō and Tatianus who lived 1400. yeares since or thereabout may also be cōprehended therein 2. Secondlie when it is said they shall departe from the faith thereby signifying that once they held the faith how playne is this of the Romish harlot which in the †Rom. 1.7 Apostles time was the spouse of God and since is falne into Apostasy and become the Mother of vvhoredomes and abominations of the earth 2. Thes 2.3 and Rev. 17.1.2.3.4.5 3. Thirdlie when it is said they shall give heed to spirits of errour and doctrines of Divels how fitly agreeth this to the Romish Babylon which as the scripture els where testifies is become the habitation of Divels hold of all soule spirits Rev. 18.2 4. Fourthlie when it is said they shall speake lyes through hypocrisy not to reckon vp the infinite particulars that might be alleadged for proof hereof how fitlie doth this describe the Religion and practise of the man of sinne the Romish Antichrist which the Scripture also calleth “ a mystery of iniquity as pretending to be with and for Christ and to draw men vnto him when indeed it is opposed against and exalted above the Lord Iesus and all his holy ordinances 2 Thes 2.4.7 5. Fiftlie when it is said they shall have their consciences seared vvith an hote iron how true is this found vpon the throne of the Beast and his Kingdome concerning which the scripture also testifieth †that vvhen the vials of Gods vvrath shal be povvred out vpon them and they conuinced of their jmpieties and abominations they shal be so farre from acknowledging and forsaking them as they shall gnavv their tongues for sorrovv and rather thē they will forsake their wickednes shall fight against God and his truth ‡ Let their raylings slāders Edicts Articles iniunctions finally their cōtinuall oppositiōs madnes against the truth people of God be witnesses of all this blaspheming the God of heaven for their paines for their sores and not repenting of their vvorkes Rev. 16.10.11 Lo here a seared cōscience in the Beastes kingdome 6. Finallie when the Spirit of God giveth here two particular instances of this apostasy 1. The forbidding of mariage 2. And the commaunding to absteine from meats vvhich God hath created to be received vvith thankesgiuing How directlie doeth he in both these as it were with the finger point at the Romish Babylon and her daughters In the one that is the forbidding of Mariage when as the Romish Babylon forbiddeth it to Priests Friers Nunnes and such like and the English her daughter to fellowes of Colleges and prētises and both these Churches to all men and women in Lent Advent Rogation vveek c. In the other that is the forbidding of meats when they forbid the eating of flesh on Fridayes Saturdayes Emberdayes Lent Saints eves c. Thus you see this Scripture which you would turne over to Martion and Tatianus doth most fitlie agree vnto and most plainlie describe the Romish Apostasy whether we apply it therevnto or compare this and other scriptures togeather speaking of the same Apostasy and defection By this also may appeare that as you say of Martion and Tatianus that they might be said wholy to fall from the faith somwhat like to Balaam Iudas those apostate Israelites lately spoken of namely for having their cōsciences conuicted and seared with an hote iron So may be said also of the Romish Babylon and her daughters Touching which point see moreover what is said before in the sixt Reason Neyther will your marginall additions nor your new clauses in the Reply it self help eyther you or the Papists any whit They are all as foolish and as contradictorie to the Apostles expresse words as be those which you vsed before So the same answer may serve them all still And whereas in the margent you refer vs to your next Reply follovving thither also do I refer you for aunswer of whatsoever you can there alledge In the meane tyme let the Reader mynd here that both all your marginall notes and such clauses also in this Reply of yours as are now included in a parenthesis be newly added in your printed book and were not before in your written copy which I aunswered Your self belike do now see the folly and insufficiency of your former pretended distinctions and excuses This by the way I thought now to adde by reason of these your new additiōs Now if seeing the evidence of this Scripture so full and plaine against your selves you would therefore except 1 Tim. 4.1.2.3 that in deed in the Romish Church it is so but not in yours of England First by this meanes you should overthrow your owne answer here who have denied it of the popish forbidding of meats and mariage and would turne it over from them to Martion and Tatianus Yea and feare not now againe to give the holy Ghost the lye when you pretend that the very Papists themselves if they erred in nothing els have not their consciences convicted nor seared with an hote iron which yet the Apostle affirmeth expressely of all such 1 Tim. 4.2.3 Secōdlie this would not hinder but that the consequent of the Proposition and the Assumption are good
worship and service of God Vnto these questions and the particulers thereof for the causes aforesaid we desire your direct answer with proofes of your answers from the scriptures According to which word if you speak not as I said before so I say againe Esa 8.20 it is because there is no light in you And now to conclude where you would in the end of your writing being not able to answer our Reasons fasten vpō vs some strange passion yea meere desperatnes for separating from you and answering of you as we have done we refer it to the godly and discreet Reader to iudge by that which hath ben said on both parts whether it bee not your selves that are taken with the strange passion you speake of and driven therevnto by meer desperatnes when for to mainteyne your owne estate you will haue the scriptures to fall and exalt the Church and Magistrate above Christ himself even flesh and blood above God blessed for ever Your practise whereof see before Pag. 28. 91. 100. 105. 135. c. But for this all your vnrighteous dealing against the truth people of God we leaue you to the Lord who searcheth the heart and tryeth the raynes to giue euery man according to his wayes according to the fruite of his workes That is to them that by cōtinuance in weldoing seek glorie honor and immortalitie eternall life But vnto them that are contentious and disobey the trueth obey vnrighteousnes indignation wrath Ier. 17.10 with Rom. 2.6.7.8 H. IACOB his 2. Reply to the 9. Reason IN this your defence of the last Reason you mislike that I say it is a fallacy and you say I shew none Marke what I say Euery one of your Reasons I say every one is a very proper fallacy and an artificiall parte of Sophisterie as by my seuerall answers to them may appeare Your First Reason is called in the scholes Fallacia ab eo quod est secundum quid ad simpliciter prouing a thing to be simply by that which is but after a sort The Second is the very same The Third Fallacia equiuocationis A fallacie of Ambiguity The Fourth is the very same The Fift is petitio principij a begging of the question The Sixth the very same fallacie that was in the First and Second Reasons The Seauenth Eight and Ninth haue all the Fallacy of Equiuocation and if you will the same with that in your First Second and Sixt Reasons also Further where you say that here I graunt you the cause it is very absurd The Apostle 1 Tim. 6.3.4.5 saying separate from such hath a two fould sence Either such as teach otherwise then the trueth fundamentally and then separate wholly Or not fundamentally but erring only in poincts lesse then the foundation and theise diuersely also Either presumptuously obstinately and of a desperate conscience and then if that appeare separate from such wholy Or els erring in simplicitie of ouersight and former preiudice from such separate nor wholly but only from the very error or errors in no wise from their Christian communion and societie seeing theise are true Christians Seing therefore our corruptions of the Praelacy and Ceremonies be of these latter sort which thing hetherto you haue not nor cannot ouerthrowe withall you must vtterly ouerthrowe Mast Cranmer the rest of the Martirs their Christianitie like wise Therefore wee in England by the grace of God are still true Christians you ought so to acknowledge vs as you will answer vnto God All which you may doe yet touch no parte of our Ecclesiasticall corruptions at all to giue allowance vnto them And in all this there is no contradiction with my selfe it is but your distempered conceipt that seemeth contrarie Nither is our absolute departure from the Papists hereby anie whit impeached Wee haue iustlie forsaken them cleane because by their very professiō and doctrine wee canot esteeme them true Christians neither in case of saluatiō while they so remaine but indeed very Antichrists as the scripture proueth Which thing also if you say of vs you say falslie it is our present question and you doe not proue it nor euer can doe As for your 17. poincts of false doctrine which you most falsly lay to our chardge what haue I to doe with them I list not to meddle at this prsent but with that which wee haue in hand◠namely to iustifie that our publike booke of Articles of Religion so farre forth as that it erreth not fundamentally conteyneth sufficient to make a true Christian As it doth not Against the which hetherto you haue brought nothing worth the hearing as we haue seene After you would proue vs to be like those Iewes Act. 19.9 whom Paul separated from But without all good reason They were not so many but they were easily certified of the truth that Paul preached but how infinitly many moe are there in this land that know nothing of this controuersie 2. Secondly Paul was better able to conuince them by the scriptures and did more effectually and apparantly then you doe or can our whole Realme 3. Thirdly how many learned are there in this lande that have many probable seeming reasons alleadge them publish them for the Praelacy against you are vnanswered And yet will you say they are conuicted those infinite others depēding on them I say cōuicted aswell as those Iewes What if these speake euill of that which you hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme Are they all yea all the land therefore abolished from Christ Might not all this at least be sayd of the whole estate of the Iewes in Christes time and after aswell yet they ceased not to bee Churches why then are you so partiall against vs Lastly you would shew Reasons why the Apostles wholy separated not from the Iewes Synagogues after Christ Act. 13.14 c. Which you will in no wise haue to serue vs. But alas for all your Exceptions against vs you haue neuer a reason but one and that is petitio principij That wee were neuer separated from the world nor set in the way order of Christ but in the confusion and defection of Antichrist whose Ministerie c. were neuer the ordinances of God c. This is but crauing the whole question And I haue refuted these quarells in a short writing hereafter following about the comparison of the Ministerie with Mariage which yet you haue no leysure to answer this whole three yeares togeather and vpwarde And further you doe not shew any vtter and apsolute separation from the whole Church of the Iewes a great while after Christ but the contrarie is seene Act. 21.23.24.26 though from some one or two synagogues they separated after full experience of their obstinate malitious resistance of the truth which we deny not Touching the Conclusion In the cōclusion of my former Reply to proue your vtter separation from vs a Paradox
prosperitie in the world yet the godly notwithstanding must learne neither to fret at them nor to faint in themselues but alway to walk faithfullie in the truth and to waite patientlie on the Lord looking for the great harvest of the world At which tyme God will for ever free his people from them all both casting the wicked into a furnace of vnquenchable fyer and making the righteous to shine as the sunne in the kingdome of their Father Mat. 13 37-43 compared with ver 47-50 Rev. 2 20.-26 7 14-17 10.7 11 15-19 14 14-20 17-22 chap. and with the other Scriptures noted before Pag. 158. 159. 173. The second is that besides the false doctrines mentioned before Pag. 157. 158. 159. 160. your Church hath also manie mo Some whereof I have noted in * another Treatise A treatise of the Minist of Engl. pag. 10. 11. 12. 13. to which I refer you for them So as if your list and leysure will serve in your next Reply you may let vs have your defence of them also Or els provide Mr Iacob that you chaunge the Title of your book and call it not anie longer A DEFENCE OF THE CHVRCHES AND MINISTERY OF ENGLAND Now to proceed there followeth next the comparison between you and the Iewes from whom Paul separated Act. 19.9 Act. 19. To which you can not replie a word to anie one thing I aunswered Onelie you bring some new exceptions but not anie of them all worth a rush You might aswell except that Paul was an Apostle and a Iew we not that the people he dealt withall were in Asia you in Europe they at Ephesus you at London c. Such pretences as they are verie common among you so are they most absurd and frivolous not worthy the hearing or anie refutation at all Onelie note that the very Papists themselves may likewise alledge against anie that witnes the truth vnto them yea and do they not dailie thus pretend as you do viz that they be infinitely many mo then Paul had there to do withall 2. That Paul was better able to convince them c. then any such are the whole Popish Church 3. That there be many learned among them which have many probable and seeming reasons c. Where you say there be some of you that have published some reasons for the Prelacy against vs and are vnanswered it is most false Name but one Reason if you can to which we have not given aunswer to the stopping of all your mouths But in deed Mr Iacob you and your fellowes have let the * the Prelates and their proctours insult over you Bancroft Bilson Sutcliff c. with book vpon book and yet aunswer not a word You that ere while cryed out so earnestlie against dumbe dogs are now become dumbe your selves not moving the tounge against anie that writeth for the Hierarchy and leitourgy of Antichrist retained among you But to leave this to your selves to be better mynded hereafter tell me now if it were anie thing to the purpose though that you say here were true By your owne confession the Reasons which are published against vs are but probable and seeming not true and vndoubted And this also seeming so but to you not to vs. What matter then though they were never aunswered by vs Where you aske What if these speak evill of that which we hold for truth but they hold to be errors schisme We aske againe Do not the Papists also say so vnto you Yea and did not the Iewes think you say so vnto Paul Why then are you so partiall against vs But for vs it skils not what you or they think of our cause vnles you speak according to the Law and testimony of God which is far from you Let the Reader also note here the maner of your speach You say that which we hold for truth they hold to be errors schisme They say you as speaking of others not of your self You belike do not so hold it as they do but are perswaded it is truth and not error Why then do you not obey and practise it Why are you become our ennemy for bearing witnes vnto it Why are you so partiall against vs in it Towching the estate of the Iewes Church I shewed three reasons why the Apostles neither did nor might wholy separate from them at first Against which you are not able to open your mouth Pag. 161. Petitio principii whereof you speak is the summe of all your Replies Shew otherwise if you can Do you not everie where beg and no where prove that you are separated from the world set in the way of Christ free from the defection of Antichrist c. So your self are guiltie of that wherewith you charge me falslie all that you say being nothing els but to beg the question and deny the Conclusion As for your short writing about the cōparisō of your Ministery with Mariage I did answer it * above three yeares since But you have not yet replied againe neither I think will in hast In the yeare 1596. When you first acquainted me with the purpose of publishing these things you know besides other things then spoken of I did in particular desier you to publish that aunswer of myne with the rest Therefore you have done me the greater wrong both in leaving it vnprinted and much more in giving out that I have not aunswered you these whole three yeares together and vpward But I perceive you will have your book sutable one part with another and therefore you will end as you ‡ began that is Pag. 5. with lies and vntruths Of that which you annexe of the Iewes Church in Christs tyme and after and of separation from them and communion with them I have alreadie spoken sufficientlie Pag. 161. Neither can you with anie Reason denie or stand against anie thing I have there said as I noted before Tell vs yet I pray you when and how that full experience of obstinate and malitious resistance of the truth whereof you speak may be had and discerned in anie either Ministers or people For your selves you cannot deny but this is your case that you resist and refuse the truth many times and sundrie wayes witnessed vnto you that you rayle and speake evill both of it and of vs that professe it that you persist in the errors and defection of Antichrist that you bereave vs of our lives libertie goods countrie c. And all these because we will not runne with you to the same excesse of impietie Now seing this is the case as your self I think will not denie of your Prelates and manie other of your Priests and people and seing all the rest of you stand with them in one bodie and estate of a Church cleaving vnto them in the same way worship Ministerie c. therefore even in this behalfe can we not possiblie separate from some of you but we must needs