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A96888 A dialogue, arguing that arch-bishops, bishops, curates, neuters, are to be cut-off by the law of God; therefore all these, with their service, are to be castout by the law of the land. Notwithstanding, the world pleads for their own, why some bishops should be spared; the government maintained; the name had in honour still; but the word of God is cleare against all this, for the casting-of-all-forth. The great question is, which way of government now? For two wayes are contended for, The Presbyteriall and Independent: something is said to both these wayes: but we have a sure word for it, that these two wayes are but in shew two, and will assuredly meet in one. Neuters are shewen openly here, and the curse of God upon them. Presented to the Assembly of Divines. Woodward, Ezekias, 1590-1675. 1644 (1644) Wing W3486A; Thomason E34_10; ESTC R22862 54,646 56

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cannot answer that question for the Arch-bishops have not preached these I know not how many yeeres and the Bishope preach in the Lent-time onely and then there is such a throng to heare a Bishop preach that I cannot come within hearing Therefore I can give you no certaine report B. Though you heard not the Bishop yet you heard of his Sermon What heard you A. That the Bishop no sooner named his text but he ran away from it as from an adversary with which he could not agree Indeed the report of the Bishops Sermon is very various and monstrous so inconsistent it is with its selfe and with the text for though the sacred Scripture be constant to its selfe yet the Bishop and his Chaplin for he stood-up often in the Bishops place did mould frame and fashion his Text as you can doe Waxe to the fashion of the time or businesse in hand still turning head upon God and his Word and preaching not the preaching which God said unto him but what best agreed with the work in hand Jonah 3. 2. to make the King absolute and the Bishop an absolute Monarch also So they preached for just as the time served so the text should serve Now he preached-up the Kings Prerogative and preached downe the Subjects Priviledge set the Kings throne above GODS throne and his people below his foote This was the chiefe part of the Sermon as pertinent to the Designe in hand as it was crosse to the text Then Episcopacy must be Asserted by Divine Right The Government in the Church must be Monarchicall as in the Civill state it must be absolute And the better to bring about all this They preached-up Ceremonies Altars A brutish service wil render a people brutish and Organs and the lawfulnesse of the warre with Scotland the pursuing that brother with a sword Peace with Rome but no peace with Scotland What ever was the Text that was the Doctrine and subject matter a great while I pray you doe not aske mee any further account of the Bishops Sermon I can give no more account of it than the sick-man can of his dreames Surely It was so Heterogeneous incongruous Inconsistent with I say not baptized Reason but common reason and Baptizatam rationem sense that in very truth no good report can be made thereof B. I beleeve you and therefore I have done with your eare What reade you A. A very godly booke the Arch-bishops against the Jesuit Fisher wherein there is nothing sure to thrust away the people of GOD from the service of GOD but rather from the service of Rome I am confident of that B. Be not so confident of an Arch-bishops booke for as one said of his loving friend a blow from that hand would never hurt him So you may be confident That the Arch-bishop never intended by that booke to hurt the Pope or his Cause but to promote it heartily I doe assure you that the Arch-bishops intent was so honest so true so heartie towards Rome and so false toward the true Church that had he had as many necks as I reade one man had mouthes no fewer than fiftie they deserve every one to be tr●ssed up about with a rope and yet not a full recompence of reward for his ungodly labour in that booke B. Proceed What reade you A. A very pious booke which has thrust us quite off from Rome has caused a deadly fewd betwixt us and Rome it is called No peace with Rome B. There is such a book indeed but you do reade also that the same man has written That Rome is a true Church have you not read so A. Yes and truly me thought there was a great contrarietie in words such a difference as could never be reconciled No peace with Rome yet Rome a true Church it can never be reconciled thought I. B. Yes that it can though not well distinguish the times and persons and all is reconciled The same man writ both No peace with Rome before he was Bishop Rome a true Church after he was Bishop The one as a Minister of Christ the other as a Minister of Antichrist When he was a Bishop he must write as a Bishop that is the point And he could reconcile all very well he had been unbishopt else and so he put forth a book and called it a Reconciler which caused more than a suspition of the man that he was not a fearfull man onely but a right man a Proctor for Rome a subtill broker for Babylon GOD give him an heart to think of this for surely such a man as he should not have given so just a cause of suspition But proceed What reade you A. Pray you doe not trouble me with that question any more let it suffice to tell you what I know in two words the Bishops books and books licenced by their Chaplines if they may be called books are very many and stand as fully charged against their LORD and the Lords Anoynted as any books in Italy or in the Popes Library can doe B. I le aske you no more What you reade but what doe you see doe you see any thing from the Bishops tending to edification A. Yes if edification be a building and setting-up as I thinke the word doth import I see much tending that way I saw Bishop Wrens Library opened where I saw what doe you call them pretty knacks Images and Crucifixes c. All tending to edification of Romes Church and the Popes leige people B. Have you seene any Altars A. You might as well aske mee whether I have seene any Churches or Chappels or Cathedralls for in every of these places there is an Altar and most eminently seene there there is an ascent to it by degrees and steps as to Solomons Throne Indeed I may answer your question in the words of the LORD According to the number of Thy Cities Jer. 2. of thy Cathedralls thy Chancells thy Chappels are thy Altars thy gods O England B. You have bolted out a Truth here I thinke before you were aware I pray you let us understand our selves and examine whether you have spoke a Truth or no I asked you whether you have seene any Altars You answer mee Yes as many as there be Cathedralls and Chapp●lls and then you called them gods I pray you understand that it is not the Bishops calling wood or stone an Altar or the setting of it like a D●esser-board in your Kitchin Altarwise which makes it an Altar No They may for they are B●shops you may not take a stone a● a stock hew and polish the same then ●avish gold out of the bagg and so adorne it though all this cost and paines be bestowed upon it yet it is not an Altar nor a god yet no nor yet when they have set-it-up as was said Altar-wise like the D●●sser table in your Kitchin yet it is not an Altar nor a god yet But if the great man * Isa 2.
as in the ears of GOD That I have by His good hand on me throughly considered the present Controversie and have desired to take-in as my understanding did supply what I thought could be suggested for the maintaining of the fore-mentioned That I might cast-out all scruples and cleare the minds of the ignorant and weake Christians touching these matters So much to the first Exception A. 2. The next is That I am not to be be heard in this Controversie for I was alwayes a professed enemy to Bishops I answer first B. 1. That I doe not crave Audience let GOD be heard and Truth be heard and I have enough 2. I am an enemy to Bishops Indeed I am and ever was since I understood them and my selfe An enemy to them But no farther than as they are enemies to their LORD CHRIST I le adde and to themselves no farther But because it is an hard matter To walke evenly towards men neither having their persons in Admiration because of Advantage nor contemning them because of some evill they have don against the Church and some cloud of disgrace which has over-cast their pleasant Sun-shine Because of this I shall say a little more That I beare no ill will to any Lord-Bishops person in the world Ill will nay I call GOD to record upon my soule That To lift-up the Arch-Bishops and Lord-Bishops Wren and Pearce nearer to heaven I could fall-downe upon the earth and wallow in the dust there I could behave my selfe for them as for my friend or brother I could bow-downe heavily for them as one that mourneth for his mother I say I can mourne for them That I can doe without an if I cannot pray for them but with an if I le tell you my reason I have heard and from the Pulpit too Julian and Spira coupled together and so concluded from false premisses sure That even Spira whom good-men hope to meet in heaven that Spira sinned as Julian did he fell into that sinne which none but the cleare-sighted man can fall into Ah Lord I sayes any so of Spira What may wee feare touching these Bishops who have played and sported themselves upon the hole of the Aspe and blundred very neare the brim of the darkest dungeon They have fought against GOD at noone-day holding a To●ch in their hand the while and so came-up neare borderers upon them who opposed of malicious wickednesse This is spoken Reader for mightie Reasons The least for to cleare my selfe a friend to the Bishops soules 2 To move all to doe for them as Samuel for Saul mourhe for them * Si non ores gea●as tamen c. Rev. 9. 20 21. 3 And to command our wat●●fulnesse That wee doe not oppose cleare T●uths n●r set our selves against a common light for something is in this The m●n that were not killed with the plagues repented not of the works of their hands that they should not worship Devills and Idolls neither repented they of their mu●thers nor of their sorceries nor of their fornications nor of their theits There is something in this and it is in fight A good warning to us That wee doe not so and so as Arch-Bishops and Lord-Bishops have don And so much to evidence my tenderest respect to their persons and to their soules A. 3. The third exception And what way of Government now These Disciplinaries should have continued the Government of Bishops till they had established another B. That is against the method of Edification The old frame must be taken downe first and the Rubbish cast-out before the new frame can be erected or set-up A. But here are two wayes of Government Argued for which way shall wee poore ones take B. Stay a little and wee will praise God first Tha● when there were so many crosse and contrary wayes of worship and service as contrary as are Christ and Belial the Temple of God and of Idolls These wayes are cleane forsaken now they shall never be trod-in any more And the people of God are pointed unto two wayes so agreeable to the word of God comming-up so neare to the rule and closing with it That the most cleare-sighted-men cannot tell which way comes-up nearest I would wee could praise God for this 2. Let us poore ones be advised here and be wondrous carefull and circumspect That wee doe not goe our owne way for this is an undoubted Truth That it is our owne way which does and will cause all the trouble to the Church and to our selves * Here I could speake great words siō GODS mouth against Master Randall and such like who will goe their own way pleasing in their own eye but abominable in GODS sight 3. Marke wee these that are most querulous here and are readiest to make Objections They are such who would make Divisions amongst us They are children of Belial they would be under no yoak It is their owne way the way of their owne hearts which they contend for and would walke therein And that will cause all the Trouble Note this It is not this way or that way which the people oppose but GODS way and Command which is That every man should looke to his owne way be Judge there * Note That the sacred Scripture wills us not to judge anothers way but our own way 1 Cor. 11. 31. and give account thereof how agreeable it is to the Gospel-way Which giving account wee wickedly call a Shrifting now adayes and will oppose mightily A. But here are two wayes of Government still B. So they say and so it seemes to be and but seemes These two wayes are but like two streames taking severall channells so they run crosse a little time and then fall into the maine againe and keepe one way a direct way for ever * Booke p. 38 40. Three words to him or them who with desire doe desire That the way of worship may be cleared and quickly resolved upon Amen 1 But consider That in the meane time if thy heart be right thou maist order thy selfe and thy house in a Church way the way of holinesse What hinders 2. Thou dost desire pure Ordinances an holy Discipline It is well But is thy heart fit for all this Is it prepared Thou hopest Yes It is well But put it out of question 3. Thou expectest now That the LORD will make great provisions for His servants He is preparing a feast now in His Holy Mountaine for an holy people He is indeed But consider wee what have wee don with all our store that abundance which wee have had specially these foure last yeeres Those soule-quickening Ordinances What have wee don with all that abundance Certainly these were given unto us That wee might have life thereby and have it in abundance Ah Lord I remember now how Chrysostome brings in the Heathen before the Throne of GOD accepting their Judgement from His m●uth b●nding the knee and giving glory to Him that sits thereon yet