Antiquitie we shall make the Church a brothell of filthie and abominable errours which before was a Temple of chaste and vndefiled veritie where as the Church of Christ should bee a diligent keeper of the doctrine deliuered to it changing nothing diminishing nothing adding nothing Now these are the words of Vincentius and I demand of you out of the light of your conscience if you can gaine-say them R. In truth it is a pretie discourse and I embrace all that he hath said as a truth C. Aduise you thâ—n yet what yee wil say for the Church of Rome since it can not bee denied they haue changed diminished and added to the ancient Catholicke faith Some ceremonies and opinions they haue which Antiquitie knewe not some the ancient Church had which they haue pared away and in a word haue so change that in Rome is nothing anciâ—nt but the name R. That seemes very hard For though in some ceremonies there bee adding paring and chaunging yet I can not thinke it is in substance C. You are farre deceiued for they haue made a change in the substance R. Wherein C. In the maine point of saluation as now among many I will shew you by this one What Diuinitie is this to teach people to pray that God would bring them to Heauen by an other blood then Christs blood R. O that can not be C. Nay maruaile not there is the Prayer of their owne Masse booke Tu per Thomae sanguinem quem ille pro te pendit fac nos Christe scandere quò Thomas ascendit R. I haue not heâ—rd of that for my owne part I would bee loath to chaunge the blood of the couenant or to disgrace it so farre as to ioyne any other with it C. The more wise are you for it is by Christs blood Onely that reconciliation is made But what thinke yee of confidence should wee put considence in any but in God R. No truely C. What a Prayer is this theÌ„ Inua ergo omnes gentes In te Sancte confidentes Confessor Armigile And is not Prayer thinke you and Inuocation a speciall point of Gods seruice R. So it is C. Why then is it giuen to Saints and that Psalter which containes Prayers praises to God all turned ouer to the Virgine Marie Should mens traditions to whome God by his heauenly oracle hath not borne testimonie be receiued Pari pietatis affectu reuerentiâ with like deuotion and reuerence as the word of God R. Who sayes that C. The Councell of Trent Should the foure Councels bee receiued as the foure Euangelists or should the Canon Law and decretall Epistles bee receiued as Canonicall Scripture R. I know not what that is C. Then I will tell you Twelue hundreth yeares after Christ Gratian a Benedictine Monke gathered together the sentences of Councels Fathers and Popes concerning sundrie matters of Religion and set it forth which is commonly called Decretum and after him certain Popes as Gregory the ninth Boniface the eight Clemens the fift Iohn the twentie two following the example of Gratian haue gathered the like These are called Decretals and Extrauagants added to Decretum all of them make vp the Canon law which now must bee equalled with the word and all to bee receiued as if Peter his owne mouth had pronounced them Is not this against the golden rule of Vincentius to mixe noueltie with Antiquitie What say you to it R. In truth I can not iudge of that which I know not C. I will giue you but one Decrete of this law and let you see how it strikes the Apostle S. Paul in the teeth that by it you may iudge of the rest Secundam accipere vxorem secundùm Apostoli praeceptum licitum est secundum autem veritatis rationem verè fornicatio est Second marriage â—ccording to the Apostles precept is lawful but according to the truth of reason is plaine fornication I am not now to dispute whether Church-men may Marrie or not themselues grant it is not forbidden neither by Legall nor Apostolicall authoritie yet they will forbid it But what Diuinitie is this According to the Apostles precept it is lawfull to Marrie but according to truth and reason it is Whoredome that is as they would saye according to the word of God in the Bible it is true but according to the word of God in the Canon Law written twelue hundreth yeares after Christ it is false Did the Apostle giue any precept without reason or truth How dare they call that vnlawfull which the Apostle cals lawfull Wâ—e be to them who call good euill You hold silence at these things and no maruaile for I thinke no honest man can approoue them But to return to things of great importance I assure you the onely question and controuersie in Religion this day may be taken vp in this question Is Iesus the Sonne of Mary the Christ Or as the Baptist takes it vp Art thou hee who is come or shall wee looke for an other R. I thinke no man will denie that C. Yea the Turke and Pagane say such Christ as Christians beleeue is neither come nor wil come the Iewes say hee is not come but hee will come The Catholicke Romane in word confesseth him but in deede denies him Quem praedicant impugnant both in his Person and Offices R. That is a strange assertion such as I haue not heard C. It is strange indeede and I would wee had no cause to charge them with it but beecause it is the most weightie point whereof yet wâ— haue spoken wee will referre it to bee handled in a meeter time R. I am content prouiding you forget not to make that good which you haue said C. If I forget I pray remember me And now this Dispute about Antiquitie I conclude with IGNATIVS Mihi antiquitas est Iesus Christus cui non obedire manifestus est irremissibilis interitus Epist. ad Philadelphos My Antiquitie is Iesus Christ to disobey him is manifest and remedilesse destruction and with that which Aâ—gustine said to the Pelagians Quia isti disserunt disputant nescio quas impias nouitates etiam nos conantur arguere quòd aliquod nouum dicamus Because these fâ—llowes maintaine certaine impious nouelties they also goe about to charge vs as if wee did teach any new thing But of this if you please you shall heare more R. It pleaseth me very well I shall attend your comming if you may at seuen howres C. Let it be so THE SECOND DAYES CONFERENCE Concerning the Antiquitie of the Church of SCOTLAND and how the Church of ROME in her best estate was but a sister not a mother Church vnto it C. WHat say you to day Sir haue you considered the points of our last conference R. Yea I haue beene as I may thinking vpon them C. What Is not your heart mooued to come to vs R. I find it mooued but not remooued from the Church
thinke it goes very hard with them when their best Doctors can say no more in defence of Rome but it was Babel or it will be Babel that is either Antichrist sate there or will sett there C. I hope you shall thinke much more before you goe for now I will improue their distinction and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours nor the Towne of Rome in the last time of the World that here is called Babel but the whorish Church of Rome gouerned by Apostated Popes R. Make that cleare and the cause is wonne Babel in the Reuelation is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours but Rome once Christian now corrupted vnder Popes C. It is euident S. Iohn prophecies of the state of Rome as it will bee in the dayes of Antichrist so sayes the Iesuite Viega Haec est quarta visio huius operis eaque illustrissima ad Antichristi tempora pertinens So also sayes the Iesuite Ribera a ca. 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda iota ad Antichristum eiusque tempora pertinet But the dayes of persecuting Emperours were not the dayes of Antichrist if they so say they destroy all their owne doctrine concerning Antichrist and therefore this prophecie of Babel is not to bee vnderstood of the Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours Secondly Ethnicke Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospell and was not married with Christ and therefore cannot be this Whore which Carthusian their owne man expounds to be An adulterous Whore You shall finde no people in holy Scripture charged with spirituall Whoredom but such as haue beene married with Christ none can bee Apostates from the faith who neuer stoode in the faith there must bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This whoorish Babel then can not be Ethnicke Rome vnmarried with Christ. Seeing themselues doe grant it is Rome it must bee Rome once Christian but now corrupted once Apostolicke standing in the faith now Apostatiâ—ke fallen from the faith Thirdly this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of abominations and the filthines of her fornicationâ— wherewith shee makes drunken the inhabitants of the earth By this golden cup Berengandus their owne man vnderstands Documenta erroribus plena And so this Babel can not signifie Rome vnder Emperors who subdued the world by force of Sword and plaine violence but must signifie Rome vnder Popes which hath deceiued the world by false doctrine and lying myracles Fourthly this Babel is called the mother of Whoredomes and abominations in the earth which not onely her selfe hath played the Whoore corrupting the true worship of God but hath inforced her corruptions and superstitions vpon othâ—rs Now it is knowne that olde Rome sought no more but subiection of bodies leauing the consciences of people free to any kind of worshippe they pleased They subdued the Iewes and forced them to pay tribute but left them to their owne Religion yea so farre were they from inforcing their superstitious worship vpon any nation that by the contrarie themselues were infected with the superstitions of all nations as is euident by their Pantheon which they erected in the honour of all Gods And so it is not Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours which heere is called the Mother of whoredomes Fiftly the name of this Babel is mysterium in quo aliud cernitur aliud intelligitur Quia enim tot simulatis virtutibus decoratur non omnibus mulieris huius prauatas innotescet sed viris iusâ—is prudentibus So then by this Babel some mysticall enemie is vnderstood being indeede an enemie but in shew pretending friendship and therfore called afterward Gog and not Magog that is not an open and plain enemy as is the Turke But Gog a couered enemie for this cause figured also before by a beast with two hornes looking like a Lambe but speaking like the Dragon To this purpose sayes IEROME Simulabit se ducem faederis And Hilarius that Antichrist shall bee contrarie to Christ vnder a â—orme of fained and hypocriticall godlinesse And Chrysostome Antichrist must bee knowne by his doctrine not by his titles miracles nor words of godlinesse And therefore it is a silly defence of the Iesuites The Pope say they prayers humbly to God and calles himselfe seruus seruorum Dei therefore is not an aduersarie for the Question is not what he calles himsâ—lfe but what hee is But to hold vpon this point it is euident by what which I haue said that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnicke nor yet Rome which at the last shall rebell for both these are open enemies but Rome vnder Popes a mysticall enemie Sixthly in this Reuelation there are two women described the one Chap. 12. clothed with the Sunne which is CHRIST hauing on her head twelue Starres for a Garland the glorie of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelue Apostles and vnder her feete the Moone figuring this mutable world This woman as themselues confesse represents the true Church The other woman described Chap. 17. is arayed in Purple Scarlet Gold and precious stones voide of inward beautie and chastitie shee sets forth her selfe with all externall brauerie that shee may drawe many louers to her Now I say seeing the first woman signifies the true Church as themselues confesse and afterward is called the Lâ—mbes wife why doe they not â—ee that this whorish woman must signifie the false Church And since they grant that Babel is Rome what else can the whoore of Babel be but the whoorish Church of Rome And therefore their owne Doctours expounding that prophecie of Saint Iohn Babel is fallen and become an habitation of diâ—els Ribera expounds it of an externall desolation accâ—rding to that of â—say prophâ—cied of the first Babel The â—im and Zâ—m shall leape there But Viega Nobis etiam illud dicendum viâ—etur cum Arethâ Primasio Ambrosio Ansberto Haimone idololatriam eius vrbis significari desecturamque esse Romam a fide atque adcò futuram esse habitationem daemoniorum ob execranda slagitia iâ—olotriae superstitioneÌ„ expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith which hee sayes is a thing which will be but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already the foretold defection is come Antichrist that man of sinne is discouered God by the breath of his mouth is dayly consuming him THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist C. GOod morrow Sir how doe you to day R. The best I can C. It is most like you haue not rested well this night R. To say the truth Thinking on our conference made my rest the lesse C. It agrees but ill with you to heare the Church of Rome conuicted of Apostasie R. I thinke so indeede and still will so thinke till ye resolue this question what is the cause there being so many VVise and Learned men in the Popes Church that they cannot see
from the Sonne R. Yea I see that and it is good reason C. Then if you will come and heare what the Son saies you shal see that as the Father sends vs to the Sonne so the Sonne sends vs to the Scriptures if we would haue eternall life search the Scriptures and he witnesseth plainely Iohn 17.8 The wordes which thou gauest mee I gaue them meaning to his Disciples Where againe if you looke to the Disciples words The Scripture sayes Saint Paul is able to make the man of God perfect and therefore hee protests Act. 20 that he taught nothing but Moses and the Prophets and yet that hee had deliuered to them the whole counsell of God See you what a comfortable harmonie is here The Father bids vs heare the Sonne the Sonne protests the wordes the Father gaue him hee gaue to his Disciples and both of them sends vs to the Scripture as conteining the whole counsell of God concerning our Saluation R. I see all that clearly C. Then what spirit are they led with that dare say It had beene good for the Church the Scripture had neuer beene R. Who dare say that C. I haue heard with mine eares defenders of Papistrie say it and the positions of their owne Doctors no lesse blasphemous are extant to bee seene Lectio Scripturae non â—antùm est invtilis sed pernitio samultis modis the reading of Holy Scripture is not only vnprofitable but pernicious And therefore they wil not let the people read nor serch the Scripture though Christ commanded so to doâ— and instoade of Scripture they intrude on the Church their owne decrees and other traditions which they make of equal authoritie with the Scripture Thus you see how they take away Christs Propheticall office Now to come to his Priestly office you know the Priests office was twofold first hee ought to sacrifice for the people next to pray for them R. And they acknowledge both these that Christ hath offered himselfe in a propitiatory sacrifice for our sinnes and that hee still makes intercession for vâ— in heauen C. I but they so acknowledge it that in both these offices they ioyne others with Christ and so make him not a full and perfect Sauiour of his people by himselfe but a halfe-Sauiour in part R. I vnterstand not that C. I shall make it cleare to you There is the testimony of thâ— Word concerning the sufficiency of the merite of Christs bloud The bloud of Christ his sonne clenseth vs from all sinne R. They will not be against that C. But they are when they make this distinction that principally Christs bloud clenseth from sinne but secondarily there must be other things with it to clensâ— sinne as works of satisfaction in this life and fire of Purgatorie in the life to come By these also according to their ownâ— doctrine sinne is clensed R. For my own part I would alwaies reserue to Christ his owne glorie which I know hee will not giue to any other C. You haue reason for you and you shall thinke it so much the more if you consider with me these two testimonies R. What are those C. The first is Heb. 1.3 That Christ by himselfe hath made purgation of our sinnes R. What will you gather of that place C. A most necessary obseruation for clearing this controuersie to wit that the purging power of sinne is personâ—ll to Christ he hath done it by himselfe the vertue and benefâ—â— of iâ— hee communicates to others that repent and belieue bouâ—â—e meriting power by which God is reconciled and his iustâ—câ— satisfied he transfers not nâ—ither to any mans person nor any other thing beside R. Surely according to my vnderstanding that is a truth wherin euery Christian should rest for it is most comfortable to the conscience since wee are not â—blâ— neithâ—r in whole nor in part to satisfie for our owne sinnes C. It is so indeed and that you may bee the more confirmed will you looke how the Iesuites who 〈◊〉 the light because it conuinceth them of darkenesse inâ—translating this place leaue out tâ—is word By him selfâ— they say he makes purgation of sinnes but passe by this word by himself looke you their owne translation R. I seâ— indâ—ed they haue it not â—n their traâ—slation but is it I pray you in the Greeke text C. Yea forsooth if you can read it these are the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 R. In truth this one place makes all their doctrine concerning the supplement of Christs merits iustly to be suspected for since he hath made the purgation of our sinnes by himselfe what should we looke that they are to bee purged by any other C. You reason well R. I speake as I think it is either pittiful ignoraÌ„ce that they see not the truth or their wilful malice that they dare mutilate so cleare a place of holy Scripture leauing it out of their Bible because it â—akes against tâ—eÌ„ C. But now take in with this the other testimony of holy Scripture whereof I spake you haue it Heb. 7. ver 25. Christ is able to saue perfectly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all that come vnto God by him R. I see that is also a comfortable place C. So it is indeed for as the first makes you see that Christs meriting power is personall in himselfe not transfâ—rred to any other so this makes you see it is perfect hee hath done the worke of our saluation in his owne person and hee hath done it perfectly What more can you craue R. Truly I craue no more C. Away then with these rotten dregges of Papistrie that teach vs to depend vpon other merites vpon an other bloud as I shewed you the first day besides the merits of the bloud of Christ. R. For my own part I think neuer to leane to them but will rest vpon that onely perfect sacrifice of Christ offered on the Crosse for my sinnes C. If you abide there you are vpon the sure foundation and remember you must renounce all other sacrifices which derogate from the perfection sufficiency of that one sacrifice of Christ. R. I will indeed C. Then for your confirmation marke these places Christ in the end of the world hath appeared once to put away sinne by the sacrifâ—â—e of himselfe Heb. 9.26 Christ was once offered to take away the sins of many Heb. 9.28 Wee are sanctified by the offering of the body of Iesus Christ once Heb. 10.10 This man after he had offered one sacrifice for sinnes sits foreuer at the right hand of God Heb. 10.12 With one offering hath he â—onsecrated for euer them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 where remission of sinnes is there is no more offering for sin Heb. 10.18 Christ needed not daily as these high Priests to offer vp sacrifice first for his owne sinnes and then for the peoples for that did hee once when he offered vp himselfe Heb. 7.27 without shedding of blood is no remission Heb. 9.22 Perceiue you not
true indeed for if a man wil goe to a Papists church to heare Masse he shall not discerne what the Priest sayes vnlesse he vuderstand Latine and I haue many times thought strange of it C. But it falles out very well that so it should bee The first Babel for her proud vsurpation was punished with confusion of Languages that when the builder spake the people knew not what he craued and iustly is the like Yea a worse plague in so much as it is Spirituall powred out vpon new Babel for her intollerable presumption that when their Priest speakes the people wots not what he sayes R. In truth it is a great blindnesse C. And so yee may say for albeit they had no cleare Diuine warrant in the Word yet considering that God by an extraordinary decree declared his will to themselues it is strange they should not giue place vnto it R. Where haue you that C. I find it in Aenâ—as Siluius their owne man that when the Slauonians sought licence from Pope Formosus that they might celebrâ—te Diuine Seruice in their owne mother tongue the matter being disputed in the Popes Counsell a voice was heard from Heauen saying Omnis spiritus laudet Deum omnis lingua confiteatur illi Let euerie Spirit praise the Lord and all tongues confesse him Wherevpon at that time that benefit was granted to the Slauonians but thinke yee it not strange that it should bee denied to other people R. I thinke so indeed specially since the Lord hath declared his will so plainely both in his word and in that extraordinariâ— reuelation But wee must let this alone for there comes the Preacher And now I pray you tell mee how I should behaue my selfe C. Trouble you not doe aâ— you see others beside you for first he will conceiuâ— a Prayâ—r at the which the people humbles themselues thereafter he reads his Text of Holy Scripture this the people heare with reuereÌ„ce then hee falles to the preaching which some heare with their heads couered some otherwise in that you may doe as your health requires the preaching being ended hee concludes all with a thanksgiuing after which there is a Psalme sung by the whole Congregation and then the Minister blesseth the people in the name of the Lord and so dimits them you will see no other thing here R. Well I shal obserue it the best I can C. Now what thinke of it R. In truth I think it a most comely and comfortable order and I thanke God it is the best Sabbath day that euer I saw C. Considered you his Text and how he opened it vp R. Yea I haue Saint Paul in it makes mâ—ntion of his owne conuersion and how he was receiuâ—d to mercy by Christ Iesus of whom he witnesseth hâ— came into the World to saue sinners C. You heard him there declare how the elect Children of God before their calling differ not in maners from reprobates but when gracâ— comes it makes the difference and causeth them to say with the Apostle I was a blasphemer a persecutor an Idolater c. but now thankes to God I am not so R. I heard it verie well and from my heart I also giue thankes to God who hath receiued mee to his mercie for I was plunged in the darkenesse of Idolatrie beside many other filthie sinnes which oppressed mee but the Lord hath deliuered mee from them all blessed be God for it And I thanke you my deare Brother who hath been an instrument of his grace toward me C. Nay Sir all thankes and praise bee vnto the Lord hee seekes and saues that which was lost he reduceth his own from their wandrings and giues life to them who were dead FINIS Strom. 5. Gen. 14.13 Gen. 21.22 2. Chron. 13 Prâ—u 4.8 Naziâ—n ad 〈◊〉 â—piâ—â— 8 Pisidae 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Act. 24.14 Quest. 119 Cap. 10. Dist. 19. ca. Si Româ—norum in Canoniciâ— Caus. 26. quaest 2. Caus. 31. quâ—st 1. Causa 26. Quest. 2. De verb. Aposâ— ser. 14. Cent. 2. c. 2. Auentinus in Annal. Boiorum Sabel Ennâ—aâ— 7. li. 4. Clem. lib. 1. Recognitionum Lib. 3. Cap. 1. 3. Cen. Lib. 1. Cap. 10. Baron Annales Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. Holius Aduâ—rsus Iâ—daeos cap. 7.8 â—aron annal anno Christi 183 Sect. 6. Cenâ—ur â— cap. 2. Ceâ—t 3. cap. 3. Hom. 4. in Ezech. Ad Euagrium Holius Pag. 87. Histor. Britan lib. 8. cap. 4. Cent. 2. Cap. 2. Cent. 6. li. 5. cap. 17. Riber in Apoc. 14. Viega in Apoca. De Pont. Rom. lib. 2. cap. 2. In Apo. 14. In siâ—e cap. 18. In Apocal. 14. Carthus In Daniel 11. In Matth. Hom. 49. Cap. 13. 1. Cor. 1.26 Titus 3.3 Chrâ—soâ—tâ—â— 2. Thes. 2. hem 4. Extrau Ioh. 22. cap. Cum inter c. Dist. 40. cap. Si Papae c. Dist. â—0 ca. Non nos in glosa c. Causa 25. quast â— ca. Ideo c. Summa Angelica de casibus Con. scientiae Dâ—â—it Papa Disâ— 99. ca. Ecce c. Oraculorum â—ap 8. Ibid. Epist. 3. Rhemists Reuel 12. Râ—â— cap. 27. Zâ—ch 1. Durand lib. 6. cap. de alijs ieiuâ—ijs Cont. Epist. Parmeâ— l. 2. cap. 8 Psal. 50.15 Rom. 8. Gab. Biel. in Cau. Miss â—ect 56. Grat. Caus. 1â— 4 glossa Simanâ—hâ— Pacens EpÌ„iscâ—pus Institut Gregor 13. 1. Cor. 7.13 Câ—rd Alan Simanâ—ha Epâ—s Pacens Instit. Cathol lib. 46. â—er 74. Caus. â—3 Quaesi 8. Bellar. lib. 5. de â—om Poâ—tiâ— cap. 6.7 4. Apol. ad Anton. Ad Antioch Lib. ad Scaâ—ul Tertul. Apolog câ—p â—8 29. 30. Apol. 2. ad Anton. Piâ—m imperat Hist. Bohem. Cap. 13.