it as a Pillar c. Now Sir The Minor is evidently false the very naming of it is Confutation sufficient it being evident to behold that the Parishes of this Nation have always been and still are inclinable to whatsoever their Teachers and Rulers set up without ever questioning the truth of it except here and there a man which is nothing to our question it being of the Parishes generally Look upon them in the time of Popery and produce one Parish-Church much less all that opposed the power of the Pope but all inclinable to that wicked worship so in the time of Prelacy how conformable to that never once talking then of Presbytery and I believe as formerlâ— so now if the power of this Nation should enact that al should turn Independents they would obey without any general opposition and within this few years would as little think of Presbytery which you think to be truth now as they did then when he was Counted an Hereticke that believed not as the Church believed Which was then the scarlet-coloured whore of Rome and yet you let not to say they have been the Pillar of Truth defending it against all Errors which if true Presbytery is false in that the Parishes of this Nation have born Testimony to two contrary Religions Popery and Prelacy That Church that one time professeth Popery and another while Prelacy being variable according to the times in which she lives that Church is not the Pillar and ground of truth But the Parishes of this Nation have one while c. Ergo and for Revel 2. 13. When you have proved the Parishes of this Nation Pergamus I will Consider of it I know no advantage I should have gotten if the word Reply Dr. B. Church had been permitted to stand instead of Parishes but rather disadvantage because a National Church is as liable if not more to exception nor can I imagine how this could have hidden the folly of my Argument its folly to pick a quarrell the Church is nothing els but the Parishes or if you will that is the Mother these the daughters the Minor proposition which you deny will appear evident enough by considering the Apostles meaning of Pillar and Ground of Truth and applying it to our Assemblies both which I will do in few words The House or Church of God is so call'd in respect of the profession and maintenance of the true Religion of God which it both supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others as Magistrates use to hang and affix their Edicts and Proclamations on pillars or other places of strength and firmness and here consequently is declared the Office and duty of the Church in holding and publishing the Truth and defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions and whatsoever Societies do this it s written upon those Societies with a Sun beam that they are the true Churches of Christ Now it s notoriously known that the Articles of Religion agreed upon Anno 1562. are published and consented to by all the See the answer of the Elders of the several Churches of New England to the ninth Question p. 26. and Church Covenant p. 40. Ministers endowed in every Congregation of this Nation with the silent consent also of the People and subscription of the hands of the chief of them wherein they do acknowledge no rule of Faith or Manners but the holy Scriptures no divine worship but to God only no Mediation nor Salvation but in Christ only no Conversion by Mans free will but by Gods free grace no Justification but by Faith no perfection nor merit of works with all other necessary and saving truths upon which the Church is grounded and built and which also it holdeth forth and maintaineth This alone abundantly evinceth that the Parishes of this Nation are the Pillar and ground of Truth Besides these truths are daily in most Congregations faithfully opened and applyed and whatsoever is contrary thereunto on the right hand or left convincingly confuted our Parishes therefore keeping Gods Records faithfully are his Registers and consequently his true Churches Your declaiming against the inclinableness of our People to alter with their Governors might have been spared well knowing it was the practice of the Church of Israel to do so and the Churches of Galatia how soon were they removed from him that called them into the Grace of Christ unto another Gospell to the admiration of the Apostle Galat. 1. 6. And therefore it needs be no marvell if our people so easily change from one Church-Goverment to another which they may do without prejudice to fundamental verity which though the Galathians overthrew yet they remained true Churches If you read the Epistle of Christ to Pergamus understandingly and compare our Church with that you will find that we are not worse and wherein any in that Church were praise-worthy for doing or suffering you may find some in ours not short of them From our practice agreeing with the practice of the Primitive Arg. 7. Dr. B. Apostolical Churches Those Societies that continue stedfast in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and in Prayer are true Churches Acts 2. 42. but so do ours Ergo. I deny your Minor and the reason why we separate from you is upon Answ J. O. that ground you have added neither Scripture nor Reason to prove your Minor but have left it destitute of all proof you could hardly have brought a Scripture in all the Bible which in every thing both in doctrine and practice makes so directly against you as this that you have brought for you For first your doctrine is contrary secondly so is your practice for doctrine first after that Peter had preacht the Lord Christ to these men it working upon their hearts ver 37. they cryed out What shall we do the doctrine of the Apostle to them ver 38. is Repent and be Baptized and so they were ver 41. they were the same day added to the Church but you both Ministers and People go directly contrary first Baptize them at three or four dayes old and so make them members of your Church and perhaps twenty or forty years after preach Repentance just contrary to the Apostles doctrine and Gods examples 1 King 6. 7. Ephes 2. 21 22. 1 Pet. 2. 5. First you take into your house unhued stones and unsquared timber and twenty or forty years after fall to squaring them for the building Now for your practice in your fellowship the powerfull operation of the Gospell of Jesus Christ after it had workt them from the world and from themselves and one into another in the unity of the Spirit as one man it is said ver 44 45. and all that believed were together had all things common and sold their possessions c. And chap. 4. 32 34 35. and the multitude of believers were of one heart and one soul neither said any of them that ought that he possessed was
Psal 63. 1 2. You deny my Minor with the same limitation as you granted the Major God dwels not you say in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church I will to gratify and if it be possible to convince you make good that Christ dwels in the Parishes of this Nation as a Church by those three Reasons evidencing his presence amongst us For the fortifying whereof I was sparing in bringing Scripture-proof or farther reason not because I had not store of both but because I judged it needless to light a Candle to the Sun but seeing you tax me for bare Asserting you shall see me strongly Confirming each of the Reasons taking in your own restriction First I prove the Faithfull Constant Preaching of the Word to be a note of Christs presence with a people as a Church Deus 4. 7 8. So nigh unto them this speciall neerness of God is proved because they had the Law set before them i. e. fixed among them Psal 147. 19 20. By Word he means his will revealed in the Scriptures given to his Church as a most precious and peculiar treasure Zech. 8. 23. The reason why the Gentiles should joyn themselves to the Jews is because the Word was with them we have heard by your Preaching this was the great and glorious prerogative of the Jews which afterward they lost and as soon as they lost it ceased to be a Church Acts 13. 46. the Apostle witnesseth this to be the greatest privilege the Jews had Rom. 3. 1 2. If this be a peculiar privilege to the Church of God to have a standing fixed preaching of the Word among them and if no People in the world can be named that had this ordinance of preaching which were not Gods Church then this is a sure sign Secondly it appears that his working saving Grace by this Ordinance is as a sure sign 1 Cor. 14. 24 25. he will report that God is in you as a Church of a truth John 4. 22. Christ proves the Jewes to be a true Church Because Salvation might be had there out of the Church there is no salvation ordinarily If you can shew that Christ is present to Convert c. in any Societie where his word is faithfully and constantly Preached that is not his Church this Reason shall stand for invalid Thirdly the meeting mentioned Matth. 18. you deny not to be a Church-meeting therefore where a Societie meet to worship God by Prayer as you expound it or for the Administration of Church Censures as the place carries it there Christ is present as his Church Now that the Word is faithfully and constantly Preached in our Assemblyes and that Christ Converts c. by our Preaching and that our People meet together to pray in his Name is manifest to all the world that we have idle ignorant Ministers in many Congregations and a great multitude that want the power of Godliness among us c. is acknowledged but it s well known as bad of both sorts were in the Church of the Jewes and in the Apostolicall Churches which notwithstanding remained true Churches while he continued his presence and they met and joyned in his true worship till God gave them a bill of divorce and withdrew his presence and they cast off Gods true worship through obstinacie Those Assemblies that are built upon the Foundation of the Arg. 5. Prophets and Apostles are true Churches Ephes 2. 19 20. But ours are so built for they have the whole Doctrine of the Old Dr. B. and New Testament for the infallible and immoveable ground of their Faith whereby they subsist in Church-Communion I deny you Minor What you mean by these words they have Answ J. O. the whole Doctrine c. is doubtfull if by having of it you mean Christ hath left this Old and New Testament in the world for the immoveable ground of mens Faith that 's true but nothing to the purpose for if so it 's left to all men and many men may also beleeve it to be so and yet be so far from being built upon it as they walk and build directly from it If you mean that they have it in the practise of it so as they practically build upon it that 's false for such Persons are built upon it as the Apostle holds out in that Chapter such who were dead but now alive saved by Grace such who were made to sit in heavenly places in Christ Now the greater part of the men in your Parishes are such as were never spiritually alive lying in their sins still unquickned therefore they are not built upon that Foundation practically When I say our Assemblies are built upon Propheticall and Apostolicall Reply Doctrine I mean there is no other Doctrine taught or own'd with us but what hath warrant from the Old and New Testament Dr. B. if there be shew it now that hence it followes we are therefore Gods true Church is apparent from the Apostles Scope proving the Ephesians to be the Houshold of God because they were so built for that by building is meant Owning and Confessing the truth I prove from that of our Saviour Mat. 16. 18. nor can you shew any Society Confessing the whole truth of God that was not a true Church The want of Practise which you allege in the greatest part of our Members weakens not at all the force of the Argument for the very same is taxed by our Saviour in the Church of Sardis Rev. 3. 1. Thou hast a name to live and art dead the generalitie of the members of that Church were voyd oâ— Grace and ungodly men and yet Christ owns it for his Church in the beginning of that verse and how far the Church of Corinth and other Gospell Churches were from being built practically in your sense you have heard sufficiently and yet blessed be God we have in our Parochiall Churches a competent number of practicall Christians that walk exactly according to the rule of the Gospell for whose sakes if you had the Spirit of Christ you would I suppose acknowlege our whole Societies to be his visible Churches That Church that is the pillar and ground of truth is the true Arg. 6. Church 1 Tim. 3. 15. but so is the Church of England in respect of the profession and maintenance of true Religion which it both Dr. B. supporteth as a Pillar and maketh it openly known to others defending it against all Errors Contradictions and Corruptions whatsoever Revel 2. 13. You subtilly alter the termes of the question that the folly of your Argument may not appear instead of these words the Parishes of this Nation you say the Church of England which you ought not to have done the Argument from these words if it include the Question must proceed thus That Church which is the Pillar and ground of Truth is a true Church but so are the Parishes of this Nation in their maintaining and professing true Religion supporting
before his Incarnation you will find that our Congregations walk in the steps of Abraham of his Faith as in other things so particularly in this which I look you will storm at that they bring their Infant-Children to the sign of initiation appointed for the Church in the administration under which they live of the Faith of Moses and all the Prophets following their doctrine and pious practice too If you say most of our People deny the power of Religion I answer more of the Church of Israel did so 2. Look upon the Flock after Christ and you will find ours follow their steps both for doctrine and discipline the former none denyes and the substantials of the later we had even in the Bishops reign as Learned and Godly Mr. Hilderson hath made good against the Brownists and for that which is styled the Presbyteriâ—n Government if you read without prejudice the Jus divinum Regiminis Ecclesiastici you will find proof sufficient that That layes truest Claim to divine right and they that embrace and follow it walk in the steps of Christs Antient Apostolical flock Your common Allegation against this viz. That our Members are not Baptized Believers and therefore we walk not in the steps of the Antient Flock is notoriously false For first that our Members are Believers and many of them Real ones you will not deny Secondly and that they were all Baptized in their Infancy you will acknowledge at least they had water applyed to them in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost which is the right form of Baptism All that you do or can object is that they were not a fit subject of Baptism but our Saviours Words in his Commission according to your own interpretation of them confute you for Infants are a part of a discipled Nation yea they are Disciples Acts 15. 10. holy 1 Cor. 7. 14. and Church-members as learned Mr. Baxter hath proved by 27. Arguments and by denying Infants of Believers to be a fit subject of Baptism you deny as was lately shewed that Christ is come in the Flesh For if he be come certainly the Church is no loser but a gainer by his coming but by denying to Believers Infants this privilege the Church is a loser by his coming The tenth Argument shall be ad hominem and an additional to a branch of the second If your societies be true Churches then so are ours but the former is true Ergo the latter The consequence is only to be made good If all that 's good in your Churches you had it from ours both persons and things then the Consequence is certain Because nihil dat quod non babet but all that 's good in yours c. Two thing make persons good First Profession of the true Faith Secondly Correspondent piety the former of these you have all along yielded the latter likewise you have granted our best members have but the best of them you must acknowledge you have gained from us for as much as immediatly upon their departing us you Baptize them which argues they are fit matter for your Church 1. The Consequence of the first and also second Syllogism framed Answ J. O. to prove the fiâ—st is false For we might constitute our Churches of such matter as we gained from you and yet ours true and yours false because ours was constituted of such matter as appeared all good and yours was constituted of such as was for the greatest part bad For though it be most true that nothing gives that it hath not yet it is also as true that something may be gained from another that the loser retains not An Army of Souldiers may consist of honest men and wicked and the honest may be gained from the wicked and now upon your Consequence the wicked may prove themselves as good as the honest thus if all that 's good in you you had from us then if you be honest we are honest But all that 's good in you you had from us Ergo if you be honest we are honest If this Consequence be true viz. That if all that 's good in one Church they had in another then if one be true so is the other I will upon your own principles prove Rome a true Church Thus If you be true Churches Rome is true but the former is true Ergo. The Consequence is only to be made good if all that 's good in the Parishes of this Nation you had from Rome both persons and things then the Consequence is certain because Nihil daâ— quod non habet but all that 's good in yours c. The Consequence is your own the Minor is evident that you both persons and Ordinances came from Rome and thus you may see what your Logick helps you to Now let 's see upon this Consequence which way you can prove your selves true and Rome false and I am confident if you speak to the purpose you will answer for me against your self But if by these words had from ours you should say you mean not only to have a Companie out but to have them made good and fitted by those from whence they be taken if thu be your meaning then the Minor of your second Syllogism is contrarie to your self for sure you never fit men to say that your Ministrie is false your Church and Ordinances false and that ours is true and that they ought to Separate from you and come to us if not they were not fitted by you for us for thus they come to us Thus the Consequence of your Argument carries with it no Concluding force and the Conclusion falls to the ground for if all that 's good in us dia come from you as it doth not Yet we might be true and you false But secondly I deny your Minor viz. That all that 's good in us came from you Two things you say make persons good profession of the true Faith and Correspondant prety the former I yielded the latter granted I Answer I never granted any such thing I have granted and still do that there may be some in the Parochial Assemblies that may be godly People but that they be professors of the true Faith as it is fully banded out in the Gospell I have alwais denied So not yielding the former not granting the latter Our Baptizing them immediatly at their departure you say argues we judge them fit matter c. I answer It 's not true we Baptize them not Immediatly at their departing you but upon considerable time of triall as may be convenient to judge that their Conversations together with their principles in owning of ours and disowning of yours and all others so far as they be contrary to truth is reall Next you say for things the pure word and Sacraments rightly Dr. B. administred they had in our Church you will not I know object want of discipline because you teach that not to be necessarie to the being of a Church If it
its proper place where I shall have occasion to vindicate the truth of those Churches which you deny to be true The summe of your Answer is st fir by way of Concession that all the Churches mentioned by me which are all the known Churches Reply Dr. B. in the world own and acknowledge our Parochial Assemblies to be true Churches this savours of Ingenuity 2. By way of Exception against the validity of the Testimony of these Churches because they are the same for Matter and Formwith ours according to the Proverb ask my Brother if I be a Thief this seems to savour of Arrogancy The Testimony of two or three men was wont to be taken for truth by Warrant both of Law and Gospel John 8. 17. Mat. 18. 16. 2 Cor. 13. 1. Heb. 10. 28. Now put the Case you were accused of these or two known Enemies by one were able to bring the Testimony of two hundred honest men to assert your Integrity I presume you would not take it well that their witness should be slighted upon no other ground but this because they consisted of the same Matter and Form with you It is just our Case a very inconsiderable number for so are all the Anti-paedo-Baptistical societies Comparatively and our profest Adversaries draw up a Charge against us that we are false Churches we being for Justification of our truth more then a million of men approved unto God and all good men in whose Approbation we do yea and will rejoyce because we beleeve and are sure that they are the true Churches of Christ and the Judgement of such you deny not to be the judgement of God himself but all Churches besides those of your way which are but of yesterday you plainly though implicitly in the Close of your Answer deny to be true Churches whereby you proclaime M. Mar shal unity of Saints your selves to be the greatest Schismaticks in the world if the Scripture reason that a burning and shining Light in our Church hath given be of any weight which I refer to your serious Consideration as also the weight of this inartificial Argument to the judgement of the people Our Parish Assemblies have a true Church Constitution therfore Argu. 2. they are true Churches The Consequence is granted by you all for this is the Main if not only Reason why you deny the Truth of our Churches because they want a right Constitution The Antecedent I thus prove Those societies that have the true Matter and Form of Gospel Churches have a right Constitution Matter and Form being the only constitutive Principles and making up the Essence of every Body both natural and Political But our Parish Assemblies have the true Matter and Form of Gospel Churches therefore they have a true Church Constitution The Minor I make good from your own definition of a visible Church viz. A company of visible Saints combined or conjoyn'd in special bond consent or Covenant to partake of all Gods Ordinances and to perform all duties which they owe to God and each to other I argue thus those Societies that consist of visible Saints so combin'd are true Churches ours are such therefore The Major is your own the Minor is thus proved in both branches our Parish Assemblies are Societies of visible Saints Those societies where some are Real Saints the worser sort Brethren in a Gospel Account and the worst Professors of the true Faith they are Societies of visible Saints But such are our Assemblies therefore The Minor you cannot deny there are with us many that are men of understanding and not only blameless but pious also in their Conversations The Apostle commands us to account men ignorant and wicked if they be not wilfully and obstinately so Bretheren 2 Thes 3. 14 15. and you grant that the worst among us profess in word the true Faith viz. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God that we are justified by faith alone c. The Major is thus proved The Apostolical Church Societies were Societies of visible Saints but they had in them some reall Saints the worser sort Brethren the worst visible Professors therefore Societies that consist of such are true visible Churches That Christ owns for his Church such a Society where all profess the Faith though the greater part be wicked if there be a few names that are Reall Saints is evident by the example of the Church of Sardis Revel 3. 1. 4. the like may be said of the Church of Corinth c. We have therefore true Church Matter 2. They have a right Form for they are conjoin'd in a Church Covenant this is manifest by their constant meeting every Lords Day to worship God together which is an implicit Covenant our Adversaries being Judges That which was to be proved was that the Parishes of this Nation Answ J. O. in their first Constitution consisted of visible Saints and all that you have here said is void the mark for notwithstanding any thing that you have said the greatest part of the men in the Parishes of this Nation in their first constitution might consist of visible wicked men and so all that you have said is to no purpose for if ever you say any thing to purpose you must first prove that which you have undertaken viz. That you consisted at the first constitution of visible Saints and of this you have not spoken one word you rake back into the degenerated Estate and Condition of Churches striving to equalize and shroud your selves under the sins of others which are degenerated from what they were at first which is nothing to the purpose for I utterly deny that ever any of those Churches in their first forming did consist of such disobedient Persons as the Apostle speaks of 2 Thes 3. 14. For such with whom the Godly in that Church were forbidden to keep company with were sure unfit to be joyned with them as one Body if they appeared such at first and the like may be said of the Church of Sardis Corinth c. Now because these Churches were called Saints and that they had such among them as bad as any in yours you would infer that you may be called so too I grant that these were called Saints but it was not as they were disobedient Persons these never received the name of Saints as they were disobedient but as they being once visibly holy and Saint-like and not so farre degenerated but in a capacity of Recovering their former Estate they bore among others the name of such Now except you first prove that you in your first constitution were Saints visible which in the least measure you have not done there can be no Argument drawn from the Name of them to you I desire if you can to produce one Scripture where in the constitution of an Apostolical Church there was any such distinction made of best and worst and worst of all as you make though there might be a difference in the measures
him that was none himself how the Bishops could confer that power to you that they never had themselves is a mystery you hold that Ordination is Essential to Preaching now except you be able to prove your personal succession of ministry from the Apostles and that they do lineally succeed without interruption your Ordination is false for except there be a personal succession uninterrupted by heresy or whatsoever else may nullify a Ministers calling from the Apostles time to this present for if there be but one who when he ordained was no Minister or not ordained all that were ordained by him are no Ministers if Ordination be essential now if there should be a personal succession this drawes with it a perpetual visibility of a Church which when and where it is to be found in the dark times of Popery I desire to see for though there were Godly men yet not a visible Church with a right-ordained and ordaining Ministry Secondly were it granted that all the Bishops were true Ministers Lineal succession c. That as you were ordained I deny that you were right set in those Parishes if they were Churches as they are not according to Eph. 4. for First he must be enabled with abilities from God for that work Ephes 4. 8. Rom. 12. 6. 1 Cor. 12 11. Together with Grace to walk suitably thereunto 1 Tim. 3. 23. tit 1 6 7 8. Secondly being thus fitted with abilities the Church that is in want of Officers seeing such Men fit for the work are to Elect such Men for the Service they are enabled to perform Acts 14. 23. They ordained i. e. they Elected and Chose so the word ordained is put where the Scripture speaks expresly of Chusing Acts 1. 22. So saith one of your own Divines they made them by voices the matter went to suffrages which could not be betwixt Paul and Barnabas Election by most voices or lifting up of hands in token of a suffrage had place only amongst a multitude assembled together so Acts 1. 23. They the Church appointed two and although the Lord shewed by lot which of the two yet it was the Churches Act to reduce it to two so Acts 6. 5. The Argument will hold good from the less to the greater if the Church must chuse a Deacon in the time the Apostles were present and an inferior Officer much more a Pastor that they were so highly concern'd in and it is contrary to all reason that the Church should be debar'd of the choice of her own Officers after which Ordination by Imposition of hands Acts 6. 6. onely to signify the setting apart of that Man to that which he is chosen to In the Apostles time the Holy Ghost was given by it but now as the Miracle so the Mystery is ceased and if it be used to that end still it is false the end being ceased Now you were set in these Parishes by the Bishops clean contrary like Men minding directly to oppose Christ in all they did for first when Men proceeded to such degrees in the Universities they made them Ministers in that they had attained to so much literature and not only in regard of their having received abilities from God with grace to walk up thereunto which only ought to be the ground upon which they ought to be judged fit for that work as appeareth from hence in that they ordained many that were ignorant sots in the knowledge of the things of God that with all their wit could not tell how to make a Sermon in their way of sermon making except they could patch up an houres talk out of others works and then come read it to the people which is no Preaching they had better bring their great books where their Sermons are made to their hands read out of them for First It would save them much paixes Secondly It would not cozen their hearers Thirdly It would not be robbery to their owner and so far have many of them been short of grace to live holy lives which is as absolutely required as gifâ—s 1 Tim. 3. 3. and Tit. 1. 0 7. as that experience shewes their works are abominable Secondly as they went upon a wrong ground so in a wrong manner For first they made them Ministers before they had a flock to Minister to which was ridiculous seeing that Pastor and Flock are Relates the one gives being and the Essential Constituting Cause to the other and if it be foolish to say a Man may be a father and have had no child a busband and no wife it is also as foolish to say a Man a Minister a Pastor without a flock the like reason in both So election by the Church which is to give the very being to a Pastor in relation to the Office he is to perform so as without which he may not perform the work this is altogether left out and a violent intrusion by the help of the Patron a thing unheard-of in Gods Word is come in its stead and Ordination which is to be a solemn setting and Confirming of such a Man into that work he is chosen being the last this is made first and Christs order directly changed First from hence it appeares that the Ministers of this Nation are not rightly set into the Office of the Ministery and so their Churches no true Churches and what help your other two Reasons will afford comes now to examination You say by their abilities 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and then by Gods blessing on their endeavors I answer if these be particulars to wit of some of the Ministers of these Parishes they include not the Question which is of all generally but if generally all the Ministers of these Parishes of whom the Question is I deny that they are generally able to divide the Word of Truth as our Translations render it for if they be you did very ill to call them dumb dogs greedy dogs as you did they are so far from rightly dividing the Word of Truth as that the Word of Truth is a Mystery to them as daily experience sheweth and what this Exhortation of Paul to Timothy study to shew thy self c. Is to prove that all the Covetous Ignorant Drunken Priests of this Nation are able to do so too is a Mystery to me the like may be answered to the next what blessing is to be seen in the labours of such Men I know not where like Priest like People almost generally for where they have an Ignorant drunken Priest such commonly are the People as it is easy to instance in too many and what 's the words of Paul 2 Cor. 3. Ye are our Epistle c. to prove that there is the like effects by the Ministers of the Parishes of this Nation generally upon their hearers as was by Paul upon the Corinthians I can in no wise see and truly Sir I must tell you that I cannot but think that cause to be
bad that is fain to make use of such poor proofs to hold it up viz. That the Ministers of this Nation generally are set by Christ in these places and yet many of them visibly abominable that have nothing to do to take Gods Word into their mouths seeing they hate to be Reformed and that all these are able rightly to divide the Word of Truth and that God hath blest their Labours which is so evidently false that the naming of it is confutation sufficient You did or might have heard from my mouth a full discourse Reply Dr. B. in vindication of the Ministery of England and of the lawfulness of their Ordination wherein all that you have here objected and much more was fully answered You have therefore no reason to say that either I will not or cannot prove it true your self or friends have the Notes at large which you may remember were publiquely produced the next Month day after the Sermon was preached Two things I shall lay down as to the charge brought against our ordination by Bishops First That the Bishops by See joint consent answer to the 4 objection against the whole body of our Assemblies p. 19. whom we were ordained cannot truly and properly be called Antichristian because they held the truth of doctrine and profâ—ssed all the fundamental Articles of the Christian Faith many of them have written powerfully against Pâ—pety and suffered much for defending the Truth of Christ against Antichrist some of them yet living such Gospell Ministers against whom Envy it self cannot except fulfilling the Word oâ— God by fidelity of dispensation and sincerity of Conversation Let all such places of Scripture be Consulted where Antichrist is described and you will find him always markt out by his falle doctrine though therefore it be confessed that in the Authority which our Bishops had and the exercise thereof there were something Antichristian yet it is as unchristian to call them Antichrists upon that account as to call you an hypocrite because there is something of hypocrisy in you Secondly Suppose them to be indeed Popish and Antichristian it will not follow that the ordination we had from them is so It is confest by all that this Nation had not the light of the Gospell and consequently the ordination of Gospell-Ministers from Rome but from Jerusalem even in the times of the Apostles or soon after and though the succession of this ordination hath passed through all the times of Popery since and the ordination of our first Reformers was from men of the Popish Religion yet is not the rightfulness of our vocation to the Ministery hereby Nulled the Scriptures themselves Baptism and the Articles of our Creed have all passed through the Papacy to us and yet they cease not to be true Scriptures true Baptism no more does Ordination Ministerial Acts are not at all vitiated much lesse made null though they passe through the hands of the worst of men Scribes and Pharisees were worse than naught Judas was a Devill Math. 23. 2 3. John 6. 70. Acts done by vertue of Office may be just and allowable though the Men and their Religion be naught You are not ignorant of the instance given of Popish Landlords and Judges whose Leases and sentences are not therfore Antichristian So in this Case Ordination is an Act of Office and derived from Christ and is not Popish though it be executed by Papists He that thinks Christs Ordination better for the Man that confers it is justly thought to incur the danger of that Curse denounced Jer. 17. 5. Much more may be said to stop your mouth but that so much is written already that all our adversaries are never able to resist Touching the exception against our entrance that we were not thosen by our People but presented by Patrons many things have been Answered that may suffice to give satisfaction to any sober minded First That the right of presentation that patrons have was given first by the Peoples free consent and therefore the choice they make may be accounted to be the choyce of the people Secondly The Law of our Land in the worst times required that People should have the same Election for substance which you plead for Thirdly Many of our Ministers were chosen by their People Fourthly The faithfull in many Congregations by their glad receiving of Ministers placed by Patrons and submitting themselves willingly to their godly directions at least by taking no exception against them consent to their entrance Fiftly Though it be very unfitting that People if fit to chuse should have a Minister thrust upon them yet there is no cleer Scripture-evidence that Ministers must be chosen by their People the meaning of that word in the Acts 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 can be no more but this that the event of the Lot was approved by the common consent and no marvell because it was determined by God but hence it followes not that it was their choice to accept or refuse him for an Apostle or if it did follow what is this to ordinary Ministers To that in Acts 6. not to say as some do that it might be the Apostles indulgence to the People Certain it is that an example without a precept makes not a constant Rule again from the Peoples Election of Deacons to their Election of Ministers the Consequence is not valid as it is not from the Election of a Maior to the Election of a King That place in Acts 14. 23. seemes most potent but the word there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not strong enough because it 's used to signify any Choice whatever though made by one alone Acts 10. 41. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Apostles were Elected by Christ alone Mark 6. Moreover the word is vsed by Ecclesiastical writers for to signify Imposition of hands which no way belonged to the People but was always referred to the Apostles and their successors 6. Suppose it necessary yet it is Evident enough that there may be some entrance into the Ministery sufficient where the People at first have not made Election as in Case they have not knowledge of their right or have not been suffered to use it but yet afterwards yielded themselves subject thereunto 7. Those that Consider how the Office of High Priest in our Saviours time was bought and sold and the succession ordinarily broken and yet how valid Acts done by them were to all intents and purposes will be abundantly satisfied that these allegations to null our Ministerial Office are lighter than vanity The other two Reasons to prove our Ministers to be sent of God are such as you threaten to examin but finding them too strong to deal with you leave them but leave not to cast filth upon his Faithfull Labourers because there are many unfaithfull ones among them as if the Priest-hood under the Law were made null by the ignorance and wickedness of a multitude in that Office If there were but a tenth of
for the administration of the Lords Supper it hath been so far from being rightly administred that whilst we were amongst you it was administred to visible abominable cursed Creatures directly contrarie to the Holy Ghosts Command 1 Cor. 5. 11. whereby we through you in that you separated not the precious from the vile were made partakers of other Jer. 15. 19. Hag. 2. 12 13. 1 Cor. 5. 6. Psal 119. 99 100. Rev. 18. 4. 2 Cor. 6. 15 16 17. mens sinns being leavened by their wickedness that had not the Lord through his Commandements given us more understanding than all our teachers and caused us to obey that word Come out of her my people we might also have stayed to have been made partakers of her Plagues and to this part of the Objection you are so far from removing that you do not once set about it Now how will you prove the Baptism we had from you to be good comes to be examined You say if the Baptism they had with you be better than that they had with us then it is true but the former is true Ergo. The Consequence is weak and feeble and carries with it not the least show or shadow of truth as a weak capacitie may easily see For one thing may be bad and another may be better and yet both naught Suppose I should grant by way of Concession that your Baptism is better than ours do you think you would not be pittifully troubled by vertue of that onely grant to prove by sound Arguments yours true Ours may be bad and yours a little better and yet both short the rule for ought this Consequence forces thus the Consequence being feeble the Conclusion falls of it self and all that you here say which is more than you have said to eight of your other Arguments where it seemes you think you have some great advantage might be let pass for I am onely to attend such Arguments as you have to produce to prove your selves true which this in the least doth not Yet nevertheless I denie the Minor viz. That your Baptism is better than ours Yours you say is better being dispensed by a Lawfull Administrator and ours not which you have alreadie proved c. That your Administrators are lawfully authorized I denie and though I heard you in your Lectures endeavour to prove it and answer Objections that were brought against you yet in my apprehension there was not any thing said by you that had any strength to sway with the Judgments of those that were not prepossessed with prejudice against whatsoever on the contrarie part should be said And though you say you heard me then say nothing but the day after c. Yet others can witness that when you had done speaking I declared my self unsatisfied touching what was delivered and I began with the beginning of your Sermon intending to have gone through it for in my apprehension you spake little that was true that day you after some few words pleaded your weariness c. told me that if I would dispute there was one that should do it for you and so went your way and I demanded of the man if he would justifie what you had preach'd which he seemed to be willing to and so we began where we left before viz. Whether the Parishes of this Nation were right for matter c. and from that I came to what you preach'd about the truth of your Ministrie of which you say I said nothing you saying your Ordination came not from the Pope but Christ I desired him to shew how he could be able to prove your succeeding from Christ successively down to you through all the dark times of Popery and not from them did the last true Minister before Poperie live to set Ordination on foot after Poperie or was there any successively in the time of Poperie and not of them which I desired to see and if neither of these but that you were made Ministers by the Bishops and they by the Pope and he by the Devill how could your Ordination come from Christ seeing No man can confer and give out to another what he hath not in himself Sure Christ never authorized the Pope to ordain Ministers to which he to my remembrance made no Reply but said he had not studied of those things c. Immediatly upon which you came in again demanding what you had preach'd that was not true And I told you what which was that those who were not Ministers in Office might not publickly preach which I told you was false and gave you my grounds from Scripture to prove it and after some small debate you again departed and would not stay to hear what I had further to say therefore to say I then said nothing is not true But to this you say you gave two Answers First that our Bishops we not Antichristian because they had truth of doctrine Secondly If they were it makes not our Calling null The reasons I have in my notes at large c. For what you have writ I am ready to answer Reply But for what you preach'd I am loth to meddle with for though I did take the notes of your Sermon yet by reason of the mighty croud of people I could not write one perfect sentence having hardly liberty to breath but only the beginning and end in some imperfect characters which whilst partly in memory partly before me and you ready to rectify what I took amiss it served for the present though now useless However you go about to justifie the wicked in their wickedness saying the Bishops were not Antichristian I think they were cryed down under that notion Do not declare it to the world now that you cryed them down under that notion as Antichristian not that they were so indeed but being the easier gotten down under that name you might the sooner get into their places I know not what you mean by they had truth of doctrine whether they had it left by Christ in his Word or whether they had it in the knowledge of it Sure I am they practised contrary as appeared in their imposing so many abominable things upon the consciences of men that were Popish human and meerly of the Invention of the Devill to root out the pure Ordinances of Christ intrenching upon the Kingly office of Christ which is the only Law-maker to his Church and not only so but perverting and hellishly tormenting the Saints of Jesus that bore testimony to the Regal office of Christ opposing and persecuting Christ in his members If these men were not Antichristian I know not where Antichrist will be found If you say they were not all such but some of them were godly I answer the office of them all was Antichristian els why did you not put down only the bad ones and let the good ones remain their calling to their office was all alike and the Pope was the Ordainer of them all therefore if you were
all Ordained by the good ones as you were not the case is not a whit the better seeing they Ordained not by goodness but by Office which was alike in them all Secondly you say if they were Antichristian it makes not your calling null and the reason that you gave as I remember was that some things may be wanting in the worship of God and yet not all null as you instanced I answer You hold Ordination Essential to preaching so as a man may not preach without it now the Office of the Bishop being false and they in that office Antichristian having never received call to that Office from Christ or his Church but originally from the Devill how these can by that Office make a true Minister of Christ conferring that power to another that they were never possest of themselves is a mystery This is not only a want of some but all things whereby the work should be lawfully performed Evident you say it is that your Administrators are set apart c. And that such only may Baptize Mat. 28. 18 19. to that I answer That an Ordination you have it 's true but it 's performed by such as have no authority from Christ for what they doe Neither yet doe they do it according to Christs Order as I have already proved in answer to the 5. Argument whereunto I refer the Reader being unwilling needlesly to multiply words and how you shall be able to justifie your Call manner of Entrance c. against those exceptions when I see it published for before I must not by our agreement I shall in Convenient time give the world and you an account of the strength or weakness thereof and that such may Baptize whom Christ Authorizes in Matth. 28. I grant but that Christ Authorizes only Ministers in office by Ordination if you was such as you are not I utterly deny for that text holds forth the plain contrary as presently shall be shewed Now for your Call where you make so many intricat turnings and needless tautologies many of your Quaeres being for substance one I shall first shew by what means and how we had our Call to the performance of this Ordinance and then shall answer what of yours that makes against and what is in yours not contradictory to the thing in hand when rightly shewed shall be left as not materiall thus The mystery of iniquity from the Apostles time beginning to 2 Thess 2. 7. work and after their death more and more to creep into the Church and so far prevailed by degrees through the subtilty of the Devill that the pure Lawes of Jesus came to be eaten out and the inventions of man came in their room so far prevailing till the Lord Christs Prophetical Regal and Priestly offices were justled out and cunningly undermined till at last the man of sin did get into the Temple of God shewing himself that he was God Verse 4. revenging the contempt of his wickedness and making spoil of the precious Saints of Jesus that testified against his Abomination till they were drunk with the blood of the Saints that ceased not to cry How long Lord holy and true c. then were the Inhabitants of Rev. 6. 10. the earth made drunck with the wine of her fornication and all the world wondered after this Beast in so much that she began to Chap. 17. 2. say in her heart I sit a Queen and I am no Widow c. thus being at her pitch of glory darkness ye thick darkness and a dismal Chap. 18. 17. gloomy night was spred over the world for the neglect of keeping close to the Word of Truth the Lord suffered an Eclipse by the interposition of mans inventions betwixt his truth and their sight to darken the world till his pleasures was to appear and then like the appearing of the day darkness and the clouds of Ignorance began to dissipate and he by the brightness of his coming did reveal by degrees the mysterie of iniquity and sweetly Vers 2. 8. enlighten his servants in the knowledge of his Truth by that infallible Word the Scriptures of Truth helping them by his Spirit to a right understanding thereof and by degrees giving forth the knowledge of his will each age receiving more than other as Waldenses Wickliff Hus Luther c. still more and more increasing till it was by some seen not immediatly hence here is an answer to your first demand neither yet mediatly by the help of men hence an answer to the second by means of the Scripture the Spirit of the Lord helping to a right understanding thereof that they had been cheated of that blessed though much despised Ordinance of Baptism and a contrary intruded in its room that was right neither in the Subject Manner nor End and these people seeing it their duty to practize it and knowing of it to be the will of Christ that it should be performed Resolved upon the work to reassume this Ordinance Now the Call to the knowledge of it was thus The Spirit of the Lord inlighting by means of the Scripture to the understanding of his Will They Call to the practice of it thus A company of believes assembled in the Name of Christ willing to follow him in the way of his Ordinances revealed in his Word and yet seeing their want of a personall succession and yet knowing it their duty and the will of Christ it should be performed did appoint one that was unbaptized to reassume and set again on foot this Ordinance of Christ And if any one question the lawfulness of this further than I shall have occasion to vindicate it from such exceptions as here make against it I refer him to a Treatise intituled A way to Zion sought out where all that are willing to see may First from abominable damnable absurdities that will follow if the Saints in light though they want a personal succession of this Ordinance seeing themselves deprived of this or any other Ordinance may not take it up without a Lineal succession Secondly from Scripture plainly proved where all that will not wilfully shut their eyes may see Now what of yours seemingly makes against this is first If you should say you had your Call from a Church ungathered you would proclaim your Calling Antichristian from your own principles and your selves Schismaticks by separating from a true Ministery Answer Let the reasons wherefore we judge you false Ministers in relation to the external Call which we are now only speaking of be briefly laid down and also the grounds of our reassuming this Ordinance and then let the Judicious judge whether upon the Judgement that is given of the first the like may be given upon the latter upon the same Principles We judge you false First because the very Original of your Call came from the Devill he sending the Pope the Pope the Bishops the Bishops you and seeing you still retain and stand Ministers by
for they have right to be an actual Congregation the Assumption is proved so abundantly by others that I need say no more till they be answered the sum is this we have the word ourselves and the blessing of the Covenant Ergo we are in Covenant with God I deny the Antecedent That the Parishes of this Nation generally Answer I. O. are Saints who have made a Covenant with God by sacrifice according to Ps 50. 50. is most abominably false the very naming of it is confutation sufficient he that justifies the wicked in their wickedness is abomination before God and who those are that have proved that the Parishes of this Nation generally are Saints that have made a Covenant with God by sacrifice I never yet saw attempted the truth is you have neither had the word as you ought to have had nor yet the Seals rightly administred neither yet the blessing of the Covenant and that this is so is so abundantly proved by others that I need say no more till they be answered Those Societies that answer the Kingdom of Heaven in those Parables of our Saviour where he declares what the visible Church Arg. 15. D. B. is they are true Churches for his scope is to teach us by those similitudes how to know the visible Church on earth but so do our Assemblies I will instance in two or three of those Parables first of the good seed sown in the field Mat. 13. 24. which because our Saviour says is meant of the world ver 38. you with many others deny the visible Church to be thereby intended but interpret it of the wider world But that Christ means his Church his Field scattered throughout the world appears evidently by the servants wondring at the tares ver 25. there had been no place for this wonder if that were his meaning for who can wonder to see the world full of wicked persons I argue thus Those Societies that have good seed sowen in them and mixture of good men and wicked hypocrites united in external Communion and Profession of Religion are true visible Churches but so have ours and so had the Apostolical Churches in Corinth for example A second is that of the Draw Net ver 47. Many in the Church not of the Church 1 Joâ— 2. 19. this is apparent that in the Church sincere and hypocrites are gathered to profession and external Communion and where they are so there is the Church to the same purpose is the Parable Mat. 22. of him that had not on a wedding Garment and that in Mat. 25. of the 10. Virgins Finally the Church is compared to a flower where there is Chaf mixt with Wheat that which is objected that the Church is a society of Saints called to be Saints is easily answered the denomination is taken from the better part i. e. all should be some are real Saints To the first of these Parables it is apparant it is not meant of the Answer I. O. Church at all but the world ver 38. Christ himself interprets it now whether it be believed of Christ or you Let all men Judge Whereas you say we interpret of the wider world I desire you in your next to shew if you can where Christ makes any distinction of wider or narrower world or whether the Church is not a people called out of the world visibly known from it if you cannot you do not well in making such distinctions where the Scripture makes known you say Christ means his Church his Field Answer That is as much as you should say his Church his World for Field is world ver 38. so you confound the Church and world together as one that hath alwaies been so distinctly separated nay this is also to confound your self who say the word Church signifies a Company called out of the world You say it appears by the servants wondring at the tares and if meant of the world there had been no place for this wonder Reply This it seems is that weighty reason that perswades your judgement contrary to Christs exposition of his own words There is never a such Word as Wonder in the Text they only askt the Question if he did not sow good seed in his Field and from whence came the tares and that they might well do from the consideration of that precious Gospel of Peace Christ cast into the world and that deadly enmity hatched against is when declared or if there could no reason be given of this their Question we must not therefore frame an exposition of our own contrary to Christs express determination for similitudes carry not an equal Parallel in all things but very many times That Christ means not the Church I thus evince That which makes void the Doctrin of Excommunication and makes Christ speak plain Contradiction is not the meaning of Christ in this Parable but to interpret it of the Church doth so Ergo. The Major is undeniable the Minor is manifest from the whole scope of the place for when the tares i. e. wicked Men ver 38. did visibly appear ver 26. the servants said wilt thou ver 28. that we go and gather them up the Master said nay ver 30. Let both grow till the Harvest which Harvest is the end of the world ver 39. now what can be more plainlyer laid down in the world then this that if it be meant of the Church no Min is to be cast out of it till the day of judgement though visibly wicked and how doth it make Christ speak plain contradition one while commanding ungodly persons to be cast out of his Church and an other while commending them to be kept in Let them alone c. thus the interpretation of this Scripture by you being false the Argument that you draw is from a groundless Construction of the words and so useless now for all the rest if they be to be understood of the Church it s such a mixture as is not severable till the day of judgement and so undeniable not discernable to the eys of Men seeing those that appear to be nought are to be separated before that time 1 Cor. 5. 2 5 7 11 13. 2 Cor. 6. 14 15 16 17. With many other places to the same purpose evident it is for that of the Draw net ver 49. to the end of the world was the time of severation and so the time of discerning and of him that had not the wedding Garment on it seems the Master of the Feast only discerned and for the ten Virgins the time of discerning the wise from the foolish was when the Bridegroom came I readily grant that in a true Gospel Church there may be many in it that are none of it many Hypocrites gathered to profession and external Communion c. but then they must be such as to the eys of the Church undiscernable for we see all along the Scripture by Christs own command Mat. 18. 15 16 17. If thy Brother
trespass against thee go and tell him of his fault betwixe him and thee alone and if he will not hear thee take with thee one or two more and if he will not hear them tell it to the Church and if he neglect to hear the Church let him be to thee at a Heathen and Publican and thus the Apostle was carefull to keep the Church visible purer Purge out from you the old Leaven saith Paul know you not that a little Leaven leaveneth the vvhole lump see and consider Haggai 1. 11 12 13 now you being such as are and ever were for the most part visibly nought cannot Answer those Parables if understood of the Church true it is that many Churches in the Apostles times had amongst them visibly bad they being degenerated from what he was but they were to remain but for a considerable time of tryal to see if they would be restored and if they would not be reclamed but prove contumacious they are to be delivered to that Kingdom from whence they For those which you so harp upon that was bad in the Apostolicall Churches and as bad as you say as yours these were not fit matter for a Church as such for such they were commanded to excommunicate 1 Cor. 5. 5 6 7. and forbad to have Communion with ver 11 12 13. sure was unfit matter for the Church came and for the objection that you say is so easily answered the Church being called Saints the denomination being taken from the better part I answer if you mean this if a Church at its first constitution it s abundantly false and you have spoken it without the least colour of Scripture or reason I challenge you or any Man in the World to produce one example in all the New Testament of any one Church that at its Constitution received one visible wicked Man and if not but all appeared Saints then undeniable it is that the denomination arose from the visibility of sanctity that appeared in all and so it was as the Scripture plainly declares to all that are willing to see If you mean it of a Church when degenerated from what they were it s nothing to your purpose because you for the most part were never visibly Regenerated it appears that the Churches after corrupted retained the name of Saints from that visible sanctity once they had and yet not past recovery to their former Estate for after they appeared past recovery see what they may be called Mat. 18. 17. all you say should be answer true therefore those that are not are as they should not be Some you say are true but that doth not shew that those that never were are to be accounted so nor that those that never were are to be accounted Church Members though amongst the other for then Babylon is a Church and a society of Saints for some Saints may be and have been there Rev. 18. 4. Those societies from which it is a Sin to separate are true Churches Arg. 16. D. B. but it is a Sin to separate from our Assemblies Ergo. That Church for separation from which there is as little reason as there was for separating from the Church whereof Christ professeth himself a Member John 4. 22. and so from the Church of Corinth it is a sin to separate from but there is little reason to separate from our Assemblies compare our Churches with the Church of the Jews in Christs time for Teachers and Rulers and you shall find as bad of both as with us if you say these Churches had a right Constitution and gathering I have proved ours have both The Minor of the first and also of the second Syllogism is denyed Answer 1. 0. and were our separation from you onely for the evilness of you it might easily be made appear that there is more reason to separate from you then either the Church of the Jews or Corinthians You have been so far from proving that Constitution true that after you had indeavoured it and see my answer to it you then deny that you were to prove any such thing see page the 2d Argument 2. and then page 6. at the Reply but the truth is you yet never were a Church at all you never having had any Gospel Constitution and where you say you have proved it there I have disproved it and proved it false where unto I refer the Reader being unwilling needlesly to multiply words Those Churches that have brought forth a multitude of Martyrs Argument 17. Dr. B. for the Causes of Christ against Anti-Christ are no Anti-Christian but true Churches that ours have so is superfluous for me to prove Sir I desire you in your next to prove that the bringing over Answer 1. 0. of men to yield up their lives in the defence of some truths for these did no more is sufficient to prove the societies that so taught them true Churches go throughout all the diversities of Religions almost in the world and you shall find some so taught as were they called to it would yield up their lives and Seal some truths of Christ with their blood Rome it self I am confident would yield many Martyrs for the Cause of Christ in many real truths and though they could not be concluded Anti-Christian in that yet they might in many other things that they might hold that might be erronious Here are many societies in England that deny the Baptism of water to be practised upon any subject without which no society in the world can be accounted a visible Church and yet I am confident had they occasion rather than they would deny they would seal many precious truths of Christ with their blood and now upon your Argument they in so doing might be proved true Churches if what you say be true though they deny that without which no men can be esteemed so Secondly I desire to see it proved for yet you have not that the Parishes of this Nation did bring forth these Martyrs I rather think that the Parishes of this Nation were as willing to have them Martyred as those bloody men themselves that did it for that Parish that brought forth some that were Members of her to profess and dye for some truths must needs profess the same things themselves and so they should all have been Martyred for such was the blood-thirstiness of those men that all that would not submit to their abominations must dye But we see no such thing for only some few in some Parishes and in any one were Martyred and the rest not toucht which shews that the Parishes except some few were of the mind of those bloody men and so the edge of the Argument may be turned into your own Neck thus Those Churches that have consented to the Martyrdom of a multitude of those that dyed in the defence of the Cause of Christ are no true Churches but the Parishes of this Nation have so consented Ergo. Thirdly were all
this true viz. that they that have brought forth such are true Churches and that some Parishes have done so as it is not yet this Argument includes not the Question for I think it will never be proved that half the Parishes of England have brought forth any and so all those Parishes that have brought forth none are notwithstanding this Argument not proved true were it true as it is not Those Churches that Anti-Christ hates with a perfect hatred and seeks the destruction of and which hate Anti-Christ with Arg. 18. D. B. as perfect a hatred and pray for the destruction of are true Churches but such are ours This Argument is onely affirmed without proof you onely say it Answer I. O. is so and I with as much reason may say it is not so to what purpose would five hundred Argments so left be truly Sir if your end in writing be for satisfaction I would intreat you to bring some Scripture or reason for what you say or else say nothing for your words will now be taken no more for Oracles you 'l be beleeved no further than clear evidence carries a perswasive power I know not what you mean by perfect hatred it cannot be denyed but Anti-Christ hates all so far as they hold and practice any thing that 's good Let it be Pope or who it will and they also so far hate him But this proves not such true Churches but if by perfect hatred you mean the highest perfection of hellish malice which Anti-Christ casts forth against a society indeavouring their destruction in chief I acknowledge the Major true for those that have so far and so perfectly hated Anti-Christ as to get clean out of his kingdom imbodyed together in Gospel order and indeavour to discover and break in pieces his kingdom They are the principle perfect subject of his hatred betwixt whom there is the deadliest enmity he inseeking their destruction in chief and they of him but now I deny your Minor viz. that Anti-Christ hates you with this hatred for daily experience shews that there be some societies that he is at more deadly enmity then with you seeking all hellish contrivances to cast dirt in the faces of them that are departed his kingdom now if you be not chief subject of his hatred as you have neither proved nor once set about it then you perfectly hate not him for such who perfectly hate him are the chief subjects of his hatred And for your praying for his destruction that you may do all your life and practise such thing as are the foundation of his upholding men may highly be Anti-Christian under a seeming pretence of seeking his destruction Those societies that consist of faithful Rulers in the Lord and Arg. 19. D. B. faithful Members united the one ruled well the other ruled willingly they are true Churches but such are many of our Parochial Assemblies The Minor is short the mark and includes not the question Answer I. O. in dispute which is of the Parishes generally if you say be generally is not meant every one but the greatest part yet still it will be too short for if such should be faithful Rulers and ruled as you judge so yet you can never prove that above half the Nation is such For though I utterly deny that there is ever a Parish in England that consists of such faithful Rulers i. e. faithfully ruling according to the will of the Lord revealed in his word neither yet are the other faithful Members united i. e. in compleat order according to the Gospel rule yet seeing the question is stated and this Argument brought to prove it and yet includes it not no answer need be given it not only includes not the question in debate neither yet gives proof for what it doth conclude of Sir wherefore is it that you decline the question in the close of all and leave out some Parishes as no true Churches not onely here but also in dispute when you argued from the truth and ability c. of the Ministry to the truth of the Churches Argument 5. I answering you with your own words that you preacht thereby undeniably proving that all was not such and so not all true therefore not including the question you said to this purpose that if above half was it did whence I declared that you granted some to be false to which you denyed not Now this is a plain grant that you are all false For you stand all upon one foundation you have all one and the same matter and form and all the Reformation that some above others are more zealous of is such as had they their desires gives no new essential constitutive principles viz. matter and form but is onely a building upon the same matter and form that you had once together with those you now leave out and which they also retain still as well as you Therefore if there be some Parishes that be false Churches there is never a one that 's true The consequence is evident in that matter and form which is onely a differeneing note of distinction is one and the same with you all But there are some that be false This you have not denyed or if you had it might easily have been proved from the Minor of the last Argument there being some upon your own principles that have neither faithful Rulers in the Lord neither yet faithful Members united and so not possible to be true Therefore there is never a one that 's true FINIS