leaue all these Angels yf one Lucifer all these Apostles yf one Iudas might incroache among them Let vs then yf such reasoning must be currant turne the leafe VVhether any late Reforming Patriarches weare of commendable lyfe 19. I may be thought vnreasonable at the first surmise to examine this demande first that I would without limitation so generaly inquyre of all the broode among whom perhaps some first Apostles of Reformations might be inculpable Secondly considering how great how exorbitant how incomparable commendations they may fynde giuen to the cheefe of their sorte especialy to Luther and Caluin I will deale vprightly and omitting the residue not so excessiuely commended will examin the sayd two pillers of protestancie not concealing their commendations Vide Fox Acts. p. 404. the Harborough in the last oratien 20. First I fynde Martin Luther a sainct in Foxes calendar Secondly I fynde in the Harborowgh sayd I am the country which brought foorth the blessed man Ihon Huss who begott Luther who begott truth â—hirdly I fynd in Iuel that he was a most excellent man Iuel defen Apol. par 4. c. 4. §. 2. Mathes conc 8. de Luth. pag. 88. Amsdorf-praef to 1. Luth. sent from God â—lighten the world Fowerthly in Mathesius He was supremus Pater â—â—clesiae The supreme Father of the Church Fiftly in Amsdorf He was â—h cui par spiritu fide sapientia intelligentia veritatis nunquam toto â—e Christiano quisquam fuit neque erit To whom in all the Christian world â—ne lyke in spirit and faythe wisedome and profunditie in scripturs was or â—er wil be Sixtly in Alberus he is sayd Verus Paulus verus Elias Alberus con Carolostadianos lib. 7. B. D. 8. vir â—moranda irae Dei sufficiens cuius non puderet Augustinum esse discipulum 〈◊〉 true Paul a true Elias a man sufficient to appeace the wrathe of God Vide num 120. Illyric in Apoc. c. 14. Conrad Schluss in Theol. Cal. l. 2. fol. 124. Confess Eccl. Tygur fol. 116. 127. Luth. ep ad Argentin 1525. Cal. de vera ratione reform Eccl. 463. to â—hom Augustin might not blushe to be his scholer Seuenthly with Illyricus â—e is fortould in the Apocalips as the Angel flying through the midst of â—auen hauing the eternal gospell Eightly with Schlusselburg Elias and Ihon â—â—pâ—ist weer but figurs of him Nynthly by Zuinglius reporte he called â—im self the Prophet and Apostle of the Germains which is confirmed by â—s owne saying Christum à nobis primum vulgatum audemus gloriari VVe â—re boast that Christ was first by vs preached All which coÌ„mendations â—e by Caluin coÌ„firmed assuredly so that noe protestaÌ„ts may lawfully â—oubt of them Tenthly and lastly yf you knew not what place â—e purchased in heauen now giue eare to Spangeburg Christus habet primas habeas tibi Paule secuÌ„das â—â—st loca post illos proxima Luther habet First place to Christ Cyriacus Spangeb con Steph. Agricol fol. 6. a. the next to Paul Then Luther first of others all Not much inferiour to the former are the prayses of Caluin with Beza he being optimus scripturaeinterpres quo nemo vnquaÌ„ molius Beza lib. Iconum R. 3. a. pruâ—eÌ„tius clarius illustrius de rebus diuinis religione scripsit The cheefest interâ—reter of scripture then whom no man euer wrote better wyser cleerer and with greater fame of Scripturs To Cartwright Cartwr li. 1. pag. 32. he is the most noble instrument of Gods Church in restoring the playne and sincere interpretatioÌ„s of the scripturs which hath bene since the Apostles tyme. To one in Geneua he was so great Zanchius epist. ad Mase â—s si veniret S. Paulus qui eadeÌ„ hora coÌ„cionaretur qua Caluinus relicto Paulo â—udiret CaluinuÌ„ Yf S. Paul would come and preache in the same hower wherin â—aluin preached he would leaue S. Paul to attend on Caluin Iacob Bernardus in Epist ad Caluin inter Epistolas Cal. Caluin in antid CoÌ„c Trid. sess 4. pag. 374. To one Iames â—ernard he was lapis queÌ„ reprobaruÌ„t aedificaÌ„tes factus in caput anguli The stone â—eiected by the builders made vp in the corner head Breefly he saith of him â—elfe Shamfastnes hindreth me to say what otherwyse I might most truely proâ—esse that for the vnderstanding of scripturs we haue furthered more then all the â—ctours the papists euer had from the begyning By al which much more â—hich might haue bene brought appeareth that these two are inâ—oÌ„parably preferred in heaueÌ„ earth in so much as the mother of God all Apostles are made inferiour vnto them For quicquid agit â—â—uÌ„dus Luther vult esse secuÌ„dus VVhat euer shift be found Luther wil be secound 21. Yf therfore these two by as euident testimonies of lyke witnesses be found most abhominable and wicked wretches can any body do less then think that men of such lauishnes ad prodigalitie in vntruthes are to be suspected most where they importune most to be beleeued I wil begyn with the great prophet Apostle Elias Paul light of the world father of trueth Angel and third or second person in heauen against him selfe and all his commenders Induratus insensatus sedeo in otio Luth. epist 234. ad Philip. proh dolor parum orans nihil gemens pro Ecclesia Dei. Carnis meae indomitae vror magnis ignibus I sitt in idlenes sayth Luther hardned and senselesse alas praying litle and nothing lamenting for Gods Church Idem lib. de vita Coniugali I burne with the great fyers of my vntamed fleashe Minimè situm est in me vt sine muliere sim It lyeth no wayes in my power to be without a woman Luther in Colloq mensal fol. 271. 275. Secondly he sayth of him selfe and his neerest bedfellow Diabolus frequentius propius mihi condormit quà m mea Catherina The Deuil sleepeth neerer oftener by me then my Catharine Thirdly Sathan mihi multis modis prae caeteris fauet Sathan fauoureth me much more then be doth others Idem ibid. fol. 5.129 Fowerthly Sancte Sathan or a pro nobis minimè tamen contra te peccauimus clementissime Diabole Holy Sathan pray for vs we neuer haue offended the o most Clement Deuil there followeth some woords in this last allegation which I referre to M. Rider as a reserued case Is not this sufficient to make him knowen as farr beyond all abhominable miscreants in wickednes according truth as he was preferred beyond all saincts according falshood Schlusselburg lib. 2. art 12. de theol Caluinist Yf it be not let the children help the father He was say they prowd furious intolerable full of errour impudent forger deprauer of Gods woord deceitfull seducter fals-prophet lunatick presumptuous crucyfyer and murtherer of Christ c. 22. Now of Caluin sayth Schlusselburg God that would not be mocked by men hath shewed his iudgement in this world against Caluin
auowched Tertullian l. de resurrect Carnis Graunt you also with Tertullian that Caro corpore sanguine Christi vescitur vt anima de Deo saginetur the fleash not only the sowle is fedd with the body and blood of Christ that the sowle may be fatt in God Hieron ad Damasum de prodigo filio Wit hs Hierom I consent that the Sacrament is a representation do not you also impugne him saying Ipse Saluator est cuius quotidie carne vescimur cruore potamur It is our Saluiour him selfe Ambros. l. 4. de Sacram c. 14. with whose fleash we are dayly feed whose blood we drinke I subscribe to S. Ambros that it is a signification do you no lesse that after consecration it is the fleash of Christ I allow with S. Chrysostom it is a remembrance Chrysost hom 60. ad pop Antioch and exemplar of Christs sacrifice vpon the Crosse for of that he speaketh do you no lesse when he saythe that in the Sacrament Christ is with vs non fide tantum sed ipsa re not in faythe only Clemens Alexandrin loco citato a Ridero but in very realitie I professe with Clement Alexandrinus to receaue Christ as he speaketh which is nothing to M. Riders intention and all other wayes it may be interpreted vnder an allegorie or figure as meat of faith c I coÌ„fesse also Ipsum Saluatorem intra pectus suscipi that our Saluiour him selfe is receaued into the breast I graunt all Beda in Luc. 22. that you alleage owt of Beda do you also not contradict your owne pretended witnesses but professe in the figure of bread and wyne is the Sacrament of Christs fleashe and blood Behould M. Rider you haue purchased that all which you haue here produced excepting vntruethes is freely and liberaly permitted but farr from your purpose or proffit Is it because a figure or allegorie is witnesed and that not only or without contradicting the substance that you and your only figure should seeme benefited I say with Gods woord and marke it well that Christ is a figure Sap. 7. 2. Cor. 4. Hebr. 1. Coloss 1. Ephes. 5. Luc. c. 12 c. 22. and image of his Fathers substance will you inferr that therfor he is not the selfe same substance with the Father I say Christ is spiritualy and figuratiuely the head of his Churche will you inferr that therfor he hathe not a material head I say that his baptisme and Crosse are taken some tyme spiritualy or figuratiuely will you inferr that therfor his material baptisme and sensible suffring should be excluded I say that he was habitu inuentus vt homo Philip 2. in shape found as a man wil you say that therfor he was no man It is no lesse against Scriptures and Fathers to doe the one then the other to exclude substance in the Sacrament for being together a figure and to doe it in the instances alleaged Therfor as I graunt and shew figure and veritie spirit and letter shaddow and substance by euery autheure by your selfe produced so reciprocally do not misinforme any longer but say although they affirme figure spirit and shaddow so they do not contradict veritie letter and substance Otherwyse euery Reader will condemne your honestie woords and learning as but a figure without veritie a spirit without letter and shaddow without substance Isichius in leuit l. 6. c. 22. So certifyeth saying He receaueth by ignoraÌ„ce who knoweth not this to be the body and bloud according to the trueth Which is as much to say as who by faythles fayth receaueth a figure without trueth of the thing figured he hath receaued according to ignorance and infidelitie But to your 4. Notes 1. grownded vpon Christs blood called wyne 2. consecration called benediction 3. wyne not changed because still called wyne 4. figuratiue phrase therfor not propre I aunsweare to the first and third that it is a custome in Gods woord and not only in holy Fathers to call thinges altered by their former names or according to the outward lyknes they represent Exod. c. 7. Toâ— 2. Gen. 18. As for example Aarons rodd deuowred their rodds wheras they were now no rodds but Serpents Raphael is called a yong man three angels three yong men according to their only outward resemblance I aunswer to the second and last that the name benediction doth rather approue the consecration then disanull it and the name figure not exclude propietie as aforsayd The premisses considered no man will deny the 39. vntrueth The 39. vntruth to be that his exposition is ancient Catholick and Apostolical ours new priuat and heretical Pardon him being of their fellow shipp whose spirit consisteth as Vincent Lirinensis cap. 26. sayth in contrarietie vt ignorantia scientiae caligo serenitatis tenebrae luminis appellatione fucentur that ignorance with them masketh vnder the name of knowledge clowds of cleernes and darkenes of light So that as Luther him selfe confesseth the dayes are come in quibus omnia libentissime docemus audimus praeter ea que sunt anâ—iquae solidae veritatis Luth. l. cont Catharin VVherin he and his compagnie do most willingly heare and teach all things els besyd things that are of ancient and solide veritie Therfor as I sayd pardon him in following his trade and their trayne which is now described when he claymeth his profession to be owld and ours new Let vs only be his Referendaries for escapes or vntruethes not to be omitted in his confession when God of his infinit clemencie will grawnt him grace for which I pray perhapp as much as him selfe to repent The 40. The 40. 41 42. vntruthe vntrueth that we might neuer aunswer his obiection owt of Chrisostom as also that in the 11. hom vpon Mathew he hath any woord of what is by M. Rider alleadged The 41. that Beda telleth in England in his tyme the text was taken figuratiuely The 42. That these Fathers do howld against vs wheras we professe in euery place as much as from them can lawfully be challenged Let fouer or fiue small vntruethes passe among the rest that it be knowen I keepe the bulke as small as is possible 57. But you will say these testimonies of these Fathers Rider though of your owne Prints yet they prooue nothing against you vnlesse the Church of Rome should receiue and allow that exposition of the Fathers to be Catholicke If you should so replie surely it were a weake replication and subiect to manie exceptions and you would wring I cannot say wrong the church of Rome that she should hold a doctrine against all the old Doctors But if you will thus replie to bleare the eies of the simple yet will I frustrate your expectation for now I will shew you that the auncient Popes and the auncient Church of Rome held as these Fathers did that the proposition Hoc est corpus meum to be significatiue and improper
bishops to haue any more authoritie then preests as also because as other puritans can not tolerat any honour to the name of Iesus so could not he to the name of Christ but sayde that it was a filthye name Alan Copus dial 6. c. 17. and all that did beleeue in the name of Christ were damned Also that Christ was not redeemer of the world but deceauer therof Which with many other lyke articles he professed at his deathe as is not only affirmed but also proued by Alanus Copus alias Nicholas Harpsfeld against Fox All which M. Rider hath bound himselfe to beleeue Fox loc proxime cit Fox pag. 1151. Tom. 1. Luth. in disp de baptism Art 3. Gagninus l 6. hist Fran. Item Gerson tr 3. in Mat. Paul Aemil. l. 6. hist. Gal. Genebr in Chron. an 1280. by his former woords Thirdly Ihon Wesell denyed the holy Ghost to proceed from the Father and the Sonne Yet he a Foxian Martyr Fowerthely Haux denyed baptisme of Children to be necessarie to saluation yet he a Foxian Martyr Yet Melancthon and he a Foxian Confessor pronounceth Furor est affirmare quod paruuli sine Sacramentis salâ— fiant it is furie to affirme that children may be saued without Baptisme Fiftly Almaricus as Gagnin relateth denyed resurrection heauen hell Christ in the Sacrament more then in a stone that God spake more in S. Augustin then in Ouid Yet he was a Foxian Martyr and by him made a great bishop which others could neuer haue knowen So he made Sr. Ihon Ould castle L. Cobham by his owne absolute authoritie as well allowed to make Lords and Knights as Martyrs and Confessours Fox pag 942. 943. 944 Sixtly Frith the learned and excellent Martyr of Fox affirmed the real presence no article of beleefe affirmatiue or negatiue although the expresse scripture record it and offred sayth Fox to Sr. Thomas More to beleeue the real presence without the adoration Ihon Clerke Fox in his Caleddar 12. 13 14. Nouemb. Iuly 3. Item Acts pag. 111. col 2. num 26. and Alice Potkins defended ther was no other Sacrament then Christ hanging on the crosse Antonie Person Testwod other assured the woords of Christ this is my body which is broken for you only to meane the breaking of Gods woord among the people All this by his former woords my Caualiero is bound to beleeue for these are Foxian Martyrs with whom he sayth he is consenting in vnitie and veritie of Doctrin So is againe William Cowbridge Alan Cop. dial pag. 6. 633. Fox pag 738. saying that nether the Apostles nor Euangelists nor sower Doctors of the Church haue hitherto reuealed how synners might be truely saued So Also is Richard Hunne saying that poore men and idiots haue the truth of the Scripturs more then a thousand Prelats and clercks of the schooles What say you M. Rider will you affirme the same according to your woord and bonde There is no remedie your obligation is to do it But I would know whether you now hould with the idiots rather then the Scholers Truly in any consequence you can not both for such promise and for being non proficiens accompagnie Scholers Yet yf you disdayne to be an idiot which your bond hath made you and perforce inuita Minerua will intrude your selfe among clercks listen how your Martyr in vnitie and veritie of doctrin Fox pag. 738. cometh ouer you he damned sayd Fox the vniuersitie of Oxford with all degrees and faculties in it So that vnlesse you take to be an idiot your Martyr condemneth you To be breefe in this ruthful obligation printed against your selfe to stand to such confederats besyd your making you selfe idiot c. you must auerr with Ihon Teuxburie Ibid. pag. 935. that it is impossible to consent to Gods law that all things are equaly belonging to all that the Iewes of good zeale putt Christ to death c. Of all othets mentioned in the examinatio of the Creed being all for the most parts saints of the same stamp add Calendarie you haue bound your selfe fast to ratifie their damnable blasphemies and to consent with them in vnitie and of doctrin You are to iustifie all that they haue affirmed or els your printed protestation will bewray your puritanical faythlesnes in performance of your promises 125. And next you bring in another learned Protestant Cheminitius Rider who you say alleadgeth Augustine Ambrose and Gregorie Naziazen to approoue your adoration in your sacrament Intimating to the world that we should either allow that in you which publikely we preach against or else that we should be at a discord amongst our selues touching this your opinion But the matter being exactlie examined out of these Fathers themselues and not by your Enchiridions or heresay the Catholickes shall see you wrong vs and abuse them And first it seemeth verie plaine you neuer saw or at least neuer read Chemnitius and my reasons bee these First you know not so much as his right name much lesse his precise opinion Chem pars 2. Canon 6. page 434. for you misspel his name Kemnitius for Chemnitius which had been a small fault if you had rightlie alleadged him touching the matter For your Tridentine Canon commandeth an externall or outward worship of Christ in the Sacrament vnder the formes of bread and wine And Chemnitius hee condemneth your outward worshippe for ydolatrous and teacheth onelie an inward spirituall worship And to prooue what I say I will trulie alleadge your Cannon then Chemnitius his examination of it and then let the Catholickes but iudge indifferentlie whether of vs deal more trulie and syncerelie in this case This is your Canon Si quis dixerit in sancto Eucharistiae sacramento Christum vnigenitum Dei Filium non esse cultu latriae etiam externo adorandum solemniter circumgestandum c. Anathema sit That is if anie man shall say that in the blessed sacrament of thanksgiuing that Christ the onelie begotten Sonne of God is not to bee worshipped with that outward and diuine worship which is proper and due onelie to God as well when the Sacrament is carried about in procession as in the lawfull vse of the same Page 435. 436. 437. let him be accursed Martyn Chemnitius examining this your Canon first condemneth your fained Transubstansiation and sheweth the reason for saith he vnlesse the Church of Rome had deuised this Transubstansiation you should haue been palpable ydolaters worshipping the creatures for Christ And therefore she imagined that the substance of bread wine were quite chaunged into Christs bodie and bloud no substance of them remaining lest the simplest should spie their ydolatrie Secondlie he expreslie condemneth your outward worship as ydolatrous and sheweth there that Christ must be receiued by faith and worshipped in spirit and truth Page 444. lines 2. 3. 4. And afterwards hee saith comprehenditur autem vera interior spirituali veneratio adoratio
by a 186. vntrueth For nether Pope The 186. vntruth nor Papist assaulted them how could they then defend them selues with their swoords against the Pope especialy not hate of papistrie but loue of sacrilege being their impulsion to suche vprore The 187. vntrueth is The 187. vntruth that they refused to receaue Orders Bishopricks or decrees from Rome For nether is any profre nor any such refuse recorded Yf Bernard so sharply reprehended them in the Popes quarell for not being subiect to the Popes orders or decrees in the name of Iesus why did you in your Preface informe your readers that S. Bernard tould the Pope to his face that his supremacie was vnlawfull O quantum mutantur ab illis O how farr are these woords repugnant to those That those eight preached the gospell and ministred the Sacraments is an addition of your making As also that the nobilitie and gentilitie cared not two pence for Papal blessings or curssings Whether they came to such infidelitie or noe there is great want of fidelitie in your deprauation of the historie as S. Bernard affoordeth it That they changed their ould Apostolical religion yf you meane according as your authour informeth them to haue changed as you should be tyed to your autheurs relation and the sense therof vnlesse you would be accompted a falsifier rather then interpreter what you call owld Apostolical religiō according to your conceit is according to trueth and your authour S. Bernard deuilish ambition dissolution of ecclesiastical disciplin ouerthrow of religion and Christianitie c. O quantum mutantur ab illis O how farr are these woords of the authour dissenting from these woords of the interpreter That they are become slaues to the late Italian Preist the Pope Gods enemye and the Queens butcher I know not how wyse a speeche it may seeme to any this I am suer yf they be slaues by being only Catholicks for other slauerie I thinke the Pope expecteth not at their hands it should not repent them for seruire Deo regnare est to serue God is to raigne And I could wishe that as they affect to be accompted such so they would better effect the dutie belonging to such Yf the Pope be no truer Gods enemie then he is late The 188. vntruth or the Queens butcher the 188. vntrueth may to all mens seeming be calculated That then they drew then swoords against the Pope to defend trueth the informer of the mater the punishmēt sent from heauen the former Protestant resolutions related in our answer to your Preface that trueth was vnbegotten till Luthers tyme The 189. vntruth do conioyntly register for the 189. vntrueth Wheras you prouoke the Noble men and Gentlemen of Irland to imitat such ancestours in their true honor you flatly perswad them to insurrection and rebellion For yf they imitat them they will indeuour to kill their King and such Bishop as he would establish they will enter into diuelish ambition c. For so did they by information of S. Bernard to whom you would induce these to conforme them selues From the profoundest bottom of my hart I beseeche the omnipotent Saluiour of the world long to preserue his sacred Maiestie now regnant against such Puritanical sequels and other their disloial and desperat dissignes long since not vnknowen to his wysdome nor vnfelt to his person nor parents 139. And that golden mouthed father Chrisost Vpon this place of Paul Rider Chrysost hom 2. vpon first of Titus That a Bishop must be the husband of one wife asked this question what mooued Paul thus to write to Timothie he aunswereth himselfe saying obstrure prorsus intendit haereticorum ora qui nuptias damnant ostendens c. The Apostle intendeth to stoppe the mouthes of all hereticks that condemneth marriage shewing that the thing in it selfe is faultlesse and a thing so precious vt cum ipsa etiam possit quispiam ad sanctum Episcopatus solium subuehi that a man beeing married may bee promoted to the holie function of a bishoppe And your Pope Gregorie saieth plainlie writing ad Theotistam Patricium that if marriage must be dissolued because of religion Sciendum est inquit yet saith he you must vnderstand quia etsi hoc lex humana concessit lex tamen diuina prohibuit that if mans law graunt that yet Gods law forbideth that VVhether S. Chrysostom and S Gregorie allowed Preists Mariadges 139. I graunt as before is sayd in the 133. number Fitzsimon that to forbidd marriage as damnable is vnlawfull and heretical and diuelish which is not done by vs as there appeareth but in ould tyme was done by Tatian Marcion and Manichee and lately by such of whom afterward Secondly S. Chrysostom telleth you that the cause why the husband of one wyfe may be Bishop and not of more then one is That he who had more then one cna neuer be good instructer or master of the Church who might not perseuer in loue toward his wyfe she being dead So that it is supposed the wyfe should be dead from affection toward whom kept or violated the one might be elected Bishop and not the other he to be Bishop who conserued such affection and not he who had reiected it Also in the 136. number other answer is found that a marryed man liuing absque vlla suspicione carnalis commercij without any suspition of carnal compagnie may not only be Bishop after his wyfes death but also during hir lyfe Thirdly S. Chrysostom him selfe answereth in forme to your argument saying Dixit vnius vxoris virum non ea ratione vt id nunc in Ecclesia obseruetur S. Chrysost hom 2. de patientia Iob. oportet enim omni castitate Sacerdotem ornatum esse He sayd the husband of one wyfe not so as that now should be obserued in the Church for a preest must be adorned with all chastitie Certainly I do not beleeue that a man might be more often discomfited by his owne conforts then it hapeneth to my Antisophist For here the gowlden mouthed S. Chrysostom brought to auouch marriage of Preests is found most repugnant therto as euer befor also the lyke was done toward S. Chrysostom and all others Let vs inquyre whether he thriueth better in the confort out of S. Gregorie First to my thinking he should not because I remembre to haue redd in S. Gregorie S. Greg. l. 6. c. 1. in lib. reg Errare eos qui propter verbum Pauli vnusquisque vxorem suam habeat putant licere Ecclesiasticis vxores habere Them to erre who for the speeche of S. Paul Let euery on haue his wyfe thinke it lawfull for Church men to haue wiues Secondly to my thinking in saying S. Gregorie to be ours and that he mantayneth marriages not to be dissolued according to Gods law is to confesse that he him selfe had not sayd truely befor in saying the ould Fathers to be his frends or that our doctrin condemneth
preface in effect which was concealed by M. Rider PRouoked to proue ether by Scripturs or Fathers which liued within the compasse of the first fiue hundred yeares after Christs ascention that the priâ—atiue Church and Catholicks of this tyme are of consent â—uching these Articles 1. That Christ is realy in the B. Sacrament 2. That Scripturs should not be perused by the vulgar 3. That prayer for the dead and purgatorie was beleued 4. That Images were worshiped and prayers made to Saincts 5. That masse was allowed 6. That the supremacie of the Pope was aknowledged AT this only entrance the whole residue was brought to a demurr or adiurned to another tearme or as M. Rider â—â—armeth it to a writt or rescript Which adiurne or rescript as â—et depriuing the world of the sayd preface I thought coÌ„uenieÌ„t to â—eliuer the purport therof in few words Prouoked sayd I to â—roue by Scripturs or Fathers the forsayd articles I perceaued â—â—y challengers to haue pervsed the prouocations of Iuel as famous or calling these maters into question as Herostratus for burning â—he temple of Diana remembred only by infamie For Laurence â—umphrey the great Doctor of Oxford Humphred in vita Iuelli pag. 212. writing the lyfe and comâ—endation of Iuel omitted not to reprehend and reproue him for â—â—ch vaine and vnaduised appeale to the Fathers in these controâ—ersies Saying Quid enim rei nobis cum Patribus VVhat haue we to do â—ith the Fathers He could not be ignorant that in all the volums of â—â—e Fathers nothing is treated but what we professe nothing â—â—mmended or condemned but what we commend or condemne â—nd who could haue any distrust therof but such as could not â—ehould light in the sunne or water in the sea â—â— This made Luther in defiance of the Fathers to exclame I â—re not yf a thousand Austins a thousand Cyprians a thousand Churches stood â—gainst me Hierom doth cheefly angre me Quia tantum de ieiunio de deâ—ctu ciborum de virginitate scripsit Si hoc saeculo viueret nos planè damnaâ—â—t For he wryteth only of fasting and choise of meats and virginitie Yf he â—ued in this age he would playnly condemne vs. Which is a playne confession and the cause therof not concealed Luth. to 2. pag. 340. Colloq conuiual c. de patribus Colloq Ger. de Schol. Theol. Fol. 499. Gregorie was deceaued by the deuil Origenem iam olim excommunicaui Chrysostomum nullo loco habeo nihil est enim nisi loquaculus Basilius planè nihil valet totus est monachus I haue long since excommunicated Origen I disdayne Chrysostom for he is nothing els but a babler Basil is altogether of no accompt he is wholy a monck Cal. l. 3. Instit c. 5. n. 10. Beza â—p 8. theolog 81. in tract de trip episco genere ad Scotos circa an 1579. Zuing. tom 1. in explan art 64. Fol. 107. P. Mart. de votis pag. 50. 477. 490 476. Baleus in pref Act. Rom. Poâ—tif Muscul in loc con de Scrip. sacr pag. 164. 165. Secondly Caluin saith of the Fathers generaly Abrepti fateor in errorem suerunt They were borne away in errour Thirdly Beza saith They followed Paganisme for a rule The Fathers in the Concil of Nice vnderlayd the seat of the harlot that sitteth vpon seueâ— mowntayns Fowrthly Zuinglius The Fathers yea forsooth the Fathers haue so professed but I alleage to the no fathers or mothers but the woord of God Fiftly Peter Martyr whom they of Zurick sent to plante protestancie in England which by hauing him saith Bale was happie and by wanting him was vnhappie confesseth As long as we remayne in Concils and Fathers we will abyde euer in the same errours Sixtly Musculus Planè stolidissimus est vel studiosè malignus in ecclesian Dei quisquis Patrum calculis conscientias fidelium obstringendas censet He is playnly most foolish or wittingly malitious against the Church of God who would bynde the consciences of the faythfull according the resolutions of the Fathers Cartur l. 1. pag. 513. pag. 154. lib. 2. p. 507. 508. lib. 1. pag. 88. lib. 2. p. 502. 303. lib. 1. p 94. p. 103. p. 98. lib. 2. p. 622. Seuenthly Cartwright Seeking in the Fathers wrytings is a raking in ditches a mouing and sommoning of hell a measuring of trueth by the crooked yard of tyme. The Fathers imagined fondly they deall lyke ignorant men they were mastered by their passions they had many errours Clement Anaclet and Anicet are discharged for rogues and men burnd in the forheads Damasus spoke in the dragons mowth Ambrose houldeth many things corruptly and many errours and violently inforceth the text there is no sinceritie to be looked for at Hieroms hands Augustins sentence is approued vnaduisedly and therby a window is open to bring in all poperie Ignatius was a counterfet and vayne man c. Causeus dial 5. 8. 11. 8. Causeus Dionisius was but a doting foolish pernicious dreamer Clement a spreader of drosse and dreggs Ignatius an idle trifler Disp Albe Iulie in Actis 8. diti de Hi roÌ„ Vide Bazam in Aâ—tâ— Ap. c. 23. 2. ad Thes. 2. annot 3. 2. ad Timoth 3. annot 8. 1. Cor. 7. annot 1. 9. 28. Ireneus a fanatical wryter Cyprian blockish and reprobat Nazianzen a babler Ambrose bewitched by the deuil Hierom no lesse damned then Lucifer c. Lastly Alba Iulia Disputation Nobis cum illis nihil est commune VVe haue no participation with the Fathers 31. These are the cheefe Reformers I could fynde in the world and of all sorts the very principal of LutheraÌ„s Caluinians Zuinglians PuritaÌ„s Adiaphorists Polimorphians c. Had not M. Rider occasion to coÌ„ceal this preface wherin al aforsayd Reformers giue verdict against him that he is let no man thinke these reproaches to be myne bound by his clayme to haue the Fathers his fauourers 〈◊〉 abyde still in errour that he is playnly moost foolish and wittingly maliâ—â—use against the Church of God c. Who can blame him to affirme 〈◊〉 is preface to be bitter and byting And who can disblame him â—â—r imputing the bitternes therof from the wolues to the lambs â—â—om the kytes to the chicken that is from them selues to vs Yf â—â—y vntruely would defeat vs of our right the least we can be â—â—lowed to doe is to produce our euidences to disproue them No â—ore is now done by vs. Yf the Fathers be for Protestancy or â—gainst it lett all the world now freely determyne I make but 〈◊〉 is dilemma or two edged argument yf the Fathers by all proâ—â—staÌ„ts be coÌ„fessed their aduersaries how are they their approuers â—â—r yf they were approuers how are they so vnreuerently and â—â—sdainfully mistermed vnles you thinke according trueth that 〈◊〉 your consociats deserue no other treatment â—â— In your first line you chaunge a woord and for or Rider which greatly altereth â—e Catholickes question
you change the singular number for the plurall sacrament for sacraments 6 Sixtlie you quite leaue out two wordes of great consequence communis and 〈◊〉 7 Seuenthlie you adde this word Blessed which is not in the Author 8 Eighthlie you point it not right considering the Authour spake it onelie by way of interrogation Which premisses are faultes great and grosse which sheweth plainlie that you neâ—â—â— reade the Author himself but borrowed them forth of some other mans papers therfore you sin grieuously in perswading mens consciences to take there things at your hands for truth faith when indeed you tender them nothing but things â—â—â—sled from all faith and trueth Now Gentlemen doe you deale plainlie with the world in bringing this plaâ—â— against vs did euer anie of vs denie that Christ was borne of the virgin Marie and conceiued by the holie Ghost you cannot charge vs with it Did euer anie of 〈◊〉 teach that Christs bodie was phantasticall neither did you euer heare it Then in this as in the rest you wrong vs deceiue the Catholickes and abuse Leo sometime Pope But I will shew you plainlie that this Bishoppe of Rome and this your proofe confutes and confounds your owne opinion and confirmes ours Reade page 7. 8. in the same Epist where he bringes in the Sacraments of Redemption of Regeneration First Leo saith the truth of Christs bodie and bloud is in both the two sacrament as well in Baptisme as in the Lords Supper and as he is reallie in the other and what presence of Christ is in the one sacrament there is the like presence in the other as hath been prooued before But least this would maâ—â— the fashion of your transubstantiasion and carnall presence therefore you transâ—â—â— it sacramentum in the singuler number not sacramenta in the plurall Secondlie you haue left out two words communis fidei of common faith becâ—â—â—â— no man should see it was then as Catholick opinion to beleeue that the truth of Chriâ—â— bodie and bloud was as reallie in Baptisme as in the Lord Supper yet in both spirituallie in neither corporallie But you will say I abuse the Reader because Leo neuer spake of this word spiritual or spirituallie and therfore I wrong both the Author and Reader I answere as 〈◊〉 the prophet answered Achab the king when he told Eliah that he troubled Israel 〈◊〉 saith the Prophet it is thou and thy Fathers house that haue troubled Israell in that you haue forsaken the commandement of the Lord 1. Kâ—nge 18.17.18 and followed Balaam So Gentlemen it is not I that wrong the Author that is dead or the people that yet liue but it is you and your confederates that followe Balaam of Rome God keep you free from folowing Balack of Spaine and that the Reader shall see I will prooue that Leo ioyneth with vs and we with him and both of vs with Christs truth against your trash I will make him speake in his owne defence and vtter that which you concealed It followeth immediatlie after your profe in the next immediat words after this maner In the same page quia in illa mystica distributione spiritualis alimoniae hoc impartitur vt accipientes caelestis tibi in carnem ipsius qui caro nostra factus est transcamus Because that in the mysticall distribution of that spirituall food this is giuen and receiued that we which receiue the vertue of the heauenlie meat wee passe into his flesh which was made our flesh Gentlemen this you should haue added to your former for the Authour ioyned them togither the one to accompanie the other in Gods seruice and in deed the latter to expresse the former But now let vs out of this but compare the old doctrine of the old Bishoppes of Rome and the doctrine of the moderne Popes and his Chaplens 1 The old Bishops of Rome said the food in the sacrament was spirituall and heauenlie the late Popes Iesuits and Priests say that it is carnall and materiall 2. The old Popes said the distribution of that spirituall food was misticall you say presbiteriall 4 They said in ould times that the worthie receiuers of this spirituall meat were transformed into Christ his flesh The late Popes and you his Ecchoes say no But the sacramentall bread and wine are transsubstantiated and transnatured into Christs flesh and bloud The Bishop of Rome brought in this to prooue Christs humanitie conceiued by the holie Ghost and borne of the virgin Marie against heretickes who taught the Christs bodie wa phantasticall And you alleadge the same place to prooue Christs humanitie to be made by a sinfull ignorant Priest that of bread and so contrarie to Scripture and Creed will recreate Christ of a new matter which is as blasphemous and hereticall The olde Bishoppes and Church of Rome held So Tertull. contrâ— Marcion lib. 4. that the Sacraments could not be true signes of Christs bodie vnlesse he had a true bodie and because thy were true signes therfore Christ had a true bodie And the late Popes and Popelings teach that Christs bodie is made a new of the signes and so confoundeth the signes with Christs bodie and in deed maintaineth heresie as grosse as the Manicheans For they held that either he had no bodie or a phantasticall bodie And you hold that there be no signes in the Sacraments but that they are transubstantiated into Christs bodie and bloud And so Christs bodie is dailie made of a peece of bread Iohn 6. which must needs be a bodie phantasticall not a true bodie as our Creed witnesseth And as in the manner of eating Christs bodie you disagree not much from the Capernaits so in the case you differ not much from the Manicheis Now will I say as the painfull owner of the vineyard said Isaie 5. 3â— Now therefore oh you inhabitants of Ierusalem and men of Iudah iudge I pray you between me and my vineyard So oh you Inhabitants of this worshipfull Cittie of Dublin and you loyall subiects of Ireland and all the learned and well minded of both England and Ireland iudge I pray you charitablie yet trulie betwixt me and these my aduersaries And if you refuse to censure vs and this our conference according to the truth then I say as Dauid said to Saul The Lord bee iudge between thee and me 1. Sam. 24.13 so the Lord be iudge betwixt vs whether of vs haue more trulie and with greater sinceritie of truth and conscience behaued our selues in this matter for his glorie discharge of our owne consciences instruction and saluation of the Catholickes The last parte of the Second proofe Concerning S. Leo. Fiâ—zsimon 117. MAister Rider as the hare is wonte befor he seate him selfe in his forme had a great desyre to strayne him selfe to greater leaps and girds toward the ende Yet all will not serue As farr as my remembrance serueth me Sidneis Arcadia I reade in Sr. Phillip Sidneis
hee scorne your brotherly admonition that bragge is a good dogge more tongue then teeth more talke then truth But you must needs deale with him by writing for otherwise in words he is too hard for a huÌ„dreth of you for you shall finde him old dogge in copia verborum and inopia rerum And thus hoping after your counsaile hee will leaue his woonted gadding rouings from the matter and follow me closely in euery line word syllable and letter as I haue and will doe him Christ willing I commend you him to the blessing of our mercifull God whom I beseech for his Christs sake so to touch your hearts from heauen that you all may renounce your new poperie and feare God in Christ with vs according to his Euangelical truth From my house in Saint Patricks Close this 30. of March 1604. Yours so farre as you are Christ and the Kings readie to treble these kindnesses IOHN RIDER A faâ—t escaped in the print namely quo for qua page 7 line 16. Tit. 14. Vpon the residue of the Rescript to the ende 14. NVllam authoritateÌ„ habet vti qui damnatus est daÌ„nat Fitzimon sayth Seneca his iudgmeÌ„t hath noe authoritie Sen. ep 77. wher he condemneth that is condeÌ„ned This sentence M. Rider hath not only force but ineuitable violence many wayes against you You pretend two hondred errors yet shew none and are besyd condemned by publick authoritie what credit wil be giuen by Catholicks to your words when Protestants discredit you The two hondred errors are but the spotts of cownterfet bloude vpon Iosephes coate Gen. 37. whom Iacob after will fynde vnspotted and know the deceitfull enuiouse brethren to haue bene as treacherouse in selling him as in lying to their parent by his coate And as for the point of miracles I beleeue it to be so aunswered as that M. Rider will blame no further want therof That I did not follow your counsell was the same mercie of God toward me which was toward the late named Ioseph that he followed not the allurements of his adulterous mistres S. Cyprian in conc Carthagin your reformations being a disloialtie toward the spouse of the Church and deuorcing your selues as concubins from trueth to follow licentious sects and errors Roboams example shall make me neuer to follow 3. reg 12.3 the yong mens conseil that is them that are vpstarts in religion such as straying are turned into vayne talke desyrouse to be Doctors of the law 1. Tim. 1.7 not vnderstanding nether what things they speake nether of what they affirme I haue chosen for my cownselor the woord of God to be my compase and card in his holy arke by which I learne to diuert and plye from you as from the rocks and shelfs of certain ruine by these sea marks following placed at your entrie Obserue those that make dissensions and scandals contrary to the doctrin which you haue learned Rom. 16.17 1. Ioan. 2.24 Galat. 1.9 Hebr. 13.9 Rom. 16.17 That which you haue heard from the beginning let it abyde in you Yf any preach otherwyse then you haue alreadie receaued be it accursed Be not mislead by variable and strange doctrins Auoyd them for such do not serue Christ our Lord but their owne bellie and by sweete speeches and benedictions seduce the harts of innocents By thes cownsels I was preuented from being cownseiled by you Auolent quantum volent paleae leuis fidei Tertull. l. de prescrip quocunque afflatu tentationum Let the chaff of light fayth be borne away as farr as they list with euery breath of tentation let the blinde be guided by the blinde Mat. 15 14. into the same snare let wauering children be caried abowt with euery wynde of doctrin Ephes. 4.14 in the wickednes of men in craftines of the circumuention of error Let the denyers of knowing Christ his woorde blush Mar. 8.38 Luc. 9.26 Ecclâ— 6.10 shrinke to acknowledg him in this adulterous and synfull generation let the trenchoure frend depart in tyme of tribulation Isa 51.12 2. Tim. 2.12 Mat. c. 10.38 c. 16.24 Luc. 9.23 c. 14.27 let the timorouse for a mortall man that is to wither as haye forget his maker As for me I hope to raigne with Christ therfor I know I must sustaine with Christ I pretend as a disciple to follow Christ therfor I must take vp my crosse hate my father and mother Mar. 8.38 Luc. 9.26 2. Tim. 2.12 wyfe and children brethren and sisters yea and my owne lyfe in comparison of him I attend not to be denyed of Christ before God and his angels 2. Tim. 4.8 therfor I know I must not deny him or be ashamed of him befor men I aspire to a crownee of iustice therfor I must indeuoure to fight a good fight Rom. 8.39 to consummat my course to keepe my fayth For conclusion I say that nether death nor lyfe nor angels nor Principalities nor powers 1. Cor. 10.13 nor things present nor things to come nether might nor height nor depth nor other creature by the mercie helpe of my faitfull God that will neuer suffre vs to be teÌ„pted aboue our power shal be able to separat me from the charitie of God which is in Christ Iesus our Lord nor to conforme me to the cownsaile of the reformed sedition You affirme that you must deale with me in print and not by woord Prou. 6.2 because I am to hard for a hondred in speech I say that illaqueatus es verbis oris tui captus proprijs sermonibus you are ingaged by the woords of your owne mowth and taken by your owne talke You can not conceale the confusion you had euer in talking with me when at euery woord I disproued and disturbed your conceits which yow heedfully prouided to happen most seldome and spedely to be abrupted I do but appeale to M. Tristram Eccleston Constable of the Castle whether it was so or noe Yf he will not disgrace his goss sip at least M. Alderman Iyans M. Luke Shee esquyer and others can tell the plundge you and Minister Baffe wallowed in at our last meeting So then to God be the glorie and neuer to me you felt the brunt of my woords at that tyme by your owne confession to be irrefragable As for the print you prouided not to tast how it would haue proued but how you should haue felt it yf you would haue indured the trial I leaue to be iudged now that I might without you permission make it knowen What or how much or how litle that wil be to your proffit I trust at lyke opportunitie you will certifie as you haue now done of my woords To perclose the whole and to conclude the late points pertinently in token that I ame not very selfe conceited as euer befor I haue desyred to speake rather in the woords of Scripture and Fathers then my owne so I will now
figurs and senseles shaddowes 7. It which hath a substantial and â—piritual sacrifice and sensible worshiping of God Sacrifice of the lamb of God by a heuenly â—â—blatioÌ„ of the very Sauior of mankynde for it which disclaymeth veritie substance and sustenance of such diuine and immaculat â—amb and his holy institution 8. It which hath Prelats and preists Prelats and preists Hebr. 5.2 Num. 16.3 separated froÌ„ the rest according to Gods sacred worde to offre gifts and sacrifices for offences for it which with Core Dathan and Abiron affirmeth that all the multitude is equaly sanctifyed toward those functions 9. Obedience to Princes It which commendeth and commandeth obedience to Princes and Magistrats not only for policie but also for conscience sake for it which wher it can preuayle trampleth authoritie trubleth dominions denyeth all other tribut then stroakes and canon shott 10. It which practiseth Gods commandements and works of charitie and professeth Gods commandements as easie and delytsome for it which fayth they are impossible and not belonging to Christians 11. It which hath a visible Church vniuersal for tyme and place A Visible Churche conformable first and last inuincible against infidels hereticks yea or deuils for it wich as a Platonical Idea or poetical chimera is forged in the ayre particular dissentiouse perishing 12. It that hath florished in Apostles Euangelists Martyrs Confessor Virgins Communion of saints and is holpen by them for it that derydeth and blasphemeth them and deface their remembrances O tymes ô maners what monstruouse absurdities haue you bred that a Christian mynde should once stand in consultation whether syde to Gods Church or heresies synagogue he should cleaue and adhere 43. But I satisfie my selfe that you are sufficiently informed and acquainted of and in the controuersie betwixt vs and that yf you be not wittingly miscaryed you fynde his freÌ„dly caueat a venimouse kisse from sugred lipps a wolueishe hypocrisie vnder a lambs contenance Gen. 3.5 2. reg 20. 10. Iosue 9. Isa 28. a cruel wound vnder pretext of a charitable medicine a serpentin narration to Adame and Eua a Ioabs salutation to Amasa a Gabaonit to Iosue and the Israelits counterfeting as the Gabaonits did a remot antiquitie and brefly as the prophet sayth one protecting him selfe and putting his hope in an vntrueth God of his infinit goodnes and according the multitude of his miserations inspire you to vnderstand the trueth inflame you to follow it and fortifie you to remaine perseuer in it Amen Your affectionat seruant to command in Crist THE EPISTLE OF THE AVTHOR TO MASTER IOHN RIDER WOrshipful M. Rider You haue this Aunswer yf later then expected yet I assure my selfe sooner then affected So that as an vngratefull guest it preuenteth all wellcome You might haue had it long befor but that your inuitation therof was conformable to the new requesting frends to meales with many capps and verbal â—urtesie but without intertaynment charitie or hospitalitie For you prouoked â—â—e to labour it but debarred me to publish it And noe merueile for you knew â—t to be that it is to wit a hand wryting to Balthazar Mane Thechel Phares Daniel to a licentiouse Iudge conuerting his iniquitie vpon his owne head And that I may not be a tedious reherser of what you feele better then I can expresse a Dauid to Goliath by his owne swoord beheading him and destroying tenn thowsand of his compagnions Not that I impute any woorth â—or weight to my cooperation therin but that the cause it defendeth is so inexpugnable as lyke a firme rock it crusheth them that fall on it and oppresseth them on whom it falleth You might haue bene thought wyse yf you had houlden your peace For men of your sorte hauing a negatiue religion are commonly satisfyed to carpe at our sayings without care to iustifie their owne and but by extremitie to specifie any positiue doctrin that they may haue libertie to change at will But you would be a more venturouse Caualiero then the residue let all the world iudge whether it was for any extraordinarie wysdome or sufficieÌ„cie if you who among thowsands were most vnfit haue professed playne decretal positions repugnant not only to all christianitie but which ordinarily by you is more esteemed to all your owne confraternie or rather because you continualy iarr to your confederated diuersitie So that many of your most iudicious surmisers mistrust that by some promised promotion of papists you had praeiudiced and in a maner betrayed your profession to infamie and derision of sett purpose by so discouering many defectiue articles and enorme absurdities therof which to our owne contryes can not choose but cause à dislyke yf not a loathsomnes and surfet and being notifyed to other contryes which had bene done yf I had not altered my purpose only for better concealing for what friuolous futilities the Catholick fayth in Christ Iesus is exchanged by wryting in our vulgar toung what I first intended to haue written in latin would produce in them ether a disdayne toward vs or deploration against our estate that so many good dispositions and otherwyse deepe capacities are so miserably miscaryed by so base and deceitfull delusions palpablie perceauable euen to winking eyes I assure you no mans death I know had bene vnto me more vnwished before this my awnswer published least it had bene suspected or excepted that I had imposed your owne printed assertions vpon your profession But my synceritie will appeare perspicuously by inserting your booke intirely and concordantly to your Dublinian edition which can not be imagined to haue bene a deede of any other then your selfe You haue great and sundrie causes to be thankfull for this my awnswer First because it displayeth seueral dangerouse errours by which you would haue eternally perished and now by reclayming them yf you please you may escape Secondly that by it the sharper reprehension and refutation of others who would and might more disdaynfully reproue you is perhapp anticipated and hindred Thirdly that for sparing fauor toward you many slips are indulgently dissembled and such as are detected in the most milde style that might possiblie belong to maters of lyke qualitie are prosecuted I cowld calculate others yf I attended deserued gratitude in one of your disposition or education Howsoeuer you will interpret kinde and beneficious offices I will incessantly implore Gods infinit mercie toward you and your complices that he would open your obstinat eyes and mollifie your hardned harts and mitigat his incensed wrath against you wherby you may vnderstand your errours abandon your heresies cease to diuide the Churche and scattre Christs Catholick flock being by so pretious redemption formerly vnited And finaly that being myndfull whence you are fallen you repent and returne to your first workes least your candlestyke be remoued and for want of true light fall into that infidelitie of all Christian religion which in Africk Grece and other places immediatly succeded opinions
â—ffirmations theyr ample disproofs frendly approbations imposing what they haue â—ot and denying what they haue VVhich vnchristian abuses pardon me M. Ryder in so cleere a mater besyds others I vndertake vnder any arbitrary â—naltie to auerre Againe brefly I craue all tergiuersation sett apart that 〈◊〉 the feare of God we may indefferently defende eache of vs the trueth of our â—â—ofessions not seeking victorie but veritie sine fuco fraude Lastly in my â—etter to him on new yeares day 1604. I inserted these woords lyke to this is your prouocation that I would come to issue Is it not my demande to Deputie College vpon promise of indifferencie Did I euer incountre you 〈◊〉 wryte to you but that I requyred it I therfore informe and resolue you that I couet with all speede it be effected c. 9. Neuerthelesse he blushed not to pretend all slacknes and tergiuersation to be in me How could he make it to any euen of them selues to seeme so Considering I had obliged my selfe to the state and College to obyde their appointment who might at will compell me to an incountre considering I was among and in the power of his frends of aduersaries in the highest degree to my profession and person from whom I could not start they hauing no intention to spare me in so much as they neuer vsed such restraints and wardings towards any criminal malefactor as toward me And lastly considering that I had vsed the former impulsions to come to a conference yet sayth he the fault was in you because you tendred me not a legible view of your wrytings which you intended to print according to your promise But who behouldeth not that a skillfull scholer should blushe to craue the knowledge of what was to be obiected against him yea who behouldeth not that M. Rider might blushe to make this the pretext of his relenting when he him selfe confesseth to haue receiued both what he sayth was promised and it also to be legible These are the words of such his confession The highest in the lande had a view of your scrowle and the Reuerendest and learnedest diligently perused the same Now I craue how could such view peruse and as after he affirmeth censure such tearmed scrowle yf it vvere not tendred or legible The highest in the lande are the state vvho commonly are not of the cleerest sight Who yf they censured vvhat vvas vnlegible M. Rider tearmeth them all in playne English but fooles These are his vvordes to such effect Such as will censure before they see are lyke such wyse men as will shoote their bowlt as soone at a bushe as at a bird By vvyse men ironicaly he taxeth them for fooles So that yf it were legible M. Riders long pretense is vtterly discredited and disproued Yf it vvere not yet censured as aforsayd M. Rider avvardeth the highest reuerendst and learnedst in the lande to be fooles Yf they take it not in ill parte I couet no other benifit therby then to haue my scrowle as it pleaseth him to call it to be knowen to haue bene legible 10. When my aunswer by him tearmed a Scrowle yet contayning neere two quyers of paper had bene so legible to him as greeued and graueled him to behould it and when he would â—ther permitt the printing therof and could not replye therto â—t in maner as after shall appeare he hearing that licence was â—me for my inlargement and fearing that I would discouer his â—ifts and fayntnes toward a disputation in all hast published a â—cond booke against me full of venimous rayling which he calâ—th Tarte tearmes wherin he trotteth and tottreth to a hondred â—ifts to purchase the peoples opinion that he was forward and â—solut to incowntre any aduersarie to his profession This late â—rt of grace he entertayned partly because he thought that I â—ould not hinder the benifit of such releasment of my fiue yeares â—durance by suche disputation partly because he had obserued a â—te willingnes in them of the College to saue and salue his repuâ—tion And therfor thought that I would not accept in that exâ—emitie to hazard my graunted departure by opposing my selfe 〈◊〉 any fauoured by the state Or yf I would that they of the Colâ—â—ge would plaster vp all his discredit by stretching fauoure and â—heir arbitremeÌ„t beyond right and conscience of which we will â—fter by Gods helpe treate more amply 11. In this confident surmise that I contrary to my custome would temporize in the heate I had euer professed toward mainâ—â—yning ReligioÌ„ and my profession he doubted not to affirme beâ—â—re the right worshipful Mayor of Dublin Iustice Palmar Capâ—â—yne Godl and others that he would come to the Castle in their â—â—mpagnie to challeÌ„ge me to my face Which by their importunat â—â—ouocation he hauing done accordingly the 4. of April 1604. he â—ound me contrary to his expectation full of facilitie toward such â—profre at the same instant and place And according the forâ—ardnes of my mynde I presented him a gold ring which he â—hould not deliuer me but when I effected all my promises for â—isputation Iudges c. He first very promptly accepted the ring â—ut suddenly his hart fayled in the forsayd assembly and of others â—f the gard of the castle amounting altogether to aboue a hounâ—red Sir Richard Cooke also out of his chamber in the castle beâ—ng â—riuie to all our proceeding and therupon vvould needes restore â—e the pledged gold ryng I vvould not receaue it and he vvould â—ot retayne it The right vvorshipful Mayor of the citie tooke it 〈◊〉 custodie leauing all Protestants ashamed of their champion It 〈◊〉 not yet long since this hapned in the sight of so many witnesâ—es that it may be well remembred and I am not so prodigal of my good name that I would forge in a mater subiect to such censures as mought and ought to insue an vntrueth of like qualitie yf it were not notorious and beyond all disproofe The forsayd Iustice Palmer the Captain and all the recidue publickly censured against him that what copie of my aunswer was deliuered to him could not be denyed ether to be legible or correctedly wrytten exclaiming against him that I so resolutly presenting to accompagnie him instantly to a Disputation to the very colledge he being knowne to haue long before allowance warrant from the State toward such Conference yet that he would not enter the lists but being publickly come to prouoke and the combat by his aduersarie being accorded vnto he lyke a Iubellio would to the dishonour of his cause flinche away and retyre most dastard lyke Suerly there was among the souldiours so great hissing of their champion after his departure and so great iealousie against the profession whervnto such sleights and acts of hypocrisie was the cheefe defense that 8. or 10. of them ther vpon shortly after came to be reconciled 12. The next day the Conceill sitting close vpon accompts M. Ryder for his credit sake hauing
attended till full dynner tyme to haue their allowance to dispute and not willing to depart befor he had motioned to the state what he intended toward our disputation he came vp at lengthe to dyne among vs prisoners Some gentle bickerings chanced betwixt vs about the angelical salutation to our our Lady in greeke He ad his fellow Balse in the presence of the Constable who I imagin wil not lightly lye on ether syde were fownd so exorbitantly confounded and disgraced that the Constable ashamed to impose silence cowld remayne no longer and M. Ryder according to his wonte sell from reason to rayling not sparing or respecting me more then his fathers sonns compagnion I was no lesse with him then a traytour foole lyer knaue c. 13. By this tyme the Lords of the Conceil were vacant and hauing dyned prepared them selues to giue audience to sutours M. Ryder before others propounded his demande Not to linger in or by any long relation of the circumstances it was generaly reproued and particularly by Sr. Iames Foulerton refuted in his allegations So that in a great rage he burst into the crye of Felix an owld heretick S. August l. 1. de gestis cum Felice cap. 12. related by S. Augustin Saying That he would be burned him selfe and his bookes yf any thing were written by him â—roneously These vvere his very vvoords But there vvas no â—ace there to boulster out his vanities In the ende sharply reâ—ked for his arrogancie tovvards them and ouer-matching him â—lfe and discrediting the cause hauing hardly escaped from prison conciling him selfe to me for his late insolent demeanure and questing me to shutt vp all variances he omitted till now to â—olest me further â—4 Because I had often promised to make our reciprocations â—nowen yf I might come to any conuenient place and because 〈◊〉 desier to iustifie such sentence of the state against our Puritan wherby they had disauowed him to be a lawfull proctour or â—duocat of their professioÌ„ and because also by my once being of that â—rofession I haue means to reueale much to others vnknowen â—herby truth may be manifested I haue thought good to puâ—ishe this Treatise following to the honour and glorie of God â—nd discharge of my dutie toward his immaculat and inuincible â—owse the Church to whose sacred doome or censure I resigne â—â—l my writinges past present and to come â—5 I affect a method breefe as the contents may allow breuitie â—eing an attendant on truth Playne without forrein tearms or â—ntricat conceits Curteous yf by means of the craggy knotts of â—ny woorke I be not inforced against my will from my planer â—o my axe Pithie with mater and woorke knowing malice and â—oords to attend on falshood conformably to which sayth the â—cripture Non est sensus vbi est amaritudo Eccli 21. There is noe sense where â—here is bitternes True also it shal be the cause belonging to Gods â—onour according as he sayth by his Prophet Ierem. 23. Iob. 13. He that hath my â—eeche let him speake it truely VVhat meaneth this strawe among wheat â—yth our Lord Numquid Deus indiget vestro mendacio vt pro illo loquamini â—olos Doth God neede your lye that for him you should speake â—eceits And therfore from my hart I make this protestation vsed by the Poet to another sense neuer to transgresse the bonds of â—ruth and fidelitie in all my discourse Virgilius Sed mihi vel tellus optem prius ima dehiscat Vel Pater omnipotens adigat me fulmine ad vmbras Pallentes vmbras Erebi noctemque profundam Ante Pudor quam te violem aut tua iura resoluam Virgilius Let lowest gulfe downe rather swallow me Or mightie God by thunder me detrude Among the darke and damned compagnie Before my shame I breake or truth delude 16. That I doe insert his whole booke proceedeth to confound him the more and to confute his thoughts that I durst not doe it and that none haue any excuse to forbidd my awnswer since that it is conioyned with his obiections without any woords substraction Also I haue the example therto of D. Harding against Iuel Stapleton against Horne c. Thirdly because truth neuer appeareth so brightly as when falshood is confronted therto That I add numbers to his obiections and my resolutions proceeded from playne meaning that when I attaynt him with any fault it may be found speedely by specifying at what number it is found Diuers such mates nether quote leafe nor chapter nor point to walke therby more confusedly and couertly For my parte ether by playne dealing I wil preuaile or not at all Let no man mistrust to fynde in ordinarie controuersies but ordinarie resolutions such maters and method being carefully by me followed as directly belong to the kernell of the cause more by shewing it rotten by inward reuolution of the Reformers them selues then by outward examinations of other reprehenders CATHOLICKE CONFVTATION OF M. IOHN RIDERS CLAYME OF ANTIQVITIE And first of the errours contayned in his Inscription or Title of his booke and of his Preface TO ALL ROMANE PRIESTS AND ALL OTHER OF ANIE OTHER ROmish order vntruly surnamed Catholicke Priests and to everie of them within the kingdome of Ireland IF the Irish Testament a godly laborious and profitable worke to Gods Church had not imbusied the Printers Presse long before this time M. Riders Preface my Friendlie Caueat had presented it selfe to your friendly censures I haue onelie handled the first position and could goe no further in the rest till the Printers returne from London with new letters and whereas there be some faults escaped impute them not to the skilfull Printer but to the stumpeworne letter for as weapons vnsteeled cut not so letters ouerworne print not I haue laid downe your prooffes and speeches touching the first â—osition not adding diminishing or altring one sillable or letter but as I receiued â—hem by a courteous Gentleman I thinke a Priest and as maister Henry Fitzsimon subscribed the same approouing them to be Apostolicall and Catholicke Your Preface concerneth nothing the matter in question so I haue â—eliuered them onely the Preface I scilence till I know your further pleasure â—ecause it is too byting and bitter relishing rather of malice then matter But if â—ou mislike with this scilence vpon the least notice my next Treatise shal maâ—ifest it to the world by way of a Postscript to which I will annex a Rescript And whereas your letter directed vnto me at first was subscribed in stead of your names Catholicke Priests I haue therefore not knowing your names Read Vincent Lyrinens aduersus haereses and you shal see what Catholick is giuen you â—ill the same titles But I must tell you plainlie you haue onelie the names without â—he trueth of the thing it selfe which vaine vsurped titles you must cast off vntil you can prooue your doctrine Catholick for a Catholicke opinion without aâ— Apostolical warrant
one costeth nothing but a dash of a â—nn and trauaile of toung the other requyreth great charges â—reat toyle great aduenture and great tyme. But in particular 〈◊〉 the vvandring matter vvithout vvandring It is the seuenth grosse vntruth that the Pope hath dravven 37. The 7. and 8. vntruth Catholicks to idolatrie It is the 8. vvhich in euery part of the â—ormer diuagation is contayned Some merry compagnions inâ—ended to make you M. Rider ridiculous to the vvorld Euery â—eane howse in Millan and Naples might be a howse competent â—or the mayor of your VVigen Euery Citisen is armed at his â—hoise Euery weapon long at will and pointed sharply Euery such poesie no point might passe for good English but not for â—ny frenche Nether do they speake frenche in those contryes Haue not these men much mynde to discusse a controuersie of â—he real presence that make prefaces so far wyde from it and â—ange rouing to Antiphonaries to prelats liues to whoores to Popes supremacie to the plotts of the K. of Spaine the habiâ—ations and weapons in Naples and Millan His preface being â—t large considered let my preface which he concealed haue liâ—ence to appeare aunswering this challenging letter wherby our â—isputation began â—8 I couet only at this tyme to premonishe the Reader conâ—erning the inscription of this letter S. August to 4. con mendac c. 6. that as S. Augustine sayd of â—uld hereticks Although they beleeue not the Catholick fayth yet they â—o speake as they may be taken to be of our profession euen so our new Euphrateans Iudicum 12.6 they would fayne passe for good Israelits but they can not pronounce Schiboleth that is they can not counterfett the style of Catholick but that they are discouered A FRIENDLY CAVEAT TO IRELANDS CATOLICQVES CONCERNING THE DAVNGEROVS Dreame of Christs corporall presence in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper grounded vpon a letter sent from the Catholicques c. To the reuerend Fathers the holy Iesuits Seminaries and all other Priests that fauour the holy Romane religion within the kingdome of Ireland HVmbly praieth your Fatherly charities Rider F. W. and P. D. with many other professed Catholicques of the holie Romane religion that whereas of late they haue heard some Protestant Preachers confidently affirme and as it seemes vnto our shallow capacities plainly do prooue that these positions here vnder written cannot be proued by anie of you to be ether Apostolicall or Catholicque by canonical Scripture or the auncient Fathers of the Church which liued and writ within the compasse of the first fiue hundred yeares after Christs ascension which assertion of theirs hath bred in â—our suppliaÌ„ts great doubts touching the trueth of the same vnlesse your fatherly â—ccustomed charities be extended presently to satisfie our consciences in the same â—y the holy written word of God such Fathers of the Church as aforesaid which being so directly and plainely proued by you as aforesaid may be a speedie meanes to conuert many Protestants to our profession Otherwise if these points â—annot be so proued by you vpon whose learned resolution we greatly relie then â—ot onely we but many thousands more in this kingdome of Ireland can hold â—hese points to be neither Apostolicall or Catholicque And thus hauing shewed â—â—me of our doubts we desire your fatherly resolutions as you tender the credit â—f our religion the conuincing of the Protestants and the satisfying of our poore â—onsciences And thus crauing your spedie learned and fatherly answeres in writing at or before the first of Februarie next with a perfect quotation of both â—cripture and Fathers themselues not recited or repeated by others for our better â—â—struction and the aduersaries spedier stronger confutation we coÌ„mend your â—ersons and studies to Gods blessed direction and protection Positions That Transubstantiation or the corporall presence of Christs bodie and bloud in the Sacrament was neuer taught by the auncient fathers that euer writ in the first fiue hundred years after Christs ascention but a spirituall presence onely to the faithfull beleuers 2 That the Church of God had not their seruice in an vnknowne tongue but in suâ—â— language as euery perticuler Church vnderstood 3 Thirdly that Purgatorie and prayers for the dead were not then knowne in God Church 4 Fourthly that images praying to Saints were then neither taught by theâ— Fathers nor receiued of the Catholicque Church 5 Fiftly that the Masse which now the Church of Rome vseth was not then known to the Church 6 Sixtly that there ought not to bee one supreame Bishop ouer all the world and the Bishop to be the Pope of Rome and that the said Pope hath not vniuersall iurisdiction ouer all Princes and their subiects in all causes Temporall and Ecclesiasticall The Protestant Preachers affirme vnles you prooue the premisses by canonical Scripture they cannot be Apostolicall there fore bind not the conscience of anie And if they cannot bee proued by the said Fathers then they be neither auncienâ— nor Catholike And therefore to be reiected as mens inuentions Gatho Priests PRouoked to prooue either by Scriptures or Fathers which liued within the comâ—â—â—â— of fiue hundred yeares after Christs ascention that the Primitiue Church and Catholicques of this time are of consent touching these Articles 1 That Christ is really in the blessed Sacrament 2 That scriptures should not be perused by the vulgar 3 That praier for the dead and Purgatorie was beleeued 4 That images were worshipped and praiers made to Saints 5 That Masse was allowed 6 That the supremacie of the Pope was acknowledged Rider Maister W. N. GEntlemen the cause of this your prouokement was a quiet and milde conference vpon these positions with an honorable Gentleman and a speciall good friend of yours concerning religion wherein he confidently affirmed that the Iesuits ond Romane Priests of this kingdome were able to prooue by Scriptures and Fathers these Positions to be Apostolicall Catholicque And that the Church of Rome add the Romane Catholicques in Ireland now hold nothing touching the same but what the holy Scriptures and primitiue Fathers held within the first fiue hundred yeares after Christs ascention Now yf you in this conference for your part haue made such proofe by the holy canonicall Scriptures and such Doctors of the Church as aforesaid I haue promised to become a Romane Catholicque if you haue failed in your proofe which I am assured you haue done he likewise before worshipfull witnesses hath giuen his hand to renounce this your new doctrine of the church of Rome and become a professor of the gospel of Christ This was the occasion and maner of your prouokement which I hope the best minded will not mistake nor you misconter being onelie prouoked by your friend 1. Pet. 3.15 yea and faith if you refuse not Saint Peters counsell to be readie alwais to giue an answere to anie man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you The
and is farrefrom our first meaning For we hold with â—hrists trueth that vnlesse the written word of God first warrant it we are not â—ound in conscience to beleeue it though all the Doctors and Prelates in the â—orld should sweare it VVhether it be not all one to say Scripturs or Fathers to be for any opinion as to say the Scriptures and Fathers to be for the same â—2 I Confesse that M. Rider came to me the 2. Octob. 1602. Fitzimon to reclaime his resignation of these controuersies to Scripturs or Fathers seueraly resoluing not to accept the Fathers for arbitrers vnlesse they had the scripturs â—onioyntly concurring with them A poore retraict First because â—â—y promise and all his printed books he had appealed to them â—ot conioyntly but seueraly Secondly because it is a seelye â—magination to thinke they may be seperated S. Aug. con Pelag. l. 2. c. 10. For S. Augustin â—weetly according to his maner instructeth all Christians to â—now concerning the Fathers Quod inuenerunt in Ecclesia tenuerunt â—uod didicerunt docuerunt quod à Patribus acceperunt hoc filijs tradiderunt That which they fownd in the Church they retayned that which they learned â—hey tawght that which they receaued of their fathers that they deliuered to â—heir children And consequently what the Apostles recaued of Christ they deliuered to their successours their successours to their scholers their scholers to their disciples c. Which as it is conformable to the Apostle S. Paul Ephes. 4.12 so is it perfectly confirmed by him saying God to haue giuen Apostles Euangelists Pastours and Doctors to the coÌ„summation of the holy vntill we all meete in vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God that is that he had giuen such instructers as by true and lawfull discent and succession should informe the ages succeeding one another in one faith and knowledge of one God vntill the first midle and last be gathered into the flock of Christ And as the later should receaue from the former Baptisme and other Sacraments so also should they receaue all other truth which would be infallible vnto theÌ„ yf they would not leaue their forefathers to follow their owne braynsick nouelties D. VVhitg lib. 2. pag. 353. 507. 508. Therfor VVhitgift worthely exclaimed at the Puritans excepting against the Fathers as being wresters and sorcers of the text the Scripturs not hauing any other searchers defenders conseruers but them Therfor also Caluin worthely taxeth their presumption Cal. in trac Theol. p. 471. who vnreuerently insinuated the Fathers did disagree from scripturs they hauing from hand to hand of their predecessours receaued the vnderstanding of them they hauing by infinit labours expownded them they hauing by vertue of them planted Christianitie excluded idolatrie Beza epist 81. pag. 384. surmouÌ„ted heresie Therfor Beza worthely imputeth it to ignorance impudence and impietie to diuorce or sequester Scripturs and Fathers or to affirme where the Scripturs are or Fathers there they can be seueraly or otherwyse then only conioyntly So that from first to last who haue Fathers they must haue Scripturs and contrarywyse And consequently M. Rider first and last remayneth alyke ingaged But to make it euident to the most repining and sparing conceit toward my allegations that I neuer changed or for and and that all this is a friuolous fals cauill pretext who doth not know that the ground and fundation of M. Riders clayme was but a repetition and borowing of the owld impudent protestation of Iuel In which not and but or is contayned in all the articles it being sayd ether by Scripture or by the example of the primatiue Churche or by the owld Doctors or by the ancient Generall Concils And yf any be able to proue any of these articles by any one cleare or playne clause of ether Scripturs or of the ould Doctors or of any ould general Concils or by any example of the primitiue Church within 600. yeares after Christ I promise to giue ouer and subscribe So that I disproue hereby M. Rider not only by his owne printed booke but by his original copie whence as he tooke the same clayme so he ought to haue taken the same conditions And therfor whether he wil or nill he must stand that not but him selfe and his Iuel haue vndone him by or â—â—d not and. â—â— And this was demanded of you not as the demanders doubted that the â—â—nonicall Scriptures were insufficient to prooue any article of faith but onelie â—at all men might see and so be resolued whether the Protestants or the now Roâ—ane Catholiques ioyne neerest to Christs trueth and the faith of the first primitiue â—thers VVhether all beleefe be contayned in the written woord of God â—3 ALl the proofe brought by M. Rider Ioan. 10.31 so to perswade vs is only in these woords But these things are written that you may beleeue that Iesus is the Sonn of God and that beleeuing you may haue lyfe in his name Good Lord â—hat inference is this Hebr. 11. the things written serue to beleeue in Christ therfor all beleefe is written By S. Pauls declaration â—bel Enoch Noê Abraham Isaac Iacob c. had vndoubtedly Faith â—et they had nothing of Scripture written Secondly all the primitiue Church had noe parcel of the new Testament at least ten â—earesafter Christ wil you say they had no faith or were not â—ound to beleeue Thirdly the Creed of the Apostles Vide P. CottoÌ„ de sacrif contre Caille predicaÌ„t Gallice pag. 122. 126. 127. the consubstantialitie of the Trinitie the procession of the holy Ghost â—he perpetual virginitie of our Ladie the baptising of children â—he not rebaptizing of them by hereticks baptised the breaking of â—he sabaoth and keeping of sunday the obseruation of Easter in â—he Christian and not in the Iewish maner the receauing of the Sacrament fasting the eating of blood and strangled meat prohibited in the Acts the not marrying of the sister in law after the â—rothers death without heyres and especialy I would know of â—ur protestants allouing women to sing psalms in the Church vnless they build it vpon some tradition true or false how tremble â—hey not to contradict the prohibition therof by the Apostle 1. Corinth 14. 1. Timoth. 2. Wher fynde you these points of beleefe which are beleeued in the whole Church and some of them contrary to Scripturs nor in any â—cripture contayned Therfor that the Scripturs alone are sufficient to proue euery â—â—rticle of beleefe to concurr with you once in a grammarian sentence is qui nil dubitat nil capit inde boni he that thinketh so vpon better consideration may now thinke and say otherwyse Are not these people easily perswaded to haue good proofs foâ— their professioÌ„ when they caÌ„ coÌ„fute vs about the name of Catholick by Vincentius Lyrinensis about the Popes supremacie by S. Bernard and now about traditions by this text here alleaged Doth M. Rideâ—
true bread of life which as farre excelled Manna as the soule the bodie life death eternitie time and heauen earth NOw let vs see according to which of Christs natures 3. Point he is called our liuing Bread whether according to his manhood or godhead or both Christ calls this bread his flesh and Christ and his flesh are al one and therefore Christ and his flesh are all one and the same bread and as our bodies are fed with materiel bread so are our soules fed with the flesh of Christ and this flesh hee will giue for the life of the world which flesh is not Christs bodie separated from his soule as some of you imagine and vntruelie teach nor Christs bodie and soule separated from his diuinitie but euen his quickninge flesh which being personally vnited to his eternall spirit was by the same giuen for the life of the world not corporallie and really in the Sacrament as you vntruly teach But in the sacrifice of his bodie and bloud once on the crosse as the Scriptures record for the flesh of Christ profiteth not but as it is made quickning by the spirit Neither do we participate the life of his spirit but as it is communicated vnto vs by his flesh by which we are made flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone as hath bin shewed before Which holie misterie is represented vnto vs in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper and the trueth thereof assured and sealed in the due administration and receiuing of the same So this true bread spoken of in the sixt of Iohn which hath this spirituall quickning and nourâ—shing power is compleate Christ God and man with all his soule sauing merits And neither Manna in the wildernesse nor your round Wafer cakes vppon your supposed hallowed Altars Manna it could not be for it ceased manie hundred years before Your imagined and transnatured bread it could not bee because the Sacrament was not then instituted And so to the third point The manner how this true bread Christ must be eaten 3. Point THe meat is spirituall and therefore the manner of eating must not bee corporall for such as is the meat such must be the mouth but the meat is spirituall therefore the mouth must be spirituall as before you haue heard Fide non dente In the epistle to the Reader c. which thing being there handled befor out of holy Scripture Fathers and your Popes Canons I wille onelie referre you thither where you may vnlesse you bee malecontents be fully satisfied toucheing the true manner of eating Christ where you may find proued out of Gods booke that comming to Christ beleeuing in Christ abiding in Christ dwelling in Christ and to be clad with Christ and to eate Christ are all one so that out of everie one you might frame this or the like vnaunswerable argument How sacred Scriptures are exorbitantly depraued Fitzimon 37. ALas what miserie and impietie is euery lyne fraught with all in this his exposition Considre but how many falsifications of the text are here vsed First that some belly-gods had moued question whether Moises or Christ were more liberal in feeding men Ther is no such mater Nether also their commending of Moises greatnes For only Christ lightly mentioned him the residue not thinking of him by owght appearing in Scripture Nether do they coÌ„mend the bread from the vertue of it but only tell that their Forfathers had eaten thereof without any further relation Nether doth Christ deny Manna to be true bread for ther is no such woord The fowrtenth vntrueth The 14. vntruth besyd others wincked at shal be registred by M. Rider against him selfe Here he saith that our doctrine is that the body must first feed on Christ corporaly so it should be to approach to trueth then the sowle shal be therby fedd spiritualy How is this saying sutable to these words in his preface You teache the communicants to receaue Christ with their mowthes corporaly not with their faith spiritualy You make your selfe ridiculous by such palpable contradiction that we teache and that we do not teache Christ to be receaued spiritualy that we teache only corporaly and yet that we teache first corporaly after spiritualy Would not any other display all the figurs of rhetorick against this figure of a learned man He telleth after that Christ and his fleash are all one and all one bread yet will he tell you presently that nether of bothe are any bread at al. Next that some of vs teache Christs fleash to be Christs body separated from his sowle A fowle vntrueth and the fowler that vntestifyed after so many promises to haue all our dealings published by our owne prints books leaues lynes c. Then that the fleash of Christ proffiteth nowght but as it is quickned by the Spirit This he him selfe shall testifye to be the fifteenth vntrueth in these woords The 15. vntruth Christ would receaue a bloody speare into his syde before mans synne could be satisfyed This speare to haue pearced Christ after his death and not when his fleash was quickned by his Spirit is testifyed by S. Ihon saying that he had then deliuered vp his Spirit Ioan. 19. a v. 31. ad 35. the Iewes had informed Pilat of his death the Sowldiours Vt viderunt eum iam mortuum non fregerunt eius crura Sed vnus militum lancea latus eius aperuit when they beheld him dead they did not breake his thighes But one of the Sowldiours with a lance opened his syde Now make vp these two together that Christs fleash withowt his Spirit proffiteth nothing and yet that mans synne cowld not be satisfyed but after Christs fleashe was separated from his Spirit and then pearced I neuer in my lyfe nor I thinke any other noted such implications before in any booke hitherto printed But yet ther followeth more That we do not coÌ„municat the life of Christs Spirit but by his flesh Is not this to coÌ„tradict all benifit fullfilled to the Patriarches by Christs discension of Spirit without his fleashe Then saith he what is spiritual can not be receaued by a corporal maner Was ther euer any thing more contrarie to Diuinitie philosophie or reason First faith is spiritual yet it is by hearing Rom. 10.17 which is a corporal maner Regeneration is spiritual yet it is by maner of a corporal washing Yea God is a most spiritual Spirit yet the Apostle coÌ„mandeth vs to beare him in our bodyes 1. Cor. 6. Contrarywyse Christs birth his body made inuisible his issueing out of his sepulchre his entring among his shut disciples walking on the sea his ascension were verlye corporal yet the maner was not corporal but spiritual So that nether spiritual gifts are continualy conioyned with spiritual maners but often with corporal and corporal gifts often conioiyned with spiritual maners The sowle of man is a spiritual forme and not material and yet it is receaued
by impossibilitie or impediment any is debarred from eating him they may be saued by haueing intention to discharge their duty therto at conuenient opportunitie All that eate of the consecrated hoast worthely for if vnworthely it is their damnation they shal be saued vnlesse by their owne wickednes they depriue themselues of the benifit therof This was aunsweared before and to the same ould friuolous obiections the same resolution may suffise But in vayne of a Coocow is any new and variable song expected Verily if I did thinke that all readers of his booke did not plainly obserue his obiections and maters to be handled in a method worthy of all deploration by him to be hudled shuffled and iugled miserably disordredly intricatly erroneusly I would display it palpably But let vs not long interrupt him I am here challenged to haue cutt by the wast and curtayled Christs woords Indeed I confesse when I intended to select breefe proofs out of scripture that my meaning was not to alleage whole books oâ— chapters of scripture as they are intierly each of them by their wryters deliuered Wherfor to affirme that I produced noâ— whole scriptures in that maner I confesse it willingly as also that by example of all wryters sacred and prophane I brought but such as seemed to me sufficient against my aduersaries In that sense I yeeld to haue cutt by the wast and curtailled scriptures But that I haue not competently for my mater deliuered testimonies of scripture or that I deceytfully concealed any disproofe therof to my cause or that any sillable of scripture contradicteth me which any other hath or may alleadge with modesty I may confidently denie What then if this reproache be found but a pretext to auoyde the brunt of the mater and vnder the shaddow therof not to haue weacknes discouered Front l. 2. c. 13. For so P. Claudius surmounted by his enemies yet putting vpp his flaggs of victorie came cunningly off and escaped his wondring foes And diuers expert Captains when they haue most will to retyre from imminent dangers they rayse fyers and smokes not wher they are but wher they are not purloyning theire forces in the meane time by darknes into their houlds yet neuer did any of them practise this skill more oft then my aduersarie He blameth me like as Goliath blamed Dauid 7. Reg. 17.43 that he had but few and weake weapons for bringing too litle against him that by the maske of such a challenge he may slylie remoue from what tormenteth his mynde and quite ouerthroweth his profession It appeareth by that insueth I had to proue that Christ gaue his body corporaly in the Sacrament and therto alleaged these woords of Christ the Bread that I will giue is my fleashe M. Rider finding that he could neuer deflect these woords to his figures and representations raised vp a mist or maske in repreheÌ„ding me for cutting by the wast curtailling subtracting pertinent scriptures which saithe he being brought the simplest had not bene deceaued I would fayne know of any â—ne in his perfect senses doth not what he hath supplied which I â—ad omitted rather confirme then infirme my beleefe I beleeue â—hat the B. Sacrament is Christ that discended from heauen and the sacred fleash which he was to giue for the life of the world the woords of Christ by him alleadged do confirme the same for â—e promised it should be his fleash which he would giue for the â—yfe of the world when he would giue them the bread here mentioned Are not therfor all Readers by M. Rider accompted no better then dunses when he persuadeth them that these woords are against our beleefe which of all others confirme it most for yf the bread which he would giue by him self in expresse tearmes be declared to be the selfe same fleash which he would deliuer in his passion for the lyfe of the world how is it not beleeued how is it sayd to be only a figure how is this sayd to be against vs But by this time it is knowen that there is no slandre in his tong nor any regard due to his talke as being one whom it satisfieth to haue sayd any thing it importeth not how litle to the purpose But Reader attend nether his words nor myne but beleeue thy owne eyes when thow mayest behould whether of vs telleth the trueth for I neuer said it to be only a figure appellation or representation I concurr in the same woords by Christ assured and vttered and follovv no imaginations or constructions of dreaming brayns misledd euen by their ovvne confessions by vncertain spirits as M. Rider doth Whether of vs then do these vvoords impugne A tubb is neuer so full of sound as vvhen it is emptiest so is not M. Rider more ful of noyize then vvhen he is destitut of all other mater for then florisheth he in his exceptions exclamations apostrophes c. as a meere circulator or tooth drawing phisitian vnder a baner of rotten teeth and impostumes when his stomach and purse are most emptie then he pleadeth and prateth most endlesly This also is the third time of replying these same obiections as appeareth in the 40. numbre He that hath no change may be allowed to turne and returne his coate One M. Sabinus Chamber on Christimas eaue last past 1604. gaue me vnder his hand that M. Rider defending vnder him for bachelershipp of arte in Oxford anno 1581. although he tooke in New Parke great paynes with him at the request of two of his owne awnts by whom M. Rider was releaued yet that he could neuer make entrance for M. Riders head into philosophie nor for philosophie into his head This forsayd gentleman is at this hower in place and accompt of great trust who to be better beleeued added this secret token that M. Rider contrary to the lawes of the vniuersitie proceeded master in the selfe same yeare of his bachelershipp not without periurie in his witnesses Meruayle not therfor that he wanteth varietie of arguments and knowledge especialy in the higher science of diuinitie when he could not enter in at the inferioure gate of philosophie which only leadeth to knowledge To the mater last rehearsed further aunswear is also giuen at the num 37. and 40. Rider 44. Christs flesh promised in the sixt of Ihon was onely giuen on the Crosse but the Sacrament was not the Crosse Therfore in the Sacrament the flesh of Christ was not giuen So that these arguments grounded vpon Christs owne words which you concealed confute you your carnall presence in the Sacrament For your Sacramental bread neither came from heauen nor your imagined flesh of Christ made by the Priest cannot be this flesh here spoken of For it was offered once not often as you teach and that by himselfe not by the Priests vpon the Crosse not in your Masse and that for the plenarie remission of the sinnes of all beleeuers not for the temporal benefit of
some perticuler persons quick or dead as the Priest pleaseth VVhether Christs woords teach Christs fleash to haue bene only giuen on the Crosse Fitzimon 44. THis argument auerreth effectualy the precedent attestations as being out of all the 19. moods and three figures allowed in philosophie For by haueing the medium or meane twyse in the predicato or later part of the propositions it should be in the second figure and being deformed in that figure it is excluded out of all the rest The deformation appeareth that the second proposition should haue bene and is not in this maner but the fleash of Christ in the Sacrament was not only giuen on the Crosse from which it varyeth by omitting all the former parte and exchangeing the being giuen on the Crosse into the being of a material Crosse The conclusion also is misshapen as which ought only to haue bene therfor the fleash of Christ in the Sacrament was not promised in the sixt of Ihon. Because I am Rom. 1.14 Debitor factus sapientibus insipientibus made a debtour to the learned and vnlearned I haue borrowed licence of the vnskillfull in Philosophie to haue in a start followed this mater in his kinde Now to the capacitie of all I aunswer to the first proposition The 19. vntruth that it is euidently the 19. vntrueth and against Christs expresse promise in the 6. of S. Ihon promising that besyd his giuing his flesh to be crucifyed he would also giue him selfe to be eateÌ„ of vs saying vnlesse you eate c. I aunswear to the next that it is true that Christs fleash in the Sacrament was not only giuen on the Crosse as being also giuen to be eaten in the Sacrament The conclusion is contayned in the premisses and so denyed or affirmed as the premisses All the residue is ether specified and reuersed in the 40. or 43. numbres or els being voyd speeches at randome need noe further resolution Behould beloued reader Ioan. 6. v. 51.53.55 to these woords of Christ this bread which I will giue is my flesh for the life of the worlde no woord of worthe or witt is replied but time Ioan. 14.6 cap. 7.17 and wynde wasted in most idle diuagations Is Christ the trueth are his woords as the Euangelist affirmeth the veritie why then the bread he gaue was his fleash not his figure then his fleash was not only crucified but also eaten then his fleash is meat truely and not figuratiuely To aunsweare therfor to these pregnant and infallible woords of Christ him selfe only that we mistake not shewing how the Fathers denye when and what they affirme apparently that Christs woords are spiritual and therfor not litteral and for other aunswer to digresse into reproaches to multiply woords to beat the wynde not shewing any defense or warrant of Scripture or Father for your figure only without veritie appellation only without substance representation only without commoditie such aunswearing I say is breefly Psal 4. v. 3. Diligere vanitatem querere mendacium to loue vanitie and to seeke lyes The third proofe of the Catholique Priests out of the sixth of Iohn to prooue Christs carnall presence in the Sacrament Catholicque Priests Vers 55. My flesh is meate truelie and my bloud is drinke trulie Rider 45. YF you should aske your boy in his Grammer rules a question if he aunswered not in the same case or by the same tense of a verbe that theâ— question is asked by you will count him a silie Grammatist But if you aske your Sophister a question in quid and hee aunswere in quale you will taâ—â— him for an improper and impertinent aunswere But most of all if a great Diuine be asked a question to prooue the manner of a thing and he neglecting or omitting that as too hard or impossible for him prooues the matter that was neuer demaunded or doubted of what will the Reader thinke of this matter this man and this proofe Surelie he must say either he vnderstandeth not the state of the question or else he is not able to prooue the question and so vseth this shameful shift iâ— steed of a sufficient proofe All the Catholiques in this kingdome expected to be satisfied by your aunswer touching the manner of Christs presence in the Sacrament whether it be carnal or spirituall and whether he must be eaten by faith spirituallie or the teeth carnally And your aunswere is as improper and impertinent as either Grammatist or Sophister for you leaue the maner of Christs presence which you should prooue and bring the matter of his presence which was neuer in question saying My flesh is meat truly c. How this your aunswere doeth relish of learning let the learned iudge When aâ— the Catholiques in the kingdome hang their soules on your saying Are these you contentments you giue them If they aske you how they must eate Christs fleâ— drinke Christs bloud then you tell them my flesh is meate in deed and my bloud 〈◊〉 drinke in deed Doe you aunswere their question or satisfie their conscience or resolue their doubts alasse no. Thus you haue dealt dallied and deceiued a long time Christs people with these your improper impertineÌ„t vnprofitable nay vntrue aunsweres and yet you will be called Fathers Doctours and what not But I pray you tell me why you added not the next words of Christ you thought they were against you But if you had dealt as men hauing Gods feaâ— before your eies you would not haue staied there for the next verse plainely discouers your bad dealing with the simple people for that aunswereth their question and that would satisfie all good Catholiques in this point For if you aske there the holy Ghost this question how must Gods children eate Christes flesh and drinke Christs bloud he will aunswere you that whosoeuer dwels in Christ and Christ in him eates Christs flesh and drinkes Christs bloude but the faithfull onely dwell in Christ and Christ in them therefore the faithfull onely eate Christs flesh and drinke Christs bloud whether it be in hearing the word in baptisme or in the Lords Supper as you haue heard before If you had added this verse it hâ—â— ouerthrown your carnall presence in the Sacrament and your orall eating of Chrisâ— with your mouth teeth c. But as you wrong the Catholiques with an impertitiâ—â— answere and as you abuse them by keeping backe the next words of Christ which expounds his owne meaning So heere you abuse your holie Father the Pope and your deare mother the Church of Rome in expounding this text contrarie to the Romane sence The second parte of the Catholicks first proofe by Scriptures 45. HEere in the woords of Christ is assured Fitzimon for the matter that it is fleashe and consequently not his appellation only for the manner that it is truely and consequently not figuratiuely only yet doth this proctor of the protestant profession only to cauill tell that the mater was
Christ wil be also in the same maner profitable Wherof see afterwards in treating of the Masse As also it is palpably demonstrated that the sacred body of Christ supplying the place of bread by his saying that bread was his bodie the substance of bread was no lōger extāt for being bread it could not be his body personaly vnited to his deitie vnles he had bene impanated as he was incarnated Rider 51 And heere I am sorie I must tell you so plainelie that you wrong greatly and grieuously Gods truth and the Queenes subiects in thus misalleadging this text 1 First by Addition of a word 2 Secondly by misunderstanding and misapplication of another word 3 Thirdly by omission nay plaine subtraction of a whole verse Addition For the first which is Addition you adde this particle it which is neither in the Greeke nor in your Romane Lattine Bible no nor in your Rhemish Testament nor euer seen in anie Doctor of antiquitie and this fillable altereth the sence and peruerteth Christs meaning and is added by you to maintaine that which the Text otherwise could not haue anie shew to beare Fitzimon 51. This sorrow of yours is as true as the rest For your toyle-some wreasting your brayns to aggrauat euery least shaddow of a fault and to runne after your simple imagination as a catt ronneth after hir owne tayle as if you had espyed a fault dothe shew you would be inwardly gladd to obserue any true fault But from my wil I assure you right and synceritie shall only proceed I trust also my skill in this mater will not be behynde Concerning the addition of it that it should alter the sence and peruert Christs meaning it maketh vp apparently the 23. vntrueth The 23. vntruth For what Christ tooke it he did blesse it he did breake it he did giue No more nor no lesse is signified with it then without it And for my part that it be omitted so it be conceaued I leaue to your choyse That it should be conceaued appeareth to all capacities Nether in so small a slipp will I want the defense and example of M. Rider him selfe in his actiue and passiue discourse following vpon the woord fregit which he construeth he brake it wheras but for the sense it should be said only he brake yf you may add it for better vnderstanding lawfully why would you reprehend me and that so heynously to haue inserted it 52. Secondlie you misunderstand and misapplie this word Blesse Rider Misapplication Rhe. Test. 1. Cor. 11. Sect. 9. for we say it signifieth to giue thanks with the mouth and you say to make crosses with the fingers wee say it was spoken by Christ to his Father you say it was spoken to ouer or vpon the bread and challice and that hee vsed power and actiue words vpon them we contrarie will shew out of the word it selfe that it hath no such signification VVhen M. Rider citeth or omitteth our Authors 52. YOu in your Dedicatory epistle Fitzimon and els where did vaunt that you would confound vs by our owne Fathers quoting our owne books our owne print c. This indeed is performed only when what is affirmed being truely vnderstood maketh nothing for you or against vs. But we complayne on you to your selfe that in true accusations which would make heynously against vs you cite no authour no bookes no points but as I sayd befor vpon your owne bare woord hauing misinformed you pursue your owne relation therby as it was behoofull for your cause eschueing your controuersie For examples sake who of vs tould you that Christs fleash giuen for the lyfe of the world is Christs only body seperated as you affirme from his soule Which of our books record that Christ with all his merits is receaued by infidels dogs catts and other beasts as you informe in the 43. numbre When did any of vs teache a carnal real presence of Christ in the sacrament before consecration as you affirme in the 47. numbre And when or were did any of vs certifie you as you here and a litle after reporte that to blesse is not to giue thanks or to pray but only as we vaynly and foolishly teache say you to Crosse with two fingers and a thumbe with mumbling woords and charming Crosses wherby we forgiue synns past and preserue that day from future dangers Why in these and the lyke are not our authours books pages and prints alleaged The true aunswear is qui enim mal◠agit odit lucem Ioan. 3. n. 19. for he that doth wickedly hateth light that his woorks may not be reprehended But good Lord yf you had intended as you lately pretended that you would proue your opinion true that Christ is not properly and litteraly but only sacramentaly improperly figuratiuely and misticaly in the sacrament why would you seeke digressios and by-maters of blessings charmings and mumblings and gallopp after them in so long discourse But since we must haue patience perforce without reason or remedie let vs wayte vpon our wandring knight who may aboue all writers of him selfe affirme out of Ouid Ouid. Nunc huc nunc illuc vtròque sine ordine curro Now here now there and both vnorderly I runne Rider 53. One part of the originall woord in Greeke signifieth in English Speech vttered with the mouth not a magicall crossing of or with fingers And the other Greeke word which must be iudge betwixt vs doth signifie to laude to praise and to blesse and blessing praising and thanksgiuing are all one as anone you shall heare Christ himselfe so to expound it and all the Euangelists and Paul agree in one congruence touching this matter against you How blesse blessing are vsed in Scriptures But first I will shew the simple how diuersly this word Blesse is vsed in the Scriptures To blesse God is to praise him and giue him thankes for all his mercies as you haue in Luke Luke 24.53 and the disciples continued in the Temple lauding and blessing God I hope you will not say they crost God with their fingers or consecrated him to make him more holie but praised him with their mouths For if you take blessing of God in that fingered sence then see the absurdities you fall into Ioh. 1.18 Ioh 4.24 Anthropomorphitae First against Scriptures you must hold that God the Father it not a Spirit but hath a bodielie shape that may bee touched and crost with our corporall fingers if this you hold ioyne with those auncient Heretickes of Egypt who held that God had a bodie and members as man had What it is for one mā to blesse another Gen. 27. Gen 48 Nū 6.23 Let your High priests of Rome and you low Priestes of Ireland learne of Aaron Gods High Priest how to blesse Gods people so cease to deceiue them anie more And the second absurditie nay blasphemie is this that you should make GOD who is
And Origin saith Not the matter of bread but the words recited ouer it doth profit the worthy receiuer this I speake saith he of the typicall and figuratiue bodie which is in deede the Sacramentall bread Vpon the 15. of Mathew Augustine confuting Adimantus the Hereticke that held that the bloud in man was the onely soule of man aunswered it was so figuratiuely not otherwise and to prooue it he vseth this proposition of Christ Hoc est corpus meum this is my bodie saying Possum etiam interpretari illud praeceptum in signo positum esse non enim dubitauit Dominus dicere hoc est corpus meum cùm signum daret corporis sui I maye saith Augustine expound the precept of Christ figuratiuelie for the Lord doubted not to say this is my bodie when he gaue the figure of his bodie Augustine saith Hoc est corpus meum is a phrase figuratiue you say no but it is litterall Now let the Catholicks take this Friendlie Caueat to heart for they haue no reason to follow you that forsake the Fathers and heere may you see that our exposition is auncient Catholicke and Apostolicall yours new priuate and hereticall Tertullian an ancient Father saith Acceptum panem distributum discipulis Tertull. lib. 4. contra Marcion pag. 133. line 26. c. The bread which was taken and giuen to his disciples Christ made his bodie by saying this is my bodie that is the figure of my bodie what could be more spoken of them for vs against you Hierome super 26. Math. Ambrose in 1. Cor. 11. And Hierome calls it a representation of the truth of Christs bodie and bloud and not the body and bloud And Ambrose seconds his former sayings in these words In edendo c. In eating and drinking the bread and wine we doe signifie the flesh and bloud which was offered for vs so that they doe but signifie the flesh and bloud they are not the flesh and bloud And Chrisostome saith Chris in hom 17 in Hebr. super 1. Cor. 11. Offerimus quidem sed ad recordationem and afterward Hoc autem sacrificium exemplar est illius c. We offer indeed but in rememberance of his death this sacrifice is a token or figure of that sacrifice the thing that we do is done in remēberance of the thing that was done by Christ before c. Here is a manifest place against you Chrisost in hom 11. Math. which you shall neuer aunswere And elsewhere he saith in the same sanctified vessels there is not the bodie of Christ indeed but a misterie of the bodie is contained Clemens Alex. in padago lib. 1. cap. 6. pag. 18. line vlt. pag. 19. line 1. And Clemens Alexandrinus who liued 1300. yeares agoe saith Comedite carnes meas bibite sanguinem meum c. Eate yee my flesh and drincke my bloud meaning heereby vnder an allegorie or figure the meat drincke that is of faith of promise And the same reuerend Father in his second booke and second chapter of his Padagogi and 5. pag. and line 21 22 23. hath these words Ipse quoque vino vsus est nam ipse quoque homo vinum benedixit cùm dixit accipite bibite hoc est sanguis meus sanguis vitis c. For our Lord Christ vsed wine and blessed wine when he said take drincke this my bloud the bloud of the vine the word which is shed for manie for the remissiō of sinnes doth signifie allegorically the holy riuer of gladnesse Out of which I note First it is sanguis vitis the bloud of the grape properlie and that is wine It is called Christs bloud Sacramentallie and by way of signification Secōdlie it appeares to be figuratiue in this word shed for the bloud of the grape which is wine was not shed for manie but the bloud of Christ But you wil saye it is true before consecration but after consecration it is Christs verie naturall bloud No saith Clement immediatlie following Quod autem vinum esset quod benedictum est c. And that it was wine which was blessed hee sheweth againe when he saith to his disciples I will not drincke of the fruit of the vine c. Out of which premisses I note three things Read Clement follow Clem. First that that which you call cōsecration this learned Father calls it benediction Secondlie that after consecration the nature of wine remaineth still and it is not changed as you imagine Thirdly that the phrase is figuratiue and not proper Beda in Luc. 22. page 476. And venerable Beda our countrieman tells you that in England in his time the text was taken figuratiuely The solemnities of the old Passouer saith he being ended Christ commeth to the newe which the Church is desirous to continue in remembrance of her redemption that in stead of the flesh and bloud of a LAMBE hee substituting the Sacrament of his flesh and bloud in the figure of bread and wine might shew himselfe to be the same to whom the Lord sware and will not repent c. Beda called it not the naturall bodie of Christ that worketh out redemption but a remembrance of our redemption and a figure of it Thus the indifferent Reader may see that Augustine Ambrose Origin Tertullian Hierome Clemens Alexandrinus Beda and manie others which I omit for breuities sake all of them being auncient approoued writers and all of them of your owne Prints doe hold with vs against you that your propositions be not proper but Sacramentall improper significatiue representatiue allegoricall figuratiue which greatlie wounds the bodie of your cause and will weaken your credits with the Catholickes How the Fathers graunting a figure yet deny à figure as it is taken by protestants 56. I Graunt with S. Augustin the B. Sacrament to be a figure of Christ but requyre that you shew him to approue it Fitzimon a figure only I graunt with Origen it is Christs typical body grant you the rest of his opiniō in his owne woords deliuered The law of God sayth he now not in figurs or images as befor but in the very forme of trueth is acknowledged Origen hom 7. in lib. Num. And what befor were in an obscuritie shaddowed are now acclomplished in their forme and trueth It followeth Befor was baptisme in a figure in the clowd and in the sea but now regeneration is in forme in water and the holy Ghost Then was Manna in a figure meat now in forme is the fleash of the woord of God true meat according as he sayd my fleash is meat truely and my blood is drinke truely I craue no more then Tertullian affoordeth Tertull. l. 4. con Marcion as appeareth in the numbers cited in the 54. That Christ made the bread which was giuen to his disciples his body by saying this is my body that is the figure of his body in owtward apparence as in the forsayd numbers is
bread and wyne which in Cambridge by the Bishop D. Ridley was denyed So that M. Rider hath giuen doctor Ridley a knock for denial of a change I thinke you would now know how this change is wrought Attend the means and maner VVe looke saith he vpon the dredfull and reuerend mysteries of Christ crucified not as vpon bare naked elements but as sanctifyed foode I aske you first 1. Pet. 3. in confidence that you are readie alwayes to satisfie euery one that asketh you a reason of that hope that is in you according as S. Peter aduiseth since when these mysteries in your religion haue bene allowed to be called dreadfull and reuerend In the forsayd 39. number the meanest sermon of a Puritan minister is made more auaylable then they They are then declared superfluous but among forgetfull persons no better then bare beggerlie ordonances no more to be regarded then any other common bread c. Yet here they are made very terrible and venerable as in the last woords is contayned I can not among other obseruations conceal that by imputing lesse to the sacraments then to a Puritan sermon you preferre Puritan sermons befor any euer made by Christ or his Apostles How soe For they preached oft yet made not all hearers to ether receaue our Saluiour into hart or harborow no not in Bethsaida or Corozain wher he him self preached most vsualy nor much lesse at his preaching did make them to be true beleeuers Yf therfor none can receaue the sacraments but by faith as you say and yet that by a Puritan sermon ther is more good and proffit attayned then by the sacraments to my slender capacitie Puritan sermons are implyed to make all hearers faithfull considering that sacraments of lesse worth by your surmises then such sermons make all receauers to be faithfull as being receaued by no others Yet that the sermons of S. Paul were not comparable in operation to our sacrament in controuersie S. Aug. l. 3. de Trin. c. 4. is sayd by S. Augustin Nether the tong of Paul nor his paper nor inke nor woords nor wrytings de we esteeme as the bodie or blood of Christ so farr was he from thinking that any Puritan sermon was so effectual as this sacrament Secondly I craue how your supper is sanctified For the Crosse or blessing you will not allow and of prayer and the woord of true Scripture in this discourse you make no mention and other sanctification you can not iustifie Thirdly how by only looking you make the foode to be sanctified Haue you any Gorgonical vertue in your looking that all that you looke on is sanctified as all that looked on Gorgons head were sayd trāsformed Fowerthly how for all this dreadfull and reuerend change ther is any alteration from a bare figure considering that the Iewes ceremonies were as much sanctified and looked at as your supper and also by all protestāts of your sorte equaled therto Fiftly how hath your looking changed the vse of bread which is only to nourish you confessing the vse therof in the sacrament to be no other then to represent Christs feeding and conforting our soules as bread doth feed and confort our bodies The vse therfor therof seemeth to me not to be changed Because I know these demāds insoluble by your whole professiō and that I see your extremitie and perplexitie by your figures and darke woords neuer at an ende or staye but that by means of your figures and signes you can not tell whether to vse great or smal tearmes or deuotion toward them nor do not constantly determine what conceils may be had or held of them but some tyme kneeling therto is requisit and some tyme sitting therat will suffice and some tyme as Barlow in the summe of the conference befor the K. Maiestie pag. 98. saith it must be receaued in ambling therto wherof the indecencie is ther sayd to haue bene very offensiue I will conclude in the woords of S. Epiphanius S. Epiphan l. 2. c. 12 cont Cerdon Vide num 36. Veritati non credentes in mendacio autem volutantes perdiderunt panem verae vitae in profundum vmbrae iacentes similes Aesopi cani qui panem reliquit in vmbram autem eius impetum fecit perdidit escam Not beleeuing trueth and wallowing in falshood they haue lost the bread of true lyfe tumbling in the bottom of a shaddow lyke Esops dogg who left the bread and snatching the shaddow lost his bayt Then which sentence neuer was ther any more pertinent against our figurists For their glosing the sacrament with dreadfull and reuerend woords hauing euacuated the fruict therof and making it but a shaddow when shaddowes are changed into substance and trueth how could any thing more aptly be applyed vnto them then by saying they had left the bread snatched the shaddow and lost the bayte 64. But first I must tell you the word is new Rider neither vsed by Christ or his Apostles in the institution of the sacrament nor heard of in any ancient Father for manie hundred yeares after Christ Again neuer read in anie author sacred or prophane that consecration should signifie to change one substance into another for the nature of the word wil not beare it Now seeing by Christ or his Apostle Paul it was not vsed nor ancient Father euer tooke it in this sence Again the nature of the word hath no such signification I see not but you deserue much blame in binding the Catholickes consciences to beleeue that which is against diuinitie antiquitie and comon sence Now Gentlemen pardon me to demand of you but this question what words be they that consecrat that is which turn the substances of bread and wine into the naturall and substantial bodie and bloud of Christ Me thinkes I heare you Iesuits and Priests calling me a foole for demaunding such a question Such fathers as liued next to Christs time shold know best the practise of the primitiue church these fathers you refuse and chose others a thousād years yonger therefore they be of lesse credit considering as yee pretend that the Church of Rome and ther learned men haue euer from Christs time held with one consent one manner of consecration with a certaine set number of words without addition or alteration and therefore my question is friuolous and needlesse and no doubt you make your Catholickes beleeue so but alasse you deceiue them it is not so for I will shew you manie seueral opinions amongst your learned men yea Popes themselues one contrarie to another I praye you let me and the Catholickes of this kingdome therefore be certified and satisfied by Gods word and the practise of the Primitiue Church for the first six hundred years which be the words of consecration that worketh this miraculous alteration of substances which if you cannot prooue as I am sure you cannot then the Catholickes haue good cause to looke to their consciences and to
A veritate verbo Dei aberrant tanquam alieni à vera Dei Ecclesia iustissimè condemnantur vitantur velut Lupi a Christi ouilibus arcentur Do stray from trueth and the woord of God and as seperated from the Church of God are most iustly condemned eschued and as wolues from Christs sheepsowlds repulsed Behould I say how miserably it hath bene lyke a cock of hey in summer tyme tossed toyled and tormented changed fashioned reformed and deformed as yf it contended with courtiars of late tymes to be in as many new fashions as they I wil not vnfould any thing of the English communion books diuersitie A suruey of the pretended holy discipl LoÌ„d per IoaÌ„ woolfe Anno 1593. pag. 3. 13. 77. because puritans shall not be offended with me for intermedling in their charge Their milenarie suffrages against it their exceptions against 150. articles therof their saying that the gouernment of the Churche of England is Antichristian and Diabolical and that none but betrayers of God doe defended it is more then sufficient to be sayd to my purpose 2. Where as ther are three formes of Creed one from the tyme of the Apostles Another of the first general Concil of Nice which after for further explication added in the Concil of Constantinople beareth commonly the name of the Constantinopolitan Crede wherof godw lling I will treate in the explication of the Masse The third of S. Athanasius which to this day is readd in the Sonday office euâ—n among protestants although these three according to their ordre more or lesse haue bene in all ChristeÌ„dome hitherto irrefragable yet now the second displeaseth for the woord (a) Luther con Iac. Latom. homoousion and all founders therof are tearmed but a congregations of (b) Beza in epist theol 81. Sophisters Also the third for standing to much vpon and for the blessed Trinitie is mis-named for the creed of S. Athanasius the creed of (c) Georgio Nigro Stanislao Sarnicio Blandrata LismaÌ„niâ— c. apud Stanchar l 6. 7. in pref de mediatore Sathanasius Against the first of the Apostles diuers exceptions are made First by Caluin (d) Calu. apud Lindan pa op pag. 112. that he doubteth whether it should be of authoritie not being contayned in scripture Secondly by Brentius (e) BreÌ„t in sua catechesi inclining not so much to doubt therof as to be assured it should be distrusted Thirdly by Anabaptists denying it in general and particular To these may be reduced profane and impiouse Erasmus or rather all they to him affirming praef paraphrasis suae in Matth. Nescire se num symbolum illud ab Apostolis manauerit whether this forme of beleefe euer came from the Apostles O vnworthie and vnchristian distrust Worthely is it sayd vulgarly Erasmus innuit Luthers irruit Erasmus parit oua Lutherus excludit pullos Erasmus dubitat Lutherus abnegat But by that which followeth may best appeare that protestants are in great dislike toward it Lauath in hist sacramentali Amisfort in pura doctr euang Gallus in Thesib Sur. ad an 1557. Lauatherus a Zuinglian Amissortius and Gallus Lutherans and Surius a Catholick doe conformably recount how the Dieta of Ratisbon anno 1557. Septemb. 4. inioyned 12. choise protestants to establish a forme of beleefe not after at any tyme by any to be contradicted They mett and eftsoons deliberated without any conclusion Then three dayes farther consultation for better aduise were had and those also being expired seuen other dayes requested and graunted yet nothing was determined They were so farr from consenting to ether the Apostles beleefe or any other that seuen of them excommunicated the other fiue as being the only impediment of agreement yet nether could these seuen ether then or euer since deliuer any forme of beleefe to which they or others would stande or abide irreuocably 3. As S. Augustin sayth they that beleeue of scripture what they list S. August con Faust. l. 16. c. 3. and what they list not do not beleeue they beleeue not the scripturs but them selues So is it in the beleeuers of the creed Therfor he that offendeth in one is made guiltie of all Or as S. Chrysostom sayth S. Chrysost in epistolaÌ„ ad Galat. S. Ambros. ad Demetriadem virginem Symbol S. Athanaesij vers quam nisi quisque integrè c. Ephes. 4.5 Hebr. 11.6 he corrupteth the whole doctrin who ouerthroweth the least particle therof Or as S. Ambrose sayth He is reiected from the numbre of the faythfull and lott of the holy which in any one point dissenteth from the Catholick veritie So that yf protestantcy be found opposit to any one article although it professe the residue yet may it not be sayd auaylable or a true beleefe Nether can ther be other then one faythe as ther can be but one only God And without this true and only faythe it is impossible to please God how honestly soeuer misbeleeuers liue in the world Wherfor all sectaries must be repugnant to this true and only faythe and farr from saluation who haue no other euidence of their faythe th' one aboue th' other but bare challenges of scripture common to all late and ancient hereticks In particular let them assure them selues that the true faythe hathe publickly preuayled bothe for continuance and puritie against the gates of hell Math. 16.18 to witt against the power of Pagans and malice of hereticks such being Christs infallible assurance to the only fayth of his Church Next let them as carefully prouide that the fayth by them esteemed true be not lately reuealed for therby both is it knowen to haue bene preuayled against yf it were at any tyme extinguished and also we are admonished by Gods woord 1. Ioan. 2. Rom. 16. Galat. 1. that it remayne in vs and we in it which we had heard from the begynning and yf any preache otherwyse then we had alredy receaued to hould him accursed Wherof some what is disputed befor Thirdly let them noe lesse eschue Hebr. 13. that it be not mutable as being forwarned by S. Paul not to be misledd by variable and strange doctrins So that yf these obseruations tendred by the holy Ghost in sacred Scripture be opposit to their beliefe it is a manifest demonstration they should suspect and reiect it Rom. 10.17 2. Cor. 11.14 4. True faythe is by hearing the woord of God reuealed to vs by his holy Spirit whether in wryting or by tradition Wheras thetfor Sathan may transforme him selfe into an angel of light we are forwarned not to beleeue euery spirit but to depend vpon the faythe of Gods Church the piller of trueth 1. Ioâ— 4. 1. Tim. 3. gouerned by the holy Ghost which yf we do not obserue 14. Ioan. Mat. 18. Ex ipso Galu l. 4. Instit c. 1. n. 17. 22 4. we are no neerer saluation then Ethnicks and Publicans This is the faithe contained in the creed
in all late bibles as Carlile him selfe confesseth Carlile in his booke against Christ discension fol. 144. 116. Humfrye l. 2. de rat interpret pag. 219. 220 they haue corrupted and depraued the sense obscured the trueth deceaued the ignorant and supplanted the simple following darknes more then light and falshod more then trueth To which accordeth D. Humfrey of Oxford behould the verdict of bothe your vniuersities saying the forsayd hebrue woord should not be translated graue but hell yf the authoritie of the holy ghost be obserued and consequently late Englishe translations in this point fall and fayle from the holy ghost by doing the contrary But most ernestly I craue the curteouse reader Beza in Act. c. 10.46 edit an 1556. Iuuenal satyra 2. to peruse what Beza him selfe wryteth against such late translators as follow new fangled and doubtfull interpretations in Scripturs refusing familiar and accustomed woords yf he will obserue a Verres condemning others of theft a Clodius dispraysing others for leacherie a Catelin disprouing others for prodigalitie a Gracchus reprehending others for sedition Fowerthly this article is impugned by Bullinger saying Bullinger in 1. Pet. c. 4. that Christ discended noe otherwyse to hell then as he dayly discended to vs Spiritu virtute only by spirit and vertu interim vt nemo putet corpus vel animam eius discendisse in suche sorte as none surmise his body or soule to haue discended To whiche anneareth Brentius Beza ad alteram partem libri Brientij Aug. lib. 3. de Doctr. c. 10. affirming ther is no other but a figuratiue imaginatiue and spirituall hell without other torments then metaphorical How deseruedly did S. Augustin fortell when the mynds of any are preoccupated by erroure all that scripture hathe to the contrary they affirme to be but figuratiue Iosias Simlerus in vita Bullingeri fol. 35. Vide Alan Cop. dial 5. c. 18. They began first to make sacraments but figurs they followed next to affirme all promises by Christ made for good woorks to be but hyperbolical diuers mysteryes of his lyfe to be ineffectual all in his passion fullfilled to be but figuratiue and histrionical and lastly heauen and hell to be only tropical or fantastical Pause Christian considerations at this yf patience will permitt Fiftly this article is impugned for th' other parte of Christs resurrection Calu. in sua harm in c. 24. Luca v. 38. Beza in 1. Cor. c. 15.23 Hollinshead an 1579. pag. 1195. by Caluin saying that Christ wanted some perfection of a glorious resurrection and by diuers reformers affirming as Beza confesseth Christum nunquam resurrexisse sed adhuc iacere mortuum Christ neuer to haue risen but yet to remayne dead By others also yf laufull inferences be admitted who affirmed befor besyd his bodily death a death of his soule and diuinitie By others who ernestly except against the feast of easter in remembrance of such resurrection especialy as it is a Christian solemnitie desyring it be abolished or restored according to the Iewes ceremonies Luth. l. de concilijs Bale l. 3. c. 25. de Scrip. Zuingl to 2. respon ad Lutheri librum de sacram fol. 465. Such are Luther Bale the Puritans as appeareth in D. VVhitgift Sixtly this article is impugned by Zuinglius saying Crassus Lutheri Praetor rubris indutus caligis eo modo quo Christus monumento exiuit egredi potuerit the gross Pretor of Luther appareiled in his read hose in lyke maner as Christ went owt of his sepulchre might also haue issued Which is most impiously blaphemed wheras Christ after his death issued by his owne force as all Doctors and Fathers affirme without remouing the stone placed vpon the monument To which accordeth against the forsayd blasphemie the late Protestant conference at Malbrun alleaging many scripturs and Fathers in approbation of such miraculous resurrection The same is also fulfilled by Marlorat Thalman and at lengthe vpon better aduise by Caluin and Beza The seuenth Article of S. Bartholome He ascended into heauen sitteth at the right hand of God the Father almightie 16. This article is first contradicted by Lutherans affirming Vide admonitionem Caluinist ad librum CoÌ„cordiae Daneum con Osiandrum Calu. l. 2. Instit. c. 14. n. 8. Beza in cap. 3. Act. v. 21. Cal. Instit. l. 2. c. 14. n. 3. Vide Intermangerie pag. 157. Vide Neuerium in bello 5. euang pag. 72. Apud Iosiam SymleruÌ„ in vita Bullingeri fol. 35. 55. Apudque Luther to 7. Witteb fol. 408. 409. heauen to be below in the bowels of the earthe and hell in the highest parts of the world Next by Caluin saying that Christs sitting at the right hand of God will continue no longer then till the day of iudgement Thirdly by those who affirme his being at the right hand of his Father to hinder his true being in the Sacrament as is befor declared number 68. Fowerthly by them who deny that by his power he could surpass the qualities of a natural body and consequently not ascend as also is ther manifested Fiftly by those who affirme his being at the the right hand to argue an inferioritie or inequalitie with God the Father or that God the Father had a spiritual kinde of bodye haueing hands c. Sixtly by Caluin saying that it is not to be imagined ther is any place in heauen whervnto is ascended or accepted the humanitie of Christ. Seuenthly by many principal protestaÌ„ts as Brentius Illyricus Musculus c. Christs ascension is made nothing but a disapeering without any motion vpward wher he was before The eight article of S. Mathew From thence shall he come to iudge the quick and the dead 17. This article is impugned Generaly all protestants first by suche as by graunting one iudgement in general at the daye of dome affirme Christ neuer iudgeth euery one in particular Luther vt suprá Secondly by them who affirme only infidelitie to be subiect to iudgement wheras Christ doth promise to call into accompt euery idle woord and omission of charitie Thirdly by such as say God will iudge vniustly as Luther saying that as illic gratiam misericordiam spargit in indignos Luther to 2. fol. 461. de serue arbitrio hic iram seuetitatem spargit in immeritos ther in this lyffe he pouâ—red grace and mercie vpon the vnwoorthy so here in iudgement he powreth angre and seueritie vpon the vndeserued Whiche Gods iniustice in iudgement and condemnation of the wicked is implyed by the common doctrin that God is the authour of euil not only by prouocation but by impulsion and inforcement For being sayd to be the inforcer to euil how can he punish iustly them that obey him And such doctrin is vniuersal as is demoÌ„strated among the greatest protestants Luther Caluin Zuinglius and Beza as appeareth in the first article Lastly they misbeleeue this Article who affirme that Christ who should come to iudge is dead according
Luther the ancient testameÌ„t as resolutly excluded all together as was the neweby Ochinus Ne ingeratur nobis Moises nos in nouo testamento Moisem nec videre nec audire volumus let not Moises be thrust vpon vs we in the new testament will not ether regard or hear him tom 3. Ienen in 1. parte The same was done be others against Moises as testifyeth Iac. Curio loc cit That he had rather neuer preache then propound any thing out of Moises That he that dothe alleage any thing of his doth depriue Christ of the harts of men That Moises belongeth nothing to vs. That he receaueth him not for otherwyse he should also receaue all Iewish ceremonies That his gouernement is fayled and him selfe dead That Moises belongeth only to Iewes and not to Christians Sander de Schism Anglic. lib. 2. pag. 272. Persons exameÌ„ parâ— 3. pag. 332. To the same concerning the new testament Bucer yf all be true whiche the euangelists do sett downe Christ must be truly realy in the Sacrament But whether we be bound to beleeue absolutly euery thing sett downe by them to be true or noe he would not be iudge By which appeareth that what thes men list to beleeue being but of their owne imaginations they make it to be inspired by the holy ghost to be the most sacred scripture them selues to be euangelists their testimonyes to be bastant to iudge angels and men what also displeaseth their stomacks be it in new or ould testament they raze cancel reiect and abiure it as apochriphal not haueing any more reason or authoritie for any parcels exclusion or condemnation then ther fellowes for many whole volums and both ould and new testament together Neither in this are they yet satisfyed but certifie that the holy ghost him selfe suggereret tantum quaecunque Christus ante ore docuerat hanc restrictionem attente esse notandam could suggest or teache nothing but what Christ befor deliuered by mouthe and suche restraint and limitation to be sayth Calu. l. 4. Instit. c. 8. n. 8. Caluin heedfully noted Yet Christ him selfe telling in his gospell that he had many things wherof as then they were not capable which the holy ghost should in tyme reueale as also teache them all trueth neuer the less they would not hold or stopp in suche their so desperat abhominations How Contrary to them is S. Chrysostom saying ideo spiritui seruata est maior doctrinae portio ne putarent illum minorem Hom. 1. in Acta Therfor c. Ioan. 16.13 What is sayd of impugning the holy Ghost for scriptures belongeth also to traditions such as few of them but consent to parte of them although they be not extant in Scripture as to the blessed Trinitie and consubstantialitie of persons the perpetual virginitie of our Ladie the obseruation of Sonday not of the Sabbaoth the baptising of infants the communion receauing fasting the feasts of easter c. which traditions as all other acknowledged by the Churche Ioan. 16.13 haue issued from the holy Ghost according Christs promise that he should not only teache vz by word but also suggest by inspiration all trueth Yf I affected not breuitie what Fathers monuments for traditions what fowle dealing of Sectarists against them mentioned in Martins discouerie cap. 2. could I alleage Fowerthly S. August in quaest ex vtroque test q. 102. according to S. Augustin they impugne the holy Ghost who impute euident miracles frequent in Gods Churche gouerned by the holy Ghost to the deuil VpoÌ„ which occasioÌ„ of the Pharisees saying that in Beelzebub Christ cast out deuils Christ our Saluiour entred to discourse of the synn against the holy Ghost shewing therby to pertayne to the holy Ghost all miraculouse operations But of miracles which are lawfull and how to be knowen we are after to dispute For to conclude what ther beleefe is against the holy Ghost is testified when the first reforming Apostle of Morauia Irrisit Spiritum sanctum seque diceret volle potius redire in coenobium quà m credere in Spiritum sanctum Did flowt at the holy Ghost saying he would returne sooner to the cloistre then beleeue in him Prateolus l. 10. c. 10. Fiftly they impugne the other parte of the Catholick Churche which in deede should be a distinct article who can not abyde the name of Catholick as appeareth before nor the name of Churche in their principal Bible of the yeare 1562. but excluded it wholy without redemption placing for the name Churche the name of congregation And wheras they weare confounded at such profane odious interpretation considering it shewed a hatred against the chaste spouse of Christ a distrust to be tryed by the churche whom who heareth not is as far from saluation as any publican or Ethnick and argued a publick reuolt or rebellion from Christ him selfe head of the Churche they amended it in their later translations Math 16.18 with worlds shame yet so nicely as in one cheef place of Scripture wher Christ sayd to S. Peter vpon this rock I will build my Churche the bible of the yeare 1577. retayned still in liew of Church the name of congregation which properly belongeth only to beasts and by application is transferred to men Sixtly they impugne this second parte who affirme the Mother Churche may err in any point of beleefe considering Christs promises Math. 16. Luc. 22. Ioan. 14. Act. 2. Luc. 22. that the gates of hell nether by errour nor by violence should neuer preuayle against it the faythe therof should neuer fayle the holy Ghost teacher of all trueth should perpetually remayne with it that it is a spotles spouse without all wrinckle that it being conuerted should confirme all others c. Fox Acts. pag. 1359. Iewel repl con Hard. art 4. diu 14. 21. pag. 249. 268. Calu. l. 4. Instit. c. 2. n. 2. 3. c. Vide Campâ—ani rationâ—m vlt. De Luther Vide num 17. Calu. Instruc con Libertin c. 13. Such mother Church to be it only of Rome all Fathers and most sectarists them selues profess Nether can it be denyed considering it only hathe vniuersalitie consent and antiquitie as appeareth n. 4. Considering also that no other peofession hath holynes in lyfe or doctrin which accompanie on another as the good and bad fruict the good and bad tree Witnes first for doctrin all hithertho in this examination alleadged and secondly Luther saying the commandements of God not to belong to Christians Witnes next Caluin saying in other mens name but in his owne doctrin Concupiuit quis vxorem proximi sui ea potiatur si potest certò enim scit se nihil alienum à voluntate Dei facere Audacter eripiat vel vi vel fraude fortunas proximorum nihil enim suscipiet nisi Deo volente vel probante hathe any coueted his neighbours wyfe let him inioye hir yf he can for he knoweth assuredly he doth nothing
materially without anie signification at all See now whither you are brought or rather whither haue you brought Gods people from trueth to false hood if hoc signifieth nothing where then is your transubstantiation For if in that word which should first worke in the change there bee no mention of bread how can that which is no way comprised in them be changed by them and so you speake against your selues Againe as you are rent in sundrie opinions touching hoc so also are you touching est for when you saw that est would not serue in his proper Euangelicall and Apostolicall signification then you gaue him a new exposition For Bonauenture seeing that est as Christ and Paul meant it would not fit their purpose VVhat est signifieth there is great variāce amōgst the Romish Prelats Est i. Fit Est est verbum anuntiatiuum non constitutium Est i. erit Iosephus Angles in loco praedicto pag. 115. then hee of purpose expounded it by Fit vt sit sensus panis fit corpus meum that it might be thus in sence The bread is made my bodie Yet Occham hee likes not Bonauentures Fit because hee thinkes it is too grosse and too false and therefore he will expound est by erit that it may carrie with it this sence this shall be my bodie but saith he it is a verie rash and brainsicke opinion and alleadgeth as brainsicke a reason as there you may see Yet Caietanus the Cardinall de Eucharistia cap. 7. pag. 104. col 2. C. D. denieth est to haue anie such signification vnlesse it be in metaphors and parables But least that I shuld be too offensiue vnto you I could deliuer so many seueral opinions of yours touching the praedicat corpus one saith it must bee meant of Christes bodie glorified no saith another that is false but it must be vnderstood of his bodie as it was before his passion And a third opinion obiects certaine doubts against both the former Magister Sententiarum lib. 4. dinstinct 12. page 60. deliuers foure seuerall opinions de fractione partibus Now Gentlemen I appeale to your consciences if they be not cauteriated whether you haue dealt well with the ignorant Catholickes of this land in perswading them that in all your doctrine there is consent without jarres antiquitie without innouation and vniuersalitie without limittation whereas there is nothing but jarres discords and dissentions in your consecration in your transubstantiation and in euery word almost nay perticle as hoc and est be so wrested by your construction that you haue brought both their proper significations to plaine destruction Is this exposition Catholicke what auncient father euer expounded it so let the Catholickes know or else they with vs will iudge neither you nor your doctrine Catholicke Will you follow a foolish Frier an ignorant Abbot a late vpstart Pope or Priest that writ and wrested within these foure hundred yeares and forsake Scriptures and the auncient Doctours of the Church Now let the indifferent minded Catholikes be iudges whether you or wee haue antiquitie consent and veritie on our sides And who differs from Scriptures and fathers from and amongst themselues not onelie in one point of religion but almost in euerie point particle of doctrine Thus much concerning your discords amongst your selues all against the auncien◠Apostolicall and Catholick truth 74. Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Fitzsimon being admitted to behowld this courser I would say discourser can yow good frends refrayne from smyling He telleth yow the third opinion is all one with the first and yet that it is the third and not all one but a seueral opinion This must needs make vp the 77. vntrueth The 77. vntruth Next that the fowerth fift and sixt opinions are all contrary to the former and yet that being different The 78. vntruth they are not different among thēselues but that they all agree This is the 78. Then he maketh a ragged argument yf nothing be conuerted by the first worde all our dealing is vndone Alas yf he would be capable he might thinke that this conuersion is done by Gods infinit vertue in an instant not by parts seueraly according to the woords Hoc est corpus meum as yf to euery woord a sondry part were correspondent but that to all the forme conioyntly all the conuersion is to be referred so that ther be conceaued a diuers substance present whiche was not befor not euery woord but the whole forme being pronownced Is not this a frantick kynde of cofuting to say only this is sayd I am suer it is false how absurd this is let young sophisters iudge I am suer they sound not of Diuinitie or learning is not this deepe diuinitie for a pope and no suche matter sayd but forged by him selfe his assurance childishe the absurditie only in his conceits the diuinitie and learning impugned so inexpugnable as nether in his brayne is ther any reason and by his mowth but Riderian blasts to contradict it Therfor to bring disputations of Doctors therby to testifie a disagreement betwixt them in their beleefe of the substance of transubstantiation they being only of the tyme therof is as wysely done especialy by one more frequent and seasoned with experience in law cowrts then learned colledges as yf he wowld assure that laweyers disagree in allowing the law because they plead seueraly for their Clyents of the construction or tyme of constitution or number of sillables of the law Or yf he wowld say that philosophers doubt whether ther be wynde rayne riuers because they diuersly imagin how when and whence they haue their original Remembre what was informed in the 65. numbre that it is impossible we can haue any dissentiōs among vs according to the saying of the Apostle Si quis autem videtur contentiosus esse 1. Cor. 11.16 nos talem consuetudinem non habemus neque Ecclesia Dei Yf any seeme contentiouse we haue noe suche custome nor the Churche of God Because a Christian wryter among vs must follow as Waldensis saythe Tho. Wald. l. 2. doctrinalis fidei cap. 21.23 the iudgement of the Churche vnder the payne of misbeleefe yf it be a point of faythe or vnder the payne of contumacie yf it be not And all Catholick students among vs doe read the disputations of Doctors vndecided by the Churche cum iudicandi libertate with libertie to censure according to S. Augustins woords S. Augustin cō Faustum lib. 11. c. 5. Et epist 48. ad Vincent and his instructiō toward himselfe and all others imbraceing whatsoeuer they fynde true and imputing it to the Catholick Churche and reiecting what they fynde false imputing it to deceaueable man This is a priuilege of Catholicks to be free from dissentions and neuer but to concurr in one Faythe Luther Zuinglius Cal. n. 19. examinis Not so the wicked not soe as appeareth in the 19. number of the precedent examination
the owld and new testament are different and vnequal and noe part of M. Riders discours vnsuspitiouse to tende to the abolishing of all Christian religion Therfor let heauen and earth consent to thes woords of one of the reforming coniuration or of their owne holy brotherhod They indeuoure by darcknes and mists of woords to obscure the cleare veritie inforce them selues to establish a sentence cleane opposit to the woords of the Sonn of God Tilman Hesnusius lib. de presentia Corporis Christi They blaspheme with an impudent and vnreuerend mowth the fleash of Christ They blaspheme barbarouslie and are culpable of the blood of Iesus-Christ and murtherers of him They shutt obstinatly their eyes against the cleere light and by detraction and malice affirme that to be obscure which they will not behowld S. August de vnit Ecclesiae c. 16. To which declaration S. Augustin subscribeth saying audiunt tam lucida manifesta testimonia quae illam toto orbe demonstrant malunt clausis occulis offendere in montem quam in illum ascendere They heare so cleere and manifest proofs which demonstrat the trueth and they had rather stumble their eyes being shutt against the mowunt of Gods Church then mownt to it Catho Priests 1. Cor. 11. This is my bodie which shall bee deliuered for you whoso doth eate vnworthelie c. shall be guiltie of the bodie and bloud of Christ Rider 79. A Most learned writer in the like case brings in an Athenian historie of Pharasylaus a frantick man amongst the Greekes who whensoeuer he saw anie ships arriue in the harbor thought them all his own Athenaeus Dipno sophist lib. 12. tooke an Inuentorie of their wares bad them welcome home verie ioyfully as if they had bin his own seruants ships After the same maner pardon the comparison you deal in the proofe of this question for wheresoeuer you finde in scriptures or fathers hoc est corpus meū this is my bodie or this is my bloud or my flesh is meat trulie c. or except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud c. or the bread which I will giue is my flesh or the like tropical or sacramentall phrase which euer carrieth with it a spirituall sence presentlie you clap hands lift vp Stentorian voices and crie to the Catholikes against vs poore heretickes that all these texts of Scriptures and testimonies of Fathers are on your side and prooue your carnall presence and condemne our opinion as hereticall and damnable and then you register in your note-books as in an Inuentorie all these proofes for your owne proper euidence when as God knowes you are neither Owners Marchants nor faithfull Factores And it shall be directlie prooued that these texts of Scriptures and testimonies of Fathers belong no more to the proofe of your carnall presence then the Merchants ships goods of Athens belonged to franticke Thrasylaus But now to prooue that I speak that the Catholickes may see yea and let maister Henry Fytzsimon trulie censure wee speake nothing without proofe I will beginne to examine your slips and sleights in this place of the 1. Cor. 11. The fowerth parte of the Catholicks proofe by Scriptures for the real presence Fitzsimon Alan Cop. dial 6. c. 27. pag. 914. Vide Ihon VValshe against M. Gilbert Browne 79. THis historie of Thrasylaus the application wherof against Protestants yow may fynde in Alanus Copus is euery bodyes hackney of one that in his owne only imagination and not otherwyse had goods in shipps of others but in trueth had none Veryly any would thinke this example lesse pertinent to vs then to our aduersaryes as well because we follow not selfe frantick imaginations which they doe according Luthers last testimonie of their woords and glosses deuised by giddy brayns as also because all other clayms in Christs woords besyde ours Luth. tō 7. VVittemb fol. 502. are fownd suggestions of Sathan Father of lyes by the confession of the competitours them selues their shame in practising to defeat vs in our right Buter in cap. 6. Ioan. in cap. 26. Math. hath made thē crye as being deceaued lyke so many Trasilaus peccauimus Martin Bucer craueth pardon of God that euer he had witnesed against vs bewitched any with your opinion So did Oecolāpad saye Oecolampad ad Landgra Hess anno 1529. I would most excellent Prince that this right hand of myne had bene chopped off when I began to wryt first of the Lords supper against the Catholick sence see more hereof in our 41. number in the examination n. 7. n. 18. wher is demonstrated that euery cheefe protestant as yf he had rann to a wrong opinion as Trasilaus rann to wrong shipps reuoked his imaginations and challenges to the commendation of trueth and infamie of his former follye Therfor when the meaner sorte of Protestants yet persist to challenge trueth to their opinion as oft as they fynde any by-woord of spiritual Sacramental figuratiue c. in Fathers or Scripturs althowgh ther be with all contayned charter partyes proofs and assurances that those goods be none of theirs they are not only Thrasilaus vaynly clayming but frantickly withstāding sentence giuen against them by God and man ancient and late frend and foe Wherof that in maner of Thrasilaus they refuse all sentence giuen against their claymes and frantickly withstand all Concils yea and Angels and Saincts that denownce them destitut of all trueth and title in the institution of Christs Sacrament let this short testimonie of one of your owne brethren be arbitrer Bullingerus Decad. S. de Cana. fol. 370. Zuinglianos non posse credere Christum esse in caena presentem vero suo Corpore licet omnia in mundo Concilia omnes Angeli Diui id iubeant credere the Zuinglians not to be able to beleeue Christ to be present in the Supper with his true body althowgh all the Cowncils in the world all Angels and Saincts command it showld be beleeued Thus much to restore Thrasilaus Frantick in his imaginations deluded in his suppositions and reproued in his clayme 's among his compagnions who can not beleeue other mens goods to be impertinent to them but are clayming what all the world Concils Angels and Saincts do sentence to be none of theirs therby implying them to haue no other wealth then naked beggerly signes fruictles figures and fantastical and fanatical Thrasilean suppositions by which as S. Epiphan testimonie in the 63. number specifyeth they leaue the substance and lyke Aesops dogg snatch the shaddowe Rider 80. First you bring a peece of a verse so much as you thinke by the sound of your eare will fit your purpose then you cut off the beginning and ending of the same verse which would expound the Apostles meaning and ouerthrow your opinion Then you ioyne a peece of the 17. verse with the 24. verse and ouerskip
it is a name proceeding from meere folly of man that Carolostad vtterly reiected it and that you must be satisfyed with the woord of seale which sayth Bruce God and Christ haue giuen to his Apostle c. Only yf this had bene sayd befor not couertly but playnly and sensiblye we had neuer inueyed against your figuratiue SacrameÌ„t Muscul in loc con c. de canan 2. pag. 327. but against your figuratiue seale And then according to Musculus had we bene neuer the nerer For seale is not fownd so conuenient to specifye your doctrin as appeareth by him in these woords the bread is the body of Christ nether naturaly nor personaly nor realy marke good M. Rider nor corporaly nor yet spiritualy agayne marke I pray you for in the 62. number you are shewed to be a falconer and therfor may obserue your game in your owne phrase nor figuratiuely good Sir attend nor significatiuely you will loose all your opinion yf you take not heede restat post haec omnia Westphal loc cit Clebitius in victoria veritatis ruina Papaâ—us Saxonici argum 12. vt dicamus panemesse corpus Domini sacramentaliter it remayneth after all these that we say the bread is the body of Christ sacramentaly So that this woord Sacrament is nethet allowed nor the woord seale retayned but Sacrament sayth Westphalus then only obserued when Caluinists may shift and lurk vnder it as in this case tearming it a brasen wall being at all other tymes disclaymed as noteth Clebitius Notwithstanding this foisting in of the new fangled woord Seal and enimitie against the woord Sacrament as else where against the woords Christ Churche Catholick traditions preests merit good woorks Romain real Trinitie consubstantial Crosse blesse c. Yet you shall behould our Reformer so Catonicaly to censure this lightnes as yf it had not bene his and his brethrens but our fault Sic curios simulant bacchanalia viuunt Yet mistake me not that I seeme to dissalowe the worde Seale in his naturall signification knowinge that it is founde applyed to Circumcision Gen. 17.10 Rom. 4.11 but what I indeuour is only to taxe this translation of wordes out of the owlde testament into the newe without al authoritie and occasion to prepare a way to exclude al Sacraments of the new testament by proouing them of no greater force then the ceremonies of the ould lawe with whom they agree in appellation P. Martyr 1. Cor. 11. His diuision of three sortes of faithe is borrowed out of Peter Martyr nothing belonginge to any matter in question S. Chrysost hom 45. in Ioan. nothing true and containing nothing needful to be refuted Lastly al his former discourse out of S. Chrisostom of treason by the violence toward the picture as much as toward the Prince in person although it ouerthroweth euery way image-breakers c. yet how it ouerthroweth the point in question is breefly to be declared Yf sayth S. Chrysostom the defylers of the kings robe be noe lesse then the tearers therof punishable what meruayle yf vncleane consciences receauing the body of Christ be as damnable as the crucifiers of him Wherby obserue how this maketh against Protestancie that the vncleane receaue the very body of Christ that it is more treason against Christ to abuse this Sacrament then against a kinge teare to a kings robe it is no lesse then to crucifie him 1. Cor. 10.16 The challice of benediction which wee blesse is it not the communication of the bodie of Christ And the bread which wee blesse is it not the participation of his flesh 97. GEntlemen yee wrong the Apostles text first in your abuse of words Rider Verse 21. secondlie in mistaking the sence Your words be these The challice of benediction Pauls words in Greeke that must be iudge betwixt vs and which wee doe follow if we will follow Christ are these The cup of thanksgiuing And the holie Ghost so expounds his owne meaning after calling it poculum Domini the cup of the Lord. But you are much to be blamed of all good men because you had rather follow some late corrupt translation vse some superstitious inkhorne termes latelie deuised and so forsake the olde Apostolical phrase which the holie Ghost vseth in that holie tongue and in which it is still recorded for our instruction either confesse your ignorance in the Greeke or your malice against the trueth that the Catholickes bee no longer seduced by you that long trusted in you and to your doctrine Againe you say The bread which we blesse we say as Paul said and the holie Ghost pend The bread which we breake Alasse alasse what sinne doe you commit in thus seducing Christs flocke and the Queens subiects who hitherto haue builded their faith vppon your bare words Is this plaine dealing with Gods heritage are you Catholicke Priestes I pray you certifie the Catholikes what tongue or traÌ„slation hath it thus as you pen it The bread which wee blesse I tell you plainelie yet in charitie that you doe belie the Texte falsifie the tongue and seeke to keepe the people in blinde ignorance and superstitious palpable darknes to their euerlasting condemnation vnlesse the Lord recal them and they repent them Paules wordes ar these in Greeke and so your owne Hieroms translation hath them The bread which we break But you are so besotted with the crossing of your fingers which you tel the people is the true Catholick blessing that you forget and forgoe the true blessinge of the cup which is the Apostolical thanksgeuing to God for our redemption purchased in Christs blood whereof the cup is the true signe Againe we say as the holy Ghoste indited it and Paule writte it The communion of the body of Christ you say as no learned man of the Greeke text euer saide Error in the sence of the Texte Rhem. Testament 1. Cor. 10. sect 4. the participation of his fleash Thus much I haue shewed how vntruly you deale First in abusing the wordes of the Apostle Secondly in seducing and deceauing the Catholickes Let here the charitable Catholickes iudge how you wil abuse theire eares with fables that dare thus falsifie the plaine text Now come to shew how you mistake the sence of the words in the text seeking by indirect wresting to make the text prooue your errour which it denieth in flat termes and truth For I assure the Catholickes that nor one word fillable letter or title of this text once sounds of your carnall presence You follow the Rhemish who in this place thus expounds the words of the Apostle The cup which we blesse that is to say the challice of consecration which we Apostles and priests by Christs commission do consecrate c. and afterwards it followeth the Apostle expresly referreth the benediction to the Challice and not to God making the holie bodie and the communicating thereof the effect of the benediction Now let me intreate you to aunswere me
109. The 109. vntruth that this proofe of S. Hilarie proueth we should not receaue Christ by our mouth Nothing remaineth in the world of the bodie and bloud of Christ Catholick Priests but that which daylie is made by the Priest on the Altar 108. GEntlemen I perceiue you are soone wearie of well doing Athan. lib. de Passione Imaginis Christi cap. 7. floruit 375. in your last proofe you confessed a truth with vs 109. euen against your selues But now you leaue Fathers and bring fables 110. Rider and so produce one fable to prooue another fable that is you produce one fable of the crucifying of the image of Christ Like opinion like proofe and the miraculous aboundant gushing of water and bloud out of the image his side that cured all diseases in all parts and places of the world to prooue your carnall presence of the Sacrament by your fained transubstantiation For aunswere to which first I say VVhen fathers helpe not you bringe fables that you should fitter haue placed this proofe in the ranke of your fained miracles following or in your question of images hereafter But to couer the foolerie and forgerie thereof you couch it amongest the auncient Doctors and Fathers of the Church thereby hoping to haue him passe with more credit But I will shew first that you haue not dealt well nor trulie with the Author of this fable nor with the Catholickes of this kingdome because you haue left out such wordes as would wound both your credit in this case and spoile your cause besides your Translation is nothing found You leaue out in two lines these foure words Quasi per manus and spiritualiter you left out quasi because belike it was but an Aduerb of likenesse and so because omne simile is not idem you thought it were better to leaue it behinde then to bring it to your hurt Secondlie you leaue out per manus for your Authour saith per manus sacerdotum by the handes of the Priestes and you leaue them both out and say per sacerdotem least the people should thinke and say if onelie the Priest made it then it can neither haue flesh nor bloud and so the miracle were marred And therfore it were better to leaue out per manus and to say per sacerdotem by the Priest for then might be vnderstood not onelie all the members of his bodie and intentions of his minde but also the gestures and motions of both required to the conception of such a wodden Sauiour And lastlie you leaue out spiritualiter spirituallie hee saith not carnallie and therefore this proofe is verie vnschollerlike alleadged when our question is of a presence carnall you produce a presence spirituall this word makes for vs but that wee scorne and knowe it sinfull to bring in such forgerie for proofe in a question of diuinitie For this you shoulde haue brought in thus which is dailie made by the Priest spirituallie Now how this proofe fitteth you let others censure shame makes mee scilent This fable containeth seuen chapters of the crucifying of the images of CHRIST done by the Iewes for enuie to CHRIST who no sooner pierced the Image his side but Continuò exiuit sanguis aqua The word is Hydria which you may see Iohn 2. verse 6. containes two or three measures or firk nes a piece which shewes it to be a notable loudlie lewd legend forthwith gushed out both water and bloud in such aboundance that they filled manie vesseles with the same and this bloud was carried into all the parts of the world through Asia Affricke Europe and cured all manner of diseases Vpon sight of which miracle the cruell Iewes repented were baptised and presentlie there was a holie (a) Quinto Idus Nouemb. day made in rememberance thereof which was kept with no lesse solemnitie then the feast of Easter and the Natiuitie of our Lord as the Author saith Then in the seuenth and last chapter comes in your proofe which coÌ„cludeth a peace amongst the Cleargie touching the trueth of Christs bloud for now saith the Author there can no other flesh nor bloud of Christ be found in the world then that which is daylie made by the hands of the Priests spirituallie vpon the Altar But this your profe is not trulie translated according to the Latten but because it is a loudelie I will neither reprooue you for your defectiue translation nor correct it for anie mans direction (b) Like Translation like truth for I see no reason to bestow a true traÌ„slation vpon a false miracle or forged fable Other circumstances as where this image was saide to bee kept and brought soorth c. I referre the curious Reader to the foolish 〈◊〉 forged Author But that all the Catholicks of this kingdome may see the reasons that mooue me to think it to be a fable be these all of them gathered out of the bodie of this fable falselie fathered vpon Athanasius Reason 1 The first reason is the occasion for no small error sprung vp in those daies touching the bloud that issued sorth of Christs side on the crosse So seuerall places persons falsly chaleng to them selus that euery one hath a proper piece of Christs crosse Athanasius printed at Paris 1581. pag. 534 c. So our Iesuits and Priests now would perswade the Catho one sort of Priests said that they had the right bloud and another sort of Priests in other citties said that they had Christs verie bloud that issued forth of his side and so the contention among the Priests grew to bee verie hote as it is this day betwixt you Iesuits and Priestes about other matters wherevpon the whole Cleargie met togither at Caesaria in Cappeâ—â—cia for the appeasing of this dangerous broile The reuerend Fathers were no sooner set but vpstart Don Petrus Bishop of Nicomedia said Reuerend Fathers I haue a little booke heere of Athanasius which I greatlie desire to present to your fatherhoode view and consideration Sancta Synodus respondit placet bene vt legatur optaâ—â—â— The holy Synode aunswered wee are verie well pleased and desire it may be read Thus concerning the occasion which was a solemne Synode to appease a foolish superstitious contention amongst the lying couetous Priests of that age when euerie hedge-priest would perswade the simple people that he had in his viall the very bloud of Christ which was of force to pardon their sinnes Reason 2 The stile of this agreeth not with the booke which is knowne to bee Athanasius worke contra Idola a meane Grammarian may see it and discerne it and therefore it cannot be his worke Reason 3 Athanasius writ a most sharp tractate against Idolatrie when he was liuing and now they would father this fable vpon him after his death and therefore it cannot bee his worke for so wee should wickedlie charge that godlie father either with recantation of trueth
his third Tom. pag 142. Rider There was a learned and godlie woman proposed twelue questions of diuinitie to Hierome wherin of which she desired resolution For in those daies it was lawfull for women and all men to aske doubts touching religion and for their further instruction consolation might read Gods word freelie conferre touching matters that concerned their saluation And this greatly blemisheth your Roman doctrine that will haue neither men nor women to read diuinitie the reason is this least they should see your errors and forsake your profession For this is your strongest tenure Marke this yee Catholickes to keepe them in blindnesse with ydle ceremonies dumb shewes Latten seruice But I trust in Christ shortlie to see most of their eies opened that wil discouer your priuie plots discourage your haughtie stomacks and generallie forsake your new religion being in deed but mans inuention This is the second question of the twelfth but you omit some words cut off some which obscures the matter But if a little charitable chiding would make you more painfull in your bookes and lesse carefull to please mens humors I could finde in my heart to bestow it vpon you but praemoniti praemuniti you are now forewarned I hope you will bee here after better armed or better minded which I wish with all my soule as to my selfe But your proofe is thus in Latten Si ergo panis qui de caelo descendit corpus est Domini vinum quod discipulis dedit sanguis illius est noui Testamenti qui pro multis effusus est in remissionem peccatorum Iudaicas fabulas repellamus c. If therefore the bread that descended from heauen bee the bodie of the Lord and the wine which he gaue his disciples be his bloud of the new testament which is shed for many for the remission of sinnes then let vs cast away all Iewish fables Here you omit Si ergo and noui Testamenti qui pro multis effusus est in remissionem peccatorum If therefore and of the new Testament which is shed for manie for the remission of sinnes All this you haue left out which was ill done What now can you gather out of this to prooue that Christes bodie is made of bread and his bloud of wine no substance of either creature remaining but onelie Christs carnall presence as he was on the crosse Surelie here is not one word silable or letter to prooue it but the contrarie You wronged the father so to mangle him yet as you deliuer him it proueth nothing of the manner of Christs presence that is in question but the matter neuer in controuersie for saith shee to this learned â—â—ther if therefore the bread which came downe from heauen bee the bodie of Christ so she speakes of Christs diuinitie that came downe from heauen for his humanitie did not and our question is of his humanitie by transubstansiation in the Sacrament so that this proofe nothing sorteth your purpose And the bloud here spoken of is his bloud of the new Testament shed on the crosse not in the Sacrament once for all not for anie that pleased the Priest And therefore as she said Iudaicas fabulas repellamus let vs cast away Iewish fables So in Gods name for the loue of Gods trueth and of the peoples saluation cast yee from you all Munkish fables and forged legends that haue misled the people into this blinde superstition and ioyne with vs to teach Christs precious flocke the old Apostolicall and Catholicke religion commaunded in Gods word practised in the primitiue Church that you with vs and we wiâ—h you and all in the Lord may now in this plentifull vintage so labour in the Lords vinyard his Church according to our talents receiued that euery one of vs may deliuer his talent with aduantage of manie soules and then we shall be patakers of that sweet saying Wel done thâ—u good and faithfull seruant enter into thy maisters ioy Which God graunt to vs both And so to the next as followeth The 11. parte of the Second proofe concerning S. Hierome VVherein is discussed whom and how we allowe and disalowe to reade Scriptures and heretical bookes and whether Protestants or we doe most Symbolize with Iewishnes Fitzsimon Cart. lib. 1 pag. 103. lib. 2. pag. 303. 502. lib. 3. pag. 89. 90. Caus â—ial 8. 11. Fulk against D. Bristow pag. 15. 54. 115. CArtwright saith there is not such synceritie to be looked for at Hieroms hand as from others that went befor him That he is a cownterfeit that he often strayneth the text and for milke some tyme draweth blood Causeus saith that he is no lesse damned then Lucifer Fulke that he was but a rayler Sainct Hierome in this allegation teacheth the wyne giuen to the Disciples to haue bene Christs blood In the selfe same resolution to Hedibia he saith the bread quem fregit Dominus deditque discipulis esse corpus Domini Saluatoris which our Lord broke and gaue to his disciples to be the body of our Saluiour Els where he saith ipse Saluator est S. Hieron ad Damas de Filio prodigo cuius quotidie carne vescimur cruore potamur it is our very Saluiour whose fleash we are fedd withall and whose blood we drinke Come foorthe M. Rider and play your wonted parte Come tell vs what you oppose against this First you ronne halfe way in your tale befor you stumble at this block in one only woord At leinthe hemm and speake out your mynde suerly say you here is not one woord sillable or leter to proue that Christs body is made of bread and his blood of wyne Not one woord leter or sillable man Let other mens witts and eyes be iudge how couragiously the 134. vntruth The 134. vntruth is deliuered But suerly the baker and the pillorie once againe must not be suffred to parte so sleightly but that we may examine his cause by parcels and yet not in prolixe or tedious maner That women might aske doubts touching religion is as lawfull now as in those dayes That they might vulgarly read Gods woord or the Scripture seemeth an vntruth at least it is not proued but only affirmed by M. Riders woord the valew whereof is knowen That is was not thought conuenient S. Hieron 103. I gesse by these woords of S. Hierome of whom now we treate Only the arte of Scripture saith he is that which euery one challengeth This the chatting ould wyfe this the doting ould man this the babling Sophister this on euery hand men presume to teache before they learne it Nay more anciently sayd Tertullian Tertul. de praescripe Omnes tument omnes scientiam pollicentur Ipsae mulieres haereticae quam procaces quae audeant docere contendere c. All are puffd vpp all do professe knowledg The very hereticall women how malapert how audacious to teach to dispute c. of which
The 142. 143. 144. 145. 146 vntruth The 142. vntruth is that he will shew this allegation of Leo to be against vs. The 143. vntruth that we deale falsely with Gods woord and woorks of men The 144. that we haue deminished the authoritie of Popes and Fathers The 145. that the errour of Manichees had infected all Christendome For neuer was any heresie so vniuersal much lesse it of the Manichees The 146. vntruth that S. Leo saith the truth of Christs body and bloud to be as well in Baptisme as in the Eucharist For first this man that often blameth me yf I alleadge not woords next before or after my purpose although they had not bene pertinent he himself ouerskipped aboue a hondred lynes to fynde out some seely shroude remayning neuer the lesse as naked as the wood cock whose only beak is couered The woordes are Ecclesia quae de sponsi carne prodijt S. Leo loc citat quando ex latere crucifixi manante sanguine aqua Sacramentum redemptionis regenerationis accepit The Church which issued out of the fleash of hir spouse when out of the syde of him crucifyed flowing out blood and water she receaued the Sacrament of redemption and regeneration In which woords there is nether Baptisme nor Eucharist signifyed but only declared that the passion of Christ by similitude of effect called a Sacrament hath bene a redemption and regeneration to the Church What affinitie hath such woords with them by M. Rider lately related What a decretal and obstinat proceeding is this against perspicuous truth and in desperate deprauations to falsifie Fathers so wittingly to depraue euidences so contrariously It is Faedum mansisse diu vacuumue redijsse Filthye to haue sought so farre and departed so destitute The vsual artifice of such Doctors is when they are pressed and suppressed with any authoritie to search most carefully some woord in the place alleaged wherby they may in some shew euacuat the brunt of such authoritie being So infatuated with loathsomnes and hatred against Christs institution that therby being as Luther himselfe saith become madd and gyddye Luth. tom 7. fol. 397. what soeuer they take hould of although it be but a strawe yet they imagin it to be a speare and that at euery stroke they kill thowsandes Neuer could a Father expresse better the qualites of his children The 147. vntruth is The 147. vntruth that S. Leo by mentioning the woord Spiritual doth exclude all our doctrine This vntruth is at least a dozen tymes detected and therfor needeth no further refutation It is cleere that S. Leo here saith the Veritie of the body and blood of Christ and consequently not a figure only to be one of the Sacraments of our faith not vnknowen to children Which also S Augustin confirmeth And S. Leo to putt it out of doubt that he had rather indure any martyrdome then thinke otherwise he aduiseth Christians generaly sic sacrae mensae communicare debere vt nihil prorsus de veritate corporis sanguinis ambigant So to communicat at the sacred table S. Leo Serm. 6. de iâ—iunio 71. mensis as by no means to doubt of the Veritie of the body and blood Yf you requyre the cause of his knowledge he answereth Hoc enim ore sumitur quod fide creditur For that is receaued by mouth which is beleeued by harte These woords M. Rider are peremptorie No glossing no racking no quircks can auoyd them but that they leaue you a spectacle to God Angels and men full of shame and confusion for your vnaduised clayme and canterized conscience The 148. vntruth The 148. blasphemous vntruth is that the body of Christ made of bread is a phantastical bodye for in the 46. number M. Rider is made to conuict himselfe of such vntruth by fynding according S. Augustin to be no other body then was borne of the Virgin Marie Tertul. l. de resur carnis Such beastly accusations do well informe what you are because Spurciloquium decet haereticos ac Ethnicos as Tertullian saith For your Apostrophe to the Citie of Dublin and imprecation to God to iudge betwixt you and me For the first Dublin knoweth you too well and few of your sorte better not only for your former hindrance of the bakers therin but also for your transferring their trade of Merchandise into your house and liberties among your sonns in law they being forreners and very fleash worms in Dublin Such as nether beare sesse nor presse watch nor auarde towle nor custome and in the meane tyme suck the iuice of the Citie into their priuat purses vnder the warmth of your wyngs to vse your phrase and in the protection of your liberties So then Dublin should be very seaseles not to know you familiarly and particularly For the next be not headlong in such importunat prouocations against your soule God often permitteth sentence of hipocritical imprecations to take effect Let your brother in the Lord Schlusselburg lib. 2. fol. 68. Schlusselburg against your owne brother in the Lord Iohn Amand euen in our purpose and mater informe you saying The sayd Iohn Amand to haue cryed in publick sermon pray brethren and hearers that God instantly cause me to dye an ill death that I further seduce none yf I be faultie teaching this errour And thervpon he was stricken with a cruell cholick and breathed out his miserable sowle Polid. Virg. l. 8. hist Anglic. I referr you for breuities sake to the ruthfull example of Earle Godwyne related by Polidore virgil wherby you may be reclaymed from such execrations against your selfe To our purpose one of Dublin regarding your strange dealing and disputing pertinently declared it in a borrowed verse out of F. Cottons treatise of the Sacrifice Prisca tonas ridet noua das spernit ardua nescit Imperplexa fugit testificata furit Do you bring ould he scorns or new he fretts Or hard you fynd him dull Or playne he shrinks or past all doubt He storms and stands willfull Thus much for the fathers as a skantling or taste Catho Priests leauing the surplus to the curious Reader I might haue recited Martiall Epist ad Burdegalenses cap. 3. Anaclet Epist generall Dionisius Areop cap. 3. page 3. who liued within the compasse of the first hundred yeares but I obserue (a) I praie you obserue veritie I thinke your meaning was 500. years otherwise it cannot be true breuitie as by the next proofe shall appeare 118. 119. GEntlemen Martiiall neither in this place nor in the tenne chapters following saith anie thing against vs but for vs Rider and as I thinke altogither against you For Martiall reproueth those that honoured such Priests as â—acrificed mutuis surdis statuis to dumbe and deaffe images which neerlie toucheth your freeholde and diswaded them from it saying Martiall Nunc autem multo magis sacerdotes Dei omnipotentis qui vitaÌ„ vobis tribuunt in calice
olim a famous and principal Protestant imputeth his Conuersion to be a Catholick to no other booke so much as to the same Thus then sayth the sayd Vincentius Audies etenim quosdam ipsorum dicere Vincent Lyrin de prophan her nou Cap. 26. Venite o insipientes miseri qui vulgo Catholici vocitamini discite fidem veram quam praeter nos nullus intelligit quae multis ante seculis latuit nuper verò reuelata ostensa est You shal perceaue some of them to saye Come o yee fooles and miserable people who commonly are called Catholicks and learne the true faythe which none vnderstand but we which hath bene long hidd but is now of late reuealed and shewed What could any Catholick or right beleeuer speake more confidently toward his true beleefe Will yow giue eare to M. Riders woords of lyke mowlde and honestie Yow and your late Rhomish Catholicks do quite dissent from Christs trueth and owld Romishe religion And therfore remember whence yow are fallen and returne to the ancient trueth By which woords he nether goeth beyond nor astray from these former hereticks as truely pronouncing them as they It is impossible at this discouerie of his dealing but his mynde sayth out of Plautus Plautus in Cap. Nec mendacijs subdolis mihi vsquam mantellum est meis To my guilfull frawds there is no shrowd remaining What then was his intention in publishing his Caueat wherby was to insue such infamie and confusion as he could not be ignorant might haue succeeded I answer the same which is related in the 116. number of one of his brethren in the Lord. Who being challenged of his exorbitant lying answered Quam diu potero clades adferam Remund Rufus in duplicatione Con. Patrona Molinei Fol. 76. latebunt quam diu poterunt Valebunt apud vulgus ista mendacia As long as I can I will indomadge it shalt remayne secreat as long as it maye among the people these lyes wil be currant Such was Stratocles the Athenian who in all post hast returning home from the battayle wherin the Athenians were ouerthrowen certifyed the contrarie that they had vaÌ„quished their enemyes wherupon triumphes of ioye were appointed and great feastings and gratulations vsed within two dayes after the trueth being reuealed and euery one offended with Stratocles for his lying he answered I had more care to content yow two whole dayes then respect to haue towld one lye So is it with my Cauailero he esteemed more the ioye for a moment by being thowght a learned Doctor great confuter or gladsoome relator of false victories by vntruthes how great soeuer then the disgrace which might insue which he thought he would auoyd as long as he might and when he cowld no longer to defende his dissimulation by example of Beza Cartwright allowing in such cases to be lawfull to neglect all trueth and fidelitie as appeareth in the 99. number The third proofe That the chiefe Protestants did beleeue the reall presence Catho Priests and alleadged all the Fathers for the maintenance thereof 120. 121. 122. 123. THis trulie is worthie admiration that none of the fathers Luther Tom. 7. Defens verb. coenae fol. 391. whereof there is an infinite number but did speake cleane contrarie to Sacramentaries And though the fathers all with one mouth affirme yet the Sacramentaries harden themselues to denie them And they would neuer vtter this that Christ his bodie is not in the blessed Sacrament if they had anie regard of the Scripture and were not their hearts full of infidelitie Idem fol. 390. I trulie would giue the franticke Srcramentaries this aduise Idem Ibid. fol. 411. that seing they will needes bee mad they should play their parts rather whollie then in part therefore let them make short worke and rase out of the scripture these words This is my bodie which is giuen for you For touching their faith it is all one if thus they kepe it Christ tooke bread and gaue thankes brake it and gaue it to his Disciples sayng take eate doe this in rememberance of mee For this proueth sufficientlie that bread is to be eaten in rememberance of Christ. This is the whole and entire Supper of the Sacramentaries In vaine doe the Sacramentaries beleeue in God the Father God the Sonne Luther Tom. 2. fol. 263. and God the holie Ghost seeing they denie this one article as false of the reall presence whereas Christ doth say This is my bodie The whole opinion of the sacrament the Sacramentaries began with lies Luther in Ep. ad Ioh. HaruagiuÌ„ Typograh Argent Rider De Cons dist 2 canon prim in glossa tertia tenet page 429. and with lies they defend the same GEntlemen you knowe Luther was a Munke and though he recanted Poperie and vtterlie condemned your Transubstantiation as a fable hauing neither Scripture nor Father to warrant it yet he stuck fast in another error fitlie named (a) Luthers heresie was in Rome befor Luther was borne Consubstantiation which errour hee also suckt from the Popes owne btest as you may see in his distinctions For you in your Transubstantiation teach that of the substance of bread and wine is made by the Priest the verie naturall bodie and bloud of Christ no substance of either remaining but onelie the outward formes Luther by his Consubstansiation saith that Christs bodie and bloud bee receiued togither in the bread vnder or with the bread both substance and accidents of bread and wine remaining Now I pray you how fitteth this your purpose you will say in this that Luther held a reall presence True but Luther denied your reall presence as a fable And yet his opinion was farre wide from the trueth Wee regard not Luthers censure against vs for Christ his spirituall presence no more then you doe for his comdemning of your Transubstansiation And Luther is more to be commended then all the Popes Cardinals Priests and Iesuits in Christendome who with Augustine though he did erre yet would not perseuer in errors as you and they doe Ad Lectorem Tom. 1. page 1. least he should be an hereticke and therefore in his Epistle to the Christian Reader saith in this manner Ante omnia oro pium lectorem oro propter Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum vt ista legat cum iudicio imo cum multa miseratione sciat me fuisse aliquando Monachâ—â— Before all things Quid aequius peti potuit or first of all I beseech the godlie Reader and I beseech him for our Lord Iesus Christ his sake that he will read these my workes iudiciallie with great compassion and pittie and let him knowe and vnderstand that I was sometimes a Monke As if he should say if I haue erred or doe erre impute that to my Monkerie Poperie which in deed is but a forge of bles and a legend of lies The Priests thinke euerie real presence to
Besyd which els where he sayth They wil say any thing boast of any thing confidently affirme any thing but proue nothing vnlesse it be by friuolous bragging of the most cleere trueth in which Finem modum nullum faciunt they obserue no meane or ende Nemo eorum obtestationibus iactationibus quicquam credat Nam eos mentiri dupliciter mentiri certissimum est Let noe man sayth he beleeue their protestations and braggs for it is certaine that they lye and lye againe Secondly for answer I say the being of Luther a monck long before not to be a lawfull pretext among protestants to auoyde all opinions of his nor his request to haue pittie toward his quondam being a monck to be transferred from what particular point he in that place applyed it vnto for otherwyse nothing he sayd should be approued by any protestants Martyn Taburnus contra profuges Vitembergicos Caluinistes Luth tom 7. VVittemb fol. 502. tom 8. Ienâ— Germanico fol. 174. Confess Tygur trac 3. fol. 108. It therfor that by noe studye conioyning therto ardent inuocation of God as him to haue done Martin Taburnus s ayth nor by any other means although he carefully inquyred all occasions to harme the Pope therby could otherwyse seeme to him but an heresie euen then when he had as he sayth him selfe one foote in his graue how can the dislyking of this opinion be imputed to his some tyme being a Monck I sayth he wil carye this testimonie and this glorie to the tribunal seat of Christ my saluioure that I haue with all ernestnes condemned these fanatical men and enemyes of the Sacrament in what place soeuer they be vnder the sunne c. And agayne Luth. in epist. ad Iacob ecclesiae Bremen Doctorem an 1546. Mihi omnium infelicissimo satis est vna ista beatitudo Beatus vir qui non abijt in confilio Sacramentariorum To me the most vnhappie that the blessednes is sufficient Blessed is he that hath not gone in the Consil of the Sacramentarians And agayne Idem libel con Sacramentarios Hereticos serio censemus alienos ab Ecclesia Dei esse Zuinglianos Sacramentarios omnes qui negant Christi corpus sanguinem ore carnali sumi in venerando Eucharistiae Sacramento we accompt in great earnestnes hereticks and strangers to the Church of God all Zuinglians and Sacramentarians who denye Christs body and blood in the venerable Sacrament of the Eucharist to be receaued with a corporal mowthe This he affirmeth whom all the learned Protestants that euer were so much extolled yea his very aduersaries To Caluin Calu. de libro arbitr con Pighâ—um l. 1. pag. 192. Beza in Iconibus Illyricus in c. 14. Apoc Amsdorf in 1. Tom. Luth. in prefat Alber. con Carolostad l. 7. B. D. 8. Cyriacus con Steph. Agric. fol. 6. A Iuel def Apol. par 4. c. 4. n. 2. Fox in calendario VVhitak con Campian pag. 191. The 151. vntruth he is an Elias out of whose mowth God thundred his trueth which Alberus in lyke woords confirmeth To Beza He is the principal instrument of Christianitie in Germanie To Illyricus he is the Angel fleeing through the midst of heauen and hauing the eternall gospell of whom is mention in Apoc. the 14. To Mathesius he is the supreame father of the Church To Amisdorfe he who neuer had his lyke in the Christian world To Alberus a very Paul To him and Illyricus againe A second Elias and one sufficient alone to appease Gods wrathe To Iuel Melancthon Ionas Pomeran Whytaker and Fox he is the light of the world a Sainct the Father of trueth Quicquid agit mundus Luther vult esse secundus VVhat euer shift be fownd Luther wil be secounde and much more reported in our first 20. number What is M. Rider compared with all these nay with the meanest of these The next aunswer to Luther is that he entred into another errour of companation which by the 151. vntrueth he sayth Luther had sucked out of the Popes owne breast For first there is noe such Chapter as he citeth for proofe in al the decretals Secondly had there bene any errour mentioned in the decretals to haue bene by the Popes condemned and not by any Pope or Papist defended is it not a Riderian and ridiculous sequel that such had bene the Popes Doctrin and sucked out of the Pops owne breast because the Pope mentioneth it by way of abhominable doctrin by him condemned As for Luthers other errors let his disciples make apologies for them against M. Rider And for his being against vs we howld it a great honor But what is that to yow whose ringleader he was Yf he did not perseuer in errour as yow say how can it be but his last and lowdest condemnation of your doctrin doth not make such doctrin to be confessed an errour and not erroneusly condemned by Luther Luther by your confession remayning in no error and condemning and detesting it as both erreneous and heretical How our opinion the Sacramentarian opinion and Luthers opinion are reported Fitzsimon The 152. vntruth 121. IN the very first relation of our doctrin issueth out the 152. vntrueth Doe we say besyd bread and wyne Christ to be in the B. Sacrament Or rather without bread and wyne you beare vs witnes your selfe befor your replye to the 6. of S. Ihon that we teache all bread and wyne to be transubstantiated therby you register now against your selfe this sayd vntrueth In the same first aunswer The 153. vntruth you adioyne the 153. vntrueth that you teache the body and blood of Christ to be in the supper Witnes your owne woords at the 103. number the Sacrament and Christs body to differr as much as the lamb and the passouer c. which had no more vnion then the wyne that is sould and the iuye garland that is a signe of the sale therof Ioyne also these two I pray you together that Christ is not giuen but in his outward signe and yet that the body and blood in the supper is geuen not only by signe but as you say realy and truely Giuen and not giuen only in signe and not only in signe but also in substance Is not this fast and loose passe and repasse off and on pro and contra with and against Is not this a pretie ridle In your third answer to the second question bursteth foorth the 153. vntrueth For you do not say nor can say Spiritualy vnlesse you depart from your first martyrs to whom you haue obliged your selfe to consent and from Musculus As appeareth in the 108. number Also our aunswer is not intierly deliuered For we affirme not only corporaly but also spiritualy In your third question and third aunswer is contayned first the 154. vntrueth The 154. 155. 156. vntruth that Scripturs and Fathers say with you Secondly the 155. vntrueth that Christ in this institution made any
promise Thirdly the 156. vntrueth that Christ by any promise assureth all his benifits to the worthy receauer for there is noe such mater In the 4. question The 157. 158. vntruth and first aunswer is the 157. vntrueth that we say Christ to be receaued alone with the mowth as manifowldly is testifyed In the 4. aunswer is the 158. vntrueth that whatsoeuer Christ giueth by promise must be receaued by faythe For he giueth damnation to the wicked infidels which he had often promised yet they haue no faythe He giueth resurrection to our bodyes in his promises yet bodyes haue no faythe He giueth health foode attyre by many promises to his seruants which can not be receaued or vsed but only by their bodyes He giueth baptisme and grace to children yet they haue no actual fayth he giueth by promise foode to the fowles of the ayre to the fish of the sea and to the beasts of the earth can these be sayd to haue fayth yet I confesse they may haue as much as puritans haue none at all O rich Deanry of S. Patricks how wouldest thou groane if thou couldst feele the heft of the diuinitie of thy deane wherin such falshood standeth for infallible principles and such impietie is tearmed the woord of the Lord How many vntruethes therfor are implyed in these woords none of meanest capacitie but must perceaue In the fift question and first aunswer is the 159. vntrueth The 159. vntruth that it is absurd by our bodyes to receaue Christ as also that we exclude the receauing by our sowles In the third aunswer to the 5. question is the 160. vntrueth The 160. vntruth that ether such institution as I sayd was a promise or a thing spiritual alone and not also corporal The residue is disproued in the premisses And consequently The 161. vntruth that it is the 161. vntrueth that any may venture their sowles vpon such doctrin Toward the next question let it be vnderstood what we say to be sayd according the saluation of the godly and damnation of the vngodly or els it wil be a further vntrueth That it hath bene proued by you that the only godly beleeuers receaue Christ is the 162. vntrueth The 162. 163. vntruth To the 7. question and third answer it is the 163. vntrueth that Christ crucifyed is the inward grace of the Sacrament both because Christ truely gaue his disciples his body vncrucifyed as also because Christ being a substance can not be grace which is an accident Although he is and well may be called the giuer of grace And fayne would I know two things mentioned in this aunswer of yours to the 7. question First why you say Christ crucifyed with all his merits to be the mater or inward grace of the Sacrament considering Christ ordained it befor his being crucifyed Secondly why you allowe any other his merits besyd his passion considering that in the 83. number 14. examen you affirme only his passion or rather the wownd of his syde to haue bene fruictfull for your redemption To the 8. question and first aunswer it is the 164. vntrueth The 164. vntruth For we say no such mater of carnal eating but of corporal true real and substantial eating and that not only by mowth but also by charitie and faythe The 165. vntrueth is The 165. vntruth that you say with scriptures in so saying bothe because there is no such scripture in owld or new testament as also because it is false that all Christs merits are yours or that all were purchased only by his Passion For many yea infinit The 166. 167. 168. 169. and 170. vntruth were purchased befor his passion In the 9. question is the 166. vntrueth that we say carnally and the 167. vntrueth that you say with scriptures In the 11. question is the 168. vntrueth that we say Christs body is euery where and the 169. that Scriptures or Creed say he is only in heauen In the 12. question is the 170. vntrueth that we say Christ according to bothe natures to be euery where The summe of this aunswer to Luthers authoritie is that Luther hath fayled lyke a monck that the Father of protestant trueth as them selues tearme him is but a Father of error A good verdict For the name of Protestants here taken from the Lutherans we will examine how rightly it is done VVho are in deede Protestants and wherfor so called Fitzsimon Luc. 8. 122. ARe you gott in from puritans among protestants you haue not obserued the conseile of our Saluioure when you are inuited to a mariadge to keepe the lower place I must therfor dismount you into your rancke First the name of Protestant sprong vpon this following occasion When the Reforming profession had purchased many followers as it is no more meruaile to behould numbers to follow a doctrin of libertie then waters to fall from a height when a gappe is opened and the Emperoure Charles the fift would fayne vnderstād the grownds of their perswasions Sleidan lib. 6. fol. 101. 102. 109. Lauather in sua historia pag. 19. they ioyned their heads together and made a collection of opinions to which they protested to stand to Which booke being deliuered to the Emperoure at Augusta otherwyse called Auspurg anno 1530. some thirteene yeeres after Luther had apostated and the greater parte by manifowld protestants wherby the name begon promising to auow the said booke the booke to this day is called the Confession of Augusta and the only defenders therof are called protestants Nether do the Zuinglians in Heluetia clayme this name but are knowen by the title of Sacramentarians nether the Geneuians or French reformers but are knowen by the title of Hugenots nor the Flemish rebells but are knowen by the title of Ghewes Secondly concerning this name of protestants they to whom it doth belong haue duble cause to applawd greatly to them selues Such only as I forshewed are the Lutherans and they only that are consenting to the forsayd confession of Augusta The first cause is that the Zuinglians the Englishe the Frenche c. haue sought Brentius in appendice and that as by their owne report is testifyed with teares to be admitted into theire concord yet that they neuer would admitt or tolerat them as appeareth vpon the Article of the creed in the communion of Saints And when they blazed abroad that they had the good lyking of them the protestants tooke it most iniuriously and as a great slaundre sharply refuted it Exam. nu 19. The second cause is that their very name of Protestants is so much affected euen by them who are opposit vnto their profession as appeareth in England as that they couet it and striue for it In deed the cause why that name had first accesse into England was because the first reformers who resorted therto Tindal Frith Barns Cranmer c. were of the Lutheran stampe with a peculiar small diuersitie
Now M. Rider are you a Protestant Yf you consent with the Augustan confession and so be a protestant for otherwyse you can not then you must recant all your opinion against the real presence and consent with Luther But you perhapps will distinguish English Protestants with Thomas Digges your brother Puritan Thomas Digges in his humble motiues anno 1601. from all others by calling them state Protestants and so intrude incroache among them But you can not For you haue impugned the blessing of the Crosse as a magical charminge which they allowe Numb 53. NuÌ„b. 62. You haue impugned Baptisme to be a true lauer of regeneration making it only an externall signe or seale that only to the faithfull which they disproue as they may the scripture instructing theÌ„ therto saying Mat. 3.11 Mar. 1.8.16.16 Luc. 3.16 Ioan. 1.32 Acts 2.37.38 c. 22.17 Tit. 3.5 1. Pet. 3.21 to be coÌ„tayned therin the holy Ghost remission of sinns eternal lyfe it being the holy Ghosts lauer or font of regeneration and renouation wherby and by the woord of lyfe we are clensed from synne and saued c. To which the doctrin of the communion booke accordeth in these woords This infant The communion booke printed at London by Tho. Vawtroller anno 1574. in the tra of priuat baptisme Com. booke in â—he forme of publick baptisme who being borne in originall synne and in the wrathe of God now by the lauer of regeneration in baptisme is ascribed into the number of Gods children and made heyre of eternall lyfe Againe that by that sacrament Children be regenerated and graffed into the body of Christs congregation and made partakers of the death of our Saluiour So then baptisme is more then an external signe and not only of the elect among true state Protestants from whom M. Rider hauing sequestred him selfe in no maner or way the name of Protestant is belonging to him Also he hath impugned out of ministring the Communion Number 68. the woords of Christs institution which by state Protestants are allowed and vsed in all their communion books Fowerthly he impugneth inequalitie among the clergie Fiftly the name of prieste Sixtly that in the new testament by imposition of hands or otherwyse there is any function more belonging to some then others whether they be men Numb 98.99 or women which is altogether ranck puritancie and the very quintessence of the holy reforming consistorial discipline And yet this man so playne a puritan will take to him selfe the name of a protestant imitating the nature of Polypus a fishe which borroweth the coloure of whatsoeuer it sticketh vnto wherby not being mistrusted it deceaueth and receaueth all preye passing by So my Puritan being omnium horarum homo a man for all tymes and professions will loose nothing within his reache although he should change his shape and name from Puritan into a state Protestant Vide Paulo ante num 100. and back agayne Wherunto he hath his warrant dispensation as I sayd from Beza and Cartwright Now as I beleeue M. Rider is fallen into deepe confusion of him who haueing mounted at the mariadge afterward cum rubore Luc. 14. nouissimum locum tenuit with shame was contented with the lowest place for separating him selfe from Catholicks and intruding among Protestants from whom he is as the new phrase of souldiours beareth reformed among puritans by whom I thinke in my conscience but that they care more for number then participation in their compagnie he showld be cast off 123. Is not thinke you this a great alchimie to change and conuert euery thing Fitzsimon to his purpose Let vs bring Scriptures Fathers and all testimonies to warrant our doctrin they are sayd not to be for our purpose but against it Let vs bring Scriptures Fathers and his owne brethren disprouing his imaginations they are sayd not to be against them but for him But that it may be knowen The 171. vntruth this to be the 171. vntrueth First here is declared that by factions of opinions the real presence is denyed a thing saith M. Rider in the 28. number neuer denyed by vs nor euer in question betwixt Protestant and Papist Now at least these protestants here alleaged writing to the late Queene of England in this allegation shew two vntruethes contayned in M. Riders denial One that it was neuer denyed th' other that it was neuer in question Yea in the same place they request hir maiestie to beware of the Pharisaical leauen of them so denying it as by them the woords of Christ most playne most euident most puissant be ouerthrowen If I were at leasure I would worthely persecute such denials according to their desert But in trueth I am not at leasure being often imployed from morning to twelue of the clock in hearing confessions in exhorting and catechising in performing offices of charitie in not omitting the domestical employments incident to one in his third yeare of probation In so much as when I affoord any paynes to resolue M. Riders articles it is only at vacant and vnperceaued tyme by others This proofe that protestants approue the real presence shall be duely fortifyed by all cheefe Protestants and most approued of all contryes in the world First Berengarius the master author of the contrary opinion sayth Ego Berengarius corde credo ore confiteor Floruit an 1579. De consecrat dist 2. cap. Ego Beren Fox Acts. pag. 146. panem vinum que ponuntur in altari per mysterium sacrae orationis verba nostri Redemptoris substantialiter conuerti in veram propriam viuisicatricem carnem sanguinem Domini nostri Iesu Christi non tantum per signum virtutem Sacramenti sed etiam in proprietate naturae I Berengarius in hart do beleeue and confesse by mouthe the bread and wyne which are placed vpon the altar Theuet vies des hommes illustres lib. 3. fol. 128. Gal Malmsbur lib. 3. de gestis Anglorum Papyrius Masson in Anal. Francorum lib. 3. in Philip. â—ege Gerson con Romant Vixit an 1369. VVicklephus epist. ad Ioan. episcopum Lincoln Huss apud Ioan Pezibranium lib. de non remaneÌ„tia panis con VVicklephistas by the mysterie of sacred prayer and woords of our Redemptor to be substantialy conuerted into the true propre and liuely fleash and blood of our Lord Iesus Christ Not only by signe and vertu of a Sacrament but also in the proprietie of nature And in this beleefe he dyed as diuers relate So that here is the head of M. Riders opinion fallen from him Secondly Wickleph thus sayth agaâ—nst them who slandred him to be of a contrary opinion At ego credo vsque ad mortem meam volo desendere quod postquam legitimus Sacerdos rite protulit sacra verba super panem quod sub forma panis sit verum corpus Christi but I beleeue and will desend to my deathe that after
madnes in Kemnitius to haue allowed internal adoration and not external It being also as shortly after appeareth forged vntruely The 172. vntruth maketh vp the 172. vntrueth But sayth he Kemnitius is against vs. I answer that is our glorie Non estenim speciosa laâ— in ore peccatoris It were noe commendation for vs such wicked sectarists should commend vs but a great benefit that they impugne vs. Now wil you behould the promised sporte by M. Riders accompting Kemnitius his good frend It appeareth by his impugning with tooth and nayle the allegations which by Kemnitius are produced in proofe of adoration Will you M. Rider be so vncurteous toward your frend will you make vs behould a iarr where you sayd there was none will you be a continual registrer against your selfe of vntruethes He acknowledgeth yf you obserue him well that Kemnitius chargeth them with impietie that denye the real presence or adoration of Christ therin Wherunto he promiseth distinctly to answer First that point of the real presence and of suche impietie he gamboleth ouer nimbly without stumbling therat This then is the 173. The 173. vntruth vntrueth that he fulfilleth not that parte of his promise Secondly he translateth and denounceth out of S. Augustin what so often before he denyed was euer sayd or thought by S. Augustin or other in six hondred yeares after S. Augustin that Christ gaue that very fleash to vs to eate which was borne of Marie and wherin he walked here in earthe Adding therto that none eateth that fleash but he that first adoreth it The 174. vntruth Yet by the 174. vntrueth sayth M. Rider that wickedly we abuse S. Augustin How could we abuse him whom not we but Kemnitius alleaged to proue Christ in the B. Sacrament should be adored How do we abuse him whom not we but M. Rider translateth so as Kemnitius had informed and as we had euer confirmed What after he wisheth vs to proue that in the B. Sacrament is Christ who was borne of the Virgin Marie and visibly walked and was giuen to our saluation he may fynde it besyd this euident proofe by him selfe translated proued in the numbers 37. 40. 43. 46. 71. The 175. vntrueth is The 175. vntruth that Fayth is the cheefest branche of Gods honour First Sainct Paul expressly sayth That Charitie is greater Secondly yf it were not vntrue the cheefest branche of Gods honour would be not in God him selfe nor in Christ his Sonne nor in all heauen for fayth is not in them or in heauen but that which folâ—oweth faythe to witt not to see God any longer in enigmate sed sacie ad faciem in a darke resemblance but face to face Thirdly consider how â—mpertinent such vnfaythfull infidelitie toward S. Paul toward Gods honour and toward trueth and reason is intermedled in this place Our Saluioure to be called a breaden God fabulous fleashe and our adoration of him but external apishe worshipp were points fitly conioyned with such disdayne toward Gods sacred woords honoure wherby contrary to all beleefe God is sayd not to haue in him selfe but out of him selfe his cheefe honour yet philosophie teacheth honor non est in honorante sed in honorato honour is not in him that honoureth but in him who is honoured Yf any would vnderstand more of S. Augustins mynde toward the adoration of Christ in the B. Sacrament let him peruse the Augustinian confession collected by Hierome Torrens Confess August c. 6. l. 3. §. 5. to haue it manifested abundantly Let it now suffice that he teacheth Saluberrimum Corporis Christi Sacramentum certatim honorandum De consecra dist 2. c. nos autem the most healthsom Sacrament of the body of Christ to be honoured importunatly 126. But GeÌ„tlemen why deale you so vntrulie with Gods heritage in a matter of this importance did Ambrose euer write vpon this place I tell you no Rider Ambrose in deed writ vpon the Psalmes till the end of the seuentie one Psal and there brake off and recontinued at the 118. Psal but neuer writ of the 98. or 99. Psal as you vntrulie deliuer For Chemnitius saieth thus Ita Ambrosius in eundem Psalmi versum inquit Thus speaketh Ambrose vpon the same fifth verse of the Psalme adorate scabellum Tomo 2. lib. de spiritusancto cap. 12. page 157. worship yee his footestole but he saith not that Ambrose writ vpon that Psalme but vpon a verse of the Pfalme and not in that Tome but in another and yet not of a worship externall as you teach but of a spirituall worship such as Christ teacheth in the fourth of Iohn For if you had read Ambrose you should haue heard him speak thus Hoc in loco de spirituali Christi adoratione c. In this place we will speake onlie of the spirituall worship of Christ So Ambrose vtterlie if you had vnderstood him rightlie condemneth your externall worship of Christ But because August writing vpon this Psal expoundeth Ambrose his opinion vpon that one verse adorate scabellum worship yee his footstoole c. and both against your externall worship I will only desire you to read your own Augustine or your owne print both thoroughlie and deliberatelie and then I doubt not but you will see your errour and reforme your â—udgement Of Kemnitius his citation out of S. Ambrose and Eusebius Emissenus Fitzsimon 126. HERE is good stuff Sainct Ambrose did not wryte vpon the 98. Psalme because he did wryte but vpon a part therof Yf therfor one buffeted M. Rider vpon the eare he could not be sayd to haue strucken M. Rider because he struck but parte of him The 176. 177. 178. vntruth The 176. 177. and 178. vntruethes are First that we deale vntruely with Ambrose we only telling him that Kemnitius so alleaged him Secondly that Ambrose is ill alleaged to proue Christ should be externaly adored for he sayth expressly Caro Christi quam hodie quoque in mysterijs adoramus the fleashe of Christ which this day we adore in the mysteryes and that was the same quam Apostoli in Domino Iesu adoranerunt whiche the Apostles in our Lord Iesu adored Agayne Qui dignè hoc mysterium accipit iudicare debet quod ipse est Dominus cuius sanguinem mysterio bibit he who receaueth worthely this mysterie which I haue added out of S. Ambrose to depriue M. Rider of all cauillation about the woord Mysterie ought to iudge that he is our very Lord whose blood in the mysterie he drinketh Also he falsely informeth that S. Ambrose in that place professeth to speake only of the spiritual worshipp of Christ And yf he had so spoken it had bene for our purpose that the adoration of Christ in such mysterie which is eaten and dronken is not only external but also spiritual For toward such mysterie as appeereth he alloweth such external adoration And for auoyding of other small vntruethes M. Rider might
chosen who directeth thy aduersaries to fynde thee condemned and maketh thy condemnation for impugning their doctrin to be to them a hurtfull satisfaction Rider Berengarius 144. Lastlie you bring in poore Berengarius vppon the stage to beare his faggot and recant his error of the spirituall presence of Christ in the Sacrament which we haue sufficiently proued before to be by scriptures fathers and Popes the true presence And now you bring in siliee Berengarius his recantation too bee our confutation I pray you let me aske you but one question can a reason drawne from a perticular conclude generallie If it should I would reason thus with you Bonner Standish wih others preached stoutlie against the Popes supremacie in king Edward his daies therefore the Popes Supremacie is nor lawfull Would you admit this kinde of reasoning These Iurers be too young to gâ—ue euidence and too partial to be trusted with the triall of this Issue I thinke no no more doe we the other For shall one mans weaknesse inconstancie and fall from the trueth conclude generallie against the trueth God forbid But you will obiect and say it is not one man but three seuerall Synods But I pray you remember that subornation of witnesses and paching of Iuries done in Westminister Hall is most seuerelie punished in that most honorable Starrechamber and shall not the Fope and his followers be called to an account one day before the great Iudge Iesus for the suborning of witnesses and packing of corrupt Iuries to deface Christes trueth and to maintaine their owne forgeries The Catholickes demand a proofe out of Scriptures and fathers for the proouing of your Romane opinion touching Christs reall and corporall presence in the Sacrament and you bring in the Popes Stipendarie Chaplens gathered by the Popes suÌ„mons to vphold the Popes rotten declining kingdome and euerie one of them at least 1100. years after Christâ— ascention and one of them within this sixtie yeares to prooue a thing done a thousand years before Now I giue Irelands Catholicks this friendlie caueat not to cleaue to the Popes Romish religion but to Paules Romane religion and not to rest concontented wiâ—h the name of Catholicks vntill they haue the doctrine that is Apostolicall and Catholicke And now to your fift proofe being your last refuge and least helpe Berengarius his recantations and condemnations 144. FOr his first answer Fitzsimon to this recantation of the first late head of his opinion who could neuer fashion any monstruous body therto of adherents he sayth a particular doth not conclud a general Which being true what miserable conclusions hath he made in his whole booke When yf a figure was to be graunted in one woord therby was concluded that all the seÌ„tence was but figuratiue Yf there were lyke forme of speech and sownd of leters in the ould and new testament therby was concluded there was noe more liberalitie or substance in the new then in the ould yf spiritual sense was affirmed in any one sentence of Scriptures or Fathers therby was concluded nothing was literal Yf any one Prelat and any one booke yea the very Antiphonarie was worthy to be reformed the liues of all Catholicks was therby concluded to be lewed and all their doctrin deuilishe Yf any sentence yea impertinently were alleaged out of any Father the towne the prouince the Kingdome that region of the world Europe Africk Asia were inferred to hould the same although nether person nor place nor prouince of such Region as appeareth in our 60. number when Asie is made to hould an opinion without any of all Asie specifyed for being author therof is numbred What say you M. Rider can reasons drawen from a particular conclud generaly you insinuating that according to learning they can not Spitt out man let trueth haue once a cleane seat in your mouth confesse in plaine deed that they can not and consequently confesse that your inferences hitherto haue bene at least friuolous and vnlearned Secondly I reply that this recantation and condemnation of Berengarius was not particular the condemnation being by three whole Concils and the recantation being Calu. in vltima admonit ad Ioachim VVestphalum as Caluin confesseth by the parent of the Sacramentarian opinion in his owne behalfe and of his children in so much as thervpon to the tymes of the Albigenses and Ihon Wickliff few or none could be found taynted with that errour Secondly he accuseth Bonner and Standish to haue dissembled in their beleefe I thinke in my conscience the accusation is vntrue and the rather because ther is nether witnes nor authour besyd his owne crackt credit to auerr it But let vs suppose it to be true all that followeth therby is that they borrowed Puritanical dispeÌ„sations to them selues mentioned in the 99. number to do contrary to their consciences Deale playnly in Gods cause tell the world whether the late thousand subscribing Puritans haue not all of them drawen in their horns and swayed with the tyme. How many tymes did Latymer and Crammer recant vp and downe So then such did Puritanize Thirdly he answereth that subornation of witneses and packing of Iuries done in Westminister Hall is punished in the starr chamber therby implying that the Pops subornation of his stipendarie this is conceaued a good woord that it is so often repeated Chaplins shal be punished for condemnation of Berengarius To which I reply first out of S. Augustin to be an ould wont of Sectarists Quicquid ex eorum codicibus aduersus eos sonuerit S. Aug. 22. contra Faustum immissum esse a falsatoribus ore impudenti sacrilego non dubitant dicere VVhat soeuer against them selues out of their owne books or of their doctours deeds and recantations is alleaged that they doubt not to affirme out of an impudent and sacrilegious mouth that it is foisted in by deprauers I do not therby intimat that M. Rider is such vnlesse he be guiltie Secondly I would be instructed willingly in the cause of his knowledge how all the Bishops of the three concils wherby Berengarius was condemned are found to haue bene the Popes stipendarie chaplins Peter of Nicomedie is made the Popes pensioner as also S. Bernard and all that can be alleaged against Protestants But why 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ipse dixit M. Rider sayth so Therfor it can not be otherwyse Yf you distrust him or his sayings you are inferred to be trayterous superstitious c. Thirdly how fyndeth he among his Spiritual reuelations that the Popes rotten kingdome declineth For as I shewed not long befor it hath to our seeming neuer in three ages formerly bene so farr extended as in this last and more and more foloweth on the same tenor Fourthly in what Chronologie findeth he that euery one of the sayd stipendarie chaplins liued at least 1100. yeares after Christs ascension The concil sub Victore 2. was in the yeare 1055. The Concil sub Nicolao 2.
Altar there appeareth flesh sometimes workt by the nimble conueiance of man sometimes by the working of the diuell so that if there bee anie flesh in the Sacrament of the Altar whether visible or inuisible it is either wrought through the priests legerdemaine or the diuels cunning and craft Now Gentlemen you haue brought your miracles to a faire market I trust after a while the discrèeet Catholicks will nor giue you a halfepennie for a hundred of them Tharasius the President of that ydolatrous Councell demaunded of all the learned in that Synode why their images then did not worke miracles Nycen syn 1. Act. 4. Aunswere was made out of Gods booke that miracula non credentibus data sunt Miracles are onelie giuen to the vnbeleeuers If you bee too busie with your fained miracles we will make a whole superstitious Synode yet to brand your Church and her children in the forehead for vnbeleefe And that reuerend Chrisostome saith per signa cognoscebatur qui essent veri Christiani Chrisost Hom. 45. in Mat. qui falsi Nunc autem signorum operatio omnino leuata est magis autem inuenitur apud eos qui falsi sunt christiani In old time it was knowne by miracles who were the true Christians and who were the false But now the working of miracles is taken away altogither and is rather found amongst those that bee false disguised Christians Note but two things out of Chrysostome First miracles are now quite taken away Next onely they remaine with false Christians in the false Church so if your Church will haue miracles by Chrisostomes censure she is a false Church and all in that Church be false Christians But if your miracles were true as all Gods and Christs miracles are then the change must be as well of the formes as of the substances When Moses rod was turned into a serpent it was a serpent in deed and no likenesse of a rod remaining Exod. 4.3 Iho. 2.9.10 These prooue your miracles to be false And so when Christ turned water into wine there was neither colour nor taste of water remaining and so in all true miracles But you would haue in your Sacrament a change of the substance of bread yet the accidents as whitenesse roundnesse thinnesse taste August de ciuitate Dei lib. 22. cap. 8. line 3. 4. August de Trinitate lib. 3. cap. 10. and relish notwithstanding remaining which is impossible and not onelie contrarie to the word of God but also to the faith of those primitiue fathers· And Augustine vrgeth this matter verie Euangelicallie saying Quisquis adhuc prodigia vt credat inquirit magnum est ipsum prodigium qui mundo credente non credit Whosoeuer hee bee that yet requireth wonders and miracles to bring him to beleeue the truth is himselfe a wonderfull miracle that the world beleeuing yet hee remaineth still in vnbeelefe And Augustine else where telleth you flatlie that in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper there is no miracle read him and follow him And this is not to passe vntoucht that as your miracles are false in themselues so they are inuented and done to a most wicked end which is to confirme your false doctrine of reall presence Purgatorie praying to Images and the like trash which are cleane contrarie to Christs miracles for their end was twofold the first to confirme our faith in Christs diuinitie and the other Ioh. 10.30.31 to assure our soules of saluation through his name These things are written that yee might beleeue that Iesus is that Christ the Sonne of God and that in beleeuing yee might haue life through his name VVhat miracles are reproued by Catholick writers Fitzsimon 146. YF you haue duely considered the style of M. Rider as perhapp you might hardly fynd any more worthy for sowndnes and method to be considered you may fynde among other points that when our decretals seeme to fauoure him then they are ould and euery parcell of them is a Popes Canon and when any late Doctours are by him alleaged against vs of our owne profession then they are ancient and contrariwyse when any who liued long before such are produced by vs they are tearmed late One only breefe example is to be at this present specifyed When Lyra who liued anno 1320. is thought to deny the 6. Chapter of S. Ihon then is it sayd Ould Lira sayth that the 6. of Ihon c. treateth not of the Sacrament Contrariwyse when we had brought three whole Concils condemning Berengarius they are excepted against as being late although according his owne computation they had bene three hondred yeares elder then Lira He hath the best gift in that to make ould yong affirmations negations disproofs approbations truethes falsifications decrees denials and to affirme all to be for his purpose how assuredly soeuer he is oppressed therby lyke Tarleton who affirmed that his mistres casting a chopping knyfe at his head for some proffred sawcines had done it for a fauour that lightly may be found among any wryters of this tyme. Now then for his first allegation and all his inferences thervpon although it is not to be graunted that Magitians or Sectarists can woorke true miracles yf in a liberal disposition I accord vnto them what is he the better Let the fayth of ould Rome the phrase is so pleasant as it is reiterated condemne miracles done out of the vnitie of the Churche doth not the fayth of late Rome as ernestly condemne them also Doth not S. Paul condemne the miracles of transferring mountayns c. yf one be not in the vnitie of Charitie 1. Cor. 13 What needed then so friuolous a laboure to so small a benefit in seeking out impertinent sentences in defect of direct resolutions of which no sillable belongeth to mend the bringers cause or to marr it of their impugners Thus much at least we gratefully receaue from our owne S. Augustin who was noe Pope but of M. Riders making not against our miracles but against them that are not in the vnitie of the Churche Such as Puritans are not only in respect of the vniuersal Church but also in respect of their owne first protestant synagogue So farr is it that S. Augustins words are against vs that they alwayes styng and destroy them principaly that distort them against vs. And when you affirme these woords thus much from your owne Pope from the ould Churche of Rome how aduised are you to denye that the Pope of the ould Churche of Rome is not our owne Pope I pray you to soder these two together your owne Pope not your owne Pope Concerning the allegation out of Lira I am perswaded as much as Lira that both abuses may happen and are to be punished where and when they happen What difficultie then is contayned in his allegation against vs Nether is it other then a Riderian sequel ther is an ill abuse by miracles therfor no good vse Ther is deceit committed in
some fellow passenger to giue him some part of the mystical bread wheras S. Ambrose sayth that it was a demand made to them quos initiatos esse cognouerat whom he had knowen in holy ordres to giue him diuinum illud fidelium Sacramentum that diuine Sacrament of the faythfull note M. Riders fidelitie which translated these woords to signifie only some part of the mystical bread not that he might curiously behowld or view in which woords S. Ambrose alludeth to the presumption of the Bethsamits of whom God distroyed 5070. for looking into his arck which is an assurance that he would not haue his mysteries vulgarly knowen to the people the hidden secrecies 1. Reg. 6.19 but that he might obtayne the help of his beleefe For he caused it to be tyed vp and bownd it about his neck and so did cast him selfe into the sea not seeking a planke of the dissolued shipp by which he might be holpen because he coueted the sauegard of only faythe Nether did his confidence fayle him nor his opinion deceaue him To conclude preserued from the waues and brought to lande c. In this discourse so distinctly and religiously penned by S. Ambrose M. Rider sayth there is no miracle contayned Yf you couet to know the cause of such his knowledge he will tell you because it was only a note of a good swimmer O subtil conceit But his text controwleth his glosse by insinuating that he was in portum euectus borne into the hauen and that first not mentioning that he did or could swimme His second proofe is that S. Ambrose or his brother did not conceaue diuinum illud fidelium Sacramentum that diuine Sacrament of the faythfull to be Christ What is his reason Because forsooth it is called fidei auxilium a help of fayth and not the authour and finisher of fayth O gentle and wyse exception S. Ambrose sayth that his brother coueted the diuine Sacrament of the faythfull Vt fidei suae consequeretur auxilium That he might obtayne a help to his fayth and M. Rider assureth when he had vndertaken to alleadge S. Ambrose his owne woords that he calleth it but a help of his fayth leauing out S. Ambrose his owne woords diuinum illud fidelium Sacramentum that diuine Sacrament of the faythfull Marke it well good Sir First that S. Ambrose calleth his brothers deliuerer the diuine Sacrament of the faythfull truely and realy tyed about his brothers neck and not only in his fayth Secondly that had he called it so as M. Rider wresteth what sequel could be more Riderian or ridiculous then that Christ might not be the autheur of our fayth because he is the help of our fayth Next he sayth Ambrose calleth it after according to trueth it should be sayd befor the diuine Sacrament of the faythfull therfor he thought not as we doe that Christ was localy in the Sacrament Was there euer such a therfor But none may gather fyggs of brambles nor other arguments from Puritan capacities The answer therto shal be only to direct the reader to the 112. number where we haue shewed S. Ambrose perspicuously testifying his opinion that Christ is localy in the B. Sacrament and that therfor it is the diuine Sacrament of the faythfull because it contayneth his diuine body A third argument is that in the former narration there was no miracle because others were saued as well as S. Ambrose his brother Good still I answer first it was more miraculous in Satyrus the brother of S. Ambrose because it is recorded that he had saued him self and others and not others him Secondly that others might be more skillfull then he in swimming and therfor that his deliuerie might haue bene more miraculous then theirs Minut. Foelix in Octau A fourth blasphemous argument is that the B. Sacrament he calleth it as the Pagan in Minutius Foelix n. 147. toward the ende a wafre cake consecrated by a Preest could not saue any from drowning because it can not saue any from being dronke For answer I only reuoke to memorie the blasphemous saying of the Iewes against Christ he could saue others but him self he can not saue So M. Rider fayth Iewishly Mat. 27.42 that because he doth not saue some from being dronke therfor he could not saue others from being drowned Were it not as lawfull to say Christ saued not him self therfor he could not saue others Fye on these Pagan phrases and Iewish blasphemies 152. So simple people foolishlie cary about them hollie Bread Crosses Crucifixses Rider agnus Deis and such trash VVhether Crosses holy Bread or agnus Deis be allowable 152. YF M. Rider doth not continualy tender occasions to confound his cause Fitzsimon let this point among the rest beare witnes In his margent this he wryteth So simple people foolishly cary about them holy bread Crosses Crucifixes agnus Deis and such trashe Yf his owne argument were good that mispelling doth demonstrat ignorance of the thing it selfe it is cleere that he mispelling holy bread and agnus Deis knoweth not what he is writing against First concerning Crosses notwithstanding that England in all standards flaggs and targetts honoureth them that Elizabeth late Queene retayned them in hir Chapels that M. Rider him selfe amply assured them to be traytours no lesse who abuse the picture robe stamp or standard such as the Crosse is of Christ then they who assault the very person of the Prince yet here he sayth it is simple foolishnes to beare any regard to crosses or such trash Let all the state of England and Irland take patiently that they are by these woords declared to be simple people and to do foolishly for carying about them their crossed banners Let them make new puritan deans and exalt that censorial sect and after stand assured to haue all wyse obseruations begged to Bedlem for follie and nothing to be purely wyse but out of the puritan stampe and of the precise fashion I also aduertised it to be a part of his rethorick when he would perswade any autheurs to defend his cause to honour them with some glorious title some tyme without all reason as to call late Lira by the name of an ould Father c. Some tyme deseruedly but nothing pertinently to his behoofe as when he would proue Preests marriages to call S. Chrysostom that golden mowthed Father and els where that Reuerend Chrysostom Omitting all ample treatise in defense of the crosse which is affoorded by the woorthie Gretser in his volume de Sancta Cruce I will breefly alleadge this gowlden mowthed Father this Reuerend Chrysostoms woords Ipsum lignum in quo positum Sanctum Corpus Domini Crucifixum S. Chrysost orat quod Christus sit Deus quare nam habere totus mundus ità contendit vt qui paruum quid ex illo habent hoc auro includant tam viri quam mulires ceruicibus suis aptent hinc valde honestati magnifici muniti
on horsback haue nodded This to be breefe is the relation of Crantzius Crantzius lib. 1. cap. 9. VVhat therfore sayd the King he treateth of Charlemains speeche to Wedekind Duke of Saxonie hast thou seene which deliteth thee to haue viewed He as he was yet ignorant of Christian things replyed I haue sene wherat I meruailed thee before two dayes of a heauie countenance being vncertaine what had hapened that might molest so great a King It was the remembrance of our Lords Passion that made the King of a sadd countenance Againe sayth he I haue seene thee this Easter Day first sadd and most pensiue about thy imployment in preparing him selfe to the B. Sacrament But when thou didst approache to the midle table of the Church thou didst appeare to me of so ioyefull countenance that I was amazed at the miracle of such suddain alteration For it was wounderfull to behowld that in the hand of a preest in riche ornaments euerie one receaued into their mowthe a bewtifull litle childe VVhom I perceaued to approache to some ioyfully and in hast to others repyning with countenance displeased and yet entring into their mouthes and not returning VVhat this should be I do not yet conceaue Then sayd the King Thou hast well proffited There is some what more shewed to thee then to all the Preests and vs all Then hauing his appareil changed taking him by the hand he taught him the great mysterie of pietie of the Sacrament of the Altar wherby he was conuerted God grawnt all others formerly ignorant of this mysterie to receaue lyke benefit by the same as Wedekind did Let it not seeme strange that Christ should appeare lyke a yong child after his ascention it being no more impossible or inconuenient then that God almightie should appeare lyke an owld man their proprieties of innocencie and aeternitie being cause of such their apparitions Without inuectiues or inforced accusations M. Rider you haue Crantzius testifying amply all that I deliuered succinctly and in a woord For of my disposition I was neuer prolixe in my writings but some tyme in a lyne do include as much mater as my autheur deliuered in a leafe And the rather in my first answer to you I followed breuitie that without toyle yf it could not be without tediousnes you might ouer ronne disproofs of your protestations Now also I will make noe inferrences vpon the premisses against you for my owne behalfe for a playne text needeth no glosse but will abruptly examin the next leauing all Readers behowlding Ciceroes woords in Lucullo to be true in my defense Non quaerere me rationes eas quae ex coniectura pendent queque disputationibus huc illuc trahuntur quae nullam adhibent persuadendi dignitatem That I follow not such reasons as depend vpon coniectures and by skill of disputers are wreasted off and on and contayne noe force of perswasion No I haue another cause then they who haue but exordium commune a common exordium as fitt for the defendant as the plaintife Iren. l. 5. c. 27. Vinc. lir c. 42. Luth. in conuiualibus colloquijs f. 144. Vide n. 19. examinis 75. and no other proofes then peremptorie protestations Sacram Scripturam se solos primum intelligere omnes alios ignorasse that they only first vnderstand the Scriptures and that all others haue bene deceaued And you shall fynde all the principal Protestants abundant in this vayne But I will hould me to my text Catho Priests Optatus lib. 2. contra Donatist Optatus reporteth a grieueous punishment of abusers of a facred Host 156. OPtatus in deed speaketh of two professed Donatists Vrbanus Formensis and Faelix Iducencis Rider who comming into the countrie of Mauritonia and entring the Churches at the time of the celebration of the holie Communion commanded Eucharistiam the Eucharist to be giuen to their doggs but the dogges growing mad presentlie set vpon their owne maisters and rent their flesh with their teeth A iust iudgement of God for their vile attempt of holy misteries But how dare you say that this was your consecrated Host Optatus saith it was Eucharistia the Eucharist that is to say the whole misteries of thanksgiuing and not a part which was cast vnto dogges but Optatus saith not that Christ was locallie inclosed in that bread And you still continue your wonted course that wheresoeuer you finde this word Ecclesiam it is your Church and where you finde this word Eucharistiam that is your consecrated Hoste VVhether Optatus commended or condemned Protestantrie Fitzsimon 156. YOu haue confessed sufficiently to ouerthrow you to witt that God had shewed such seueritie for abuse against the Eucharist so holy a mysterie By the name of Eucharist hath bene euer vnderstood our B. Sacrament of the Altar as appeareth in the 103. number out of S. Gregorie Out of him and all others and the inuiolable trueth dare we affirme it was our consecrated host It is testifyed by Optatus that Christ was localie in those mysteries wheras he inferred for proofe therof the punishment which insued We clayme the woord Church to belong to vs both by other assurances and by your hate against it befor demonstrated The breaking downe of Altars the violating of vowed Virgins the prophaning of the holy mysteries the casting out of sanctifyed Oyle all these together recorded by Optatus so ancient a Father do tell that the Donatists were your Predecessours and such as they persecuted to haue bene ours For what had Protestantrie to do with chast professed virgins altars holy oyle c When no wreasting nor wreathing will auayle it is strange you will trouble your selfe in vayne When I heare you in manifould places of your booke vsing the woords of the Donatists related by S. Augustin ad Donatist post collationem cap. 34. cap. 1. Iudicem a nobis fuisse corruptum and els where de gestis cum Emerito nos cognitoris emisse sententiam eos potius potestate quam veritate fuisse oppressos when as I sayd I heare you and Donatists concurr in these words that we had corrupted the Iudge that we had feed our stipendarie chaplins to giue sentence against you that you were suppressed more by authoritie then veritie then can I allow that Donatists and you are of consociation which I could neuer fynde in Optatus by any signe figure or shaddow extant in his wrytings 157. But a lasse you deceaue the Catholickes Rider for you haue neither the true Church because yee lacke the sincere preaching of Gods word and the lawfull vse of his two sacraments which be the two vnfallible markes of Christs Church nor yet haue you Christs sacraments as hee left to his Church but as they are disguised and prophaned by the late Church of Rome which doth as far differ from the primitiue practise of the auncient Church of Rome as Christs institution differs from mans inuention VVhether the Puritan Church hath the
cap. 19. v. 13.14.15.16 the very selfe same had your two pillers Luther and Caluin in their intended miracles I therfore conclude with you in your owne woords at which for their importance you say in the margent lyke a fawkener Marke Vnlesse you can do these miracles the Catholicks must accompt you no better then iuglers c. Catho Priests I trust this will suffice for auerring the consent of the Catholickes with the Fathers of the primitiue Church which is the first Article we were prouoked to prooue Rider 190. I Know you are vtterlie deceiued and I trust this wil suffice the godlie learned and in different Reader that you and your late Romish Catholicks quite dissent from Christs truth and old Romes religion and therfore remember from whence yee are fallen and returne to the auncient truth while God giues you time which God graunt c. FINIS How suteable the last woords of M. Rider are to them of ancient Hereticks 160. FIrst you affirme that we are vtterly deceaued Fitzsimon As hetherto we haue through the whole writings of vs both discouered that we were neuer stronger then when you assured we were weake neuer truer then when you protested we were false neuer more approued then when you sayd we were most disproued neuer more secure then when you informed we were in greatest danger so now we may be certainly perswaded that we are in the right the rather for your proof-lesse saying that we are vtterly deceaued Yf you had not bene such as M. Sabinus Chambers testifyeth before and after you would neuer haue brought your Oxford conclusion ergo falleris therfore you are deceaued without some premisses or proofs Euery woman or child might say as much when they had no thing els to aunswer But I leaue your iudicial style to euery ones consideration and compassion To your conclusion I will confront lyke woords of owld damned hereticks Come o yee fooles sayd they and miserable men Vincent Lir. in libello con prophan heres who are commonly called Catholicks learne the true fayth which hath bene hidd many ages heretofore but is now reuealed and shewed of late c. What had we bene yf we had consented to them what proofe or vertue is more in your woords then in theirs Therfor because we yeelding to them should haue bene hereticks and haue but allurements from you no better then theirs also because many seducers are gone abroad we will refrayne you both alyke and remayne vpon the Rock to witt sayth S. Augustin the Romain Church S. Aug. de vtilitate credendi cap. 17. against which the prowd gates of hell shall neuer preuayle Conclusion WHen Luther did behould his wrytings to haue conueyed him into a laberinth of perplexities some tyme by their being censured by all Christendome for heretical and therby burned and he made odious sometyme by binding him selfe to manifould denials and affirmations which in processe of tyme he perceaued to be erroneous then in shamefull greefe he burst into these woords Libenter vidissem omnia mea scripta interijsse Luth. in presat Germ. sup r Tomos suos c. inter alias causas vna est quod exemplum me terret Quoniam non video quid vtilitatis Ecclesia coeperit cum extra super Biblia sacra plurimi libri colligebantur I willingly would see all my writings perishe and among other causes one is because the example of all my brethren whose writings benifit nothing doth terrifie me For I do not behould what proffit the Church hath receaued when out and beyond the holy Bible very many bookes were collected Which his saying together with what followeth doth manifest that Sathan and pryde transferred him captiue to his destruction For sayth he tom 2. Ien. fol. 273. Nunquam maiores grauioresque tentationes habui quam ex meis concionibus Cogitabam enim ista tu solus incepisti Ista tentatione sâ—pe ad insernum vsque demersus sum I neuer had greater and more greuous tentations then by means of my sermons For I thought thou only hast begon all this By this tentation I haue bene often swallowed into hell O heauie and dismal remorse and torment of conscience the greatest butcher and mangler of a guiltie mynde how wast thou not able to reclaime that hart which thou wast able so to deuoure Other greuous lamentations before his death for his vnhappie wrytings are testifyed in the examination of the Creed num 7. The lyke remorse had Beza when he sayd Vellem omnia scripta euulgata abolita esse quae paci concordiae obstare Beza in colloq Monpelgart pag. 260. aut veritatem obscurare videntur I would all wrytings published which seeme to be against peace concord or trueth were abolished Alas Beza so would I from the bottom of my hart that thou hadst thy demand both in such intention and in such execution not as was but as I should haue bene Such to haue bene the mynd of Melancthon is testifyed by Wolfangus Agricola conc de matrimonio when he sayd Nullius se digiti iacturam refugere si istum reuocare laborem posset Sed nunc se nimis profundè causae immersum nullum regressum inuenire He would not refuse the losse of any fingar yf he could reuoke his writings But now being so deeply intangled he found no retraict These lamentable and vnfortunat successes and terrour of damnation in the ende vpon and after their giddie courses when so great pillers of the deformed I would say reformed crue do acknowledge how often thinke you in his mynde doth M. Rider couet that he had neuer putt penne to Paper Oecolampad ad Lantgra Hess anno 1529. Vide Seleccerum parte 1. comment in Psal fol. 215. Oecolampad cryed Vtinam Princeps illustrissime abscissa fuisset mihi haec dextera cum primo inciperem de negotio coenae Dominicae quicquam scribere I would most excellent Prince this right hand of myne were chopped off when first I began to wryte any thing of the treatise of the Lords supper Renew renew the same crye M. Rider who first as is euidently shewed by inconsideration In Aduertisment n. 9. n. 130. insinuated you you your selfe I meane in playne tearmes all the state and Lords of the Concil to be fooles hereticks c. Secondly you directed vs to autheurs most repugnant to your profession testifying it to be against the Catholick Church and assuring Numero 3.4.6.114.143 vs to be therof and by so testifying leauing you forlorne and abandoned of all excuse or shadow of your apostasie and impietie in being against our beleefe 3. You haue by necessarie inferrence implyed your owne profession to be wicked and damnable late base and counterfet Num. 16.25.34 4. You haue betrayed your profession Num. 30.31 by the testimonie of all the cheefe of the same to a iurie condemning you and them 5. You haue violated corrupted depraued
thinketh to deale with me as he doth with others that I will take any thing of his bare word no so I might be deceiued as well as they are now but if it will abide the touch of Gods blessed word and the primitiue practise of Christes Church I will allow it as pure golde otherwise I esteeme it if it be like his former as dung in the streets or dust vnder my feete For I assure you Gentlemen if you will but read ouer his first labours consideratly or second scroule and trace his Texts with Gods trueth and euerie authotitie with the original Authour you shall finde them like the sands of Tagus in Spaine a shew without substance as that is a grauel like gould But he would print alone because his booke would passe for currant and Catholicke through the hands of the ignorant and simple who are coniured not to read mine least his errours by them being discouered they might be conuerted to Gods trueth and his reputation weakned and thus preferreth earthly policie before heauenly pietie But let him subscribe to this scroule as I haue beene long since so I am still readie to ioyne with him in the Presse But let me intreat you that you would in a brotherly manner for he is carelesse of my counsell admonish him to reuiew his labours indeed yet fitter for the Pedler then the Printer first for his alteration of the state of euery question secondly for misalleadging curtalling and falsifying Scriptures Fathers and late writers often vntruly seldome pertynently writing euery thing like a VVith according to his owne wit to serue his gracelesse turne though it be against the knowne trueth I will but giue you a taste of one or two and leaue the rest to bee deliuered by him or discouered by me 6. Title Of other vntruthes and false Vavvnts of M. Rider 6. HAuing canuased sufficiently the breach of my promises Fitzsimon of putting my hand to first I know not what for I was euer knowen free to trust as much yf not more then I ought that vnles I had apparent cause to feare deprauation I would not subtract my subscription to any thing of myne next I thinke he meaneth of the legible copie he concludeth it argueth weakenes of my cause a shame of my slubbering and insufficient handling of the same a blemish of my preisthoode and profession I aunswer nothing to all this but that yf he would haue permitted me to print my booke it would be legible it would neede noe subscription of my hand it would testifie that I was not ashamed of my cause and preisthood He must rather be most ashamed and terrifyed most who durst least haue his cause made openly knowen He sayth next that in my last leter I contayned that vnles I might print alone he should haue noe copie Also that so to doe was neuer spoken of first nether is fitt to be yealded vnto by me at last To these two assertions the woords partly of my epistle partly of his owne shal be opposed that his synceritie therby be detected In his leter as I take it to me 27. of decemb 1603. thus he wryteth Your next exception is vnles you may print yours you meane noe publication M. Fitzsimon this wil be graunted I dowbt not prouided euer I may print myne with you in the same volume sheete forme and page euery one of vs correcting his owne copie and bearing his owne charges sutable to the sheetes pages and lynes But yf you desyer to print your owne without myne which thing the world knoweth I did not your request is vnreasonable smelling of faintnes and tergiuersation You behowld his woords to me not that I did intend to print alone but that yf I did so intend it were vnreasonable c. To which conditional suspicion in this his Rescript by a Riderian honestie made an absolute accusation thus I presently aunswered your dowbt to be at charges with printing my labours or that yours shall not be inserted with myne or that we should seeme to thinke that you haue not of your selfe confuted your and your bethrens cause I say such your dowbt you may at will depose as wanting all desert and occasion I tell him as you behowld that I intended to conioyne and insert his writings with myne he publisheth that I wrote to him that vnles I may print alone he should haue noe copie Pardon him for this it is but his ordinarie condition to mistake or at least misreport absolute for conditional graunts for denials affirmatioÌ„s for negatioÌ„s one mater for another To the next that it was neuer spoken of at first that we showld haue the free vse of the print nether is fitting to be yeelded vnto at last by him First I oppose his owne woords in his printed epistle of his Caueat You shall haue my good leaue and loue and my best furtherance to the state that after you haue replyed to this it may be printed as also your persons for further conference protected Here you haue the talker of promises yf he were the fullfiller many would be gladd in print promises the print to our replie without conditions of legible copies without the before neuer heard of maner of printing aboue expressed without any vnreasonablnes pretended in the performance and now you behould him confidently denying such promise ether to haue bene euer made or to be reasonable Both are in print his saying and his denying and being opposit at least the one of them must be vntrue Ezech. â—3 14 I say with the prophet I will destroye the wall which you haue â—abed without morter and will make it euen with the earth and the foundation therof shal be reuealed and it shall fall For when the mortar of trueth wanteth in any relation how be it that the height therof be neuer so great yet it will shortly fall and the false foundation therof be publickly reuealed Thus much in this point for his contradicting himselfe Now for his false vawnts My aunswer to his challenge he sayth was so sifted that nothing was left but dust and yf this be well boulted he dowbteth not but he will proue it branne First I aunswer to the phrase that it is in part borrowed in part natural It is borrowed from that arch Puritan Martin Mar-Prelat saying of him and his brethren that they haue left nothing to the protestants but dust and branne hauing taken all the fyne flower away It is natural Martin Mar-Prelat both from his Father being a Miller and from him selfe being a baker A speach in season tractat fabrilia faber it is pitie that he hath changed whyte for black A second Melancthon to haue forsaken his booke to be a baker Vide Cochleâ— Sur. Colloq Altâ—mburg fol. 360. but one that for hauing so many barrels of corne without all function as him selfe sayth more then hath euery beleeuing Christian without any charges should be commanded to sell duble size to that
vnuulgar and vnknowen of that people wherin they were practised Haue you euer heard the like I shewed sayth he that they were vnuulgar and yet I am willed to proue that they were vnknowen of the common people Who are the vulgar sorte but the common people Must not then it that is vnuulgar be vnknowen to the common people He that teacheth a foole is as one that glueth a poâ—-shard he may wel propownd learning to his braynes but neuer glue them and it to hould together Eccli 22.7 Beda l. 1. c. 1. The woords of Beda are This Iland at this present to the numbre of the 5. bookes of Moses with fiue sondrie languages doth studie and sett foorth the knowledge of one perfect trueth that is with the language of the English the Britons the Scots the Picts and the Latin which by studie of the scriptures 〈◊〉 made common to all the rest Yf of these woords sayth M. Rider with all my Iesuitical and transmarin logick I can make one sownd sillogisme to proue scriptures to haue bene in an vnuulgar tongue I shal be to him Magnus Apollo a great Prophet You behould what a high preferment is offered to me for so small paynes in the thing it selfe although to the partie it may be a hard taske by reason that homo assuetus in verbis improperij Eccli 23.20 in omnibus diebus suis non erudientur the man accustomed in woords of reproach in all his dayes will not be instructed Neuer the lesse yf I can by a vulgar similitude I will accommodat this easie mater to his capacitie Ther is noe doubt but yf fower diuers families by right did draw water out of one common welle you might well say the water of those fower families not to be in the priuat possession of any one of them So Beda saying that the latin tong became common to fower diuers nations by their meditation of scriptures doth not he intend that the meditation of scriptures was not in the priuat language of any one of them An enthimene is lesse then a sillogisme and yet this hard ridle is dispatched in lesse then ane enthimene and consequently I must be more then a great Apollo to M. Rider I had rather by much to inioye my ould priuiledge during his preiudicated conceit that he esteeme me an Apostat rather then an Apollo a proselit then a prophet a dowlt then a Doctor For quod ille maledictum vehemens existimat laudem ego duco maximam His greatest disprayse is my desyred disblame Only I would know how que lingua in the singular numbre became in his translation whose tongs in the plural numbre and whether it befitteth the sence of Beda his sentence or noe Rider 9. Our third question was that Purgatorie and Praier for the dead were not knowne to Christes Church To this hee saith That Purgatorie and Praiers for the dead were beleeued but saith not within the first fiue hundred yeares generally of the Church and therefore saith nothing to the matter in question to prooue this matter amoÌ„g other writers he brings in that learned man of God Maister Caluin thus falsely alleadgeth him in these woords Institu lib. 3. Cap. 5. n. 10. Yea and Caluine confesseth that aboue 1300. yeares past it vvas a receiued practise to pray for the dead but let vs heare how truly nay vntruly and vnchristianly he deales with the dead Fathers and late VVriters Page 245. for Caluines words bee these recorded to Maister Fitzsymons great disgrace for falsifying them and abusing the simple Quum ergo mihi obijciunt aduersarij ante mille trecentos annos vsu receptum fuisse vt precationes fierent pro defunctis eos vicissim interrogo quo dei verbo quo reuelatione quo exemplo factum sit neque enim hic testimonia desunt tantum sed quâ—cunque illic leguntur sanctorum exempla nihil tale ostendunt Therefore when our aduersaries obiect vnto mee that 1300 yeares agoe it was a receiued opinion that praiers should be made for the dead I doe aske them againe by what scripture what reuelation or example they doe it for here wants not onely testimonies of Scriptures but what examples of holy men soeuer they alleadge they shew me no such thing Must not all men condemne Maister Fitzsimon Vâ—icked is that opinion that by falsifications must be maintained Acts. 136. thus falsely to alleadge any Authour to maintaine his owne heresie God helpe the poore ignorant subiects of this miserable land that are compelled to beleeue this Iesuite nay Iebesite yea a second Bar Iesus that seekes by these wicked meanes to turne the Lords flocke from the Lords fould But he that is brought vp in any of the brasen faced Colledges of Iesuites and so sworne to the supremacie of the Pope may boldlye falsifie and misconster Gods word or mens writtings because easily for his seruice done for the Pope he may haue pardon from the Pope Tam a pana quam à culpa but I beseech you wish him if there bee any sparke of grace in him cease to delude Gods people and the Kings good Subiectes with these falsifications and at last forsake this bad course of spirituall consinage or else Gods spirit good men will forsake him And let him take Christs counsaile Sinne no more least a vvorse thing come vnto him Ioh. 5.14 9. Title VVhether Caluins confession that the Ancients a thovvsand three hondred yeares past commended prayer for the dead be a falsification 9. SO M. Rider Inde grauis iudex inde seuerus Eques Fitzsimon both as a dreadful iudge and a as worthie squyre in al vehemence assureth such confession of the man of God to be vntruely vnchristianly falsely alleadged a recorde of my disgrace wicked meanes to turne Christs flock from Christs fowld yf any sparke of grace be in me I should cease to delude Gods people and the Kings good subiects with these falsifications with this bad course of spiritual cosonage c. But yf Caluin be a man of God or noe he as well requyteth M. Rider for this vndeserued defense as M. Rider requyted the Collegists for their perfidiouse protection of him selfe each of them controwling the wrongfull excusations sought by their owne brethren to cloake their deformitie First then Caluin hauing the woord Ante testifying the tyme of prayer for the dead to be aboue thirten hondred yeares past M. Rider ouer-gamboled it Secondly Caluin professing it to be the doctrin of the Fathers and therof alleadging the example of S. Augustin and S. Monica and only denying it to be in the scriptures which he specifyeth by the woord Illic nimbly also M. Rider ouers-kipped to translate this woorde Thirdly M. Rider reporting Caluins opinion to be that what examples of holy men soeuer we alleadge they shew noe such thing Caluin the man forsooth of God confesseth the exaÌ„ples of holy men to be for the prayer of the deade but
commendations by them vawnted Their confessor according to his dutie instructed them of the heynousnes of those crymes so effectualy that they being sorrowfull for their former lyfe they promised to abstayne heedfully for the future tyme from all disordre and particularly that they would nether lye nor forsweare in bying and selling In the beginning they fownd them selues somewhat interested therby vntill God had fully proued the firmenes of their resolution But after in small processe of tyme their trade customers and welth increased so exceedingly that they came to incomparable wealth So yf our Reformers could refrayne from the same offenses in vtterance of their marchandise in wryting and deale playnly without inhawncing glozing or returning their wares without detracting and belying the prouision sufficience and substance of their neighbours store or beguiling thus their customers I assure you thowsands more would peruse their stuffe and their traffique would be much amended 11. The fift position was this Rider That the Masse which now the Church of Rome doeth vse was not then known in the Church Maister Fitzsymon knowing or else he is ignorant in Durandus Durantus Guido and the rest of the Masse founders that it is impossible to prooue the Masse to be either Apostolicall or Catholicke that in the first fiue hundred yeares it was not hatched vnder the warmth of the Popes wings for then he was scarce Bishop of Rome but that is was to his owne knowledge patched vp in many hundred yeares after those 500 by sundrie Popes and therefore Maister Fitzsymon very wisely passeth the matter ouer without one text of Scripture to prooue it for knowing in his conscience that the Masse neuer came within the letter of Christs will he will not affoord it the least warrant forth of Gods word And for the Fathers that he alleadgeth I am sorrie that a man that hath so fluent a tongue should haue so bad a minde to wrest the Fathers so speake that after their death which they neuer knew in all their life 11. Title VVhether the Masse novv vsed in the Church of Rome vvas knovven to the ancient Church M. Rider denyeth it to haue bene knowen Fitzimon befor Innoncent the thirds tyme. But in the two bookes precedent euen the innocents may iudge whether such be not for the follie therof an InnoceÌ„ts opinion and for the impudencie therof a sycophants protestation When that M. Rider had threatned befor as often appeareth so wonderfully the Masse that he would shew from first to all to be magick when he had promised to trauers it at the first occasion In 〈◊〉 caueat n. â—8 when he had taken vpon him as a litle after followeth that he had followed me closely in euery lyne woord sillable and leter then not only not to accomplish his threat not to imbrace this opportunite now offered not to produce one woord of all my proofes and to deny that I had alleadged any out of Scripture I know not what it is yf it be not to Ryde as fast as his titt can gallopp And that he may not ryde alone Luther hath sent this sentence as a foote boy to compagnie him Qui semel mentitur hic certissime ex Deo non est suspectus in omnibus habetur Luth. in Asser Teu ho. art 25. He that once lyeth he is not most certainly of God and in all things is to be to suspected As I sayd my treatise of the Masse will further totaly and seueraly for what parte soeuer therof you peruse it alone will discouer the forsayd ryding demonstrat not only M. Rider to be vntrue but that magna est vis veritatis quae contra omnium ingenia calliditatem solâ—rtiam contra fictas hominum insidias facile se per scipsam defendet Seneca in epist great is the power of trueth which by it selfe defendeth it selfe agaynst all witts craft industrie and treacherous ambushes of men Yf denials were disproofs yf the dissembling our arguments were the dissoluing of them yf hypocritical protestations be allowed for lawfull pleadings then our cause and case will loose their processe But yf trueth may haue due regarde and proofs their deserued credit and right but a lawfull iudgemeÌ„t then falshod as a disguised queene vpon a stage the Pagent being ended wil be discouered to haue bene but a cowntrefett then dissimulation wil be vnmasked then woords wil be valued according the lightnes of their weight As I sayd my â—wo bookes of the Masse compiled vpon the occasion of such denials dissembling and delusions are committed to the regard of their trueth the credit of their proofe and the iudgement of their equitie Let them be accepted but according to desert and they and I will câ—aue noe more nor others perhapp requyre greater satisfaction Rider 12. The last question was Of the Popes supremacie and whether the Pope of Rome hath vniuersall iurisdiction ouer all Princes and their Subiects in causes temporall and Ecclesiasticall VVith this Maister Fitzsimon dealeth as with all the rest and for the first part he saith that the Popes supremacie was acknowledged but tels you not within the first fiue hundred yeares and therefore is able to say nothing to that first part in question But impertinently misalleadgeth some Texts of Scripture spoken either touching Peters faith which he should hold not one word of his supremacie which hee neuer had And there hee would cunningly subborne the Fathers to prooue Peters pretended supremacie and the Popes vsurped supremacie but all in vaine for he takes them by the sound not by the sense as shall appeare Christ willing in sifting them if he dare shew them And for the second part of the position hee falls quite from the proofe of the Popes Iurisdiction to the largenesse of his possessioÌ„s which was neuer in questâ—on as Sicilia Sardinia c. here you see his weaknesse that cannot draw out of the Lords quiuer one shaft in defence of the Popes Supremacie 12. Title VVhether my proofs of the Popes supremacie speake of the first fiue hondred yeares 12. YOu haue sondrie euidences that M. Fitzimon Rider is nether lawfull Iudge nor witnes In this article it appeareth particulary in his denying it that Scriptures Fathers Protestants especialy the Centuriasts in great prolixitie do professe Yf there had bene no other proofs theÌ„ is in my first title to this Rescript what thinke you are not they alone a stumbling block to humble our Rider into the synke of confusion I will but quote the Centuriasts shewing from age to age the Popes of Rome to haue had and practised supremacie of the whole world Cent. 2. c. 7. col 139. col 770. 778. 779. 781. 782. c. 10. col 1262. and add to the forsayd proofs in my title a few more that euen those who are loath to conceaue M. Rider to be what he is conuicted may be as loath to dowbt of the mater that he contradicteth For euen by
conclude in the discourse of B. S. Austin S. Augustin l. 2. 〈◊〉 de ciu c. 1. altogether and as yf it were of sett purpose belonging to this effect Yf the weake sense of human custome dared not to resist the reason of manifest trueth but to holsome doctrin as to a medecin would submitt the weakenes therof vntill by Gods assistance the fayth of pietie intreating it were healed ther should not be requisit any long discourse to conuict the error of vayne opinion by them who are in the right and susficiently can expresse their meaning But now because so much the more the disease of erroneouse mynds is greater and dangerouse by how much they defend their vnreasonable conceits yea after full satisfaction as much as from man to man was due whether foreuer excessiue blindnes wherby they discerne not things apparent or for peruers obstinacie wherby they will not indure things euident to he reason and trueth of necessitie we treat more amply cleere maters as yf we deliuered them not to be viewed of behoulders but in sorte to be felt of handlers and yet winking at them Neuertheles what ende of alteration or meane of speaking would therbe yf we would thinke it requisit alwayes to aunswer them that contradict For they that can not vnderstand what is sayd or are of so hard an opposition of hart that although they vnderstand they will not yeelde such do contradict according as is written and they speake iniquitie continualy they are vayne VVhose cōdradictions yf I would as oft refell as they with a stowt forhead resolue not to care what they say so that howsoeuer they gaynsay our disputations how infinit how miserable and vnproffitable it is you behould Thus I conclude in opinion and speech of S. Austin Laus Deo Opt. M. Virginique Matri ac B. Patrició To the temperat Protestant Reader I Confesse my selfe to haue bene long tyme browght vp in Protestantcie and also to haue waded therim with resolut confidence professing it in Catholick contryes not without as well danger as firme intention to haue dyed for it And when I did abandon it it was not for any greater temporal preferment as is knowen publickly by what I then was and what possibilities I had in respect of what I now ame and do pretend to be The cause of my first conuersion from it was principaly because I obserued the forme of beleefe called the crede and the reformed gospel to be in all articles altogether opposit one to another I report me euen to your arbitrement therin after reading my examination of the Protestant beleefe toward all the articles of the crede whether I had mistaken or noe Next as after I addicted my selfe to the diuers controuersies of both sydes examining them curiously with their allegations I was much more confirmed to be a Catholick by viewing besyd the crede all the whole doctrin of Christianitie from Christs tyme hetherto to be wholy repugnant to reformations Eber in pref com Philippi super ep ad Cor. and when Reformers pretended the contrary that they and the ancients did not disagree in religion such imposture I fownd to be so enormly sycophantical and hypocriticaly pretexed that I blushed to haue euer bene of that profession which cowld neuer purchas or retayne any vertuouse mynde but by such forging and dissembling to be that most which according trueth and playne dealing with all vehemencie it contradicted and was least So is it playnly confessed by Eberus who succeaded Luther and Melancthon in wittemberg Tot tantis confusionibus scandalis deformatur totus caetus vt nihil videatur minus esse quam quod profitetur The whole crue of Reformers is so deformed with so manifowld and great confusions and scandals as that it is nothing lesse then what it professeth Lastly when I came to Gods holy booke the diuine Scriptures and compared them in their originals to the translations of Reformers and these to them I then in dede viewed all to be treason and trapps all to be a transfiguration of the angel of darkenes into ane angel of light or his doctrin of libertie to beare most vndeseruedly the title and countenance of the doctrin of pietie and in the meane tyme true godlines to be as Christ in his passion blasphemed derided spoiled crucified and buried So with me it also rose the third day and appeareth after with hands syde and feete pearced in such palpable maner that of a dowbtfull disciple Ioan. 20.19 by so manifest reuelation I then and now say My lord and my God as he then and now aunswered my sowle Because thow hast seene me thow hast beleeued I haue now informed why my selfe renownced protestantrie Yf you please I will tendre some further important occasions wherby you may also know what to determin toward the same Pondre them in the ballance of a pure eye and not according any preiudicated perswasion and sway with them only according their desert as you tendre your sowls saluation When reformations pretended to exclude papistrie as they tearmed rhe Catholick Profession they alleadged against it that it was forsooth idolatrie superstition magick that it was a following of Antichrist the cupp of the whoore of Babilon a stamp of the beast of the Apocalips that the ancient Fathers weare pernitious dreamers doting fooles idle triflers fanatical wryters falsifyers deprauers blasphemers as is shewed in my first preface Now for their owne authoritie and warrant to abolish papistrie and to establish their reformations they assuredly affirmed the woord of the Lord Gods booke and the holy Scriptures to be their direction the loue of Christ and his truth to be their impulsion the doctrin of the Apostles and their beleefe to be their intended Reformation So that the nick of all their coning consisted in fyne fyled and forged dispraises of Papistrie and as curious sugred deceitfull commendations of Protestantrie approuing them selues as S. Austin sayth dulcissime vanos non peritos sed perituros S. Aug. l. 1. confes c. 14. l. 7. c. 20. nectā disertos in errore quā desertos a veri tate most delyt somely vayne not so much read as reprobat nor eloquent in heresie as emptie of veritie This whole imposture yf it be fownd false must not the frame or building erected theron be also esteemed to incline to destruction Omitting to prosecute Luthers confession Luth. in disp Lipsiaca cum Eccio that this reformation was nether begon for God nor for him should be followed First then I say in general that their bibles by their owne verdict haue not bene the woord of God Nether will I alleadge for proofe therof Zuingl de sacram fol. 412. Sur. in Chron. adan 1523. Lindan dial 1. pag. 84.85.98 c. any Catholicks but them selues In Luthers translations I might affirme that Iohn Dietenbergius had colleted 874 and Emserus 1400 falsifications and that bishop Tonstal had gathered in the only new Testament of Tindal
maiore religione ad periurium quam ad mendacium perduci consueuit He that belyeth his conscience consenteth as lightly to periurie I had rather thinke them greaued by wanting such pretext to impouerish you then more confident of your loialtie after receauing your oath Who then shall separat vs from the charitie of Christ tribulation Rom. 8.35 or distresse or famin or nakednes or danger or persecution or the sword A litle after is a speech rather beseeming a celestial spirit then a mortal weakeling and such as wherby euery mynde of any Christian generositie should learne what to thinke and doe in Christs quarell I am suer that nether death nor lyfe nor angels 38. nor principalities nor powers nether things present nor things to come 39. nether might nor height nor depth nor other creature shal be able to seperat vs from the charite of God which is in Christ Iesus our Lord. These are the thoughts and woords beseeming as I sayd all worthie champions of Christ Which not only by men of strong resolution but also by women and children were most constantly fullfilled when Barbara Agatha Agnes Cecilia Catharina Lucia Dorothea Apollonia Margarita Christina and innumerable other virgins for the most parte of eminent degree and when Vitus and Mammes of seuen and Flocellus of ten yeares owld and such others dispised the terror of rageing lions the stings of serpents and teeth of tigres when they the scorned the stripes of riueted scourges the tearing of burning rakes and hookes when they contemned the burning fornaces the boiling lead the drownings precipitations butcherings quarterings of mans whole malice And should not we then thinke very abiectly of our selues yf in Gods cause any losse of temporal goods any affronts any suspitions any oppressions may moue vs to repine Therfor that which might seeme to you most heynous that being putt to death or torments they do taint you with the odiouse name of treasons and not with the title of martyr S. Ambros in Ps 118. sâ—r 21. that impaireth nothing your merit Gratis igitur persecutionem patitur qui impugnatur sine crimine impugnatur vt noxius cum sit in tali confessione laudabilis impugnatur quasi veneficus qui in nomine Dei gloriatur For in vaine sayth S. Ambros is he persecuted who is impugned without offense is he afflicted as a malefactor wheras he is laudable in that trial is he tormented as an inchanter who glorifieth in the name of God the name not making nor marring the martyr but the cause Yf then you aspire to their crowne who befor are commended to your imitation S. Aug. ser 47. de sanctis I say with S. Augustin Imitari non pigeat quos celebrare delectat let it not greeue yow to imitat whom in mynd you do consecrat Thinke happie to be the effusion of your teares and bloud wheras theternal fiar of hell is therby extinguished and wheras the robes of your sowles are therby blanched According to which is sayd in the Apocalips Apoc. 7.14 These are they that are come owt of great tribulation and haue washed their robes and haue made then whyte in the bloud of the lamb Thinke that in the fornace of aduersitie for godlines yf you were earth you are streinthned yf you were yron you are vnrusted and yf you were gowld yow are purifyed â—say 58.2 Lastly yf you be they of whom the Prophet sayth They day by day do seeke me and they would knowe my wayes as a people that hath done Iustice and hath not forsaken the iudgments of their God thinke whether you do not wrong to God that withowt amendment of your faults you would haue the freedome of innocents Psal 38.12 Hast 14. 6. Are you ignorant that for iniquitie God hath chastised Man and that therfor we are deliuered vp into the hands of our enemies because we haue offended in his sight Tobias then resolueth you Tob. 3. 4. because we haue not obeyed thy preceps therfor we are ahandoned to the spoile to captiuitie to death to a speach and to a reproach in all nations So doth Achior in informing Holofernes As oft as besyd their owne God they worshipped any other God Iudith 5. 18. they haue bene forlorne to a praye to the sword and to reproach So lastly doth Baruch VVhat is it Israel that thow art in the land of thy enemies Baruch 3. 10. 11. 1â— that thow becomest ancient in a strange land that thou art polluted with the dead that thou art reputed with them that discend into hell Thou hast forsaken the fontaine of wysdome For yf thou hadst walked in the way of God thou hadst without dowbt dwelled in peace vpon the land So that yf you would know the wayes of God you must do iustice and not forsake his iudgments Yf you lament to be a spoile c. obey his precepts worshipp God alone and walke in his wayes and as the psalmist sayth apprehend discipline least God be angrie and that you perish from the iust way Psal 2.12 Which because you seeme more willingly to fullfill of late then formerly as appeareth by your godly resolutions mentioned in your leters and by your constant standing for trueth you may I warrant you auayleably exclame in the woords of Dauid Synners haue vnsheathed their swoord they haue bent their bow that they might beguile the poore and needie and vpon Psalm 36.14 these woords receaue from aboue answer the enemies of our lord suddenly as they shal be honored and exalted fading they shall vanish away as smooke that is 20. as another Prophet expowndeth they shal be as yf they were not and the men shall perish that contradict the. Not that it is alwayes inteÌ„ded they should perish in persoÌ„ which we neuer ought absolutly to desyer but only in profession And not only because of your amendment may we presume of such diuine bountie but also least they should sayth God become prowd and say Our high hand and not the lord hath done all these things Deut. 22.27 By which their becoming insolent the spirit of God instructeth is in the person of Dauid to implore of God to auert his wrath and their opposition saying Do not ô lord abandon me from my desier to the synner They haue consulted against me forsake me not least by chance they be exalted Psalm 137.9 Finaly wheras you fynde them selues to professe their shame that they haue departed froÌ„ the mother Church of Rome as they tearme it in thes publick and plaine woords D. Couel in exam p. 185. we are sorie that their weaknes he speaketh against Puritans taketh offense at that which we bowld as an honor and vertue in the Church of England namely that we haue sparingly and as it were vnwillingly dissented from the Church of Rome c. In all ioye of mynde for a soueraigne consolation not with standing all extremities specified you may applaud to your selues that you abstained to depart at all from that Church which as Christ assureth nether in more nor lesse shal be euer ouercome ether by one error or many or by any other power of hell gates or which is all one which neuer is to haue spott or wrinkle how litle soeuer and is in nothing to fayle but to confirme all others it being assured that had you offended in one you had bene made guiltie of all â—ac 2. 10. although such one dissention from that Church had bene neuer so sparingly or vnwillingly followed And vpon this confession I say first to Doctor Couel it is in dede neere to honor and vertue sparingly and vnwillingly to dissent froÌ„ that Church but a true honor and vertue had it bene not to dissent at all And as by dissenting in one point the selfe same guiltines is incurred as by dissenting in all so there remayneth noe other maner to be free from all guiltines but to consent againe with that same Church in all Christ made it not a piller of trueth without being altogether sownd and free from euery crack He made not that Church his spowse withowt exempting it from euery spott and wrinkle He builded not that howse vpon a rock not to be permaneÌ„t in some but in all trials of sease wynds and rayne He assured it not against the infernal gates but that noe error or force or fraud of hell Iac. 2. 10. could preuaile ether first or last against it Therfor a primo ad vltimum he that offeÌ„deth in one toward it is made guiltie of all because it is altogether priuileged from defect Secondly I say to you Puritans Bel. in the dovvnfall of poperie pag. 134. that in the depth of all error and follie you exagitat the rytes and traditions of this Church For wheras you coÌ„fesse as to denie it had bene profouÌ„d impudeÌ„cie that you know not your bible to be the word of God but because you receaue it for such by a tradition of Papists for froÌ„ whom els could you haue receaued it you being as you affirme but in the infancie of your gospell I require thervpon whether you hould such authoritie or certificatioÌ„ in auowing the sayd bible to be infallible or noe What soeuer you answer you remayne ingaged For yf it be infallible in that point such infallibilitie must come from the former promises of Christ which being general do assure infallibilitie in all other points as well as in that And then cursed you for departing from that infallible fundation Yf you affirme that such allowance or traditioÌ„ is fallible then haue you noe infallible certaintie whether your Bible be authentical or noe The Survey vvith 177. queres as inioying it only from authoritie in your opinion but fallible Answer me only this one quere which is your owne new fangled tearme for a demand and I protest befor God and his angels and the world that I will consent with you The God of mercie and trueth be with vs all Amen 26. Sept. 1607. Yours to command in Christ HENRY FITZSIMON
in Christ and his Churchâ— to interpret it is but a great mysterie Or by the 139. vntruth to referr the woords sacra signa holy signes to this our Sacrament which S. Augustine referreth to the former Sacrament of Mariage Or by thâ— 140. The 149. vntruth vntruth to auouch that notwithstanding all these palpable euidences for our syde and against our aduersaries yet that S. Augustine is opposit to vs and we could neuer yf we had bene hyred haue brought a more repugnant testimonie I can not conceaue but euery one Catholick and protestant doth perceaue such aâ— aforsayd to haue bene his intention videlicet to indomage to remayne hidd as long as might be and to that ende to haue debarreâ— me three whole yeares all vse of printing although he had warraâ—â— to the contrarie and in this mercenarie maner of popularitie 〈◊〉 seeke to content for the present tyme. It being more brightly cleere then the sonn at myddaye I proceed full of hast and loathsomnes to wryte against men of such intentions Quorum lingua tam prodiâ—â— infrenisue est Gellius lib. 1. vt fluat semper verborum colluuione taeterrima whos 〈…〉 lauishe and vnbridled that it floweth only with a most odious pudle or streame 〈◊〉 woords Wherin none should contend with them the conquest being against the conquerour and the victorie his that is ouercome I fynd it by experience most assured that Nazianzen related of ould Reformers to be as reall among new Reformers Inter se certant periâ—â—â— atque non id metuant Nazianz. erat 2. de pace ne impijs erroribus sese constringant sed ne in hac re 〈◊〉 tolerabiliusue caeteri peccent Among them the stryfe is not as yf they 〈…〉 erre impiously but that they contend to surpasse on another in this 〈◊〉 This approued saying yf I should as often replye as occasion doth requyre at euery leafe of this booke it might be repeated â—n what darknesse of ignorance in what sluggish carelesnesse haue they been Catho Priests Leo epist 22. ad Clerum plebem Constantino politanae vrbis floruit Anno. 366. Rider This Leo was the 13 Archb. of Rome tweÌ„tie more succeeded him b fore any vsurped the name of Pope Nomb. 23.8 as not to haue heard by hearesay nor by reading to haue found which in the Church of God is so plaine as that the mouthes of children do tell the bodie and bloud of Christ to be trulie in the blessed Sacrament 117. GEntlemen you mistake the Epistle it is in the 23. Epistle pag. 74. beginning in the 12 line printed at Louaine 1575. and seeing it is both your â—wne proofe and your owne print if vpon due examination it make against you you must thinke God dealeth with you as he did with Balaam who when he made accoâ—nt for gaine to haue cursed Gods people then God put into his heart and vttered by â—is mouth a blessing to his people You made account to haue here ouerthrowne the trueth establâ—shed errour and strengthned your credit and God hath put into your heart and you haue subscribed with your hand to confirme the trueth confute your owne error and discredit your selues and more to the worlds wonder and the foile of your Romane faith euen by a bishop of Rome against whom you can take no â—xceptions So that now the Catholicks shall see that your carnall presence was not known to the first bishops of Rome for the first fiue hundred yeares and therefore it â—s not Catholicke And you shall see how vntrulie you not onelie quote him but alleâ—dge him nay wrest inforce him to speake that after his death which he neuer meant â—uring his life So that from the first to the last you deale neither trulie with the booke of God nor the works of men And as Christ saide to the Scribes and Phareses Mathew 15.6 You â—aue made the commaundement of God of no Authoritie by your Tradition So you â—esuits and Priests haue made neither Scripture Auncient father Councell nor Pope of â—nie Authoritie by your new and false constructions addicions and subtractions c. But now to the examination of your proofe But I will first showe to the Catholicks the occasion why Leo writt this and there â—hey shall see how greatly you are deceaued in mistaking Leo and much abuse their simplicitie and the credite they repose in you The occasion whie Leo writte this Epistle was this That whereas the errour of the Manichees had greatlie infected the Church of God throughout all Christendome They denied Christs manhood taught that his bodie was not a true bodie but a phantasticall bodie he â—n a charitable manner sent Epiphanius and Dionisius two publicke Notaries of the Church of Rome to the Cleargie and people of Constantinople requesting them that â—uch as professed these damnable heresies might not onelie bee excommunicated from â—ermons sacraments but also be banished from their Citties for feare of further inâ—ection For saith hee such as beleeue not that Christ hath taken our nature and flesh â—pon him beleeue neither the veritie nor vertue of Christs passion and resurrection And then commeth in your proofe which properlie must be applied to such hereticks 〈◊〉 denie Christ his manhood to bee borne of the blessed virgin and hold that his bodie is not a true bodie but a phantasticall bodie and not to vs that beleeue both Againe you haue not trulie translated this place for thus it stands in the Authour In quibus isti ignorantiae tenebris in quo hactenus desidiae torpore tacuere vt nec auditu discerent and after wards Vt nec ab infantium linguis veritas corporis sanguinis Christi inter communis sacramenta fidei teneatur In what darknes of ignorance in what sluggâ—sh carelessnes haue they remained as not to haue learned by hearesay not heard by hearesay as you translate that the trueth of the bodie and bloud of Christ amoÌ„g the sacrameÌ„ts of our commoÌ„ faith is not kept backe euen of the toÌ„gues of infants It seemeth you had this out of some mans notebooke by hearesay not by your proper and diligent reading of the Authour hmiselfe and my reasons why I thinke so be these because you mistake so much and translate so vntrue Yet will not I take exceptions to euerie particular fault 1 First you say it is in the twentieth Epistle it is not so but in the thâ—â—â— and twentieth and therefore I thinke you neuer read the Author 2 Secondlie you say heard by hearesay the Author saith Learned by hearesay 3 Thirdly you translate linguis for mouths it should be tongues Yet if the reâ—â— had been true I would not haue excepted against this 4 Fourthlie you chaunge a Nowne into an Aduerb vere for veritas trulie for trueth and transpose it also out of that proper place to alter the sence of Leo the Bishop of Rome which is great wrong to the dead Author and liuing Reader 5 Fifâ—he