directly answered by me whither on man or many should be judge of controversies To this he saith I dare not answer because I will not grant the power either to the high Bishop or general council nevertheless he findeth this to have been the constant practise of the Church both in the Old and New Testament established by the express word of God and received by the Fathers in all ages for in the Old Testament from Deut. 17. from 8. to 13. we read that GOD did command the people in matters of controversie to go to the Priests Levits and judge who should be in those days appointed by him for that end saying and thou shalt do according to the sense of the law which they shal teach thee and according to the judgement which they shal tell thee Remark he saith not according to the sense of the law which thou shalt read but which they shal teach thee not taken according to the privat judgement and spirit but according to the judgmeÌ„t which they shal tel thee where God promiseth out of their mouth judicii veritateÌ„ truth and verity in judgement or as you turn it sentence of judgement See for this also 2. Chr. 19. 8. where Jehosophat established what was first instituted Viz. a council of Levits Priests and chief fathers of Israel to judge not only between brethren and brethren blood and blood but also betwixt law and coÌ„mandments statutes and judgements Not leaving law and commandments to the peoples privat reading and interpretation as you do in your rule of faith In the 11. verse he concludeth thus Amaziah is over you in all matters of the Lord where it is evident that the council and chief Priest is established judge of controversie and not the written Word as every one readeth and expoundeth In the New Testament again you have this practise clearly set down Acts. 15. Where Paul and Barnabas though Apostles themselves go up to Jerusalem about the question of circumcising the Gentiles converted to the faith And there was holden the first council in which this is decided not out of Scripture but by the authority of the Council it self It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and us said they having the assured promise of the assistance of the Holy Ghost as the Church hath at all time Wherefore after the Apostles councils have decided with the same authority and upon the same infallible ground of the Holy Ghosts assistance promised to the Church Many controversies are acknowledged by Protestants for points of faith without express passage of Scripture Marcion teaching that Baptism should be conferred more then once and Donatists that Baptism conferred by Hereticks should be reiterated as invalid are condemned in the council holden at Rome under Melchiadâ—s Pope in the year 313. now what passage of Scripture I pray you is for this Sâ—bellius putting one person only in the God-head is câ—ndemned in the council of Alexandria under Pope Cornelius in the year 319. but scripture maketh no mention of persons Nestorius putting two persons in Christ is condemned in the Generall Council holden at Ephesus under Pope Caelestin the year 434. Yet neither doth the Scripture speak of thâ—â— The Monotheliâ—s giving to Christ one will in two Natures are condemned in the third general Câ—uncil holden at Constantinople under Pope Agathon the year 679. albeit there be no formal scripture for this So you see it belongeth both in the Old and New Testament to the high Priest and general Council to decide controversie either by Scripture if there be any passage clear for that point or without Scripture by Apostolick tradition conserved in the Church which scripture it self warranteth 2. Thess 2. 15. Hold fast the traditions which ye have learned either by word or our epistle but it seemeth you care not who be condemned or by whom if you take away all power on earth to condemne your selves Every Protestant will be condemned by none but Scripture and yet will make none judge of the Canon Version and sense of Scripture but himself All your answer is that we grant the Promulgation of the law to the pure Gospel Church but you shew not what is this pure Gospel Church neither can you infallibly prove the purity of the Gospel it self or that there is a Gospel or the true sense of the Gospel but by the Catholick Church her authority Hear Aug. contta Ep. fund cap. 5. Where he saith I my self would not have believed the Gospel were it not that the authority of the Church moved me to it Now the Catholick Church is that whose faith is spread through all the world in the Apostle Paul his time which maketh her to be justlie called the Catholick Roman Church and whose faith hath been in all ages since Christ which all the records of the Protestant writters witness of the Roman Church wherein the succession of Popes Bishops Councils is made conspicuous to all who have written Chronology or Church history in every age none whereof make mention of your Church or of men professing your tenets before Luther and Calvin from whom ye dissent in many things Answer first This is a prolix reply the Pro. Du. 1 substance of which might have been taken up in seven or eight lines As it is spacious so it is an impertinent rapsodie and like a beggers cloak clouted here and there with divers parcells without any method or cohesion It seemeth to have been taken out of some Index and cast in here to fill the page For the answer was That the promulgation of the law is not denyed to the pure Gospell-Church which is not the Roman-Church for it is impure Is not this a direct answer You prove that there hath been a Ministerial-Church in the old and new Testament which we doe not deny but this is the point did they so pronounce sentence and decide Controversies that all discretive judgement was taken from people or called they themselves infallible whether they had scripture warrand or not Or wil the promise of presence to the Apostles Prophets and penners of Scripture in measure and duration agree to any Church Officers now on Earth Or should promises made to the Universal-Church agree to any particular Church such as Rome Or will promises made to the collective body of the Church agree to the representative unless these be proved you fight with your own shadow For we are much for the authority of Christs Church and think that her judgment of old and late should sway privat men unless they can prove by scripture or sound reason that she erreth We are much for the authority of all lawful Councils and we give them all reverence in regard of the authority of their constitution but if they depart from the scriptures we owe them not active obedience Well speaketh our learned Camero tom 1. tract de infallibilitate ecclesiae So oft as any thing is decreed by a Council or assembly of men appointed by lawfull autharity
without any assentation that ye are a serious lover and diligent practiser of those Gospel verities which have been from the beginning And it will appear by proof as Tertullian speaketh antiquum nihil aliter suit quam sumus This maketh me consident that ye will entertain this Tractat for the truth To speak of your descent and ancient extract it belongeth to Historians and Heraulds not to me Yeâ— if any doubt of that let them read Hector Boetius historie concerning the reign of Alexander the third anno Chr. 1208. fol. 300. And again about the reign of King Robert Bruce anno Chri. 1320. fol 317. in both which famous mention is made of your Relatives Beside the Rudera of that old Castle in Murray called yet by your Name proclaimeth this much fuimus Trees Neither shall I insist upon the constancie and frequencie of your fervent devotion these seventie years and upward And how ye preveen the morning watches in the coldest season this commendeth the grace of GOD in you Your Antelucâ—na is such well backed with the practise of righteousness holiness peaceableness meekness temperance patience zeal and aboundance of spiritual fortitude if any will deny this they either know you not or love you not I intend not by this to fire your corruption that were not friendly breath but to further your faith and that others may learn of you to be religious indeed Go on worthie Sir in your Christian exercise well may ye flourish in old age well may ye finish your course with joy O that all descended of you may learn to follow your steps in holiness and righteousness this will be the mercy of your familie which is daily desired by Your well Wisher and Servant in the Gospel W. R. A Preface to the READER THE Congregation of DVNDEE Christian Reader was by the good hand of GOD for the space almost of an hundred yeares by-gone preserved from the infection of Poperie but of late some have been perverted by seducers to the prejudice of the Gospel and great scandal of the incorporation amongst whom one young woman descended of Religious and Honest Parents being led away with the errour occasioned this debate For after conference she seemed to be much affected and least that which then appeared to take impression on her minde should slippe out of her memory some grounds by way of a Dialogue were shortly written down with several wholsome Christian admonitions this short dialogue was by her put into the hands of a traffiquing Romanist and in stead of her Conversion so much desired eight sheets of paper are stuffed with reflections not only on it but on the Gospel-doctrine which is according to Godliness and all the professours thereof Ere I heard any such thing this pamphlet was spread with artificial insinuations and quickly convoyed from hand to hand for a time at last a well wisher to the truth sent a copie to me with this desire that I would reâ—ievâ— and refute it At first I enclined to passe it with silence because I thought discerning men would easily espy its weakness Thereafter hearing that some Popishly enclined did magnifie it least the reformed Doctrine should suffer prejudice I was advysed to pen a Reply with this resolution that except some new arguments be brought forth which are not answered by reformed Divines or here by me I will not trifle my time so much allotted for better work as to debate more on the subject here contained What is said may to my uptaking satisfie such as love the truths of the Gospel and in reason convince gain-sayers But if men will undervalue the word of GOD right reason and shutting their eyes declare them selves unsatisfiable an evil humour hath caused them to erre And I have other imployment not to wrestle with such Wisdom will be justified of her own children And in this time when prophanness and Popery walk on every side blessed is he who keepeth his garments clean and doth nothing against the truth but for it Seminary Priests are very diligent sowing their cockle amongst us in this land they have their own abettors proxies and procutors Is it not then the dutie of good Christians to arme themselves with the sword of the Spirit which is the word of GOD and keep their ground against adversaries The face of truth is beautiful and the salvation of souls precious This short Tractat is claiefly calculated for the Meridian of Dundee and for any single sincere Christian who seriously labour for Gospel truths and to worke out their own Salvation All such cannot have leasure to read voluminous books written by more able pens nor will they be at the expences to buy them and it may be also that some would not comprehend or relish them mediocriter docta mediocriter doctis placent saith the writter of the life of Pelicanus Books are like meats and somewhat of suitable sympathie contributeth to make them edifying if this convince convert or establish men in the truth it is the blessing of the GOD of truth for which I shal bless his Name If not it is my testimony to that truth wherein I have lived and hope in the strength of Iesus Christ to die So farr I 'le endeavoure to serve my generation this will be my peace whatever the event be and my conscience is witness that I hazard to publish this debate for no selfish end or any other respect whatever The Romanists for upholding their faulty fabrick have forged many unwarrantable devices some of which I shal bâ—iâ—fly touch here that by these as a tesâ—e ye may discern how they build wich wood hay stuble and daub the work all along with untempered morter Their first engyne is Matchiaveelian calumniare audacter If any man appear for truth in the gate they bend their tongues and pens as bowes with reproaches against such like that persecuting Roman who would first have the Virgins whom he minded to condemn deflowred by the hang-man that they might not be heard but die without regrate And as the primitive Christians were some-times put into beasts skins by their persecutours to the end that dogs might devoure them greedily So deal they with reformed Writters that truth be not heard from them How sinful is this way contrar to that Scripture Titus 3. 2. speak evâ—l of no man This is most like to the course which the adversaries of truth have still keeped So dâ—â—y they of old with the Prophets Psalm 69. v. 10. 11. Yea with Iesus Christ himself Matth. 11. 19. Matth. 12. 24 and all his Apostles 1. Cor. 4. 13. that they might overlay the truth and mâ—ke them the more easie prey to the teeth of obloquie and prejudice What is this bauling to the cause before any discerning person Quid ad rhombum Michael the Arch-Angel disputing with the Devil durst no bring against him a railing accusation Iud. v. 9. Let not this hinder men from hearing truth nor terrifie any from giving testimonie to it
other differences we are not for one GOD one Faith one Baptism it is absurd to speak so Question thirteenth May there not as yet Papists qu. 13 be an accommodation and union betwixt you and us Answer Will ye be like the Church at Rome to which the Apostle Paul did wâ—ite Prote ∣ stants Ans 1 his Epistle we will presently accord with any prosessing that faith and not destroying it by contradicting consequences and practices But ye are no more like that Church of Rome except in name then a strumpet is like to a Virgin The Epistle to the Romans is now against the Romans witness the point of Justification and subjection to the higher powers Secondly Will ye take the Scripture for the only rule of faith worship and manners We differ from none such But ye regard not the Scripture so much as your own traditions For ye fainzie that it is imperfect obscure must have an authoritie from your word otherwise that it is not to be believed Thirdly Those who have intended that work have lost their labour and thanks at all hands as Cassander Antonius de Dominis Barnesius Forbesius What agreemeÌ„t can the Temple of God have with Idols 2. Cor. â— 14. Reply In your 13. Section you answer to a Papists Reply Question which no Catholick would have made if ye understand by an accommodation betwixt you and us such as are in Scottish Trysts We granting something to you and ye something to us For as to gain the whole world a man should not lose his own soul so neither can be quyt one article of his faith without which it is impossible to please God But your way being better asking only two conditions to make this so much desired agreement The first is if ye will be like that Church of Rome to which the Apostle Paul did write his Epistle And the second is that we will take scripture for a rule We most willingly grant you both not taking scripture as every bungler who wresteth it but according to the exposition of the Church and the unanimous consent of the fathers Appoint the meeting where ye please on these terms He challenge no moe calumnies on this Question seeing now we are in terms of agreement having sufficiently confuted them before Duply You say no Catholick would have moved the question Are ye nâ—â— for unitie in the Lord amongst all Christians where is Prote ∣ stants Duply 1 your charitie now I remember you said once nothing here was mentioned by me but what was mentioned by others but now you graunt this hath nor come to your ears formerly this is strange Have you not seen Grotius and de Sancta Clara who move the same wheel At first you seem to be against all accommodation asmuch as against all reformation You cannot quite on article not unum jot a saith Bellarmin otherwise your Church might be declared fallible therefore such as hanker after reconciliation with you unless they mind to come up your length will prove fools in the end and lose all their labour Yet on a sudden you forget your self accepting of these terms offered but in repetition you embezle them unfaithfully For first will ye be like that Church to which the Apostle Paul did writ in point of justification by faith and subjection to the Magistrat These two you leave out being conscious that ye are contrar to divine direction in both these And how cometh it to pass that when the Apostle chap. 16. saluteth so many Saints at Rome he omitteth the Pope If he was then head of the Church and maketh no mention of his supremacie nor of their subjectioÌ„ to him which is summa rei one of your fundamentals seeing chap. 13. he ordained them for conscience sake to be subject to Nero. The world may see that the Apostle Paul hath been no Papist Secondly When you propound the second condition it is propounded lame barely you say that ye hold the Scripture for a ruleâ— but I said for the only rule of faith worship and manners Hold that then ye renounce traditians in matters of faith for the law of the Lord is perfect Ps 19. The Popes infallibility and univeâ—sal supremacie your latine worship communion under one kind prayers to Saints and for the dead Purgatory all which are clearly confuted by Scripture So if ye do not adhere to these conditions the meeting will be to smal purpose where ever it be appointed Justin Martyr Expos recta fidei saith Amongst the children of the Church matters divine must not be ordered and directed according to mens reason and thoughts but our speach and interpretation of them should be sitted to the sense and will of the Spirit of GOD. Basil in Exercit. de Fide It is a manifest defection from the faith and a clear evidence of pride either to reject any of these things which the Scripture contain or to bring in as a point of faith any thing which is not written in the word and he citeth that of our blessed Lord Iohn 10. 5. My sheep hear my voice a stranger they will not hear but flee from him Hilar. lib. 1. de Trinit when we speak of divine matters let us give to GOD the knowledge of himself and let us with all veneration follow his sayings for he is a meâ—t witness to himself who is not known but by himself Aug. lib. 6. Conf. cap. 5. Thou hast perswâ—ded me O GOD that not these men who believe these books which thou in all Ages hast founded upon thy authority are to be blamed but such as believe them not neither are they to be heard If any perchance should say to me whence knowest thou these books to have been ministred to man-kind by the Spirit of the one and most true GOD even that very same thing was mostly to be believed Aug. lib. 2. de Baptismo contra Donatist as Let us not bring false ballanceâ— wherein we may weigh what we will and as we will according to our own arbitriment saying this is heavy that is light but let us bring the divine ballance out of the holy Scriptures as the Lords treasurie and let us weigh in it what is more heavy and weighty Yea let us not weigh only but also acknowledge scriptuval truths to be weighed and determined alreadie by the Lord. Si Scriptura habeat controversiam ex eadem Scriptura adhibitis ejus testibus terminâ—tur Aug. de doctr Chr. lib. 3. cap. 28. Papists Quest. 14 Question fourteenth We are still gaiâ—ing Proselyts from you but few turne off from us and become members of your Church Answere Your pelf and policie is greater Prote ∣ stants Ans 1 then ours hereby simple soules are ensnared Secondly Ye give indulgencies for looseness this catcheth prophaine ones who love to live at random but without some such carnall design or prejudice we hear not that any turn off from us Thirdly Have not sundrie left Rome in the integrity of their heart and closed