coÌ„munion wee should finne greatly in putting them backe no lesse then the Corinthians should if they had put backe the vnbeleeuer pressing to come to their congregation By the premises it is euident Communion of Saints 6. Ibid. 6. that M. Ainsworth swarneth from the truth vvhen he saith The Saints must not hold communion in the true worship of God with any but in the light and in the faith meaning but vvith the children of the light and the faithfull And againe The children of God of the light and day are commanded to seperate from the children of men of this world of the diuell and of curse and to entertaine and continue a holy communion among themselues Marke how he condemneth all communion vvith hypocrites for hypocrites are the children of men of this vvorld of the diuel and of curse But with none such may we haue any religious communion Ergo vvith no hypocrites And â—f wee may not communicate in the vvorship of God neither vvith opâ—n and knowne wicked vvhich euery vvhere all of you vvith open mouth cry out vpon as an execrable thing nor vvith close secret wicked ones hypocrites I meane as here you teach then must wee communicate vvith the elect onely and by consequent vvith none at all because wee know not vvho bee elect The Lord onely knoweth who are his Againe wee must entertaine say you and continue a holy communion with the children of God of the light and day the heires of blessing and seperate from all others But all the children of God of the light c. are elect Therefore vvee must haue religious communion onely with the elect The Proposition is your owne The Assumption I am sure you will not deny But I know your euasion That by children of God of the light and day you meane not such onely as are the children of God indeede and the children of the light indeede and truth for all such you confesse are elect but all the members of the visible Church all which wee are to account the children of God and of the light yea the elect of God And so M. Smith teacheth in his Principles and Inferences All of the vis Church are to be accounted faithfull and elect Page 7. till they by obstinacie in sin and Apostacie declare the contrarie I answere you Christ in the parable of the seede and also by that speech of his Mat. 13.3 22.14 many are called but few chosen teacheth vs that few of the vis Church are elect all the rest being Reprobates Shall I now contrary to the truth hold and account all the members of the vis Church elect I haue shewed heretofore that in the visible Church there haue been are and wiâ—l be to the end of the world most notorious wicked and abominable men How can one seeing such men committing sinne with greedinesse and running headlong in the way to death account the same men at the same time elect and to bee of those few which are ordained to life Nay but will they say We doe not deny such to be elect as are obstinate sinners wee onely hold that all the members of the vis Church are to be accounted elect vntill they by obstinacie in sinne and apostacie declare the contrarie But happily some will say If we doe not account all of the vis Church Elect children of God and of the light this is against charitie which thinketh not euill of any but beleeueth all things 1. Cor. 13.5.6.7 and hopeth all things I answere that it is saide likewise of charitie It reioyceth not in iniquitie but reioyceth in the trueth But to deeme all of the visible church elect and therein as it were to ioy when the Scripture telleth vs cleane otherwise that all of the vis church a fewe excepted are reprobates this is not to reioyce in the trueth nor to iudge according to the trueth And therfore such iudgement is not agreeing with charitie To account and so to call them the children of God whose workes declare the contrary and the children of light that giue themselues to the workes of darkenesse is iniquitie and no lesse then to iustifie the wicked which is an abhomination to the Lord Pro. 17.15 Isa 5.20 to think and speake good of euill to put light for darkenesse and sweete for sower Against whom the Prophet pronounceth a fearefull woe The Scripture teacheth that this is rather hatred then loue We must know therefore that as charitie is not suspitious Pro. 13.24 but beleeueth and hopeth the best so she is not a foole but iuditious iudging of persons and things wisely and as neare as shee can according to the trueth But tell mee M. Ainsworth you I say who will haue all of the visible Church to be accounted the children of God Tell mee I say whether if you should see such members of the vis church as those mentioned Ioh. 8.44 of whom Iesus saith ye are of your father the Diuell and the lustes of your father yee will doe you would account such the children of God or no. If you answere affirmatiuely the speech of Christ to their predecessors doeth euidently conuince you If negatiuely that such are not to bee accounted the children of God you contradict your selfe and therein acknowledge that in the visible church there are some children of the diuell and that thâ—refore we may haue religious communion with the children of the diuell seeing by your owne doctrine wee may haue communion with all the members of the visible Church But leauing these let vs proceede to some other If in the true vis Church you should see such as the Scribes and Pharisees their right svccessors would you account and call them the children of God of the light c. Notwithstanding their palpable hypocrisie and other their abhominations their blasphemies and daily persecuting of Christ in his members these you must account and call the chilldren of God if your doctrine be true For I trust you will neither deny that the Scribes and Pharisees were members of the true visi church nor that there may bee such in the true Church as well now as in former time And here I must giue you to vnderstand that M. Ainsworth in the margent right against the aforesaid lines hath produced a full Iurie of witnesses and some to spare to prooue as at the first blush it might seeme to some That the children of God of the light and day may not entertaine an holy communion with the children of the Diuell The simple Reader is ouerwhelmed with such a clowde of witnesses And thereupon doubts not of the matter whereas the witnesses when they come to speake eleuen of them say not a word to the point but onely prooue this that of men some are named the children of god of the light and day c. Others the children of men of this world of the diuell and of curse as is plaine both by your own words
Tim. 3.5 Iohn 8.12 Christians in name or false Christians be they who professing true Religion or godlines haue denied the power thereof Or professing Christianity 1. Iohn 3.3 Rom. 2.28 and themselues to be Christians walke not as Christ after whom they are called walked As Paul saith He is not a Iew which is one outward circumcised only in the flesh so say I hee is not a Christian who is one outward Baptised alone with water And as in the same place the Apostle saith thus of one and the same man Thou art a Iew and yet thou art not a Iew A Iew before men but not a Iew before God So may we say of these men that they are Christians and yet are not Christians Christâ—ans before and in the reputation of men and yet not Christians before God and in his account A little before Rom. 2.17 to these kind of Iews the same Apostle speaketh thus Behold thou art called a Iew and restest in the law and gloriest in God 18. and knowest his will and triest the things that dissent from it in that thou art instructed by the Law 19. and perswadest thy selfe that thou art a guide of the blind a light of them which are in darknes c. Yet for as much saith he as thou breaking the law dishonorest God thou art no Iew. So to these I doe say yee are called Christians and glory in the Lord that hee is your God and yee are his people not Heathens or Infidels and seeme to your selues to know his will instructed by the Law and perswade your selues many good things of your selues yet for as much as through breaking of the Law yee dishonor God and cause his name and that holy Religion you doe professe to be blasphemed and euill spoken of you are indeed and truth and in the account of God who iudgeth according to truth no Christians All Christians of this kind be Hipocrites which of all people bee most hatefull to God Nay our Sauiour saith they bee Blasphemers Reuel 2.9 and 3.9 and therefore sinners in a very high degre I know the blasphemie of them which say they are Iewes and are not but the Sinagogue of Satan And marke how our Lord Iesus doth threaten these Hipocrites and deepe dissemblers with God and men in matters appertaining to God Behold I will make them of the Sinagogue of Satan which call themselues Iewes and are not but doe lye And heere we must remember that vsually the greatest part of the visible Church are Christians in name onely Hipocrites wicked and vngodly men reprobates which though they professe Christian Relâ—gion are in truth irreligious and though they professe holinesse are indeed prophane the lesser part of the visible Church hauing that faith in Christ that piety and holines whereof all make profession And this is confirmed by the parable of the seed The a This parable doth not onely teach that in euery place where the seed is sowen ordinâ—rily these foure different kinds of grouÌ„d are to be fouÌ„â— But besides that the greatest part of hearers and consequently of the visible Church is the worst field where this seed is sowen is the visible Church three parts wherof Iesus telleth vs is bad ground and only a fourth part good and fruitfull whereby our Sauiour teacheth vs that ordinarily the greatest part by ods and as it were three parts of foure in the Church visible be bad and vnfruitfull hearers like to the barren ground which is neere vnto b Hebr. 6.8 cursing whose end is to be burned and but a small part thereof good Wee may not vnderstand Christ iust according to the letter For as at sometimes and in some Churches there may be happily some more then a fourth part that receiue the seed of the Word into good and honest hearts where it taketh root downeward and bringeth forth fruit vpward so at other times and in some other Churches it may so fall out that nine parts thereof be bad and onely a tenth good nay why may not nineteene parts or more be naught and but the twentieth part good and yet be Churches of the Saints 1. Cor. 14.33 as Paul speaketh and so to bee called of the better part though it be farre lesse as a man is called a reasonable liuing creature Secondly this is manifest by that other speech of our Sauiour Many are called but few chosen Matth. 22.14 All that be and remaine vnder the voice and call of God that is the Ministery of the Word whereby God stretching forth his hands crieth aloud and calleth vpon the children of men that they would repent and beleeue and so bee saued bee of the visible Church Of this Church Christ telleth vs the number being great that yet few therin be good and such as shal be saued Me thinks that none of vnderstanding should deny that the former of these propositions Many are called is to be vnderstood of the visible Church and the latter But few are chosen of those of the inuisible Church who are in the visible This latter none will deny and the former is no lesse true which both the coherence or dependance of this verse with that which goeth before and also the very words doe euince and it is as if in more words it were thus said That society and company of men whom God the Father inuiteth to the Marriage of his Sonne to partake with him in his glory and the ioyes of the Kingdome of heauen is very great they be not a few but many to whom God maketh this offer and tender of saluation nay calleth vpon and is instant with them rising rarely and late first by Patriarkes then by Priests and Prophets afterwards by Apostles and their Successors Pastors and Teachers that they would be saued But in all ages among this great multitude of Iewes and Gentiles a few only be of Gods election and such as shall be saued Hereupon considering they who haue and enioy the external calling are the visible Church it followeth ineuitably that the most or greatest part of the visible Church are Reprobates such as are appointed to iust coÌ„demnation For if few in this great nuÌ„ber of the visible Church be elected many are reiected If now the most in the visible Church be reprobates then are they wicked and vngodly how holy a professioÌ„ soeuer they make This short speech Many are called but few are chosen our Lord vseth diuers times as Mat. 20.16 22.14 not so much for the certainty thereof as that we might the better learne and remember the same being iterated but chiefely that the faithfull might not bee offended and stumble at the multitude of the wicked and paucity of the godly in the Church seeing it is no new or strange thing but the very state and condition of the Church so as seldome or neuer it doth or can goe otherwise with the Church Wel and truely therefore saith a In Ecclesia etiam mali
in the visible Church are members of it vntill by excommunication they bee cut of But by your owne confession wicked men are in the visible Church therefore wicked men are members of it Which if it bee true all your doctrine almost of the visible Church is false But to put an end to this point and part of your description By the premises it is plaine that a true visible Church is not seperated from the world that is a company of righteous and godly men onely seperated from the open wicked of the world For if a visible Church be a mixt company of good and bad godly and vngodly for which cause it is compared to a barne floore to a field and to a draw-net as hath been shewed out of the holy Scriptures againe if from time to time in the ages precedent both vnder the Law and Gospell there haue beene and remained in the true visible Church vvicked yea many wicked and open wicked as hath likewise been made manifest by the Scriptures how can it possible be true which you affirme That a visible Church is a seperated companie of righteous men not mixed with but seperated from the wicked of the world If this doctrine of yours be true the one of these doe necessarily follow either the former persons of whom I haue spoken so much Ismael Esau Doeg Saul Absalom the Scribes and Pharises were not openly wicked and men of this world or not in the Church but without or else that the Church wherein they in thâ—ir time liued was not a true but a false Church The premises considered it is very fondly done of you so often to obiect against vs the mixture of good and bad in our Church Calling it Cofusion Babel Babilonish confusion and our Churches because of it Babylon and a meere madnesse for this cause to seperate from our Church And thus much concerning this clause in your description seperated from the world The rest of your description I omit as not greatly to bee found fault with though something might bee said against it For where you say It is a company ioyned together by voluntarie profession you should raâ—her haue said ioyning together c. Wee are ioyned and knit together by loue and doe ioyne and agree in the same profession And where you require a voluntarie profession of the faith of Christ and tels vs elsewhere that a true Church consisteth of a voluntary people and that ours are confused and compelled and so a false church You must know that a man may bee of the visible Church albeit his profession be not voluntarie as hath been declared before Neither is that so fit you adde of the Faith of Christ as if you had said of the true Religion The Papists professe the faith of Christ and so doe the Anabaptists Families with sundry others and yet are they false Churches But whatsoeuer societie professeth true Religion is a true church To conclude Apology 44. Confession of Faith 11. Counterp 133. this I say that vnderstanding these words seperated from the world as Christ meaneth Ioh. 17.14.16 and 15.19 Which testimonies you here in your confession of faith and in the Counterpoyson alledge for the proofe of this and therefore must so vnderstand them without manifest peruerting of the said Scriptures then is this a description rather of the militant Church or those of the inuisible Church that are effectually called then of the visible Church CHAP. III. Of the matter and forme of the visible Church AS these men doe greatly erre in their description of the visible Church so doe they likewise in other points touching the same and namely about the matter and forme thereof Iustification 88. 82. The constitution of the Church saith M. Robinson is the orderly collection and coniunction of the Saints into and in the couenant of the new Testament wherein the Saints are the matter the couenant the forme from which two concurring the Church ariseth and is by them constituted And in another place deliuering the very same with this hee addeth And this is that which giues true being of a Church and nothing else Because of this let vs so much the more carefully seeke out the true matter aâ—d forme of the visible Church and remember that if the Separists mistake the matter and forme of the visible Church as the trueth is they doe they cannot iudge aright of the Church and therefore their iudgement and account of our Church is to be despised We hold as hath already beene saide men not Angels or any other creatures but a company of men to be the matter of the visible Church and the profession of true Religion to be the forme So that wheresoeuer there is a company of men ioyning together in the profession of true Religion the same is and may truely be called a visible Church The Seperators teach otherwise and first that Saints are the matter of the visible Church forgetting that a company of Saints are a Church by the Testimony of the holy Ghost as before hath beene shewed in the third Chapter of the first booke and therefore such a societie containeth in it as well the forme as the matter without both which nothing can be But we must know that howsoeuer the Separists euen all of them agree in this That Saints are the matter of the visible Church yet notwithstanding they disagree at least in appearance about the matter because they differ about these Saints who Instif 105. principles and Inferenâ—es 10. M. Smith in his Answere to M. Beâ—n rd 27 28. Separatists Schisme 83. Counterp 174. and what they be Saints say some of them are a people forsaking all knowne sinne doing all the knowne will of God growing in grace and continuing to the ende and these say M. Smith and M. Robinson are the onely matter of the visible Church This being conuinced by some of our side M. Ainsworth answereth thus This position meaning the aforesaide description of Saints and that such are the matter of the visi church I deny and also disclaime the errors which be gathered from it and therefore will spend no time in answering it but referre M. Bernard to them that haue so spoken or written if any be This we hold and let vs see what M. Bernard can say against it That Saints by calling are the onely matter of a true visible church For confutation of this that M. Ainsworth and the more auncient of this schisme doe maintaine that little which hath beene saide may suffice and the rather because but a litle before M. Ainsworth accordeth with vs and is as contrary to himselfe herein as we be Counterp 170. To the constitution of a Church saith he there belong 1. A people as the matter whereof and 2. A calling gathering and vniting together as the forme whereof the Church consisteth Where obserue how he contradicteth himselfe 1. Hee expressely affirmeth that a people which is the same that wee teach
called vpon in and by the ministerie of the word that they would be saved and supp with Christ eat and drinke with him in the kingdome of his Father are the visible Church Reu. 3.20 Mat. 26.27 This cannot be denyed But good and bad are therevnto invited The visible Church therefore doth consist of these two kinds of men and not of righteous onely as the Separists doe teach Againe this mixture which we doe hould nay that the most of the visible Church are wicked is manifest by that which Iesus annexeth to this Parable wherewith al he doth knit it vp Verse 14. for many are called but few chosen Al that be vnder the call or voice of God calling vpon them in and by the Ministry of the word that they would repent and beleeue that so they may be saved and yeild an outward obedience to this call are the visible Church Of these saith Iesus that haue this externall calling and are the visible Church Ne putatetur sicut Donatistae putant quod velut vnus in turba latenter sui repsisset ignaris continuo Dominus in eodem ipso vno quem ligatis manibus pedibus in tenebras exteriores ex illo conuiuio proijci Iusfit multam societatem malorum esse intelligendam inter quos pauciores boni in conuivio Dominico viuunt significare non distulit Nam posteaquam dixit Ligate illi manus pedes proijcite eum in tenebras exteriores ibi erit fletus stridor dentium continuo subjecit Multi sunt vocatj Pauci vero electi Quomodo hoc verum est cum potius vnus e multis suisset proiectus in tenebras exteriores nisi quia in illo vno grande corpus figurabatur omnium malorum ante Domini iudicium conviuio Dominico permixtorum A quibus se boni corde interim ac moribus separant simul manducantes bibentes corpus et sanguinem Domini August Tom. 7. contra Donat. post collat cap. 20. there are many but among those but a few good and such as shall be saved And this is the scope and drift of the aforesaid Parable as is playne by the inference that he maketh thereupon in these words next following the said Parable for many are called but few chosen Wherein Iesus sheweth how this commeth to passe which before he hath taught in the Parable to wit that in the visible Church there are so many wicked and so few good so many prophaine earthly minded men and so few that doe earnestly desire and seeke after heaven and those things that lead therevnto and namely faith and holines without which no man shall see the Lord. Because saith he in the visible Church their are few elect who only can and doe beleeue and out of that faith leade an holy life the rest being reprobates and left in their naturall wickednes cannot but be wicked All in the visible Church these few elect excepted are wicked profane vncleane and an abomination to the Lord. With such faithfull ones converts such Saints righteous and holy persons as these doth the visible Church abound and overflow And this is no lesse manifest by the Parable of the seed wherein as the Minister of Christ it compared to a sower the word preached to seede so is the visible Church coÌ„pared to the field where seed is sowen and to such a field whereof three parts is naught and a fourth onely good By that which hath beene said it is manifest that in the Church visible there be not onely wicked men and extreamely or out of measure wicked but that the most therein are wicked children of Belial and few righteous therein to be found Yea the aforesaid cause and reason of our Sauiour considered how can it possibly be otherwise If therefore this be the state of our Church at this day as too true it is that in it there are many wicked and few godly yet this wickednes and vngodlinesse of the people and mixture of so many bad with so few good le ts not but that notwithstanding wee may bee and indeede are a true visible Church Tell mee now I beseech you how the aforesaid lines of yours for which you pretend Scripture and those that I haue here deliuered which all men may euidently see are grounded vpoÌ„ the holy Scriptur can possibly stand together You say that a true visible Church is a company of Righteous or godly men not mixed with but separated from the wicked of the world Wee say that it is not such a separated company but a mixt company of godly and wicked good and bad holy and profane You say that in the visible Church there is no vncleane thing that is no wicked person we say that in the visible Church the most are vncleane and wicked yea sometimes almost all be such And as this which we teach hath beene confirmed and your errour herein conuinced by the sacred Scriptures so may it be by your owne writings yea by the words next and immedâ—ately following your description of the visible Church wherein you teach this false and erronious doctrine Hauing defined or described the visible Church That is a company of people called and separated from the world by the Word of God and ioyned together by voluntary profession of the faith of Christ in the fellowship of the Gospell Apology 44. You thereupon make this inference And therefore no knowne Atheist vnbeleeuer hereticke or wicked liuer may be receiued or retained a member in the Church of Christ which is his body Now in that you say no knowne Atheist vnbeleeuer hereticke or wicked liuer you thereby imply and secretly acknowledge that Atheists vnbeleeuers and wicked men may be receiued retained members in the visible Church so they bee not openly knowne to bee such If then in the true visible Church there haue euer beene are and will be Atheists vnbeleeuers heretickes and wicked liuers as your selues according to the truth acknowledge then is the visible Church by your owne Doctrine a confused and mixt company of good and bad holy profane and not a separated company of Righteous men Saints and faithfull in your sence except Atheists vnbeleeuers heretickes and wicked liuers be righteous men be Saints be faithfull If you deny that your aforesaid inference doth imply so much as I affirme I make it plaine thus He that shall say No knowne Whoremonger may bee admitted to the Lords supper therein confesseth that a close or vnknowen whoremonger may bee admitted to the Lords supper Euen so it is in this case These men being thus conuinced and yet not enduring it may be to yeelde I knowe what will be their shift and euasion euen the same which the Donatists in the like case vsed before them Malos in ecclesia permixtos esse confessi sunt Donatistae sed oucultos cos esse dixerunt August Tom. 7. contra Donatistas post collat Cap. 7. Defence of the Churches and Minist of
a company of men are the matter of the visible Church and heere that Saints by calling are the onely matter In the one place he makes calling a part of the forme in the other part of the matter But I maruell greatly M. Ainsworth that you scornfully reiect this description of Saints seeing it suteth so well with all the writings and namely that whole booke of yours called Communion of Saints 66. The Communion of Saints In it you writ thus All men and women called to the faith of God are Saints by calling being sanctified by Christ Iesus and one with another are holy brethren Saints by calling by your owne exposition are those who 1. by Faith are vnited to Christ and 2. by loue one to another and 3. are sanctified by Christ Iesus that is by his Spirit dwelling in them He is very ignorant who thinketh that these haue not forsaken all knowne sinne and doe all the knowne will of God that is desire and endeauor it and he hath cleane forgotten that of the Apostle If Christ be in you the body is dead because of sinne and the Spirit is life for righteousnes sake which euidently prooueth the same Rom. 8.10 Moreouer you tell vs in the same booke communion of Saints in the end of the booke That in the Saints sinne dieth and righteousnesse renueth daily both inwardly and outwardly yea that in the Hypocrites which be in the Church righteousnesse increaseth outwardly If these positions of yours bee true not vnfitly nor vntruly do they teach that saints are men for saking all knowne sinne doing all the known will of God and increasing in grace Considering they meane externally and so farre as men can iudge You all teach that a true visible Church consisteth onely of Saints and by Saints you meane such as haue at the least external righteousnesse and liue vnblameablie in an holy conuersation before men And because all in our Church bee not such Saints but many scandalous in their liues you condemne vs for a false Churse This you cannot denie to bee true Is it not hereby manifest that all of you in effect though not in the same wordes doe likewise teach That Saints are men seperated from all knowne sinne doing all the will of God knowne doeth not that externall righteousnesse and outward sanctimony which you require in all Saints and membâ—rs of the visible Church impâ—y as much as these men heere speake can any be vnblamable which you require in all Saints who forsaketh not before men all knowne sinne and doeth not all the knowne will of God Why then doe you disclaime this discription of Saints You render this reason because from this discription diuers errors doe arise and therefore it must needes bee erronious and fa fe All this I confesse to be true Can you discerne this position or discription being taught by another to be erronious and that from it sunâ—ry errors doe growe whereupon you disclaime it and them and haue you not an eye to see and an heart to abhorre and disclaime the same doctrine when it is taught by your selfe But though M. Ainsworth disclaime this abbortiue yet M. Robinson being more naturall doeth take to it Iustif 105. This position quoth he which you M. Bernard account error rightly vnderstood and according to his exposition from whom you receiued it meaning M. Smith is an vndoubted trueth For of such onely externally and so farre as men can iudge the true Church is gathered and of them alone framed as of the subiect matter Seeing therefore you doe fully agree about the matter of the visible church and that your selues and others mistake it in thinking that you doe heere abouts differ knowe that that which followeth against your supposed matter of the visible Church is meant and spoken against you all and that iustly because it maketh as well against all of the seperation as any First then I demaund of you who teach that Saints are a people forsaking all knowne sinne doing all the knowne will of God increasing in grace c. And that such are the onely matter of the visible Church whether a company of people thus qualâ—fied and graced of God be a Church or to be held to be without and a Synagogue of Satan Surely you will blush and be ashamed to answere negatiuely And if you answere that such a societie is a Church then haue we a Church consisting onely of matter without the forme for such a people as these say you are the matter of a true visible Church wherevnto the forme remaineth to bee added which what it is you tell vs after Now you know it is vtterly vnpossible that a Church or any thing else should be without the forme seeing the forme giues being to a thing but set downe after another manner Secondly it cannot bee denied but such Saints as these are Conuerts yea so farre as man can iudge truely conuerted to the Lord. If the Church consist of such persons onely it followeth necessarily therevpon that men are conuerted not in the Church by the Ministerie of the Pastors and Teachers thereof but without I know not by whom nor by what meanes which is as false as your seperation is sinfull and therefore is this your doctrine false from whence this is inferred Indeed I know that this inference is with you orthodoxall For in your Apologie among the Positions you were bold to tender to his Maiestie this is one That discreet faithfull Apology 45. and able men though not yet in office of Ministerie may bee appointed to preach the Gospell and whole truth of God that men being first brought to knowledge and conuerted to the Lord may then be ioyned in holy communion with Christ our head and one with an other And for confirmation therof you produce seuenteene testimonies of holy writ and seuen reasons But to let your abuse of Scripture and of that reason which God hath giuen you goe I tell you this doctrine and position of yours is against Scripture and therefore as impossible to be proued either by Scripture or Reason By the fourth of the Ephesians it is plaine that Christ ascending on high gaue Pastors and Teachers to the Church as well for the gathering together of the Saints that is for the calling of men to the faith or conuerting them to God whereby men before profane and wicked are made Saints or holy ones as for the edifying and building vp of these Saints in the faith and other graces of the Spirit after they be called You teach now the direct contrary that Christ hath not giuen his Ministers Pastors and Teachers to the former of these ends aforesaid which is also the principall but hath say you appointed that men not in the Ministery but priuate no Church officers should conuert men to the Lord and the Ministers of Christ are onely to edifie and build them vp in grace So that priuate men they lay the foundation Ministers doe but