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A87879 An answer to the Marques of Worcester's last paper; to the late King. Representing in their true posture, and discussing briefly, the main controversies between the English and the Romish Church. Together with some considerations, upon Dr Bayly's parenthetical interlocution; relating to the Churches power in deciding controversies. To these is annext, Smectymnuo-Mastix : or, short animadversions upon Smectymnuus in the point of lyturgie. / By Hamon L'Estrange, Esqr. L'Estrange, Hamon, 1605-1660. 1651 (1651) Wing L1187; Wing L1191; Thomason E1218_2; ESTC R202717 68,906 120

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should not trust in arms of flesh Tertullian was a Montanist Cyprian a Rebaptist Origin an Anthropomorphist Hierom a Monoganist Nazianzen an Angelist Eusebius an Arrian Saint Augustine had written so many Errors as occasioned the writing of a whole Book of Retractions they have oftentimes contradicted one another and some times themselves Now for General Councels Did not that Concilium Ariminense conclude for the Arrian Heresie Did not that Concilium Ephisinum conclude for the Eutichian Heresie Did not that Concilium Carthaginense conclude it not lawfull for Priests to marry Was not Athanasius condemned In Concilio Tyrio Was not Eiconolatria established In Concilio Nicaeno secundo What should I say more when the Apostles themselves less obnoxious to Error either in Life or Doctrine more to be preferred than any or all the world besides one of them betrays his Saviour another denies him all forsake him They thought Christ's Kingdom to be of this world and a promise onely unto the Jews and not unto the Gentiles and this after the Resurrection They wondred that the holy Ghost should fall upon the Gentiles Saint John twice worshipped the Angel and was rebuked for it Apoc. 22. 8. Saint Paul saw how Peter walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel Gal. 2. 14. Not onely Peter but other of the Apostles were ignorant how the Word of God was to be preached unto the Gentiles But who then shall rowl away the stone from the mouth of the Monument Who shall expound the Scriptures to us One puls one way and another another by whom shall we be directed Scinditur incertum studia in contraria vulgus You that cry up the Fathers the Fathers so much shall hear how the Fathers do tell us that the Scriptures are their own Interpreters Irenaeus who was Scholar to Policarpus that was Scholar to Saint John l. 3. c. 12. thus saith Ostentiones quae sunt in Scripturis non possunt ostendi nisi ex ipsis Scripturis the Evidences which are in Scripture cannot be manifested but out of the same Scripture Clemens Alexandrinus Nos ex ipsis deipsis Scripturis perfecte demonstrantes ex fide persuademus demonstrative Strom. lib. 7. Out of the Scriptures themselves from the same Scriptures perfectly demonstrating do we draw demonstrative Persuasions from Faith Crysost Sacra Scriptura seipsam exponit auditorem errare non sinit Basilius Magnus Quae ambigue quae obscure videntur dici in quibusdam locis sacrae Scripturae ab iis quae in aliis locis aperta perspicua sunt explicantur Hom. 13. in Gen. Those things which may seem to be ambiguous and obscure in certain places of the holy Scripture must be explicated from those places which else-where are plain and manifest Augustinus Ille qui cor habet quod precisum est jungat Scripturae legat superiora vel inferiora inveniet sensum Let him who hath a precise heart joyn it unto the Scriptures and let him observe what goes before and that which follows after and he shall finde out the sense Gregorius saith Ser. 49. De verbis Domini Per Scripturam loquitur deus omne quod vult voluntas Dei sicut in Testamento sic in Evangelio inquiratur By Scripture God speaks his whole minde and the will of God as in the old Testament so in the new is to be found out Optatus contra parmenonem lib. 5. Num quis aequior arbiter veritatis divinae quam Deus aut ubi Deus manifestius loquitur quam in verbo suo Is there a better Judge of the divine Verity than God himself or where doth God more manifestly declare himself than in his own Word What breath shall we believe then but that which is the breath of God the holy Scriptures for it seems all one to Saint Paul to say Dicit Scriptura the Scripture saith Rom. 4. 3. and Dicit Deus the Lord saith Rom. 9. 17. The Scripture hath concluded all under sin Gal. 3. 22. For that which Rom. 11. 32 he saith God hath concluded all c. How shall we otherwise conclude than but with the Apostle 1 Cor. 2. 12. We have received not the spirit of the world but the spirit which is of God that we might know the things that are freely given unto us of God They who know not this spirit do deride it but this spirit is the hidden Manna Apoc. 2. 17. which God giveth them to eat who shall overcome it is the white stone wherein the white name is written which no man knoweth but he that received it Wherefore we see the Scripture is the Rule by which all difference may be composed it is the Light wherein we must walk the Food of our Souls an Antidote that expels any Infection the onely Sword that kils the Enemy the onely Plaister that can cure our Wounds and the onely Documents that can be given towards the attainment of everlasting Salvation AN ANSWER TO THE Marqu of WORCESTERS Late Paper to the KING M. YOur Majesty is pleased to wave all the marks of a true Church and to make recourse to Scripture His Majesty waves not the marks of the true Church but waves the frequent Roman Church as not true because she wants those marks That he hath recourse to Scripture why should the Marques blame him it is the witness of God greater than that of men 1 John 5. 9. M. I humbly take leave to aske your Majesty what Heretique that ever was did not so Here the Marques calls his Majesty Heretique by craft but first is at King King by your leave that he might do it with the more civility M. How shall the greatest Heretique in the world be confuted or censured if any man may be permitted to appeal to Scriptures margin'd with his own Notes sensed with his own meaning and enlivened with his own private spirit to what end were those marks so fully both by the Prophets the Apostles and our Saviour himself set down if we make no use of them We deny utterly any such Appeal we say The Scripture must be margin'd with its own Notes for what is doubtfull and dark in one place is elsewhere clearly and evidently explained a Sensed with its own meaning from the Scriptures themselves must we receive the sense of Truth b So Clemens the second Bishop of Rome nay and more than so we must not go out of it to a forreign Interpreter and enlivened with its own Spirit For the things of God knoweth no man but the Spirit of God 1 Cor. 2. 11. And therefore cursed say I be he that removeth the Lords Land-marks The M. findes the K. firm and close to Scripture and seeing him so resolved pretends in compliance with his Majesty recourse to that too yea and promiseth to lead the K. to his Church through the full body of the Scriptures and it is indeed the best the nearest way to the Church
be given in an Answer to all particulars cannot be required But this Answer to that Reply cannot comprehend the whole Arrest and content of this Tract there are some Animadversions relating to Dr. Bayly which I have stitcht as an Appendix and Lean-to to that Answer the word is I think concinn and apt enough it relating to that Doctor whom his Majesty suspected a a Lean-to to the Marques And truly that Discourse of his which I have undertaken speaks him little lesse wherein his Majesty not the Marques steps in as Opponent he that pretended so much b wariness of seeming to present the late King worsted was not wary at all of seeming to present himself according to the idiome of speech Worster'd Christian Charity bids me repute him under a notion more modified than Papist but Truth it self enforceth me to say he erreth in some particulars with the Church of Rome yet were he more than popish Papist profest my witness is in Heaven c ill will to the man I bear none a Member of the Church he is and d as the Church is a name of Vnity not of Separation so I heartily beseech God that all those who are Members of that Church and consigned Christians may be of one minde in the Lord and keep the Vnity of the spirit in the bond of peace which peace the Lord of peace himself give us always by all means Vale The late Kings Paper in answer to the Marques of Worcester Introductorily discussing some Controversies between the English and the Romish Church MY Lord I have perused your Paper whereby I finde that it is no strange thing to see Error triumph in Antiquity and flourish all those Ensignes of Vniversality Succession Vnity Conversion of Nations c. in the face of Truth and nothing was so familiar either with the Jews or Gentiles as to besmear the face of Truth with spots of Novelty for this was Jeremiahs case Jer. 44. 16. viz. As for the word which thou hast spoken unto us in the Name of the Lord we will not hearken unto thee but we will certainly do whatsoever thing hath gone forth of our own mouths to burn incense unto the Queen of Heaven and to powre out drink-offering unto her as we have done we and our fathers our Kings and our Princes in the Cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem as we have done there is Antiquity we and our fathers there is Succession In the Cities of Judah and Jerusalem there is Vniversality so Demetrius urged Antiquity and Vniversality for the goddess Diana viz. That her Temple should not be despised nor her Magnificence destroyed whom all Asia and the World Worshipped So Symmachus that wise Senator though a bitter Enemy to the Christians Servanda est inquit tot seculis fides sequendi sunt nobis parentes qui feliciter sequuti sunt suos we must defend that Religion which hath worn out so many Ages and follow our Fathers steps who have so happily followed theirs So Prudentius would have put back Christianity it self viz. Nunc dogma nobis Christianum nascitur post evolutos mille demum Consules Now the Christian Doctrine begins to spring up after the revolution of a thousand Consul-ships But Ezekiel reades us another Lecture Ne obdurate cervices vestras ut patres vestri cedite manum Jehovae ingredimini sanctuarium ejus quod sanctificavit in saeculum colite Jehovam Deum vestrum Be not stiff-necked as your fore-fathers were resist not the mighty God enter into his Sanctuary which he hath consecrated for ever and worship ye the Lord your God Radbodus King of Phrygia being about to be baptized asked the Bishop what was become of all his Ancestors who were dead without being baptized The Bishop answered that they were all in Hell whereupon the King suddenly withdrew himself from the Font saying Ibi profecto me illis Comitem adjungam Thither will I go unto them no less wise are they who had rather err with Fathers and Councels than rectifie their understanding by the Word of God and square their Faith according to its Rules Our Saviour Christ saith we must not so much hearken to what hath been said by them of old time Matth. 21. 12. as to that which he shall tell you where Auditis dictum esse antiquitis is exploded and Ego dico vobis is come in its place which of them all can attribute that credit to be given unto him as is to be given to Saint Paul Yet he would not have us to be followers of him more than he is a follower of Christ 1 Cor. 11. 1. Wherefore if you cry never so loud Sancta mater Ecclesia sancta mater Ecclesia the holy mother Church holy mother Church as of old they had nothing to say for themselves but Templum Domini Templum Domini the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord we will cry as loud again with the Prophet quomodo facta est meretrix Urbs fidelis How is the faithfull City become an Harlot If you vaunt never so much of your Roman Catholick Church we can tell you out of Saint John that she is become the Synagogue of Sathan neither is it impossible but that the house of prayers may be made a Den of Thieves you call us Hereticks we answer you with Saint Paul Acts 24. 14. After the way which you call Heresie so worship we the God of our fathers believing all things which were written in the Law and the Prophets I will grant you that all those marks which you have set down are marks of the true Church and I will grant you more that they were belonging to the Church of Rome but then you must grant me thus much that they are as well belonging to any other Church who hold and maintain that Doctrine which the Church of Rome then maintained when she wrought those Conversions and not at all to her if she have changed her first Love and fallen from her old Principles for it will do her no good to keep possession of the Keys when the Lock is changed now to try whether she hath done so or no there can be no better way than by searching the Scriptures for though I grant you that the Catholick Church is the white in that Butt of Earth at which we all must aim yet the Scripture is the heart centre or peg in the midst of that white that holds it up from whence we must measure especially when we are all in the white We are all of us in gremio Ecclesiae so that Controversies cannot be decided by the Catholick Church but by the Scriptures which is the thing by which the nearness nnto Truth must be decided for that which must determine Truth must not be fallible but whether you mean the consent of Fathers or the Decrees of General Councels they both have erred I discover no Fathers nakedness but deplore their infirmities that we
it is the body of Christ is there what need we dispute whether the Bread remaineth in Substance or not The Glosse of the Canon Law The Bread is called Christs body improperly meaning that it signifieth Christs body Against the Infallibility of the Church that is as the Marques confest to his Majesty p. 79. of the Church of Rome that is as Valentia saith the Bishop of Rome Alphonsus de Castro Every man may err in Faith yea though he be the Pope himself Gerson The Pope as well as an inferiour Bishop is obnoxious to erre in Faith Catharinus Nothing hindereth but the Pope may err in Faith though some Novellists are so impudent to hold the contrary against the common sence of all antiquity Adrian the sixth a Pope himself affirmeth it for certain That a Pope may erre in asserting heresy by his Decree and that many Popes have been heretiques Bannes It was the general opinion of all the ancient both Popes and School-men till Pighius and since him of the more sober Doctors as Cajetan Turrecremata Victoria Soto Canus and others that the Pope of Rome may become an heretique Against Merits and Supererogation Waldensis He is the best Catholique who confesseth that simply no man meriteth the Kingdom of heaven but obtaineth it of Gods free grave Ferus If thou desirest to keep in Gods favour make no mention of thine own Merits Durandus If God give any reward to our good deeds it is not because he is a debter to our works but out of his own bounty Ariminensis No work performed by man is condignely meritorious of eternal life no nor of any temporal reward Pighius We are made righteous not by our own righteousnesse but by the righteousnesse of God in Christ This is that Pighius who Bellarmine saith was miserably seduced by reading Calvins works But who was it seduced the Cardinal himself to pray that God would admit of him amongst the Elect not a priser of his Merit but a dispenser of pardon and forgivenesse Against Invocation of Saints Halensis our Country-man God alone is simply to be prayed to the Saints are rather assistants in the behalf of those who pray then fit to be prayed to Bannes That Saints are to be prayed to and images to be worshipped is neither expresly nor by implication taught in Scripture Suarez That in the Old Testament any one did directly pray to the Saints departed either to help them or pray for them we no where read Salmeron Invocation of Saints is not mentioned in the New Testament and it may administer occasion to the Gentiles of worshipping many Gods Durandus Adoration must be bestowed onely upon God not upon the Angels lest we fall into the sin of Idolatry Against Communion halfed Halensis whole Christ is not conteined in either kind Sacramentally but his flesh under the species of bread and his bloud under the species of wine Lorichius 'T is heresy and execrable blasphemy of Bastard-Catholiques who say that Christ spake onely to the Apostles saying Drink ye all of this when both these words Eat and Drink were spoken to the whole Church Valentia Communion under one kind began to be generally received a little before the Councel of constance Pope Gelasius We find that one part of the Sacrament cannot be received without the other without committing great Sacriledge Against the Sacrifice of the Masse The Master of the sentences It is demanded if what the Priest consecrateth be properly a Sacrifice to this it may be briefly replied that what is offered by the Priest is called a Sacrifice because it is a Memorial and representation of the ture Sacrifice made once upon the Crosse Against the seven Sacraments Cardinal Bessarion Baptisme and the Lords Supper are the onely Sacrament delivered evidently in the Gospels Thomas Aquinas The form of Baptisme and the Eucharist are extant in the Scriptures but not the form of other Sacraments Matrimony is not to speak properly a Sacrament Durandus There want not some Catholiques who grant that Matrimony is no Sacrament of the new Law Bellarmine Penance is divided amongst the Papists into Confession absolution and satisfaction But Confession is denied to be any part of this Sacrament by Scotus Major Gabriel and absolution is denied by Dominicus a Soto and Bellarmine himself saith that inward contrition is sufficient to save us without either absolution or Confession The Sacrament of confirmation as it is a Sacrament was neither instituted by Christ nor his Apostles Halensis The Apostles delivered neither the matter nor form of this Sacrament but onely confirm'd some without the Ministery of a Sacrament Bonaventute Of the form of this Sacrament we read nothing in Scripture if we resort to tradition we shall find a great deal of variety amongst the Fathers Sudres There are but two places urged from Scripture for extream unction Marc. 6. vers. 13. is the first where it is said that the Apostles anointed with oyl many that were sick and healed them But Bellarmine denieth that unction to be Sacramental because saith he the Apostles were not yet made Priests The other is James 5. 14. cited by the Marques and Cajetan saith neither from the words nor from the effect can it be gathered that the Apostle speaks thereof the Sacramental union Against Purgatory Roffensis Purgatory cannot be proved by Scripture and amongst the antients there is none at all or very rawly any mention of Purgatory and the Greek Church denieth it to this day Otho Fris That there is any such place of Purgatory in hell wherein they who are to be saved must be purified by an expiatory fire some but not all assert By this time I hope I have made good my promise for I think the Romish Catholiques nor can nor will deny but all these are their own Doctors and all this our Doctrine Finally If neither prescription of 1600 years possession and continuance of our Churches Doctrine nor our evidence out of the Word of God nor the Fathers witnessing to that evidence nor the decrees of Councels nor your own acknowledgements be sufficient to mollify and turn your Royal heart there is no more means left for truth or me but I must leave it to God in whose hand are the hearts of Kings This Finally contradicts his Lordships late lastly and it is a formidable a terrible conclusion a conclusion able to make the stoutest Protestant reel did we not know that these are but words of course and meer set forms of Ostentation what is indeed more feasable then to be foyl'd when he who is our enemy {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} is become all he can desire accuser witnesse Judge But shall his Lordship carry away this conclusion {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}
without controul No sure admit they could prescribe for 1600 years must prescription prescribe and out Truth But can they prescribe for 1600 years in any one point where in they differ from us Can they in many for 1000 can they in some for 600 their grand Novelty of Transubstantiation will tell them no and it is well known the slender possession their errours have had hath not been so quiet so peaceable so undisturbed but that Truth hath made her constant and continual claim As for their evidence out of the word of God out of the word of God it is I confesse but it would do much better in it And in it they have so little as their greatest Clerks acknowledge that prayer to the Saints worshipping of their Images celebrating their festivals the not iterating of the Sacraments of Orders and confirmation are taught in Scripture neither expresly nor by implication So Bannes from whom Canus differeth onely in superadding the Sacrifice of the Eucharist As for the Fathers and Councels witnessing to that evidence such as the Scripture evidence is for the Papists such is their witnessing to that evidence just so and no more which more explicitely is just none at all For I challange them to produce any one Father of the first 500 years who held and maintained any one point of Doctrine as the Councel of Trent now holds where differing from us of Doctrine I say for in ceremonies they may I grant find many presidents in antiquity conformable to theirs As for our own acknowledgements sure his Lordship did not in good earnest and seriously think we Reputed and own'd Luther the Hussites the Waldenses for Ours no we always constantly urge them as Romish Catholiques though in some particulars they oppugned her Doctrine Thus his Lordships specious and flashy conclusion is reduced to a meer nothing And his Majesty was at this brunt in no great danger of becoming the Marques his convert Certain Considerations upon Dr BAYLY'S Interlocution concerning the True Church its being Judge of Scripture THe Doctor's Invective against Sacriledge shall create him no trouble from me I desire not to meddle with Impertinencies Since your Majesty was pleased to discharge the Watch which I had set before the Door of my Lips The Watch before the Door of your Lips was it seems of your own setting and because so 't is like his Majesty thought fit to discharge it not desiring to leave them without a Guard but hoping they might be relieved with that which the Prophet David call'd to God for Psalm 141. v. 3. I shall make bold to put your Majesty in minde of holding my Lord to the Demand which your Majesty once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church for if once that Question were throughly determined all Controversies not onely between your Majesty and his Lordship but also all Controversies that ever were would soon be decided at a short race end And is there no way no means to end Controversies but by that which this fifteen hundred years and upward hath been disputed what it is and where to finde it Did God provide so ill for us as to leave us in suspense concerning the main points of Faith untill that Church which is yet in the clouds shall define what is the true sense of that Scripture which must guide us to eternal happinesse And if after 15 hundred years debate this Church were but in view some comfort it were to us but clear it is and a miserable case she is as far off for ought we know as ever for we are not agreed upon those marks and tokens by which she must be known Our Church the Church of England holds the purity of Doctrine preached agreeable to God's Word and Sacraments administred according to Christ's Ordinance to be the notes of it The papists hold they know not how many Bellarmine reckons fifteen but at last reduceth them to four according to the most usual and received Opinion amongst them Unity Holinesse Universality Succession as they are in the Nicene Creed but yet he comes reeling off too giving them no more than an Evidence of Credibility so that if a man will believe them he may and may not if he will and if we were agreed upon the true marks yet should we not be agreed upon the true Church for suppose the four mentioned before and urged by the Church of Rome be they yet we say they are more visible in our Church than in that of Rome There are not amongst us three hundred and three differences in points of Religion as hath been demonstrated in the Church of Rome and therefore ours the greater Unity For Holinesse that is a grace keeps home and stirs little abroad yet if we may judge of it by its fruits the papists cannot shew us more wicked members of our Church than we can them Heads of theirs so the thing Holinesse is ours let the Title be theirs For Universality Rome wherein she differeth from us cannot prove her Assertions from the testimony of the primitive Church in some points for a thousand years not in any for five hundred after Christ so we are the more Catholique Lastly for Succession of Doctrine which is the best Succession we derive ours from all the Apostles Rome onely from Peter derives onely a Succession of Chairs and yet it is not infallibly certain that ever Peter was at Rome much lesse Bishop there and therefore our Succession the best too so that as the case now stands between us we are not like to agree in haste Doctor I wish you could set us through and truly I must needs say in my opinion you have made a fair offer at deciding this Controversie when you said The true Church must be a Society of Men though I can go no further with you for that That Society of Men are to be supreme Judge of Scripture and Controversies Theological will not down with me nor I believe with many more For let that Society of Men be a General Councel which is a supposition of as much advantage to you as you can desire because it represents the Catholique Church and it is but a supposition too for though there have been before the Empire was split General Councels in former times yet as the case stands now it seemeth to wise men an incredible thing that ever such a Councel shall be again and Religion would be in a most sad condition were all controversies to stay for decision till then Besides Doctor it hath befallen some General Councels that there hath been shamefull packing and fore-stalling of Suffrages and Voices before they met and when met many have been frighted and minaced to vote clean contrary to their own sense and such Councels are but ill to be trusted with Questions of Faith in my poor opinion But suppose your Councel met and assembled and with all the fairest carriage and freedom you can desire they are but