Selected quad for the lemma: truth_n
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A43991
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The history of the civil wars of England from the year 1640-1660 / by T.H.; Behemoth
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Hobbes, Thomas, 1588-1679.
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1679
(1679)
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Wing H2239; ESTC R35438
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143,512
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291
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others and contrarily what one calls Vice an other calls Vertue as their present Affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed amongst the Vertues that which in my Opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whether do we Digress from the way we were in B. I think you have not Digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that past in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Counsels and Artifices by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have Written the History out of whom I might have Learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance but I find little in them of it I would ask therefore since you were pleased to enter into this Discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method And for the danger of Confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A Well then to your Question concerning Religion Inasmuch as I told you that Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Common-wealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not Established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no obedience from the Laws of Men but because men can never by their own Wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and Commanded to be Observed nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiess in some humane Authority or other So that the Question will be Whether a man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his Duty to God and the King to rely upon the Preaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of a Stranger or upon the Voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that point for there is none that Preach here or any where else at least ought to Preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Sovereign Power So that if the King give us leave you or I may as lawfully Preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle for in the Church of Rome the principle Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious to be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to be false which is the Faith that they require I could name a great many more such Points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the Goodness and Wickedness of all Actions by their Congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Phylosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writingâ— B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who i◠〈◊〉 had Power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be not right Unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or as the Presbyterians doe to have a right from God immediately to Govern the King and his Subjects in all points of Religion and Manners if they do you cannot doubt but that if they had Number and Strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to attain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a System of the present Morals written by some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such an one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading the Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way And yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them that were the most dilligent Preachers of the late Sedition were to be tried by it they would go near to be found Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches His Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgment of him is his Essence and his Attributes and in believing of his Word his Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those Seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of Holy Scripture received for Câ—nonical in England B. They receive the Word of God but 't is according to their own Interpretation A. According to whose Interpretation was it received by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to God's Will Did any of them nay did any Man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandments which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their Preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all Men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damned and for their Preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to God's revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought it so it was not Disobedience but Error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisy hath this great prerogative above other Sins that it cannot be accused A. Another Duty he sets down is to Honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty I think as well as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have Gods House free from profanation to have Tithes duly paid to have the Sabbath day kept Holy the Word Preached and the Lords Supper and Baptism duely Administred But is not the keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to
of Rome And in the Doctrine of Aristotle they made use of many Points As First the Doctrine of separated Essenses B. What are separated Essenses A. Separated Beings B. Separated from what A. From every thing that is B. I cannot understand the Being of any thing which I understand not to Be But what can they make of that A. Very much in Questions concerning the Nature of God and concerning the Estate of Mans Soul after Death in Heaven Hell and Purgatory by which you and every Man knows how great Obedience and how much Mony they gain from the Common People whereas Aristotle holdeth the Soul of Man to be the first giver of Motion to the Body and consequently to it self they make use of that in the Doctrine of Free Will what and how they gain by that I will not say He holdeth forth that there be many things that come to pass in this World from no necessity of Causes but meer Contingency Causalty and Fortune B. Me thinks in this they make God stand Idle and to be a meer Spectator in the Games of Fortune for what God is the cause of must needs come to pass And in my Opinion nothing else but because there must be some Ground for Justice of the Eternal Torment of the Damned perhaps it is this That mens Wills and Propensions are not they think in the hands of God but of themselves And in this also I see something conducing to the Authority of the Church A. This is not much nor was Aristotle of such Credit with them but that when his Opinion was against theirs they could slight him whatsoever he says is impossible in Nature they can prove well enough to be possible from the Almighty Power of God who can make Bodies to be in one and the self same Place and one â—ody to be in many Places at the same time if the Doctrine of Transubstantiation require it though Aristotle deny it I like not the Design of drawing Religion into an Arts whereas it ought to be a Law And though not the same in all Countries yet in every Country indisputable nor that they teach it not as Arts ought to be taught by shewing first the meaning of their Terms and then deriving from them the truth they would have us believe Nor that their Terms are for the most part untâ—lligible though to make it seem rather want of Learning in the Reader than want of fair dealing in themselves they are for the most part Latin and Greek words â—ryed a little the point towards the Native Languages of the several Countries where they are used But that which is most intollerable is That all Clerks are forced to make as if they believe them If they mean to have any Church Preferment the Keys whereof are in the Popes Hands and the Common People whatsoever they believe of those subtile Doctrines are never esteemed better Sons of the Church for their Learning There is but one way there to Salvation that is Extraordinary Devotion and Liberality to the Church and readiness for the Churches sake of it be required to fight against their Natural and Lawfull Sovereigns B. I see what use they make of Aristotles Logick Physick and Metaphysickâ— But 〈…〉 not yet how his Politicks can serve their turn A. Nor I It has I think done them no Good though it â—as done us here much hurt by Accident for mâ—n grown weary at last of thâ— Insolence of the Priests and examining the 〈…〉 Doctrines that were put upon them began to search the sense of the Scriptures as they are in the Learned Languages and consequently Studying Greek and Latin became acquainted with the Democratical Principles of Aristotle and Cicero and from the Love of their Eloquence fell in â—ove with their Politicks and that more and more till it grew into the Rebellion we now talk of without any other advantage to the Roman Church but that it was awakening to us whom since we broke out of their Net in the time of Henry 8. they have continually endeavoured to recover B. What have they gotten by teaching of Aristotles Ethicks A. It is some advantage to them that neither the Morals of Aristotle nor of any other have done them any 〈◊〉 nor us any good Their Doctrine have caused a great deal of Dispute concerning Vertue and Vice but no knowledge of what they are nor any method of attaining Vertue nor of avoiding Vice The end of Moral Philosophy is to teach men of all sorts their Duty both to the Publick and to one another They Estemate Virtue partly by a Mediocrity of the Passions of Men and partly by that that they are praised whereas it is not the much or little praise that makes an Action Verâ—â—ous but the Cause nor much or little Blame that makes an Action Vitious but its being unconformable to the Laws in such men as are subject to the Law or its being uncoâ—â—ormable to Equity or Charity in all men whatsoever B. It seems you make a difference between the Ethicks of Subjects and the Ethicks of Sovereigns A. So I do The Vertue of a Subject is comprehended wholly in obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth To obey the Laws is Justice and Equity which is the Law of Nature and consequently is Civil Law in all Nations of the World and nothing is Injustice or Iniquity otherwise then it is against the Law likewise to obey the Law is the Prudence of a Subject for without such obedience the Commonwealth which is every Subjects Safety and Protection cannot subsist And though it be Prudence also in private men justly and moderately to enrich themselves yet craftily to withhold from the Publick or defraud it of such part of the Wealth as is by Law required is no sign of Prudence but of want of knowledge of what is necessary for their own defence The Vertues of Soveraigns are such as tend to the maintenance of Peace at Home and to the Resistance of Forreign Enemies Fortitude is a Royal Vertue and though it be necessary in such private men as shall be Soldiers yet for other men the less they dare the better it is both for the Commonwealth and for themselves Frugality though perhaps you will think it strange is also a Royal Vertue for it increases the publick stock which cannot be too great for the Publick Use not any man too sparing of what he has in trust for the good of others Liberality also is a Royal Vertue for the Commonwealth cannot be well serv'd without Extraordinary Diligence and Service of Ministers and great Fidelity to their Soveraign who ought therefore to be incouraged and especially those that do him service in the Wars In summ all Actions or Habits are to be esteemed Good or Evil by their Causes and Usefulness in reference to the Commonwealth and not by their Mediocrity nor by their being Commended for several men praise several Customes and that which is vertue with one is blam'd by