Pagan or Apostata which is farder of more strange vnto vs then an heretike is HER. Then haue you lost muche labor CATH why so HER. what haue you done al this while but gone about to proue that he whiche denieth directlie hut one article of the faith is wors then that heretike which directly denieth them all together And now ye sey there is none such CATH So I sey for suche an heretike was and is but in cace supposed wherof doest thou not see what foloweth HERE What. CATH Euen this that he which directly deuieth but one article of the faith is farre wors then is a Pagan or Apostata For when he is wors as it is proued then the other is which directly denieth them all And none directly denieth them all but other a pagan or apostata it muste nedes followe that he is wors then any of them both HERE I praie you what call ye apostata CATH He that hath bene once a christen man and yet hath vtterly forsaken the religion of christ ageyn and is gone clene awaie to the pagans and foloweth them HERE Trow ye ther be any such CATH Ther is no doubt of that HERE Then ye graunt that he and suche as he is denieth Christ with a part wordes directly CATH What els HERE Then he denieth him euen ware and wittingly CATH No trewly for be thou right well assured ther is no man liuinge that wolde denie Christ directly if he wist and were euen ware therin what he denieth For so ware is he what Chryste is which denieth hym directly as he is ware what the whole faith is which denieth all that directlie And so ware is he what the whole faith is which denieth all that directly as he is ware what one article of it is which denieth directly but that alone and that alone doth he not know nor so muche as beleue nother For suer it is that if he dyd he wolde neuer deny it no more therfore doth he know or beleue the whole saith nor Christ hym self nother which denieth both him and it directly altogether what warnesse or wittingnes therfore is there here more in the one then in the other also there can no man be an heretike but because he denieth at the least as I sayd some one article of the faith or other And that wolde he neuer do but because he beleueth vtterly that it is no parte of the fayth at all wherof it folowith clerly that if he knew it were he wolde neuer denie it Therfore looke what lacke both of knowledge and also of beleue he hath in one article whiche directly denieth but that alone euen the very same hath he in both which denieth twaine And also in each of them likewise hath he which denieth three And so forth after the same sorte from one to an other vntil it come to him which directly denieth Christ and all together Therfore wheÌ„ he that directly denieth Christ al together hath no more faith or knowlege of hym or it then hath he of that one article which directlie denieth but that same one alone what more warely or wittingly doth the one then the other but euen both ignorantly together And besyde this when the greatnesse of fayth may be such as is of it selfe sufficient and able to houlde and kepe who so euer haue it from the denying of Christ in euery condition And when it is suer also that the very knowlage of him is therto much more able then that is How clerly doth it follow therof that who so euer denieth hym directly neuer doth it ware and wittingly wherfore notwithstanding this or any thing els which thou haste hitherto sayd to the contrary I will yet say as I saide because the trewth is so in dede that as euell is he which directly denieth but one article of the faith alone as is he which directly denieth Christ him self and all together as euill I say not in this or that respect but vtterly in euery condicion And in diuerse caces as I haue declared vnto the also much wors both toward hym selfe and other also This differens betwene them only except that the contrary remaineth in the grosse ignorant iudgement of the commune sorte The cause wherof I tolde the before as it is in dede euen to be this that they are able to see and perceue as they do the whole euil of the one and in comparison therof obscurely so smal a parte of the other that some taketh it more some lesse sum very little sum no euil at al. Cap. 38. HERE Sir the daie ye may see is farre spente and I haue yet a mile or twaine to go CATH A now I perceue thow lackest matter or els thou art wery of so muche talke HERE Our talke hath lasted a great while CATH That is long of the for if thou woldest haue bene content with enough it had ben done long eare this But neuerthelesse to make an ende with all Thou shalt haue my frendly aduise and counsaill not only wel to remember what I haue said vnto the concernyng the miserable state of this vnfeithfull and peruerse generation But also farder to consider of what condicion and properte it is of which so long as it may endure neuer seaseth to study striue conteÌ„d feight agenst that which euer dyd and euer shal geue it the ouerthrow and preuail ageinst it Math. 16. accordiÌ„g to this promise of christ Porte inferi non preualebunt aduersis eam that is to say the gatê of hel shal not preuaile ageinst it HERE Ageinst what CAT. Ageinst the holy catholike church the pillare and stabilite of trewth 1. Timo. 3. as saint Paule doth cal it of the which trewth it is also written Super omnia vincit veritas Trewth preuaileth aboue al thingê yet not with standing al the ould experience herof this peruerse generacion according to ther accustomed properte nothing fearing the losse and casting awey of them selues hath sturred vp as all men knowith ther damnable warre ageinst this pyllare and stabilitee of trewth euen nowe in our tyme ageine as it hath done oft before euen to ther own destruction for such doctrine of late thei haue here brought in and taught as thei neuer were nor yet are nor neuer shal be able to defend by any kind of thing only secular power except as it hath apered manyfestly all redy For before they gate that of ther side ther was nother holy scripture nor ould auncient holy fathers nor yet any scholasticall lerning that is to saie any dewe and perfit order of reason that could help or make any thing for them But of the other side when they came once to power and might as they dyd vse that as they liste they were then so safe say al men what they wold that it was neither holy scripture nor nothinge els that coulde preuaile ageinst them for what so euer argument came in ther handê they wold be suer to
this it dothe yet appere that one article of the feithe maie haue more or lesse of trewthe then an other hath CATH No not so nother for the trewthe is not seied as I tolde the before to be other more or lesse for any thynge that is in it selfe but onely in respecte of and for the numbre of thynges wherin it is and wherof it is had Because that same numbre of thynges wherin it is and wherof it is had is in owre knowlage somtime more and somtime lesse And for that cause it is seide to bee more or lesse and for nothynge els For when it is seide that a man knoweth more of the trewthe to daie then be did yesterdaie it is not properly to be vnderstande and taken that he knoweth more trewthe but the truthe of more matter or of mo thynges to daie then he knewe yesterdaie and not more of the trewth it selfe whiche can not be other more or lesse And beside this although more or lesse of trewth maie be seide in respecte of the beyng therof in mannes knowlage by reason of the comyng and goyng of thingê to and fro as thexperience therof doth declare yet it can not be so seide in any other kynde of thynges which haue no suche actiuite or capacite of vnderstandynge or discernynge one thynge from an other as the priuilege of mannes nature hath And therfore all this maketh nothynge for thy purpose HERE it is no maruell as ye do handell it Cap. 16. CATH So longe as I handill it acording to truth there is no faute to be founde therin And therfore although thou hast driuen it of very loÌ„ge yet it maie this very well appere that it is nother vaine nor superfluous that learned men take with theim in their disputacions many rules and principles of trewthe to conducte eyde and kepe the dewe order of reason from all deuiacion and errour vntill it come as it were to the porte and finall conclusion of that whiche therby is intended for as a man hauynge a farre longe and a strange iourney to trauaile had nede some tyme of sondrie guides because it maie chaunce one whiche can conducte hym twentie myles can not yet guide hym three score by reason his knowlage of that waie extendeth not so farre and therfore must nedes be had an other and perchaunce diuerse moe after as the case requireth euen so mans witte and reason hauynge vrgente occasion to serche and seeke trewthe in suche necessary thynges as kepeth it veraie secret and farre from his knowlage hath much nede of certain and sondrie suche guides as are for that purpose moste conuenient and necessarie that is to wit diffinicions distinctions respectes and diuerse other lyke rules of in fallible trewthe to leade and conueie it directely from one thynge to an other vntill it come there where it obteineth the same it desyreth And though there bee therin none other sought nor yet founde but euen the veraie same trewthe whiche was had before in many thynges yet is it not laboured in vayne nor without neede nother because it was hidde and not hadde before in that one thynge wherein it was perchaunce more expediente to bee had then in diuerse and many other thinges beside Wherfore when no man can come to trewthe but by the wey and meane of trewth for trewth will in no wise be obteyned or towched but by the way and meane of it selfe why doest thou thinke it so straunge a matter that men labour therin so sore for the same which they haue alredy that is to saie for the same trewth in one thinge whiche they haue alredy in an other when the trewth of one thing is the way and meane to come as I sayde by the trewth of an other for otherwise it will not be had Wherfore now I suppose thou art in this cace sufficiently answered Cap. 17 HERE Sir let that waie as it maie here after for I dout not but ye will yet graunte me this that blacke and white as in ynke and paper are two distincte and contrarie colours CATH Agreed HERE Then if there be no more no lesse nor none other but euen the very same trewth in the blacke that is in the white and the same in the white that is in the blacke why shulde it not be as trewe to saie the blacke is white and the white blacke as it is to say the blacke is blacke and the white is white if there be as you say but one indifferente trewth of them bothe CATH There is no more in dede but yet because the selfe same one trewth whiche doth verifie the blacke to be blacke and the white to be white is also as well in the difference of both those colours and so doth verifie the same likewise as it is in eache and both the colours them selues it doeth therfore vtterle forbid it so to be saide as thou speakest it because if thou say the blacke is white or the white blacke The trewth of the difference betweue them is clerely ageinst the which trewthe is al one in al three as it is and must nedes be in all other thinges likewise beside HERE Then will I leue all these kindes of thingê and go to the very scripture which in this cace is directly ageinst you CATH How so Cap. 18. HERE haue you not redde in the psalter Psal 〈◊〉 wher this is written Quoniam diminute sunt veritates á filiis hominum that is to saie trewthes ar minished from the children of men or trewthes are falen awey from the children of men Here ye se it speaketh not of trewth singularly but of trewthes in the pluraln umber wherin is conteined many which can not be without diuersitee this is therfore clene ageinst your saieng CA. To this I will first answere the with the wordê of Saint Austen and afterward as I can beside For saint Austen vpon the same text doth say this trewth is one with the which holy soules are illustrate but because there be he saith many soules in theÌ„ ther may be said many truthes as in glasses appereth many images of one face Here thou maist well perceue by saint austen that although ther may be said many truthes and that by reason of the diuersite of thingê wherin it is yet ther is but one trewth for all that For doest thou not knowe that as one thinge maie haue diuerse and sondry names so maie diuerse and sondry thinges haue one name HERE As how CATH Breade drinke fire water c. are eache but one thing and yet hath eyther of them almost so manny sondry names as ther be sondry languages wherin thei are vsed to be spoken of neuerthelesse the diuersitee of the names doth not chaunge the vnitee or simplicitee of the thing nor the vnitee or simplicitee of the thing the diuersitee of the names And againe of the other side thou maist easly finde some wher as in some towne or parishe twentie men of one name yet
what price corne shall be the nexte yere HERE I muste nedes thinke so CATH And whie HERE Because this deniall is of a thyng certaine manifest and directely ageyn the perfite knowlage of the deniar where as the other is but of a thynge incertaine contingent casuall and to the deniar but coniecturall wherfore it can not be suche a faute to denie that I knowe but coniecturally as it is to denie that I knowe moste perfectely as I knowe the fire to be hotte CATH Then to denie the fyre to be hotte is worthy more blame then the other is HERE It must nedes CATH And yet thou seist it is not damnable HERE No. CATH Therfore sith it maie this apere that trewthe bindeth not lyke nor so in all thynges but that as thou doest graunt thy selfe the deniall therof in some thynge is damnable and in some thynges not And clere it is that the damnable daunger and dammage therof consisteth not in thynges contigent and casuall nor yet in thynges more certain and natural but only in thinges concernyng our feithe whiche are diuine and spirituall how clerely maketh it ageinst this that thou seiest who so euer denieth the trewthe of any maner of thynge is as well an heretike as he is whiche denieth the trewthe of any article of the feithe because the one denieth no more no lesse nor none other but euen the same trewth whiche the other dothe This thou maiest perceiue can not folowe For it is not the deniall of trewthe onely that maketh an heretike but it is the deniall therof in suche or suche a thynge and that of our feithe onely and not in euery or any other thynge beside our feithe Cap. 21. HERE Syr I seid not as ye take it but I seid this that so it muste nedes folowe of this your seyng that there is no more no lesse nor none other trewth in any one thyng then there is in any other or in the whole multitude of thynges all together CATH I wolde graunt as muche and the same my selfe if trewth behaued it selfe in euery thynge a lyke as thou diddest thinke and take it at the firste but nowe because thou maiest right well perceiue howe muche thou wer therin deceiued the trewth therfore beyng as I saide but euen one in all thynges dooeth yet behaue it selfe so in tharticles of the feithe that the deniyng therof in any one of them maketh no lesse than an heretike in dede And further ageyne after an other sorte it behaueth it selfe so in such certaine and naturall thynges as be apparent and sensible that the deniynge therof in some of them maketh a wilfull and a weâ—warde foole but yet no heretike for all that because there is in it no perell of damnacion And finally it behaueth it selfe so in thinges contingent and casuall that the deniyng therof in them maketh little or no faute at all and this diuerse behauiour of truth in diuers thynges is not without reason and good cause whie For in the firste case it committeth it selfe onely to the perpetuall helthe and welthe of mannes sowle In the seconde case to the temporall necessite of this lyfe and exercise of mannes witte and reason And in the thirde and laste case onely to the libertee of mannes opinion In whiche three the deniall therof can not be of one degre but of diuers And therfore of so farre vnlyke parell and ieoperdie as there is difference betwene eternall daÌ„nacion in some case no penaltee wherfore it is plaine that the deniall of trewth is not hereticall but wherin it behaueth it selfe only to the helth and welth of mans soule and that is not in thinges as I sayd contingent and casuall Nor yet in thinges of any cource naturall but onely in thinges theologicall that is to saie in thinges diuine and spirituall Now therfore tell me where are all thy sore obiections be cum which thou hast hitherto made ageinst the pure inuinsible vnite and simplisitee of trewth wherin thou hast caused a much more wast of time thou neded by a great deale And al to excuse colour and hide the most miserable stat of an heretike which when thou hast all done will yet appere and aske the no leue For when the articles of the feith are diuerse and many And the trewth of them all but one as thou maist now perceue thy selfe how can this be auoided but he that denieth the same one denieth the trewth of them all together when they both eache and all together haue no more no lesse nor none other but euen the same one as it is declared and proued vnto the before For els how commeth it thus to passe that the deniall of one article shuld purchase damnacion rather then the graunt and confession of all the reste shulde purchase saluacton It semeth much more reason that the graunte and confession of many shulde be more able to helpe and succoure then the deniall of one shuld hurte and hinder being as they are of like and equall power yet because in this cace it is farre otherwise then so tel me why doth one denied lese more then all the other graunted can get or saue HERE I wolde knowe that of you CATH Trewly there is none other whie but onely because the trewth of them all is perfite and whole in the same one which is denied And therfore the rest can not helpe in whom there whole and onely trewth is so refused and to this it maie well be applied 1 Corin. 5. whiche tholy apostle Saint Paule doth say Modicum fermentum to tam massam corrumpit that is to saie a litle leuen chaungeth the tast of the whole lumpe of dow wherof hath risen as I suppose this olde and very trewe prouerbe one vice destroieth many vertues And why so few as one but onely because the perfection and vnitee of trewth which is not onely in all vertues whole together but also in each and euery one vertue by it selfe alone is refused and contemned in the committing of any one mortall vice that chaunceth to fall in man And therfore because in vices there is multiplicitee of errour and contrariwise in vertues very simplicitee of trewth when so euer any one vertue is contemned all the rest can not helpe because in that one ther whole perfection and indiuisible trewth is cleane despised This the holy scripture dothe well confirme which doth saie Iaco. 2. Quicumque totam legem seruauerit offendat autem in vno factus est omniuÌ„ reus that is to say who so euer doth kepe the whole lawe and offendeth but in one parte he is yet made giltie of all together Now therfore content thy selfe with enough and take this for an infallible trewth as I tolde the before and now is sufficiently proued that who so euer denieth any parte of the faith denieth therin the trewth of all the whole And who so euer denieth the trewth of all the whole feith denieth the trewth of Christ And who
the vnitee of the name doeth not chaunge the diuersitee of the persons nor the diuersitee of the persons the vnitee the name And euen so is it likewise as I tolde the before betwene the vnitee or simplicite of trewth and the diuersite of thinges wherin it is For as the simplicite of trewth doth not alter or change the diuersite of thinges wherin it is So the diuersite of thingê doth not alter or chaunge the simplisite of the truth which is in them Therfore truth in how many thingê so euer it be is yet as saint Austen saith but one al though of the commune sort for the causes afore said it be otherwise taken HE. yea but yet that commune sort doth so take it as the scripture speaketh it CATH Nay thou maist say this that the scripture speaketh it euen as they do take it for that the scripture doth so speake it is not the cause why they so take it but that they so take it is the cause why the scripture doth so speake it for to whom saiest thou dothe the scripture speake it HERE To whom but to men CATH Therfore euen after the commune maner and capacite of menne it speaketh it And none other wise wherin it doth not there teache any pluralitee nor yet singularite for it dothe but showe after the maner of mens speaking what state the children of men are in And proueth nothinge els wherfore this text maketh nothing for thy purpose Cap. 19. HERE Sir will ye geue me leue to talke my minde a while CATH Spare not HERE Then if there be as you say no more no lesse nor none other but euen the very same one single and simple trewth not onely in all and euery singular article of the faith but also in all and euery other thing and thinges what so euer they bee beside this muste iustly folowe that who so euer denieth the trewth of any one thing whether it be of the fayth or not of the faith denieth therin no lesse then the trewth of all and euery thing that is For when you wil haue it nedes followe that he whiche denieth the trewth of any one article of the fayth denieth therin the trewth of all the whole because there is ye saie no more no lesse nor none other trewth in all the whole then there is in eache and euery parte thereof It muste nedes folow likewise that he whiche denieth the trewth of any other maner of thinge denyeth therin the trewthe bothe of all the fayth and also of all other thinges what so euer they be beside Wherfore sithe there is no man an heretike but be cause he denieth the trewth of some part of the faith And ageyne because the very same trewthe whiche he denieth if it be as you say is in all and euery other thing beside it muste also neds folowe that who so euer denyeth the trewthe of any other thing is also an heretike euen lykewise as well as he because he denyeth no more no lesse nor none other but euen the verie same trewth whiche the heretike dooeth denie And yet farder because there is all moste no man but some tyme he denieth the trewthe of one thynge or an other Wherin because they dooe all denie by your sayenge none other but euen also the same trewth which an heretike doth denie howe can this be auoided but that all other men bee heretikes lykewise euen as well as he CATH And doest thou beleue that to be trewe HERE Nay syr nor no man els I thinke CATH Howe then HERE Marie this by the manifeste falsitee of this conclusion I doe perceiue the falsitee of the posicion wherof it foloweth CATH Whiche is that HERE Euen this that ye sey trewthe is no more no lesse nor none other in euery singular thynge by it selfe then it is in theim all euen hole to gether whiche as ye maie nowe see can not be trewe CATH Arte thou at that poynte ageyn nowe HERE who can be otherwise when it dooeth here so plainly appere Cap. 20. CATH Howe so euer thou makest it appere to thy selfe yet it appereth not so to any man els that foloweth reason for did not I tell the before that trewth whiche is but one and not diuerse doothe yet diuersely behahaue it selfe in diuerse thynges As I declared vnto the so farre as the case did then require HERE What of that CATH I shall tell the what because I see the herein so curious and insaciable that thou leuest nothynge vnsought so farre as thy wit will serue the which maie seme to make for thy purpos thou shalte yet vnderstande this muche farder that all maner of thynges Wherin the trewthe is as aforesaide maie be deuided in to these three sundrie sortes that is to wit one contingent and casuall an other more certayne and naturall And the thirde diuine and spirituall And therfore in these three sortes the trewthe behaueth it selfe so diuersely that in thynges contingent and casuall it maie be denied without any danger or perill at all as if thou and I shulde nowe contende whether the turke be at Constantinople or no if thou sey ye and I naie or I ye and thou naie the one of vs bothe denieth the trewthe playne Also if thou seie the price of graine will not fall but rise before the yere come aboute And I seie of the other side that it will not rise but fall if it doe either the one or the other the one of vs bothe denieth the trewthe lykewise And so in all other thynges of that sorte what so euer thei be yet what parell hurte or daungier canst thou fynde herin when trewthe in this kynde of thyngê behaueth it selfe to all men for diuers causes so indifferently that thei maie therin graunte or denie accordyng to their opinions and yet not offende therin Ageine in thynges whiche are more certeine naturall the trewth of as many as are vnknowne leueth it selfe to the same libertee of iudgement as it dothe in thynges contingent and casuall but of the reste whiche be manifeste and well knowne the trewthe can not be denied of suche as dothe knowe them as by exaumple who can denie the fyre to be hote no man I thinke excepte he were out of his wit HERE Yes syr for a man maie denie the fyre to be hote if he will although he knowe the trewthe of it neuer so well CATH If he wolde so doe what faute were that seiest thou HERE Suche and the same faute as is the deniall of trewthe CATH yea in that thynge thou maiste saie and in suche other lyke but not as it is in euery thynge besyde For the deniall of trewthe in some thynges is as I doubte not but thou wilt confesse no lesse then a damnable faute HERE That is trewe CATH And dooest thou thinke it a damnable faute to denie the fyre to be hote HERE No not so CATH Yet thou thinkest it a more faute then to denie the trewthe of