to the Saints the whole lump of them if you will maintain your interest whole and intire have regard to the Saints small and great More could not have been said to perswade the people to do you good and in this you are in no wise inferiour to the most self-preaching Monks Pr. I scorn your words we are in nothing like your foolish Fryars Presbyterians are a serious and considering people who serve God according to his VVord in spirit and in truth whereas they mind nothing but their fopperies their superstitions and biggotteries whereby they have made Religion ridiculous Pa. Yes you would fain make the world believe that your new-devised Church-Government and every thing you speak and do is Scripture and according to the Spirit and truth and to hear you cry up your Orders and outward circumstances of divine Service one would think you had found Scriptural or spiritual Ceremonies But when all comes to all it is only this that you make Religion and Godliness to consist in rejecting that decent and instructing Order in Divine VVorship which the Primitive Church used and transmitted to us for to follow your irreverent and unseemly manner of worshipping God according to your own minds But that you also have done enough to make Religion ridiculous and fabulous too is easie to be seen by what I have said and shall say further the many intolerabiles ineptias you preached in your best-studied Sermons before your Parliament and printed afterwards as being excellent Discourses are sufficient proofs that your grave out-sides are inwardly full of emptiness or something else and I protest nothing can fully represent how ridiculous you have made the Publick Offices of Religion as being an eye-witness of it in your Private Meetings And had you not besotted your people by making them believe that what others do is all Popish and Autichristian but what you do your selves is Scripture and Gods Ordinance in purity they would hiss you out of your Desks or at least leave you there alone to enjoy your extravagant humours I leave it as a conclusion to be drawn from our whole Discourse when it is ended that you have made Religion ridiculous or rather that yours is a mock-Religion consisting altogether as to the exterior of it in new-made Prayers and Sermons spoken with a certain piteous tone and some affected faces and paroxisms of Zeal such as Mr. Cheynel was in when he told the Parliament 1646. p. 4. I arrest you this day at the Suit of the great Jehovah for a Debt of ten thousand talents nay millions of millions and over and above of High Treason against the three Persons of the ever-blessed Trinity and then he was in a Trance pag. 24. Ob saith he I feel I bless God I feel my self transported even beyond my self with raptures and extasies of love I could tell you of Christ-concerning-points and Soul-concerning-points of Parliament-repentance and Sacrament-repentance and Bed-repentance and Shop-repentance and many such new-coined phrases which are none of the least part of the powerfulness of preaching And I could tell you of a receipt which is as the extract of a Book called Parliament-Physick for a sick Nation Licensed by Mr. J. Cranford which makes a mock Physick or Divinity of all Evangelick and moral Vertues 1644. p. 112. A great deal of fopperies and futilities as you charge us with might be pickt out of the Sermons as you then printed and I doubt not but the Prayers were much after the same sort had they come out in print and if my Notes deceive me not what you preach now is not much better but I will not say any thing except what I have under your hands But this needs not be prosecuted directly any further Pr. What of all this These be personal failings I don't know how we are come insensibly to talk of things that are meerly practical whereas we was to speak of Doctrinal points I 'll give you but two or three instances more of the wide difference that is betwixt us and then let all the world be judge how impertinent you have been in charging Popery upon us And first you make outward splendor and prosperity to be a mark of the true Church whereas we teach according to Divine and Humane Histories that the Church hath her wanes as well as her fulness that sometimes she is fain to flee into the wilderness and that her Glory may be eclipsed without she doth cease to be the true and only Spouse of Christ Pa. Well I hope you love us never the worse for that agreement as you see is betwixt us in practical points for those be the most important But as for what you mentioned last I must confess that after the Kings and the Churches return to their right you taught E. Calamy 1662. p. 10. 14 That the Ark of God was in great danger and very near to be lost gray hairs saith Mr. Calamy are upon the Gospel I say not that the Gospel is dying but that it hath gray hairs I dare challenge any Scholar to shew me an example of any Nation that hath enjoyed the Gospel for an hundred years together now that gray hairs is to an hundred years is no wonder Well gray hairs are here and there and yet no man lays it to heart But then 't is to be observed that your Principles and Doctrines do change according to your condition according as five of your Brethren told us in their Apology to the Parliament Th. Gâ—od Ph. Nye Sy. Symp. Jer. Bur. W. Bridge p. 10. This principle we carried along with us not to make our present judgment and practice a binding Law to our selves for the future For in the days of your Power you then followed God and Providence every prosperous success of yours was a mark that yours was Gods Cause and you his beloved ones Behold God in the Mount cries Mr. Vicars at every advantage you had over the Kings party in his Jehovah-Jirch yea and your prosperity was a mark that you were destroying Antichrist Tho. Palmer in that Sermon 1644. dedicated to the Earl of Essex Epist Dedicat hath these brave expressions God hath put you in his own place God hath grac'd you with his own Name Lord of Hosts General of Armies God hath committed to your care what is most precious to himself precious Gospel precious Ordinances a precious Parliament a precious people God hath called forth your Exellency as a choice Worthy to be his General and the Champion of Jesus Christ to fight the great and last battel with Antichrist in this your native Kingdom So Mr. Caryl in a Thanksgiving Sermon for a Victory of yours Jef Caryl 1644. Divine Providence is a leading Cloud to this day it is ill to out-run Providence and it is as had not to follow it Many things that I have said before will clear it enough that you made your good success and prosperity an argument of
By way of DIALOGUE between a Papist Priest a Protestant Gentleman and a Presbyterian Divine The First Part. P. SIr your humble servant I come to wait you upon a double account to give you thanks for the Civilities I have heretofore received from you and to spend in the best Company I can that short time I am allow'd to stay in England G. I protest Master it grieves me that contrary to our inclination we should be forc'd to be thus severe against you for to secure the peace of the kingdom And were it not that your Religion stands in opposition to the good and peaceable intentions which I believe some of you may have I do protest that I my self would heartily intercede for your staying and living quietly with us However you are very welcome P. Sir I know you to be of a very sweet nature by a long experience and I will requite your kindness by praying heartily for your conversion to the true Catholic Faith G. Master I thank you for your good will but I believe if your Prayers be heard I shall never be of your Religion for if it hath the truth yet therewith ye have mixt so many false Doctrins particular to your own Church that it can never be justly call'd The true Catholic Faith P. Sir you speak as you have been taught but did you well understand those things as you call false Doctrines I am sure you would be of another mind G. Well we are entred ab abrupto upon a Subject that will help us to pass away the time therefore I desire you my good Friend for our old acquaintance sake to let me know positively the truth of what your Church believes in the chiefest things we differ from you as it is taught and recorded by your most approved Doctors P. I will with all my heart as far as I am able and that you may not think I disguise any thing or speak my private Opinions I will bring the very words of the Council of Trent or Bellarmin or Stapleton as the Authentic Proofs of the truth of what I shall say ask you what you have a mind to know G. First let me enquire of what you believe concerning the Holy Scripture for we make it the Ground and the Rule of our Faith being persuaded that it conteins all things necessary to Salvation P. We are much of another mind for we hold that the Scripture doth not expresly contein all that is necessary to be believed or to be done i.e. that its Doctrine is defective in what concerns Faith and Morality Nos asserimus Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 4. c. 3. in Scripturis non contineri expresse totam doctrinam necessariam sive de fide sive de moribus G. That 's very plain and I believe more than you dare say to those you endeavour to make your Proselytes P. Nay Sir before we proceed I must tell you that I expect you would render me like for like and cite the words of Cranmer or Calvin or whatever Authors they are you have your Doctrine from that it may be seen which of us hath the better Authorities for our several Opinions pray who taught you that all things necessary to salvation are contein'd in Scripture G. Our Blessed Saviour who approved the Jews opinion of believing that by the Scriptures they might have eternal life and therefore commanded them to search them John 5.39 Search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testifie of me And more expresly S. Paul who affirms that they are able to make us wise unto salvation 2 Tim. 3.15 c. being inspir'd by God These two Texts are of more weight with me than the contrary affirmations of twenty Cardinals And as for the Authors of our Religion we own none besides Christ and his blessed Apostles Those Doctrines of our Church which are positive are plainly contein'd in Scripture and the best Records of the Primitive Church and are own'd and believ'd by you also and the negatives which are against your Innovations can neither be disprov'd by Scripture nor the Antient Fathers but are generally included in the positive All this is to be seen in the learned labours of many of the Reformed Doctors I will not make our Discourse so tedious as to rehearse what they have said upon that subject therefore I desire you to be contented with a few plain Scriptures which I will bring to authorize our denying those Articles of your Roman Faith we have rejected P. Well do so if you will but let me tell you that Scripture is not to be the judge of Differences in Religion 'T is the Pope and Council must decide all Controversies and declare the true sense of Scripture Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 3. Judicem dicimus veri sensus Scripturae omnium Controversiarum esse Ecclesiam id est Pontificem cum Concilio G. I don't believe it for I find that God sends his People to the Law and to the Testimony to examin the Doctrine of the Prophets Isa 8.20 and I hope the Gospel may as well have the Privilege that by it we should examin the Doctrin of the Pope Christ tells the Saducees that they cried because they knew not the Scriptures It is said in the Parable of Dives Mar. 12.24 Luke 16.29 They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them And it is recorded to the praise of the people of Berea that they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether those things were so Acts 17.11 In all these the Scripture is made Judge of Controversies and by it the Doctrin of S. Paul himself is tried and examined P. But for all that the Scripture is very obscure and harder to be understood than the Notions of Metaphysie Bellar. de Verbo Dei l. 3. c. 1. Certe si scientia Metaphysicorum difficilior quomodo non obscurissima erit Scriptura quae de rebus longe altioribus agit And if the People should read it it would do them more harm than good for 't would be an occasion of their falling into error about those Doctrines that concern Faith and a good Life Et ibid. l. 2. c. 15 Populum non solum non eaperet fructum ex Scripturis sed etiam caperet detrimentum acciperet euim facillime occasionem errandi tum in doctrina fidei tum in praeceptis vitae morum Therefore all men ought to follow the Decisions of Popes and Councils that they may be guided in the truth G. Nay I would have the people follow the judgment of the Church they live in but I would have them to make use of their Rationality to chuse the Communion of the purest Church according to the Word of God and if they have learning enough according to the four first General Councils and the Primitive Christians and not deny their Reason and the plain meaning of Scripture and
Durell speaks as if there was hardly any difference betwixt you and the Church of England Bonasius Vapul 1672. p. 80. It may be worth saith he the consideration of those who are in Authority whether they may not enjoy Ecclesiastical Preferments who differ from their Brethren only in some few points of Discipline for as to the Essentials of Discipline I am not so quick-sighted as to find that we disagree c. But if it be so the more wicked you who have made crimes and enormities of a few indifferent points of Discipline What was it the terderness oâ— your Consciences that made a few Ceremonies to be Popery and Antichristianism so that upon their account you must call upon the people in Sion to war against Babylon Either you are the greatest Cheats in the World or else you differ from your Church at least in those points wherein as I have shewn you come so near to us chuse you which you please As for your loving and honouring the reformed Churches beyond Sea and the first Reformators of this I find no such thing in your Books but rather that you lov'd and honour'd your selves far beyond them all Mr. Dury in his Sermon to the Parliament upon these words Depart ye c. Isai 52.11 is pretty plain in it p. 5. I chose these words saith he because the destruction of Babylon and the deliverance of the Church out of it is the great work which God intends to accomplish by the Gospel in these latter times and because of the relation wherein we do stand to it for I conceive that God is not only working out our deliverance to bring us out of Babylon at this time c. Where could you have been worse than in Babylon before the good men in King Edward the fixth's time had done any thing towards a Reformation So you may hear him say at the 25 pag. None of all the Magistrates or Ministers of other Nations have ever given such an answer to this Call to come out of Babylon as you and we of the Ministry and this people have done for we have undertaken the Cause in the full extent thereof therefore we are in this employment nearer unto God than any others and he is more interest in us and in Scotland than in any other Nation whatsoever Two Witnesses more I hope will make the thing credible Mr. Boden in his Sermon Revel 18.6 Reward her as p. 9. c. saith 'T is no wonder that our forefathers did little or nothing against the Beast and the Babylonians for their eyes were blinded they could not see to work much less to fight but that we having clear visions and full discoveries made of the Beast and her abominations should sit still and be careless and suffer her for ever to play her beastly pranks is a most deadly shame and stain unto us And Mr. Tho. Goodwin in his foresaid Sermon Others had had the honour in the first Age of reforming p. 52. and we had been like blear-eyed Leah yet since we have been abundantly the more fruitful of Saints faithful and chosen And indeed the truth is you went so far beyond all other Reformers that you might well despise them as having done their work very imperfectly to what you did Pr. I took you to be but a Priest but I doubt you are a Jesuite too for you can turn other mens words to what sense you please I believe those good men meant no such thing as the interpretation you give to their words But whether they did or no 't is nothing to us we pin our faith upon no mans sleeve if they have said or done any thing amiss we utterly disclaim it We own the Kings Supreme Authority and we own the Doctrine of the Church of England and to prove the contrary by particular mens words as you have endeavoured to do is altogether lost labour because their Opinions is not the Rule we follow So that all your Quotations evince nothing of what you intended and you well deserve to be laugh'd at for having taken such a huge deal of bootless pains in repeating other mens words Pa. Very well 't is but making up your mouth and wiping of it and looking very demure and then you have done nothing and so you think you can abuse the world everlastingly But stay Sir dear-bought experience hath taught us that your goodly words are little to be trusted and you have approved your selves such incomparable Jugglers that we will see what you tell us before we believe it In the highest of your Rebellion you were for the King forsooth much more now he reigns Th. Palmer was Minister of the Army raised for King and Parliament as he stiles himself in the Title of his Sermon 1644. Mr. Beech at the Siege of Basing was fighting for the King pag. 24. We honour the King we fight for him we resolve though it cost us our lives we will have his love and his presence again And John Arrowsmith before the House of Commons calls him his Dear Sovereign 1613. p. 13. They saith he that brought our King into this Civil War are a Generation of scornful men that laugh at our Builders as Sanballat and his Complices did at Nehemiah What is this thing as ye do will ye rebel against the King a Generation which can neither find in their hearts to afford a good word of advice to our Dread and Dear Sovereign c. But 't is more than probable that by a worse than Jesuitical Equivocation you meant only a notional King the workmanship of your deceitful Brains for so we find a cunning distinction between the King and the Kings Person Tho. Case in his Sermon to the Court-Martial on 2 Chron. 29.6 7. And Jehoshaphat said unto the Judges Take heed what ye do c Tell them That though they had not a Jehoshaphat to give them that charge in his personal capacity yet they had him in his political capacity So Robert Austin D. D. printed a Book intending to prove 1644. That by the Oath of Allegiance the Parliament was bound to take up Arms though against the Kings personal command for the just defence of the Kings Person Crown and Dignity So you might be sure by such means ever to be for him and have him of your side whatever you did for so Mr. Burroughs prov'd by the same art pag. 27. That his most Loyal Party was not fighting against the King but for the King for the preservation of true Regal Power in the King and his Posterity and to rescue him from the hands of evil men who were his greatest Enemies And he said pag. 57. That the Saints and most Religious had ventured their Lives Fortunes Children and all for the safety of the King One would have taken him then for a great Royalist but that there was an unlucky Equivocation in the case The Scripture saith he pag. 28. bids us to be