of the Divinity through Atheism since Examination and Doubt is a Spice of it But 't is not so GOD has plac'd his Mark in the World which is the Work of his Hands and by this divine Mark he imprints in Souls before all Doubts the Sentiment of his Divinity In like manner he has plac'd his Mark in his Church the most perfect work of his Wisdom By this Mark the Holy Ghost makes the true Church known to the Children of GOD and this so particular Character which distinguishes her from all other Assemblies gives her so great an Authority that without hesitating we admit before all Opinions not only the Holy Scripture but also all her sound Doctrin Thus are the Children of the true Church instructed those that are educated in a strange Church as soon as they perceive her waver in any part whatever of her Instruction ought to stretch forth their Arms to the Church which has reason never to waver because she has never vary'd nor waver'd and they find they ought to return into it because none should ever have gone out of it The Seventh REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's saying in his Relation that I appear'd embarrass'd in this part of the Dispute IT may now be judg'd whether I ought to be perplext about the Promise I made Mademoiselle de Duras to make Mr. Claude acknowledg a Moment in which by the Principles of his Religion a Christian had but an human Faith concerning the Truth of the Scripture How could I be embarrass'd about a thing which Mr. Claude acknowledg'd in the Conference and which he acknowledges still in his Relation thô he has weaken'd both my Proof and his own Confession 'T is true he cannot let go the Word Doubt but I pretended not to make his Tongue form this Syllable the Equivalent is sufficient for me 'T is an Excess great enough to reduce the Christian who is going to read the Holy Scripture to be uncapable of a Divine Faith To content ones self in this Condition with an human Faith is always too evidently to renounce Christianity I have then manifestly what I desir'd from Mr. Claude's Acknowledgment And if he says That the Faith he here speaks of excludes Doubt as resembling that which makes us believe there is a City call'd Constantinople or that there was heretofore a King nam'd Alexander the Great thô we know it but by Men This indeed is not enough for a Christian who ought to act by a Divine Faith but 't is still enough to conâ—ound Mr. Claude 〈◊〉 according to this Answer the Church would always have an Authority equal to that which all Mankind as I may say has when they unanimously depose concerning a sensible Fact Thus in what manner soever Mr. Claude explains to us 〈…〉 Faith the Victory of the Truth I asserted will remain secur'd by his Confession Since if he says his human Faith excludes Doubt he supposes in it an infallible Truth and if he say it leaves a Doubt he will in fine have pronounc'd these fatal Syllables he so much shun'd In a Cause so assur'd if I trembled for any thing but the Danger of those into whose Hearts I fear'd that either by reason of my own Weakness or their Prepossession I could not make the Truth sufficiently enter I ill understood the Truth I defended In the mean time because I said in the Recital of the Conference That at Mr. Claude's objecting to me the Greek Church and others I trembled thrô the Apprehension lest an Objection propos'd with â—o much Address and Eloquence might put a Soul in Peril Mr. Claude took this moment to make me appear vanquish'd Here says he it may with Truth be said That Monsr de Condom ' s Mind was seen not to be in its usual State and that the Liberty which is so natural to him sensibly decreas'd I may truly say in my turn That my Trembling whence this Advantage is drawn was interior and that I can scarce believe Mr. Claude could have perceiv'd it had I not my self sincerely related it in my Recital But what matter is it what was either the Effect or Cause of my Fear They shall say if they please That being put to a stand by Mr. Claude's Objection I would cover the Disorder into which I visibly fell by the Trembling I fain I had for the Salvation of a Soul that expected its Instruction from my Assistance I will own it if they please or rather not to ly I will let it pass without Opposition Let me have trembled before Mr. Claude provided that even in Trembling I spake the Truth I spake it They need only see what were my Answers and whether I drew not from Mr. Claude's Mouth the Acknowledgment I pretended After this the more I shall have trembled and the weaker I shall have been the more certain 't will be That 't was the Truth which kept me up The Eighth REFLECTION On another Proposition acknowledg'd by Mr. Claude in the Conference where is shewn the manner how all false Churches establisht themselves THere is a Part of the Conference which Mr. Claude passes over in four Words 'T is that where I shew him the horrible State of his Church which set it self up after the Example of all false Churches by separating from all the Christian Churches that were in the World and without finding any Church which thought as she did at the time of her Establishment So that she was not joyn'd by any Continuity either to the time that went before or to any Church which appear'd then in the World This Fact pass'd for evident and how short soever Mr. Claude has been in the Recital of this Part he says enough to shew That in acknowledging this important Fact he has only endeavour'd to cover the Shame of such a Condition by the Example of the Apostles when they separated from the Synagogue I will not repeat what I said on this Subject You have seen it in the Conference and Mr. Claude who relates but one Word of it does not oblige me to any new Exaplanation I shall only say That he gives a very false Idea of this part of the Dispute The Company says he was risen and the Conversation which continu'd yet some time became much more confus'd and we discours'd of divers things I know not why Mr. Claude will have our Conversation to have been confus'd it was not so in any part and 't was less so if it were possible in this than in the rest 'T is true we were risen and Part of the Company was withdrawn but Mr. Claude and I stood firm before each other Mademoisello de Duras seem'd to have redoubled her Attention and after so many Principles declar'd the Dispute became more quick and more concluding than ever If we spake of divers Matters it was not ramblingly and all tended to the same End It may be seen by reading it and if Credit will not be given to me in this behalf when
and to believe that they cease to be Pastors when they cease to be good People thô without Scandal this is the pernicious Doctrin of Wicleff which would put all the Church in Confusion Excepting this ill Sense which cannot be Mr. Claude's I grant him all he says for without doubt 't is not JESVS CHRISTs first Intent that there should be Ministers that are Deceivers this happens only thrô the Malice of the Enemy The Destinction of the Ministery is for true Believers JESVS CHRIST did not establish it to call into the Church Deceivers and Hypocrites who doubts it But nevertheless these Deceivers and these Hypocrites may be sufficiently of the Church to be lawful Pastors in it and the true Believers being to live to the end of the World under the Authority of this mixt Ministery he must then without examining whether the Ministers are good or evil shew us a Succession of them always manifest under which GOD has conserv'd his People The more I continue my Reading the more I find this Truth evidently declar'd For entring into the fourth Question I take good notice that Mr. Claude pretends there to shew that the Passages where JESVS CHRIST promises the Church to keep her always on the earth regard only the Society of true Believers but he forbears not always equally to own that this Church never ceases to be visible and that JESVS CHRIST has so promis'd I pretended to shew the visible Church in these words Vid. Sup. 7 8. seq Mat. xvi v. 18. Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it The Reasons I made use of to prove it may be seen Mr. Claude receives this Doctrin with its Proofs And he acknowledges that the Church which is spoken of in this Passage is in effect a confessing Church a Church which publishes the Faith a Church to which JESUS CHRIST has given an exterior Ministery a Church which uses the Ministery of the Keys and which binds and looses and which consequently has an Outside and a Visibility 'T is such a Church that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd to keep always on the earth Mr. Claude cannot suffer one to tell him that she ceases to be and thus she is always with all that Ministery which is essential to her which makes Mr. Claude conclude with me Vid. Sup. p. 9 10. c. that the Ecclesiastical Ministery shall last without discontinuance till the General Resurrection and to grant without difficulty that this Promise of JESVS CHRIST I will be always with you respects the Perpetuity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery Mat. xxviii v. 9. 20. JESVS CHRIST promises says he to be with the Church to baptize with her and to TEACH WITH HER WITHOUT INTERRUPTION EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD There shall then always be Teachers with whom JESVS CHRIST shall teach and true Preaching shall never cease in his Church But shall this Ministery last for ever so pure that none but good People shall be admitted to it We have seen that Mr. Claude pretends it not In effect there is no Promise of this perpetual Purity the Promise is that whatsoever the Manners of these Ministers may be JESVS CHRIST will always act always baptize and ALWAYS TEACH with them and the Effect of this Ministery thô mixt shall be such that under its Authority the Church shall be always visible not indeed says Mr. Claude with a distinct view which goes so far as to say Such and such are 〈…〉 which it notwithstanding CERTAIN and which goes so 〈…〉 say The true 〈…〉 to 〈◊〉 IN THAT EXTERIOR PROFESSION Let us not call if they will by the Name of the Church all that exterior Profession let us abstain from this Name since Mr. Claude is against it and like true reasonable and peaceable Christians let us endeavour to agree on the thing This exterior Profession which may be always 〈◊〉 and as I may say pointed to with the Finger is mixt of Good and Evil the Ministery which governs it is also mixt Mr. Claude agrees all this it may nevertheless be said Under this Ministery and in this exterior Profession are the 〈◊〉 Believers This is what we just now heard from the same Ministers Mouth If then according to his Doctrin the Society of true Believers subsists for ever and continues always visible on the earth if it may always be shewn in an exterior Profession and is visible only there as Mr. Claude says it not only follows that true Believers shall always be upon the earth but that this Profession mixt of Good and Bad where there true Believers are found where they are pointed to where they are markt shall be there also this is what we agree on with Mr. Claude But since all these Passages are dispers'd up and down his Answer see here one in which he has taken care to collect all together 'T is after his fourth Question and in the seventh Consequence that this Minister endeavouring to explicate the XXXI Article of the Confession of Faith where it is said that in our days and before the Reformation the State of the Church was interrupted distinguishes the State of the Church interrupted for a time from the Church which is never interrupted according to his Principles and thâ—s he defines the Church The Church says he is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of true Holiness under a Ministery which fâ—â—nishes her with the Alments necessary for the spiritual Life without depriving her of any of them We shall discover in its time the secret of these spiritual Aliments In the mean while 〈…〉 agree with Mr. Claude that the Church always subsist and always subsists visible since by his Definition she is nothing 〈◊〉 but the true Believers who MAKE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN TRUTH under the Ecclesiastical Ministery Behold an immoveable Foundation Let us see what we can build on it but before we build we are going to see the Objections fall The Twelfth REFLEXION Two of Mr. Claude's principal Objections resolv'd by his own Doctrin MR. Claude objects to me first Man Aus that I desire in vain to establish my Society compos'd of Good and Bad and its eternal Duration on these inviolable Promises of JESVS CHRIST Thou art Peter and I am always with you 'T is not says he of the Wicked that it can be said that Hall shall not prevail against them 'T is not with Wicked men and Hypocrites that JESUS CHRIST has promis'd always to be and these Promises respect none but true Believers Let us add according to Mr. Claude's Principles that if these Promises respect only true Believers they respect them at least in this Ministery and in this exterior Profession and the Objection will be at the same time resolv'd For in fine if the true Believers ought to be always shewn and always visible according to Mr. Claude in this
which the Holy Ghost has put in their Hearts with the Creed is not now in debate and 't is sufficient that we have seen in all the Baptiz'd a Belief of the Church which comes to them from GOD distinguisht from the Thought which comes to them from Men. This being so I affirm That to this Belief of the Church which the Holy Ghost puts in our Hearts with the Creed is fixt a firm Faith That we must believe this Church as certainly as the Holy Ghost to whom the Creed it self immediately joins her and that this Faith in the Church is the Cause the Believer never doubts of the Scripture I stopt a moment to ask whether I were understood Mr. Claude answer'd That he understood me perfectly And if it be so said I to him you ought to see the Inconvenience into which your Belief casts you and you ought also to see That I am not in the same by mine You not only say That we must not believe a false Church but that we must not even believe the true one without examining what she says and in this you speak against all other Christians Mademoiselle de Duras interpos'd saying in this place This is what must be answer'd by Ay or No. I said it indeed answer'd Mr. Claude and I did not stick to say it at first So much the better reply'd I. We shall soon see which of us two has Reason and in the clear State things have been put in by our reciprocal Discourses the Truth will soon appear on one side or other From the time you lay it down for certain That the Church even the true one may deceive us the Faithful cannot believe on the Churches sole Faith That the Scripture is the Word of GOD. He may believe it with an human Faith answer'd Mr. Claude but not with a divine Faith But human Faith reply'd I is always defective and doubting He doubts then whether the Scripture be inspir'd by GOD or no. Mr. Claude here pray'd me to remember what he had already said That he was not in Doubt but in Ignorance As a Man said he not skill'd in Diamonds being shewn one and askt whether he believes it to be good or bad knows nothing of it neither is he in Doubt but in Ignorance In like manner when a Master teaches some Opinion in Philosophy the Scholar who understands not yet what he means has no formal Doubt but is in a bare Ignorance So is it with those to whom the Holy Scripture is the first time given And I said I affirm That he doubts and that he who is not skill'd in Diamonds doubts whether that which is presented to him be good or bad and that the Scholar with Reason doubts of all his Master in Philosophy tells him till he sees it clear because he believes not his Master Infallible and by the same Reason he who believes not the Church Infallible doubts of the Truth of GODs Word which she proposes to him This is call'd Ignorance and not Doubt still said Mr. Claude And I made this Argument To doubt is not to know whether a thing be or not The Christian of whom we speak knows not whether the Scripture be true or no He is then in Doubt Tell me what is it to doubt but not to know whether a thing be or no To this there was no Answer but that this Christian did not in any manner doubt of the Scripture but was only ignorant of it But said I he is not like an Infidel who perhaps never heard any mention of it He knows That the Gospel of St. Matthew and St. Paul's Epistles are read in the Church as GODs Word and that none of the Faithful doubt it Can he believe with them as certainly as he believes GOD is That this Word is inspir'd by GOD You have said That he cannot make this Act of Faith He that cannot make an Act of Faith on an Article propos'd to him makes at least as I may so say an Act of Doubt Mr. Claude still answer'd That he was in a pure Ignorance And well let us leave contesting about Words He does not Doubt if you please but he knows not whether this Scripture be a Truth or a Fable he knows not whether the Gospel be an History inspir'd by GOD or a Tale invented by Men. He cannot then make an Act of Divine Faith upon this Point nor say I believe as GOD is that the Gospel is also from GOD. Do you not acknowledg That he cannot make this Act and that he has nothing but an human Faith He again freely confess'd That he knew nothing else Well Sir 't is enough In fine then there is a Point of Time when every Baptiz'd Christian knows not whether the Gospel be not a Fable This is given him to examin See to what we must come when we are set to examin after the Church We might discourse without end But we have said all that can be said on both sides and we should do nothing but begin again 'T is for every one to examin in his Conscience how he can maintain That a Baptiz'd Christian ought to have been a Moment without knowing whether the Gospel be a Truth or a Fable and that amongst other Questions which one may make in ones Life this also must be given him to examin It appear'd to me by the Countenance of Mademoiselle de Dwas that she understood 〈◊〉 I notwithstanding expected a little And Mr. Claude rose up Mademoiselle de Duras rose with us and coming to us said I could wish That before you broke up something might be said concerning the Separation The thing is done answer'd I. As soon as 't is certain That one cannot examin after the Church without falling into an insupportable Pride noâ— without doubting of the Gospel there is nothing more to be 〈◊〉 Every one need only consider whether he will doubt one Moment of the Gospel and also whether he finds himself capable to understand the Scripture better than all the Synods in the World and than all the rest of the Universal Church But since Mademoiselle desires some particular Instruction concerning the Separation I beseech you Sir give me a Moment more I shall propose to you essential Facts on which â—f I be not deceiv'd you must soon agree I ask you Sir Whether the Arians separated from the Church and whether their Sect when it appear'd was not new They did not said he separate from the Church they corrupted it He set himself to represent with a great deal of Exaggeration â—ow they drew with them the whole Church 'T is not so Sir said I You know That St. Athanasius St. Basil St. Gregory Nazianzen and many other Holy Bishops held for the Truth and that a great Body of People follow'd them You know That all the West and Rome it self notwithstanding the Fall of Liberius was Orthodox But let us leave all this said I to him in what Number soever they separated
Claude is oblig'd to acknowledge a Church always visible since the Church which is not visible is no Church and that according to the Definition Vid. Sup. p. 103. he has given us the Church is the true Faithful who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministery which furnishes her with the Aliments necessary for the Spiritual Life These Faithful then are not a Body in the Any since they make PROFESSION OF THE TRUTH under an Ecclesiastical Ministery always subsisting and that as we have seen there must be without any Interruption an exterior Profession of which it may be said There are the true Believers Thus 't is not sufficient to alledge at random to us conceal'd Believers they are oblig'd to shew us without Interruption first a visible Society of which may be said They are there 't is there they serve GOD in Spirit and Truth 't is there they confess the Gospel Nor will it be enough to shew us these Believers dispers'd they must secondly shew us them gather'd together under the Authority of an Ecclesiastical Ministery with preaching of the Word with the Administration of the Sacraments with the use of the Keys and all the Ecclesiastical Government By consequence they must shew us a Society of Pastors and People whence it follows in the third place that they must be able to name us these Pastors since the Succession of them is manifest To seek all this in the Pretended Reformed Church as it is now separated from the Roman Church that is from that Body of the Church which acknowledges the Roman Church and the Pope for its Head is what Mr. Claude does not so much as dream of 't is enough for him that to the time of the Pretended Reformed's Separation he finds all this in the Roman Church it self The true Believers were there as long as those that compos'd the Pretended Reformation were there when they went forth or were driven forth Vid. Sup. p. 46. they carry'd the Church with them as Mr. Claude said in the Conference This Discourse more like a Raillery than a serious Discourse is nevertheless that which is seriously held in the new Reformation Till the Separation of these new Reformed the Succession of the true Believers that is according to Mr. Claude of the true visible Church Man Ans q. 4. seq was perpetuated in the Roman Church and 't is since their Separation that she ceases to contain them Such is the Succession of the visible Church which Mr. Claude establishes in his Manuscript Answer till the Separation the true Faithful which the Roman Church contain'd after the Separation the Pretended Reformed which came forth of her Bosom But whence came their Pastors Were they also detacht with these pretended Believers from the Body of the Roman Church to perpetuate in the Church thus Reform'd the Ecclesiastical Ministery Ibid. In no wise Mr. Claude does not understand it so The Faithful detacht from the Roman Church all on a sudden depos'd all the Pastors which were before that is to say that before the Catholick Bishops and Priests with the Pope at their Head were the Pastors establisht by JESVS CHRIST for there must be such for the true Believers which they contain'd in their Unity in the Moment that the Reformation appear'd they were all on a sudden depos'd and the Ministery taken out of their Hands But what right had private persons thus all on a sudden and in one moment to dispossess all their Pastors 'T is because they are the true Believers Man Ans q. 4. seq to whom the Ministery appertains of right who might consequently dispose of it take it from some and give it to others Man Ans 4. q. towards the end We must not says Mr. Claude imagine the Succession of Pastors in this ordinary transmission which the Ministers make from one to another and which is call'd the exterior and personal Succession the Question is whether it may not sometimes happen that the Church that is the true Believers shall take her Ministery out of the hand of those who have too visibly abus'd it and give it to others This is the Question in general Cons 8 9 10. as Mr. Claude proposes it and the Application he makes of it in particular is That the Latin Prelates who enjoy'd the Ecclesiastical Ministery in the time of our Fathers and who were assembled in the Council of Trent having made Decisions of Faith incompatible with Salvation and having pronounc'd Anathemaes against these who submitted not to them the Pretended Reformed had Reason to regard these Prelates as Ministers who had stript themselves of the Ministery and to give it to other Persons They should then at least according to these Principles have expected the Decisions of Trent and since before these Decisions so many Churches separated from Rome had already given themselves Pastors the Reformation will have begun by a manifest Usurpation But let us not so much press Mr. Claude and without insisting rigorously on the Council of Trent let us desire him only to mark us some day a little near the Time in which he will permit the true Believers to have continu'd under the Ministery of the Roman Church And in the mean time let us content our selves to observe this new Doctrin that it may happen that all the Pastors of the Church dispossest all on a sudden may become in one moment private men and that without their establishing any other Pastors to succeed them the true Believers in no wise Pastors but private persons separated from every Church actually existing may of their sole Authority confer the Ministery on others establish them ordain them instal them This is what Mr. Claude afterwards farther explicates by these words that these Pastors before alone in Function are of right depriv'd and the Ministery return'd of right to that part of the Society Cons 10. in which are found the true Believers that is to say the Pretended Reformed separated from the Roman Church and from every Church then subsisting in the world What an Authority and Privilege does the Separation give Such is Mr. Claude's Doctrin if I change if I exaggerate if I diminish let him without delay publish his writing to confound me But if this be his Doctrin I conjure our Reformed to consider what Prodigies of Doctrin must be taught to defend their Reformation For first where do they read in what Gospel in what Epistle in what Writing of the Old or New Testament that all the Pastors of the Church should in a moment fall from their Chair and become private persons whom one might and ought freely disobey Has JESVS CHRIST hidden this great Mystery from us and would he not have precaution'd us against this horrible Temptation of his Church But this is not all after he has shewn us in the Scripture this universal Fall of all the Pastors he must also find there this Ministery return'd of right
not She did not entirely lose her Visibility or her Ministery GOD forbid See how he cries out against this Abomination to say that the Ministery can be lost in the Church There is never then any Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Ministers since to transmit the Ministery after the ordinary manner 't is not requisite for the Ministery to be pure 't is sufficient that it is And thô for the transmitting of it there should be requir'd as Mr. Claude speaks not only Ministers of good Doctrin but also of good Life and good Example 't is as sure that there will be always such in the Society of GOD's People as 't is that there will be always true Believers since that all the Ministery as well as the People must be there mixt of Good and Bad till the final Separation at the last Judgment Thus the extraordinary Vocation is on all sides excluded from JESVS CHRISTs Church and can be only a weak Refuge for a deplor'd Cause And to see what an Overthrow to JESVS CHRISTs Order Mr. Claude here introduces we need only consider the Promises of JESVS CHRIST and see in what it has pleas'd him principally to establish the Strength of his Church She is strong she is invincible because JESUS CHRIST has said Mat. xvi v. 18. that Hell should not prevail against her But he did not say that Hell should not prevail against her till after he had said Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church adding presently after I will give unto thee the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven 'T is then in the Ministery confessing and declaring JESUS CHRIST and using the Authority of the Keys that JESUS CHRIST has principally establisht the Strength of his Church And to whom did he say I am with you even unto the end of the world Matt. xxviii v. 20. but to those to whom he said â—â—ach and baptize All the Church is comprehended in this Promise who knows it not But JESUS CHRIST would shew the Truth of this Doctrin Ep. 69. ad Flor. Pap. so well explicated by St. Cyprian The Church forsakes not JESUS CHRIST and this is the Church the People united with their Bishop and the Flock joyn'd to their Pastor where 't is clear that we must understand as he says elsewhere Ep. 45. ad Corin. 4. Tr. de vnit Ecc. c. this Pastor united with all his Collegues and with the whole Unity of the Episcopacy so often establisht in his Writings 'T is then with reason that JESUS CHRIST would shew the Succession of his Church by that of the Ministery and 't is manifestly seen that 't is to those who teach he would say I am always with you And what is here more admirable is that these Promises are so evident that Mr. Claude against the Prepossessions of his Religion was forc't to acknowledg them such as I have now explicated them For we have heard him tell us that 't is in effect of a confessing Church of a Church which publishes the Faith of a Church which uses the Ministery that JESUS CHRIST has pronounc'd that Hell should not prevail against her V. sup xi Ref. p. 99. seq And because JESUS CHRIST after he had said Teach and baptize adds I am with you Mr. Claude concludes as we do that JESUS CHRIST in effect designs a Church that he affirms he will be with her baptize with her and teach with her even unto the end of the world 'T is then the Succession and Perpetuity of the Ministery which is principally comprehended in this Promise 't is principally in this that JESUS CHRIST establishes the Strength and eternal Duration of his Church In the mean time against all this Order we are shewn the Ministery so weak and so forsaken by JESUS CHRIST that it falls all together in one moment and on the contrary particular Believers so strong that they alone establish all the Ministery extraordinarily rais'd without having regard to the Succession or Authority of all the precedent Administration Who does not then see that all is overturn'd in the new Reformation and that to say with them that GOD would preserve true Believers in his Church to depose by their means all the Pastors and afterward set up others extraordinarily in their place whilst he would not preserve good Pastors to transmit the Ministery by the common ways establisht in his word and always observ'd in his Church is to say that he would set up a Church in a manner contrary to that he has reveal'd and has always caus'd to be follow'd by his Church Or rather 't is to say that he would have this Church form'd after a manner so new amongst Chriâ—â—â—ans bear in its Original without ever being able to efface it the manifest Character of its Falsity But let us come to these true Believers of whom Mr. Claude brags to us I am not contented to dispute with them the Power he has given them to depose all their Pastors and make others I say that these true Believers never were There must notwithstanding according to this Minister have been true Believers even in the Bosom of the Roman Church for since according to his Doctrin there must be acknowledg'd without any Interruption an Ecclesiastical Ministery and an exterior Profession of which might have been said There are the true Believers they were true Believers under that Ministery and in that Profession whence they went forth I ask did they communicate in the Sacrifice where Saints are invocated where their Relicks and Images are honour'd where the Pope is nam'd as the Head of the Orthodox where JESUS CHRIST is ador'd as present in Body and Soul where he is offer'd where the Holy Sacrament is receiv'd under one Kind Not to communicate in this Sacrifice and to refuse the receiving of the Eucharist there were manifestly to separate and they are suppos'd not to have done that yet but if they communicated there continuing true Believers in what an Error are now all our Reformed who believe not themselves to have been true Believers till since they left communicating there Thus these true Believers are People in the Air 1 Kin. xix v. 18. these seven thousand so much bragg'd of in the new Reformation and by Mr. Claude Man Ans 2 part are so far from appearing that they are not in nature since before the Separation there was not any one who communicated not in the Sacrifice and Host which our Reformed look on as Baal before whom one must not bow the Knee They say that these true Believers who by their actual separating compos'd the Reformation were before separated in heart from the publick Idolatry But first this is not sufficient secondly 't is not so This is not sufficient according to Mr. Claude since he will have a Church always visible since he has just now defin'd the Church to be the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth
of Piety of real Sanctity Where then the Profession is wanting there are neither true Believers nor a true Church But moreover this is visibly not so else when Luther appear'd and Zuinglius innovated their Disciples must have made this Declaration This is what we always believ'd we always had our Heart averse from the Roman Faith and from the Pope and from Bishops and from the Real Presence and from Confession and from Communion under one Kind and from Relicks and from Images and from Prayer to Saints and from the Merit of Works Where are those who spake in this manner Can Mr. Claude name us any one of them On the contrary are not all these Reformed seen in all the Pages of their Books to speak as newly retir'd out of the Darkness of the Papacy and does not Luther glory at their head that he was the first who declar'd the Gospel All the Reformed grant it except Zuinglius who disputes this Honor with him He in the mean time acknowledges that he was the sincerest Monk the Priest most intent upon his Sacrifice and in a word the zealousest of all the Papists Do not the others use the same Language Where are then these true Believers of Mr. Claudes who not only durst not declare their Faith whilst they were in the Bosom of the Roman Church but after they were gone out of it durst not say they had always held in their heart the same Faith But see here the entire Ruin of the new Reformation In the Definition that Mr. Claude just now gave us of the true Church he says 'T is the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth under a Ministery which furnishes her with necessary Aliments without depriving her of any one If before the Refomation there was no such Church the true Church against Mr. Claude's Supposition no longer was and if there were such a Church where Profession was made of the Truth and which by her Ministery gave necessary Aliments to the Children of GOD without depriving them of any one what need was there of the Pretended Reformeds Separation Is it perhaps that they bethought themselves all on a sudden to say Mass and teach all the Doctrins which our Reformed have alledg'd for the Cause of their Rupture To think it only would be the greatest of Absurdities But it may be in teaching all these Doctrins they had not yet thought of excommunicating those that oppos'd them Whence then come so many Anathemaes against â—erengarius against the Waldenses and Albigenses against John Wickcliff and John Hus whom our Reformed will count amongst their Ancestors What then had not those who before the pretended Reformation made Profession of the Christian Truth that is according to Mr. Claude of the Reformed Doctrin yet found the Invention of making a Schism and was all the World agreed to suffer them But should all this be true the Affairs of the Reformation would not be a jot the better since still before it had any Existence there must be acknowledg'd a Ministery where without teaching either that the Sinner is justify'd by Faith alone and the sole Imputation of JESUS CHRIST's Justice or that GOD in the new Testament abhors Sacrifices celebrated in a sensible matter or that he alone would be invocated to the Exclusion of that inferior and subordiâ—ate Prayer which is address'd to Saints or in fine without any of those Articles which distinguish our Reformed from us althô they place their Salvation in them they ceas'd not to furnish the Children of GOD with all the Aliments necessary foâ— the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one What has the Reformation wrought if all these things are not necessary Aliments if even the Sacred Cup and consequently the Supper which according to our Pretended Reformed cannot subsist without the Cup is none of these Aliments necessary to the Christians Faith How they have tormented themselves in vain and how unadvisedly they have caus'd so many Troubles and shed so much Blood if these things are not necessary Perhaps these necessary Aliments must be reduc'd to the Apostles Creed or in general to the Scripture But the Socinian Church remins this Creed and this Scripture so that the Ministery of a Socinian Church would according to this Rule have furnisht the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one What then at last will these necessary Aliments be and if they are furnisht without the Substraction of any one only by proposing the Creed and the Scripture in what Heresy have they been wanting The more Mr. Claude endeavours here to disengage himself Man Ans 4. q. the more he is intangled For after he has establisht as a Fundamental Truth that GOD always preservos in the Ministery all that is necessary to nourish there the true Believers and bring them to Salvation he says it does not thence follow that the Ministery is exempt from all Error even in its Decisions but that whether they concern not sensibly the Conscience or even concern Salvation the Conscience is made use of to reject the Evil and preserve Purity Thus all would be reduc'd to Liberty of Conscience and what Error soever is taught in the Ministery provided they force none to follow their Decisions and suffer all contrary Doctrin good or bad 't is enough to make Mr. Claude say that the Ministery furnishes the Children of GOD with all necessary Aliments without depriving them of any one But according to this Pretention there would be no Society whose Ministery should more furnish all necessary Aliments than a Society of Socinians who brag that they will not damn any one If it be said amongst our Reformed that a Socinian Church overthrows the Foundation by denying the Divinity of JESUS CHRIST 't is also said there that 't was no less overthrown before their Reformation by the Idolatries which as they say reign'd every where And if they will in fine imagin that 't is more dangerous to destroy the Foundation by Substraction with the Socinians than with the Roman Church by these pretended Additions which they call Idolatry besides all the Substractions we have just now shewn there according to the Principles of the Reformed and even before their Reformation it were an unheard of Extravagance to believe that it would be more easy for these true Believers who ought to make the Distinction of Doctrins under a Ministery full of Errors to cut off what is superfluous than to supply what is defective or that the Foundation of the Faith is more certainly overthrown by diminishing than by adding the Scripture having so often comprehended under one common Malediction as well those that diminish as those that add 'T would be better then for 〈…〉 to set also 〈…〉 and the perpeâ—â—al Visibility of the Church and 〈…〉 't is in fine sufficient all this Visibility being 〈◊〉 that GOD has preserv'd the Holy Scripture where the Faithful whether conceal'd or open
Preaching not some Truths or only the principal Truths but the entire Fulness of Christian Truths Whatever they say 't is not to believe blindly to believe thus or 't is to believe blindly like Abraham on the word of GOD himself and the Faith of his Promises How insupportable then is the Doctrin of Mr. Claude who after he has acknowledg'd so many magnificent Promises of JESUS CHRIST's in favour of this sacred Ministery plunging again all of a sudden into the Darkness of his Sect whence he was beginning to get out shews us the Ministery so abandon'd by JESUS CHRIST that there is no Remedy for its Errors but by deposing all at once all those which are in the Chair What agreement have these Promises so well acknowledg'd with so universal a Corruption Mr. Claude then needs only hearken a little to himself for to come unto us after having acknowledg'd in vertue of the divine Promises the Eternity of the Ecclesiastical Ministery in this Estate he represents to us to find there always all Truth he needs only consider that this imperfect Assistance and as one may say this half Succor of JESVS CHRIST to his Church is neither beseeming his Wisdom nor his Power being moreover assur'd that there is no true Sufficiency in the Ministery but by the full manifestation of the Truth reveal'd by GOD agreeably to this Word of the Apostle By manifestation of the Truth we commend our selves to every mans Conscience in the sight of GOD. 2 Cor. iv v. 2 3 4. Whence he concludes presently after that if our Gospel that is most certainly our Preaching be hid it is hid to them that are lost to the end he may make us understand that the Preaching always clear and always sincere in the Catholick Church has no obscurity but in Rebels in whom the Devil the God of this World and the Spirit of Pride hath blinded the minds as the same Apostle proceeds lâ—st the Light of the glorious Gospel should shine unto them 'T is now easy to see that all Mr. Claude's Subtilties serve only to confound him What avails it him that acknowledging the Churches Visibility he endeavour'd to elude the Consequences of this Doctrin by reducing the Church to the true Believers I am contented where-ever he finds Church let him understand the true Believers let him even explicate if he will these Words Mat. xviii v. 4. Tell it unto the Church Tell it to the true Believers single them out amongst the Troop and judge before the Lord or because as himself acknowledges here is too apparently meant the Church represented by her Pastors Mans Ans 4. q. let him say that these Pastors represent the true Believers which are not known and act in their Name What will these Explications after all advantage him since that in fine according to his own Doctrin this true Church shall always be 〈◊〉 visible and these true Believers always under a publick Ministery from which JESUS CHRIST so little permits his Church to be separated that even after these Words Tell it unto the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him he unto theâ— as an 〈◊〉 man to shew how redoubtable the Churches Judgment is he immediatly expresses the efficacy of the Ministery by these Words Matt. xviii v. 18. Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and the rest which every one knows Thus I conclude always equally that the Church which we must shew without interruption whether it be only the true Believers or if they will only the Elect or whether it be in a certain Sense the wicked mixt with them Matt. xiii v. 21. and those that believe for a while according to the expression of the Gospel is a Church always gather'd under a visible Ministery and a Body always subsisting of People with their Pastors where the Truth is preacht not in secret Matt. x. v. 27. but upon the house tops Let them turn as much as they will 't is a Church of this Nature and this Constitution we must at all times shew by Mr. Claude's Confession To make her disappear for one sole Moment is utterly to annihilate her and to overthrow the Promises of the Gospel in what they have most sensible and most apparent to make her appear always is invindibly to establish the Roman Church Thus what Mr. Claude explicates to us with so much care besides that it is false leaves the Difficulty entire and his Cause in as had a Condition as it was before his Defence But to the end they may not say we are contented with refuting him let us tell him the Truth in few words The Foundation of the Church is the true Believers and those principally who persevering to the end abide eternally in JESVS CHRIST and JESVS CHRIST in them that is to say the Elect. The Wicked which envinron them are after their manner comprehended under the Name of the Church as the Nails as the Hair as an Eye put out and a wither'd Arm which perhaps receives no more nourishment is comprehended under the Name of the Body All is for these true Believers The Ministery under which they live is theirs in the Sense 1 Cor. iii. v. 22. that St. Paul said All is yours whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas Not that the Power of their Pastors comes from them or that they alone can set them up and depose them GOD forbid This Pastoral and Apostolick Power comes from him Joh. xx v. 21. who said As my Father hath sent me I also send you This is what makes St. Paul say in the same place 1 Cor. iii. v. 4 5. Who is then Apollos and who is Paul The Ministers of him whom you have believ'd and to every one as our Lord hath given to you to be Believers and to us to be Pastors Wherefore he adds farther v. 9. We are GODs Laborers or to say better Co-operators These Ministers and these Workers establisht by GOD are also the Ministers of the Faithful and in this Sense are theirs because they are their Servants by JESVS CHRIST establisht in the Chair not for themselves for as to their own part it would suffice them to be simple Believers 2 Cor. iv v. 5. but for to edify the Saints He that desires to be in the Communion of these Saints need not torment himself to distinguish them from others for thô they are not known and perfectly discern'd but by GOD alone we are sure to find them under the publick Ministery and in the exterior Profession of the Catholick Church We need then only stay there for to be assur'd to find the Saints because this Profession and the ever fruitful Word of the Preachers which never fails to engender some keeps them always inseparably united to the holy Society where they receiv'd it Wherefore when JESVS CHRIST promises to teach always with his Church he comprehends all in this Word and rendring
Memory Let us come to the time when the Christian has the use of Reason and when he can make an Act of Faith By what shall he begin but by what he began to be instructed He believes then the Universal Church before he believes the Scripture In effect make I do not say a Child but any Man whosoever read the Canticle of Canticles in which there is not the least mention of GOD either good or bad In good earnest He believes this Book inspir'd by GOD only because of the Tradition First of the Synagogue and Secondly of the Christian Church that is in one word through the Authority of the Universal Church But let us keep to our Point Let us consider the Christian in the Moment when the Holy Scripture is propos'd to him as the Word of GOD. 'T is the Holy Ghost which makes him believe it we are agreed on that Point But we dispute about the exterior Means of which the Holy Ghost makes use I say That 't is the Church since 't is she in effect which proposes to him the Holy Scripture since he believ'd the Church before he heard of the Scripture since at his opening the Scripture he is in Condition to say I believe this Scripture as I believe that GOD is You say That he cannot make this Act of Faith He is then no Believer and his Baptism is of no use to him We must instruct him as an Infidel saying to him Here is the Scripture which I believe inspir'd by GOD read it Child examin it see whether it be the very Truth or a Fable The Church believes it inspir'd by GOD but the Church may be deceiv'd and thou art not in condition to make with her this Act of Faith As I believe that GOD is so I believe that he himself inspir'd this Scripture If this manner of Instructing strikes an Horror into Christians and leads manifestly to Impiety the Christian must be able at first to make an Act of Faith upon the Scripture propos'd to him by the Church he must consequently believe That the Church is not deceiv'd in giving him this Scripture A◠he receives from her the Scripture he receives from her the Interpretation of it and she no more exercises Dominion over the Consciences in obliging her Children to believe her Interpretations without examining than she does in obliging us to believe without examining the Scripture it self By this Argument Sir reply'd Mr. Claude you would make every one conclude in Favor of his Church The Greeks the Armenians the Ethiopians we our selves whom you believe to be in error we are nevertheless Baptiz'd we have by Baptism both the Holy Ghost and this Faith infus'd of which you have been speaking Every one of us has receiv'd the Holy Scripture from the Church in which he was baptiz'd every one believes his to be the true Church declar'd in the Creed and at the first he even knows not any other Now if as we have receiv'd without examining the Holy Scripture from the Hand of that Church in which we are we must also as you say receive blindfold all its Interpretations 't is an Argument to conclude That every one ought to continue as he is and that every Religion is good This was in truth the strongest Objection that could be made and thô the Solution of this Doubt appear'd clear to me I was in pain how I might render it clear to those who heard me I spake with trembling seeing it concern'd the Salvation of a Soul and I besought GOD who made me see the Truth so clearly That he would give me Words to express it fully and plainly For I had to do with a Man who heard patiently spake clearly and strongly and in fine pusht the Difficulties to the utmost points I told him I must first distinguish their Case from that of the Greeks Armenians and others he had nam'd who indeed err in taking a false Church for the true but believe at least as indubitable That the true Church wheresoever she is must be believ'd and that she never deceives her Children You are said I to him much farther off for I can lay to your Charge That you do not only like the Greeks and Ethiopians take a false Church for a true but what is undeniable and what you your self confess That you will not have us even believe the true After this Distinction which seem'd necessary to me let us come to your Difficulty Let us distinguish in the Belief of the Greeks and other false Churches what there is of Truth what they have in common with the true Universal Church in a word what comes from GOD from that which comes from human Prejudice GOD by his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of those who are baptiz'd in these Churches That there is a GOD and a JESUS CHRIST and an Holy Ghost Hitherto there is no Error all this is from GOD Is it not true He agreed it They believe also That there is an Universal Church Are they not right in this and is it not a Truth reveal'd by GOD that there is one indeed I expected his Acknowledgment and after he had given it I added That the Greeks and Ethiopians were dispos'd to believe without examining whatever the true Church propos'd to ' em This is what you approve not Sir in this you are separated from all other Christians who unanimously believe That there is a true Church which never deceives her Children I who believe this with them reckon this Belief amongst the things which come from GOD But see where the human Prejudices begin This Baptiz'd being seduc'd by his Parents and Pastors believes the Church in which he is to be the true and attributes in particular to this false Church all that GOD makes him believe in general of the true 'T is not the Holy Ghost that puts this in his Heart Is it not true 'T is without doubt true In this place he begins to believe amiss Here Error begins here the Divine Faith infus'd by the Holy Ghost begins to be lost Happy are those in whom the human Prejudices are joyn'd with the true Belief which the Holy Ghost puts in their Heart They are exempt from a great Temptation and the terrible Pain there is to distinguish that which is from GOD in the Faith of their Church from that which is from Men. But whatever Difficulty Men have to distinguish these things GOD knows them and distinguishes them and there will be an eternal Difference between that which his Holy Spirit puts in the Heart of the Baptiz'd when he interiorly disposes them to believe the true Church and that which human Prejudices have added to it by fixing their Spirit to a false one How these Baptiz'd may afterwards disentangle these things and by what means they may get out of the Prepossession that has made them confound the Idea of the false Church in which they are with the Faith of the true Church
there was a Church before them from which they brake and against which they set up another Church No said he They corrupted it Ha Sir reply'd I What Difficulty is this Never any Hereticks separated but by corrupting some of the Churches Children and separating with them from the Church in which they had all been baptiz'd But in fine tell me Sir Was not the Sect of the Arians and that Church which is nam'd the Arian new If you mean Sir answered he That Arius was the first who spake against the Divinity of the Son of GOD 't is not true Origen before him and Justin Martyr said the same thing Ha Sir said I That a Martyr deny'd the Divinity of GGDs Son is what I shall never believe As to Origen you know that he is alledg'd both for and against it He is an ambiguous and suspected Author But Sir let us leave uncertain Facts And let us endeavour to find one about which both you and I may agree That Sect which after the Condemnation pronounc'd against Arius join'd with this excommunicated Priest and form'd a Church against the Church was it not new He could not but grant it To prove its Newness continu'd I was there any need of ascending up to the Apostles and could not one say to it Church separated from that other Church in which Arius was born and in which he receiv'd Baptism you were neither yesterday nor the day before One might said Mr. Claude May one not say as much of the Macedonian Church which deny'd the Divinity of the Holy Ghost of the Nestorians who divided JESUS CHRISTs Person of the Eutychians that confounded his two Natures and of the Pelagians who deny'd Original Sin and the Grace of JESUS CHRIST Might one not say to them without ascending up to the Apostles When you came into the World you found the Church baptizing Children unto Remission of Sins and praying for the Conversion of Sinners and Infidels What then all these Hereticks and all the rest whom you and we know oppugned was believ'd not only from the Apostles time but yesterday and the day before and at the time when these Heresiarchs came and they found the Church in this Belief But answer'd Mr. Claude There are two ways of establishing Error the one open and the other secret and insensible Stay Sir said I to him we ought to propose evident Facts which both Parties agree I do not agree this insensible way of establishing Error Ha Sir said he will you say That you shall find praying to Saints and Purgatory in the Apostles times No Sir answer'd I I will say nothing about them for you will not agree it and I will say such things as you may agree Deal in the same manner with me He that shall draw most solid Advantages from Facts granted by his Adversary will have a great Argument that the Truth is for him For 't is the Property of Truth to keep it self upon all sides and to condemn Error by Facts which Error it self acknowledges And since you mention Prayer to Saints you are sincere is it not true that Mr. Daillé grants us thirteen hundred Years Antiquity Thirteen hundred Years Sir answer'd he is not the whole time of the Church I agree it said I to him but in fine my Adversary grants me already thirteen hundred Years he gives me St. Gregory Nazianzen St. Basil St. Ambrose St. Hierom St. Chrysostom St. Augustin All these said Mr. Claude are but Men. Let them be Men as much as you please But in fine we have from our Adversaries Confession thirteen hundred Years for Invocation of Saints and Veneration of Relicks for these two things were joyn'd together as you know Mr. Daillé asserts And how much does Mr. Blondel grant for Prayer for the Dead 'T is true said Mr. Claude That this is the antientest Error of the Church Fourteen hundred Years Antiquity said I to him is what Mr. Blondel yields us I say not this to create a Prejudice for the Truth of our Doctrin that is not the matter in hand But I say it to shew That we are not without Defence upon these Examples of Errors insensibly spread since we already have by your Consent thirteen hundred and fourteen hundred Years Let us come then to evident Facts on which I may agree For as for you you agree That the Arians Nestorians Pelagians and in one word all Hereticks were establisht as I have said They found not any Church to which they united themselves They erected one which was separated from all the other Churches that then were This is certain Is it not manifest I expected Mr. Claude contradicted it not I thought not my self oblig'd to press him any farther upon a thing evident and already own'd Now said I to him how were the Orthodox Churches establisht When particular Persons and People for Example the Indians were converted found they not a Church already establisht to which they united themselves He acknowledg'd it Did you went I on find one in the whole World to which you join'd your selves Did you embrace the Greek the Armenian or the Ethiopian Church when you forsook the Roman Can we not mark you the precise Date of your Churches and say to all that Church to all that exterior Society in which you are Minister you were not yesterday But said Mr. Claude here were we not of this Church We went not out we were driven out of it We were Excommunicated in the Council of Trent Thus we went forth But we carried the Church with us What Discourse is this Sir said I to him If you had not been driven out would you have staid in it To what purpose then is that Command so often repeated amongst you Go forth of Babylon my People Tell me sincerely Would you have staid in the Church if she had not driven ye out No sure Sir said Mr. Claude To what purpose then answer'd I do you say here That you were driven out Because said he it is true And well Sir proceeded I it is true This is common to you be not displeas'd at what I am going to say this is common to you with all Hereticks The Church in which they receiv'd Baptism cast them forth Excommunicated them They would perhaps have willingly stay'd in it to corrupt and seduce but the Church cut them off And as to what you say That you were in this Church which cast you out and that you carry'd the Church with you what Heretick may not say as much 'T was not of Heathens that the Ancient Hereticks compos'd their Churches 't was of Christians bred in the Church You also have not form'd yours by amassing Mahometans I agree it But in this you do not outgo the Examples of the ancient Hereticks and they were all able to say as well as you That they were condemn'd by their Adversaries For they were not made to sit amongst the Judges when their Novelty was condemn'd But Sir reply'd Mr.
Claude we agree not this Novelty What is in the Scripture is not new Patience Sir I beseech you said I to him None of the Ancient Hereticks agreed the Novelty of their Doctrin they all alledg'd the Holy Scripture for themselves But there was one Novelty which they could not deny to wit That the Body of their Church was not yesterday and you granted it And well in fine said Mr. Claude if the Arians if the Nestorians if the Pelagians had been right at the Bottom they would not have been to blame in their Proceeding To blame or not said I to him is not Sir the Bottom of the Question But it still continues evident That you have the same Proceeding with them the same Conduct the same Defences in a word That in forming your Church you have done as all the Hereticks did and we do what all the Orthodox have done Every one may judg in his Conscience which he had rather resemble and I have no more to say Mr. Claude was not silent on this occasion but told me That this Argument was excellent in Favor of the Jews and Pagans and that they might maintain their Cause by the Reason I made use of Let us see said I to him Sir and remember that you promise us the same Argument The same answer'd he without doubt The Jews and Pagans upbraided the Christians with their newness you know it The Writings of Celsus and so many others are Proofs of it I agree it said I to him and is this all And 't was true proceeded he That Christianity was new if we regard it in the State immediately preceding What said I to him when JESUS CHRIST began to preach could they say to him as I do to you That in the Church he was born in there was yesterday no mention of him non his Coming What then was St. John Baptist Anna the Prophetess Simeon the Wise Men and the Priests consulted by Herod when they answer'd him That the Place of his Birth was Bethlehem Was there any one Moment when CHRIST was not expected in the Church where he was born and so well expected that the Jews expect him still 'T is very true Sir That there was a Necessity this Novelty should once be seen to happen and this Change by CHRIST expected at CHRISTs Coming But JESUS CHRIST is not therefore new Heb. xiii v. 8. He is the same yesterday to day and for ever 'T is true answer'd Mr. Claude but the Synagogue agreed not That JESUS was the CHRIST But reply'd I The Synagogue condemn'd not St. John Baptist but the Synagogue heard without contradicting them the Wise Men Simeon and Anna. JESUS CHRIST gather'd in the Synagogue the then true Church the Children of GOD which it contain'd The Synagogue at last condemn'd him But JESUS CHRIST had already founded his Church He gave it its last Form presently after his Death and the new People follow'd the old without any Interruption These are undeniable Truths And for what concerns Paganism 't is true the Pagans upbraided the Christians with their Newness But what did the Christians answer Did they not shew That the Jews always believ'd the same GOD which the Christians ador'd and expected the same CHRIST That the Jews believ'd all this yesterday and the day before and always without Interruption But Sir once again said Mr. Claude The Gentils agreed not all this What answer'd I was there amongst them any one so unreasonable as to say That there never were any Jews or that this People expected not a CHRIST and ador'd not one sole GOD Creator of Heaven and Earth Did not they shew the Pagans the manifest Beginning of their Opinions and the Date I do not say of the Authors of their Sentiments but of their Gods themselves and this by their own Histories by their own Authors and by their own Chronology Do you believe That a Pagan could have made a Christian confess That the Christian Religion was new or that there never was any Society which had the same Belief the Christians then had as I make you own That all the Hereticks which you and I acknowledg for such came in this manner and that you have done as they did See Sir how you prove That the Jews and Pagans might maintain their Cause by the same Argument I use None can ever do it nor can ever any one deny the evident Fact vvhich I affirm That vve do as all the Orthodox and you as all the Hereticks have done Here the Conversation ended It had lasted five Hours with a great Attention of the whole Assembly We heard one another peaceably We spake on both sides close enough and except the beginning vvhere Mr. Claude a little enlarg'd his Discourse in all the rest he came to the Matter and presented himself to the Difficulty vvithout Recoiling 'T is true he aim'd rather to entangle me in the Inconveniences in vvhich I engag'd him than to shevv hovv he could himself get out But in fine all this proceeded from the Cause and he assuredly said all that his could furnish him vvith upon the Point to vvhich vve had confin'd our selves For my part I car'd not to go from it since 't was that which Mademoiselle de Duras desir'd to have clear'd She appear'd to me toucht I nevertheless retir'd trembling and fearing lest my weakness might have put her Soul in danger and the Truth in doubt I Visited her the next day III. The Sequel of the Conference I was glad to see she perfectly understood all I had said This is what I had promis'd her I had represented to her That amidst the immense Difficulties which the Spirit of Cavilling and the Depth of the Christian Doctrin had caus'd to spring up a-amongst men GOD would have his Children provided of an easy Means to resolve themselves in what concern'd their Salvation that this Means was the Churches Authority that this means was easy to be establisht easy to be understood easy to be follow'd so easy said I and so clear that if you shall not understand what I shall say upon it I am contented you believe me to be in the wrong This in effect must be so when the matter is well handled But I durst not promise my self that I had treated it as I ought I knew with joy and thanksgiving that GOD had turn'd all to good The Arguments that ought to affect affected her She could not comprehend how an ignorant private Person could without an insupportable pride believe he might happen to understand the Scripture better than all the Universal Councels and all the rest of the Church She saw as well as I how weak the Example of the Synagogue was when it condemn'd JESUS CHRIST and how little reason there was to say That the particular persons who believ'd well wanted an Exterior Authority to resolve them when they had in the Person of JESUS CHRIST the greatest and most visible Authority that can be imagin'd I
Submission of a divine Faith And well if it be so it remains only to choose between these Churches But then the Calvinistical Church is gone at the very first brush she degrades her self as I may say from the Title of the Church since she finds not in her self Authority enough to cause all those whom she begins to instruct to make an Act of a Christian and an Act of divine Faith not even on the Truth of the Scripture whence 't is suppos'd she ought to learn all the rest But Mr. Claude asks how one shall choose between these Churches Shall it be by Enthusiasm It would be by Enthusiasm as I have observ'd in the Conference if the true Church had not her particular Characters that distinguish her from others She has without going any farther or searching any deeper her Succession in which none can shew her by any positive Fact Interruption Innovation or Change This is what no false Church can so clearly glory of as the true because by glorying of it she would visibly condemn her self There will be then always in the Instruction which the true Church shall give her Children concerning her Condition something that no other Sect can or dare say 'T is by this we would convince if it were in question the Greeks the Ethiopians the Armenians and other Sects which seem in this respect more deceiving because of the apparence of Succession that they shew which also makes them way to attribute to themselves with a little more ground the Authority of the Church But as for the Calvinian Church there is an end of her because she has not so much as an apparent and tolerable Succession and that she dares not as we have now shewn by Mr. Claude's acknowledgment attribute to her self this Authority without which there can neither be any certain Instruction nor any assur'd Foundation of Divine Faith nor in fine any Church 'T would be then in vain for us to lose time here in disputing with the Egyptians and Greeks the Succession they brag of 'T would be no great Labor to shew them the exact Moment of their Innovation The Pretended Reformed know it as well as we and can themselves shew it them when they please So when they pross us to do it 't is not that they think to engage us in a thing impossible or even obscure and difficult but 't is in a word that in so bad a cause there is always something got by digressing and making the consequence of an Argument be lost Thus I had reason to tell Mademoiselle de Duras in one of the Instructions of this Book that if any one disgusted with the Calvinistical Church was tempted to embrace the Religion of the Cophti or of the Greeks 't would be then time to shew them in these Churches that inevitable Moment of their Novelty which they can no more deâ—y than can the other Sects but since the Calvinists with whom we have to do agree it and that none thinks of leaving them but to come to us when we oblige any one to leave them by shewing from their Ministers own Confession the enormous Absurdities of their Doctrin the work is perfected and all the rest on that occasion would be to no purpose And to the end the Method of the Conference and the State of the Question which is there treated may be throughly understood it did not aim directly to establish the Roman Church but only to shew that there is some-where or other a true Church to which we must submit without examining and besides that this cannot be the Calvinistical Church since she will her self have one examin after her which makes her acknowledge the Absurdities we have remark't and by this acknowledgment lose the Title of the Church This done there 's no more question to preach the Roman Church that is that Body of the Church of which Rome is the Head since to him that will choose between two Churches the excluding of the one is the establishing of the other without any need of disputing farther for this purpose Besides that the Roman Church so evidently beare these Characters of the true Church that there is scarce any man of good Sense even amongst our Reformed but agrees that if there be in the world an Authority to which we must submit 't is that of this Church But however when one sees the Absurdities one is forc'd to own in Calvinism for want of having acknowledg'd in the Churches Authority the true Principles of Christian Instruction one soon retires from a Church whose Method and Instruction is so manifestly defective and one is sufficiently sollicited by the Remains of Christianity which one feels within himself to return to the Church from whence he departed The Sixth REFLECTION On Mr. Claude's reducing as much as he can this Dispute to the Instruction of Children VVE see in Mr. Claude's Discourses that press'd by this want of Authority which ruins all Instruction in his Church he affects to reduce our Dispute to the Instruction of Children and thinks he has found an Advantage by making this Instruction depend on Parents and Nurses who are better known at that Age than the Church and her Ministers By this means he thinks to conceal from us the Churches Authority in the first Exercises and first Acts of Faith we make before we have read the Holy Scripture But he ought first to consider that the Argument I made him regarded not only Children Children are not the only Christians that have not read the Scripture Mr. Claude is not ignorant that there were in the beginning of Christianity not only particular men but also whole Nation which according to the Report of St. Irenaeus had not the Holy Scripture and without reading it ceas'd not to be true Christians The Debate then between us is in general concerning all those that have not read the Holy Scripture of what Age soever they may be and what way soever they may have hapned not to have read it For 't is of those and if they will 't is of those whom St. Irenaeus mentions or of their like that I enquire concerning the Faith with which they believe the Scripture and prepare to read it as being inspir'd by GOD. If they have but an human Faith as Mr. Claude says they are not Christians and if they have a Divine Faith as must be acknowledg'd unless we will fall into an horrible Absurdity 't is then true that Divine Faith without ones having read the Scripture immediatly follows the Churches Doctrin and establishes her infallible Authority 'T is on this Authority that every Christian who takes the Scripture in hand begins by believing with a firm Faith that all he is going to read is Divine and he stays not his believing the truth of this Scripture till he has read it all he believes the first Chapter before he has read the second and he believes all before he has read the first Letter or so much
to the private Persons that were never vested with it And what is Mr. Claude's Meaning Is it that these private Persons become of right Ministers without any Bodies having ordain'd them or that without being Ministers they have Right of their sole Authority to set up Ministers in the Church Let them shew me it in the Scripture or let them for ever renounce the Pretence of having the Scripture alone for Guide I find in the Scripture that JESVS CHRIST said to his Apostles As my Father sent me I also send you I find in the Scripture that the Apostles thus send others and consecrate themselves Successors But that all their Successors being on a sudden faln and depriv'd of the right of their Ministery this Ministery should of right return to the Faithful to whom none had ever given it to dispose of at their Pleasure neither has the Scripture said nor following Ages imagin'd 'T is then a Monster the Birth of which was reserv'd for the time of the new Reformation The Ministery say they belongs of right to the Church It does without doubt belong to the Church as the Eyes do to the Body The Ministery is not for it self no more are the Eyes The Ministery is establisht to be the Light of the Church as the Eyes are the Light or as JESVS CHRIST calls them the Torch of the Body Does it follow that when the Body has lost its Eyes it can remake them of it self No without doubt it will have need of the Hand which made them at first and there will never be any thing but a new Creation which can repair the Work that the first Creation had form'd In this manner if the Catholick Church could as they would imagin in the new Reformation lose all on a sudden all its Ministers without their having given themselves Successors according to the Order of JESVS CHRIST JESVS CHRIST must come again on Earth to re-establish this sacred Order by a new Creation They will indeed find in the Bosom of the Roman Church these true Believers of which the Reformed Church was at first compos'd why will they not in the same manner detach the Pastors of this Reformed Church from the Pastors which were in Office in the Roman Church The Ministery is to be mixt as the People and is to have always good Pastors amongst the Bad as there are always true Believers amongst the false Christians Why then were they fain to say in the new Reformation and in the XXXI Article of their Confession of Faith that the State of the Church was interrupted Why were they fain to have recourse to these People extraordinarily rais'd to build anew the Church which was in ruin and desolation 'T is that they were fain to speak not according to what ought to be done in the Order establisht by JESVS CHRIST but according to what was done against all Order 'T is that the new Reformation was made of Pastors who in effect held nothing from the Pastors that were before and therefore they were necessitated even against their Wills to attribute to them thô without proof an extraordinary Vocation But in truth Reason requir'd something else and why then did they not speak according to Reason except it were once again that they were fain to accommodate not what was done to the Rule but the Rule to what was done But will they say if any Church for example the Greek Church shews us the Succession of her Pastors will you hold it for a true Church By no means if I can shew in it Marks of Innovation which it cannot deny as I should do without much trouble if it were in question But with our Reformed the Proof is made since themselves confess the Interruption we charge them with Mr. Claude palliates as well as he can this interrupted State of the Church so punctually acknowledg'd in her Confession of Faith We distinguish After the 4. q. 7. Conseq says he the Church from her State The Church are the true Believers who make Profession of the Christian Truth of Piety and of a real Sanctity under a Ministery which furnishes them with the Aliments necessary for the Spiritual Life without depriving them of any one Her natural and legitimate State is to be discharg'd as much as the Condition of militant can permit from the impure mixture of prophano Persons and Worldings not to be cover'd and as it were bury'd by this Chaff and these Tares whence a thousand Evils come upon her as to have a Ministery free from Errors from false Worships from superstitious Practices a Ministery possess'd by good People who keep at by good ways and serve themselves for good example 'T is this State of the Church which we say was interrupted Why does he load himself with so many Words and because they are pompous not observe that they are vain not to say deceitful and manifestly contrary to the Gospel For can one more clearly impose on People than by exaggerating as is here done this Ministery possest by good people who keep it by good ways and serve themselves for good Example Is it that the Authority of the Ecclesiastical Ministery dupends on the Discussion of the Life and good Example of those who are vested with it and that thô they should be as scandalous and perverse as the Scribes and Pharisees we must not still say not with JESVS CHRIST they sit in Moses Chair but what is much more august Matt. 23. v. 2. they are in the Chair of JESVS CHRIST and his Apostles Let us leave nevertheless these things and come to this interrupted State of the XXXI Article which Mr. Claude undertakes here to explicate to us This interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd here to found the necessity of an extraordinary Vocation in the Pretended Reformers for let us hear how this Article speaks It has been sometimes necessary and namely in our days in which the State of the Church was interrupted that GOD should raise up people after an extraordinary manner to set up the Church anew You see Gentlemen this interrupted State of the Church is alledg'd only to found the extraordinary Vocation of your Pretended Reformers But to found the Necessity of an extraordinary Vocation 't is not sufficient that the Ministery is impure it must have ceased When you came Gentlemen had this Ecclesiastical Ministery ceas'd By no means will Mr. Claude answer you for then the Church would have ceas'd since the Church according to him as you just now heard is nothing else but the true Believers who make Profession of the Truth UNDER A MINISTERY which furnishes her with necessary Aliments And he has already told us that the Church is never without the Ministery Wherefore in this place where he endeavours to give an Account of this interrupted State after he has by so many fine Words set forth the Impurity which he imagins in the Ministery before the Reformation The Church adds he ceas'd
whether dispers'd or re-united whether always subsisting or sometimes wholly extinct shall clearly find according to his Principles without any need of the Ministery all necessary Aliments For also of what use is a Ministery to them in which Error prevail And would not the Scripture alone be more commodious and more instructive to them This is what the 〈◊〉 should say to avoid the Inconveniences into which we cast them But Mr. Claude neither durst nor ever will dare to do it because he would find in it Inconveniences yet more insupportable and more visible 'T is in a word because he sound that by pushing the Authority and sufficiency as I may say of the Scripture independently of all Ecclesiastical Ministery they must at last destroy the Scripture it self In effect Rom. 1. ◠10. he found in the Scripture that the Scripture ought not to be Vid. Sup. p. 50. as the Philosophy of 〈◊〉 the Rule of 〈◊〉 Republick in Idea but of a People always subsisting which this Scripture calls the Church He has found that this People ought to be always visible on the earth since they ought not only to believe with the Heart but also to confes◠with the Mouth and to use his Terms make Profession of the Christian Truth He has found that the Scripture was entrusted in the hands of such a People to be their unchangeable Rule that there should be always Interpreters establisht by GOD the Author of this Scripture as well as the Founder of this People and that so the Ministery destin'd by GOD to this Interpretation was as eternal as the Church it self If he writ these great Words GOD always preserves in the publick Ministery all that is necessary for the guiding true Believers to Salvation Man Ans 4. q. he cannot found this Assurance on any human Industry Let GOD leave the Ecclesiastical Ministery to it self it must fall If then it be certain that GOD will always keep there all that is necessary to Salvation GOD himself must have promis'd it and the Eternity of the Ministery cannot be founded but on this Promise Mr. Claude also finds it in those Words Thou art Peter Matt. xvi v. 18. and the rest 'T is thence he concludes with us that JESUS CHRIST in speaking to a Church that confesses and confesses without difficulty by her principal Ministers since 't is by St. Peter in the Name of the Apostles to a Church joyn'd to an exterior Ministery and using the Power of the Keys has promis'd her that Hell should not prevail against her consequently supported by this Ministery and therefore he affirms that GOD preserves always in the publick Ministery all that is necessary to the Salvation of GODs Children Another Promise of JESUS CHRIST's Matt. xxviii v. 19 20. directed to those that baptize and those that teach and concluded by these powerful Words And lo I am with you alway even unto the end of the World makes Mr. Claude as well as us say that JESUS CHRIST promises the Church to be with her Ibid. to baptize with her and to teach with her without interruption even to the end of the World Thus according to this Minister this Promise regards the Church as joyn'd to the Ecclesiastical Ministery which makes him also conclude that JESUS CHRIST promises the Corruption shall never be such in the Ministery but that there shall still be enough to entertain the true Faith of his Elect even to the end of the World In fine Eph. iv Man Ans Ibid. a third Passage to wit that of St. Paul to the Ephefians makes him conclude with us that the Ministery shall last even to the end of the World and continue in a degree and in an Estate sufficient to edify the Body of CHRIST and bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks GOD then must concern himself with it without whose Assistances continually present neither such a Stability nor such an Integrity can be expected in the Ministery After he had thus begun to believe he should have finish◠the Work and given Glory to GOD even to the end Mr. Claude was not far from the Kingdom of GOD when he said that GOD would render himself superior enough over human Infirmity to preserve always manger the Efforts of Hell a Church which should confess the Truth and an exterior Ministery which should furnish true Believers with the Aliments necessary to Salvation He ought then to proceed to the end and believe that the same Hand which would hinder Hell from prevailing so far against the Ministery as to deprive it of these necessary Aliments would hinder it also from prevailing so far as to make any Error have dominion in it and that so much the rather as what he believ'd manifestly comprehends what is left to believe For if he believ'd on the Faith of the Divine Promise that there should be always a Church with which JESUS CHRIST would not cease to teach that is without difficulty that he would not cease to teach with the Doctors of this Church he ought by the same means to believe that he would teach there all Truth JESVS CHRIST not being come Joh. xvi v. 13. nor having sent his Holy Spirit to his Apostles to teach them some Truths but to teach them all Truth as himself declares in his Gospel Nor would it be to any purpose to say that Mr. Claude Promises in the Ministery only sufficient Aliments which can comprehend no more than the Fundamentals of the Faith as our Reformed find them amongst the Lutherans For JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin containing nothing but what is profitable Is 48. v. 17. agreeably to this Word I am the Lord which teacheth thee profitable things if we find not in the Ministery JESVS CHRISTs Doctrin entire we shall never find that Degree requir'd by Mr. Claude nor that Estate sufficient to bring all the Elect to the Perfection of which St. Paul speaks 'T would be then something to believe that by the Promise GOD would always keep without interruption in the Ministery all essential Truths for 't would be to acknowledge in the Church with which JESUS CHRIST teaches a beginning of infallible Authority by acknowledging this Authority at least in respect of the first Truths of Christianity But to finish the Work and not to believe by halves we must also believe that JESUS CHRIST in teaching teaches all and confess in his Church an absolute Infallibility Thus we must not say with the Ministers and their incredulous Flock This Ecclesiastical Ministery is of men subject to fall one may doubt after them for this would be to yield to the Temptation and no longer to believe the Promise We must say 't is of men with whom JESUS CHRIST promises to be and teach always then manger human weakness and all the Endeavours of Hell Rom. iv v. 18. against hope we believe in hope that we shall find eternally in their common
by virtue of this Promise the Church infallible exteriorly in the manifestation of the Truth renders her interiorly always fruitful If the Preachers of the Truth are by their corrupt Life unworthy of their Ministery GOD ceases not to make use of them for to sanctify his Faithful for he is able to vivify even by the Dead and a putrify'd Arm may become active in his hands Besides these true Believers known to GOD alone animate all the Ecclesiastical Ministery a small Number of these conceal'd Saints often suffices to render the Prayers of a whole Church efficacious the Conversion of Sinners will be often assoon the Effect of their secret Groans as the Fruit of the most illuminated Preachings Wherefore St. Augustin attributes the wholsom Effects of the Ministery to these good Souls for whom and by whom the Holy Ghost is fâ—lly in the Church But that the Ecclesiastical Power depends on them is what neither St. Augustin nor any of the Orthodox Doctors ever taught and Mr. Claude who cites them understands them not I will be fully seen when he shall publish his writing 't is sufficient for us in the mean time to have shewn that he is of those and GOD grant he be not so to the end Tit. iii. v. 2. that he is I say of those of whom St. Paul speaks that condemn themselves 'T is in effect according to this Apostle the true Character of all Heresies and never any Society more visibly bore this Character set down by St. Paul than the Pretended Reformed Church She condemns her self Vid. Sup. 1. Ref. p. 58. when not daring to affirm that she is infallible she sees her self nevertheless constrain'd to act as if she were and to bear witness to the Catholick Church by imitating her She condemns her self 2. Ref. p. 64. when she raises all the particular persons she teaches above her own Judgment and forcing them how ignorant soever they find themselves to examin after her without rendring them capable she renders them indocil and presumptuous She condemns her self 3 4 5 6. 7. Ref. p. 73. seq since Vaunting of the Scripturus she finds not in her self Authority enough to make them be receiv'd by her Followers on her Word but leaves her own Children to whom she presents them to be read in the Uncertainties of an human Faith She condemns her self 8. Ref. p. 88. when forc'd to own that she was not establisht but by breaking with all the Christian Churches which were in the World she gives her self the proper Character of all false Churches In fine she condemns her self 9 10 11 12 13. Ref. p. 91. seq when forc'd to acknowledge the perpetual Visibility of the Church in the Indefectibility of the Ministery she cannot maintain her self without acknowledging besides in the Ministery an universal Corruption nor without authorizing private persons against all the Succession of the Apostolick Order Now if she condemns her self in so many manners how happy would it be for her to condemn her self in fine by returning into the Bosom of the Catholick Church which never ceases to recal her to her Unity Let these Gentlemen no longer speak to us of the Abuses which make us groan The Evils of the Church are badly remedy'd by adding that of Schism Are they so happy or to say better so haughty and blind that they find nothing to be lamented amongst themselves and will they authorize so many Sects gone forth of their Bosom who complaining of their Disorders in the same Spirit of Pride and Discontent with which they heretofore so much exaggerated ours daily separate from them as they did from us Why do they not rather hear Charity it self Unity it self and the Catholick Church which tells them by the Mouth of St. Cyprian Cyp. Ep. 43. ad Confes Persuade not your selves our dear Brethern and dear Children that you can ever defend the Gospel of JESVS CHRIST by separating from his Flock from his Vnity and from his Peace Good Souldiers that complain of the Disorders they see in the Army ought to stay in the Field to remedy them by common advice under the Authority of the Captain and not go thence to expose the Army thus disunited to the Invasions of the Enemy Since then the Ecclesiastical Vnity ought not to be broken and that beside we cannot leave the Church to go to you Return return rather to the Church your Mother and our Fraternity to which we exhâ—rt you with all the earnestness of a true brotherly Love Amen FINIS