of the Bishops howe were these Elders the praesidents or Gouernours or not rather the gouerned And hee speaketh of them that obtained the honour of their gouernment or Praesidentship not by price of money but by testimonie All which accordeth with our Breth owne saiâ—ngs for the election of Bishops and pastorall Elders And hee speaketh of such tried and approued Elders as Paule in pastorall Elders gaue charge to Timothie But when withall he vseth for their gouernment that verie terme which he vsed in other places speaking also of the Christian assemblies as in his booke de Corona militis where he saith Eucharistia Sacramentum et in tempore victus et omnibus mandatum a Domino etiam ante-lucanis coetibus nec de aliorum manu quam de praesidentium sumimus The Sacrament of thanksgiuing is commanded of the Lord both in the time of repast in al times yea also in our asseÌ„blies before the breake of the daie neither do we receiue it at the hand of anie other thaÌ„ of those that are our PraesideÌ„ts or Gouernors Whereby it is plaine that those of whom heere he saith Praesident probati quique Sentores the Seniors that are Praesidents or that gouerne are euerie one of them tried or approued men wer euerie one of them none other but such as ministred the SacrameÌ„ts of consequence teachers of the word And of such Elders gouerning in the Church of Christ of none other speaketh Clemens Alexandrius who also was an elder in office in time was somwhat elder thaÌ„ TertulliaÌ„ li. 6. Siromat He is in verie deed saith he an elder of the Church a true Deacon that is a minister of Gods wil if so be he do teach the things that are of the Lord not that as he is ordained of meÌ„ neither that he must be accouÌ„ted righteous that is an elder but that he which is righteous should be brought into the eldership c. Wherein making also afterward the degrée of Elder to be in dignitie different from placed betwéene Bishop Deacon he acknowledgeth no such kinde of Elder gouerning the Church in hiâ— time that is not a teacher of the word And the same also is manifest in Irenaeus who in his first booke against heresies ca. 12. saith against the heretike Marcus Wherefore iustlie and aptlie vnto such thy blindnesse the diuine Elder and fit preacher of the truth inueighed against thee c. And in the 2. booke cap. 39. speaking both of Elder in age and office he saith of Christ And so hee was a Senior or Elder among the Seniors that he might be a perfect master in al things not only according to the exposition of the truth but according to age sanctifieng together also the Seniors or Elders himselfe becomming an example vnto theÌ„ c. And againe But because the age of 30. yeres is of a young man of his first towardnesse and stretcheth to 40. euerie one wil graunt that from the 40. or 50. yeres he now declineth into an elder age which age our Lord hauing he taught as the Gospell all the Elders testifie which assembled together vnto Iohn the Disciple of the Lord. And the same thing did Iohn deliuer vnto theÌ„ Now although herein Iraeneus fouly ouer shoote himselfe in Christs age more regarding the relation and tradition of the Elders than exactlie considering the iust time yet still he acknowledgeth those that were called Elders not in yéeres but in office concerning the Ecclesiasticall state of Christ his Church to be such as taught the witnesse relation of those things that were deliuered them by the Apostles though they remembred not so well the Apostles reckoning And this he hath more plaine li. 3. ca. 2. when againe we chalenge them that are against the tradition to come to that traditioÌ„ which is from the Apostles which is kept in the Churches by the succession of the Elders they will say they being more wise not only than the Elders but also than the Apostles haue found out the sincere truth And li. 4. ca. 43. Wherfore it behoueth vs to heare these Elders that are in the Church those which haue their succession from the Apostle as wee haue shewed who with the succession of the Bishop haue according to the decree of the Father receiued a sure grace or gift of the truth And in the next Chapter But such as of many are supposed to be Elders but serue their pleasures c. froÌ„ all such therefore we must abstaine cleaue vnto these which as wee haue also said before keepe the doctrine of the Apostles with their order of the Eldership shew forth the sound word their conuersation without offence to the information and correction of the residue Wherunto alleaging the examples of Moses Samuel and S. Paul he saith Euen as the Apostle Paul when he was of good conscience sayde to the Corinthians For we are not as many are adulterating the word of God wee haue corrupted nâ—ne we haue circuÌ„uented none such Elders doth the church nourish Of whoÌ„ also the Prophet saith And I will giue thee thy Princes in peace and thy Bishops in righâ—eousnesse Of whom also the Lord said VVho therefore is a faithfull agent good and wise whom the Lord shall preferre ouer his familie to giue them meate in time Happie is that seruant whom the Lord shall find so doing when he coÌ„meth What can be plainer than this to shew that by the name of these Presbyters Priests or Elders in the gouernment of the Church Irenaeus alwaies meant such as were teachers of the word and none other Iustine the martyr in his defence of the Christians vnto the Emperour Antoninus mencioneth as we haue séene one onlie gouernor of the congregation whom he calleth the chiefe brother But he telleth withal that he maketh the exhortation to the congregation before the receiuing of the Sacrament he offereth the praiers and thankesgiuing first celebrateth the whole action of the Lords supper the Deacons deliuer the bread the cup to euerie one present of other Elders or Gouernors among theÌ„ that I can find he maketh no mencion As for Ignatius because our Bre. in their pamphlet of the learned mans iudgemeÌ„t for the 3. kinds of Bishops do allow of the Bishop mencioned in Ignatius by as good reason they haue also to allow of his Elders Deacons For almost in euery Epistle if they be the Epistles of Ignatius he mencioneth especiallie these thrée maketh the Elders the successors of the Apostles In the first Epistle to the Trallians he saith Be ye subiect to the Elders as to the Apostles of Iesu Christ concerning our hope in whoÌ„ perseuering we shal be found in him And therfore ye must by all meanes please the Deacons which are for the ministerie of Iesus Christ for they are not ministers in meate and drink but of the ministerie of the Church of God
euerie Diocese and particular parish in the Realme the erection of a new Tetrarchie in euâ—ry seuerall congregation of Doctors Pastors Gouernours and Deacons by which fower estates offices all matters should be directed and all crimes eccl or ciuill censured by their discipline Yea they mount vp to the highest toppe euen of the Princes supreme gouernment Since that therefore these contentions haue aspired thus farre to the imminent daunger of all our whole estate though in an other sort than do our aduersaries in religion it is more than high time against these though otherwise in Christe our well meaning but misweening Brethren to enter into the necessarie defence of these be they matters or manners of such moment I am not ignorant that vnto many this labour wil be thought superfluous either of those that would haue these matters go forwarde without misliking or of some also that allowe them not Howbeit because they haue eyther before beene sufficiently trauersed in by other alreadie both pro contra or that now these controuersies if they be not dead and buried long ago yet the feruour of them is meetly well slaked therefore according to Pythagoras wise counsell ignem opertum noli fodere it were much better to let it alone than to rake abroade the fire that is couered in the cinders these men thinke this to be the best aunswere not at all to aunswere them but to passe theÌ„ oueâ— in silence and contemne them Whereby eyther the parties contending hauing wearied themselues in vaine will the sooner giue ouer or at least other will thinke the matters not worthy to be vouchsafed any aunswere And that to aunswere yea to confute them is but to prouoke further controuersies of which wee are pestred with too many and those not a little raysed or enkinled by often and intemperate disputing aunswering and replying one to an other And in very deede with them that thinke thus in some matters and manners of proceeding I my selfe am of their opinion For this licentiousnesse of writing such reciprocall inuictiues hath bred and breedeth much vnnecessarie trouble Notwithstanding as the Preacher among all other thinges that keepe the reuolution of their seasons reckoneth vp this there is a time to keepe silence and a time to speake when a matter groweth to importance and is vrged too importunately admitting it be a wrong and daungerous errour and yet on all sides it winneth fauour to let it so passe without all controlement what were silence then but grosse negligence the very yeelding to the errour and danger yea the wilfull betraying of the truth and consenting to the ouerture of our state And euen so fareth it in this matter The Papists from whose grosse errors in doctrine we both dissent and against whome in the vnitie and substance of Gods truth we both agree and for a while conioyntly we impugned their errors idolatrieâ— and superstitions at the first in defence of them they began to write freshly and stoutly against vs but when they saw they were not able that way to mainteine the badnesse of their cause they left off writing and followed for the most part this policie to seeme to despise all further triall by disputing and writing of the matter and would seeke to vphold it onely or chiefly by countenance and authoritie but finding againe the experience of this that Voluntas non potest cogi the will of man must be perswaded can not be compelled and that nullum violentum est perpetuum the thing that is only with violence coacted can not possibly continue and that in these controuersies all men are most desirous to be satisfyed with some aunswere or other they fall againe to writing though hardly driuen thereto vsing all the shifts they can to bodge vp the insufficiencie of their cause But in a good matter there neede no such practises True it is as I sayd before that the poynts to be discussed betwixt our Brethren and vs be nothing of such waight as those are wherein our Brethren and we do varie from the aduersaries in the mayne and principall standerds of our faith but are questions most what of discipline and of the Churches gouernment Neuerthelesse since that heerein also our Brethren haue not only made a breach from vs but they haue bred such further contention for them as in which a pacification is fo requisite that without it we see what broiles and daungers dayly growe to the disturbing of our owne estate to the aduantage of the publike aduersarie to the hinderance and obloquie of the Gospell It is necessarie therefore that as God be praysed we haue the truth in doctrine and defend it well not only by the authoritie of the Magistrate but by the words owne authoritie â—â—enly in writing by the Ministers thereof set foorth to all the world against all the resisters of the same so hauing as we trust a good established forme of the regiment discipline of our Church of England if any eyther of our professed aduersaries or of our malecontented Brethren shall withstand or write against it we are all obliged after the measure of each ones calling and habilitie to maynteyne and defend it and that not onely against the breakers of it by the Magistrates execution of authoritie but the Ministers no lesse in their vocation when it is openly written against are bound by their writing againe if the goodnesse of the matter be able so to iustifie it selfe to lay open all the whole state thereof by detecting and confuting all the paralogismes and fallations of the gaynesayers and by defending it euen with the firmenesse of the grounds and the owne good nature of the cause which manner of defence being not destitute of lawfull authoritie to see it obserued not only represseth the resisters bodie but satisfyeth or conuinceth his minde which is chiefly in these contentions to be respected And although this also be true that both our aduersaries in the controuersies of our religion and our Brethren in the questions of our regiment for such matters as then were moued haue beene by other of excellent learning sufficiently aunswered alreadie yet must we be still as ready to aunswere in defence of both these causes as either of them are ready to oppugne them seeing that God be thanked we mainteine nothing in our doctrine or in our regiment whereof we can not render a sound reason and sufficient proofe from the verie foundation of Gods word to mainteine it with a good conscience Howbeit sith that our Brethren cease not but as they first began these controuersies so they hold not yet themselues contented but Plus vltra they proceede further and to further matters and as they rise higher so more eagerly they presse vpon them not onely declaiming in the Pulpits as they get any oportunitie thereunto and exclaime if they be put to silence but also put vp billes and supplicationâ— at euery Parliament compile and scatter abroade their printed treatises insomuch that
Ministerie especialy as they were thē in practise may be imploied otherwise both for the attendance on the Pastors in the Ministerie of the word and Sacraments and also to prepare themselues to become fit Pastors afterwards whereupon now and then as necessitie or occasion hath serued and they found to be méete thereto the Ministerie also of the word and Sacraments hath béene permitted vnto them in the auncient yea in the Primitiue Church and at the very time of their institution or immediatly after as appéereth both by Stephen and Philip by whome we may iudge the like of all the residue for Stephen so soone as euer he was chosen Deacon was set vpon with diuers aduersaries in matter of doctrine who disputed with Stephen but they were not able to resist the wisedome and the spirite by the which he spake Actes 6.10 Whereupon saith Gualter Et quamuis de publicis concionibus c. And although nothing be spoken of his publike Sermons notwithstanding it is euident by the context of the hystorie that he had these both often and effectuall and very serious Wherefore by the way and as it were by digression we may heere see that the Deacons of the Primitiue Church were not altogether estraunged from the ministerie of the word but although they were chiefelie occupied about the dispensation of the Churches goodes neuerthelesse they imployed their labour also so farre as they might in the other ministeries of the Church that by this meanes according to the sentence of S. Paule they might get vnto themselues a good degree 1. Tim. 3. what a notable Sermon he made and what a rare and singular gift of the spirit of God in his preaching he had the 7. Chapter at large witnesseth Aretius vpon the 3. verse of the properties that Peter required in these Deacons saith Fourthly he returneth againe to the vertues to wit such as are meete for them to haue Full of the holy Ghost That they should haue certayne most sure notes of the holy Ghost such as at that time were to speake with tongs that they had not learned to worke miracles in the name of Christ to teach boldly in this teaching to ouercome the enemies and such like Also Full of wisedome that is that they be prouident and warie least they cast pearles to any dogs or swine but teach them that are to be taught but chiefely prudence was necessary for the Ecclesiasticall dispensation whereunto they are to be called And on the 5. verse of Stephens disputation with his aduersaries which saith he was of the Christian doctrine he saith Stephen no doubt did execute faithfully and constantly the office of a Deacon no lesse then Lawrence did afterward vnder Sextus and Vincentius vnder Valerius who bestowed the treasures of the Church vpon the poore But vnto these do come new vertues first he is full of faith that is of feruencie in teaching that faith c. The like we reade in the eight Chapter following of Philip one of the same companie of Deacons whome Aretius calleth the Doctor of the Samaritanes secondly sayth he heereunto perteineth a singuler example of Philip who happily instructed the Samaritanes First heere may be considered who that Philip was for there haue beene that haue thought him to be the Apostle but two strong arguments are against them in the context first that the Apostles were not dispearsed but aboade at Ierusalem but Philip was among those that were dispearsed therefore it was not Philip the Apostle Moreouer the Apostles onely could giue the holy Ghost but Philip could not do it And heereupon Iohn Peter are sent to the Samaritanes wherefore it can not be Philip the Apostle it is therefore the Deacon of whome we spake before Chap. 6. And Gualter affirming also the same addeth further First he teacheth whose ministery God vsed in conuerting Samaria it was that Philip not he that was the Apostle but he that before was reckoned vp among the Deacons as the auncient writers of the Church do testify with one consent chiefely Epiphanius writing of Simon and of the Simoniacks for although the parts of the Deacons were to beare the care of the common goodes of the Church and of the poore notwithstanding it was withall permitted vnto them to take on them the preaching of the Gospell if at any time necessity so required the which we haue hitherto seene in Stephens example And perhaps there was not so great vse of Deacons at Ierusalem when the Church was dispersed with the tempest of persecution and therefore they which before dispensed the publike goods of the Church gaue themselues wholy to the ministery of the word Yea and Paule admonished afterward that the Deacons by ministring well should get vnto themselues a degree vnto a greater function 1. Tim. 3. And as the ministration of the Sacraments followeth the preaching of the word so Philip baptized those whome he had by his preaching conuerted Neither is it noted that they did these things by reason of any other office annexed vnto them but as Gualter noteth verie well that in generally as they had gifts competent and occasion conuenient it was not impertinent to their office of Deaconship so to imploy themselues Whereupon also the Magdeburgenses note Centuria 1. lib. 2. cap. 7. pag. 508. saying Other were Deacons The office of these was to minister to the Table at Ierusalem so long as the community of goods was there Acts. 6. but neuerthelesse that they also taught and shewed foorth signes appeareth out of Stephen Actes 6. and Philip Actes 8.21 and euery where in other Churches it was the office of the Deacons to teach and to minister And the same Magdeburgenses in the title Deratione acforma gubernationis pag. 510. do say These were the works in common of the Apostles and Prophetes Pastors Doctors Priestes Deacons They taught the Church purely and sincerely concerning euery of the head points of the christian doctrine c. and that Deacons also taught appeareth out of the 6. and 8. of the Actes they interpreted the holy Scriptures c. they deliuered the Catechisme c. they did cut the word of truth rightly into the Law and the Gospell c. they vsed the forme of sound words in teaching c. they vsed also in teaching a simple kind of speech c. they studied to keepe the puritie of doctrine c. they opposed themselues sharply against false teachers and Hereticks and confuted their false opinions For Stephen Act. 6. confuted them that were in the synagog of the Libertines c. they preached repentance that is they reproued and blamed sinners for the Apostles Act. 2.3 and 4. did openly obiect vnto the Iewes this sinne and for the same reproue them that they had killed Iesus of Nazareth the iust and holy one the sonne of God and the Messias and Stephen Actes 7. calleth them murtherers and betrayers of
say wee are not able so much as to knowe them No nor yet their owne Consistorie gouernors able to knowe them but onely the teachers and preachers of the same to all others And what will they then allowe to vs If the Parliament heare this man speake thus may they not thinke that man speaketh reasons and that there was little reason in troubling them continually with those matters in the Parliament house whereof they may not according to the libertie of that most honorable assemblie speake their mynds in reuerent maner pro contra freely and no man debarred of his speech or iudgement or els the house would better aduise themselues how they permitted such fellowes to come among them or to bring in such billes or bookes among them of which they must be restrained of their libertie both of speech and iudgement Yea what if now another waxing bolder in the Parliament house would tell these faithfull ministers that the matters conteyned in this learned discourse being Ecclesiasticall matters were to be consulted vpon and determined by those that were the Bishops Pastors of the Realme and Church of England and that they had a Conuocation Synodall assemblie among themselues and that they must go to them and be tryed by theÌ„ and bee as well content to submit themselues to the determination of the Bishops and Pastors lawfully and orderly there assembled as they would to haue it tryed in the ParliameÌ„t if they were all such Eccl. persons as were the other And that if they would flee froÌ„ their owne coate Eccl. company to such as were but ciuill and politick persons saue that they were ChristiaÌ„s as other of the people were they should giue an ill example preiudice their matters and make themselues and their bookes to be more mistrusted as not daring to abide the censure of the chifest professors of those matters Tractent fabrilia fabri Ecclesiasticall matters to be tryed by Ecclesiasticall persons And that this is according to their owne â—ositions For who should be able to knowe at least wise who ought better to knowe what order comelinesse and edification requireth according to Gods worde than they that be teachers and preachers of the same vnto all others For it is absurd that they should be taught by such in these small things and much lesse in greater things as ought to learne the trueth of them in all matters And therfore go to theÌ„ and let theÌ„ determine those controuersies If our Bretheren shall heare this tale and their owne words thus duelie returned on themselues may they not then thinke they haue well helped themselues by putting vp these matters to the Parliament And if the Parliament should aunswer them thus should they not aunswer theÌ„ aright But if now they had rather reuoke some of their positions giue the ParliameÌ„t authority to deale herein than to haue them be determined by the Bishops what on the other side would they haue the Parliament do without the authoritie of the Prince Yea how chaunce they put not vp their bookes writings first to her Maiestie mooue her first for if they accounted her Maiestie indeed the supreme gouernor of all persons in al her dominions in all causes so wel Eccl. as temporall would they haue the Parliament decree those things without her Maiestie Or the Parliament wherof her Maiestie is the supreme gouernor to determine these things without any debating of them Or if they should be debated vpoÌ„ who should rather do it theÌ„ the Clergie And haue not al that haue bin assembled together alreadie both the Bishops the whole Conuocation consulted debated and determined alreadie on the matter And if they would haue her Maiestie the Parliament to deale further therein haue they not done that also Hath not her Maiestie ratefied and authorized al their articles that the Conuocation agreed vpon And hath not the whole Parliament also approued allowed so ratefied and confirmed al the Communion booke besides the acknowledgement of her Maiesties supremacie all the articles agréed and decréed vpon all or the most or chéefest of the lawes and orders Eccl. now standing in force and established amongst vs And would they haue them reuoke cancell all that they haue doone in these matters or what else would they haue the Parliament herein to doo If they offer to dispute of these matters either before the whole Parliament or before anie by the Parliament deputed to heare the disputation betwéene vs of these controuersies doo they hope to dispute better and with more deliberat iudgement of that they shall saie ex tempore than that they haue with aduisement written or can write thereon or that we can dispute woorse or not so well as they persuade themselues they can Or doo they thinke as Aeschines said Quid si ipsam belluam andissetis they shall better persuade and mooue the hearers of them more by their liuelie spéeches than by their learned writings and so win it that waies Verelie wée refuse no waie what it shall please our most gratious souereigne and hir most honorable counsell or the high court of Parliament to appoint if that would serue the turne for anie further triall of renewing neuer so often these matters by disputing and calling them in question againe and againe for God be praised in so good a cause we néed not feare the euent they that could so win the garland let them weare it But we maie easilie sée before the disputation shall begin that all this would not serue their turne in these controuersies which the word of God hath not expreslie decided but in generalitie referred to these thrée heads comlinesse order aedification Who shall iudge and determine of our disputation they haue before hand debarred the prince and all that are not teachers and preachers and both the parties in controuersie are teachers and preachers and they saie it were no reason that we being the parties in controuersie on the one side though we be teachers and preachers should be determiners iudges what is comlinesse order and edifieng in these things and maie not we saie the same to them againe that they being also parties in controuersie on the other side though they be teachers and preachers it is no reason that they should be determiners and iudges what is comlinesse order and aedifieng in these things and when shall then these matters be iudged and determined Except we would yéeld to them or they would yéeld to vs or both to some other as to hir maiesty and the ParliameÌ„t But if they shall so doo they should conuince themselues before hand that the forme is vntrue and false which they haue alredie before hand not onlie auowed to be true but so determined alredie and so before hand peremptorily prescribed both to vs and to the Parliament to the Quéens maiestie also that we must all yéeld of
alreadie written and by treatises lately and nowe published it may appeare we seeke that which at the least in the iudgement of all true Christians hath no small probabilitie as wee iudge necessitie of trueth out of the Scriptures it may please her most excellent Maiestie and their honors to appoint on both sides the best learned most godly and moderate men to debate al differences of waight betweene them and vs. So that first vppon sufficient consideration the Questions to be debated be without all ambiguitiâ— set downe the reasons of both sides without all outgoings shortly and plainely deliuered in writing ech to other that after vpon sufficient examination the reasons of both be continually confirmed and resolued till either by the euidence of trueth one partie yeelde vnto the other or the follie and madnesse of those which gaine-say it doe in equal iudgement become manifest in regarde of the contradictions and absurdities where-to they shall be driuen by the force of Gods worde It may appeare we graunt that our brethren haue both alreadie writâ—en bookes now lately published treatises but with what authoritie they could so doe that is another question if it be lawfull authoritie to do it both against lawe and authoritie we may shortly haue other vpon like ensample set out worse matters yea neuer so ill doctrine or matters neuer so much against the state For although they pretende their bookes and treatises to be neuer so good yet ought they not to be published but by good meanes also least if the good meanes be neglected ill thinges in like manner may be published But by what ill meanes soeuer they set out their bookes and treatises yet for the matter of them it may say they appeare we seeke that which at the least in the iudgement of all true Christians hath no small probabilitie as we iudge necessitie of trueth out of the Scriptures Fancie might make a man bowlt branne and thinke it is flower And euen so doe our brethren imagine in this necessitie But when we shall come to the examining of these bookes and treatises yea euen of this their learned discourse compiled in the name of all the faithfull ministers and of all their desires and of all that they say they seeke for we shall finde necessitie of trueth out of the Scriptures in no one thing of all their posâ—tions in controuersie except they vnderstande it so out of the Scriptures that is to say cleane without al scriptures or any necessarie consequence of scriptures And although probability ought not to carrie away the matter yet vpon better suruey thereof we shall finde not so much as any good probability that is grounded on the Scriptures but onely on the méere interpretations and sayings of some the chiefest persons in estimation on their side if at the least they agrée with them and are not caried away by their owne fancies as in the perusing of this learned discourse shall God willing appeare In the meane season sée héere how peremptorie our brethren are in their owne iudgement That which they seeke for is of no probability but as we iudge necessity say they yet they confesse that in the iudgement of all true Christians it is but of probability though saye they it hath no small probability So that they graunt at the least héereby that many if not al true Christians iudge that that which they seeke for hath no necessity of truth out of the Scriptures but hold themselues contented onely with probability For be it small or not small it is but probability of truth out of the Scriptures that they grounde themselues vpon yet think this hindereth not but that they still be al true Christians So that â—hey count them no true Christians in whose iudgement the thinges that our brethren seeke for haue not at the least great probability of trueth out of the Scriptures But if they can allow them to be al true Christians in whose iudgement these things stand but on the vncertainty of probability I trust we shal not léese our Christendome euer a whit the more â—or this but be true Christians yea their selues haue graunted vs euen in â—his Preface that we are their brethren and that we agrée in the substaÌ„ce of religion with them and therfore of necessity if they be true Christians we be true Christians also and yet we openly and constantly anow that the most and greatest of the things that they seeke for haue not at the least any probability of truth out of the Scriptures in our iudgements yea in my iudgement not one of them al any good probability but we al confesse they haue no necessity This therefore was too vnaduisedly and too peremptorily spoken and vpon too great a confidence in their cause as to hazard the truth of our Christianity for not iudging these things to bee at least probable But let the necessity or probability be tried in the debating and weighing of them let vs now sée how they woulde haue them debated and weighed It may please say they her most excellent Maiestie and their honors to appoint on both sides the best learned most godlie and moderate men to debate all differences of weight betweene them and vs. This is a good beginning that they will yéelde to her most excellent Maiestie and their honours yet at the least thus much if they woulde stande to this but when it shall come to the debating wayghing or determining they giue her Maiestie and their honours no authoritie at al. Yea they haue their selues alreadie debated weighed iudged determined and prescribed these thinges and that for necessitie in their iudgements before they come to this conference as shal also appeare by these their learned discourses and is it likely they will yéelde and reuoke this their principles set foorth in print and diuulged to all the worlde by our reasoning afterwarde with them howesoeuer by reasoning we should euict them Had it not béene better not to haue vaunted thus before hande on such necessitie and prescription But they say The best learned most godlie and moderate men on both sides should be appointed to debate al differences of weight betweene them and vs. For their partes they so glorie both of their learning and godlines that they giue this booke two titles in the one for godlinesse and moderatenesse A declaration of the desires of the faithfull ministers not prescribing but moderatly desiring in the other for their learning A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment Thus haue they set foorth themselues for these vertues But thankes be to God that they graunt yet some of our side to be also both learned godly and moderate men What the learning is of many God be praysed on our side let the learned iudge Moderation is more easily discerned as the Apostle saieth Phil. 4.5 Let your moderate or patient minde be knowen to all men But since our brethren
graunt they can be godlie to and yet dissent from all these thinges that our brethren seeke for it argueth that they are not of such necessitie but that men may be learned moderate and godly to though not onely they haue not these thinges that our Brethren seeke for but that also they be of a contrarie opinion And if this may be so among the learned I sée not why it may not be so likewise among the vnlearned and so among vs all in generall Our learning our modestie our godlinesse is no whit preiudiced by the want or refusall of these things that our brethren seeke for And if it be no preiudice to these thrée vertues no more is it preiudice to any other and so these thinges that our brethren seeke for may be altogether as well spared as receiued nor haue anie necessitie at all in them But nowe since they on their side which likewise we denie not in thē but so farre foorth congratulate the same vnto them shall haue both learned godly and moderate men also yet would wee gladly vnderstande this whether this shal be counted a péece of their moderation to vse such broade language as hath passed alreadie euen in the giuing this aduice nay would God it might cease here but all this learned discourse is pestered with such and with more immoderate spéeches against the poore ministers against all the Bishops and against all vs their brethren yea against the Prince and all the whole state of the Church Me thinketh if we should haue moderate men on their side also that wee might make good exception against all these that call themselues here all the faithfull ministers as not moderate men But vpon hope of their better moderation on this moderate admonition our request vnto them is that at leastwise for the time of this debating they would lay aside al this so peremptorie vrging of necessitie with all these and such other vndecent termes and violent demeanour in this conference Well nowe when her Maiestie and their honours shall haue agréed vpon the men how shall they procéede in handling the matter So that first say they vpon sufficient consideration the questions to be debated be without all ambiguitie set downe This first point so farre as it stretcheth is right good reason and we holde well with it that the questions to be debated should be set downe vpon sufficient consideration had of them and then beeing sufficiently considered to be matters requisite to be debated vppon to be set downe without all ambiguitie But here-vpon ariseth another question and me thinketh no lesse to be also sufficiently considered who shall haue this sufficient consideration of the questions that are to be set downe whether they be fit questions or no And who shall cut off all ambiguities that the questions may be cleare and plaine What shall anie of the parties themselues or both the parties that must debate and dispute vppon them Or shall her Maiestie and their honours that appointed the parties appoint the Questions Or some other learned godlie and moderate men but also appointed by them to be the moderators of the disputation betwéene them If now such moderators shall- be agréed vpon also to allow of the questions that shall- be set downe how shall they begin to procéed in reasoning The reasons say they of both sides without all out-goeings shortlie and plainelie deliuered in writing each to other What And shall they doo it then all by writing Indéed that is a sure way for by that meanes there shall be lesse escapes of the partie reasoning and lesse euasions from his aduersarie and lesse moouing the affections of the hearers with the action of the person when the reasons are deliuered in writing And the other partie so receauing the arguments shall againe with more aduisement and lesse perturbing peruse and weygh the force of the reasons and more shortlie and plainelie without all out-goings graunt denie or distinguish the same And they againe receiuing this answer in writing which the partie auoweth to stand vnto may better perceiue what they haue to confirme or to impugne and still on both sides with the lesse explication of their senses by mouth goe more roundlie and resolutelie to the argument it selfe setting aside all circumstances till at length the one side be driuen to a demurre or issue that all that argument must relie vpon and looke for the finall sentence and determination of the matter But what shall we héere doo Who shall now determine that issue betwéene them Shall the foresaid moderators or anie other iudges For their spéeches séeme to allow none But that the disputers among themselues it all determine all the matter or without anie determinations take it for a cleare case as though it were determined For saie they That after vpon sufficient examination the reasons of both be continuallie confirmed and resolued till either by the euidence of truth one part yeeld vnto the other or the follie and madnesse of those which gainesai it doo in equall iudgement become manifest in regarde of the contradictions and absurdities whereto they shall be driuen by the force of Gods worde And might we conceiue anie assured hope that if our bretheren were by this meanes conuicted that then they would yeelde Or if they or we had anie such madnesse or follie not to yeelde but still to gaine-saie the euidence of truth and incurre contradictions and absurdities wherevnto they or we should be driuen by force of Gods word should none betwéene them and vs haue this equall iudgement to make this become manifest This therefore were to leaue the matter still vndetermined except there were also some appointed to be in equall iudgement betwéene the parties the determiners of the matter As for our parts we neuer refused or by Gods grace shall refuse anye waie that her Maiestie and their honors shall thinke méete whereby our brethren might be satisfied But we shall sée in this learned discourse how their selues except they also be the onelie determiners of the questions betwéene vs reaching euen to the highest pointe of the Princes authoritie vtterlie reiect both this and all other waies for the finall determination of them But now supposing all will fall out well on their side they procéed saying Which waie though it should come naked vnto vs cannot well be refused but being richlie attired with all robes and ornaments which the scripture giueth vnto the synodicall assemblies for such conferences as namelie that there be much searching of the truth by sufficient reasoning without all by matters quarrels euasions and coulours whatsoeuer that there be much order when the spirit of euerie prophet shall be subiect vnto the spirits of other prophets and the iudgement of all shall be sufficientlie heard without stopping of free and sufficient aunswer without lordlie carrying awaie of the matter with no substance of reason where no authoritie pregnancie of wit plausible persuasion of mans
occasion to search these fathers better And this was vsed to be done not onely in the seuerall treatises of the Fathers according to the councell of Vincentius Lyrinensis and as Theodoret vseth in his dialogues c. but also in all the best and most famous Synodicall assemblies and disputations holden in the auncient councels to cite the testimonies of the godly fathers deceased and of the most famous fathers consentes that were then liuing for their interpretations and iudgements of their controuersies Neither ought our Brethren to shunne this manner of charging them with men dead or aliue For it is a good not adorning only of the trueth but finding out of the trueth lightning of the iudgement and mouing mens affections driuing them as with a mightie streame to the loue of the truth and when the trueth commeth indéede thus adorned wee thinke that which wee also labour to confirme and defende as they labour to procure the contrarie that none we doe not say can iudge otherwise then we doe but that they which doe iudge otherwise then we doe in these matters may haue sufficient cause to iudge as we do and to thinke them to be honorable not onely before men but before God also Nowe when our Brethren haue set downe al their deuise how they would haue these controuersies to be debated then they enter into the aunswere of the obiections which they suppose will be obiected against them and say For if any shall obiect that the graue authoritie of Archbishops and Byshops shall receaue a checke whilest they are brought to deale with those whom they iudge fewe young vnlearned and not comparable to themselues or that it is a chalenge not much vnlike the papistes or lastly that it shall bee preiudiciall to the estate of gouernement established In good time our Brethren remember among other these thrée obiections Neither are they of small moment being rightly set downe as indéede they may be more pithily obiected and require euerie one of them a sounde and sufficient aunswere It is no small matter if any shall obiect but this first and lightest obiection of these thrée that the graue Authoritie of Archb. and Bishops shall receaue a checke whilest they are brought to deale with those whom they iudge fewe young vnlearned and not comparable to themselues Albeit I thinke that neyther our Archbyshops nor Bishops doe Iudge of these our brethren that they be so fewe as it were better they were but rather too many at the least farre moe in number than our Archbishops or all our Bishops are neyther do they iudge them to be so young although manie of them indéede be very young both in yeares in iudgement and in experience of these matters but that the auncienter sort of them might for their age and time haue had leysure ynough to haue sought out the state and grounde of these questions long a-goe saue that they are too much fore grounded in their owne opinions But in these matters their youth or age is not called into question Neither doe our Archbishops or Bishops estéeme our brethren at least many of them for vnlearned but rather wish that they would not thinke and vaunt too much of their learning and if they would followe the Apostles counsell sapere ad sobrietatem it would better become them That when all is done is the best learning which findeth out and submitteth it vnto the trueth Neither doe the Archbishops and Bishops as I suppose iudge that our brethren are not comparable to themselues Although our brethren may remember there be thrée degrées of comparison and it might well ynough beséeme our brethren so to compare with the Archb. and Bishops that they would not forget their owne callings nor the dignities of the Archb. and Bishops which they call here their graue authoritie Howbeit they giue that tenne but in a light mockage to thē whē as indéed they acknowledge the Archb. or B. not to haue anie authoritie at all but labour by all meanes besides their scoffe to be in all respects specially of authoritie so comparable to thē that they would not onely giue them a checke as their equalles but as their superiors euen checke mate vtterly to foyle and ouerthrow them Which if they can do by all their learning and in such maner as is requisite for the matter let thē not spare it a Gods blessing And if our Archb. and Bishops or any other of our partie that otherwise are as readie as any of our brethren to giue account of their hope and faith to anie orderly asking the same shal-be by her most excellent Maiestie and by her most honorable Counsell brought to deale with anie of all these our brethren I dare aduenture that they will not disdayne by any lawefull and godly meanes that can be deuised to deale with them if our brethren for their part would oblige themselues to stand there-to As for the second obiection it is of greater moment that this our bretherens chalenge is not much vnlike to the chalenge of the Papistes And can our brethren also foresée this that anie may obiect this vnto them that they make like chalenge to our Bishops as doo the Papists And are they neither afraid nor ashamed of it to drawe so neare the chalenge of the common aduersarie against their brethren and fathers in Gods church And yet the third obiection is the greatest that it shall- be preiudiciall to the estate of gouernment established which if it be sée what a hazard they put not so much the Archbishops and Bishops and manie other persons vnto besides the lawes and orders ecclesiasticall as the whole estate of the Church and realme of England and of all the gouernors as well as of the gouernement and so withall of all the ciuill and politike lawes established yea of her Maiesties owne estate gouernment and sacred person to be indangered Which obiection how they can sufficientlie answer vnto is an answer indéed worth the hearing For if now they can-not sufficientlie answer these obiections which here their selues before-hand presuppose will be or may be obiected against them it had béene better for them to haue suppressed these obiections Which will be a sore blanke to all their learned discourse following in the iudgement of the prudent and godlie reader Let vs now therefore sée their answer to the obiections And first in generall to them all thrée they say It may please their wisdomes who are to be iudges to consider what we haue to answer vnto these things which if they haue the truth of Gods word conteine the safest and best way in such cases tend to the full quieting of all and the remoouing of the plagues which are vpon vs and are likelie dailie further to come euen from the common aduersarie we may boldlie yet most humblie vpon our knees require them before God and all his elect Angels not to cast it awaie
What a strange and sleeuelesse answer haue we heere to so direct and important obiections I referre it to the iudgement of whosoeuer shall be Iudges of this their answer And I beléeue it will pose their wisedoms to iudge and misse nâ—t what the meaning is of this our brethrens answer For first whome doe they meane héere in these wordes It maye please their wisedomes who are to be Iudges to consider what we haue to answer vnto these things Doe they meane the Readers of these their writings Or doo they meane some to be appointed to be iudges of thâ— controuersies in the foresaid conference and debating But when they set downe all the order of that conference they so little mentioned anyâ— iudges that they would haue the matter so examined onelie on both sides till by the euidence of truthe the one part yeeld vnto the other or the follie and madnesse of those which gaine-saie it do in equall iudgement become manifest Héere is mention indéed of equall iudgement but it appeareth that they would haue the parties onelie not anye iudge or vmpiere betwéne the parties to determine the matter which is the thing that we thinke verie necessarie But they thinke the matter would be so cleare that it should néed no such iudges nor in yâ— conference they arâ— answerers or defendants but chalengers as here they confesse â— yet herâ— they speake of those that are to be iudges of their answer vnto these things which I vnderstand for their answer vnto these three obiections And so I like wise make the same request with them That it may please their wisedomes who are to be iudges that is to saye as I vnderstand them the readers of their answer to consider indéed and to weigh well what they haue to answer vnto these things at least-wise what they dâ—â— answer vnto them For if they haue to answer anye thing else whie diâ— they not héere set it downe Except they reserue somewhat for a further answer which the readers wisedome cannot nor is not to consider vntill they shew it In the meane season the readers or iudges wisedomes whosoeuer and their owne wisedomes too that made this answer shall â—ndâ— them-selues worke inough to consider of this their answer héere maâ—â— vnto these things which if they haue the truth of Gods word conteine the safest and best waie in such cases c. Sée how they make these things to hang together they desire the iudges wisedome to consider what they haue to answere vnto these things What are these things that the readers or iudges should consider Are they not héere desired to consider of their answer to these their obiections which them-selues say may be obiected against them Now when they say on these things that is these three obiections which if they haue the truth of Gods word c. Then say I let their wisedomes consider who are to be iudges what our brethren can answer that shall be able to confute euen these things that is these three obiection Except our brethren will take vpon them to confute the truthe of Gods word Sed magna est veritas praeualet But if they shall not meane by this their answer vnto these things their answer vnto these three obiections how shall the iudges wisedomes be able to knowe what they should consider if our brethren meane by these things the waie of reconciliation that they set downe before how saye they héere these things conteine the safest and best waie in such cases if they vnderstand by these things which they speake of héere the waye it selfe that before they spake of â— And if they meane those things that they set downe in that waie what meane they héere in saying they will answer vnto these things when them-selues set those things downe as meanes and rules to be obserued in the conference and not as questions or as obiections mooued either of vs or yet of themselues or of any other to be by them answered at all vnto But the safest and best waie me thinketh in such cases as these vncerteine spéeches are which tend neither we nor I thinke themselues that wrote them can well tell whervnto is to let them alone without aâ—ye answer nor to comber anie readers or iudges wisdomes in further considering of them except their selues shall- be able and will vouchsafe to tell what they ment by these things and by these words that they vtter as it were in riddles so confusedlie that Magis opus est Oedipo quam iudice to decide them As for that they adde that they tâ—nd to the full quieting of all where-vnto soeuer these things and these words also of our brethren tâ—nd the full quieting of all is a good thing so it be a quieting in goodnesse and doone by good order Would God our brethen that haâ—â— begun these troublesome contentions would yet nowe at length submit themselues to a full quieting of all But they tell vs of one thing and go about in this discourse the cleane contrarie Yea to make all the wholâ— estate more out of quiet then we be The setting out of such discourses aâ— this is tendeth so little to any full quiet of all that it is the verie readiest waie to disturbe all with a soule disquieting And the remoouing saye they of the plagues which are vpon vs and are like dailie further to come euen from the common aduersarie We haue no greater plague vpon vs then these ciuill wars that our brethren haue begun And her Maiestie their honors besides the Archb. Bishops and all we to our habilities with all lenitie hetherto haue laboured to remooue Would God our brethren that began this plague would not continue and encrease it But they prognosticate that there are more plagues that are like dailie further to come euen from the common aduersarie The more haue our brethren to answer that knowing or fearing this will not cease plaguing both themselues and vs with these vnnecessarie contentions If they would needs haue begone them they should at least haue forborne till we had ouerpast all the dangers comming from the common aduersarie But saye they We may boldlie yet most humblie on our knees require them before GOD and all his elect Angels not to cast it awaie How doo they make this conclusion depend on the premisses And who are they whom thus boldie yet most humblie on their knees they may require them Is it the Archbishops and Bishops But neither they require such humilitie of our brethren nor our brethren will make any request in such humble manner to them Or is it those of whome before they said who are to be iudges not telling who those iudges were whether some appointed by hir Maiestie and her most honorable counsell or the readers nor whereof they should be iudges whether of the conference or of these things to wit of these obiections or of their answer there-vnto or of the controuersies in this
by that reason wherby they suppose to auoyd Popery most of all and that is by the erection of their Consistories Vnto which if the people or the Seniors or the cheefeste in the congregation were inclined they might do much more hurte then now they are able to doe Or if it bred not Popery it might breede and nourish as great errours pride and oppressions as Popery hath done if not a great deale worse And as vppon ignorance and poperye the thirde followed that is to say an inclination to rebellion so it may bee feared that his alteration being thus asmuche subiecte to the two former euils it would not be free from daunger of the thrd especially the peoples intermedling in the gouernement being so much enlarged except some greater vigilancie be had then as yet by our brethren is fore-séen or then in the estate of gouernment already established is to be feared For of this gouernement established wee haue seene already the experience and therefore beeing orderly looked vnto if any such occasion as GOD forbid shoulde happen it might the sooner be repressed as God be praised it hath bene But if this vrged alteration should bee put in practise not onelie the Papists might sooner take occasion of newe tumultes as it many times falleth out in alterations especially of the forme of gouernement established but also it is not a litle to bee feared that our brethren disagreeing from vs and not agreeing among them-selues might in these licentious and factious dayes breake forth into more contentions and pertakinges then that the particuler Seniories of euery congregation or the Prouinciall Synods were able to compose Whilest our brethren withal in this Learned discourse reiecte and deride vniformity in Ceremoniall constitutions pag. 120. refuse and exclude the Princes authoritie in the decision of such matters pag. 117.141 c. The Papistes in the meane season beeing the lesse looked vnto and the more strengthened encouraged to blow the coales to make a blast on euery sparkle when they get any aduauntage by such occasions of our disagreements which whole matter it might breed and nourish to the preparation of RebellioÌ„ manie that are no euil-willers vnto these our brethreÌ„ do greatly feare the sequell if this vrged alteration should take place Neither may it bee sayde of them as Dauid sayde of the wicked Trepidauerunt vbi non erat timor For they feare God and wishe as-well both to the estate of the church and common wealth of this our Realme as any of our brethren do and are as farre from Popery as they are God bee praysed for it But whatsoeuer they feare or coniecture to and fro of the euent of these 3. euils IgnoraÌ„nce in the minist Popery RebellioÌ„ I for my part would fain know what our brethreÌ„ mean by these words that lie houering in the midst of this senteÌ„ce Amongst many other things of great importance what those other things be being many of great importance as though they were more to be auoyded then all these 3. and yet are namelesse nor dare shewe their faces I feare mée least in this darke cloud there is hidd some great tempest and daungerous thunder-claps if it were their tyme to breake forth Sed aliquid latet quod non patet and therefore let them go as they came for mee I will rather follow Pythagoras counsel Noli fodere ignem opertum it is shrewd waking the sleeping Dog For the viewe but euen of these 3. euils is already me thinketh more then inough We can fore sée little perfection of the estate of the Church or good of the common-wealth to arise by the vrging this alteration And thus much to their aunswere of the matter now to the manner The two foresaid obiections were these The one that this our brethrens challenge is not much vnlike the Papists the other that it shal be preiudiciall to the estate of gouernment established To this againe they aunswere Concerning the manner they call it to a suddaine and tumultuous reasoning where the readiest wit the beste memorye the moste filed speech shall carry awaye the truthe at least meruelously moue the vngrounded heaâ—ers Who are these they that do on this wise If the Papistes bee meant they vse indéed such worse practises in their tumultuous reasoning syea in their most solemne councels that they cal general But if by this they our brethren meane vs their brethren Protestants as it appeareth heerby that we shunne not the reasoning with them of these matters so if they complaine of any iniury offered vnto anie of them in the manner of reasoning they should haue done plainly to haue shewed who hath called them to reason in any such suddaine tumultuous or disordred manner I haue rather heard the contrarie that they their-selues haue oftentimes and not long agone called the matter to such reasonings But belike they fayled in their hoped successe of such suddain reasonings which notwithstanding themselues haue prouoked when they shoulde bee driuen to the strict and logicall order of disputing and therefore they call this a suddaine and tumultouse reasoning As for vs. we vse no tumultes or tumultuous reasoning neither God be praised need to vse any for defence of the estate of gouernment established they commonly startle rayse tumultes that finde them-selues greeued and would make alteration of the state of a gouernment that is established But I meruel they coÌ„plain of these things where the readiest wit the best memory the moste filed speech shall carry away the truthe at leaste meruelously moue the vngrounded hearers For euen by these things especially wherein also they glory not a little and not by any grounded matter or anie substantiall prooues our brethren carry away from the truthe of these points so many as they do But belike they haue founde in reasoning them-selues ouer-matched in these ornaments of witte memory and speech also Which thrée things we confesse are aduauntages of no smal force a readie wit a good memory and a filed spéech to set forth and perswade the matter when they are ioyned with the wissdome and feare of God with a sincere zeale and feruency of Gods truth with an humble moderate spirit cutting the word of God aright as best maie serue to his glorie to that hearers edifying their dutifull obedience to their superiors For our dram of discretion of these vertues is more woorth in reasoning of these controuersies then al the pregnancie or readines of wit then al the promptnes or fidelitie of memory then al the rowling of the tongue or filed speeche with the smoothest and most eloquent rhethoricke in the world shouldâ— bee compared there-vnto Wel may vngrounded hearers that desire still to heare of Nouelties with the Athenians and the vnstable hearts of new-fangled heades and itching eares of those men or weomen which are euer learning as saith the Apostle 2. Tim. 3.7 and are neuer able to come to the
knowledge of the truth be eastly caried away from the truth by such perswasions But thanks be giuen to God we vse no such practises but plainly speak the words of truth and sobernesse and are readie when we shal at anye time be called there-unto to render an aunswere to euery one that asketh a reason of the hope that is in vs or of any thing pertayning to our vocations without tumults as becommeth both faithfull Christians and obedient subiects to our prince and superiors in defence of the gouernement established But we say our brethren meaning for them selues and excluding vs we require that where both sides may vppon mature and sufficient deliberation be heard without any of these shewes and the matter deliuered vnto her Maiestie their honours and whosoeuer they shall choose to receaue and examine the allegations of both sides so that it neede not to be communicated vnto the people vntill the manifeste lighte of the truth first appeare vnto them This then is the manner that our brethren set downe whereby they would vrge the alteration and as the obiection saith be preiudiciall to the estate of gouernment established But let the preiudice thereof fall out as it should if our brethren woulde indéede content them-selues with this manner of triall Neither do we nor I hope shall we at any tyme being lawfully called there-unto refuse this manner Yea euen according to the prescription of this manner for the principall points there-of haue we already procéeded long ago Where the estate of the gouernment before established in popery and the estate of the gouernment now established vnder the Gospell hath on both sides vppon mature and sufficient deliberation bene heard without any of these shewes if any were vsed either of the one side or the other And the matter also hath beene deliuered to her Maiesty and to their honours or to whomsoeuer that were chosen or appointed by her Maiesty and them to receaue and examine the allegations of both sides and so was this estate of gouernement by her Ma. and their honours yea by al the estates of the realme determined decreed approued ratified confirmed practised mayntayned continued and by all these fore-said meanes and manner established And this was done also partlye in the time of the most renownieâ— Prince King Henrie the eight and again better in the reigne of the moâ—â— godly Prince King Edward the sixt But chieflie in the beginning and some parts ther-of in some other Synods and Parliaments besides other more particuler conferences deliberations since the happy reigne of our most gratious soueraigne Lady Queene Elizabeth And yet all this will not now satisfie our brethren but they will haue the matter fetched again about as though it were fresh to beginne or had neuer yet by so good a manner and meanes as these bene hetherto disputed examined or deliberated vpon But would once more serue their turne No nor I think one hundred or thousand times moe except it were concluded in al points euen as they themselues would haue it But how they would agrée amoÌ„â— them-selues and when and how long that agréement would hold God hâ— knoweth For my part I sée little hope of reconciliation in the matter by this manner which they héere set down God forgiue me if I think amisse Neither do I speake it of euill will vnto them to whom I wish in Christe as to my self nor for that I would shunne the conference in such manner if I poore soule were worthy to be called among other ther-vnto but only to shewe that in very déede this is but a meere pretence to countenaÌ„ce the matter howsoeuer their entent I graunt be good zealous in the alteration of the estate of gouernment established But if they intend indéede such a manner of deliberation as they haue héere declared who shal determine al the matter Her Maiesty is named and their Honours and whosoeuer they shall choose But whereto are they named Or wherto shal they choose anie Forsooth to receaue and examine the allegations on both sides What meane they hereby would they haue her Maiestye or them to be scrutators and noters of the voyces who giueth on this side who on that and so to examine which side hath mo voices or meane they by receauing and examining the allegations to take to marke and examine their reasons yet neither to determine any thing at al of them nor to ratifie that which the appointed iudges shall determine But how then shall the manifeste light of the truth first appeare vnto them except they shall so farre forth determine of the matter that either on this or on thâ—â— side the truth consisteth But when the matter is thus determined what shall now be done it shall then be communicated to the people And what now shal the people doe shall they determine againe on the matter after her Maiestie their honours or others whosoeuer by her Maiesty and vnder her Ma. by their honours assigned or chosen shall haue once determined of the matters and communicated the same vnto the people Shall they vndoe all that hath bene done if they mislike it or cannot agree vpon it wherto then serued all this manner of their doing No her Maiestie onelye in this manner or their Honours assigned by her Maiesty or they whosoeuer are chosen by her Maiesty and them must be not onely the receauers and examiners of both sides but also the iudges and determiners as to whome the light of the truth shall first appeare and then it must be committed to the people to knowe only what they must obey and stick vnto without any further gain-saying and there an ende This is the manner as I take it that here our brethren desire of their disputation If now it be thus hath not her Ma. vppon mature deliberation of the allegations on both sides and that not by her selfe but with their Honours and by them whome she with their honours hath chosen determined on the approbation of the matter and divulged her and their determination or approbation to the people alreadie and where are our brethren then Wil they desire to haue it yet once againe examined better because perhaps al these learned discoursers haue not beene called to anie such disputation conference or deliberation But what now if her Ma. their honours and those that are by her Ma. and their honours chosen shall thus determine or approue and ratifie againe that which is already determined will our brethren then for euer héereafter stand any more to her Ma. and their determâ—nation then now they do If they wil whie stande they not now to that her Maiesty hath already established and to her constant auowing still of the same Nay rather why haue they clean already forsaken in this their learned discourse following all this deuise both for manner matter where-of they make all this so glorious pretence and shewe in this their Preface there-unto For
or house of God ought to be directed in all thinges according to the order prescribed by the housholder himselfe Which principle is true within the boundes thereof that is to say in all thinges that he hath prescribed But if he haue not prescribed all thinges appertayning to the externall gouernment of his Church or house then are those thinges which are not prescribed by the housholder himselfe not to be so vrged as that they ought necessarily this way or that way to be alwayes directed The Apostle Hebr. 8. verse 5. saith out of Exod. 25. verse 40. Moses was warned by God when he was about to finish the Tabernacle See sayde he that thou make all thinges according to the paterne shewed to thee in the mount But the Apostle proceeding in the ninth Chapter verse 11. applying this first Tabernacle to the second which he calleth a greater and more perfect Tabernacle not made with handes that is not of this building meaning the naturall bodie of Christe referreth not this to the mysticall bodie which is the Church or house of God and much lesse to the externall forme of regiment in all matters ecclesiasticall or belonging to the Churches gouernment No not when before chap. 3. verse 1. c. he speaketh both of Christ himselfe and of his house or Church also Therefore sayeth he holy brethren partakers of the heauenly vocation consider the Apostle and high Priest of our profession Christ Iesus who was faithfull to him that hath appointeâ— him euen as Moses was in all his house For this man was counted woorthie of more glorie thâ—n Moses in asmuch as he that hath builded the house hath more honour than the house For euery house is builded of some man and hee that hath built all thinges is God Nowe Moses verelie was faithfull in all his house as a seruant for a witnesse of the thinges which should be spoken after but Christe is as the sonne ouer his owne house whose house wee are if we holde fast the confidence and the reioysing of the hope vnto the ende Here againe we sée that this faithfulnesse in all his house as Moses was faithful is not to be reckoned as though he went about to shewe vs that all pointes of the externall regiment of the house or Churche of Christe haue a prescribed order by which they ought to bee directed in all thinges but that in the inwarde and spirituall regiment thereof we should acknowledge Iesus Christ the sonne of God to be the Lord and owner of this house and to consider him as the Apostle and high Priest of our profession that is of our Christian faith and religion and to confirme our faith in him that wee are his house or Church if wee holde fast not this or that externall forme of Ecclesiastical gouernment but the confidence and reioysing of hope vnto the ende And thus farre foorth and not furder we admit this second principle or proposition And this is necessarie to be obserued because this principle is here set downe in such captious order as insinuating that Christ had prescribed an order in all thinges in his house or Church according to the prescription whereof all thinges ought to be directed In which sense it is no principle but a question betwéene vs which wâ— denie and our brethren affirme but as yet they haue not prooued it The thirde saye they is a manifest trueth beleeued of all them that acknoweledge the Scripture of God to bee a perpetuall rule of all our life and able to make the man of God perfect prepared to all good workes Here againe another caption is to be taken héede of in this their thirde principle which order is not to bee learned else-where but in his holie woorde For if they meane it of the order that in his holie worde he hath prescribed true it is that order is not to be learned any where else as anie necessarie prescription otherwise then as an exposition of the same order for our more cleare and fuller learning thereof And so alwayes kéeping the foundation the godlie fathers and expositors may builde there-on and the godlie gouernours of the Church may beautifie and adorne the same so that all be doone to Gods glorie and to the true edifying of the Church And so this third proposition is a manifest trueth beleeued of all them that acknowledge the scripture of God to be a perfect rule of all our life and able to make the man of God perfect prepared to all good workes But it followeth not héere-upon that all generall or particuler orders in the externall gouernement of the Church are not else-where to bee learned but in Gods holie woorde except they meane by Gods holie worde such as are inclusiuely comprehended and not expresselie specified in his holie worde For they their selues haue not all their orders expressely mentioned and in all thinges prescribed in Gods holy worde For example their owne communion booke entituled The forme of Common prayers administration of the Sacramentes c. They dare not auowe that all thinges therein conteyned haue not beene learned else-where but in his holie worde and are there to be founde eyther in plaine woordes or necessarie implication but because they thinke that they are not contrarie they dare auouch thus farre to call them Agreeable to Gods worde And yet as though the agreeablenesse also might be called in question they adde héere-to And the vse of the reformed Churches And as their owne booke of Common prayers vseth all these helpes to saue all vpright for feare they might be chalenged in this poynt euen so this booke which our bretheren commende vnto vs to be A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment prooued by the worde of God wee shall finde in the discourse thereof that the learned discoursers learned not all the orders prescribed there-in out of Gods holie worde but somewhat else-where Except they will likewise say it is agreeable or not contrarie to Gods holie worde Wherein also we shall God willing sée how they faile But if that answer may thus serue them I sée not whie it may not as well serue vs if we haue no other gouernement established but such as is agreeable and not contrarie to the holie word of God although it be not in his holie word expresselie prescribed Neither dooth this text of S. Paule 2. Tim. 3.17 anie more infringe euerie order in the churches gouernement that it maye not be learned else-where but in Gods holie worde then it dooth infringe euerie other order in the ciuill policie or administration of euerie mans morall behauiour that their orders also are not to be learned else-where but in Gods holie word Bicause thiâ— is a manifest truth beleeued of all them that acknowledge the scripture of God to be a perfect rule of all our life and able to make the man of God perfect prepared to all good workes But it sufficeth for such orders as
life should euen bowe down their myndes to loue the Gospell of Iesus Christe and his sincere Religion Certes to perswade one in speeche and wordes to embrace Christe to inuite him to godlinesse to open the waye to faith but in doings to driue him from Christe to giue an example of doing wickedlie to bring forth no fruites of faithe is no other thing then as much as the daie before thou buildest vppe so muche the daye following to pull downe and with Penelope to vntwiste the webbe againe whiche thou wast minded to haue gone thorough More-ouer before them whose condition is of very diuerse sorts wittes are not al like to temper the manner of teaching to the profit of ech one of them is neede of singuler prudence Heere-unto therefore appertayneth that whiche Clement writeth in his firste epistle to the brother of the Lorde They that Catechise that is to say they that instruct beginners with the worde it behoueth that they them-selues bee instructed For it is a matter of the soule And it behoueth him that teacheth and enstructeth rude soules to be such an one that he may bee able euen to proportion or fitte himselfe and directe the order of his worde according to the capacity of the hearer He therefore himselfe must especially be verye well learned and skilfull blamelesse ripe vnfearfull And S. Augustine at large teacheth how a Catechist or Teacher ought to rouse vp oftentimes his mynde to diligence and labour to breake of all irkesomnesse in the difficulties that hee meeteth with How furthermore it should be his speciall endeuour to frame his speeches according to the diuersitie of the persons And to deale otherwise with those that are of the Gentiles Otherwise with those that come to the Churche from among the Iewes Otherwise also with those that are of the citie and politike men Otherwise with those that are husbandmen and altogether vntrayned vp Otherwise with those that are Gramarians Orators or Philosophers Otherwise with those that are vnlearned otherwise with those that haue beene before accustomed to foule offences and to treate on all thinges otherwise with them that are thought to liue vn-reproueable Besides this there are many that feignedlie and not from the heart come to heare the doctrine some desire diuerse places of Scripture and obscure questions to be expounded vnto them From whose mindes except the scruple be in time remooued it is to be feared least at some time they leape back againe from their holy purpose Therefore these men which were called to the office of catechizing or teaching had not onely neede of learning but also of no meane wisedome Of whiche things Augustine teacheth in his booke of Catechizing the rude in the third the fift and in eleuen chapters following And against Faustus the Manichaean the thirtienth booke the seauenth chapter and so forth vnto the ending And out of doubt such an other was Panthenus the first Doctor of the Ecclesiasticall schoole after the Apostles Maister of the Catechismes or of these manner of Teachings in Alexandria Whome Clemens in his firste booke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of his scatterings or strawings witnesseth that he learned all of the Apostles Of whome S. Hierome writeth that he laboured muche in the Chruches with his liuelye voice Such an other was Clemens of Alexandria the successor of Panthenus in either function As also besides Hierome Eusebius witnesseth in the first booke the tenth and eleuenth chapters of the Ecclesiasticall Historie Such an other was Origen there succeeding in the thirde place Such an other was Heraclas vnto whom Origen deliuered vp the schoole Such an other was Dyonisius the Catechizer or teacher of the people of Alexandria Of whome Eusebius in his Ecclesiasticall Historie the 6. booke Chap. 16.19.22 speaketh Moreouer such an-other at Hierusalem was Cyrillus of whome mention is made before To conclude suche an other at Carthage was that godly man Deogratias whome S. Augustine greatly doth commend All this noteth Hyperius of these auncient Doctors Teachers or Catechists Whereby we may perceaue these Doctors Teachings and much more by their owne workes and treatises to be ful of exhortations applications Yea some of their Catechistical bookes are called by the name of exhortation as that of Clemens Alexandrinus his oration exhortatory to the Gentiles c. Neyther héerein did they inuade the office of other men For it speciallye appertayned to their owne office as Hypperius further noteth 499. For those which for the confession of the Christian truthe were deteyned captiues or ledde to punishment hee was woonte speaking of Origen and likewise of Cyrill with reasons brought foorthe out of the holie Scriptures to comforte them and to animate them vnto constancye and to many the children of the heathen vnto whom with the rules of Grammer hee had studiouslye beate vpon the points of religion to them was he an author to embrace Christianity c. And in the 3. Chap. what doctrine and poyntes of Religion should be taught in a Cathechisme fol 472. he saith The 4. heade is of doctrine but in the name of doctrine I take all those thinges which were proposed to them that were newly baptized and are exacted to be seuerely kept That is to witte of the newe life innocency of the regenerate For it beseemeth him that is baptized to become euen a newe man and by all meanes to die to sinne to liue afterwardes onely to righteousnesse and to shew himselfe to bee suche in all the actions of his life that it may be vnderstoode he vsed the mysteries trulie and with fruit Of the which newnesse of life after Baptisme Rom. 6. Knowe ye not that so many of vs as are baptized we are baptized into his death wee are buried together with him by baptisme into death that euen as Christ was raysed from the deade by the glory of the Father euen so we should also walke in newenesse of life For if wee bee grafted with him to the similitude of his death euen so shall we be to the similitude of his resurrection Knowing this that our olde man is crucified with him that the body of sinne might be destroyed that hence-forth we should not serue sinne c. Also to the Eph. 4. This therefore I say and testifie by the Lord that ye walke not heereafter as the residue of the Gentiles walke in the vanity of their mynde c. And a little after of the doctrine succeeding baptisme But you haue not thus learned Christe if so beye haue heard of him and haue beene taught in him euen as the truthe is in Iesus To lay aside according to the former conuersation the olde man which corrupteth according to the luste of error But be ye renewed in the spirite of your minde and put on the new man which is created according to God by righteousnesse and holinesse of truthe The like things thou readest Col. 3. 2. Pet. 2. In which the doctrine of
Act. 16.3 so he trauelled with him till he came to Boerea Acts. 17. verse 14. and 15 there abiding when Paule went to Athens he came at his commaundemeÌ„t vnto him to Corinthe Act. 18.5 And so went with Paule abode with him at Ephesus Acts. 19. vntill verse 22. he sent him and Erastus into Macedonia Whither when Saint Paule came Acts. 20 and trauelled from thence to Greece he sent againe Timothie with diuersâ— other to Troas where while Timothie abode Saint Paule as it is likelie wrote his First Epistle to the Corinthians in his returne to Macedonia at Phillippos Act. 20 verse 3. and 6. Determining to send Timothie with that Epistle backe againe to Corinthe which of likeliehood hee did when he came to Troas where Timothie with other abode his comming Who when he came thether sent Timothie accompanied with Stephanus Fortunatus and Achaicus with that Epistle as in the ende thereof 1. Corinthians 19 verse 8. appeareth I will tarrie at Ephesus vntill Pentecoast for a great doore and effectuall is opened vnto me but there are manie aduersaries Nowe if Timothie come see that hee bee without feare of you For he worketh the worke of the Lord euen as I doo And euen so saithe Luke Act. 20. verse 16. Paule had determined to saile by Ephesus bicause he would not spend the time in Asia for hee hasted if he could possiblie be at Ierusalem at the daye of Pentecost Whereas before he had minded to tarrie at Ephesus till the drawing néere of that feast So that if I coniecture not amisse which if I doo I will be readie in all humilitie to reforme my computation it appeareth that Timothie was at that time none of these Bishops nor among them whome Saint Paule called from Ephesus to Miletum Howe then was Timothie the firste Bishop ordeined of Ephesus Not firste in time for if anye at all in time then muste hee néedes haue béene ordeyned Bishoppe after them Neyther yet that all the other Bishoppes were not at all ordeined or were now all dead but that in dignitie hee was the firste that is to saie the cheefe or Archbishop among and ouer them all And to confirme this let vs sée the iurisdiction and authoritie by S. Paule giuen him ouer all the Ecclesiasticall Ministerie in this Citie For whensoeuer Saint Paule wrote his firste Epistle to him which some take to be during the time that hee taried for the assemblie of these Bishops aforesaid in the meane while stepping ouer to Laodicia which is about the same distaÌ„ce from Miletum that Ephesus was as appeareth by the charte or mappe therof and there at Laodicea he wrote that Epistle Other suppose and it is farre more likelie that it was after he had béene at Rome and was by Nero set at libertie in which time of â—0 yeares space as he visited againe which the Centuriographers note the Churches of Syria Asia and Greece so hauing a great care of this Churche of Ephesus and kéeping his former course of visitation as hee did Act. 20. from Ephesus to Macedonia and so backe againe as before hee had doone he writeth from Laodicea vnto Timothie whom 〈◊〉 had before ordeined Bishop there giuing him this charge 1. Tim. 1. vâ—â—sâ— 3. As I besought thee to abide still in Ephesus when I departed into 〈◊〉 so doo that thou maiest commaund some that they teach none other 〈◊〉 neither that they giue heede to fables and genealogies Whereby 〈◊〉 appâ—â—reth that hee had authoritie giuen him by the Aposâ—le to 〈…〉 controll and commaund such Bishops Pastors and Doctors as were at Ephesus both for the matter and the manner of their teaching Vpon which sentence saith Caluine The worde of denouncing signifieth power for Paule would furnish him with power to restreine others And this power he giueth him not onelie that they shoulde teache no other doctrine but also not the same Doctrine otherwise So that the manner of setting foorth doctrine as well as the doctrine it selfe apperteined to his charge and ouer-sight In the 2. chapter he shewes him some orders that he would haue obserued in the Churche concerning prayers and the publike Ministerie of the worde In the 3. chapter he describes the office and duties of Bishops and their wiues of Deacons and their wiues so that although the name of Bishop bee there taken indifferentlie for the Pastors of the worde and Sacraments yet still hath Timothie an authoritie giuen him ouer them bothe to make such Bishops as should so be qualified and to ouer-see that they being made should behaue themselues accordinglie Wherevpon after hee hath described them hee saithe to Timothie verse 14. These thinges write I vnto thee trusting to come shortelie vnto thee but if I tarrie long that thou maiste haue knowledge how to behaue thy selfe in the house of God which is the Churche of the liuing God the piller and grounde of truthe In which wordes he plainelie giueth him an authoritie and iurisdiction of ordering and gouerning these offices in the policie and regiment of the Church In this speech saith Caluine he commendeth the weight and dignitie of the office bicause Pastors are as it were Stewards vnto whom God hath committed his house So that Caluine héere maketh Timothie a Pastor whome ye call a Bishop and he giueth him authoritie ouer other Pastors or Bishops there And how doth not this plainlie inferre that though all in the pastorall office may be a like and equall yet in dignitie one may haue charge and gouernement ouer another In the 4 chapter verse 11. and 12. he saith Commend and teach these things Let no man dispise thy youth but be vnto them that beleeue an example c. As though he woulde haue him become a myrror and patterne not onelie to the people but to the Pastors Wherevpon saith Caluine we also acknowledge that Timothie was a yoong man whoe notwithstanding farre surmounted manie Pastors And on the 15. verse he saith Grace was giuen him by prophesie How To witte for bicause as we haue said the Holie-ghoste by oracle had appointed Timothie that he should be chosen into the order of pastors Yea your selues haue clearelie confessed pag. 19. that Timothie was but a yoong man and yet had the office of an Elder If then a Pastor an Elder a Bishop be all one then must Timothie néeds be a Bishop if a pastor must haue a charge flocke assigned him then must Ephesus be his pastorall or Episcopall charge and flocke Which charge that it stretched aboue his other felow Pastors or Bishops is most apparant in the 5. Chapter where besides his authoritie in chusing and ouerseeing the widdowes for his authoritie ouer these Pastorall Elders or Bishops rebuke not an Elder rigorously saith the Apostle to Tim. v. 1. but exhort him as a Father And ver 17. the Elders that rule well are worthie of double honour especially they that labour in the woorde
Bishoppe he meaneth not onely a Pastor but a Doctor and not onely a Doctor but also a Priest or Elder whose office ye say consisteth onely in gouernement and not in publike teaching Ergo a Doctor and a Pastor and a gouernour for so ye call your not teaching Priest or Elder are all one and equall Which is the cleane ouerthrowe of all this your Learned discourse of Ecclesiast Gouernment Likewise as on this former worde Bishop Beza and the Geneua Testament comprehend Doctors Pastors and Elders not teaching but only gouerning so also on the other word Deacons But saith Beza he vnderstandeth Deacons to be the stewards of the Eccles. treasurie and the college of the widdowes And 1. Tim. 3 Deacons These are they that haue the care of the poore c. And the Geneua note By Deacons such as had the charge of the distribution and of the poore and sicke Yea Beza here procéedeth further and saith when otherwise this name is sometime vniuersall in so much that it comprehendeth euen the Apostles themselues also So then we must againe conclude that the name Deacon comprehendeth the treasorers the widdowes the Apostles yea and all the Ecclesiasticall ministers and so Doctors and Pastors too Ergo all together are but all one office and all alike equall in the same Who séeth not the euill sequence of this conclusion And surely though your argument faile and your selues also are not comparable to the excellent Learned Master Beza yet of twaine in my iudgement ye holde the truer opinion in not vnderstanding here by the name of Bishops Elders those that are onely Gouernours and not Teachers but vnderstanding thereby Pastorall Elders contrarie to Beza and to the Geneua Testament And as we will all ioyne with you thus farre-foorth herein that by the name of Bishops he comprehendeth Pastors and not those that were not Pastors so shall wee haue Caluine on our side yea and Danaeus too who is also of Geneua and a most earnest fauorer of your opiniō and one that hath written best in my fancie of all our side for the maintenance of it And yet where he goeth about of set purpose to 1. Tim. 3.1 to prooue Bishops and Pastors to be all one and maketh your last example Act. 20 his seconde argument and this your present example Phil. 1. to be a part of his fourth argument and where he distinguisheth of Elders as you do euen there saith he of these Elders therfore that haue here their name of dignitie not of age there are two sortes in the Scripture The one of thē that watch on manners onely the other of them that attende both on doctrine and on manners and labour in both The which may be easily gathered out of this Epistle cap. 5. ver 17. Concerning therefore the first sorte as it is distinguished from the second so it is to be seuered frō the Bishops and Doctors And so he entreth into his processe the whole beginning whereof was this which I should haue set before But Paule in all this chap. treateth of Bishops and Deacons Howbeit there are other Ecclesiasticall and necessarie dignities besides Deacons Bishops as are Elders of whom some thinke that Paule spake nothing at all in this place But reiecting their opinion distinguishing of these two sorts of Elders he encludeth only Pastorall Elders as you doe in the name of Bishops The like doeth Caluine in this place Phil. 1. vppon the worde Bishops He nameth the Pastors by themselues for honours sake Moreouer it is lawefull to gather hereon the name Bishop to be common to all the ministers of the worde when he attributeth manie Bishoppes to one Church Therefore the name of Bishoppe and Pastor are Synonyms or diuerse wordes meaning one thing c. And on the name Deacon he saith also in the saide place This name may be taken two wayes eyther for the ministers and carers for the poore or for the Elders that were appointed to gouerne the manners But because it is more commonly taken of Paule in the former sense I rather vnderstande it for the stewardes that had the ouer-sight of distributing the almes Thus you and we herein haue these two most famous men of our side against Beza and the quoters of the Geneua Testament And to say the truth all respect of persons set aside our opinion is the better hauing the manifest not example onely but rule of Gods woorde in both places that the Bishops there mentioned Act. 20.28 must feede which ye say inclusiuely is as much as Pastor And 1. Tim. 3.2 he must be apt to teach which appertayneth not vnto an onely Gouernour Nowe although ye doe well herein to dissent from Beza and from the notes of the Geneua translation vnto whom if ye would haue agréed you might easilier perhaps haue founde manie Bishops both there in one Citie and here in another but then must you eyther amende this your argument or else ye should confound all offices in one and make all equall yet still your argument euen as theirs also is not of sufficient force that because Pastors are there named included vnder the name of Bishop therefore simplie Bishop and Pastor are all one and yet I will gladlie graunt both you and them also more than the argument can make good That in the nature of the Pastorall Eldership and Episcopall ouer-sight though ratione they differ in this or that consideration one from the other yet re and indéede they are so ioyned together in one office that the one might then verie well till the name Bishop grewe to a more proper signification yea may yet well inough interchangeablie be spoken the one of the other a Pastor is a Bishop a Bishop is a Pastor notwithstanding it doth not followe hereupon that in all respectes they are now or were then simplie and absolutely all one and the same offices and especially that in dignitie they were all a like and equall For that is the chiefe point that should herein be prooued Must al that be of one order or office of necessitie be of one equall dignitie in the same What degrée or calling haue you of Gentlemen Esquiers Knightes Barons Lordes Earles Dukes Princes or Kinges but that being in any one of these estates orders degrees or offices as they may be equall so one may haue dignitie authoritie gouernement and superioritie well-inough ouer another euen of the same estate order degree or office that themselues be If ye say we must not bring examples of offices in the ciuill policie and applie them to Ecclesiasticall though your selues brought in such examples a little before out of Numb 11.16 how God ordeyned 70. auncients to assist Moses in his gouernment which were ciuill Seniors and applie them to these Ecclesiasticall and Pastorall Elders yet will not you graunt this that when it shall come to anie assemblies of Synodes or Councels one of these equalles may
with the princes yea and with Caesar also obeye the Bishop and the Bishop Christe as Christe the Father and so is an vnitie kept by all What can be plainer spoken bothe for the difference and for the superioritie of these ecclesiasticall offices I vrge not these Epistles as approouing all things in them nor auouching the credit of them and therefore passe ouer the residue seruing also to this purpose Neither yet dare I discredit them in all points namelie in this for the distinction of these three offices Bishop priests and Deacons and for the superioritie of the Bishop in anye citie ouer all the cleargie there Bicause these things accord with all the other writers and state of that age immediatlie following the Apostles In Asia also about the same time was Papias of whom Ieromie saith Papias the hearer of Iohn the Bishop of Hieropolis in Asia and diuerse other famous Bishops of that age of whome saithe Euseb. lib. 4. cap. 20 c. At Antiochia about the same time Theophilus helde the Bishoprike of the Church being the sixt from the Apostles where Cornelius was the fourth after Heron Ignatus successor whome in the 5. degree Heron succeeded At the same time also was Egesippus holden famous of whome wee haue spoken before And Dionisius Bishop of Corinthe Pimitus was the most noble among the Bishops of Creta Phillip also and Apollinaris and Melito Musanus and Modestus And the cheefest of all Iraeneus of which men most excellent monuments of the Apostolicall faithe and sounde doctrine are come euen vnto our age Egesippus in the firste booke of his Commentaries where hee sets downe the sentence of his beleefe with most full proofe declareth also this that when he trauelled to Rome hauing conferred in speech and amitie with the Bishops in all places he founde them all Preachers and Teachers of one faithe and also in the Epistle of Clement written to the Corinthians he mencioneth somthings that I thought necessarie to insert into this worke He saithe therefore And the Churche saithe he of Corinthe euen vntill Primus the Bishoppe whome sayling to Rome I sawe and abode with him at Corinthe manie daies being delighted with the sinceritie of his faith but when I came to Rome I abode there vntill Soter succeeded Amcedus and Eleutheims succeeded Soter But in all these their ordeinings or in other things that I sawe in other cities all things were in such sorte euen as the law from of olde had deliuered and the Prophets had iudged and the Lorde had appointed Moreouer the saide partie recordeth certeine suche sayings also of the Heretikes that arose in his time And after saithe hee that Iames called the Iuste was martyred euen as the Lorde also himselfe bare witnesse to the truthe Simeon the sonne of Cleopas the vnckle of Christe was by the diuine election ordeined Bishop chosen of all in regarde that he was the cousine of the Lorde the Churche then was called a virgine bicause that as yet shee was not defiled with the vndermining of the adulterous worde But one Theobatus for that he deserued the repulse of a Bishoprike began euen in the beginning to disturbe and corrupte all things c. Héere we sée againe by Egesippus that liued in Iustines time not by the suspected Egesippus that we haue but by the fragments of the true Egesippus taken out of Eusebius another firme testimonie that Iames was Bishop of Ierusalem and Simeon after him Yea Eusebius reckoneth vp lib. 4. cap. 5.25 Bishops of Ierusalem one succéeding another from the Apostles times vntill that destruction of Ierusalem vnder the Emperor Adrian besides all the other Bishops in other places and yet that the Churche continued still vndefiled So that this superioritie was no defiling of the Churches discipline but the godlie gouernment of it and as Egesippus noteth euen the appointment of the Lord being practised and approoued by the Apostles And that all the disturbance and corruption entred indéed as Beza and our Brethren note on occasion of striuing for this superioritie but yet this superioritie was not the cause but their diuilish ambition and pride as in this Theobutus and Simon Magus and Diotrephes c. who could abide no rulers ouer them but would themselues be rulers ouer others and when they had repulses then as the for dispraised the grapes they brake out into schismes and heresies So that this rather confirmeth this superioritie then makes against it And these godlie Fathers that gaue not this offence though other tooke it continued this order of superioritie in Bishops and were the greatest defenders of Gods truthe and Churche against these Scismatikes Heretikes and disturbers of it But nowe at length saith Euseb. procéeding ca. 23. we must come to the mencioning of the blessed Dionysius Bishop of the Church of Corinth whose learning and grace that he had in Gods worde not onelie those people enioied when he tooke vpon him for to gouerne but those also that were farre off to whō he gaue his presence by his Epistles There is extant an epistle of his cōcerning the Catholike faith written to the Lacedemonians in the which most florishingly he treateth of peace cōcord And an other to the Atheniās wherein he mooueth thē to beleefe of the Gospell stirreth vp the sluggish withall reprooueth certeine as almost falne frō the faith whē as their B. Publius had suffered martyrdom And also he mencioneth Quadratus that in the Sacerdotall Priesthood succeeded Publius And he telleth how that by his labour and industrie a certeine reuiuing or quickning warmth of faith was renewed in them Héere this Quadratus is said by this Dionysius to succéed Publius in Sacerdotio in the Sacerdotall Priesthood not that the Priesthood and the Bishoprike was equall and all one for then hee had not succéeded him being a Priest or pastorall Elder in Publius time But that which Ruffinus translateth in Sacerdotio Eusebius himselfe calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And Publius that was Bishop before him he calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This Quadratus was also a Prophet as saithe Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 37. For hauing reckoned vp Ignatius and Heron that gouerned the Churche of Antiochia he saithe Among them flourished Quadratus who togithee with the daughters of Philip was most famous in the grace of prophesieng and also manie other Disciples of the Apostles were aliue at that time Who vpon the foundations of the Churche laide by them did build vp moste worthie buildings increasing in all things the preaching of the worde of God and scattering more abroade through all the earth the wholesome seeds of the kingdome of Heauen To conclude manie of them kindeled with more feruent desire of the diuine Philosophie did consecrate their soules to the worde of God filling vp the wholesome precept of perfection that distributing their goods to those that had moste neede they might be made readye to preache the
fourthe yeare of Seuerus that is the yeare of our Lorde 199 other referre it to the fifte yeare of Seuerus Therfore he should haue beene in the ministerie especiallie in his Bishoprike about 23. yeares To the which if wee adde the yeares of his Priesthood or Eldership perhaps it will runne to 30. yeares And so at the least by their computation he was seauen yeares a Priest before hee was Bishop And this also did these Centuriographers confesse before saying Photinus being cruellie murthered in the persecution for the confession of the truthe of the Gospell Irenaeus hetherto being but a Priest or Elder in the same Churche was substituted in his place Whereby it is moste euident that Presbyter and Episcopus a Priest or Pastorall Elder or minister of the worde and a Bishop were not all one and equall in this holye and singuler learned Fathers dayes so néere vnto the Apostles that hee was scholler to Polycarpus which liued in the Apostles times And euen in Irenaeus time he telleth that neither the giftes of healings nor of speaking with strange toongs were yet ceassed Although I graunte we shall nowe and then finde where when he speaketh of Bishops he calles them Priests or Elders as lib. 4. cap. 43 wherefore wee must hearken to those priests or Elders that are in the Churche those that haue their succession from the Apostles as wee haue shewed who with the succession of the Bishoprike haue receiued the certeine gifte of the truthe according to the good will of the Father And in the nexte chapter But those that are indeede of manye beleeued to bee Priests or Elders and serue their pleasures and preferre not the feare of God in their heartes but vexe the residue with reproches and are lifted vp with the puffe of sitting highest and secretlye doo euill and saye none shall see vs shall be reprooued of the worde that iudgeth not according to glorie nor lookes on the countenance but on the heart c. From all suche therefore we must absteyne but cleaue vnto those that as wee haue saide keepe bothe the doctrine of the Apostles and the sounde worde with the order of their Priesthood or Eldership and expresse a conuersation without offence to the information and correction of the residue c Suche priestes or Elders the Churche nourisheth of whome the prophet saithe And I will giue thee princes in peace and thy Bishoppes in righteousnesse Although in these and suche like places of Irenaeus the worde bothe Priest and Bishop maye be taken the one for the other indifferentlie yet dooth not this debarre but that as Irenaeus him-selfe was a Prieste for a while before he were a Bishop so lib. 3 cap. 3. hee there speaketh all of the succession vntill â—is time of the Bishops of the Churche of Rome that cannot bee vnderstood of euerye Priest there And indéed among all other that were Bishops I haue chéeflie forborne the naming of these not so muche for any corruption in this pointe that at that time was in them more than in other Bishops for I take them rather to haue beene as sincere as any of all the other but that their successors since those times vpon the honor for their vertue and sinceritie giuen to them of this first age and for the dignitie of the place and for the number of them that then were martyrs there and with-all for the memorie of Paule and Peter supposed there also to haue suffered martyrdome and to haue established the Churche there and to haue ordeined a Bishop also ouer them bicause I saye their successors waxing insolent and abusing all these good occasions haue also abused the memorie and names of those good auncient Bishops of Rome with a number of forgeries fathered falslie on them I haue therefore mencioned none of them But bicause Ireneus as they were then the mirrors of other Churches and Bishops excelling in synceritie of doctrine in good order of discipline and integritie of life bringeth in all the Bishops of that sée vntill his time to confute the new deuises of the heretikes errors by their constant continuance in the truthe I will therefore also set downe some parte of Ireneus words for our further confirmation of this matter The tradition saith he therefore of the Apostles is made manifest in all the worlde It is present to beholde in the Churche for all that will heere the truthe And wee haue to reckon vp them which haue beene ordeined Bishops in the Churches from the Apostles and the successors of them vntill our daies Who haue taught no such thing neither haue knowne how these men doate For if the Apostles had knowne any such hidden mysteries which they taught those that were perfect by themselues and priuilie they would most especially haue taught them vnto those to whome they committed the Churches themselues For they would haue them to be verie perfect and vnreprooueable in all things whome they would also haue to be their successors Deliuering to them euen their owne places of maistership that they had who behauing themselues without faulte great profite might come thereon but offending great calamitie How beit bicause it is verie long in such a volume as this to reckon vp the successions of all Churches therefore of that Churche whith is the greatest and most auncient and knowne to all to be founded and ordeyned of the two most glorious Apostles Peter and Paule declaring that tradition that it hath of the Apostles and faithe published vnto men comming euen vnto vs by the succession of the Bishops we confound all those which by any maner of meane or by their owne euill selfe liking or by vaine glorie or by blindnesse and euill opinion doo gather otherwise than they ought to doo For vnto this Churche bicause of the more mightie principalitie it is necessarie that euerie Churche agree That is they that are faithfull euerie where in the which alwaies of those that are euerie where the tradition that is from the Apostles is kept The blessed Apostles therefore founding and instructing the Churche deliuered vnto Linus the Bishoprike of administring the Churche Of this Linus Paule mentioneth in those Epistles that are to Timothie but vnto him succeeded Anacletus after whome in the third place from the Apostles Clemens obteined the Bishoprike Who also sawe the Apostles them-selues and conferred with them while as yet he had the preaching of the Apostles sounding in his eares and their tradition before his eyes For not hee alone manie at that time were yet aliue that were taught of the Apostles Vnder this Clemens therefore no small dissention falling out among the brethren that were at Corinth the Church which is at Rome wrote most forcible letters to the Corinthians gathering them togither vnto peace and repayring their faithe and declaring the tradition that they had euen of fresh receiued from the Apostles Which tradition declared that there was one God Almightie the maker of Heauen
the worde of God and that the rule is false which concerning this matter doeth attribute it to the Apostles which may be shewed by the ordeyning of Timothy by the Eldership It séemeth that this Learned man accounteth all the reasons which he hath already alleaged out of Epiphanius to be no reasons Else how saith he here Nowe the reasons of the same Epiphanius are these c. But howe then saide he before that Epiphanius doth bring foorth three reasons two as it were out of Gods worde c. and when he hath alleaged them in the order afore sayde the first place is 1. Tim. 5.1 c. another place is out of the same Epistle c. and traueiled as wee haue heard to confute them then as though all this while he had yet alleaged or confuted no reason he commeth in saying Nowe the reasons of the same Epiphanius are these c. What reason is in this dealing especially of such a most reuerend and learned man But if these following are his onely reasons good reason he should report them right and not make them other than they be Bishops sayth he beget the Fathers of the Church but Elders the sonnes in as much as Bishops and not Elders ordayned Bishops Doth Epiphanius reason thus Or to this purpose His wordes are these To say that a Bishop and a Priest or Elder are equall howe is it possible For the order of Bishops is the begetter of the Fathers for it begetteth the Fathers of the Church But the order of Priestes or Elders is not able to beget the Fathers it begetteth the sonnes of the Church by the regeneration of the washing but not the Fathers or the Doctors And howe was it possible for a Prieste or Elder to obtaine not hauing the laying on of handes to elect Or to say that he is equall with a Bishop The plaine meaning here of Epiphanius is this the Bishops beget that is ordayne Pastors and ministers of the worde and Sacramentes which Pastors or Ministers hee calleth Fathers or Doctors of the Church But these Pastors or Ministers whom he calleth Fathers or Doctors being no Bishops doe not againe beget that is ordaine or make other Fathers or Doctors but doe onely sayth he begette the sonnes of the Church that is the faithfull people by preaching the word and baptizing of them the Bishops therefore hauing a further authoritie to wit of making ministers then haue the ministers whom they make howe iâ— the Bishops and the ministers authoritie equall This is indéede the truâ— meaning of Epiphanius his reason He that can doe more hath more power than he which onely can doe lesse But the Bishop can do more than the Priest or Elder can doe for the Bishop can make Priests and Elders which the Priestes or Elders can not doe Therefore the bishop hath more power than the Priest oâ— Elder that is no Bishop This being in effect the argument of Epiphanius this Learned man tourned all to this that Epiphanius should say Bishops beget the Fathers of the Church but Elders the sonnes in as much as Bishops and not Elders ordayned Bishops As though he spake onely of ordayning Bishops or by Fathers ment onely bishops and by sonnes Priestes or Elders of the Churche Whereas Epiphanius confesseth bishops and Priestes or Elders both of them to be Fathers and Doctors of the Church But in this behalfe of ordayning anie of these Fathers eyther Bishops or Priestes the Bishops had a prerogatiue aboue the Priestes and so their authoritie is notequall This is the verie argument and reason that Epiphanius maketh Nowe what saith our most Reuerende and learned man to this argument But what is this else saith he then to aske to haue that which is in question And why so Epiphanius here asketh nothing The question heere iâ— this Whether Bishops and Priestes be in dignitie and authoritie equall and all one Epiphanius proueth they be not by this argument They that be equall and all one in dignitie and authoritie the one can doe in all thinges as much as the other and not one more than the other But the Bishops can make Bishops Priestes which the Priests theÌ„selues can not doe therefore Bishops Priests are not equall and all one That the B. can or the Priest can not do this which is héere auouched this is not the question but dependes vpon it or else he could make indéede no reason If nowe this assertion be vntrue improue it and neuer say what is this else than to aske to haue that which is in question But go to now What reason hath this Learned man to improue it For it may be and ought to be answered that the Bishops tooke that authoritie vpon them without warrant of the worde of God I thinke it may be indéede thus aunswered of a man that would vnreuerently sclaunder hee cares not whome and aunswere contrarie to all truthe and learning but that it ought to be aunswered so of any man and especially of a most Reuerende and Learned man be it spoken with reuerence I thinke the cleane contrarie Did not this most reuerend and learned man himselfe graunt before but euen on the other side the lease that Timothie had the authoritie of the laying on of hands And what here was that but ordeyning Bishops Pastors Except therefore all those prooues be improoued that inferre Timothie was B. of Ephesus and this of Timothy conferred with Iames and Simeon after him at Ierusalem and Titus in Creta it is apparant that Bishops tooke not that authoritie vpon them without warrant of the worde of God But thiâ— that he sayth it may be and ought to be aunswered stayeth not héere for he addeth And that the rule is false which concerning this matter doth attribute it to the Apostles Here is a rule indéede for this matter of ordeyning ministers Did not the Apostles take vpon them the authoritie to ordaine Bishops and Elders Doth not S. Paule confesse that he tooke that authoritie on him The most reuerendes far more vnreuerend deniâ—ng the manifest scripture And is Gods worde it selfe also become a false rule which is the rule of truth that attributeth this matter to the Apostles What could the open aduersaries of the word of God haue spoken worse against the word of God And how now shall this be shewed that the worde of God doth not attribute this to the Apostles Which may be shewed sayth hée by the ordeyning of Timothie by the Eldership And haue we not hearde euen by Caluine the matter clearely and at large shewed that not onely the ordeyning of Timothie was doone by Paule alone but also that it was the common vse to bee doone by Paule alone And that this woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eldershippe signifieth in that place not the Colledge Consistorie or companie of Elders but the office of the Elders Yea Beza also yéeldeth so
then possesse the Churches as the lawe commandeth With which confutation when he had stopped his mouth hee sayde that hee maruelled at Apollinaris that so impudently resisted the trueth when as he knewe well enough that the famous Damasus auouched that God the word did take vpon him our whole nature to whome he alwayes taught the contrary For sayth he thou depriuest our mindes of saluation which accusation if it be false then deny thou now this impe of thy newfanglenesse and receiue the doctrine of Damasus and obteine the diuine Churches Thus did the most wise Flauian allay their boldnes by the trueth of his speech But Meletius of all men the mildest sweetely and gentlie calling Paulinus sayde because the Lorde of this flocke hath set me also ouer the custodie of the sheepe and other are committed vnto thee sith there is a community of godlines among the sheepe let vs freendly ioyne our foldes and let go the contention of Mastership and attend in common to the sheepe that go in common in the pastures But if the seate itself doe stoppe the concord I also will endeuour to remooue this contention Let vs set I pray you in the seate the booke of the diuine gospell and let vs either of vs sitte together on eyther side it And if so be that I shall dye before thee be thou O freend alone the Sheepes master But if this shall happen to thee before me then will I to my ability take vpon me the care of the flock When as Paulinus allowed not these his sweete and gentle speeches the Duke deciding the cause commended the Churches to Meletius the great But Paulinus reteyned the mastership or remained bishop of these Sheepe that had long before deuided themselues Here agayne is another notable story of another Meletius where moe in one city tooke vpon them according to their factions to be bishops and what offer was made to appease the strife of two at one time to haue ruled together vntill the decease of the one or the other and how in the end it was determined vnto one Thus much to this most reuerend and learned mans aunsweres to Epiphanius for the superioritie of one bishop in one citie The residue of his argumentes because they are chéefely on the sentences taken from Ierome Chrisostome Theophilact and Theodorete whose sentences we haue before at large perused I will héere for this time passe them ouer saue that which he sayth of Cyprian as yet vntouched And whereas Cyprian sayth he not in one place calleth the bishops successors of the Apostles whose authority is from God and if we take it so as though by the very commaundement of God these Bishops are the same that in time past were the Apostles the thing it self doth confute that seeing there was alwaies a certaine portion assigned to euerye Bishop But the Apostles by the direction of the spirite of God though not confusedlie didde exercise their Ministery throughout the whole world The meaning of Cyprian is plaine without cauiling as the like saying of many other the auncient fathers that bishops are the successors of the Apostles bicause they succéeded both in the places Churches by the Apostles fownded and in the chiefest dignity of the Churches orders as in their times the function of the Apostles was As the Magdeburgēses note Cent. 3. cap. 6. tit de ratione gubernandi pag. 150. The firste and cheefest authority belonged to the Bishops whome also Cyprian lib. 3. Epistola 14. calleth Praepositors placed ouer the residue who in gouernment sustayned the chiefest parte of the Ecclesiasticall administration After them the next in dignity belonged to the Priestes or Elders and the third to the Deacons And that Bishoppes were then aboue the Priestes or Pastorall Elders is apparant by Cyprians owne wordes I haue long helde my patience moste deare bretheren as though our bashfull silence should help to quietnesse But when immoderate and abrupt presumption by the rashnes thereof shall attempt to disturbe the honor of the Martyrs and shamefastnesse of the Confessors and tranquillity of the whole people I must no longer hold my peace For what daunger of the offense of the Lord ought we not to feare when as some of the Priestes or Elders neyther mindefull of the Gospell nor of their place no nor thinking of the Lords iudgements to come neither that now the Bishop is placed ouer them do with contumely and contempt of him that is placed ouer them claime the whole to themselues which thing was neuer done at all vnder the auncestors Yea and would to God that casting flatte downe the saluation of our brethren they woulde not challenge all thinges to them selues I can dissemble and beare the reproches of our Bishoprike as I haue still dissembled and borne them But now there is no place of dissembling whē as our brotherhoode is deceaued by some of you who while without meanes of restoring the saluation they desire to be plausible they rather hinder such as are fallen c. Whereby as it plainely appeareth that the Pastorall Elders were inferiour to bishops so euen then there were of the Cleargie some Priests or Elders that enuied and slaundered this their B. Superiority and woulde haue had the dealing as far forth as they in restoring the poenitents and in all thinges equall authority to the bishoppes Which thing by Cyprians iudgement how plausible a shew of reformation soeuer it had was very offensiue vnto God and neuer before attempted of the Ministers And so consequentlie this superioritye of Bish. placed ouer the Priestes or Pastorall Elders had continued euen from the Apostles times And thus might they well of him bee called the successors of the apostles Not that Cyprian ment that there was no difference betwéene the Bishops and the Apostles And therefore this is a manifest mistaking to say If wee take it so as though by the very commaundement of God these Bishops are the same that in times past the Apostles the thing it selfe dooth refute that seeing there was alwaies a certaine portion assigned to euery Bishoppe But the Apostles by the direction of the spirite of God thoughe not confusedlye didde exercise their Ministerye throughout the whole world Although héerein and in other poyntes moe the Apostles were distinguished from and aboue Bishops yet might they also be Bishoppes well inough For as this Learned man saith they did it not confusedlye so their charge to goe into all the world and preache the Gospell vnto all nations was not so that euery one of them shoulde trauell ouer all the world and preach vnto al nations But that by the world being name◠per fynecdochen the whole for the parts and that among them all some héere and some there by the direction indéed of the spirit of GOD they dispersed themselues at length in diuerse parts of the world And there also diuerse of them did settle themselues so long as they liued
to bee allowed of the apostle but also the allowance of a faithful substitute in the absence of the Bishop and pastor Secondly the office of pastors is not onely to teache the same trueth in their seuerall Flockes but also to applye it to the time and persons of whome they haue charge with exhortation and reprehension with consolation of the afflicted and threatning of the obstinate c. This in fewe wordes is set foorth by saint Paule speaking of the diuerse giftes of God in his Churche hee sayth whether it bee hee that teacheth in his doctrine or hee that exhorteth in his exhortation The Doctor therefore teacheth without exhortation The pastor teacheth and exhorteth withall More at large hee setteth foorth the same office in his exhortation vnto the pastors of Ephesus willing thâ—m to followe his example who supplied that office vntil they were able to succeede in his place Also very breefely and yet fully hee describeth the same vnto Timothy shewing first that all his foundation must bee out of the scriptures which were sufficient for all partes of his charge and then moste earnestly commaundeth him to practise the same withall diligence his wordes are these Al scripture is inspired of God and prositable for Doctrine for exhortation for reformation and for enstruction which is in righteousnesse that the man of GOD may be prepared to al good workes therefore I charge thee before God and before the Lorde Iesus Christe which shal iudge the quicke and the deade at his appearing and in his kingdome preache the worde bee instant in season and out of season improoue rebuke exhort withal long suffering and doctrine Nothing of all this is in controuersie vnderstanding teaching according to the measure of euery pastors gift saue this sentence that the Doctour teacheth without exhortation which wée haue before at large confuted The first part therefore and the cheefest of a pastors office or duetye is to feede with wholesome Doctrine the flocke that is committed to his charge and therefore saint Paule describing what manner of men are meete for that charge vnto Timothie requireth that a Bishoppe or Pastor bee apt or able able to teache For if a man haue neuer so much knowledge and bee not apt or able to teache hee ought by no meanes to be admitted vnto this vocation And vnto Titus writing Chapter 1. the firste verse 9. he requireth that hee bee suche a one as holdeth faste the faythfull woorde accordinge to doctrine that hee also may bee able to exhorte with wholesome doctrine and improoue them that saye againste it Weereupon it followeth necessarily that whosoeuer is him felfe ignorant in the knowledge of Gods woorde therefore vnable eyther to exhorte with wholesome doctrine or to confute them that gaine-say it is altogether vnmeete for the office of a pastor or Bishop Albeit we might héere inquyre how it was said before First he maye no more lawfully haue charge of 2. or three Churches c. and then Secondlie the office of pastors is not onely to teach c. And nowe to conclude vpon this second saying The first part therefore and the chiefest of a pastors office is to feede with wholesome doctrine Notwithstanding not to stande on such reckonings though we with they had reckoned more orderly for our Brethrens sake professing ouer the head of euery page A Learned Disc. as also for the vnlearneds better perceauing their lear discourse thereon to come to the materiall point here required that the Bishop or the Pastor should be apt and able to teach to exhort and to confute c. This we yéeld vnto considering withall the diuersities of mens giftes euen in the Ministerie how some haue ten talents committed vnto them some fiue some two and some but one so that all emploie them after their abilitie to the Lords aduantage we hope the Lord wil not condemne but commend the poore trauaile of that seruant so that hee haue not hid his one talent in the napkin And admitting also that which Saint Paule saith 1. Cor. 12. ver 7. c. so often by our brethren otherwise remembred The manifestation of the spirit is giuen to euery one to profit to this man is giuen by the spirit the word of wisedoÌ„me to another is giuen the word of knowledge according to the same spirit to another faith in the same spirit to another the gift of healing in the same spirit to another faculties of powers to another prophesies to another discerning of spirits to another the kinds of tongues to another the interpretation of tongues and all these things worketh euen the selfe same spirite distributing to euerie man seuerallie euen as he will and ver 28. c. And God hath ordained some in the Church as first Apostles secondlie Prophets thirdlie teachers then them that do myracles after that the giftes of healing helpers gouernors diuersities of tongues Are all Apostles are all Prophets are all teachers are all workers of myracles haue all the giftes of healing doe all speake with tongues doe all interpret Neither also forgetting that place Rom 12. that our brethren themselues entering into this matter on the other side of the leafe put vs in minde of Seeing then we haue giftes that are diuerse according to the grace that is giuen vnto vs whether wee haue prophesie let vs prophesie according to the proportion of faith or an office on the office or he that teacheth in teaching or he that exhorteth in exhortation he that distributeth with simplicitie he that ruleth with diligence he that sheweth mercie with cheerefulnesse All which places dulie considered and conferred that though these offices be not so distinguished but that one may haue mo of them as we haue alreadie proued against our brethrens too precise seuering of them before which now in the Pastor they woulde ioyne together for many of them and that of necessitie yet heereby we may plainlie see there is no such necessitie of the coniunction of these seuerall giftes in all Pastors but although some haue them all some are not so furnished but that notwithstanding they want some of these giftes by our brethren here so necessarilie required yet are they not to bee cleane excluded out of the Ministerie And how do our brethren here then saie If a man haue neuer so much knowledge be not apt or able to teach meaning by teaching not onelie such teaching as they ascribe onelie to Doctors but also publike preaching which conteineth both teaching and exhortation as they sayd eueÌ„ in their last Section the Pastor teacheth and exhorteth with all except he can teache thus he ought by no meanes to be admitted into this vocation And yet if he could do this and were not able to confute them that gainsay the wholesome doctrine he is altogether vnmeete for the office of a pastor or Bishop This were very harde to be vrged with such a peremptory necessity
than the moste of the residue wrote of late in his aunswere against M. C. for ioyning with the English Churches saying Wherefore I woulde say there were holinesse in the dumbe Ministerye for that is their vsuall and mildest tearme they afforde the Ministers that are not publike preachers if all the dumbe Ministers were hanged vp in the Churches and publike assemblies for a warning and terror to the reste that are ready to enter such a function then indeede there were a holy signe and remembraunce of iudgement against such wretches but other holinesse haue they none in them This iudgement is farre more rigorous and extream than this of our Learned brethren Discoursers Yea by this bloudy sentence some of our brethren perhaps their-selues that are more Zealous than learned or more Learned then able with any gift of persuasion to make any publike exhortation and confutation might be called into daunger not nowe of their liuings but of thei◠liues and although they would tell a fayre tale to saue their liues and would rather preach such slender stuffe God wotte as they had yet if they were vnlearned they must be counted dumb dogs they must trusse also the cord would not suffer them to vtter it So soone might this Iudgement be reuersed on some of their own wel-willers who spare not to cast foorth such vncharitable and bitter spéeches saying of the poore Ministers of Christ we say not but that that our dumbe Ministers may be heard for if standing on the galowes to bee executed they say woulde come downe I knowe we may heare them Do these spéeches sauour of Christian charity If not rather of the spirite of those cried Crucifige Crucifige and hauing crucified Christ so these speak of hanging vp his poore Ministers And as they in scorne bad him come downe from the crosse so these speaking of hearing his Ministers doe say they may indéede be heard when they say they would come downe from the Gallows Yet well fare these our Brethren the Learned Discoursers that are somewhat more pitifull to the poore vnlearned pastors not to hang them vp by the neck as Theeues and Robbers Traytors and Rebelles for so they commonly call them for a warning and terror but to turn them out to shake their eares and beg their Bread with their wiues and children like wretches Roagues and Vagaboundes Yea they are fayre dealt with that they haue their liues And this is the mylder sorte of these our Brethren And vntill the poore Ministers that bee not Learned preachers be at leaste thus gently handled wee shall neuer minde suche a reformation as God shall thereby bee glorified and his Church edefied Alas poore soules which heretofore euen for their zeal of Gods word thogh not al yet many of them in time of so great necessity when the tyranny of Antichriste had wasted and taken away so many Learned pastors and when the popish massing sacrifices were also remoued then these good Zealous men being of some readier skill and ability than were the most part of the residue in those dayes did forsake their former trades whereby before they honestly liued which if they had continued might yet thereby haue mainteined themselues and with hatred and hazard of their liues the most part being then aduersaies of the trueth in many places haue wholly dedicated them selues to the Ministery of Gods worde and Sacramentes beeing also lawfully both by the best pastors then of the church of England yea many of them assent desire and election of by their brethren Protestants with testification of their good conuersation albeit not so Learned nor trayned in schooles as godly zealous nor able to preach to expounde to exhort to confute learnedly in publike auditory though otherwise sufficient to giue godly counsel admonition and instruction in all priuate though in the open Congregation not daring knowing their owne simplicity to hazard themselues further then the distinct reading of the scriptures with such fruitefull Interpretations and Homelies as by authority are approoued and assigned with the publike forme of common prayer prescribed and the reuerent administration of Christs sacramentes and haue nowe in the continuall exercise of these thinges besides their priuate studies aboue this twenty yea some aboue thirtie yeares spent all their time and nowe in their old age should be vtterly remooued and by no meanes tollerated to haue any charge ouer the Lordes flock nor any other prouision so much as spoken of for their mainnance though not called in question whether they would be hangd or no Me thinketh these thinges if they were a little better considered and digested should it least more moue the bowels of mercie yea the remorse of conscience and thankfulnesse in our learned brethren than to deale so extreamly with them It may be that a number of such withall are crept into the Ministery altogether so ignorant and perhaps so criminous and offensiue who might worthily sustaine so sharpe a iudgement that it were better they were vtterly remooued than by any meanes to bee tollerated to haue any charge of the Lords flock For such I pleade not But no reason that their causes of entering into and continuing in the Ministery being so different they should passe al alike so hard a censure But what reason induceth our brethren héereunto What man hauing but one hundreth sheepe woulde make such a mā a shepheard or Ouerseer ouer them as were a naturall Idiote or otherwise altogether vnskilfull or vnable too performe the thinges that belong to a shepheard if no man haue so little care of bruite beasts what brutish negligence is it to commit the people of God redeemed with the precious bloude of Iesus Christe to suche vnskilfull and vnsufficiēt Pastors as neither themselues knowe the waye of saluation neyther are able to lead other vnto it whereof they are so cleane ignorant themselues If our brethren meant only of such persons as they now speake of it were more than a brutish negligence in very déede to commit the people of god to such vnskilfull and vnsufficient Pastors But before they spoke of such as had neuer so much knowledge and now they come in with naturall Idiotes with altogether vnskilfull vnable and vnsufficient Pastors and such as neither themselues know the way of saluation neither are able to leade other vnto it whereof they are ignoraunt thēselues Is there no difference betwéene these those that are both wise godly and learned and diligent to leade the people of God bothe by counsell instruction and example though they haue not the gifte of open preaching publike exhorting of the people and effectual confuting of the gainesayer These are those that we woulde haue more fauorablye delt withall As for the other naturall Idiotes and altogether vnskilfull vnable and vnsufficient Pastors we pleade not for any tolleration of thē And we hope there be not many suche hope-losts that these words should thus in generall
and enricheth the word wherby the word becoÌ„meth effectual to animate enrich the element without ascribing vertue to the bare word Is it not theÌ„ of sufficient vertue to baptize clense the infant wheÌ„ besides the element of water these words In the name of the father of the sonne of the holy Ghost that Christ hath coÌ„maÌ„ded those to vse which are his ministers appointed therunto besids the promise there declared of washing away our sinnes of newnes of life and that we shal be saued which promise where Gods spirite worketh by his worde is annexed to the element is not all this sufficient and effectuall to baptise an infant except a sermon also heereof be made at his baptisme Nay though he that were to be baptized were of ripe yeares to heare vnderstand and beleeue all these thinges yet sithe that he is not to be on a suddaine baptized before he be catechized in a sufficient vnderstanding and beleeuing both of all the mysteries of that sacrament and of all the necessary articles of our Christian faith shall wee say that euen then when such a one should come to be baptized hee must haue also a sermon made vnto him at the celebrating of this sacrament or else the element of water is but a worldly a dead a beggerly element and the word neuer so plainely pronounced is but a magicall murmuring And what if there be yet besides al this a godly and learned forme also most plainely expressing all the pointes conteyned in that mysterie and that all the couenant betwixt God and vs be so fully expressed that the best preacher in the worlde cannot in effect say more and all this so clereset out that all of vnderstanding may vnderstande it shall it yet be saide that the element is héere dead and beggerly and separated from his life and spirituall riches And all this haue we besides godly learned homilies and many other sermons set out for that purpose yet all this will not serue our Breth without a sermon preached at that instant And for the supper of the L. haue not wee likewise most pithie godly exhortations before we approch vnto it with prayers and thankesgiuing and publike confessions the whole institution also layd foorth before vs when we come thereto And the wordes of Christ not vsed with a magicall murmuring nor any such vertue ascribed to the wordes but all to Christ the instituter and to the vertue of his death and passion whom and whose passion we recorde and take the elements with the word in remeÌ„brance of him of his body giuen for vs of his bloud shed for vs shew foorth his death by this action feeding by faith in our harts on his flesh and bloud as effectually truly in spirituall manner as our bodies féede on those bodily elements and that hereunto these elements are coÌ„secrated as holy liuely signes pledges to confirme our faith relyin at 〈◊〉 the promise of the same our Sauiour that by eating his fleshe drinâ—â—ng his bloud we shal haue life euerlasting And all this is clearely set out eueÌ„ as it is conteyned in the scripture gathered together in so excellent disposed a forme as all the world cannot amende nor is inferiour to any of our Brethrens formes Yea all thinges considered our forme is farre more conuenient for vs than is any of theirs to enflame confirm our faithes in our Sauiour Christ in the merites of his passion to make vs repentant of our sins to comfort vs in the forgiuenes of them to knit vs in loue and charitie all to God in a communion with Christ our head in the communion of saintes one to another to prouoke vs to leade a new life to offer vp to God a spirituall sacrifice of our soules and bodies besides that of our lips by praysing glorifying God for all these benefits sealed vp thus vnto vs in these mysteries of our Sauiour Christ and withall vnfolded vnto vs by this so cleare setting out of all these thinges that euery coÌ„municant may vnderstande them and be moued by them And can now our Breth say if they wil say the truth that here wants the promise and worde of God and that it is separated and not set forth that heere is but a dead beggerly element that here is but a part and that but the outwarde part of the sacrament and so no sacrament as the bodie of a man without the soule which animateth and giueth life to the body is not a man but a dead corps And dare our Brethren beyonde all this be thus bolde to demand what can it be better than sacrilege For if it be no better than sacrilege then is it no sacrament at all We dare not burden the Papists so farre for their baptizing notwithstanding all their incantations superstitious toyes and materiall additions to the element of water besides their daungerous errours about baptisme that the baptisme which their Popish and Idolatrous sacrificers ministred no what heretike soeuer he were so long as he and they obserue the forme and matter of baptisme by our Sauiour Christ prescribed we dare not say they are not baptized at all and take vpon vs to baptize them againe nor I thinke our Brethr. dare attempt it or auouch it And can they auow these spéeches then of our baptizing now that kéepeth the méere and simple institution of Christ without any of those corruptions Howe farre more modestly writeth Caluine in his 265. Epistle Rogant quidam c. There are certaine that inquire if it were lawefull for the Apostles at the houre of prayer to ascende into the temple and moreouer for Paule to performe the solemne rite of sanctificatioÌ„ why may not we also intermingle prayers with the Papistes We must first holde this that the prayers which were in vse among the Iewes were pure formed to the lawes prescription Neither yet if the Papistes did conceaue a pure forme of praying would I make any religion to enter with theÌ„ into the â—eÌ„ple But nder became not them to ioyne theÌ„selues vnto their assembly that had â—deâ—â—fied Christ I answere a godly holy action is not corrupted by the vice of the men As I am wont to say that If all the Angels were present at the Masse they are not able with their holynes to clense the filthinesse therof Nor yet again are al the deuils able with their presence to bring to passe that the holy supper when it is celebrated according to the institution of Christ should not reteyne the puritie thereof Since therfore we haue the very institution of Christ both in his supper and in our baptisme so clearly set forth as we haue séene shall the ministers insufficiency to preach the things the he after so good a forme prescribed both to him vs declareth be such a pollution that these holy sacramentes should be defiled
the man and of the woman praying or prophecying vse his heade which was S. Paules principall conclusion If he be couered that is not aunswerable to the comelinesse of the man If he be vncouered that is lesse aunswerable if not more vnfit for the comelinesse of the woman What shall we here doe yea though we imagined this third were an Hermaphrodites that is of both genders Man and woman except the same party also had two heades the one to bee vncouered and the other to be couered What a straunge deuise therefore is this and what a number of impossible vnnaturall and monstrous absurdities do arise if a man woulde stande in examining this interpretation I speake not this for the dishonor of them whome I honour with good heart as singuler ornaments of Gods Church in our age And yet Luther so excellent an instrument of Gods trueth and glory when hee writhed some textes of Scripture by affection more then by considerate and indifferent weighing of them into what vnnecessary misconstructions and oppositions to the plaine and easy trueth and to his owne self did he fall and caused many by his too great estimation to fall with him And therefore we must take héede howe we depend too much on Men. And if wee will holde vs alwayes to Gods worde so take it that we cary not that also away after our owne construing If it be playne and easie not to lap it in ambiguities If it be harde and doubfull to way it with other places and consider all the circumstaunces groundes and occasions And if nothing be against the faith to go with the best with the mo the better in the sense that séemeth most probable Which Beza here doth not who though in many places he deserue singuler prayse yet in some places he is too singuler which deserueth so little praise that now and then he himselfe forsakes his former translation and either on better aduice comes to other mens or chaungeth his former translation with another of his owne euen where no necessitie nor sufficiēt cause doth enforce him as euen vpon this place 1. Cor. 14.34 cited by our Brethren 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And the common translation is there true and playne ynough Mulieres vestrae in ecclesiis taceant Let your Women keepe silence in the Churches Where not onely Erasmus but Caluine also reteineth the vsuall deriued word euen from the very Gréeke in Ecclesiis whome all the commentaries of the newe writers that I haue looked vpon do follow And all our translations yea euen the Geneua translation also And yet doth Beza forsake it and translate it in Coetibus in companies or assemblies and he altereth this againe in conuentibus in meetinges together sayth that the vulgar translation in the Churches is not apt ynough in this place also in the vers following Because that a woman also is in the church that is of the number of the faithfull when she is at home Neither yet is she biddē to bee silent but in the publike assembly of the church And is this a sufficient reason to alter this word in the churches Who knoweth not that knoweth ought the this word church as it is commonly taken signifieth here not only the place where the sacred assemblies of the faithfull are made but also the faithfull persons so assembled was Beza in doubt least if this interpretation shold haue stood that women shold not speak in the Churches they shold haue bin thought to haue bin forbiddē to speak any where but to be continually in euery place silent because wheresoeuer they be yea though at home they be stil in the church that is of the number of the faithful What a néedlesse fear was this yet if he would haue mended the translation to stop this néedles fear shold he haue mended it to call it a cōpany or assembly or meeting together which though it séem to giue women some licence to speak wher no assembly or cōpany or meeting together is yet doth this indéed restrain them no further than the occasiō that Paul did speak on driues vnto True it is he afterward expoūds himself saying they are not biddē to hold their peace but in the publike cōpany of the church but these words the publike cōpany of the church are in neither of his translations For there is only said in companies or meetings together And yet what he meaneth by the publike companies of the church taking the church as heere he calleth it may not a woman speak in many companies or meetinges together of the faithful if the housholds of the faithful be called churches also may she not speake in her house neither nor to the assemblie of her houshold for fere she shold transgres this precept if they say that is but a priuate church Paul meaneth of the publike assemblies of the church although women then shall gain a great deal more liberty by this glosse then by this hard translatiō of the text yet how much better had it bin both for Bezaes estimation our edification especially for the matter trueth it self for Beza to haue left these nice poynts to haue yéelded to his M. Caluine that as necessity might require this precept of the ordinary course maketh no absolute debar to al manner of women but that nowe and then some may speake lawfully yea and their voyce is requisite euen in the most sacred publike and greatest assemblies or meetings together of the Churches I confesse as I sayd that other excellent men also vse this interpretation but they are more naked thereon then Beza is nor I accoumpt them comparable to him But neither he nor they do so satisfy the simplicitie of the text herein as Musc. and Peter Martyr do Musc. vpon these wordes euery woman praying and prophecying sayth they aske here howe a Woman shameth her heade if she prophecy bare headed when about the end of the 14. Chapter hee commaundeth them to holde their peace in the Church because it is a shame for a Woman to speake in the Churche and 1. Tim. 2. he sayth but I permit not a woman to teache What neede is there say they to bid a Woman not to prophecy bare-headed when shee may not doe it no not couered I aunswere he restraineth a Womans rashnesse that they shoulde not as often-times they are bablatiue leape foorthe to teache and prophecy beeing forgetfull of their sexe Neuerthelesse in the meane season hee doth not extinguish the spirite with the which some beeing inspired did prophecy by foretelling thinges to come Such as were Philip the Deacons daughters and many others which did prophecy according to the foretelling of Ioel Chapter 2. where wee reade this And after these thinges I will poure my spirite vpon all flesh and your sonnes and your daughters shal prophecy For such he pronounceth that they shall shame their head if they pray or prophecy bareheaded Of other he wold giue
Ladie mistresse and gouernour of her owne householde goods and of all the persons in that her family but that another must be her gouernour in the same And yet there are many things in a familie and in the lawes and administration of an householde that she in her owne person is as vnfit and perhaps as vnable to doe or exercise as in a common weale neuerthelesse this letteth not by Gods lawe but that shee not hauing anie husband is the chiefe gouernour of her householde But for the common weale Bodinus addeth And almightie God so often as he testifieth that he will most sharplie reuenge himselfe on the enimies of his name hee threatneth that they shall be subiect to the gouernments and lawes of women as though that were the most extreame of all euils and calamities Bodinus being no great nor sound diuine may the more be borne with in misquoting the Chapter and perchaunce that is not his default but his misreporting of the holie Scripture is in him lesse excusable In the 8. of Esaie God indéed threatneth curses and most dreadful reuenge on the enimies of his name but no such curse of womens gouernment but a curse of the gouernment of such as were men If he meane the third Chapter of Esaie we haue answered the same vnto Danaeus and the same answere may serue him though no Protestant Yea I thinke that when he came into England he wished in his heart if he loued his Countrie that Fraunce were cursed no worse of God vnder their king than England God bée praised for it is vnder our Queene The Prophet speaketh indéede not of anie curse threate or plague of God to come to the state by heroicall women but by effeminate men Yea he that promised that curse promised and that by the same Prophet this blessing And Queenes shal be thy Nurses It were better for that state of Gods Church in France if they felt the comfort of this blessing Moreouer sayth he the Romane lawes haue withdrawen women far off from all ciuil offices and publike functions not onely for that they want prudence as Martian thought when among all women hee sayde onely Pallas wanted a mother beeing begotten of Iupiters braine that it might bee vnderstoode wisedome could not follow from women but also that mens functions are contrarie to the sexe and shamefastnesse of women If Bodinus had anie shame or grace or truth or wisedome or wit but so meane as might beséeme such a man hee woulde neuer haue let these wordes escape him Doth he thinke to plaie out the matter thus with this vnfauourie iest that Minerua had no mother of whome for her wisedome the Poets fained that she sprong out of Iupiters braines Was not Bodiuus brainlesse or had he more braines than wit when hee wrote this What Martian iested whether he meane Martian the Emperour or Martianus Mineus or Martianus Rota is to little purpose If Martianus the Emperour had not found that the Empresse and virgin Pulcheria had had both wit wisedome and prudence in gouernment of the Empire hee had not come to the gouernment of it Haue not diuerse women both Quéenes subiects excelled in prudence If Bodinus did not leauer delight to alleadge Poets than Scripture hee shoulde haue found many commended for their great wisedome and prudence farre passing Pallas If the Poets also did not rather giue vs to vnderstand in the person of Pallas that not onelie in man but also in woman wisedome and prudence namelie of gouernment in peace and warre was the onelie and speciall gifte of God comming not by the parents father or mother but that God of his méere influence inspired this gifte of prudent gouernment not onelie to man but vnto woman euen as he pleased and as wée reade the examples and finde the present experience in our Pallas such another indéede as France could neuer shewe the like and therefore Bodinus braines did lesse conceiue it As for that hee sayth of the Romane lawes and the practise of their estates wee haue verie sufficientlie inough séene the quite contrarie And haue likewise discharged that shifte that for Women to deale in mens functions is contrarie to their sexe and shamefastnesse The publik supreme gouernment of a kingdome is no such peculiar function of a man but that it is competible both to man and woman and the calling and gifte of God in which estate they whosoeuer represent God and his power in regarde whereof neither person nor sexe of male or female is respected as wee haue séene not by Poettes fictions but by cléere testimonies and examples of the Scripture And yet euen Poets recommende vnto vs some wise women for their gouernment besides Pallas But here Bodinus comming to examples telleth howe nothing troubled the Romane Senate more than that the Emperour Heliogabalus brought his mother into the Senate not to giue her sentence but to beholde that most holie assemblie of the Citie Which also sayth hee seemed newe vnto our auncestours when Mawd the Countesse of Arthoise was present while the Councell iudged Robert Arthoise his cause But if it seeme absurde and ridiculous for women to intermeddle in the functions and assemblies of men much more absurde ought it to seeme that those things which appertaine to the maiestie of the gouernment should be laide open to the lust of women but most absurd to beare the Scepters If Bodinus would tell the truth I thinke he woulde saie that the Senate of Rome although at that time God wot not verie holie was a little more troubled with the presence of that effeminate and monstrous Emperour and with his most dissolute gouernment than with his mothers onelie comming into the Senate house and there so much as but looking on them If neither she nor he had attempted farre worse things than that neither the Senate nor the state had béene much troubled or hurt by them Moesia both the graundmother of him and of Alexander Seuerus and Mammea Alexanders mother did more than thus in the state of gouernment and that without offence vnto the Senate or detriment vnto the state But whatsoeuer they did haue wee not heard of many farre better examples than that wicked mother of the monstrous Heliogabalus As of Debora sitting in iudgemen of Iudith making her oration before all the assemblie of the Elders and people and of diuerse others Doth Bodinus come in with such an outcrie and amazement at the onelie comming of a woman into an assemblie and but beholding or hearing of the Iudges Neither Moses in his sitting in iudgement nor Salomon in all his roialtie was euer so daintie but that euen women also might looke vpon them yea and priuate Women come themselues and pleade theyr rightes before them and heare their inditements But it was newes in Fraunce to sée a woman but to come into the place onelie and standing by in silence to
consented vpon to be done And it is one thing to doe or how to doe the things that are consented vpon to bée done and another thing to consent that such things should be done For the Churches regiment in these matters consisteth most in the consent as heere is sayde to authorize them to bee done and the Bishoppes or the Pastors regiment in the authoritie of dooing or executing of them But for the consent of them to be done what is this that they call here a consent of his householde seruants Is it requisite that expresse consent be had of all those that are Christs householde seruants that is to saie of euerie particular person in the Church What if it séeme otherwise to some one or few that will giue no consent thereto but dissent Doth this cut off the Churches regiment No. For our Brethren to proue that all thinges must be done with the Churches consent alleadge this sentence If two of you consent vpon earth vpon anie matter whatsoeuer yee shall aske it shall be graunted you of my Father which is in heauen And must this consent then of the regiment of the Church be contracted to anie two of the householde seruants though the most part of all the other that bee no lesse seruants and faithfull seruants of the Lordes household doe dissent from them But wherefore doe our Brethren alleage this sentence to this matter To confirme their regiment in the Church being in comparison but two to two thousand that haue consented to the orders of the Churches regiment now established and they dissent from our consent herein Indéede were it matter of faith in doctrine and substance of religion or anie thing alreadie prescribed not onely the consent of two and the dissent of one is better than the consent of all the rest in errour as wee alleadge Gerson and Panormitane against the Papists when they boast of consent and Councels against the manifest truth of Gods word but when wee all therein agrée with full consent against all the errours and superstitions of the Papists and yet in some matters of Ceremonies of their owne nature indifferent and of those pointes in the Churches regiment that concerne comelinesse order and edification some seruants of the householde dissent from other some whether is it better that many and almost all and the most experient and that in matters of regiment and counted as learned as anie of the other and the chiefest also in authoritie yea the Prince also hauing the supreame authoritie and that in the publyke regiment of Ecclesiasticall matters shoulde giue place to two or three or to a few persons dissenting or that these fewe shoulde leaue their dissention giue place and consent to the greater and better parte of the companie And will God graunt the requests consented vppon by two or thrée and not their requestes consented vppon by so manye thousandes when they are also gathered in the name of Christe as not onelie the people are in our publik praiers but also all the estates of the whole realme and chiefe partes of the Church of England all which haue often bene assembled and giuen alredy their consent to the establishment of this forme of the Churches regiment that we haue And therefore this promise of our Sauiour Christ if it may be drawen to matters of publike Ecclesiasticall regiment doth more and more confirme vs in our forme established that God approues it and was in the middest of them that consented on it and is still in the middest of our assemblies gathered in his name when we direct our actions according therevnto And now seeing that our Sauiour Christ hath neither authorized nor promised to blesse anie other forme of regiment than that which consisteth of the consent and gathering together of his seruants in his name we holde vs content with this simplicitie and therefore we are bolde to saie that God hath promised to blesse and as we haue found the experience if we haue grace in thankfulnesse to acknowledge his manifolde blessings hath diuerse wayes alredie blessed our forme of regiment which with such consent and gathering together of his seruants in his name is established And our brethren haue not to be ouerbolde but rather to feare bethinke thēselues how they gather themselues in consent and consort against this authorized form of regiment least their gathering together bréed a banding in factions of themselues to dissipate the vnitie of the Church to make scismes amongest vs. And nowe where our Brethren conclude this Section saying And therefore wee are bolde to saie that the authoritie of a pastor in publike regiment or discipline separate from others is nothing at all I will be bolde also to saie thus much that it is nothing at all against our pastors authoritie in publik regiment or discipline For as they haue described it he hath none such giuen him nor exerciseth anie such by anie authoritie in this Realme established that is separate from others that is to saie as before our Brethren haue expounded their meaning a Monarchiall authoritie or sole absolute gouernment But that is referred peculiarlie to our Sauior Christ onelie 1. Tim. 6. v. 7. Iude. 4. Otherwise if they meane not such authoritie I dare be bold again to saie thus much that not onlie this exception of Christs Monarchical or sole absolute authoritie is alleaged here in vaine is nothing at all vnto the abridging of the Bishop or Pastors authoritie but that also in manner and matter afore rehearsed a Bishoppe or Pastor hath a greate authoritie separated by himselfe as the foresayde examples and preceptes to Timothie haue declared Let vs then see what is his authoritie ioyned with others first who are so ioyned in Commission with him that without their consent hee can doo nothing We saie therefore that the authoritie of Christ is lefte vnto his whole Church and so to euerie Church that none maye chalenge Episcopall or Metropoliticall authoritie as it is with vs at this day ouer other without great tyrannie and manifest iniurie That the Pastor or the Bishop can doo nothing by his authoritie in the gouernment of the Church without the consent of others ioyned in commission with him for euerie particular act that he must doo our brethren haue not yet proued Yea wee haue shewed the cleane contrarie both in making Ministers and in admitting hearing iudging and determining of their caused by their owne authoritie without anie ioyned in commission with them Not that they did all thinges alone but vsed the counsell and consent of others and perhaps of the whole Churches but that they were not ioyned in cōmission with them nor were their equals in the authoritie of those doings Neither is this conclusion better than the antecedent We saie therfore that the authoritie of Christ is left vnto his whole Church and so to euerie Church c. For my parte I dare not bee thus bolde to affirme
the most cleare light of his confession and aduanced with the honour both of vertue and faith who by his exhortation hath sent before him a plentifull number of Martyrs with stones fire Which ioyfully behâ—lde his wife that cleued to his side wheÌ„ as together with other she was burned He himselfe being halfe burned and ouerwhelmed with stones lefte for dead While that afterwardes his daughter with a carefull seruice of godlines seeketh the corps of her father where he being founde almost dead refreshed and drawen out from his companions whom he had sent before him remained against his will But this as wee see was the cause of his remayning that the Lorde would ioyne him vnto our Clergie and woulde adorne gloriosis Sacerdotibus with his glorious Sacred Priests the abundance of our Elders being desolate And verily he shall be promoted as time shall permitte vnto a more worshipfull place of his religion when through the Lordes protection we shall come in presence In the meane season let this be done that is declared that we may receiue this gift of God with thankes giuing hoping that by the mercie of the Lord such ornaments shall be also furnished that renuing the strength of his Church he wil make our so meeke and humble consistories to flourish in honour Whereby we plainlie see not onely the Bishoppes authoritie ouer the consistorie of the Elders in making this Elder Numidicus an Elder in the cleargie and consistorie of Carthage but also that he was a Preacher exhorter of the people And that Cyprian vseth the name of Presbyter and Sacerdos indifferently as betokning one and the same office for the which we in English wanting a proper name for Sacerdos vse the contraction of the other better and lesse offensiue terme Presbyter calling them Priestes signifying héere Elders ministring the woorde and Sacramentes And of other sortes whom Cyprian calleth Presbyteros Priestes or Elders assistent to the Bishop in the gouernement of the Eccles. discipline I finde no mention nor inkling of them in all the Epistles of Saint Cyprian Neither cite I him in those editions that the Papistes haue of late corrupted him And therefore I maruell not a little that such an excellent man as Beza is God be praysed for his gifts in him was so ouershot to cite these Epistles of Cyprian for a Consistory or Colledge of such Elders gouerned by a Bishop which together with him should haue the spirituall iurisdiction and the gouernment of Eccl. discipline that were not ministers of the worde and Sacraments As for that which Gellius Snecanus citeth also out of Cyprians Epistles Epist. 2. lib. 1. there is no mention there at all of any other of the Clergie then onely of Bishops or of such Priestes as hee calleth Sacerdotes Pastores Which Epistle being written to Cornelius Bishop of Rome by Cyprian and a great number of other Bishops of Aphrica ioyned in counsell with him he vseth there this terme Colleagues meaning other Bishops that were of his owne function But if sayth he there shall bee any of the Colleagues which when persecution vrgeth them thinketh the peace should not be giuen to our brothers and sisters let him in the day of iudgement render a reason to the Lorde eyther of his importune censure or of his inhumaine roughnes Is this any thing to any gouerning Elder in the Church that is not a minister of the worde and Sacramentes As for any other Colleagues eyther of those that hee wrote of or wrote vnto or that wrote with him in this or anie other Epistle I finde none Nor our Brethren can shew any such Elders as they vrge vnto vs in all these Epistles or any other worke of Cyprian But because Gellius Snecanus adioyneth also the testimonie of Tertullian in his Apologie against the Gentiles cap. 39. which wee haue likewise alreadie séene for the manner and forme of the primitiue Churche in their publike prayers neuerthelesse to the fuller serch of these Elders which our Brethren would haue let vs againe consider what Tertullian sayth especially he going not onely immediately before Cyprian about the yeare of our Lorde 200. but being in such estimation with Cyprian that he alwayes called him his Maister I will nowe my selfe sayth Tertullian set foorth the affayres of the Christian faction that I which haue refuted the euill thinges may shewe the good We are a bodie of the conscience of religion and of the truth of discipline and of the couenant of hope We come together into an assembly and congregation that praying vnto God as though by prayers wee strined for workes this force is acceptable vnto God We pray also for the Emperours for their ministers and powers for the state of the worlde for the quietnes of their affayres and for the prolonging of their ende We are gathered together to the reciting of the diuine scriptures if so be that the qualitie of the present time doe compell vs to giue fore-warning or to reknowledge it Certainely we feede our faith with the holy speeches we erecte our hope we fixe our confidence Neuerthelesse we thicken or encrease the discipline of the maisters or of the praecepts by prouocations or inculcations At the same place are also exhortations chasticements the diuine correction for the iudgement is giuen with great waight as among them that are sure that God beholdes them And it is the chiefest foreiudgeing of the iudgement to come if any man do so trespasse that he be banished from the communicating of prayer and of the assemblie and of all the holy partaking The Praesidents or Gouernours are all of them approoued Seniors hauing obteyned this honour not with price but with testimonie What is there here in any of these wordes to prooue that these Elders which as hee termeth it praesidebant did gouerne the congregations medlâ—d not with teaching Or rather doth he not ascribe teaching to theÌ„ When 〈◊〉 saith Wee are a corps of the conscience of religion of truth of discipline and of the couenant of hope When he saith their comming together was for praiers and for recording the Scriptures When hauing added how they fed their faith with the word of God erecting their hope and fixing their confidence they ioyne this withall that neuerthelesse they do increase the discipline of the maisters by their inculcations or often calling vpon them Or if we should conster these wordes Disciplinam praeceptorum for the discipline not of the maisters but of the precepts so that we take it not that they did increase the discipline of mens commandements And doth he not also ioyne exhortations together with castigations of the diuine censure By all which and much more we may well gather out of this place that these Praesidents or gouernours of these congregations were not such as medled not with teaching For if the Elders not teaching were gouerned as Beza said in their Colleges and corporaâ—ions
It behoueth therefore to keepe their precepts euen as the burning fire And let them be such but as for you reuerence ye them as the Lord Iesus Christ because they are the kepers of his place as the bishop is the forme of the Father of al but the Elders of the consistorie of God and ioyning together of the Apostles of Christ for without them it is not the elected church nor the collection of the Saints nor the holie Congregation And again What is the Eldership but a holie institution of a counsellour or confessour of a Bishop What also are the Deacons but followers of Christ ministering to the Bishop as Christ to the Father and working vnto him a cleane vnspottrd work euen as Saint Stephen vnto the most blessed Iames and Timothie Linus vnto Paul and Anacletus and Clement vnto Peter And in the 4. Epipistle to the Philippians Yet I saie to the Bishop and to the Elders in the Lord that who soeuer shall keepe the Passeouer with the Iews or take vp the solemnitie of their feast daies shall be compartner with them that haue killed the Lorde and his Apostles These and such other spéeches of the Presbyteral Elders do declare that whosoeuer in Ignatius name wrote theÌ„ for I dare not so boldly as our Br. doe affirme them to bee his yet in writing thus of the Consistorie of the Elders yea of the Deacons vnder them hee thought them both to meddle with teaching and with the administration of the Sacraments As for the Epistle that is adioyned in the name of Polycarpus the Elders with him it is most manifest howe they ioyned teaching to their gouerning Let the Elders bee simple in all things mercifull conuerting all from errour visiting all the sicke not neglecting the widowes the fatherlesse and the poore but alwaies prouiding good things before the Lorde and before meÌ„ As for anie other that is more suspected stuffe I cite not But be they suspected or be they not as I graunt they are verie auncient so we can finde in none of them such Elders mencioned as our Br. threape vpon vs that there were neither yet in anie ancient autentike Ecclesiasticall historie For as for that Danaeus writing of the office of Elders in Christ. Isagog part 2. cap. 10. citeth saying Lites â—utem dirimere c. But to decide debates and as out of Socrates lib. 7. cap. 37. may be gathered to behaue themselues as Iudges and arbiters I neuer read that it was the function of Elders or parte of their office This proueth nothing at all that the Cleargie of whome Socrates there speaketh were not Ministers of the worde and Sacraments but rather séemeth to inferre that theâ— were and that the Bishop of whome Socrates speaketh woulde not hauâ— them drawe too much awaie from their function to the hearing and determining of such controuersies Albeit Socrates telleth that Siluanus the Bishop did it when as hee sawe the Clarkes to make a gaine by the controuersies of the striuers that from thence forth hee permitted none of the Cleargie to be a Iudge but taking the bils of those that made supplications he preferred one faithfull laie man whom he knewe to fauour that which was â—ight and good to haue the hearing of those matters and so he set free the striuers from contention and controuersie Here the Cleargie that had the dealing in those matters the Bishop by his superior authoritie tooke it froÌ„ theÌ„ appointed it not to the consistorie of Elders but to one laiâ— man But to shew more fullie and plainlie that Socrates alwaies vnderstands by the tearme of Elders onely such as we call Priestes to wit Ministers of the worde and Sacraments Let vs also sée some testimonies out of Socrates because Danaeus citeth him for these Elders And I would gladly search all the testimonies examples generallie if that Caluine Beza Danaeus or anie other author haue ought for the proofe or but probabilitiâ— of these Elders In the 3. Chap. of his first booke he saith And on a certaine time the Presbyters Priests or Elders being present which were vnder him he speaketh of Alexander Bishoppe of Alexandria and the residue of the Cleargie hee treated somewhat more curiouslie and subtillie of the Trinitie and philosophicallie proued that in the Godhead there is the vnitie in the Trinitie But Arius beeing one of the number of the Elders which in that degree were placed vnder Alexander a man not ignorant of the quirkes of Logicke because he suspected that he would afresh bring into the Church the errour of the Affricane Sabellius being kindled with the desire of contention declined to an opinion cleane contrarie to the opinion of that Affricane and affirmed that if the Father begat the sonne he that was begotten had a beginning of his being And that thervpon it is cleere that there was a time when the sonne was not that necessarily it followed that he had his being of nothing When he had concluded with this new kinde of reason and neuer before heard of he stirred vp many of them to seeke after those matters and of a little sparke was kindled a great great flame c. Wherevpon Alexander calling a councell of many Bishops he deposed saith Socrates Arius and the fautors of his opinion from the degree of the Eldership By which it plainly appeareth that these elders were ministers and teachers of the worde And to this not onelie accordeth Ruffinus lib. 10. Eccl. hist. cap. 1. saiâ—ng A certaine Elder at Alexandria named Arius a man more religious in shew and forme than vertue began to set forth certaine wicked points concerning the faith of Christ c. And Theodoretus lib. 1. cap. 2. yet more plainlie In these times saith he Arius which was in the companie and order of the Elders and had the authority of interpreting the diuine Scriptures When he saw the gouernment of the Sacerdotall Priesthood or Bishopricke to be committed to Alexander being impatient of enuie wherewith he was chafed he began to seek occasions of prouokements of discords and striuings And albeit the dignity of the man and his laudable administration brake off the web of all slaunders yet coulde not enuie let him rest The enimie therefore of truth hauing gotten this fellow he moued and stirred vp the waues of the Church and so prouoked him that he durst openly gainsay the Apostolical doctrine of Alexander As for Alexander he auouched the speeches of the diuine Scripture that the sonne is of the same dignitie with the Father and hath the same essence with his begetter But Arius fighting against the truth called him a creation and a worke made Adding those wordes that there was some time when he was not Which things may better be knowen out of the Scriptures themselues These things did he not only in the Churches continually but also in other outward assemblies and meetinges and treating vpon them house by
life to execute anie part of a Deacons office neither are chosen for that ende For although there be not now such vse of this office concerning the distribution of goods to the poore and attendance on the tables as was then in vse yet séeing that Stephen can not be said to haue gone beyond the bounds of his office in preaching the word being but a Deacon for other publike Ecclesiasticall function we read of none that he had either before or after if he then that is now made a Deacon haue the purpose as manie haue by the grace of God to become afterward a Preacher or Minister of the word and in the meane time purpose withall for a while to giue his attendance on the Ministers that they may the better imploy themselues in the Ministerie of the word of and their selues learne to become the readier to be made Pastors can it be trulie said of these that they neuer purposed in their life to execute anie part of a Deacons office neither are chosen for that ende But they say this differeth nothing in the worlde from the superstition of Poperie where the office of Deacons was conferred onelie as a steppe vnto Preesthood That this was not Poperie vnderstanding Priesthood not as the adversaries vnderstande it for a Sacrificing Ministerie although wee haue séene sufficient proofe out of Gualter Aretius the Magdeburgenses and Hyperius out of Ambrose that teaching and ministring the Worde and Sacraments as the parties were able and occasion serued was a parte also of the Deacons office notwithstanding let vs héere sée further what Kemnitius saith thereon And because saith he the Apostles did afterwarde take out of the Deacons into the Ministerie of teaching those that were tried as Stephen Philip it is gathered that this is the vse also of these degrees or orders that they shoulde bee prepared and tried before in the lesser that afterwarde the more weightie offices of the Ministerie might the safelier and with more profite bee commended vnto them And this is that which Paule saith 1. Tim. 3. Let them be first tried and so minister And againe They that in the Deaconship haue ministred well shall get vnto theÌ„selues a good degree Thus notablie saith Kemnitius euen in confuting the Poperie that was vsed in the abuse of this office This therefore can not be called Poperie nor ought to be misliked to make it one ende and that an excellent ende and purpose of making Deacons to bee a steppe vnto the Priesthoode or Eldership in the Word and Sacraments And so vnderstanding necessarie for conuenient or expedient it may be well auouched that it is necessarie that euerie one which is ordeined a Priest or pastorall Elder should first be a Deacon The wordes of our Brethren following And yet when he is made a Deacon hee is but an Idoll yea scarce an Idoll of a Deacon hauing no resemblance at all vnto a Deacon indeed but that he is a man are but words of passion which the apparance of the truth yea the contradiction in the wordes themselues doo sufficientlie confute For if he be made a Deacon then he is a Deacon or else he is not made a Deacon And how is he become an Idoll Is there anie Idolatrie committed vnto him Or whereof is he an Idoll They say he is scarce an Idoll of a Deacon Do they meane by scarce an Idoll that he is not an Idoll For quod vix fit non fit Or that he is somewhat an Idoll of a Deacon But howe is he anie part an Idoll of a Deacon if he haue not indeede so much as anie resemblance at all vnto a Deacon but that hee is a man What and are all men Idols too But as though there were héerein a great prophaning of Gods Institution they tell vs how God will not suffer it vnpunished especiallie when it is not mainteined of ignorance or infirmitie but defended against knowledge and vpon wilfulnesse They should haue first proued that we prophane Gods institution of the Deacons office then brotherlie admonish vs of these threates God be praised considering the state and times of the Church now our vse of this office is not prophane but holie If anie prophane it it is a personall not a reall prophanation So did Iudas prophane the Apostleship and Nicholas the Deaconship We vsing it no worse than to the ende and purpose to make it a triall and preparatiue or as they terme it a steppe vnto the Priesthood or Eldership of the Word for anie thing that they alledge to the contrarie wee néede so litle feare their threates of Gods punishment in this behalfe that we rather hope in God to continue it with his fauour blessing Neuerthelesse if any errour can be shewed and prooued for my part I may erre of ignorance and infirmitie but by Gods grace I will defend none against knowledge vpon wilfulnes so it be cléerelie proued out of the worde of God not of men be they neuer so famous For if they bring men as Caluine Beza Danaeus c. Whome I confesse in all thankfulnesse to be in manie and great thinges most singular instruments of Gods glorie in this our age yet as we haue séene wee maye well oppose them to their owne selues or as easilie reiect them as admit them alledgâ—â—g not the scripture it selfe but their onelie interpretation of it except they firmelie prooue their interpretation Now on these slender premisses our Br. verie looselâ—e conclude saying Therefore the Collectors are more like to Deacons a great deale than those that the Bishops make Deacons For first they haue after a sort election of the Church whereas the other haue but the approbation of one man And secondlie they gather and distribute the common almes vnto the poore which the other neuer thinke of But yet we may not allowe them for lawfull Deacons indeede because they are not alwayes indued with such qualities as the Apostle requireth 1. Tim. 2. For they ought to be men of good estimation in the Church ful of the holie Ghost and of wisdome that should be chosen Act. 6. For as it is an office of good credire so ought the person to be of good reputation Therefore saith Saint Paule that those Deacons that Minister well doo get vnto them selues a good degree and great libertie in the faith which is in Christ Iesus Insomuch that Saint Paule himselfe dooth salute in speciall wordes the Deacons next to the Bishops or ouerseers in the Church of Philippi We read also what worthie men were chosen to be the first Deacons as Stephen the firsâ— Martyr and Philip which afterward was an Euangelist when the Churche was dispersed through the persecution raysed about Stephen So that euerie ignorant contemptible person is not to be allowed vnto this office but as godly wise and worshipfull as may conueniently be found in the congregation may not thinke themselues too good to
to be appointed and howe they shoulde afterward be kept Of the difference betweene necessary and not necessarie matters Of the signe of the crosse at baptisme Of baptising in the Font. Of kneeling at the communion And of wearing the Surplesse Whether the recusant ministers be displaced onely or cheefely for these ceremonies Of those ministers commendation by our brethren For their moste diligent preaching their moste feruent praying and their moste reuerend Ministration of the Sacramentes Lastly of the pure caeremonies that the councell should ordeine expedient for the time and persons and the punishing of the breakers of them WE haue declared before that there is a double authority of the pastor the one ioyned with the Elders of the Church whereof he is pastor the other with the synode or holy assemblie whereof hee is a member Of the former we haue intreated hetherto Now it followeth that wee speake of the later WHen our Brethren beganne to enter into their Learned Discourse of these last Officers in their Tetrarchie to witte the Deacons they sayde page 100. Wee must therefore returne to the authoritie of the pastor which hee hath ioyned with the Elders of the Church whereof hee is pastor And heere nowe after their Treatise of Deacons telling vs of the double authority of the pastor the one ioyned with the Elders of the Church whereof he is pastor the other with the synode or holy assemblie whereof he is a member of the former wee haue intreated hitherto nowe it followeth that wee speake of the later except their Deacons be pastors or at leaste haue some part of their office and authoritie ioyned with the pastorall Elders of the Church I woulde faine learne howe these sayings hang together but to passe ouer this let vs come nowe to the later authoritie of the pastors that with the synode they say followeth There ariseth oftentimes in the Church diuers controuersies which cannot bee otherwise expressed pertaining to the state of the whole Church then by a generall assemblie of the pastors of that Churche which is called a synode or Generall counsell That diuerse controuersies oftentimes and to oftentimes arise in the Church with heartie greefe thereat and with present experience we cannot but confesse it and lament it And if licence be permitted thus to preach and print what euerie one please in Discoursing vpon the Ecclesiasticall Gouernment when will controuersies ceasse if not increase dailie more and more but what meane they by this can not these controuersies bee repressed nor yet expressed otherwise than by a general assemblie of the pastors of that church which is called a synode or generall counsail Can they not be so much as expressed without a synode nor without a Generall counsaile Howe coulde they haue arisen into controuersy if they had not beene before expressed Yea the light and trueth of them by other meanes also then by a synode and that a generall Counsayle maye bothe bee expressed and the controuersies of them repressed too as many haue bin oftentimes by the Learned Discoursers writings of the Fathers And what meane they againe by these wordes There ariseth oftentimes in the Church diuerse controuersies which cannot be otherwise expressed perteining to the state of the whole Church than by a generall assembly of all the Pastors of tâ—at Church which is called a Synode or generall Councell If those controuersies pertain to the state of the whole Church why say they that they can not bee otherwise expressed than by a generall assemblie of all the Pastors of that Church Are all the Pastors of that Church where the controuersies pertaining to the whole Church doe arise the whole Church or doe they meane that a generall assemblie of all the pastors of that Church which Church is called a Synode or Councell is the whole Church and are they also the Pastors of the Synode or rather Pastors of their particular and seuerall Churches as they sayde better before but members onely of the Synode or holy assembly and so do they say this is a Synode or generall Counsell Euery generall Counsell may be called a Synode but euery Synode cannot be called a generall Counsell These things me thinks beit spoken vnder their correction might haue beene if not more Learnedly Discoursed yet more clearely expressed that wee might haue better vnderstood their meaning and so wee might giue them if neede bee further aunswere Also there bee diuerse cases wherein seuerall Churches are driuen to pray the ayde of the Synode where matters can-not bee determined among them-selues For this cause the holy Ghoste hath ordeyned these holy assembles with promise that they beeing gathered together in the name of Christe hee him-selfe will bee among them In case this our Brethrens platforme were in place wee shoulde then haue more than good store of these diuerse cases in euery seuerall Church and might soone bee brought into such a doubtfull and pitifull case that wee shoulde bee driuen to pray the ayde not of the Synode so much as of any body if any but God allonely in so diuers cases coulde relieue vs. But nowe put case that in diuers cases the seuerall Churches are driuen to pray the ayde of the Synode where matters cannot be determined among them-selues will the seuerall Churches be all of them content with whatsoeuer that Synode shall determine of whome they pray ayde And what if the Synode can not agree among them-selues and some determine this way and some that way or one Synode determine the cleane contrarie to another when shall the cases bee fully determined among them and hath it not beene so I speake not against Synodes or Counselles generall or Prouinciall of which there is and hath bene in the Church for determining of diuers cases and controuersies very needefull and very excellent vse and remedie Howe soeuer Gregorie Nazianzene sayde that hee neuer sawe good effect in any But I speake onely of the state of them as our Brethren woulde haue them ordered and for that when euerie seuerall Church had set vp this Ecclesiasticall Gouernment and tetrarchie that that they haue here in this Learned Discourse prescribed when wee shoulde haue diuers cases diuers controuersies diuers wayes still arising It is not their Synodes that coulde determine appease or stoppe them if they made them not more diuers and contentious then before or raised not diuers controuersies and cases more among them The holy Ghoste I graunt ordeyned holy assemblies And the promise that they beeing gathered together in the name of Christe hee him-selfe will bee among them stretcheth also vnto the holy assemblies of Godly Synodes and Councelles But did not our Brethren heere apply this sentence of our Sauiour Christ Mat. 18. Pag. 81. Vnto the seuerall assemblies consistories of the Gouerning Elders Yea that place descendeth downe euen to two or three and that also wheresoeuer And yet may two or
abuse and pollution beeing expreslie abolished and onely a good purpose and vse of them decreed the same are as much besides for the goodnesse of the purpose and vse for the verie authoritie of the decree to be for the time as farre foorth receyued as the other meates beeing otherwise lawfull in them-selues yet being for good purposes and vses of them by the authoritie of the decree for the time forbidden were then and for that time to be refused But that was done also say they for the forbearing the weaknes of the Iewes in abstinencie from eating bloud and strangled which was forbiddeÌ„ by God before Moses time to teach that childish age of gods people to absteine from crueltie As in Genes 9.4 Although the time before the comming of Christe bee called of the Apostle Gal. 4. ver 3. a childish age when wee were Children saith he wee were in bondage vnder the rudimentes of the worlde yet when the fulnesse of time was come and Christe reuealed receiued and the Gospell established in calling still that primitiue age a childish age we must take good heede that the Papistes and other Heretikes take not aduantage by these spéeches that say the Church of Christe in the Apostles times was but as weake as a Childe or babie and afterwarde grewe to ripe perfection And albeit I graunt these temporarie degrees were made cheefely in respect of some such persons among them that were but weake and as it were of childish age in the knowledge of Christe and the Christian libertie notwithstanding euen for these weake childrens sake the strongest and all for the time that those decrees were in force were bound to obey them And that priuate person which publikely had broken or controlled these degrees of the Church in these caeremoniall matters which onely for this expediencie were decreed though the matters otherwise in them-selues were such as might lawfully haue beene broken or controlled had greatly offended euen so whatsoeuer these caeremoniall matters that we and our Br. doe nowe striue for are otherwise in their own nature free and indifferent and so might bee receyued or refused or haue otherwise in the vse of them beene abused yet being nowe by the Church of God decreed to be well vsed and that with expresse cautions against all the former abuses of them and that with full freedome of conscience wherein the Christian libertie most consisteth what priuate person soeuer shoulde attempt publikely to breake or controll them shoulde offer manifest iniurie to Gods Church If we be the Church of God as I hope we be that thus haue decreed them They say such caeremoniall Constitutions are but temporall Neyther do we goe about to make them perpetuall And yet heerein wee must note also a difference from those Constitutions that were no longer in force then for a certaine time as the absteining from bloud and strangled and those that may perpetually bee kept if there be perpetuall causes of them And this their selues confesse that they are so long to be retained as the cause continueth sor which they were made And they say true herein But since the cause of the making of our caeremoniall constitutions doth continue howe are they not then to bee still reteined vntill the cause shall cease or that by the same authoritie whereby they were ordeyned they be also aâ—tered or remooued But say they so that if weakenesse cease or be turned to obstinacie they are no longer to be reteyned If the weakenesse say I cease generallie or generally bee turned to obstinacie that were in-deede another matter But if weakenesse cease in some and remayne in other or in some but not generally or in the moste part nor generally be turned to obstinacie but in some then the cause of the Lawe respecting not particulars doth not cease and therefore the caeremoniall constitutions decreed by the lawfull Synode are still as before to be reteined Also for order an comelisse and best aedification the Synode hath to determine what shall be obserued in particular charges as of time place and forme of preaching and praying and administring of the Sacramentes For who shoulde bee able to knowe what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to Gods worde but they that bee teachers and preachers of the same vnto all others For it is absurde that they should bee taught by such these smaller thinges as ought to learne the trueth of them in all matters Vnderstanding the Synode in his proper sense for the orderlie and lawfull assemblie not of this or that particular Citie Shire or Diocesse but of the whole Prouince Realme or state and withall not preiudicating the supreme autoritie of the Christian Magistrate I grant that the Synode hath to determine for order comelinesse and best aedification what shall bee obserued both in particuler thinges and through out the whole state As not onely of the time place and forme of preaching and praying and administring of the Sacrament but also of Discipline and of Ecclesiasticall Regiment to the ends aforesaid As for the reason héere alleaged For who shoulde be able to know what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to Gods Worde but they that bee teachers and preachers of the same vnto all others I allowe the same no further than by comparison that they which are the Teachers and Preachers of the same vnto all others haue better cause to knowe in generall what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to the Worde of God than any other haue But to say simplie as heere our Brethren doe who shoulde be able so much as to knowe it but they that bee Teachers and preachers c. is a greate deale me thinketh vnder their correction too presumptuous a question May not a man bee able by Gods grace to knowe thus much as what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to Gods Worde except hee bee his selfe a Teacher and Preacher of the same vnto all others Yes verily and to knowe much more euen in the greatest controuersies of Doctrine as God bee praysed there are many godly learned both men and women among vs that are not vnfurnished with such knowlâ—â—ge Yea what were the teachers and Preachers at first them selues Did they take vpon them to teache and preache the same vnto all others before they had the knowledge hereof or did they teache and preach immediatly vpon their getting knowledge or was the knowledge suddenly by inspiration giuen them with their entring into this function as S. Paules wordes to Timothie may be vnderstood Dispise not the gift that is in thee which was giuen thee by prophesy with the laying on of hands of the Eldership 1. Tim. 14. And yet Timothy was able to know these thinges before insomuch that S. Paule sayth to him 2. Tim. 3.15 And that thou haste knowne the holy Scriptures of a childe And some men can excellentlie dâ—clare their knowledge also of
these thinges before The Synode preaching with more eloquence and knoweledge too than many of these our Learned Discourses and yet bee no Preachers of the same vnto all others But what is their reason that they imagine none is able to knowe these thinges but teachers and Preachers of the same vnto all all others For say they it is absurde that they shoulde bee taught by such in these small thinges as ought to learne the trueth of them in all matters To an humble minded man and glad to learne this is no absurditie A godly and learned Preacher may eyther bee as ignoraunt or not so skilfull expert or prouident in some thinges yea nowe and then in some of these small things as some other may be that are no Preachers And if controuersies of them be mooued in the Synode consisting of Pastors it is a signe that all the Preachers haue not such knowledge of them but that they also may be to seeke and learne Yea the smaller things they be the Preachers may perhaps haue lesse imployde themselues in the study or search of of such smal thinges or not remember themselues so well as an other lesse learned which is no preacher may And a lowly spirit will not disdaine to learne great matters of his inferior in learning though he be no Preacher Moses learned of Iethro how to dispose his iudgemeÌ„ts more orderlie both in small matters and in great Neither is there indeede if the Preacher set aside all haughtie conceits of his owne singular doings and deuises any absurditie at all or shame herein but that it may beseeme him wel inough and he were better then he is sometimes to take notice and to bee taught of some godly wise learned and experient men that are no Preachers yea and of some women too now and then not only in some such small things but also in matters of great importance as Iudith taught the Elders and Pastors of Bethulia Although I graunt they againe ought to learn of the Preachers the trueth of Gods word in all matters Neither in these diuers kindes of teaching is any absurditie so long as their manner of teaching is not opposite nor that these laâ— persons be take vpon them as an ordinarie office nor do it of arrogancie and controulment nor do it as publike teachers preachers vnto the publike preachers and teachers of them nor do it to defaceand blemish the estimation or authoritie of their teachers and preachers nor doe it in all things but in these thinges Which heere their selues confesse are but small thinges being done in this order they ought to take no scorne to be reueuerently remembred or to be taught of them were it neuer so true that they which are no teachers and preachers ought to learn the trueth of them that are teachers and preachers in all matters which notwithstanding thus again generallie to auouch is a great ouer ouershot For there are many and those good matters besides religion and Eccl. matters and there is also a truth of them and yet men are not bound to learn the truth of them onely at the mouth of the preacher no nor the preacher is bound to know them or can or if he could ought to teach them And therefore this again is too largely spoken for all matters and seemeth to proceede of too great a reach and too high a liking of them-selues and too much incroching vpon others But what now is their conclusion hereupon This authoritie therefore cannot bee graunted vnto anie ciuill Christian Magistrate that without consent of the Learned Pastors and Elders yea against their consent of whome as in some respect hee is a feeling member hee may lawfully make caeremoniall Constitutions whereby the Church must bee gouerned in meere Ecclesiasticall matters Is there no meane but the drift of this conclusion must needes hee directed against the Ciuill Christian Magistrate howe chaunce our Brethren did not looke a litle neerer among them-selues and then they shoulde haue séene howe they had throughly payde and cleane ouerthrowne their Gouernours that are not teaching Elders whome they make to bee a greate part of the Synode in examining and determining Ecclesiasticall causes and Ecclesiasticall regiment and that the pastors can doe nothing without them But when this question commeth blustring in Who shoulde bee able to knowe what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to Gods worde but they that bee teachers and Preachers of the same vnto all others Dare these Seniors nowe peepe out their heades and say like Gouernours indéede who shoulde we shoulde You what are you we wit ye well we are the Gouernours of all the Ecclesiasticall Discipline and regimeÌ„t Tush tush are ye teachers preachers of the same vnto al others No indeede that wee be not wee can not preach nor teach but wee can rule the matter with you that be teachers and Preachers No no go seeke your rule and Gouernment in other matters If yee bee no Teachers and preachers ye meddle not heere No wit yee well againe yeâ— are not able and much lesse worthie so much as to know what order comelinesse aedification requireth according to Gods worde and so least of all to examine decide and determine the same What ought not you though yee bee Seniors and gouernours to learne of vâ— that are your teachers and preachers wee tell you plainly and roundly at a worde It is absurde that they that are teachers and preachers shoulde be taught by such in these small thinges and it were much more absurde in greater thinges as ought to heare and learne the trueth of them in all matters Loe Howe these bigge and loftie wordes haue vtterlie blanked and giuen checke mate to these our gouerning Elders that we not teachers and preachers But whust wee pray you no more of this for we meant not this against our gouerning Elders though they be neither Preachers nor teachers but wee direct it altogether against the Ciuill Christian Magistrate Yea forsooth my learned Brethren macte virtuâ—e now ye shewe your selues indeede Yerke at the ciuill Christian Magistrate and euer so far as ye may do it with safetie spare not but still come in with one byous â—ling or another at the prince For this is plauâ—â—ble to the people as thogh ye were no accepters of persons in daring to speake almost any thing against the ciuill Christian Magistrate And doth your teaching and preaching tend to this that for feare the ciuill Christian Magistrate shoulde teach you though hee preach not to you another lesson you woulde haue it thoughâ— absurde that they shoulde teach you that shoulde be taught by you as heere you say in all matters yea that they are not able to know what order comelinesse and ediffcation requireth according to Gods worde except they them-selues were teachers and preachers I looked all this while when yet now at the length our Br. would begin to enter in
contrary And shall wee dare to saye on the other side finding both the example heere alleadged by themselues Acts 14. and Saint Paules preceptes to Timothie and to Titus of ordeyning pastorall Elders to bee made without mentioning of the Churches elections that the Apostles durst not ordeyne any Pastors with the Churches elections no wee dare not say so but that the Apostles might haue done it with them or without them as they thought best hauing the warrant of Gods Spirite and as the occasion serued for their ordeyning of the Pastors And therefore I meruell how our Brethren durst so boldly affirme that the Apostles not only did it not but durst not doe it Secondly say they that they giue an office without a charge and sende him to seeke a flocke where he can finde it Our Bretheren here begin to descant vpon the names of Pastors and office Neither doe wee denye but that the name Pastor betokeneth an office whether wee vnderstande it as hee is onely a Minister of the worde and Sacramentes and so he is sayde to haue taken Orders or as he hath a peculiar flocke to minister the worde and Sacraments in as we commonly call the Rector Parson Vicar or Curate the pastor of such and such a Church or Parish The worde Pastor in both sences may bee comprehended in the name of an office And yet here if wee should goe as strictly to worke as our Bretheren doe which curiositie I mislike not in them to finde out all the quirkes in the worlde to beate out the trueth more throughly wee shall easely see great differences in the proprieties of these names and words of an office and of an order Albeit they may well bee taken and oftentimes are vsed indifferently But the question is here whether any office can bee giuen and the man truely called an officer without a charge of a place or a flock giuen withall vnto him whereof he is and may bee called the officer They denye it and I say he may and my reason is this The word office hath not alwaies relation to the charge of a place onely and that specially of a certeyne place where or of persons among whome the office is exercised but of the matter it selfe and â—uetie whereof the office consisteth in resâ—â—t of which matter the other are as it were but accidentall which our Bretheren here make all or principall The Prophetes were Prophetes before they had any certeyne places were they prophecied The Apostles were called and in office were Apostles before they were sent into any message of their Apostleship And Saint Paule calleth all both Apostles and Pastors Ministers 1. Cor. 4.1 though all of them had no certeyne standing places designed to them to minister in and yet were they all of them in the very office of the Ministerie full Ministers of the worde and Sacraments if wee may so properly call the Ministerie of the worde and Sacraments an office as an order In deede Saint Paule sayth of an office Rom. 12. vers 7. or an office on the office That is to say he that hath an office let him bee diligent in his office But he assigneth not any certeyne places and charge of flockes to all the offices that he there reckoneth vp Although as it is an old saying so it is not vntrue Priesthood and Knighthood are orders rather than offices And Priesthoode I meane not the Popish sacrificing Priesthoode but the Pastorall Eldership may well be called an order when the making of a Priest or pastorall Elder is called the ordering or the ordeyning of him and our Bretheren themselues do well call it the giuing of orders Knighthood now being likewise more properly called an order than an office when a man hath receiued the order of Knighthood it followeth not that he must be a Knight of this or that place as were some Knightes namely the Knightes of Prussia or the Knightes late of the Rhodes and now of Malta neither followeth it that he that made him Knight must alwaies withall giue him landes and liuing and yet all the better for the Knight if hee so doe and more fitte for his order to haue sufficient maintenaunce and though hee had but xl pounde a yeere which was called a Knightes fee. Howbeit hée mâ—ght bâ—e a Knight though a poore Knight without any such fee. For the order is one thing and the maintenaunce of him in his order yea his charge to doe his duetie iâ— his order is another thing and not the order it selfe But say they this is as vnreasonable a thing as iâ— one were chosen not to be a Knight but to bee a Churchwarden and had neuer a Church to keepe or made a Constable that had neuer a Towne or place appoynted whereof he should be Constable The similitudes of these two offices and of Church-warden and of a Constable are not a like to the order or if they will so call it to the office of the ministerie for bicause that these two Offices haue a necessary relation in them selues not onely to the office but also to the place where the paâ—tie is the officer so that if no place be assigned them there is no such officer made To which kinde of officers the old distinction serueth that the office the place be distincta ratione non re They cannot in the act of them be separate though they be distinguished in the reason of them And yet we see that in some such offices as in which besides the office there is ioyned with all a degree of honour and dignity though the relation of the office in respect of the place where the office laye doth cease as either the place being wasted or possessed by another and he dispossessed yet may his degree of dignitie not cease or be in him vtterly exstinguished so long as the right of the office is in him though the exercise and action of the office together with the place and other appendices of the office bee taken from him as a Kinge Duke Earle or Lord though he loose be it not by his own demerite resignation or lawefull depriuation his Kingdome Dukedome Earledome or Lordshippe but by an others intrusion or occupation yet is he still both called and is in deedâ— a King a Duke an Earle a Lord by reason he still holdeth the right of the office and capacitie to repossesse it though he haue neither possession action nor exercise of it at this instante Notwithstanding as it is sayd in the old verse on fortunes wheele regno regnaui regnabo sum sine regno He may be rex sine regno euen the lowest degree of them all and yet rex still Yea to descend to baser offices also not only a professor of liberal sciences but euen one professing mechanicall artes or as we commonly terme him a handicrafts man although he exercise not alwaies the action of his Function nor occupie in his occupation or
they renounce they vaunt of long studie in which they could not for shame make any comparison therfore they flie to the example of yong Elihu to the reuelatiō of gods spirite as though their learning and these platformes came by reuelation to thē on a sudden and doe they now vpon the smattering of a little learning or for the small time beit of their earnest studie come in as it were vying withall the B. making exception of none but obiect to them all that they are not all of the best learned nor all of longest studie But what néede long study for greate or best learning among them when their gouerning Elders in euery congregatiō shal go for men learned in diuinity that haue little leasure to studie long or perhaps at all and euery Pastor holden for a learned diuine andfor a learned Preacher although he were but new made a Pastor And as for sound iudgement they measure that after their own iudgement and conceite esteéeming euery mans iudgement albeit he be of neuer so long studie or greate learning to bee no sounde iudgement if it sounde not soundlie in their forestalled Iudgement As also their ouer great preposterous zeale condemneth all the Bishops and all vs their bretheren in the Gospell of Christ to be but Popish and without all zeale if wée yeilde not straight way to them in all the deuises of these newe platformes And no maruell then if the shoue in this among the residue that the Bishops be not all of the best example Would God both they and wee and all our bretheren were if not of best yet of better example than wee be For to say the truth the better of both yea the best of vs all therein may be amended Neuerthelesse though it be an offence vnto the weake and a steyne vnto the authoritie yet not so but that the authoritie it selfe is good and maye stand euen in those persons that are not all of best example no nor all of the greatest zeale nor all of soundest iudgement nor all of longest studie nor all of the best learned neither but if the Bishops were in these thinges inferiour to some other or to them or any of them haue any defecte therein yet ought not out bretheren thus to insult vpon them being their fathers that made them Ministers of the Gospell and hauing authority ouer them in the Church were it but for the reuerence and dignitie of their authoritie except indeede they were open enemies to the Faith or manifest wicked in the example of their conuersation It should better me thinkes beseemeour brethren to followe the shame fastnesse of Sem and Iapheth than the shamelessenesse of Cham in deriding and reuealing his fathers shame But what do I speaking this of those Children that are growne into such disdaine that they will not acknowledge them to be their Fathers If they saye that in these words they do not thus accuse them all in saying they are not all of the best learned nor all of the longest studie nor all of soundest iudgement nor all of greatest zeale nor all of best example What then do they meane by these so intricate speeches bicause they still place this word all so cunningly in the middle that as it may be called in question whether they referred it to these matters as when we saie a thing is not all of the best that is to say it is but meane or base not all of the soundest that is to saye rotten or corrupted not all of the longest that is but short not al of the greatest that is but little or els that they referre the worde all not to the matter but to the persons as they are not all of the best that is to saye some of them are not of the best and so for the residue of these qualities In which later sence if they shall meane it that though they bee not all of thē of the best learned yet some of thē are of the best learned of the lōgest studie of the soundest iudgement of the greatest zeale and of the best example as it is apparant they cannot for very shame denye these things or the most of them in some of our Bishoppes why then doe they not follow those fewer some than thus for some not so good in these things to shake off all And yet it is well knowne also that there are many other God be praysed besides the Bishops that may compare with any of these our Bretheren the learned discoursers in any yea in all these things But their quarrell is here pretended onely or chiefly at the Bishoppes concluding agaynst them vpon these premisses And therefore not meete to be the onely determiners in Ecclesiasticall matters to the preiudice of the whole Synode This conclusion wee may safely admit were the Bishops neuer so excellent It is not meete neither doe they nor can they take this vpon them which were indeede to the preiudice of the whole Synode Nor the Synod receiueth this preiudice by them nor giueth such authoritie to them to be the onely determiners in Ecclesiasticall matters For euery one that is any particular member of the whole Synode hath both his deliberatiue and determinatiue voyce except wee shall speake of such determination as recollecting all their seuerall determinations pronounceth publikely the sententiall and finall determination of the matters in the name and authoritie of them all as Iames did being Bishop of Ierusalem And yet neither so all the Bishops doe it but one and the chiefest among them as the full resolution of the whole Synode But how will our Bretheren cléere themselues of this whereof they accuse our Bishoppes for they pretending to be Pastors and that Pastors and Bishops be but al one they will then be Bishops euery one that pretendeth to be a Pastor Now though these Bishops admit their gouerning Elders to come to the Synode and to be parts also of the Synode with the Pastors saying that the Synode consisteth principally of Pastors Elders Teachers and men of wisedome iudgement and grauitie as it were of necessarie regents pag. 113. And hereto they vrge the assemblie Act. 15. the Apostles and Elders came together to consider vpon this matter c yet when they come to the determination euen where they say pag. 117. the Synode hath to determine what shal be obserued in particular charges as of the tyme place and forme of preaching and praying and administring of the Sacraments they so make themselues to bee the onely determiners in all Ecclesiasticall matters that disoayning any other should so much as knowe them they say For who should bee able to knowe what order comelinesse and edification requireth according to Gods word but they that be teachers and preachers of the same vnto all others for it is absurde that they should bee taught by such in these small things as ought to learne the trueth of them in all matters Doe
those thinges do appertaine onely to him and the generall Councell And here we beséech our Brethren confessing thus much against the pope as it becommeth good subiectes to their prince to aduise theÌ„selues withall of their former vnaduised spéeches pag. 9 10.84.85.117.1â—8.119 in which places besides their hard termes of Christian princes doe they not giue vnder the name of the Church her authoritie the knowing the hearing the examining the determining the iudging and the punishing of all matters and causes pertayning to discipline gouernment of the Church either to their pastors and teachers or to the Seignories of their gouernors And what differeth this from forbidding princes to meddle with reformation of Eccl. matters or to make lawes pertayning to causes of religion aunswering them that those thinges do appertayne only to them and to their consistories and to their particulaâ— Synodes or generall Councell But when he say they meaning the pope coÌ„meth to debate any thing with his Clergie theÌ„ all lawes and knowledge are inclosed in the closet of his breast And is this any more than to say not onely to the Prince but also to their owne consistorie gouernors of whom their Synodes consist as well as of themselues pag. 117. who should be able to knowe what order comlines aedification requireth according to Gods word but they that be teachers preachers of the same vnto all others For it is absurde that they should be taught by such in these small thinges as ought to learne the truth of in all matters This authoritie therfore can not be graunted vnto any ciuill Christian Magistrate that without consent of the learned Pastors and Elders yea against their consent of whom as in some respect he is a feeling member he may lawfully make ceremoniall constitutions whereby the Church must bee gouerned in meere Eccl. matters Sith therfore they turne al this against the Prince is not this as much as when they come to debate any thing with their Clergie Gouernors that theÌ„ all lawes knowledge is inclosed in the closet of their breasts both from the Prince and from their owne Clergie and Eccl. Gouernors Is not this as much as when they holde their generall Counsels or Prouinciall that all the authoritie must come from them For except they doe allow it it is nothing And how farre differs this froÌ„ the Popes conceit that they also are growen so wise that neither with counsell nor without the Councel they can erre or think amisse in Eccl matters Had they a generall Councell of all those that they call the faithfull ministers that composed this Learned discourse of Eccl. gouernment Well yet there is here some good hope that when our Brethr. shall haue better bethought theÌ„ of these things which they mislike in the Pope debarring the right interest of Christian Princes the verie vggly sight thereof will be as a glasse vnto theÌ„ to sée mislike their owne spéeches and doings in taking vpon them though not the verie same yet so like presumption and vsurpation especially so many and so little states as they are farre inferiour to the Pope and at the verie first péeping out of them yea before they are come to that they would haue thus to insult not onely on the Bishops and to come and set out lawes before themselues are called vnto such authoritie but also thus to blemish and deface the Christian Princes authoritie to abase and debarre it to examine and determine yea to encroch vpon the right and interest in these matters of all Christian Princes and of their owne most godly and gracious Soueraigne But since the sight of their own description of the Popes presumptioÌ„ vsurpation doth begin here to make them stoupe somwhat to the Princes supremacy let them now in good time likewise remember their own sayings pag. 77. 78. where speaking also of the Pope whose intollerable presumption say they as we haue long since banished out of this land so wee wish that no steppe of such pride and arrogancie might bee left behinde him namely that no Elder or Minister of the Churche marke these your owne wordes well good Brethren and turne them not so off against our Bishops that ye forget your selues should chalenge vnto himselfe or accept it if it were offered vnto him any other authoritie than that is allowed by the spirit of God but chiefely to beware that he vsurpe no authoritie which is forbidden by the word of God For wherefore do we detest the Pope and his vsurped supremacie but bycause he arrogateth the same vnto himselfe not onely without the warrant of Gods word but also cleane contrarie to the same Now if the same reasons and authorities that haue banished the Pope do serue to condemne all other vsurped authoritie that is practised in the Church why should not all such vsurped authoritie be banished as well as the Pope we can alleage against the Pope and rightly that which S. Iohn Baptist did aunswere to his disciples No man can take vnto himselfe any thing except it be giuen him from heauen Ioh. 3.27 and that saying of the Apostle to the Hebrewes No man can take vpon him any honor in the Church of God but he that is called of God as was Aaron in somuch that Christ himselfe did not giue himselfe to be an high Priest but he that sayd vnto him Thou art my Sonne this day haue I begotten thee He sayth in another place Thou art a Priest for euer after the order of Melchizedech Now seeing these rules are so generall that the Sonne of God himselfe was not exempted from them but shewed foorth the decree wherin he was authorized by what rule can any man reteyne that authoritie in the Church of God that is not called therunto by the word of God All these words haue our Brethren alleaged triumphantly against the Bishops whose authoritie we haue séene to be throughly grounded on the word of God But for their Consistorie Gouernors to whome they giue such great authoritie we haue as yet after all this shuffling coniecturing pulling and haling of the Scripture of the auncient Fathers and of the old Churches practise to found it vpon we could not yet finde vpon better view therof so much as one good and substantiall proofe or authoritie for it or the example but of one such man And as for their Pastors if none be Pastors but such as are ordeyned after the forme by themselues set downe Pag. 125. saying this is the right election and ordeyning of Pastors grounded vpon the word of God when we come to search better in the word of God we finde not one Pastor so elected and ordeyned And as for their selues these faithfull Ministers none of them neyther that I can learne of were so elected and ordeyned and so they haue eyther no right calling nor authoritie at all but are méere intruders yea méere lay men or else that authoritie that they
seruice to bee obedient to Christe yea to serue God is indeede to reigne And especially it is to bee noted where S. Paule commaundeth prayers and supplications to be made for the conuersion of Kinges vnto the knowledge of the truth and their owne saluation that hee alleageth this reason That wee may lead a quiet peaceable life in al godlinesse and honestie vnder their protection A godlie honest life we may liue vnder enemies of the church and persecutors but a peaceable and quiet life in all godlinesse and honestie onely vnder a Christian prince This thing therefore the Church most humbly desireth of the prince for this end the Church continually prayeth to God for the prince in this respect the Church most obediently submitteth her selfe vnto the prince as a childe to his Nursse that both Prince and people may honor God in this life and after this life reign with Christ euerlastingly We shall nowe haue after these reasons some testimonies of the scripture alleaged but if we shall still holde vs to the point in controuersie whether the Christian prince hath authoritie with the aduise and counsell of his learned clergy to make and set foorth ecclesiasticall decrees and lawes for all persons in his dominion to obserue not one of all these three testimonies here cited out of the scripture do gain-say it yea rather euery one of them doth confirme it The Papistes also alleage this Testimonie of Esay for the superiority of the pope and of the Church ouer all Christian princes and will our Brethren abuse it likewise for their newe clergies authority but who may not see that euen in the resemblaÌ„ces of these metaphors a great authoritie not vnder but ouer the Church is giuen here of God to Christian princes yea eueÌ„ as much in the new testament as was in the olde but by our Brethrens drift they shoulde haue lesse See what an interpretation they make of this prophecye as though the Prophets meaning were altogether to abase the authoritie of Christian princes and not rather cleane contrarie to exalt and extoll it though withall in some respects it be inferiour For except he had called Kinges and Queenes Fathers and Mothers by what neerer title could the Prophet haue called them than Kings to be the nourishing Fathers and Queenes to be the nourishing Mothers of the Church Ioseph was but a nourishing Father vnto Christ and yet sayth the text as well of him as of the Virgine Marie his naturall Mother Luke 2. verse 51. that hee was Subiect vnto them So honorable is the title of a nourishing Father and comprehendeth in it such authoritie Not but that the Princes againe in respect that the Church is the spouse and wife of Christe do humble them selues as Children vnto her And so as they acknowledge God to be their Heauenlie Father they reacknowledge her to bee their mysticall Mother Which not onely they but euerie Ecclesiasticall person also must doe as well and as farre foorth as they though in some other respects the pastors are again spirituall Fathers euen as well to the Princes as to any other of Gods people And so are both the partes of this Prophecie ioyned together that the Princes superioritie is declared in the former part of the sentence Kinges shall bee thy nursing Fathers and Queenes shall bee thy Nurses that neuerthelesse in the other respect they againe bee the Churches Children and therefore it is added They shall worship thee with their Faces towardes the earth and licke the dust of thy feeete But both these partes of prophesy are againe referred to a thirde that followeth And thou shalt knowe that I am the Lorde for they shall not bee ashamed that waite for me As though he sayde to the Church Doe not thou ascribe this vnto thy self but vnto mee by whom and for whom it is done neyther let the Princes bee ashamed as though they did abase them-selues in doing this to thee for they doe it to thee not for thee but for me for whome they waite and haue respect vnto therefore this reciprocall obedience neither of thee to them nor of them to thee for mee shall be anie shame or dishonor either vnto thee or vnto them nor any abasing of their Soueraigne authoritie ouer thee for they shall not bee ashamed that wayte for mee Which last wordes of the sentence our Brethren cleane cut off and leaue out And thus doth Caluine him-selfe expounde the wordes For they shall not be ashamed c. I take this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for a particle causall for it is a continuing speeche which of some is ill cut off and by this argument hee prooueth it to bee equitie that Princes shoulde cheerefully addict them-selues to the Empire of God nor bâ— agreeued to humble themselues before the Church because God doth not suffer them to bee shamed that put their trust in him But hee ioyneth his trueth with our health as though hee should say this shall be an amiable and pleasant subiection c. So that this is no diminishing nor abasing of the Princes authoritie and therefore Caluine also called them before vpon the first words And Kinges shall bee thy noursing Fathers Patrons and Tutors Whereupon sayth hee it is to bee noted that a certayne singular matter is heere required of Princes besides the vulgar profession of the fayth because authoritie and power is of God giuen vnto them that they shoulde defend and procure the glorie of God This in-deede pertayneth vnto all but Kinges howe much greater their power is so much the more ought they to employ them-selues and more studiouslie to haue care thereof And this is the reason why Dauid by name calleth on them exhorteth them to be wise and serue â—he Lorde and kisse the Sonne Heereupon it appeareth howe madde their dotages are which affirme that Kinges can-not bee Christian except they renounce that office For these thinges were fulfilled vnder Christe when as by thâ— preaching of the Gospell Kinges beeing conuerted vnto GOD they atteyned vnto this moste noble degree of dignity wherewith all kinde of Dominions and principalities are excelled that they shoulde bee the noursing Fathers and Tutors of the Church The papistes doe vnderstande that Kinges are noursing Fathers of the Churche none otherwise then that they haue left vnto their sacrificing preestes and Monkes moste large reuenewes wealthie possessions and wide demaynes by which they are fedde fatte as Hogges in a Stye But this education tendeth to a farre other matter then to glutte such vnsatiable gulfes For neyther treateth hee heere of enritching their houses that vnder a false pretext vaunt them-selues to bee the Churches Ministers which was nothing else but to corrupt the Church of God and to destroy it with deadly poyson but of taking away superstitions of remoouing all wicked and naughty worship of promooting the kingdome of Christe of conseruing the purity of Doctrine of
persons being Protestants being faithfull Ministers being learned discoursers would God they would better bethinke themselues It is beyond my learning and a great scruple it is in many mens consciences that think our Br. haue set their conscience on the tenters much charged it rather then any whit discharged it do not according to their dutie therein nor that this their doing is any true or good way of reformatioÌ„ but if ought were amisse to make it much worse if not to marre it quite and to giue licence vnto such a way as would or might bring all things to an vtter deformation and confusion And here it followeth prettely at the hard heeles that might set the matter well forward And to mooue them say they that haue authoritie to put it in practise and to seeke by all lawfull and ordinary meanes that it may take place that it may please God to giue it good successe What meane they here by these perilous spéeches And is this also a part of conscience dutie and the true way of reformation to mooue them that haue authoritie to put it in practise Who are these that haue authoritie whom our Br. would by this their writing moue to put in practise this forme of reformation Would they haue any that haue authoritie in the Realme committed vnto them by and vnder the Queenes most excellent maiestie to attempt this without her maiesties authoritie therevnto whom they called before our most gracious soueraigne when they made their last protestation No wee hope there is none that in her maiesties dominions hath any authoritie committed vnto him will be moued by this writing or by any other writing or solliciting of our Bretheren to put this forme in practise without â—e haue her maiesties authoritie so to doe she hauing now God be praysed long continue it the supreme authoritie of these matters Neither should they that haue but inferiour authoritie to her maiestie yea all the Magistrates in the Realmes of her dominions holding all the authoritie that they haue immediatly or mediatly from her Maiestie and her Maiestie immediatly from God seeke any lawfull and ordinary meanes but vnlawfull and beyond extraordinarie if they should practise that this may take place without her authoritie thereunto especially it being with all the direct ouerthrowe of her chiefe authoritie They doe well to say that they would haue them do it by lawfull and ordinarie meanes wherein our Bretheren differ from the Papists that seeke vijs modis by all meanes to put in practise their desperate resolutions Which as God defeateth and our Bretheren detest so what lawfull and ordinary meanes can they imagine to put this their forme in practise agaynst her Maiesties will that may stand with her supreme authoritie And therefore in my opinion this is very ill done and daungerously spoken of our Br. to cast foorth such suspitious words as to moue them that haue authoritie so to abuse it or as though they would or should be mooued to this practise And for my parte I protest that I like all this whole learned discourse the worse that in the ende and conclusion of all it should come to this drift which verely is not pleasing vnto God nor God will euer I dare warrant it giue it good successe if the winde begin once to blow in at that doore which God forbid that euer we should see that tyme. But what is the tyme that here they speake off At this tyme to be imbraced It should seeme to be at the time of the Parliament as may appeare by the last part of their protestation saying We protest before the liuing God c. and the whole assemblie of all estates of this Realme I meruell much at this practise of our Bretheren that they are so eager in their pursuite to haue their platformes put in practise that they see not how they crosse in this doing their owne writings They are still at euery Parliament offering vp their little bookes for I forbeare to call them Libels to auoyde offence of the reformations that they call vpon vnto the high and most honourable Court of Parliament Wherein although if wee should lay together and conferre all their bookes and formes of reformation that they haue offred vp vnto the Parliaments wee should finde great varieties and some contrarieties among them yet let them agree or disagrée in other things how they shall what doe they meane herein by putting them vnto the Parliament Would they haue these controuersies to bee disputed vpon and determined by the Parliament That is cleane contrary to the chiefe materiall poynts of the very bookes themselues that they offer vp vnto the Parliament For except they will make all the Burgesses in the nether house and all the Lords in the higher house to bee Ecclesiasticall persons and either Doctors and Pastors whom also they make all Bishoppes teachers and Preachers of the word and Sacraments at least wise such Presbyters Priestes or Elders not teaching whom they call Gouernours if they shall be present as any parts and members or necessarie regents of the assemblie and not only as spectatores or auditores tantum if they shall remayne still as lay ciuill or politicke persons so that they can not by their owne Canons haue any voyces at least not determine any thing in Eccl. matters especially so great and important matters as they make them And what would they haue the Parliament then to doe in these things Nay whaâ— will they suffer them to doe Yea what would the Parliament doe when they should finde that in the very bookes offred vnto them of these matters they are prohibited to deale in these matters Yea how can they deale in these matters and allow these Pastors to come in and take them vp for their labour saying vnto them yea my Lords and Maisters dare ye take vpon you or are ye able to deale in these matters or so much as to knowe them For who should be able to know what order comelinesse and aedification requireth according to Gods word but they that bee teachers and preachers of the same vnto all others For it is absurd that they should bee taught by such in these small things as ought to learne the trueth of them in all matters pag. 117. and much more absurd that they should be taught by such in greater matters Yea they ought to learne the truth of them in all matters If the Parliament once heare this thunder cracke conticuere omnes intemtique ora tenebunt If some one among them perhaps doe replie and say If they will not suffer vs to haue any thing to doe in debating and determining of these matters why then a Gods name doe they put them vp to vs or what would they haue vs to do in them except they will giue vs some authoritie of them But they are so farre from giuing vs any such authoritie that they
Whether our bretheren theÌ„selues satisfie the godlie meaning of the statute The Statute Anno 13. The godlie meaning of the statute flâ—â— against our Bretherens discourse How our Bretheren ouerthrow their own ministery How our Bretheren are in daunger of losing their lyuinges by the godlie statute Our bretheren impugning the booke of articles Our brethereÌ„s aduised impugning the articles and maintaining doctrine contrarie thereunto The 34 article of the traditioÌ„s of the church The 35. article of homilies The 36. article of consecrating of Bishops ministers Two pastors in euery congregation How directlie our bretherens learned disc is against these articles The learned disc pag. 130 131. Bridges Two Pastors at least in euerie congregation One Doctor also at least in euery congregation The Number of the gouernors and Deacons not determined At whose charges all theâ—e must be maintayned The factions arising by 2 equall pastors A new disposing of all the parishes in England New disposing of parishes The learned disc pag. 131. Bridges Our Bretheren hauing all thinges at their pleaâ—ure Abuses creeping in after our bretheren haue all thinges at their pleasure Grounds of Gods word Difference of the order grounded vpon gods word and abuses rising of mans corruption What grouÌ„des of Gods word our bretheren alleage The pastors members of the synod The learned disc pag. 132. Bridges What the pastors haue as members of the synod The reformation of the corruptions in Poperie Reteyning corruptions How we reteine anyething that hath bin corrupted The learned disc pag. 132 â—33 and 134. Particular Synods Bridges Corruptions of paâ—ticuler Synods Ordinarie fees of officers The endes of liuings offices and fees The fault of the officer and not of the office Our Brethrens pitie on the poore ministers Our Brethrens mockerie Faultes in Officers Extorting money for â—eâ—ing letters of Orders The dutie of lawefull fees in Registers c. Our bretheren loth to shewe their letters of orders Buying of Bookes For dinners such like matters Selling buying of bookes The presentâ—eâ—â—s not â—eformed PresentmeÌ„â—â— The presentment no more hearde of Reformation of faultes The Summoner caryinge forth the citations and excoÌ„muications The presentment hearde of Bribes not preuayling General coâ—â—â—â—â—ions Absolution not for money The learned disc pag. 123.125.136 137. Choosing of Clearkes of the conuocation house Act. 15. 2. Cor. 4. Bridges Our generall conuocations Our Brethrens contumelious speaches of Chauncelors Lawyâ—â—s Chauncelors and Lawyers Chauncelors or Lawyers in our conuocationâ— Whether our Chauncelors or Lawyers in conuocations be more lay vnlearned in diuitie then our bretherens gouernors our brethenâ— obiecting to chauncelors Lawyers The Bishops seuerall place that th◠〈◊〉 learned 〈◊〉 ninitie Chauncelors Lawyers beare not the greatest sway in our conuocations The Bishops seuerall place in the conuocation Seuerall place The Apostles example Act. 15.6 The Apostles were seuerall by themselues and yet ioyned with the Pastors and the multitude The Bishops higher in thoritie The decrees arâ— of the whole synod not of the Bishops â—â—lie Speaking in the conuocation How euery oÌ„e of the house may speake in the conuocation None excluded the house for not subscribing to the Bishops dâ—cree Subscribing to the articles Whether the booke of articles conteyne any errouâ— Our Brethrens owne acquittaunce for the truth of our religion The distinctioÌ„ of the Canonicall and Apocryphall booâ—es The booke of articles not erroneus The names number of the Canonicaâ—l bookes The numbeâ— and namâ—s of the Apocâ—yphall bookes in the old testâ—ment The canonicall scripture In what words this grosse error should lye The bookes that were neuer doubted of Some of the canonicall doubted of The apocrpha Our Brethrens to quicke censure Ieronimus in prefarioneÌ„ in libros Salamo The eâ—â—â—matioÌ„ of the â—pocâ—phall bookes In 〈◊〉 confesâ—ion 〈…〉 1 de scâ—iptura pag. 10. Aâ—t 6. 〈…〉 Aphoris â— The 1. 2. booke of Esdras Hieronimi pâ—satio in 1. Esdras 〈…〉 Our Brethrens 2. challeng of of the booke of articles for grosse and palpable errours The 17. article of predestination electioÌ„ Election Nothing in this article of Predestination and Election but sounde doctrine The 16 article of sinne after Baptisme Departing from grace How we may depart from grace Diuerse graces of the holy ghost may bee geuen to those that are not elected How the elected may depart or fall â—rom grace The state and coÌ„fidence of the elected Our Brethrens sclaunder of the Bishops for diuers grosse palpable errours The articles with proues The learned disc pag. 136. Bridges Article 6. The articles briefelie set down without their proues testimonies Articles not erronious Satisfying the ignoraunt How any in the conuocation house may be heard How our bretheren ofâ—eâ—ed to be satisfied Satisfiing our Bretheren Confuting the Bishops How â—arâ—e of our bretheâ—en are from those partes wherewith they burden the bishops The state of our brethrens new pastorship The true pastors description Our Brethrens accusation of our Bishops Our Brethrens commendatioÌ„ of themselues Defacing our Bishops Learning Longe studie Our Bishops accusation Sound iudgment The best example Determining in Synods Determining Ecclesiasticall matters The Pastors determining How our bretheren deale in synods with their owne gouernors Our Brethrenâ— wordes returned home Preiuaâ—ceâ—â— the synod Whether our Bishops or these Pastors do more preiudice the synod Our brethrenâ— conclusion The whole ministrie The learned disc pag. 137. Bridges The whole ecclesiasticall ministerie and all the duties and authorities pertayning The diuersities of our Bretherens discâ—â—ries The reâ—ders dutie in these controuersies The treatise of the princes authorithie Our Brethrens entrie into the treatise of the Princes authoritie Our Brethrens dealing with Christian princes in these matters The learned disc pag. 138. Gods soueraigne Empire Bridges The title of the Princeâ— supremacie The vnderstanding of the title of supremacie Our Brethr. exception of Gods soueraigne Empire Gods Empire entire Gods empire kept whole by the Princes supremacie Our Brethr. graunt of the Prince to be highest ouer the persons The Eccl. Gouernors How farre our Brethr. graunt the Princes supremacie ouer their Eccl. gouernors Supremacy ouer all persons Our Brethr. reseruation of the Princes supremacie in the matters The learned disc pa. 138. 139 Bridges The Clergies temporalties The Christian Princes supremacie farre different from the Popes The blasphemous chalenge of the Pope 〈…〉 and these Tetrarkes yoake The Clergies holding their temporalties of the Prince Our Brethr. gouernors incroching on the Prince Euery prince ought to cast off the yoake of the Popes and of these new tetrarks subiection The learned disc pa. 139. 140 The Princes supremacie in Eccl matters Bridges The Princes authoritie for Eccl. matters Our Brethr. speeches against Princes dealing in eccl matters How our Brethren incâ—rre the lâ—ke dealing that they repâ—chende in the Pope for nâ—iâ—sing Princes and the Clâ—â—gie The Pastors supremacie in Eccl. matters Our Brethr. owne sayings rightly returned on themselues These Gouernors Pastors not in Script