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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A80418	A coole conference between the Scottish commissioners cleared reformation, and the Holland ministers apologeticall narration, brought together by a well-willer to both.		1644 (1644)	Wing C6045; Thomason E35_15; ESTC R19126	16,004	18

and interpose his authoritie for strengthning th● sentence of Non communion Apolog. There is not one word in the Apologies discourse of this point to extenuate the power of Synods which being according to the Scriptures they hold them in the highest esteeme that ever the Scripture advanced them to And on the other side they there give us an expresse that besides the said exhortations protestations and Non communion that they professe themselves ever to submit and also to be most willing to have recourse to the civill Magistrate interposing a power of another nature upon his particular cognizance and examination of such causes Reformat pag. 21. 22. To the said objection we answer 1 for there are 5 answers by way of direct confutation that this objection supposeth a case which hath not been found in the Church of Scotland for the space of eightie yeers and beleeve was never heard of in any of the Reformed Churches except those of the Separation the pronouncing of Non communion or Excommunication against a whole Church Our Excommunication hath been executed but seldome against particular members never against a whole Church and we think never shall be and therefore this imaginarie fear of that which never falleth out is not considerable rules are made for ordinarie and usuall cases Apolog. Who that have seriously read and weighed the Apologie and therein their disclaiming of the Separation properly so called their owning the Churches of Scotland and many in England for true Churches their just account of their practise in Holland and their proceedings towards the Church mistaking would after all this call the Apologizers Churches Churches of the Separation unlesse withall they exprest they meant Separation from the Prelates wayes as Scotland and England now do But what ever true Churches be named we see no reason though others beleeve quod factum non est nec fieri potest that which never hath been never shall be but that they may be incident and liable to fall into that case of having to do with a whole particular Church erring especially till those swarmes of Anabaptists Antinomians c. which have been so oft intimated and sounded in our eares be allayd You brethren your selves suppose more and therefore you may suppose the lesse For in your second answer to this objection as you call it you suppose that two or more Churches may mutually protest and pronounce the sentence of non communi●● one against another In which case say you pronouncing of non com●●●ion would prove rather a meane of division then of union and there wou●d be no remedy where the censure is mutuall to compose this difference unlesse there be a common Presbytery or Synod made up of the whole To which we answer that this case hath befallen Provinces and National prelaticall Churches in matter of Excommunication too each of them having a severall Pope in them have excommunicated one another And we see not that antidote in one of the wayes you mention namely a Classicall Provinciall Presbytery but that one provinciall Presbytery may protest against and excommunicate the other For the other way for you propound two and we are willing to take the best namely a Nationall Synod gathered and guided according to the Scriptures we willingly embrace And they that will not take the judgement of such a Synod having no Scripture to alledge justly against their resolutions let them fall into the hands of the Magistrate the Preserver of the publick peace This same reply serves to your third and fourth answer We need adde but a word in reply to your fifth answer wherein you demand by what probability it can be made to appear to any rationall man and indifferent mind that no authoritie shall be as valid as authoritie against the obstinate that Via admonitionis requisitionis is equall with Via citationis publicae authoritatis To which we answer that if it be stated that that is authoritie which is Scripture authoritie and not else and that to be most valid that convinceth and conquers actus elicitos the mind rather then that which doth onely manacle and constraine actus imperat●s the outward carriage the demand is soon answered Is the way of admonition protestation and non communion no authoritie Is that no authoritie that tels us we must give no offence Better a milstone were hanged about ones neck and he cast into the Sea then to offend a weaker brother That we were better not eat flesh then to offend c. Or is it no authoritie when a whole Church after fasting and prayer and clear disputation shall tell the obstinate erring that upon those grounds they will withdraw from them as from Heathens and Publicans The truth is that the prelaticall men have made much use of this your case alledged to plead for Bishops as most necessarie to keep Churches in union But Gods authoritie held forth to us in the judgements of Nationall Synods according to the Word will prove more effectuall then any humane instituted way whatsoever to unite Churches Reformat pag. 24. The other objection is that by this authoritie and order of government one Church hath power over another which is contrarie to that libertie and equalitie Christ hath endewed his Churches with and is no other but a n●w prelaticall dominion set over the Churches of Christ To this say you we answer 1 That we are far from imposing any such c●ll●terall power The power which we maintain is aggregative of the Offi●ers of many Congregations over the particular members in which as in the naturall and politick body one member is not subject to another but is to the whole 2 It is say you a miserable mistake to compare Presbyteries and Prelates together For the Courts of Prelates are altogether f●rrain and extrinsecall in the Congregations over which they rule But the power of Presbyteries is intrinsecall and naturall they being constitute of the Pastors and Elders of the particular Congregations ●ver which they are set So that another without themselves doth not bear rule over them but all of them by common consent do rule over every one which is no more then ●●r a memb●●●f a particular Congregation to be ruled by his own particular Eld●●ship F●r they dis●ern no sentence of excommunication of any member without the knowledge and consent of the particular Congregation that is particularly concerned therein Apolog. You say you impose n●t a collaterall power Sure your laws do impose that one congregation shall be subject to the Elders suppose of twenty congregations And the authority of 19 of them is as ●●llaterall The congregations every one chose their own officers to rule over themselves in the Lord. But we heare not you say that they chose their Officers to rule over themselves and others though we hear you say that the Officers themselves are readie enough to consent so to rule which is as extrinsecall as Episcopacie if Episcopacie be as intrinsecall as Presbyterie For are not Bishops chosen by the people at their instalment where customarily people are allowed to make any just exception and hath in part been practised in England though with little successe in their domineering times Just as anciently as Hieronimus tels us Vnus eligebatur qui caeteris preponoretur c. To av●id schisme one of the class●●all Presbytery was chosen to be as Chai●-man over them all in their Consistorie who from being so annually at last became so for his life time and so hence was born Episcopacy Besides we know that the Bishop and his Chaplains Chancellour Archdeacon Register c. were parishioners within their own Diocesse if not Elders or Officers in their severall congregations And people formerly have been as willing they should reigne as ever any people were in your Kingdom to have the Presbyterie over them And the Bishops on the other side did as cunningly comply with the Congregations they grounding their Court proceedings upon the Church-wardens or Parish Elders presentments upon the peoples complaints and testimony and did not passe an Excommunication without the subscription of the hand of a Minister or two of that Archdeaconrie or Countie-Presbyterie and last of all the Excommunication was not pronounced without the consent of the Minister of the particular Congregation So that it is clear it is not peoples consent onely but if according to the Word that makes a government lawfull God hath chalked out to us patterns of people chusing Officers for the congregation And congregations chusing men for Synods or Councels but not as we conceive of chusing men to make a middle classicall Presbyterie What ever plausible shews of reason may seem to commend a way yet onely Gods way shall have the blessing of God upon it And if it cannot be resolved on all hands as yet clearly which is it let that your golden speech be written upon all your actions That th●se that are m●st averse to ☜ Reform p. 26. Presbytery if they allow no materiall difference in doctrine worship or practise might inj●y their peace and all comforts of their Ministery and profession under it without controlment of that authoritative power which they so much apprehend We have been of late made to fear the contrary by the reports of some not of meanest rank of your own Nation but now we desire rather to hope upon your words here given under your own hands then fear by reason of theirs Trusting also that as you were kindly invited to our Assembly so you will be as helpfull to our poore Churches as your Armies by God● blessing are like to be the Common-wealth according as both Nations have vowed to indeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England and Ireland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government according to the Word of God 〈◊〉 p. 26. We crave leave to conclude with your own words hoping we may as confidently speak them as you did namely That so much for the present have we said not for confutation but meerly for justifying our own and other reformed Churches against such mis-representings and mistakings as in matters of Religion are too frequent in this place a● this time c. FINIS

and practise which in effect you professe pag. 15. saying that the Church of Scotland may admit of further reformation Therefore it is supposed that for the present you onely practise some things of reformation and that for future when you have more light and power you will advance from your present practise to a further Reformat pag. 6. They did honour Luther and Calvin c. who had an heart or band c. in the blessed work of Reformation c. But for this to call us Calvinians and the reformed Churches Calvinian reformed Churches is to disgrace the true Churches of Christ and to symbolize with the Papists who call themselves the Catholick Church c. The Separation may be well allowed to be called Brownists Apologet. Ah brethren from what spirit comes all this The whole designe of framing a confutation of a plain simple modest single hearted narration relished bitter upon multitudes of godly and judicious palates But here we have met if we mistake not the drug with the Coloquintida or if it be intended for a better Recipe it is scalding hot if our taste fails us not Can the Apologie possibly be conceived in the word Calvinian to intend the least grain of disgrace to any Is it not the terme used in all the true Christian Churches for distinctions sake from the more corrupt Lutheran Is it not in opposition to them more corrupt a terme of honour Was it not used of purpose to decline the word Presbiterian that lesse offence might be taken whiles the termes now in controversie were waved Doth not the Apologie deeply professe that multitudes of Churches in England were true Churches and yet for honour of you cals the Churches of Scotland more reformed But you object that this is to symbolize with the Papist who call themselves the Catholick Church we take your objection to be our full answer As sure as the Papists do not intend to disgrace themselves in calling themselves Catholicks so sure is it beleeved that the Apologists who are Calvinians in Doctrine at least if not more did not intend to disgrace themselves and the brethren holding the same doctrine and truth with the terme Clavinian Yet as if in revenge you ding Apol. p. 5. the words Separation and Brownists against the Apologists who had so clearly renounced that rigid opinion and way in their Apologie As if you had forgotten or did intend to mis-apply what you had said but the next line afore quoted out of Hierom. viz. If any where we find men professing Christianity called by the particular names of men know them to be the synagogue of Antichrist and not the Church of Christ Oh unhappie conjunction oh heavy application oh coal-black termes Quod ego Sed motos praestat componere fluctus Were it not for patience nay that would hardly do it were it not for reverence of you and your Nation an home answer would be shaped to such a mis-shapen misprision But to love is to live The Kingdom is on fire we need not hold coals to one another Peace be upon the sons of peace But let not that imputation fall upon us to set our houses on fire to rost our own egges Reformat pag. 10. Nothing was farrer from their thoughts and intentions then to frame in their own forge a lesbian rule answerable to any particular form of civill policy or compliable with State ends Apolog. Whether these words in the Apologie pag. 3. for you tread upon the heels of the Apologie step after step We had no n●w Common-wealths to reare to frame Church government unto do provoke to any such answer let all indifferent men judge For who doth not know that you had no new Common-wealths to reare This might farre easier been understood of New England and yet without surmise of any blame laid upon them who had the Kings Patent for what they did in policy as Gods Word for Church government which they have followed close with a great deal of judgement Reformat pag. 11. Nor do we know any reason why education in s●und d●ctrine and true worship should be accounted a matter of thankesgiving to God and yet should glory in this that we are not by education ingaged i● any one form of Discipline and Church government but left to our selves to be moulded by our own private thoughts Apolog. There is no such doxologie in the Apologie as to thank God for their disengagednesse from or non education in true reformed Churches They expresse their sorrow that the defilement of the Churches of England caused their exilement o●t of the Churches of England Their naked words are onely these We were not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the Apol. p. 4. reformed Churches And for your intimated charge of being left to themselves to be m●ulded by their own private thoughts touching Church government their own words do most transparently clear them W● were not engaged say they by education c. to other of the reformed Apol. p. 4. Churches yet we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in writings and practise We had the advantage of all that light which the c●●flicts of our Divines the good old No conformists had struck forth in their times and the d●●ughts of Discipline which they had drawn We had likewise the fatall miscarriages and shipwracks of the Separation whom ye call Brownists as land-marks to forewarne us of those rocks and 〈◊〉 they ran upon and t● enquire into the principles that might be the c●●ses ●f their divisions Last of all we had the recent and later examples of the wayes and practises and those improved to a better edition and greater re●●●ement c. of those multi●udes of godly men of our own Nati●● 〈◊〉 to the number of mother Nation and among them some as holy and judi●i●us Divi●es as this Kingdom hath bred All which we looked upon nakedly according to the Word of God Thus the Apologie Out of which words the venemous spider of envy cannot much lesse you brethren that are men of a better spirit extract and draw justly this conclusion That the Apologists intended to mould a government in and by their own private thoughts They were not so left to themselves by the oppositions of the times but that they carried with them the golden measuring reed of the Word of God and did with all the judgement and divine assistance they had measure and square every inch as they built Nor doth it yet appear to some that wishly look after these things in what materiall things their buildings differ from others unlesse about the generall and common roofe whether it shall be the monstrous Arches of Episcopacy or the cemented vault of a classicall Presbytery or of Jerusalem work of an Apostolicall Councell And this maine question is now among them Quos penes arbitrium est vis norma loquendi Reformat pag. 11. The Churches planted by the Apostles if not at