State-ends and politicall interests namely â—…at when some great persons Lords and others should be forced through the badnesse of the times as was expected and feared to seek for shelter in Providence and Hispaniâ—…la you might be there ready to remoove with them and be taken along into those Countreyes where you hoped to set up new Churches and subdue those Countreyes and people which should come over into your mould Or if otherwise things in England should come to have a great turne as they had by this Parliament then also by being in Holland rather then New-England you were nigh hand and your estates more at command quickly to returne to England having this Kingdome in your eye hoping you might either subdue England into the way of your Church-goverâ—…ent or else gaine a great party to you 〈◊〉 the Kingdome which we see is unhappily fallen out And 〈◊〉 all the State-ends and interests to come which you might loâ—…ke upon in your remooving to Holland there were worldly râ—…spects and interests for the present to make you goe in the Churâ—…-way as I have before observed And to all these whereas yoâ—… make the having no new-Common-wealths no Kingdomes to eye to frame Church-government unto as the ground of falling upon the right way Let it be considered by you and the Reader that the framing of a Church-government according to the conjunction of a few godly persons either in a Plantation or as strangers in a Common-wealth and not considering of a Church-government for Nations and Kingdomes that when Kingdomes and Nations doe receive the faith and the Magistrates are Christians and Orthodox that there must be a Church-government as for a Nation and Kingdome is that very thing that deceives you there being alia ratio urbis ac orbis and so a great difference of governing a family two or three or of a Towne and of governing a Nation and Kingdome But as for that Parenthesis you make before you end this Section That your Governement will bâ—… coexistent with the peace of any forme of Civill Governmeâ—… on earth out of the great care you have least your Church-gâ—…nment should suffer in the thoughts of many that it is not consistent with the peace of Civill-government 't is so farre from truth that your Government and Church-way cannot stand with the peace of any forme of Civill government no not with Democraticall government much lesse Aristocraticall or Monarchicall but should it be but tolerated much more established as the government in a Kingdome and Nation we should quickly find the contrary with a witnesse In this Intervall of Church-government we feele without a formall toleration of it woefull effects opposite to the peace and good of civill government And I desire to know from you how you will proove it and we shall be assured of it for we dare not take your bare word seeing that never yet any Kingdome or Nation entertained your Church-way and government there being yet no experiment of it which of the Presbyteriall goverment hath been in Kingdomes and Common-wealths this fourescore yeares And I must tell you that in New-England which yet was farre from being a Kingdome and Nation when they began to multiply and encrease this government had like to have ruined them both in Church and Common-wealth and had they not enterposed and since doe daily the power of the Magistrate and many suitable principles to the Presbyteriall way they had been ruined before this and what yet will be the issue unlesse they fall off more and more from their Independency a little time will shew and there are Letters from thence complaining of the confusions of necessity depending on that government We were not engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches And although we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in their writings and practisâ—… yet we could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and Government their intentions being most spent as also of our first Reformers in England upon the Reformation in Doctrine in which they had a most happy hand And 〈◊〉 had with many others observed that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace yet the practicall part the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians had not beeâ—… advanced and held forth among them as in this our Island as themselves have generally acknowledged We had the advantage of all that light which the conflicts of our own Divines the good old Non-conformists had struck forth in their times And the draughts of Discipline which they had drawn which we found not in all things the very same with the practises of the Reformed Churches And â—…hat they had written came much more commended to us not only because they were our own but because sealed with their manifold and bitter sufferings We had likewise the fatâ—…ll miscarriages and ship-wracks of the Separation whom ye call Brownists as Land-marks to forewarne us of thâ—…se rocks and shelves they ran upon which also did put us upon an inquirie into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions Last of all We had the recent and later example of the wayes and practises and those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement by all the fore-mentioned helps of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation and among them some as holy and judicioâ—… Divines as this Kingdome hath bred whose sincerity in theâ—… way hath been testified before all the world and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking but that of our father Abraham out of his own Countrey and his sâ—…ed after him a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance and and that by sea into a wildernesse meerely to worship God more purely whither to allure them there could be no other invitement And yet we still stood as vnengaged spectators free to examine and consider what truth is to be found in and amongst all these all which we looke upon as Reformed Churches and this nakedly according to the word We resolved not to take up our Religion by or from any party and yet to approve and hold fast whatsoever is good in any though never so much differing from us yea orposite unto us It may be if you had been engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches that you had seen the order and peace in some of the Reformed Churches and had you conversed with them before you drunke in these opinions you had never been transported with them in opposition to so many most worthy Churches but to what end is this brought in with all those particulars newly mentioned in the foregoing page We had we had with that passage in the close of the last Section We had nothing else to doe but simply and singly to consider how to
books of others or in counselling and consenting to the printing of them especially some books from out of New-England and particularly of Mr Cottons 3. Neither I nor many other Ministers are not satisfied of the truth of those words That you have not acted for your selves and way which words as here brought in by you must be understood of acting as distinct from preaching and printing that is as you have not published your opinions by preaching so you have not by other wayes and meanes acted for your selves or way as in making friends or in mooving any Parliament men or in consulting together what to doe about your way no alas good men you have kept your houses close and followed your studies hard and seldome gone to Westminster but have left the businesse of Independencie and the Church-way to God wholly leaving him to take care of his own way and cause Brethren how dare you write thus if you have not acted for your selves and way since your returnes into England and improoved your time well too most who know you are much deceived in you and strangely mistaken And suffer me to deale plainely with you I am perswaded that setting aside the Jesuites acting for themselves and way you Five have acted for your selves and way both by your selves and by your instruments both upon the stage and behind the curtaine considering circumstances and laying all things together more then any five men have done in so short a time this 60 yeares and if it be not so whence have come all the swarmes and troopes of Independents in Ministery Armies City Countrey Gentry and amongst the common people of all sorts men women servants children have not you five had the greatest influence to cause this who have wrought so many Ministers Gentlemen and people to your way can it be in Reason thought all this is come about without your acting for your selves and way is the peoples golden Calfe of Independencie and Democracie come out of it selfe without Aarons making it And whether you five have not acted for your selves way since this Parliament I desire you to answer these questions and then according to the truth of those questions let your consciences judge of the truth of these words 1. Whether came not you over into England and left your Churches in Holland with their leave or rather being sent as Messengers to negotiate for your way and for a Toleration of some Churches to enjoy Independent government that is a full entire compleate power within your selves 2. When you were come over did you not in the first yeare of the Parliaments sitting consult together and debate about a Petition and was there not one drawne to be presented to the House of Commons for a Toleration of some Congregations to enjoy a Congregationall government 3. Have you not beene all along from your first comming over into England to the writing of this present Apologie intent and watchfull upon every thing in agitation or about to passe in matters of Religion that might make though but remotely for Presbyteriall government and might though but by a remote consequence and at a distance touch upon or prejudice your Church way As for instance about the time of passing a Bill in the House of Commons against Episcopacy and of consultation and debate what should be in the interim till another Government could be setled were not you zealous and active against that advice and counsell of a certaine number of grave Ministers in each County to be substituted for the time out of your feare of having but a shadow of Presbyterian governement though but pro tempore and how much you worked in that with some of place and what the issue of that was you may remember So upon thoughts and consultations since this warre of entring into a Covenant and some Ministers being advised with whether did not some of you stand for a clause to be inserted in the Covenant for liberty to tender consciences and for want of such a clause that being opposed by some how long it was layed aside c. I desire you to remember Againe about the beginning of the Assembly in the review and examination of of some of the Articles of Religion and in the propounding but some orders to have been agreed on about the way of managing the Disputes and Debates in the Assembly how tender have you been of any thing tending but to Presbytery and that might though but indirectly reflect upon any of your Principles 4. Have not some of you though may be not all acted for your selves and way by constant Church meetings on the Lords day in private houses preaching the word and administring the Sacraments even in the times of the publike Assemblies where besides your own Church members have resorted to your meetings many other persons some members of Churches in New-England and others belonging to the Church of England and whereas Mr Simpson was a Minister of a Church at Rotterdam which Church is still there hath not Mr Simpson since his returne well acted for himselfe and his way in getting such a rich and numerous Church consisting of so many Gentlemen and Gentlewomen rich Citizens rich Virgins c. and hath not Mr Goodwin acted for himself and way and at least in the least attempted to encrease a party when besides those of his Church at Arnheim that came over from thence there are others here in London have gone to his Church meetings and there are some if not actually members the ceremony may be being forborne that it may be said he hath added none to his Church yet are Competentes Candidati Probationers members in fieri with their faces to Zion and reputed members actually by them of nearest Relations and Co-habitations as I am credibly enformed but must name none to prevent differences in neere Relations 5. Have not some of you if not all of you acted for your selves and way in actually speaking and moving some Parliament men to stand for you and for a Toleration of your Church way and have you not been answered shew us your grounds let us know what you hold and what you would have and then you shall see that shall be done which is sitting and out of zeale of acting for your selves and way have not some of you suggested in private to Parliament men the prejudice of their Parliamentary power if they should admit of the Government of the Church of Scotland pleading also for a necessity of a Toleration and in particular I aske Mr Nye if he remember no such discourses and that at Hull too 6. Whether have not some of you if not all out of acting for your selves and way hindred all that â—…lay in you the sending for our brethren of Scotland to come to our help and whether have not some of you much pleaded against sending for them in and objected as the Malignants doe of the danger of their comming in c and whether
of the piety wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one c. which testimony given by you to this Assembly and that Character given by you of the people and the Professours of this Kingdome in page 24. and 28. are worthy to be observed and are of great use in these times when the Assembly and their proceedings are so much traduced and spoken against by your followers and Churches and let me make this use of it to the people and sadly put this question to their Consciences Whether is more probable that an Assembly so judicious of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the pietie wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one going in Gods way as you say page 28. making it their worke and businesse to find out the Government and the truth about the order of the Church visible and giving freedome of debates to men of different mindes and apprehensions seeking God publiquely and privately daily with so many prayers put up for them in all Churches at home and abroad beyond the Seas should find out the truth or Mr Lockyer Mr Batchelor Mr Carter with a company of weake ignorant men and women youths and maids apt to be seduced and ready to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way As to those words We would much rather have chosen to have been venting them to the multitude apt to be seduced I answer so you did much rather chuse to vent your opinions and principles both in publique and private to the multitude apt to be seduced according to the opportunities you had these three yeares then to communicate them to your godly brethren of the Ministerie as I have before fully shewed For this passage of yours But in a conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and reforming the Churches of Christ wee have adventured our selves upon this way of God wisely assumed by the prudence of the State whether this be so or no that you have had a conscientious regard to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truth and reforming the Churches of Christ let my last answer and what is before proved witnesse and if out of a conscientious regard to the orderly c. you adventured to be members of the Assembly and upon this way by an Assembly of searching out truths why did you not before the Assembly forbeare the disorderly and unpeaceable way of venting your selves to the multitude and of gathering Churches c. as also since the Assembly the disorderly and unpeaceable way of searching out truths in writing this Apologie in preaching some Sermons with some other practises which were no orderly nor peaceable wayes of searching out truths especially the Assembly sitting But them beleeve you that will I judge and that upon grounds and hints already given that other things made you adventure to be of the Assembly and to come thither constantly rather then the conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and I cannot let passe without some animadversions the phrase used by you here of your being members of the Assembly We have adventured our selves a very significant and true expression for I beleeve you accounted this Assembly a great Adventure for your Church-way and such a bottome as you would not have put it in at least not so soon if all the wayes you could have devised under heaven would have hindred it but it happened to you according to the Proverbe Nothing venture nothing have for supposing there must be an Assembly you might perhaps by being members of it doe your selves and way some good but by declining and refusing it you had been certainly lost But brethren what is the reason that in this Section wherein you give so full a testimonie to the Assembly and of your great adventuring to be members of it that you annex in the close these words following And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages both of number abilities of learning Authoritie the streame of publique interest trusting God both with our selves and his own truth c. Whether does not this somewhat reflect upon the Assembly as if there were a great hazard that things would be carried there by number abilities of learning Authority the streame of publique interest rather then by truth for if points were not likely to be carried so by plurality of Votes c. but by the clearest proofes from Scripture then these were no disadvantages to you but all the advantage would lie on that side whether many or few whether greater Scholars or lesse that could bring the strongest Scripture grounds and I must tell you that in such an Assembly as you confesse this is and is well known to be both for the persons and ends of its calling that great liberty of speech and debate with that solemne Protestation taken by every member at first sitting there a man need not account those things specified by you for any disadvantages for any two or three men nay one of a different judgement in Doctrine or discipline from that Assembly having truth on his side and but so much learning as to manage and make out his evidences though a man of no authority might easily cause the consciences of most there to owne and fall downe before that truth and to change their mindes yea and to blesse God for the light and imbrace the person or persons that brought it much lesse need you whose number is sufficient about ten besides some who are halfe Independents having parts and abilities enough and Authority to manage your arguments and even to command free and long audience complaine of these things for disadvantages but I am jealous this passage is here inserted and brought in to possesse the peoples minds fearing by this time this Apologie was set out things might not goe on your side and to give them something to confirme them in your way to teach them what to say namely though you had the truth and brought such strong arguments as were not answered yet you could not be heard but matters were carried against you by pieces the greater number of the Assembly by far being of another judgement as also by the streame of publike interest Authority c. And many of the people of the Church way speake thus already that the Assembly cannot answer your arguments but beare you downe with numbers the Parliament should have done well to have chosen as many of your way as on the other side and then there would have been a faire and even triall but I will examine all your disadvantages apart and give you and the Reader a particular account of them First For Number though you have not so many of your judgement in the Assembly yet you have a competent number to plead your cause and to be the mouth for all of your way to speake
and had not the truth constrained me my call to this worke beene strong and the cause of God and Reformation much in my eye I had out of my personall love and respect to some of the Apologists given over the worke I can and am ready to doe them any service of love even the meanest to wash their feet and should much rejoyce in their happy union and growing into one body with us in this Reformation And let not this Answer for the truth and plainnesse of it be branded for a bitter rayling malitious Answer but let this also be added to the former premises that the Apologists needed such an Answer as should not flatter nor extoll them but be free and plaine for the truth is the Apologists have been too much flattered both in their persons and Church-way and they are undone for want of being dealt with plainely and freely a candle hath been too much held to them and I hope this Answer may doe much good even to abate their swellings and confidence and if many of the Ministers would deale more plainely with them it would be better both for them and us I remember a passage of Calvin in an Epistle of his to Melancthon concerning Luther which may be applied to the Ministers in reference to the Apologists how that if there were that mind in all of us which ought to be some remedy might be found And certainly we transmit an unworthy example to posterity whilst we cast away all liberty rather then we will offend one man and will not his vehemencie the more rise and grow whilst all beare with him and suffer all things c. 4. Answ. The writing of Books against the errors and opinions though of good men is not speaking against good men or opposing godlinesse when the Apologists in their Apologie writ against Authoritative Presbyteriall Government and in page 〈◊〉 and 24 of theiâ—… Apologie doe professedly declare they judge the Calvinian Reformed Churches to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves and that the truth lyes in the â—…ddle way betwixt Authoritative Presbyteriall government c. did they speake against the Saints and all the godly Ministers in those Churches when Paul withstood Peter to the face because he was to be blamed for his withdrawing and separating did Paul speake against the Apostles of Christ or speake evill of the Saints no more doe I in writing this Booke Good Reader Not to deâ—…ine thee longer from enâ—…ing into the house it selfe lay all things together consider wisely of persons and things and have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ the Lord of glory with respect of persons Accept and take in good part what is now brought to thy hand as intended for thy spirituall good for the recovering or preserving thee from errors on the right hand and let love cover any mistakes or faults thou maist meet with in it I am but one against five as also in so many sheets there may well be Errata and all things not so strong in much writing a mans pen may slip and mistake and with long waking a watchfull man may winke now and then consider also this Answer hath been made in the midst of much preaching and many other businesses having been destitute also of some advantages and helps which at another time I might have had Thy good acceptance of it thy profiting by it and thy earnest prayers to God for me will encourage me to goe on in further writing to which I have so deeply engaged my selfe in this Book and God sparing me life and health I have taken up a fixed resolution never to give over writing till this Church be setled and these great schismes amongst us healed But if it should so happen that this Antapologia should profit nothing at all many Christians whom I intend it most unto yet I question not but it will profit some even as Augustine in his Epistle to Vincentius writes even them who have a care to reade it with the feare of God and without respect of persons Now the God of truth and peace reveale abundance of truth and peace and give us truth and peace always by all meanes He fulfill that promise in Ieremie to his people in this Kingdome to give them one heart and one way to feare him for the good of them and their children after them And so commending thee deare Christian to God and the word of his grace and this work of mine to his blessing I conclude this Epistle as Beza doth his to Duditius Farewell The Lord keep thee and all thine from all evill and especially from nooneday Devils which walke about in this place and in these times that is from the errors of Anabaptisme Brownisme Antinomianisme Toleration of Sects and schismes under pretence of libertie of conscience Amen Yours in Christ Tho. Edwards Errata Page 1. Marg for Mat. 1. reade Mat. 1â—… p. 12. l 6. adde and. p. 14. l. 22. for had r. have p. 36. l. â—…0 Tor wa r. is p. 41. l 15. for nor r. not p. 42. l. 29. for Pareusâ—… r. Pareushesessâ—… p. 43. l. 1â—… for satisfie r. satisfied p. 44 l. 24. for conceive r. conceived p. 46. l. 19. at the full point 6. following linâ—… though they be printed of the same character which the words of the Letter are yet they be the words of the Author of this Answer p. 47. l. 6. for remaine t remâ—…e p. 53. l. 14. adde after relâ—… short p. 57. l. 28. but must be transposed after there and dele the p. 64. l. â—…1 r. for which though comming it be which committed though it be p. 6â—… l. 15. 〈◊〉 censures adde the. p. 85. l. 15. for libâ—…tles r. Libertines p. 8â—… l. 30. for marks r. rules p. 94. l. 26. after others adde to all the Ordinances p. 101. l. 17. r. for leave to follow leave follovving the. p. 107. l. 9. r. for conceiving receiving p 124. l. 〈◊〉 for to r. of l 9. for reall r. evill p. 134. l. 16. for Offices upon mistaken partialitiâ—… r. offences upon mistakes and partialitie p. 1â—…5 l. 2. r for iudge it iudged p. 153. l. â—…4 for each r. the p. 154. l. 12. addd after be as p. 156. l. 2. at thus must be a full point and all the semicircles in this page must be put out p. 217. l. â—…7 for state parsâ—…te r. state part p. 28â—… l. 28 for pleasâ—… r. partakerâ—… p. 305. for sâ—… r. 〈◊〉 p. â—…71 l. 〈◊〉 adde for before 〈◊〉 full p. 285. l. 27. for diametrally r. diametrically p. 294. l. 2. for witnesses r witnessed p. 295. l. 〈◊〉 â—…adde after according to p. 2â—…6 l. 13. for should r. could p. 297. l. 36. for beate r. breake ANTAPOLOGIA OR A full Answer to a Booke Entituled An Apologeticall Narration c. AS the Assertors of truth through the subtilty and malice of Satan and his instruments causing prejudices and mistakes in the minds
to your practises your Churches are many yeares without them that a man cannot tell when he hath a reall testimony what you hold or how long you have held it And as for that other reall testimony as you had occasion offering to receive some of ours whom ye knew godly that came to visit you when you were in exile upon that relation fellowship and com-membership they held in their Parish-churches in England 1. 'T is no reall testimony because you oâ—…red it but doe not say you performed it 2. If you had actually performed it it is no such reall testimony of the truth of our Churches and ministery but of your own rather into the communion whereof they were received 3. Still their admission was founded upon that distinction of Implicit Churches as appeares by your following words For you would admit them upon such termes as you would gaine a principle of your own by them get more by it then communion with you was worth namely that such who were known to be godly might not come to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper unlesse they were members of some particular Congregation and so in their partaking with you they must yeeld that grand Brownisticall principle the foundation of other errors among the Separatists namely that Sacraments belong not to visible believers but as they are members of some particular Congregation As also you put them upon a practice and order never required by example or precept in the Scriptures And let me intreat you in your reply you give to this answer to give me a Scripture to prove that all men who come to the Lords Supper must professe their member-ship and their retaining to such a particular Congregation I professe my selfe of another judgement and cast the glove to any of you five or to you all That it is lawfull for the Ministers of Christ to receive such whom they know to be godly to the Lords Supper though they be not members of a particular Church and to receive those who are members without any professing themselves to be so Suppose some godly Merchants or Marriners who all their dayes travell and never stay long in any one place yet in all places where they come desire to joyne in the ordinances ought not such to be received The standing rule of comming to the Lords Supper will be found to be faith and godlinesse shown forth rather then the formality of membership But deale ingeniously doe you tell us here all that you required of the godly that came to visit you or doe you tell us only a part which question I the rather propound because as you doe relate in other parts of this Narration as in the eighth page so I find Mr Batchelour one of you writing from Rotterdam of your Churches that they will not keepe back the Sacrament from any of the godly of such Churches in England as Mr Goodwins and Mr Calamyes are alwayes provided that their own Pastours doe consent unto it Now the godly who are gone into Holland and especially to New-England not finding any such word in Scripture of bringing a ticket from their Ministers and so comming into those Countreyes without it may be long kept from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper till they either goe into England and fetch it or till they send for it over and have a returne back of the consent of their own Pastors which may be was the reason that though you offered to receive into the Communion of the Lords Supper some godly that came to visit you in your exile yet for want of bringing their Pastors consent unto it returned into England without partaking in the Lords Supper with you Which by the way will be a good warning for all that henceforth goe over into Holland or New-England to carry their Ministers consents over with them least otherwise they be not admitted to the Lords Supper and that you doe not deale plainely with us in this relation of admitting the godly in the Parish Churches of England into the Communion of the Lords Supper with you but there is some reservation and evasion I much doubt because the known godly in the Parish-church of Coleman-street which amongst Parish-churches is one of your true Churches in England cannot be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper by vertue of their relation of membership they hold in the Parish-church never since their Pastor fell into your Church-way As for your publike and avowed declarations to this purpose which many hundreds can witnesse I never heard of any of them in any publike meetings though I have been in many nor in any Sermons you have preacht though I have heard of many things you preacht which you are like to heare of in this Answer But if I may speake what I have heard there hath been a Narrative promised from you of what you hold which many Ministers also can witnesse but was never performed by you till this day As to that in the close of this Section that some of your brethren in their printed books doe candidly testifie for you It is but one of them not some unlesse you take in Mr Herles Imprimatur to your Apologie who I doubt not before this time by what he hath heard from some of his bretheren of the Assembly and seen in that book intituled Reformation of Church-government in Scotland with the contents of the Letters from some Churches beyond the seas besides the light this Answer will give will see easily how by your courting of him he was surprized And it is no wonder that Mr Herle Mr Channell with some other men of worth having lived somewhat remote and having not been much conversant with you and your distinctions might be at first mistaken with such good words and solemne professions And as we alwayes held this respect unto our own Churches in this Kingdome so we received and were entertained with the like from those reformed Churches abroad among whom we were cast to live wee both mutually gave and received the right hand of fellowship which they on their parts abundantly manifested by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects which they tollerate but not owne and all the assemblies of them which yet now we are here some would needs ranke us with granting to some of us their own Churches or publike places for worship to assemble in where themselves met for the worship of God at differing houres the same day As likewise the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto our meetings Which we mention because it is amongst them made the great signall of difference between their own allowed Churches and all other assemblies unto whom it is strictly prohibited and forbidden as Guiciardine hath long since observed And others of us found such acceptance with them that in testimony thereof they allowed a full and
other men I briefly suggest these following things to you and the Reader 1. That by your owne concession set formes of prayer are not unlawfull because they be set and framed before hand and not conceived suddenly wherein you grant that the publicke prayers in the Assemblies may be premeditated framed and studied before hand as well as Sermons which concession takes off one of the strongest Arguments used against set-formes of prayer 2. I answer it is not against the fruites of Christs ascension into Heaven and of giving gifts unto men for the Ministery that they doe not alwayes in all their prayers exercise their own gifts of invention and composall of prayer for so the using of the Lords prayer should be unlawfull at any time for the Ministers which is no prayer framed out of their owne meditations and studie and their owne gifts 3. I answer there is a great dissimilitude in many respects betweene Sermons and prayers so that it will not hold though Sermons ought to be framed alwaies out of our owne gifts that therefore prayers alwayes should be And this I will demonstrate in a Discourse of the lawfulnesse of using set-formes of prayer composed by others 4. It is not against the fruit of Christs ascension nor the gifts given then for Ministers in some instructions and teachings of the people to make use of some thing sometimes in publike either doctrinall or practicall not framed out of their owne gifts but by others As suppose the reading in the Congregation to the people often some confession of faith or some exhortation about maine things of use to them having still the free use of their giftsto preach besides 5. Suppose you five should joyne together out of your owne meditations and studies exercising your owne gifts to frame publicke prayers of maine petitions needfull for the state of all your Churches whether might they be used by you in your publick Assemblies 6. Whether each of you by your selves framing upon meditation and studie a set-forme of prayer may not use that often in your Assemblies without sinne having also your liberty to adde conceived prayers at the same time But to put all out of question about the second instance I judge that set formes of prayer prescribed taken in both senses that is neither made nor framed out of the gifts of the persons who use them nor left at liberty but by publike consent agreed upon to be used are not unlawfull to be practised but the Scriptures give us examples for such prayers as in 2 Chron. 29. 30. Moreover Hezekiah the King and the Princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the Lord with the words of David and of Asaph the Seer and they sang praises with gladnesse and they bowed their heads and worshipped And therefore the use of set formes of prayer framed and composed by others and prescribed having example in Scripture as well as conceived are no additament nor superaddition but the reformed Churches in practising both practise most safely according to Scripture patternes and your Churches using only one sort and not the other leave to follow examples recorded in Scripture and we may more justly cast upon you the taking away from Scripture taking away being a like branded by Scripture as adding But you doe unjustly cast upon the reformed Churches adding to the word the Scriptures holding out examples for both And for the further clearing your mistakes in this great ordinance of publike prayer I shall only adde this all that God hath commanded either in the old Testament or new about publike prayer is that prayers be made in the publike Assemblies and that those prayers be of petitions for their matter and kind lawfull according unto the will of God directed unto God alone in the Name of Christ with humility fervency faith and such like but that God hath required that as oft as Ministers pray they must put up prayers framed by their own meditations and studies out of their own gifts and that the words and phrases must be various and diversified or else their prayers are not lawfull there is never such a sillable to proove it in the Scripture But we have examples of both namely set and conceived and Gods servants used both indifferently and we may use both according as we see occasion and as we find may make most for edification and Gods glory And I desire you in your Reply to this Answer to give any instance to the contrary and I shall thanke you for I seek truth and peace and not victory nor contention And let me mind you whilst you goe about in this instance to cleare your selves of additaments you are in this and other instances guilty of taking away from the Word falling short as in other things practising above what is written besides your different way of practising in some things So likewise for the government and discipline in the Churches however the practise of the reformed Churches is in greater matters to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbytery of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government yet so as in their judgments they allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction to be exercised by the Elders thereof within it selfe Yea and our owne Mr Cartwright holy Baynes and other old Non-conformists place the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church with the consent of the Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed they doe subject them to such Presbyteriall and Provinciall Assemblies as the proper refuge for appeales and for compounding of differences amongst Churches which combination of Churches others of them therefore call Ecclesiae ortae but particular Congregations Ecclesiae primae as wherein firstly the power and priviledge of a Church is to be exercised And withall we could not but imagine that the first Churches planted by the Apostles were ordinarily of no more in one City at first then might make up one entire Congregation ruled by their own Elders that also preached to them for that in every City where they came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations or that the Apostles should stay the setting up of any Churches at all untill they rose to such a numerous multiplication as might make such a Presbyteriall combination we did not imagine We found also those non-conformists that wrote against the Episcopall government in their answer to the arguments used for Episcopall government over many Churches brought from the instances of the multitude of believers at Ierusalem and other places and Cities mentioned in the new Testament to assert that it would not be infallibly proved that any of those we read of in the Acts and elsewhere were yet so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation in those first times We found it also granted by them all
spread and they gained so many of the Magistrates on their side we should have found there would have been no ground for Mr Simpson to write thus As is cleare in the Low-Countries where so many Ministers and people turned Arminians Papists and Socinians In a word till the calling of Synods and the power of Presbyteriall government was shaken and some Arminians by flattery and policie wrought to put by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies and appealed to the Magistrates as Mr Simpson does in this Apologie from the Assembly there was not so great a defection both of Ministers and people unto errors in turning Papists Socinians c. 3. Though Presbyteriall government hath not its free course in the Low-Countries as in France Geneva Scotland besides the Toleration there yet there are infinitely fewer miscarriages in censures divisions errors in the Presbyteriall Churches then in the Independents there having been more contentions miscarriagâ—…s falling into errors in one small Church of the Independent way at Amsterdam and that within lesse then one yeere then in all the Churches in some Provinces I remember perfectly I have read in Mr Pagetts Arrow against Separation a man who lived long in Holland and much versed in the Controversie how he showes that out of a few members in the Brownists Churches more fall to Anabaptisme c. then out of many thousand members of the Presbyteriall Churches amongst the Dutch or out of all the English Reformed Churches there So that notwithstanding this new objection brought against Presbyteriall government if the Parliament should please to settle it and that in the full power and free use of Classes and Synods denying also a Toleration for Independencie unto which all erroneous and discontented spirits upon all occasions would flow and gather instead of opening a wide gate for errors divisions and many other mischiefes they shall lay a sure foundation for truth and peace in these Churches And in the last words of the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland I conclude this last Reason against a Toleration The Church of England which God hath blessed with so much learning and piety by this Reformation and uniformity with other reformed Churches which all of us have solmnely sworne and subscribed to endeavour in our severall places and callings should be a praise in the earth Now did not other occasions call me to take off my hand besides the booke it selfe swelled already to such a number of sheets I would have answered all the reasons brought both for Tolerations in generall and particularly for the Congregationall way as that men are to be perswaded in matters of Religion and not compelled as that the Conscience is to be left free as that the deniall of a Toleration will be a great persecution as that this is the way to make men hypocrites as that Gods people are a willing people c. but reserving this to another season in the close of this Discourse I will propound these following questions to the Apologists 1. Whether the commanding of men by the power of Lawes to doe their duties to doe the things which God requires of them with the using of outward meanes to worke them to it when unwilling be unlawfull for the Magistrate and against Christian libertie yea or no 2. In your moving for a Toleration doe you desire it for you five only with those who are actually and will come in to be members of your Churches or for all the Churches who are of the same way and Communion if for your selves and Churches onely which would be more tolerable a few then a great number and you being persons of more worth then most of the others consider the solemne League and Covenant is against it That we shall without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of schisme and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound Doctrine so that you cannot be tolerated more then others besides if that were granted you being but five Ministers and making up but three or foure Churches the Parliament would be never the neerer in giving satisfaction for what should become of all the rest of the Ministers and Churches in City and Countrey of Mr C. Mr B. Dr H. Mr L. Mr G. Mr W. c. the Parliament would be accounted partiall and further off from giving content then if they granted none at all But if it be said you desire it for all Churches of your constitution I answer expresse so much under your hands and I will then give you an answer 3. Whether would you have a Toleration granted in the generall and indifferently for all consciences sects and opinions or only for some sort of opinions I suppose being wise men you will not expresse your selves for a Toleration in the first sense but in the latter I desire to know of you then what limits and bounds you will set and where the Parliament shall stop and what rules you will give for this as first whether the limitation shall be a Toleration only for all different formes of Church-Government and order so long as they agree in Doctrine with the Church established and are Orthodox but not of doctrine Now if you hold so then the Brownists and the Bishops with those who are for the Hierarchie must be tolerated as well as you many Episcopall men being sounder in doctrine then some of your way and if so then the simple Anabaptists and that sort of simple Anabaptists called Dippers will come in too saying that Baptisme at such an age and baptizing in rivers by dipping are but matters of order and time and what if yet a new forme of Church Government and way of externall order in the Administration of Gods Ordinances be set up by some a way which hath never yet beene practised by any must that be tolerated also consider with your selves whether there may not be a safer allowance of difference in some doctrines and opinions then of different governments as also what you have expressed of the consequence of Church Government and order and then resolve me whether you will have all formes of Church-Government allowed and in my Rejoynder I will apply my selfe particularly to show you the danger of that and how much hazard there is even of the Doctrine from the Discipline and Order if that be not right Or secondly would you have a Toleration in points of Doctrine too namely in lesser differences I desire to know what you will make the rule and measure of those lesser differences whether whatever may stand with saving grace and is not against the fundamentals of Doctrine and civill Government or what else Now if you meane so who shall determine and judge what may stand with saving grace c. every Heretick Socinian c. will plead his opinion may and I aske of you whether many points and practises very bad and pernitious may not stand with saving grace in some men at least for a time what say you to Polygamie that hath stood with saving
to gaine the greater credit and beliefe to the things asserted in my Booke and to remove this opinion from lurking in many other bosomes and in particular to make the charge sit heavier upon the Anatomizer by speaking particularly to the matters of fact concerning him in accepting of his motion and request of proving the reports concerning him by witnesses and before a judicatorie I must therefore answer to the three Propositions of the Anatomizer as they have reference to the Antapologie 1. That many things reported in this Antapologie are misreported 1. Let the Reader observe that the Anatomizer though he play the fore-game and will be before hand in speaking to a Book before it come forth and because truth will hardly overtake aâ—…ye that is set out foure or five dayes before it as himselfe speakes therefore he will be sure to send forth in time even some dayes before reports come out yet the Anatomizer doth not say all things reported are misreported so that though many things may be misreported many things also may be truly reported and in page 4. in the definition he is pleased to give of the Antapologie 't is a Collection of such faults as either ment mistakes and malice or perhaps mens own infirmities have made either beyond the seas or here he denies not the truth of all the reports and faâ—…les but grants them with a perhaps 2. I desire the Reader to consider that for the matters of fact related in the Apologie which in this Answer I speake unto asserting the contrary upon Reasons and grounds laid downe by me I never intended by such an Answer to make a Judiciarie infallible proofe which as 't is not necessary in the way of answering matter of fact so neither can it be by rationall men expected as if without that no sufficient Answer were given to disprove facts but only a rationall probable proofe from Letters and other Manuscripts going under the names of the Apologists and superscribed to their known friends from reports of men of credit and such who have lived amongst them hearing and seeing things and from many circumstances of place time c. by which in reason men may well judge accordingly and for this kind of proofe I beleeve I can make as rationall and conscientious a one to satisfie my selfe and all indifferent persons to judge according to what I write as hath been made these many yeares for since the Apologie came forth I have used a great deale of care diligence and circumspection both by 〈◊〉 to know the truth of things I formerly had been informed of and by inquiting particularly of many persons concerning circumstances and their proofes and questioning with them how they knew such a thing c. as also by forbearing to insert matters related to me upon a single tesâ—…monie and witnesse where there were not other strong circumstances conâ—…ing to make them out And yet for all the care I have used 't is possible that among so many things related by 〈◊〉 there may be some mistakes in the reports of some circumstances in matter of order and time place or number though I know none such and yet the report and fact true A report may be true and yet mistaken in one circumstance which when it comes to scanning may prove more foule in another so that the â—…se stands thus whether the Apologists relating such and such matters oâ—… fact an Answeâ—…er having evidences and testimonies by him of Letters written in their names reports from credible men as godly Ministers and Christians their own friends with other circumstances concurring hath not reason to question the truth of such facts and to answer to them by laying downe his grounds why he judges otherwise and for my Answer to the Apologists if in their Reply they deny any of the matters of fact I speake unto I will in my Rejoynder at the end of it print all their Letters with other Letters of their friends that I have by me and name the parties from whose hands I had them and how I came by them and relate other circumstances which for present I have concealed and then let the Reader judge whether I had not reason to beleeve and Answer as I doe But as for a Judiciarie proofe of all matters of fact in my Antapologie I not seeing those Letters writ and most of my Letters being but copies and many of the facts being done beyond the seas considering also 't is possible the relators may mistake in some things I cannot positively and judicially sware and make out such a kind of proofe 3. For some matters of fact spoken to in this Antapologia I know and am certaine of in my own knowledge and had them from some of the Apologists own mouthes and though they 〈◊〉 have forgotten them I can for a need rubbe up their memories by minding them 〈◊〉 the places times and occasions which they cannot deny I have also some originall Letters by me to prove some things asserted by me in this Answer and for the most materiall things of their preaching and acting for their way besides that the things themselves speake and are notorious I have many eare and eye witnesses both of Ministers and people which I can produce so that if I have reason to beeleeve a report of any thing I see noâ—… nor beare not upon the place as that there was a siege at Yorke and a great victory obtained by the Parliaments Forces neere Yorke c. I have ground to beleeve many of the particulars instanced in by way of Answer to the Apologeticall Narrationâ—… Now finding severall passages in the Apologie in point of fact related with height of considence contrary to my knowledge and to the testimonie of many with a coÌ„currence of other circumstances which I could not doubt of observing other matters of fact brought by the Apologists to take the people with against which though there were not such strong proofs yet in the drawing up my Answer to such pâ—…ticulars whether might not I now upon probable grounds as one sufficient witnesse with the circumstance of place and time c. question these and judge them to be much like the others 4. Particularly for M. Simpson because he hath publikely printed that the Antapologie is a â—…ction of such faults as either mens mistakes and malice or perhaps meâ—… own infirmities have made either beyond the seas or here in which sentence it is to be observed by the way he confuâ—…es all that 's brought by himselfe against the Anatomie or the Antapologie himselfe taking up reports suddenly and beleeving here sayes before he ever saw any one sheete yea or one page of the Antapologie branding a Minister and his Booke for a collection of such faults as either mens mistakes and malice have made by tellinâ—… this not only to a particular Church but to all the Churches in the World as printing doth and because he puts up a reqâ—…est that the Reader will
not beleeve aâ—…y reports of this kind in the Booke that iâ—… comming forth meaning the Antapologie untill the Authors of them will appeare and bring their witnesses to a faire hearing in any lawfull though the strictest â—…licatorie c. and because he saith in what he is guilty before men he will confesse ingeniously That the Reader may not beâ—…uded to beleeve what 's said by him there and by that be prepossest against the truth of the Antapologie I accept of his motion and request and if he will be pleased to procure any lawfull though the strictest Judicatorie yea the highest I am ready for so much as concerns him to appeare and bring my witnesses to a faire hearing and if the Judicature will give time and grant Warrants to bring in the witnesses that they may be deposed I doubt not but besides a rationall Answer by way of writing which I intended to make also a full Judiciarâ—… proofe yea to prove more then yet I have charged Mr Simpson with only I desire if I must be put to this trouble that Mr. Simpsons small and just request may be granted by the Judicature that he may suffer if he have done what in the Antapologie is reported of him and if I cannot make it good then I am contented to suffer and I am willing also to be judged by his own Law Pag. 7. Lege Remmia to be branded with a K in the forehead if I doe not by witnesses prove his preaching and acting for his way upon condition he may be served so if I doe and to the letter K to have the addition of L and P. But it may be objected Why doth Mr. Simpson of all the Apologists put forth such a Book before hand and dare it thus I answer in his own words some may perhaps conceive 't is a signe of guilt to speake so much and I conceive Mr Simpsons guilt and consciousnesse caused feare and feare that hastned him to thrust forth something in the way of the Antapologie to blast the credit of it before it was come forth and the truth of it is he of all the Apologists hath been most faulty both in Holland and in England and for the close of this concerning what 's reported in the Antapologie of M. Sympson I shall speake in the words made use of by himselfe God taketh the wise in their owne crastinesse and will destroy such wisdome and so I beleeve he hath done this of M Sympsons forestalling the Antapologie â—…ad M. Sympson remembred a late example of M. P. and M. W. brought in to prove what they had said and written of a Person of place and the issue of that â—…iall or had he staid till the Antapologie had come forth to have read what I charge him with he would never have written thus 2. Propos. That t is no way of God to divulge mens personall faults supposing the matter of facts to be true yet the divulging of them in this manner is not according to the Word of God I answer all that is brought by the Anatomizer for proofe page 5. out of Matt. 18. and his other grounds are nothing to the case and point in hand namely of making this Answer and I would aske Mr Sympson whether it be lawfull to make any Answer at all to the Apologie if it be then certainly if the Apologists have personall things and matters of fact no man can answer them fully and as they ought to be answered but he must speake to personall things and matters of fact and the fault of divulging personall things is not in the Antapologist but in the Apologists As for the 18. of Matth. that speakes of private offences and of offences that may be in that way healed and the other grounds brought by M. Sympson speaks to offences already repented of and not of such which in stead of being judged faults are made use of publikely to draw men into a way of errour by I give therefore these two distinct Answers 1. The Apologists have publiquely and openly sinned in avowing some things in the Apologie and they never yet repented of them as I heard but M. Sympson justifies himselfe and them in his Anatomist anatomized pag. 4. Now the Apostles rule is 1 Tim. 5. 19 20. though Timothy may not receive an accusation against an Elder under two or three witnesses yet them that sinne openly may be rebuked before all that others may feare now as the Apologists by Printing told all the Churches so by Printing it may be told to all the Churches the remedie ought to be proportioned according to the disease the plaister to be as large as the sore the Apologie hath spread it selfe to the Parliament Citie Kingdome and so ought the Remedie may Independents publiquely confidently write untruths and may not others in way of answering plainly point at them but t is against the way of God and not according to the Word 2. This may not only lawfully be done but this ought to be done when men shall tell sine stories and bring matters of fact interweave them all along to prove such a way by and to gaine people to errours by such Rhetoricall arguments he who answers such a booke and would preserve people from errours is bound to disprove all he can those matters of fact and to speake to those popular arguments by weakning the truth of those Relations all he knowes and secondly by showing how they are not argumentative nor evincing supposing they were true T is well knowne by them who are verst in the writings of the Protestants against the Papists how in many of the Controversies especially upon the notes of the Church the Protestant writers doe wherein they stand on matters of fact disprove them by matters of fact and personall things as upon Unitie Holinesse of life c. and I conceive in giving an Answer to the Apologie I could not have declined matters of fact without gratifying the cause of Independencie and wronging the truth I suppose the excellencie of an Answer as distinct from writing Tractates upon such a subject or such a point consists in three things 1. In not speaking whatever a man pleases or bringing in whatever he hath a mind to but in following the text before him and in keeping his discourse close to that 2. In not omitting any materiall passages skipping over the knots passing by the hard arguments and falling on the weake snatching here and there but going thorough all 3. In labouring to take the Authours mind laid down in the words and scope and in not wresting and fastning another sense upon the Authour All which I propounded to my selfe in falling upon this Answer and have aimed at in it and therefore could not omit matters of fact nor personall things brought by the Apologists especially when all along they are with much art framed and set to gaine credit to the Church way to prove some maine principles of their way and to effect
write in any other sense but in the point of Ecclesiasticall government and power did we lay to your charge in our writing against Independencie that you challenged an exemption of all Churches from all subjection and dependance or rather that you should blow a trumpet of desiance against what ever power spirituall or civill did I or any others charge you with refusing all subjection to the civill Magistrate And for that other dependance of consultation and non-communion upon other Churches the power you give in that kind to Synods c. I acknowledged it in my eight reason and argued from thence to the power of excommunication why then doe you deale thus deceitfully and doubly pretending to abhorre and detest Independencie as it was objected and pleaded against you when as besides the very words and phrases found in so many printed books and notes you hold all that in the question which is the difference betwixt you and the Presbyterians as also in some of your books Independent and entire power are termini convertibiles as in the title of Sions Prerogative Royall which entire full compleate power in terminis and in so many sillables you owne more then once in this Apologie so that all your great words of abhorring and detesting the exemption of your Churches from all power spirituall or civill will not save you from Independencie justly affixed unto you As for civill power it is not the question in controversie neither was it affixt unto you and for spirituall power properly cal'd you deny it all along in many pages speaking against authoritative power often page 15 18 19. And to put you this Dilemma either you give authoritative power to other Churches or you doe not if you doe give it why doe you speake so against it in your Apologie but if you doe not give it why would you make your Reader beleeve you doe give spirituall power and are not against it is not this doubling and shuffling and troubling the waters that the Reader cannot tell where to find you nor what you hold too great an evidence of a weake and bad cause becomming not such men as you would be taken for truth is open and naked and doth not seeke out holes and subterfugies But brethren doe not deceive your selves nor your Reader any longer if you be not against spirituall power properly so called of any Classes or Synods in reference to particular Congregations what meane you by all you say from page 12 to the end of the 19 and of all that controversie and Tragedies made by you against the reformed Churches for giving a power to Classes and Synods and let me intreate you that the controversie may be brought to some end between you and us in your Reply set down particularly what you will allow to Classes Synods generall Assemblies and Councels in matter of government and whether that you will allow and give Authority and power yea or no and what you will not give nor allow them and then state the question so and I doe promise you in my Rejoynder to apply my selfe to give you satisfaction as if you except Excommunication Ordination or what else to show you the grounds for them and if we love truth and peace either you shall win me or I you 3. For the odious name of Brownisme together with all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them must needs be owned by us I answer Brownisme as you in these words expresse it hath not been fastned on you by any that I know but on the contrary you have been commonly contra-distinguish'd from them being called Independents Semi-separatists and in my reasons against Independent government I doe in many passages difference you from them and for all their opinions as they have stated and maintained them namely drawing such consequences and conclusions and going so farre as they I have often vindicated you but yet for all that you cannot justly free your selves from the odious name of Brownisme in most of the fundamentall principles and practises of your Churches no not with all your Artifices and specious pretences As the Brownists growing up and out of the Anabaptists did refine and qualifie Anabaptisine in many things in government prophecying c. So have you refined and qualified Brownisme from the grossenesse and rigidnesse of it as it was held by the first Fathers and Authours of it as I could show in many particulars you doe not goe so farre as they neither are you against some practises of other Churches upon those high termes but yet for substance from the first stone to the last in departing from our Assemblies and constituting new you agree with them as by a paralell betweene the way of your Communion and the Separatists lately printed doth appeare And in a word it is evident thus You agree with the way of New-England as is confest by some of yourselves and we may judge so by your high praise of them Now the Churches of New-England agree with them of M. Robinsons Church who are moderate and qualified Brownists Now that the Church-way of New-England is the same with them of M. Robinsons Church is proved thus The Church at New-Plymouth was the first companie that planted in those parts who comming from Leiden where they were members of M. Robinsons Church a moderate Brownist in his latter time practised the Church-opinions and wayes they formerly had in Holland and when they of New-England went over first through their conversing with them and nearenesse of scituation they tooke up and learned their way as appeares by these particulars First M. W. an eminent man of the Church of New-Plymouth told W. R. that the rest of the Churches of New-England at first came to them of Plymouth to crave their direction in Church-courses and made them their patterne Secondly M. Cotton in a letter to M. Skelton one of the first Ministers that went over thither writes thus to him in way of answer to this Position that M. Skelton held That our Congregations in England are none of them particular Reformed Churches but M. Lathrops and such as his This errour requires rather a Booke then a letter to answer it you went hence of another judgement and I am afraid your change hath sprung from New-Plymouth men whom though I much esteeme as godly loving Christians yet their grounds which for this Tenet they received from M. Robinson doe not satisfie me Thirdly There is great commendations given to the Church of Plymouth by M. Cotton after comming to New-England in his letter to M. Williams pag. 13. Fourthly All the Ministers and Elders of New-England doe affirme that all the Churches in New-England viz. in the Bay in the jurisdiction of Plymouth and at Connetâ—…acute are one and the same way in Church constitution government and discipline without any materiall difference Now what can be said more plaine Adde to all these that I had it from the mouth of a
and this serves for Scripture grounds to them Now then for the manner of ordering of this according to different Kingdomes Nations or Cities in fewer or more subordinations and in the way and manner of proceedings by severall Churches according to locall temporall and personall circumstances they know well they must goe according to generall rules of the word to the common lawes of nature and prudence and so they leave other Churches to doe the like And had we been led in our former wayes and our removall out of this Kingdome by any such spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularity which are the usuall grounds of all schisme we had since our returnes againe during this intermisticall season tentations yea provocations enough to have drawne forth such a spirit having manifold advantages to make and increase a partie which we have not in the least attempted We found the spirits of the people of this Kingdome that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse they finding themselves to be so much at libertie and new come out of bondage readie to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way And we found that many of those mists that had gathered about us or were rather cast upon our persons in our absence began by our presence againe and the blessing of God upon us in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves or cause Whether all of you or only some of you were led in your former wayes and in your removall out of this Kingdome by any such spirit of faction c. I will not enter into your bosomes nor judge of secret things I leave you to search your selves and to give account of your spirits to the Father of spirits and whether you were led in your former wayes and in your removall out of the Kingdome by any such spirit or no 't is too evident by what I have fore-mentioned that a spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularity wrought too much amongst some of you abroad But though no such spirit led you there are to me and many others sufficient visible grounds of your removall out of this Kingdome after you once were off your setled places as your feare of personall violence your selfe-love and worldly wisdome to provide for your selves and yours what ever became of the publicke your horrible dispaire of comming in againe here or things ever turning in this Land as you twice expresse it your great and excessive admiration of the persons of some who were in the Church-way accounting there were no such men in the world as they your discontent and anger at the course and harsh usage in casting some of you out of your places which often times are grounds of heresies and schismes as I could shew out of Ecclesiasticall histories in Tertullian c. And besides these grounds if I may judge of your being led in your former wayes and of your removall out of the Kingdome as your selves make the argument by your spirit being drawne forth since your returne in making and encreasing a partie if that will evince your being led formerly by a spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularitie I know not how you will free your selves for since your returnes againe during this intermysticall season you have not been idle nor lost time but have laid hold on the temptations provocations and the manifold advantages to make and increase a partie nay you have not only laid hold on what you found readie to your hands namely the intermysticall season through so many great businesses comming in upon the Parliament one upon another the spirits of the people of the kingdom that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse finding themselves to be so much at libertie and new come out of bondage readie to take any impressions c. but you have made and encreased new for the making of a partie And I much wonder how you dare speake thus much lesse publiquely in print to publish that you have not in the least attempted to make and encrease a partie the contrarie whereunto is written in such great letters that he who runnes may reade it and I shall presently make evident in answering this passage with others of the like nature in the 25. and 26. pages For the spirits of the people of this Kingdome that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse and especially of the Citie and the adjacent parts you give a true character together with the ground of it finding themselves to be so much at liberty and new come out of bonduge and it is amongst all the passages in your booke one of the best and if the people would well mind and consider of it that they are readie to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way This might doe them as much good as all the Sermons you have preacht among them since your returnes and might prove an antidote both against the golden sweet poyson in this booke and the principles of your Church-way But thus we see by your owne confession how easily and readily errours are entertained by the good people of this Kingdome when as truth may stand without doores and knocke long before opened unto even as good Phisitians and good right phisicke hath a great deale a doe to find acceptance and admittance among the common-people when Mountabancks and Empricks are sought unto As to those words the finding that many of those mists that had gathered about you or were rather cast upon your persons in your absence began by your presence againe in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for your selves and cause I answer O happie rare men powerfull and gracious with the people whose very presence without speaking a word for themselves or cause could doe thus much after a long absence what will not your speaking and writing for your selves then doe 'T is well for you the most eminent servants of God in all ages have not found mists that had gathered about them or cast upon their persons to scatter and vanish away so easily but after all Apologies and Defence for themselves and cause have found them to sticke close and we find it harder to wipe off the aspersions and mistakes cast on us from your side though for nothing else but for discharging our consciences and labouring to keepe good people from errours But Brethren if it were so with you as here you write what need had you then to write this Apologie to cleare your selves from mistakes especially having been now so long present in the Kingdome and resident in the chiefe Citie having the libertie of the Pulpits and being members of the Assemblie would not the sudden confused noise of exclamations restecting upon you interpretatively without the writing of this
whatever any of your way can say for it Secondly When an Assembly was first agreed upon there were not many more Ministers and Schollers of your way in the Kingdome who were capeable of such a service how ever you may be encreased since so that you had as much advantage as your condition was capeable of yea and favour too Thirdly Considering the many hundred Ministers in this Kingdome that petitioned for Reformation and subscribed the Remonstrance who also bore the heate of the day and never flinched for it and the small number of the Independent who fled also to save their stake and to keepe in a whole skin having quitted to our Churches and Ministery and making no account to be bound by the determinations of the Assembly it is more in proportion both Arithmeticall and Geometricall to have Ten of you members in the Assembly then some hundreds of our Ministers and yet you know the whole number of Divines who meet there does not much exceed 80 persons Fourthly Number is little where conscientious men having taken such a Protestation come together to seeke out truth being free also to receive and chuse any government laid downe in the word and not over-awed by power or feare of crushing nor byased by hopes of preferment it is true in such an Assembly as the Convocation house of Bishops and their Clarkes was number was a great disadvantage Secondly For abilities of Learning I grant you there are many members of the Assembly goe farre beyond any of you in that yet among you all and in some particular men of you there are abilities enough of learning speech and wit to bring out and enforce to the greatest advantage upon study taking time which you doe and writing downe your grounds any Scripture or Reasons for your way so that you need not complaine for want of learning but rather for want of truth in your cause which will afford no better arguments for it Thirdly For Authority I know not well what you mean by that in this place you having so many doubtfull passages in your Apologie whether the Authority of Parliament or whether the Ministers who are for Presbytery have greater Authority in the Assembly then you or what else Now if you meane the first that the Presbyterian party hath the advantage of you namely the Authority of Parliament I answer the Parliament interposes no authority to determine what government shall be but calls the Assembly to advise with and draw up for them what government is most agreeable to the word giving also a liberty to the fewer number in matters of dissent to give in their Reasons as you in the 30th page grant and imply you will doe And as for the Parliament who are Authority there are but few Ministers of the Assembly who have been able to doe more with them then you or who have had a greater interest in their favour then your selves witnesse all passages of Parliament from first to last wherein the Parliament hath honoured any of the Ministers either in preaching before them upon solemne occasions or in calling this Assembly or in employing them about the Scottish affaires either in Englaâ—…d or into Scotland or in the setting up a Lecture at Westminster or in appointing Licensers for printing of bookes what ever it hath been or how few the number that have been employed though but two or three yet still an Independent hath beene one But secondly if you meane that the Ministers who differ in judgement from you have a greater Authority in the Assembly then you I answer you are all equall having a brotherly equality there the whole Assembly not having Authority that is Jurisdiction and power of censure over the meanest to cast him out or to hinder him from speech according to rule and order And as for authoritie of speaking in the Assembly and of being heard some of you have exercised as much of that as most there and for authority with the people to lead them whether you or most of the Ministers in the Assembly have the greatest is no controversie witnesse the deepe censures upon the Assembly and the godly Ministers every where by multitudes of the people but the great applause and crying up of you and other independents So that if authority with many well meaning people be an advantge it is on your side and that hath done you heretofore some service to make many men more shie of preaching against your way because of your great authority with the people that being ground enough to put many men out of the state of grace with some sorts of people besides â—…f authority in the peoples hearts could sway any thing with the Assembly against the truth yea but to suspend their judgements about the truth as I am confident it doth not then you would have the advantage of authority to sway the Assembly rather to your side then against you 4. For the fourth disadvantage the streame of publike interest this is a dangerous insinuation against the Assembly yea and the Parliament too without whom nothing the Assemby doth can be of any validitie as if they would be carried with the streame of publike interests rather then by the word of God and would bend the word of God to the streame of publike interest now let me put you this Dilemma either the publike interest of this Kingdome at this time will stand and agree with the word of God or it will not if it will stand then not only the Assembly but you also should be for that interest accounting the publike interest so suiting to the word of God an advantage but if it will not stand with the word but that the streame of publike interest runnes one way and Gods word another way can you think the Assembly will be carried with publike interest and leave the streame of the word would not the Assembly rather follow the word of God accounting walking according to that the greatest and most publike interest hath the Parliament Kingdome and Ministers done and suffered so much for a Reformation according to the word of God and now after all this is there a streame of publike interest divided from the word to carry away the Ministers called together according to which a government must be framed and the Church reformed and this is the great disadvantage that some members of the Assembly who would goe according to the word of God meet withall and must be put to swimme against Bretheren what will the Prelates say of our Reformation and Church government when you speake thus have not you put a sword into their hands this day against us and shall we not heare of it but I wish bretheren whilst you thus asperse the Assembly with the danger of being carried a way with the streame of publike interest that the streame of your own particular private interest and credit among the people did not too much carry you away as many other waies so in writing
determinations to it and in the Epistle before Mr Cottons late booke Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye have many passages against Assemblies and Synods having power of binding Determinations though a Ministeriall Doctrinall power they grant and did you give to Synods and Assemblies in all sorts of lesser differences a binding Determination of truth one way and not only of consultation direction and at utmost but of Doctrinall Decernment the controversie would be at an end and therefore in writing thus judging that to be as great an end of Synods as this of binding Determinations and not holding it you hold neither and then what tends all this to but to deceive the Reader And thus we have nakedly and with all simplicitie rendred a cleare and true account of our wayes and spirits hitherto Which we made choice of now at first to make our selves known by rather then by a more exact and Scolastique relation of our Iudgements in the points of difference about Church-Governement reserving that unto the more proper season and opportunitie of this Assembly and that libertïe given by both Honourable Houses in matters of dissent or as necessity shall after require to a more publique way of stating and asserting of them In the meane time from this briefe historicall relation of our practises there may a true estimate be taken of our opinions in difference which being instanced in and set out by practises is the most reall and least collusive way and carries its owne evidence with it All which we have taken the boldnesse together with our selves humbly to lay at the feet of your wisedome and piety Beseeching you to look upon us under no other Notion or Character then as those who if we cannot assume to have been no way furtherers of that Reformation you intend yet who have been no way hinderers thereof or disturbers of the publique peace and who in our Iudgements about the present worke of this age the Reformation of Worship and Discipline doe differ as little from the Reformed Churches and our brethren yea farre lesse then they doe from what themselves were three yeares past or then the generality of this Kingdome from it selfe of late I wonder how you can say We have nakedly and with all simplicity rendred a cleare and true account of our wayes and spirits hitherto and for the truth of these lines I appeale to any indifferent Reader and to your owne Consciences upon the review and examination of your book and I desire the Reader to remember what all along in my answer I have observed and made good against many passages both in matters of fact and opinion and the result will be that in truth the words may be inverted in stead of Nakedly covertly in stead of all simplicitie all subtilty in stead of a cleare and true account of your wayes and spirits a darke conceal'd and untrue account so that your words might have been trulyer written And thus we have covertly and with all subtilty rendred a dark conceal'd and untrue account of our wayes and spirits hitherto As for those words which we made choice of now at first to make our solves known by rather then by a more exact and Scholastique relation of our Iudgements c. I answer it was the speciall hand of God against you and your way and I cannot but take speciall notice of it and desire you would that you should choose now at first to make your selves knowne by such an Apologie and in such a way rather then by a Scholastique relation of your Judgements A Scholastique relation would not have made you to knowne as this neither have discovered your spirits nor have given that just occasion and necessity of discovering you it would not have drawne in so many against you nor have drawne forth such answers as this But let me aske you the reason why chose you this way at first rather then a Scholasticall way if you would now in the time of the Assembly have beene making your selves known in your tenets and opinions and not have staied till the debating and discussing of them it had been for many Reasons best to have printed an exact and Scholastique relation of your judgements in the points of difference rather then such a popular and Rhetoricall discourse Can there be any reasons given for it but that this was writ to take the people with to prepare their mindes for your way for feare the Assembly should conclude against it and the more to engage your party to stand for you you having thus openly and confidently declared your selves as also because you are best at this weapon more able in a laxe discoursing way to expresse your selves then in a close presse Syllogisticall Argumentative way and people are most taken with such kind of discourses rather then with arguments As for that you say of reserving that unto the more proper season and opportunitie of this Assembly and that liberty given by both Honourable Houses in matters of dissent or as necessity shâ—…ll after require to a more publique way of stating and asserting of them Why could you not as well reserve this Apologeticall Narration a little longer as the Scholastique Relation of your Judgements especially having reserved it so long were you in such hast that the Assembly being upon the borders of the points in difference nay they being brought in by the Committees to be discussed you must send out such a discourse to prepare the way for you did you hope the Assembly as well as the people would be taken with good words and such flourishes and since as you pretend the ground of your silence in page 27. such a one as it was was that you might reserve your selves for the Assembly and let that be the stage whereon first you would bring your Tenets into publike view why did you goe contrary and first bring your opinions forth upon the stage of this Apologie to all the world before you brought them to the Assemblie and so frustrate your own resolutions and crosse your own words in page 27. But before I leave this I cannot but observe that you expresse you will draw up your dissent from the Assemble in a Scholastique way to both Houses and afterwards publikely print your grounds belike you are beforehand resolved what to hâ—…ld and so are preparing your selves to draw up your grounds for both Houses you meditate upon dissent and non-agreement and I perceive the Assembly must expect to be dealt with by you as the Synod of Dort was by the Arminians you will be Remonstrants well you may take your course and begin when you please the Assembly hath members enough able to deale with you at that weapon As to those words In the meane time from this briefe historicall relation of our practises there may a true estimate be taken of our opinions in difference which being instanced in and set out by practises is the most reall and least collusive way and carries
and doe pursue the designe of increasing your partie and spreading your way as the onely way of God else why have you preached and done so much for it neither can I beleeve you are so low spirited and so terrene as to look out after no other inrerest but a poore subsistance in this Kingdome what have you not the designe and interest of setting up Christs Kingdome and pure Ordinances in the midst of us I professe for my selfe and brethren that we have greater interests and designes in our seeking Reformation then a subsistance in our owne land though it might be never so full and plentifull namely the glory of God the advancement of the Kingdome of Christ the opportunities of doing more service And as for a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest I appeale to the Conscience of the Reader whether that be likely have you contented your selves with a poore and mean condition hitherto have you lived in a poore rank preaching in poore and meane Congregations or have you not ruffled it bearing a higher saile and carrying a greater port then most of the Godly Ministers in Citie or Countrey have not some of you the prime Lectures of the Citie and other good places of advantage and profit besides what some of you have from your owne Churches could not you have been contented to have added more places and can any who know you in what height you live and what Grandees of the times you are and how much you appeare in publike in the chiefe places of resort and have insinuated into so many great men beleeve that you would live contented with a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest let them beleeve you who will for my part I am not satisfied in the truth of it but doe suspect that if the Parliament should make an offer to you to this purpose you would refuse it You say you pursue no other Interest or designe but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest in your owne land well you five shall have your Church-way and enjoy Congregations in such a remote corner of the Kingdome provided you shall not have above fiftie pounds a yeare nor above fiftie persons to each Church you shall adde none from any other Congregations of the Kingdome nor admit any of other Congregations to come to heare you nor never preach in any of our Churches any of your Church-Principles nor speake of them in private to any but your owne members would this satisfie you in your Reply give a positive and cleare answer As for that you say where we have and may doe further service I answer before you fell into this new Church way you did God service but since you have done more dis-service then ever service and if God be pleased to bring you backe into the fellowship of this Church and to joyne in this Reformation to grow up into one body you may doe him further service otherwise in the way of a Toleration which you aime at you will doe more hurt then you can doe good in this Kingdom yea though you had the tongues and parts of Angels As for those words a subsistance in the land which is our birth-right as we are men and the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ our portion as we are Christians I answer a subsistance in the land according to the Lawes established is your birth-right but not otherwise besides the deniall of a Toleration of your Churches doth not deny you a subsistance in the land but you may subsist if you please though no Toleration But supposing you may not have what you please if thereupon you will remove to other Kingdomes that is your fault and not the States when a Father or Master lets their children and servants have what is good and fitting but denies to let them doe what they list and refuses to grant what would hurt them if the children and servants will goe away and put themselves upon inconveniences to have their mindes and wils else-where it is not the parents and masters fault but the children and servants if men will punish themselves with Exile because they cannot have their wils they can blame none but themselves And as for the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ which you say are your portion as you are Christians then they are your portion not as Church members but as Christians and why then doe you keep away many good Christians from them for want of being Church members after your way but let me tell you though the ordinances of Christ be the portion of Christians yet not in what way and dresse so ever they will have them for so the Papists may plead to enjoy them in their way and the Anabaptists in their way but they are the portion of Christians so as to enjoy them according to the word of God in the publike Assemblies and not in a schismaticall way and so may you enjoy among us publike ordinances in the publike Assemblies but to forsake the publike Assemblies and draw away others with you and to set up a wall of separation between you and the reformed Churches this is not your portion as you are Christians but it is against Christianity and is your sinne and schisme As for that allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse you need not doubt that so farre as will stand with peaceablenesse that is so as not to urge subscriptions upon you to all the points of government and order not to cast you out from preaching amongst us though you may be of a different judgement in some lesser matters especially so long as you keep your judgements to your selves and preach not contrary to what is established to make factions and parties But if you meane by the allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences that you and others may have free leave to set up separated Congregations and goe and receive in to your Churches whom you please and governe Independently in a different forme of government from the government established I must tell you this ought not to be granted as being inconsistent with peace and truth and would be a perpetuall root and source of many bitter divisions errours and mischiefes in this Kingdome As for your last words of all not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to sot your seet on earth that seemes strange to me doe none of the English Ministers who live in other parts of the world as in Holland New-England and other places enjoy safety health and livelihood are these things confined and tied only to England did not most of you enjoy all these abroad livelihood is confessed in your Apologie a full and liberall maintenance annually safety you went over for and found and as for health some of your way have commended Arnheim you lived at to be like Hartford and Bury in Suffolke and one of you Roterdam to be as good if not better then London which places for health