signify three yeares and a halfe which short compasse of tyme cannot in any sort be applyed to the Bishop of Reme as Antichrist teaching the present Roman Religion seeing he hath coÌ„tinued preaching the sayd Doctrine Religion euen by the Protestants confessions as now I see many hundred of yeares But good my Lord Cardinall if there be any other reasons behinde to impugne this sayd change I would intreate your Lordship to descend to them for in matters of great importance variety seldome breedeth satiety CARD BELLARM. I am willing therto And for the further prosecution therof I am to put you in mind M. Doctour partly according to my former Method set downe in the beginning that wheras the Professours of the Church of Rome were in the Apostles dayes the true Church of Christ as is aboue on all sides confessed and consequently the most ancient Church since truth is euer more ancient then falsehoode and Errours It therfore followeth that all Hereticks whatsoeuer who make choyse of any new doctrine in Fayth do make a reuolt and seperation from that Church of the Apostles according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt a nobis they went out of vs and answerably to that other text certaine that went forth from vs which very words do contayne a Brande or Note vpon the Authour of euery Heresy Since the Apostle and the Euangelist do meane hereby that euer first Hereticke goeth out from a more aucient society of Christians then by him is chosen So as to go out of a precedent Church or society of Christians is not only an infallible note of Heresy in the iudgment of Vincentius Lyrinensis quis vnquam Haereses instituit nisi qui priùs ab Ecclesiae Câ—â—boli ae Vniuer sitatis antiqnitatis consensione discreâ—â—it but euen by your owne Brethren for we finde Osiander among others thus to write Nota Haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur Thus do Hereticks euer forsake the generall most ancient company of Christians as smale Brooks do often leaue the common channell of the mayne Riuer Now here I demaÌ„d of you M. Doctour to shew from what company or society of Christians more ancient did we Catholicks in those former tymes when first you say this chaÌ„ge of Faith was made depart or from what Church afore in being went we out The euidency of this Note is manifested in Caluin Luther the Waldenses the Wicliffians and all other ancient acknowledged Sectaries of whom it is confessed that all of them were originally Members of our Catholicke Church and by their making choise of particuler Doctrines so Iudas the Apostle who departing from the company of the Apostls after became Iudas the Traitour did go and depart out of the present Roman Church and therby became Hereticks The like M. Doctour I do here expect that you should prooue by authority of Ecclesiasticall Histories of the present Catholicke and Romane Church which if you cannot then is the inference most strong that the present Church of Rome neuer made any such reuolt from or departing out of that Church which was established by the Apostles at Rome and consequently that the present Church of Rome neuer suffered any change in Fayth since it first being a Church D. WHITAKERS Your Church hath departed from that Fayth which the Apostles first preached in Rome and I hope this departure and going out without other proofs is sufficient enough And here I answere with M. Newstubâ— one of our learned Brethren That when you require who were they that did note your going out c. This question I say is vnvecessary c. we haue taken you with the manner that is to say with the Doctrine diuerse from the Aposties and therfore neither Law nor Conficience can force vs to examen them who were witnesses of you first departing Thus my Brother M. Newstubs And my Lord as it is far better for one to haue a cleare sight then to enioy the best helps for curing a bad sight so we here prefer the truth of the Doctrine first preached at Rome by the Apostles and manifested vnto vs by the perspicuity of the scripture before all humane reasons and arguments directed to the discouerie of Romes after embraced Innouation CARD BELLARM. What strang Logicke is this and how poore a Circulation do you make The mayne question betweene vs is whether the present Church of Rome hath changed it Fayth or no since the Apostles dayes To prooue that it hath not Iverge that the professours therof did neuer go out of any more ancieÌ„t Church and consequently euer retayned without change it former Fayth Now you in answere hereto as not being able to instance the persons by whom or the tymes when any such departing or going out was made by the Professours of our Religion reply that it Doctrine is different from the Doctrine of the Apostles and therfore the Church of Rome hath changed it Religion since the Apostles tymes and this sophism you know is but Petitio Principij or a beginning of the matter in question and is nothing els but without answering to any of my premisses the denyall of my Conclusion which kynd of answenng I am sure impugneth all Logicke and therfore all Reason since Logicke is but Reason sublimated and refined But to proceed further In euery introduction of a new Religion or broaching of any innouation in Doctryne the Professours therof receaue a new denomination or name for the most part from the first authour of the new doctryne and sometymes from the Doctrine its selfe like vnto a running riuer which commonly taketh the name of that riuer into which it falleth Thus the Arians the Valentinians Marcionists Manicheans from Arius Valentinus Marcian and Manicheus c. or from the doctrine it selfe as the Hereticks Monothelites Agnoitae Theopaschitae c. though this more seldome This Note or Marke of imposing a new name of the Professours of euery arrising Heresy may be exemplified in all Heresies without exception ingendred since the Apostles tymes euen to this day a poynt so exempt from all doubt as that your learned Man M. Doctour Feild thus writeth Surely it is not to be denyed but that the naming after the names of Men was in the time of the Primatiue Church peculiar and proper to Hereticks and Schismaticks with whom agreeth M. Parks both of them borrowing it from the ancieÌ„t Fathers and particulerly from Chrysostome who thus saith Prout Haeresiarchae nomen it a Secta vocatur Well then this being thus acknowledged on all sides If the present Church of Rome hath made a change from her first Primatiue Fayth then the Professours therof by introducing of new Heresies and Opinions became Heretickes and consequently they haue taken according to our former grounde some name either from the first broachers of these new Doctrines or from the doctrines themselues But you cannot M. Doctour shew any such name to be imposed vpon vs
RomanaÌ„ speculationem suam toti orbi indicere Gregory sayth that the Roman Sea appoynteth her watches ouer the whole world Now by all this here deliuered M. Doctour you may see whether or no Gregory did practise the Authority of an Vniuersall Bishop as the word is taken in a sober and in the Latter aboue mentioned construction And thus much of the Example of Iohn of Constantinople and of Gregory the Greate which is so often enforced and vrged though with extreame wilfull or at least ignorant mistaking by many of your Protestant doctours MICHEAS Our Law of Moyses euer enioyed one Supreame Priest and therfore seeing the tyme of the new Testament is much superiour to the tyme of the Law I do not see but now in theiyme of Grace there should be one Supreame Bishop ouer the whole Church of Christ and consequently the acknowledgmeÌ„t of such an Vniuersall Bishop should not be reputed any Innouation in Religion or change made from the first Institution of such a Pastour by Christ hymselfe CARD BELLARM. Michaeas you speake according to the Truth and no more then certaine Puritan protestants do teach who wryte thus thereof The high Priest of the Iewes was typically and in a figure the supreme heade of the whole Catholyke Church with whom as other Protestant thus iumpeth saying That forme of gouerment which maketh our Sauiour Christ inferioâ—r to Moâ—ses is an impious vngodly and vnlawfull gouerment contrary to the Word c. But M. D. proceede on further D. VVHITAKERS Our best Controuersists which as I may terme them aâ— the Infantaria of our Protestant Churches Souldiers do teach that touching your Sacrament of Confession Innocentius the Third was the first that instituted auricular Confession for necessary Now this Innocentius liued not past some foure hundred yeares since so late and fresh yow fee your Doctryne of Auricular Confession is And admitting this yonr Article touching Confession were not so new but for more ancient yet this Circumstance here auayleth litle since we are to call to minde that Haereses nonâ—am Nouitas quam veritas reuincit CARD BELLARM. I graunt willingly that many of your Controuersists among whom I also raÌ„ge yourfelfe are accounted meÌ„ of learning And therefore I rest the more amazed to see yow here perhaps with resolued willfullnes against the Truth obiect this example to vs for Nouelty But I feare your and their learninge is cheifly in obtruding errours and misstakings for warrantable Truths and such a knowledge is not to be preferred before simple Ignorance But to cleare this Innocentius from all innouation herein and not to oppresse yow with multitude of Authorities We finde S. Bernard who liued before Innocentius the third thus to wryte of this point Sed dicis sufficit mihi soli Deo confiteri c. But thou saiest it is sufficient for me to confesse my sinnes only vn to God because a Preist without him cannot absolue me from my sinnes To Which thy argument not I but S. Iames answereth Confesse your sinnes one to an other But to ascend higher S. Leo. who liued anno 440. describing the vse of the Latin Church in this poynt thus saith Christus hanc Ecclesiae Prepositis tradidit potestatem c. Christ did deliuer this power to the Prelates of his Church that they should impose penance vpon them that confessed their sinnes that so they being purged through a healthfull satisfaction might be admitted by Way of reconciliation to the communion of the Sacraments In lyke sort S. Basil S. Leo his ancient discoursing of the vse of the Greeke Church herein and teaching that a Ghostly Father in tymeof CoÌ„fession is an other from himselfe thus writeth Necessariò peccata eis aperiri debeÌ„t c. Our sinns are necessarily see heere the Necessity of Confession to be opened to those to whoÌ„ the dispensation of the Mysteries of Christ are giueÌ„ for indeede we find that all the AncieÌ„ts did follow this course in Penance To be breife Cypryan and Tertullian of so greate antiquity is Auricular Confession are charged by your owne Centurists to teach priuate Confession and this euen of thoughts and lesser sinnes and that such Confession was then commanded and thought necessary Thus far of this point Where by the way I must tell you that since protestaÌ„cy had it first source froÌ„ sence and sensuality the lesse wounder it is that Confession of sinnes made to a preist being so vngratfull to mans nature should be so vnpleasing to all protestants and so basely esteemed of for we all know that the water will ascend no higher then is the leuell of its first spring MICHNS I must acknowledg that our AncieÌ„t Iewes did vse particular Confession of sinns to a Preist Galatinus who hath collecteda summary of our Iewish Religion sheweth in diuers parts of his Writings our continual practise therof Adde hereto that the prefiguration of Auricular Confession is not wanting in Leuiticus for seeing there were then appovnted different Sacrifices to be offered vp by the Priest for different sinns and offences how could the Priest know what kind of Sacrifice he were to offer except he knew the particular sinne for which it is to be offered Now then in regard of our Iewish practise hereof seing there is no reasoÌ„ why now in the New Testament it should be wholy abrogated I cannot be induced to think that the vse therof is to be accompted as an innouation and change different from the doctrine first planted in Rome by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS Your doctrine of Transubstantiatinn was first inuented by Innocentius the third in the Councell of Lateran for before that tyme not any one of the ancient Fathers did hold it for where euer in any of their writings was made any mention of Transubstantiation CARD BELLARM. Good God how poore and needy in proofe are you M. Doctour For indeed you greatly wrong your selfe and this presence in suggesting such vnwarrantable Assertions True it it is that if you insist in the word Transubstantiation wee grant that it was first inuented and imposed vpon the Doctrine of the Reall Presence in the councell of Lateran But then this is but a verball litigation of you for though the Word was then first formed to expresse the Doctrine of the Church therein yet the doctrine it selfe was generally beleeued in all ages before And still you allow M. Doctour by reseÌ„blance this illation as good and necessary The VVord ' omousios or Consubstantialis was first inuented in the Councell of Nice to expresse the Doctrine of the Church touching the Trinity Ergo the Doctrine of the Trinity was not beleeued before the Councell of Nice Idly and inconsequently concluded Therfore M. Doctour let your iudgment herein draw equally with your learning But to come particulerly to the doctrine it selfe and to omit that S. Augustine sayth vocatur caro quod non capit caro And in another place
of you the second time for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein how longe do you thinke that the Church of Rome did continue in her Verginall state and Purity without any stayne in her Faith D. WHITAKERS I thinke that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ the Church was pure florishing and inuiolably taught and defended the Fayth deliuered by the Apostles During all which ages the Church of Christ in respect of truth in Faith and Religion was as I may say in the full assent of the wheele And although to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens yet I am fully perswaded that for the space of the first six hundred yeares no annomalous exorbitancies of errours or superstition did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour indeed part of what you here say are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders and you deale more liberally herein then diuers of your Breehren by affording a hundred and fifty yeares more to the true Church then most of them will allow Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ do withall implicitly and inferentially grant that no change of Faith was made in that Church within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares as being part of them But to proceed further you are here M. Doctour to call to minde what your selfe at other times no doubt at vnawares haue writen I do finde to instance only in some two or three points that you affirme that Victor who liued anno 160. after Christ was the first that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches That not Cyprian only who liued anno 240. to vse your owne words but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in errour touching the Doctrine of good works as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne to satisfy Gods iustice Finally that Leo who was Pope anno 440. to speake in your owne dialect was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome Are not all these your assertions M. Doctour D. WHITTAKERS I cannot but acknowledge them for mine since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes loath I am to be so vnnaturall as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne CARD BELLARM. Marke well then M. Doctour my deduction If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse And if as your owne penne hath left it written the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian generally by other Fathers of that age and to be short if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist you meaning of our present Roman Religion all which said Fathers to wit Cyprian Victor Leo and the rest did liue diuers ages before the sixt age or Century to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses if al this be true as you affirme it is that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy the doctrine of merit of workes and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist as you tearme the Pope were no innouations but the same pure doctrines which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome Se how your felfe through your owne inaduertēcy hath fortified the truth of that doctrine which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow And thus farre to show that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome prooued from the distribution diuision of those two different times which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth D. WHITTAKERS My L. Cardinall Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts who teach that in the second third fourth age after Christ such such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning It seemeth in my iudgment that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause Since such testimonies if so you will stand to them do shew a beginning though most anciēt of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times you are also by force of reason to admit their like authorities in saying that at such tymes and not before those Articles were first taught for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one the same sentence or testimony why should the one part thereof be vrged for true and the other reiected as false MICHAEAS M. Doctour Here with my L. Cardinall and your owne good licence I am to make bould to put in a word or two This your reply M. Doctour by way of inference may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you Grant then that some miscreants or Heathen Writers as Enemies to the Law of Moyses affirme that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras for example This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient at least as Esdras but it cannot be alleadged to prooue that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only and not before in the dayes of Moyses Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature produced from our Aduersaries writinges we are to distinguish and seuer that which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs from that which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage What he grāteth for vs against himselfe so farre we are to embrace his authority seing it may be presumed that ordinarliy no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe his Religion but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto and therefore one of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church if I do remember his words in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause and against vs their we are not to stand to his own authority since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe and it well may be presumed that such his sentence
brightnesse our Lord euen foreseeing so much saith A Citye that is built vpon a hill cannot be hidd And further S. Augustin thus enlargeth himselfe Ecclesia vera nemiem latet the true Church is hidd or concealed from no man And yet more numquid digito c. Do we not point our fingar to the Church it doth she not lye open to all And lastly he exaggerateth this point further in these words Quid amplius diccturus sum c. What may I more say then account them blynd who cannot see so greate a mountaine who do shult their eyes against a candel placed in a candelstich Thus S. Austin And thus farre of the Fathers from whence we may easely coniecture how muche different ware the iudgements of the auncient and primatiue Fathers from their conceipts who labour by their speeches to turne the faire streame of the Churches Resplendency into the shallow current of her supposed Obscurity 1. In this next place I will descend to arguments drawne from analogy of reason And first from the comparison made betwene the old Testament and the New Testament Certaine it is that the Iewes euer since Ghrists dayes retained and kept a knowne profession of their Religion though vnder some restraint and their Synagogues haue euer since bene extarnally visible though disperced as in Greece Spayne Italy Germany France England c. And this point Peter Martyr and others do acknowledg and your selfe Michaeas can well iustify the same Now then if the Church of the new Testament should want a continuall Visibility then should it be inferiour in honour and dignity to the Iewish Synagogue euen then when the Gospell is prophesied to be most florishing and the Synagogue to be in it greatest decay and ruyne a reasonable to ouerbalance all reasons brought to the contrary 2. The foresaid Conclusion of the Churches Visibility is also proued from the beginning and progresse of the Church For first durnig the old Testament the Church was then so Visible as that the Professours thereof did beare euen in their flesh the Visible and markable signe of Circumcision as a badg of the Church Againe in the new Testament the whole Church of Christ was in it infancy and beginning in Christs Apostles and Disciples Who were so Visible as that the Holy Ghost did Visibly descend vpon them vpon the feast of Penticost Furthermore We reade in the Acts. c 2. 3. 4. that on one day three thousands on an other fyue thousands were adioyned to the former by their confession of fayth and Baptisme And so after they and only they were reputed as membrs of Christs Church who did adioyne themselue to the former Christians by their externall confession of fayth and by Baptisme 3. An other argument may be taken from the greate necessity imposed vpon Christians who are obliged vnder paine of eternall damnation to range themselues vnto the true Church of Christ and to perseuer in the same as appareth not only from the testimonies of Cyprian Ierome and Austin but euen from reason it selfe Since no man can raigne with Christ who is not a member of Christ But how can this be performed if the Church of Christ be Inuisible Or how can God be excused from cruelty by threatning to vs eternal perdition for our not performing such conditions the which supposing the Church not to be Visible is not in our power to accomplish 4. Furthermore the Inuisibility of the Church impugneth the marks of the Church giuen by vs Protestants which are the true preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments seeing there matters cannot be put in practice but among a Visible Society of men and such a Society as that one of it is knowne to an other 5. Againe the Inuisibillity of the Church mainly crosseth the ende for which the Church of God was instituted Which end was to prosecute God with that entier and perfect worship which man can giue to him that is worship him not only with his Soule but also externally with his body and works or deeds seeing Man consisteth of soule and body But an Inuisible Church performeth it worship to God only in hart and minde And with this I end referring the last point to you Michaeas who is next to enter as I may say vpon the stage MICHAEAS Most willingly I come For if we peruse the writings and especially of such who haue bene of the chiëfest note in the Protestant Church it is a world to see how riotous as it were and abounding they haue bene in their works for proofe of the Churches Visibility at all times and in respect of all men and this euen in the Conclusion it selfe without any borowed sequels though neuer so necessary And first we find Caluin the halfe Arche of the Protestant Church thus to say Nunc de Visibili Ecclesia c. Now we determine to dispute of the Visible Church c. extracuius gremium nulla est speranda peccatorum remissio out of whose bosome we cannot expect any remission of sinns Neither is Melancton lesse full herein who thus acknowledgeth Necesse est fateri esse Visibilem Ecclesiam c. it is necessary to confesse the Church to be Visible Whither tendeth then haec portentosa oratio this monstrous opinion which denyeth the Church to be Visible Melancthon Further thus saith Whensoeuer we thinke of the Church let vs behould the company of such men as are gathered together which is the Visible Church Neither let vs dreame that the Elect of God are to be found in any other place then in this Visible Society c. neither let vs imagine of any other Inuisible Church Briefly the said Melancthon vrging diuers texts of Scripture in proofe of the Churches Visibility thus coÌ„cludeth Hi similes loci c. These and such lyke places of Scripture non de Ideä Platonica sed de Ecclesia visibili loquuntur do not speake of Plato his Ideä but of the Visible Church this Melancthon The Learned Hunnius giueth his sentence in these words God in all times hath placed his Church in a high place and hath exalted it in the sight of all Prople and Nations Iacobus Andreas that famous Protestant thus â—umpeth with his brethreÌ„ herein We are not ignorant that the Church must be a Visible company of teachers and hearers The eminet Danâ—usâ—oth â—oth thus second the rest Who denyeth the true Church of God and that Visible to haue bene from the beginning of the world he without doubt sheweth himselfe to be ignorant in holy Schripture M. Hooker your Countriman thus writeth of this point God hath had euer shall haue some Church Visible vpon earth Peter Martyr once your Companion Ochinus confesseth the trueth herein in these words We do not appoint an Innisible Church but do define the Church to be a Congregation vnto which the faithfull may know that
may challenge the Scripture for the fortifying of his Heresyes as fully as we Protestants can do And therefore I do allow that former sentence of Vincentius alledged by you Neuserus D. REYNOLDS I haue found some of our owne learned brethren to teach though aforehand I tell you Michaeas that I dissent in opinion from them that the Church of Rome and the Protestant Church are but one and the same Church from which position they inferre that seeing the predictions of the continuall Visibility of the Church of God and an vninterrupted administration of the Word and Sacraments haue bene performed at least as you Romanists do auerâ—e in the Church of Rome that consequently ours and yours being but one Church they are performed in the Protestant Church And according hereto we find M. Hooker thus to teach We gladly acknowledg them of Rome to be of the family of Iesus Christ c. And agayne we say that they of Rome c. are to be held a part of the house of God a limme of the visible Church of Christ with whome conspireth D. Some thus graunting The learneder Wryters acknowledge the Church of Rome to be the Church of God But this Opinion I haue to the liberty of euery one eyther to retayne it or reiect it MICHAEAS Here now you Protestants are retyred to your last refuge and hould And thus is Errour glad to be shrowded vnder the Wings of Truth For whereas the most dispassionate sober learned Protestants among you do grant that for many ages before Luthers reuolt they cannot truly and really iustify the visibility of their Church in particular much lesse the administration of the word and Sacraments And yet during all the sayd ages they see that all this is actually accomplished in our Catholicke Roman Church They are therefore forced to giue back and to retyre in all their former answeres And at length are driuen for the supporting of their owne Church to say that the Protestant Church the Roman Catholicke Church are identically but one and the same Church And thereupon they inferre as you M. Doctour say that seing our Catholicke Church be generall acknowledgment hath euer continued visible during all the former ages that therefore your Protestant Church both being but one and the same by their curteous yeelding hath also enioyed the same priuiledge of a perpetuall Visibility and the like administration of the Word and Sacraments So ready you Protestants are for the preseruing only of your owne imaginary Church in former tymes to ioyne hands with they Catholicks if so they would agree therto you granting that your owne Succession calling and Ministery is and hath bene for former ages continued and preserued only in the Succession calling Ministery of our Catholicke Roman Church And according to this our meaning M. Bunny a Protestant of good esteeme here in England dealeth plainly ingeniously herein for he not only teacheth as the former Protestants do but giueth sincerely the true reason of such their doctrine to wip that otherwise they cannot proue the being of the Protestant Church during so many former ages for thus he writeth Of the departing from the Church there ought to be no question amang vs. We are no seuerall Church front them meaning from vs Catholicks nor they from vs And therefore there is no departing at all out of the Church Nor any do deparâ— from them to vs nor from vs to them c. And yet more fully It was euill done of them who vrged first such a separation c. For that it is great probability for them meaning vs Catholicks that so we make our selfâ— answerable to find out a distinct and seuer all Church from them which hath continued from the Apostles age to this present Or els that needs we must acknowledge that our Church is sprung vp but of late or since theirs And finally M. Bunny thus concludeth Our Aduersaryes see themselues to haue aduantage if they can ioynt vs to this separation Thus M. Bunny But touching my particular iudgment herein I vtterly with all Catholicks disclayme from mantayning that our Church and the Protestant Church is all one And I confidently auerre that this strange Paradox is inuented by Protestants for the reasons aboue expressed OCHINVS What is the matter brought to this Issue that we must grant the Papists Church and our Church to be one and the same Church Is this M. Doctour the euent of our disputation I will here imprecate with the Poet against myselfe Sed mihi vel tellus optem priùs ima debiscat Vel Pater Omnipotens adigat â—â—fulâ—ine ad vmbraâ— Pallâ—â—ies vmbras Erebi â—octeâ—que profundam Before I acknowledge the Synagogue of Rome to be the Church of God NEVSERVS I giue you free leaue Ochinâ—s to include me within this your imprecation For I will dye the death of a sinner before I grant that the Popish Church is the same with the Protestant Church What shall Superstition and Idolatry by our owne consents be aduanced and set vp side by side with the Gospell in the throwne of Gods Tabernacle It is a thing insufferable and the thought thereof is not so much as once to be entertayned MICHAEAS Gentlemen good words God grant your owne Prayers agaynst your selfs be not heard And though I be of your mynd that the Catholicke Church and your Church is not all one Church yet if before your deaths you do not acknowledge the Church of Rome for the true Church doublesly your prayer wil be heard when your selfs though too late shall with vnutterable but improfitable remoâ—se condemne your selfs of your owne grosse consideration in so weighty a matter But M. Doctour and you two Hitherto we see our discourse hath bene cheifly spent in your obiecting Arguments for your Churches visibility and my answering of them Now I do expect that our Scenes be altered And that I may insist in obiecting what I haue red confessed euen by the most learned Protestants touching this subiect For these alternatiue variations of parts in dispute are in all Reason and by custome of all Schooles most warrantable D. REYNOLDS We giue you good leaue For it argueth a great distrust diffidence in a Mans cause to tye his aduersary only to answere and neuer to suffer him to oppose And it is as vnreasonable as if in a Duelisme the one party should be indented with only toward and neuer to sryke Therefore proceed Michâ—â—s at your pleasure MICHAEAS Truth sayth S. Augustin iâ— mâ—re foroible to wrâ—ng 〈◊〉 Confession then any rackâ— or tormâ—nt Which sentence we fyâ—d to be iustifyed in this Question of the Protestant Churches Inuisibility For diuers learned Protestants there are who as being more ingenuous and vpright in their wrytings and in their managing of matters of Religion then others of their party as well discerning the insufficiency of all pretended Instances and other colorable euasions and answeares which
your Oratorye Wee say the Prophecies of the old Testament of which we haue set downe so great store are infallibly to be performed We find they are not performed in Christ Church How then can we beleiue in Christ as our true Messias and Redemer or repâ—te his Church for the true Church of God And where you Michaeas replye that the said Prophecyes are accomplished in your Popish Church that forceth nothing since we are assured that that your Church is a superstitious and idolatrous Church and wholy alienated from the Couenant of God Therefore briefly touching my self I openly say I do expect an other Messias an other Redemer And I do not acknowledg your Christ to be the second Person of the Trinity And therefore I do hould that the Old Law being in force Circumcision is to beretayned NEWSERVS Michaeas the streame of the tymes ought not to beare downe the Truth Therefore seing in the Church of Christ the Predictions of the Prophetts aboue by Ochinus and my self fully alledged touching the enlargment the vninterupted Visibility and the incessant administration of the Word and Sacraments are not performed I here pronounce that Christ was not the true Messias but aseducer and that his Church is not the Church of God And more particulary for my self as continuing for euer in this my sentence I am resolued to goe to Constantinople and there as now beleuing in the law of Moyses I wil be circumcized Therefore Micheas content yourself and forbeare all further vehemency of speach against vs inâ—o which afore you did begin to enter but show in youâ— words greater temperanee and Patience MICHAEAS Patience Peace Prâ—digious men It is heare a Vertue to transgresse all bonds of Patience and but stupiditie not to be angry You Miscreants vnworthy to breath since you deny hym through whom you breath and vnwothy to enioye a being since you reiect hym who gaue you your Being presumptious Clay that dâ—â—est thus contest with thy maker Thinke you my Words shal be slowe in defence of hym who is the Word 〈◊〉 Verbum care factum est habitaâ—t in nobis No. I must speake I will speake Neuer neuer shall my eares be guilty of my Redemers blasphemies but that my Tonge to it vttermost power shall replye and in this feruour keepe me sweete Iesus to my last gaspe And I wil be ready to trumpet â—orth tâ—e disgrace and ignominye of you both throughout all Christendum Call you your former Religion The light of the Gospell which finally tendeth to put out the Light it selfe erat lux vera quae illuminat â—mnem hominem O that I had one of the coales of the holy â—ltar of God to seare your blafphemous tongues as the Seraphin by taking one of the coales thereof did purify the lipps of the Prophet Esay ô impiety of tymes in which such Munsters are bred worthy for feare of infecting others to be eliminated out of the Society of Men and to be relegated vnto some desart or Wildernes there to conuerse with Beasts since in sauadgnes of Nature you excede beasts you Batteyd Infidells that cannot endure the light of the Sun orietur Sol Iustitiae vnder what name do you expect Saluation Since there is not any other name vnder heauen giuen vnto Men then thaâ— of Iesus wherein we must be saued Cannot the Prophecyes of the Old Testament vpon which in other poynts you seeme so much to relye touching so many particularities of our Sauiours Birth Lyfe Passion and Resurrection the due consideration of all which I acknowledg first made me a Christian preuayle with you to confesse him for your Redâ—mer Since all those particulars were to be performed only in the true Messias and all of them haue beene actually performed in hym whom now you refuse The patration of infinit stupendious Miracâ—es exhibited not only by Iesus himselfe but by his Apostles and seruants may be able I should thinke being truly weighed to wash out this blot of your Infidelitie and to â—yle away the rust of this your misbelâ—ife ô England blushest not thou that after thy casting of thy primatiue fayth Ocbâ—nus was the Apostle by whose meanes and labour thou first did such Protestancy Is this he whose presence in those dayâ—s is said to make thee happy and whose absence vnfortunate and whom all Italy could not equall See to thy dishonour and his perdition what he is become A Iew a Turke an Apostaâ—a forsaking Christ and all Christianity and teaching Circumcition and polygamy or pluraliâ—ye of wyfes a doctrine where Sensuality diminisheth the pleasure of sence And thou Heâ—delberg at this present honored by hauinge trans-planted in thee so fayre a Rose ouâ— of the English garden Behould here once thy cheif Pastour Neuserus and now confessedly a cheife instrument of the deuill from whome as from one by supposall peculiarly illuminated by the Lord thou hearetoforâ— dist receaue thy spirituall nurrishmeÌ„t Whoâ—e Superintendency forsooth is not afrayd in the â—â—d openly to blaspheme against the Sauiouâ— of the World and to turne Turke and who hauing an vncircumcized hart will needs carye about with hym a circumcized body And Celebrious Oxford the goodâ—â—est skryne of the Muses vnder the Sunne how canst thou brooke that such impure Imps as these should breath thy pure ayre Or can thy worthy and noble Sonns eminently endued with all good lettars endure the sight of these Infideâ—ls Hadst thou afore bene perswaded that these two Monsters whose very Soules and bodyes Mans goastly Enemy seemes of late to organize would haue â—â—ulne into these blasphemyes no doubt thou wouldest c. D. REYNOLDS Stay Michaeas Proceede no further You haue spoken enough And I much commend your Christian feruour herein And I confesse it gaulingly vpbraids me to see any of my owne Religion thus to apostatate from the fayth of Christ And it is no small greife that this disputation first intended to make one Papist a good Protestant hath in lieu thereof made two Protestants two Iewes or Turks But yet Michaeas let not the seueritie of your Censure pase further then the fault extendeth It is only Ochinus and Neuserus and two though too many in reference to seuerall thousands is scare reputed a number who thus sinne Let not then the Gospell it selfe or any other Professours of it be insimulated by you within this atrocity and Cryme And you Oâ—hinus and Neuserus ô soyle not your selfs with this so foule an imputation But seing Wisdome only iudgeth of Wisdome and learning of learning so let your learning and Wisdome equally runne together to acknowledg him for your Redemer who is the source of all Wisdome learning and knowledge de plenitudinâ— eius omnes accepimus your Sinne is most heinous and dreadfull yet being attended hereafter with a true remorse and repentance is remissible and for your conforts remember that Paull the Apostle who once persecuted hym whom you now deny did expiate the
to your L. graue iudgment heerein and do willingly recalle my former mistaking in alledging the priuiledge of a stranger Yet I hope I rest excusable since not knowing but that it might stand in force I had no reason by not insisting vpon it at the first to be vniust to myne owne Innocency or to be slow in myne owne defence Now my L. to come to the obiected Offences Where first I must say that though an extraordinary Loue of Iustice doth sometymes cause Iniustice in the louer Yet no such effects do I feare in your L. since you are one who will impartially censure of Mens Actions as they are in themselfs and not as they are tragically amplified by the tongue of malice Touching then my accusations I must put your Lordship in minde that my Aduersaryes Serpentine not Prudence according to our Sauiours words but Subtilty hath in accusing of me so affectedly mingled together Truths with falshoods as that I can neither with one breath absolutely acknowledge all nor absolutly deny all Yf I say I haue not persuaded some Schollars of the Vniuersity to the Catholicke Roman Religion I do lye And if I do confesse that I haue diuulged to them any Positions of our Religion as supposed to contayne the seeds of disobedience and disloyalty to their Prince besides the vntruth thereof I should be false to myselfe and wrongfully become my owne Accuser Therefore to seuer and â—ane theese two different poynts one from the other know you most worthy Iudge that I do freely grant that during my stay in this your celebrious Vniuersity I haue moued diuers of the students to embrace our Catholicke and only true ReligioÌ„ And if it be theÌ„ an offence to persuade a Man to saue his soule I do heere acknowledge my selfe to be an offendour in this Kynd and shall receaue with comfort any imposed punishmeÌ„ts for the same But if it had been far better for one to haue lyed in euerlasting Informitye and Abis of Nothing then to enioye a Being and after to haue that Being for want of a true fayth and Religion in his Creatour to be punished with eternity of paynes I hope then we lyue not in those Canicular and vnluckly tymes but that the perswading by fayre and sweete meanes to the true fayth and religion shal be houlden if not as worthy of Commendacion yet at lest as exempt from blame and dislyke and the rather since Men are not to be forced by lawes to an erroneous fayth only for statesake Religionis non est cogere religionem quae spontè suscipi debeat non vi Touching the second poynt wherewith my aduersary too myld a word my Enemy chargeth me at this present that is that I should lye secret in the Vniuersity and labour by all meanes possible to plant in the Schollars iudgments such Theorems of doctryne as might breede disloyalty in their mynds It is a most false and calumnious imputation myselfe being therein as innocent as Innocency itselfe I know well that as on the one side nothing is more delicate then is the sense and feeling of an Estate so on the other I am assured that our Catholicke ReligioÌ„ is so far from approuing disloyalty as any Profession or Religion can be For it teacheth with the chiefe Apostle that we ought to be subiect to the King as excelling It surther instructed vs with the Apostle of the Gentills That we are to be subiect to higher powers seing there is no power but of God that Who resisteth the power resisteth the Ordinance of God and they that resist purchase to themselfs damnation Finally that we ought to be subiect euen of necessity and for conscience sake since such a Power beareth not his sword without cause Now our Religion teaching all this why should this Plantife out of his owne speculatiue and suspicious conceaâ—e like to a superfluous Comment which ascrybeth more to the Text then euer the Authour meaned soyle my innocent and cleere intentions with the aspersion of such a foule demeanour Therefore my L. since this is only storme which at this present cheifly showereth vpon my disgrace I hope that the radiant beames of Iustice through your L. meanes will be of force to discipate and dissolue it VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord these are the accustomed common places of mouths exhaling forth disloyalty I meane to plead innocency though neuer so faulty and to stuffe their excuse with tragicall phrases apt to stir vp a vulgar pitty But if this Man my L. who hath contaminated himselfe with so many foule breaches of Ciuill Hospitality which all men in all Nations most ceremoniously obserue may passe vnchastized then let vice expect to be rewarded and vertue punished But why do I labour so painfully to take the height of this his wicked action since it is a kind of errour ouer precisely to insist in proofe of most euident Truths as if doubt were here to be made either of your L. iudgment herein or of your Iustice the one being sufficiently warranted vnto vs by your long experience in this kind the other by your many examples of like Nature But to turne my words particularly to you Michaeas I pray you why must your stay in our Vniuersity be kept so close and secret after you gaue it out you would instantly depart Belike you thought the more retyredly you liued from the eye of vs all the greater conceate would be had of your presumed Worth and so your followers might keepe you as a treasure reserued to themselues you imitating herein Diogenes who became the more eminent in regard of his affected obscurity MICHAEAS O M. Vice-Chancelour do not thus betrample vpon old age and calamity neither lay a further weight of digrace by your forgeryes vpon him whom misery and yeares haue almost prostrated euen with the earth Neither seeke to enlarge my faults with your more greiuous fault And where you inuest my priuat retyringe in your Vniuersity with a veyle of a desired emminency I must replye that I am as far from all such elation and pryde of mynd as your selfe is from all charitable censuring of me For I do acknowledge my selfe to be a meane and deâ—ected Old Man and do ascrybe all glory height and honour to hym who is celsitudo humilium And who being only supreme doth most delight in those who are the lowest And this deseruedly since we find by experience that who are most poore in Spirit are commonly most rich in the guyfts of the Spirit L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE M. Vicech I would haue you to descend to the particular doctrines of disloyalty broached by Michaeas in your Vniuersity for as yet both your words haue bene spent only in discoursing and äery generalityes And they are particulars only of which the law taketh hould for since the punishment prescrybed by the Law is particular it followeth that the offence must also be particular Therefore show in such and such a poynt with
Word and vse of the Sacraments as Notes And thus they reiecting all former Catholicke Notes do reduce as aboue is said the determining of which is the true Church to the inappealable and last Resort of their owne priuate opinions passed vpon the true preaching of the Word and the due administration of the Sacraments But now to come to the Question it selfe touching these Protestant Notes Where the â—eader for the more cleare setting downe of the state of the Question and his owne better instruction is to conceaue first that these Protestant Notes supposing them to be Notes of the Church prooue only the place where the Church is but not which is the Church Which here is only the Question Secondly the Reader is to call to mind that whereas a Note may be of two sorts The one in respect of Nature the other in respect of vs according to the doctrine of the learned Protestants themselues thus teaching Nottus est duplex Vnum Naturae vlterum nobis that here the Question is only of such Notes as are Notes in respect of vs for our better informing which is the true Church since here we are instructed à postartori and according to the measure of that knowledg which God vouchsafes to affoard to vs. And not as they are Notes in respect of Nature Which Notes in regard of Nature are euer 〈…〉 sicall secret and often essentiall to the thing of which they are Notes Now in reference hereto we freeâ—y grant that the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments may be tearmed Notes of the Church but not Notes to vs which is the only point now isluable for though they be Notes in Nature of the true Church yet what anayleth it vs since they are not Notes to vs for our direction to find which is the true Church And here we are to remember that the Question is not what kind of Notes or what kind of knowledge is better for it is granted that scire per Causas is most perfect and noble but the Question is what kind of knowledge God is content to imparte to vs in this life for the attayning of the Mysteryes of our fâ—â—th and particularly for the knowing searching out which is his Church Now that the true preaching of the Word and vse of the Sacraments cannot be erected as notes of Christs Church I euer meane in respect of vs is seuerall wayes demonstrated And first this I prooue from the Nature of a Note which is euer to be of a greater perspicuity and clearnes and better knowne to vs then the thing is of which it is a Note Since otherwise it should follow an inference both in reason and Art most absurd that that which is vnknowne should be prooued by an other thing which is lesse knowne anâ— more obscure That the true preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments which is but a necessary 〈◊〉 to the true preaching of the Scripture are more obscure and vnknowne to vs then is the Church I prooue first from the Scripture which teacheth that true sayth which is the effect of true preaching the Word proceedeth only from the Ministery of the Church according to that how shall they beleiue whom they haue not heard and ho 〈…〉 sh aâ— they heare without a Preacher Thus Gods sacred Word we see doth presuppose that the Minister who is the member of the Church and consequently it followeth hereby that the Church must be afore knowne doth reueale vnto vs the true sense of the Scripture And therefore Caluin thus well sayth of this point Deus potest memo 〈…〉 sues perficere nolit tamen eos adolâ—scere in 〈…〉 ilem â—tatem nisi educatione Ecclesiae God can peâ—fect and instruct vs in a moment meaning touching fayth yet he will not bring vs to any manlike as it were and perfect strength therein but by the help and labâ—ur of the Church And hence it is that in all Controuersyes touching fayth we are alwayes for the determining of them botâ— in the iudgments of the auncient Fathers and learned Protestants referred to the Church Among whom I cannot here pretermit the sentence of D. Field thus wryting Seeing tâ—e Controuersies in our tyme are growne in number so many and in nature so intricate c. What remayneth for meâ— dâ—sirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but deligeâ—tly to search out which among all the societyes of Men in the World is that blessed Company of Holy Ones that house-hould of fayth that spouse of Christ and Church of the living God which is the pillar and ground of truth that so they m 〈…〉 follow her directions and reâ—i in her 〈◊〉 Thus we are instructed by this learned Protestant to know which is the true fayth in all Controuersyes and sincere 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Word from the Church and not to know which is the Church from the sincere preaching of the Word Secondly that the true prea 〈…〉 of the Word and the vse of the Sacrements â—re more ob 〈…〉 and difficult to vs to be knowne then to know 〈◊〉 is the true Church appeareth from the voluntâ—â—y acknowledgments of our most iudicious Aduersaries For greater 〈◊〉 heareiâ— I will insist only in oâ—e or two And to omit the answearable iudgment hearto of D. Fyeld potentially included in his 〈…〉 met words We do fynd Iustus Molitor a learned Protestant and Aduersary in his 〈…〉 gs to Cardinal Beâ—lâ—rmyâ—e thus to confes Nobis Quo ad iud 〈…〉 s â—o fâ—sâ— alâ— qua notitià prius vera Eccles 〈…〉 quam 〈◊〉 praedicatio 〈…〉 oâ—escit c. The true Church by a cert 〈…〉 co 〈…〉 〈◊〉 so 〈…〉 kâ—oâ—ne to vs according to the iudgment of reâ—son then the preaching of the true word is knowne With whom c 〈…〉 pireth in exprâ—s Words the foresaid mentioned 〈…〉 testart Lubbertus thus wryting Sacramenta in v 〈…〉 nt nobis m 〈…〉 quam â—psa Ecclesia The true vse of the 〈…〉 ments iâ— lesse knowne â—o vs 〈◊〉 the Church And 〈◊〉 geueth his â—eason hereof in these Words Nobis notioâ—a su 〈…〉 externa signaâ—per quae remâ— quâ—â—doque cogn 〈…〉 The external signes are more man 〈…〉 st 〈◊〉 vâ— by which we know a thiâ—g 〈◊〉 heareby impâ—ying that the true administration of the word Sacraments is internal and inward in respect of the true externall Notes of the Church For although eich preaching of the Word and vse of Sacraments be externall and subâ—ect to the outward Sense yet which is the true preaching of the word and true administration of the Sacraments for as they are purely preached and sincerely administred so and no otherwise are they appoynted by the Protestants for the Marks of the Church is internal since truth in doctryne is internal and inuisible We may ad hearto that in the note of true preaching the word the beliuing receauing it so preached this with perseuerance is included
refuge enforced to compart hearein with the very Anâ—baptists fleeing for the interpreting of the Scripture to the testimony of Gods Spirit and immediate instruction of the Holy Ghost Sortably hearto we find that the foresaid D. Whitakers to reâ—er others to the Margent thus wryteth Omnes linguarum imperiti c. Al those who are ignorant in the tongues though they cannot â—udge of places whether they be truly translated or not yet they apprâ—â—e and allowe the doctrine being instructed by the Holy Ghost Thus he O you sensles Galatians who haue bewitched you For may not any â—obler Wibstar or other Mecanical fellow as by experience we daily find they do flee to this refuge for their interpreting of scripture at ouching themselfs in the interpretation thereof to be peculiarly enlightned with the spirit and instruction of the Holy â—ho 〈…〉 Which being granted what Heresies so absurd which these ignorant fellowes will not attempt to mantayne And thus far to proue that the true preaching of the word and a due administration of the Sacraments which resulteth as aboue is said by sequele out of the former Note of true preaching cannot be appoynted as Notes to vs for our direction to finde out the true Church of Christ within which we are bound vnder payne of eternall damnation to implant our selses I will suâ—uect to thâ— Premisses this pertinent aâ—imaduersion following It is this When the Catholicks do demand the Protestants to set downe certaine Notes of the true Church And they answeâ—riâ—g that that Church is the true Church which enjoyeth a true preaching of the Word and a due and auayleable administration of the Sacraments Now heare I auer that this description of Notes is but our owne question reâ—urâ—ed vs back in other tearms and consequently but a Sophisme â—â—nsistiâ—g in an idle circulation of the same poynt inâ—ested with a new forme of words For when I demand which is the true Church I vertually implicitly and according to the immediate meaning of my Words demauÌ„d which Church is that which enioyeth the true preaching of the Word and the true vse of the Sacraments since only the true Church is honored with this Kynd of preaching and distribution of Sacraments The Protestants then answearing that that is the true Church whearein are foâ—d the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments do they not giue me back my owne Question varyed in other phrazes being no other thing in sense then to say That Church which enioyeth the true preaching of the word due vse of the Sacraments is that Church which enâ—â—yeth the true preaching of the Word and due vse of the Sacraments Most absurde being but Demonstratio eiusdem per Idem iustly exibilated out of all schooles Heare now I will end this first part of this Question of the Protestants Notes of the Church Admonishing the Reader of one thing to wit that whereas S. Austin and other Doctours do say that out of the Scriptures we learne which is the Church This is so to be vnderstood that we are able to proue from the scripture wheare the Church is but this not as from a Note of the Church which is the poynt only heare issuable but only because the scripture teacheth which are the Notes of the Church in teaching of what nature and quality the Church ought to be In this next place we will handle the foresaid question Hypotetically and by supposall only That is we will imagin for the tyme that the true preaching of the Word and due administration of the Sacraments are the Notes of the Church to vs. To this end we will call to mynd what diuers learned Protestants do teach hearein Caluin thus saith Pastoribus Doctoribus earere nunquam potest Ecclesia c. The Church can neuer want Pastours and Doctours to preach the Word and administrâ—r the Sacraments Doctour Fyeld confirmeth the same in these words The ministery of Pastours and teachers is absolutly and essentially necessary to the being of a Church Briefly Doctour Whitakers affirme That the said Notes being present do constitute a Church being absent do subuert it Now all this being granted I confidently auer that the force thereof doth most dangerously recoyle vpon our Aduersaries since it irrephably proueth that the Protestant Church hath bene contrary to the Nature of the true Church at seuerall tymes or rather for seuerall ages together wholy extinct and annihilated Sine during many ages it hath bene vterly voyde depryued of Pastours and Doctourr to preache the Word and administer the Sacraments That the Protestant Church hath during so many reuolutions of yeres absolutely wanted all Pastours and Doctours to preach the word and dispence the Sacraments is euicted in generall from the confessed Inuisibility of the ProtestaÌ„t Church for many Ages concerning which subiect I refer the Reader to the perusing of the Second part of the Conuerted â—ew out of which I will discerpe certaine Confessions of the learned Protestants First then Sebastianu Francus a Protestant heretofore alledged thus wryteth For certayne through the worke of Antichrist the externall Church together with the fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departuâ—e and for these thousand foure hundred yeres the Church hath bene no wheare externall and visible D. Parkins in lyke sort thus confesleth We say that before the dayes of Luther for many hundred yeres an Vniuersall Apostasy ouerspred the whole face of the earth and that our Church was not then visible to the World In regard of which confessed latency of the Protestant Church Caluin had iust reason as presuming his owne Brethrens preaching of the Word to be true thus to say Factum est vt aliquot secul spura Verbi praedicatio euenuerit c. It was brought to passe that the pure preaching of the Word of God did vanish away for the space of certaine ages The perspicuity of which poynt I meane of the inuisibility of the Protestant Church in former ages will more easely appeare if we insist for Example but in the ryme immediatly before Luthers Apostasy of what tyme it is thus confessed by D. Iewell as taking his doctryne to be the truth The Truth was vnknowne at that tyme and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Hulderick Swinglius first came vnto the knowledg and preaching of the Ghospell Thus we see that the acknowledged Inuisibility of the Protestant Church demonstratiuely prooueth the want of the former Protestant Notes to wit the preaching of the Word and Administration of the Sacraments during all the tyme of the said granted in Visibility And that therefore the Protestants haue much endangered themselfs assigning the said Notes for the Notes of the true Church Now that the setting downe of the forsaid Notes do make for vs Catholicks is no lesse cleare then the former poynt for seing it is granted that Pastours and Doctours must be in the Church till the
His staying in the graue three dayes Ionas 2. His Resurrection Psalm 15. and 132. His AsceÌ„tiâ—n Psalm 109. Finally to omitt diuers other lesser passages The descending of the Holy Ghost Ioel. 2. Thus in regard of their Premisâ—es I do fully acknowledg that in him and by him our Law which did serue but to shadow this time of Grace is now abrogated and therfore my selfe as conuinced with so many irrefragable demonstratioÌ„s of the trueth of your Chistian Religion do hereby submit my selfe to the sweet yoake of Christ do confesse my selfe to be in Iudgment and beleefe a Christian though as yet but an analogicall and halfe Christian and with reference to the time of the Law and the time of Grace and the adumbration of the one in the other I thinke I may not vnfitly style the different state of those two times The Euangelicall Law and the Leuiticall Ghospell since the Law is but the Ghospel Prophesied the Gohspel the Law complet and actually performed CARDINALL BELLARMINE LEarned Rabby I much reioyce at your change in Religion and indeed that precise correspondency which your selfe haue obserued betweene the Old TestameÌ„t and the New wherby you may se the Apostle had iust reason to say Omnia in figura contingebant illis is of force to corroborate and strengthen you in our Christian Faith against all those spirituales nequitiae or any other contrary assaults For now you se that the Maske or vayle of all your legall Sacrifices and Ceremonies is taken away through the perfect consummation of them in our Lord and Sauiour Therefore giue thanks to God for this your illumination and confesse with the chiefe Apostle That there is no other name vnder Heauen then that of Iesus giuen vnto Men wherein we may be saued D. WHITAKER It is most true which my Lord Cardinall hath said for Iesus Christ is the second person in the most blessed and indiuisible Trinity who was made Man to repaire the losse of the first Man who died to the end we should not dye Christus semel oblatus est ad multorum exhaurtenda peccata hauing humbled himselfe being made obedient vnto death euen the death of the Crosse for which thing God hath exalted him and hath giuen him a name which is aboue all Names that in the name of Iesus euery knee should bow of things in Heauen in Earth and vnder the earth Therefore he is to be your cornerstone wherupon you are to build all the spitituall edifice of your Soules Saluation And comfort your selfe Micheas with this that though only the Isralits did put Christ to death yet only a true Isralite is a true Christian MICHEAS All this I constantly beleeue But now at my first embracing of Christian Religion one maine difficulty doth mightely affrnot me I se you Christians though you do all militate vnder on supreme Captaine yet through your many Controuersies in Religion do rest deuided amongst your selues like so many distracted and disordered troupes or sqadroÌ„s not affording Saluation on to an other soe as from whence I am departed I do well know but what part to follow I am most vncertaine And though I firmly beleeue that without faith in Christ a man cannot be saued yet withall I as cnnstaÌ„tly beleeue that on beleeuing only in grosse in Christ shall not be saued Now here I se the Catholicke to condeme the ProtestaÌ„t for his destroying and taking away many Articles of Christian Religion to wit the Doctrine of Free-will of Purgatory of Praying to Saincts of Merit of workes and to omit many other controuerted points the Reall Presence in the Eucharist and Sacrafice of the Alter and for such proceeding doth anathematize him for an Heretick The Protestant on the other side for the Catholicke his mantaining and beleeuing the said points doth style him Superstitious Idolatrous and as on wholy exempt from all hope of Saluation And in these matters the iudgments of the Protestant and the Catholicke are so meerely contrary the one constantly affirming the other peremptorily denying as that their discording beleefes can neuer be wonn vp in any one publick confession or Creede Here now my deuided Soule licke the dissressed prisoner who hauing broken the Iaile knoweth not what way to flie for his best refuge tossed in the waues of such contrary Doctrines is ignorant towards what shoore to saile if I be a Protestant I can be no Catholicke If a Catholicke I am no Protestant The on I can but be both I cannot be That threatens to me the brand of Heresy this of SuperstitioÌ„ and Idolatry O God that the fragrant rose of Christian Religion should be thus beset on all sides with the sharpe pricks of these vnpleasing disagreements But this forceth me to remember those words of an auncient doctour Vt in pessimis aliquid boni sic in optimis nonnihil mali CARDINALL BELLARMINE True it is that there are many differences in Christian Religion and each good mans greife is hereby the greater for wheras contention in other things raiseth the estimation and valew of them contention about Faith in a vulgar eye lesneth it But these you are to conceiue Micheas take their course not from the Faith of Christ for it is but one vna fides vnum baptisma but from the Elation and height of priuat Iudgments which blush not to aduance themselues aboue all Authorities both Deuine and Humane Therfore Micheas the better to free you from all those laborinths of opinion which otherwaise may more easily illaquiate and intangle you build your Faith in all inferiour points of Christian Religion principally vpon Gods sacred Word as it is propounded and interpreted by Christ his Church and to her repaire in all your doubts since Christ himselfe hath vouchsafed to warrant this proceeding in these words dic Ecclesiae et Ecclesiam non audieret sit tibi sicut Ethnicus et Publicanus Reuerence Eclesiasticall Traditions which are deriued through a continued hand of time euen from the Apostles Id ab initio quod ab Apostolis for it is true that we Catholicks do beleeue some things without Scripture but it is as true that all Sectaries beleeue their Errours against Scripture Read the Generall Councels with whome Christ is euer present for he hath promised when but two or three are geathered togeather in his name much more when seuerall hundreds he well be in the middest with them and obserue the Heresies condemned in them Peruse the writings of the Primatiue Fathers and remember that sentence Interroga de diebus antiquis assuring your selfe that the Doctrine ioyntly taught by them is agreable to the Faith first taught by Christ and his Apostles Finally square your Religion according to the vninterrupted practise of Gods Church which the Apostle himselfe for our greater security hath honored with the title of Columna et Firmamentum veritatis And thus you shall forbeare to imitate those men who thinke to
they may safely adioyne themselues D. Field conspireth with al the former Protestants thus saying The persons of them of whom the Church consisteth are Visible their profession knowne euen to the prophane and wiched of the world And in this sort the Church cannot be Inuisible Thus this Doctour preuenteth the answere of those who say the Church is Visible but to the Elect only The said D. Field thus reprehendeth Cardinal Bellarmine touching this point saying It is true that Bellarmine laboreth in vaine in proouing that there is and alwayes hath bene a Visible Church and that not consisting of some few scattered Christians without Order of Ministry or vse of Sacraments for all this wee do most willingly yeeld vnto how soeuer perhaps some few haue bene otherwise of Opinion But for great breuity and ommitting the like confessions herein of other remarkable Protestants D. Humfrey shall close vp this scene who enthereth into heate and passion with his Aduersaries for needelesly prouing the Churches euer Visibility For thus he writeth Cur ergo anxiè curiosè probant quod est a nobis numquam negatum Why do they meaning the Catholicks so painfully and curiously proue that which we neuer denyed And then after the said Doctour Non enim clancularij secessus conuocationes sunt Christianae the society of Christians are not secret meetings And then there againe speaking of the Church militant Oportet Ecclesiam esse conspicuam Conclusio est clarissima It is a manifest Conclusion that the Church is to be conspicuous and Visible And thus farre Gentlemen of your owne Brethren confessing with vs Catholicks the euer Visibility of the Church of God And this in so full a manner as that the wicked as D. Fyeld aboue speaketh shall take full notice and sight of it by force of which cleare testimonies those few and ignorant Protestants who confesse the Church to be Visible but not in so full a maner are preuented of their poore refuge saying The Church is Visible but not at all tymes as if the Church like the Sea enioyed a flux and reflux of it Visibility knowne but knowne only to the Elect and faythfull phantastically spoken without al colour of proofe and mainly crossing not only their owne more learned Brethren but also most repugnant to the formery mentioned Propheces of Gods sacred word and other passages thereof to the graue authority of the Primatiue Fathers and finally to al force of reason it selfe D. REYNOLDS Wee see Michaeas you are very conuersant in our owne Writers And now I hope this first point is perfected Whereupon the force of the future discourse is to relye And though thē be some difficulty to crye downe an errour or false opinion in doctrine once aduanced Neuerthelesse I trust no learned iudicious Man perusing the former authorities at large will euer dreame of an Inuisible Church being in it selfe a meere intentional Notion and hauing no subsistence or being MICHAEAS M. Doctour you say truly But now seeing it is in this next place properly incumbent vpon you and these two graue men to instance in Protestants for all ages since Christ for the Church of Christ by your owne former doctrine necessarily exacteth such a Visibility I hould it conuenient to put you al in minde of two or three points the due consideration of which may much induce to the discouery of the weaknes of such Instances which as my thoughts presage wil be hereafter insisteth vpon by you NEVSERVS You do well Michaeas to set downe those premonitions for we desire that if there shal be any defect in the future examples it may be fully displayed Therefore proceed in your Method MICHAEAS The first then of these any maduersions may be to obserue the wounderful reluctation and backwardnesse in some Protestants a manifest signe of their owne guilty defectiuenesse herein when this Catholicks presse them to giue instances of Protestancy and of the administration of the word and Sacrements For seing they wil beare men in hand that their Church hath euer continued Visible they are therefore in reasons it selfe bound as mantayning the affirmatiue part to vndertake the proose thereof Now answearably to my former Assertion I finde D Wutton speaking to his Catholicke Aduersary thus to write you wilt say shew vs where the fayth and Religion you professe where held Nay proue you that they were held no where c. And what if it could not beshewed yet we know by the articles of our Creede that there hath bene alwayes a Church in which we say this religion we professe must of necessity be held c. This stands vpon you to disproue which when you do by particular Records you shall haue particular answere Then which what can be spoken first more absurdly as expecting records of things which neuer were in being He furthermore transferring the part of prouing vpon Catholicks to which himselfe and his fellowes only stand obliged Secondly what can discouer more their vnablenessein guing examples of Protestancy during the former ages The like dispairing Answere D Fulke vseth vpon the same point saying to his Aduersary Proferre me iubes teto orbe latitantes vah quam iniquum postulas Thou willest me to produce and name those which did lye secret through out the World how iniust a thing dost thou here demand The second Obseruation Seing the Church of God is at al times and seasons without the least discontinuance thereof to be Visibile and to enioy a publike administration of the Word and Sacraments as aboue we al haue proued That therefore such Instances of Protestancy which may be giuen by you hereafter supposing them to be true do but iustify Visibility of your Church only for so long no longer as the said Protestants did liue And therefore except you be able to produce examples of Protestancy for al ages since Christ if you do fayle herein but for any one only age it necessarily followeth that Church of the Protestants as wanting this vninterrupted Visibility is not the Church of Christ described in the old Testament and their prophecyed of in so many different places The third and last Obseruation That one may truly and iustly be called a Protestant two things among others must necessatily concurre The one that he do mantayne al the chiefest points of Protestancy Thus he is not to hould only some few points of Protestancy and in the rest being more in number and of greater importance to pertake with the Catholicks seeing such a Man is rather as beleiuing more Articles of Catholicke Religion then of Protestancy to be reputed a Catholicke then a Protestant for his denomination is to be giuen him rather according to the greater and weightier number of Articles beleeued by him ther otherwise though to speake the truth such a Man so beleeuing is formally neither Catholicke not Protestant The second thing necessary to the being of a Protestant is that he doth not hould pertinaciously any
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
they vsed speakind of Knox and his Confederats that poore Lady my Mother is not vnknowne and with greife I may remember it Touching Geâ—enna Goneuâ— I would say but the mistaking is not great since what the one teacheth the other punisheth We find that D. 〈…〉 lâ—ste thus truly writeth They of eneua did depose their Liegt Lord who was Catholicke Prince from his temporall right albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lord and owner of that Citty and Territorie Which whom conspireth D. Bancroft thus wryting hereof The Citizens of Geneua receauing some good encour agement meaning from Caluin and such others I doubt not tooke vpon them the endeauouring of altering Religion and omitted not the occasion offered of changing also the Estate of the Commonwealth In this next place the 〈…〉 ow Countryes affoard a greater euidency and demonstration of this point For Oâ—iander a most eminent Protestant thus woundeth his owne Professours The Low Countreyes by publike wryting renounced all obedience and subiection to Philip their Lord and King c. When foure hundred of them men of good ranke had sued for tolleration in religion and did not preuayle the impatient People stirred vp with fury at Antwerp and other places of Holland Zâ—land and Pladders threw and broake downe images c. The y subiects of those Countreyes tooke armes against the Magistrate and made the Prince of Orange their Gouernour A truth in like sort confessed by D. Sarauia in these words They of the Low Countryes did ouerthrow and spoyle temples and monasteryes with Monks Bishops and the whole popish Cleargy against the mind of the cheife Magistrate and promâ—se giuen Finally Crispinus the Protestant and the foresaid Osiander do relate that one Petrus Dathenus and other cheife Protestants of Gauâ—t did stir vp in the yere 1587. the Ciâ—tizens to cast all the Masse Priests as they speake and Monks out of the Citty and to place their goods in the Treasury Next let vs come to France What ciuill Warrs haue beene raized by the Protestants during the space of forty yeares togeather till the last King Henry the fourth made himselfe Catholicke only for their Religion against their Catholicke Kings and Princes Many historyes are become the subiect thereof only I will content my selfe with discerning some few testimonyes and confessions of the Protestants heerein And first may occuâ—re the battayle of Dreux wherat Beza himselfe was present vndertaken only for the aduancement of the Protestant Religion and of which Battayle Beza thus writeth The Nobility of France vnder the noble Prince of Condy layd the foundation of the restoring true Religion in France by consecrating most happily their bloud to God in the battayle of Dreux In like sort we thus reede in a Protestant booke entituled The generall Inuentory of the History of France and translated into English by Ed. Grimston The Protestants of Meaux transported with indiscreete zeale grounded vpon their numbers did fly to the Churches beate downe images and make the Priests retyre And againe Beza preaching at Grenoble Charters and Orleans with his sword and pistoll in his hand exhorted the people to show their manhood rather in killing the Papists then in breaking Images And yet more The Protestants to wit anno 1567. being first armed were in the beginning maysters of the field c. The King being incensed agaynst them was at Meâ—ux and preparing to celebrate the feast of S. Michael the Prince of Condy approaching with fiue hundred horse by this attempt forced the King to retyre with some amazement to Paris And yet further The Prince of Condy and the Admirall kept S. Denis S. Owen and Auberuilliers to curbe Paris The Constable the Kings Lieutenant gathered an Army whereupon bartayle eâ—sued c. Which Authour of the aforementioned Inuentory of France relateth many more occurrents of those matters which here for breuity are omitted But to proceede further touching the Country of France Osiander the foresaid Protestant recordeth this matter in these words The Protestants vnder colour of exhibiting a Confession of their fayth came armed to the Kings palace c. That ciuill warre for Religion was renewed the Prince of Condy being Generall of those of the reformed Churches and the Constable Generall of the Kings Army That the Constable being slayne in these warres the Kings Brother supplyed his place To conclude this point of the Prince of Condy his rebellion herein It is so euident vndeniable that Crispinus a Protestant thus writeth hereof After many messages though in vayne sent by the King to the protestant Princes the warre beganne againe For the Prince of Condy rose vp in armes and swore not to leaue them vnder whose protestation this sentence was placed Deo victricibus armis This lamentable subiect of Protestant Subiects rysing against their Catholicke Princes hath busied my tongue very long Therefore I passe ouer how in Basil a cheife Citty in Heluetia a great dissention did ryse betweene the Burgâ—sses certaine of the Senatours for cause of Religion only as Crispinus relateth And how the Burgesses hauing taken armes forced the others to agree to what they demanded and thereupon they did cast downe Images and how twelue Senatours fauoring our Catholicke Religion were cast out of the Senate and how the Masse was first by these meanes abandoned throughout all that Sâ—gnory Also I pretermit the dolefull passages of this nature practized in Sweâ—eland of which Country Cythreus a Protestant thus relateth Sigismond being King of Sweueland by hereditary succession was constrayned to giue his assent that none should beare office in that Kingdome but such only meaning Protestants as retayned the Confession of Augusta He further saith thus They forced the King to content himselfe with exercise of his Catholicke Religion in his owne Chappell A truth so well knowne confessed that Osiander thus speaketh of it in generall tearmes The Protestants of Sweueland did decree that the exercise of Popish Religion should be banished out of all parts of that Kingdome c. Finally I passe ouer with a gentill â—uche what the Kingdome of Palonia hath suffered in this kynd of which poynt the foresaide Protestant Osiander thus writeth Certaine of Polonia did out of an vntymely zeale expell their Priests with great violence and sedition without expecting permission as the said Authour confesseth of the Kinge Thus far most worthy Iudge I haue proceeded contrary to the byas of myne owne naturall disposition in relation of these lamentable I lyads as I may tearme them but I am to be pardoned since the vpbrading importunity of M. Vice-Chancelour did compell me thearto from which former Examples we may gather that for diuers yeres past most Nations of Christendome haue become the sable and mournfulle Theaters or stages whereupon so many blouddy Tragedyes haue bene acted or rather the very shambles whearein haue bene
Brother because an Oâ—pring was then begotteÌ„ of that former Mariadg to wit the daughter of Herodiades who so pleased the King with dansing that she obtayned the heade of S. Iohn Baptist That this daughter was the daughter of Herodiades begotte by the Brother of Herod is acknowledged by the testimony of Chrisostome Secondly I further answeare to this example of Herod that the sinne of Herod was not only Incest but also adultery since Herod did marye the wyfe of his Brother he being yet liuing as S. Ierom witnesseth out of auncient historyes and Iosephus auerreth the same Thus far then of this poynt to show that all the Precepts of Leâ—iticus touching the prohibited degrees in Mariadg are not commanded by the law of Nature and that they do not oblige Christians by diuine Law for the euer obseruing of them But that some of them are in themselfs dispensable And consequently that the Church of Christ may vpon most vrgent Occasions sometymes dispense with some of the said Precepts Now heare then appeareth the inconsidrate and rash obloqâ—y of our Aduersaries charging the Pope that he teaching Mariadg to be a Sacrament consequently by his owne doctrine vndertaketh and presumeth to alter the Matter or Essentiall parts of a Sacrament which was first instituted by Christ and therefore inaltorable by Man To which false aspertion I answeare that neither the Pope nor the Church can change the essentiall parts of this or any other Sacrament for we are heare to conceaue that the Matter of this Sacrament is not the ioyning together of euery Man or woman since then this Sacrament might be perfected betweene the Father and the Daughter but only the ioyning together of Lawfull persons Now which are lawfull persons for Mariadg Christ did not appoint or set downe but only a humane Contract betweene lawfull persons being presupposed Christ himselfe did aduance this coniunction to the dignity of a Sacrament Therefore the Church or the Pope doth only determine who are to be accounted Lawfull Persons for the contracting of mariadge And in this sort the Church doth only prepare the Matter or foundation fitting for this Sacrament But doth not nor can alter and change the essentiall parts of the Sacrament of Mariadge And herewith I conclude this short discours touching this subiect That the Catholicks do not expunge out of Gods writ or reiect those words in the Decalogue Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. But that they willingly acknowledge them as part of the Decalogue howsoeuer they be not sometymes set downe in Cathechisâ—es and Primars VVHereas the Protestants do charge the Catholicks to conceale through their affected fraud in their Catechisâ—nes and Primars one commandement and so to expunge it out of Holy Writ To wit Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image nor the likenesse of anything aboue in Heauen or on earth beneath neyther of those things which are in the waters vnder the earth Thou shalt nor adore them or worship them c. This I say is eyther a fraudulent or an ignorant mistaking of our Aduersaries For the truth is those words heere recited do but make one and the same Commandement with those first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me these later being but a more full explication of the first words and consequently may be omitted sometimes in a short numbering or setting downe of the Commandements This is thus prooued Euery Image is not prohibited in the Decalogue or ten Commandements but only that which may be truly called an Idoll that is an Image which is taken for God or which representeth God to be that thing which God is not Therefore when it is sayd Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image c. the exteriour Act of Idolatry is forbidden But in those first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me the internall Act of Idolatry is prohibited Of which point most at large Saint Austin discourseth Now that Images are not absolutely forbidden by the law of God appeareth in that the Scripture telleth vs that God himselfe commanded Images to be made According heere to we reade in the booke of Kings that God commanded the Images of the Cherubins Lyons and Oxen to be made In the Booke of Numbers the brazen serpent And in Exodus the Images of the Cherubin to be made From whence we may infallibly conclude that the making of Images is not absolutely forbidden by God as a distinct precept from the first but only so farre forth as the Images be taken for God and consequently that as is aboue said these words forbidding the making of Images do but make one the same Commandement with the first words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me And therefore the Catholicks do not fraudulently conceale one of the ten Commandements as our Aduersaryes do in their Pulpits tragically complaine Againe Yf all Images should be absolutly prohibited in the former words of the Decalogue then should it follow that the Precepts of the Decalogue should not be only ten but eleuen or twelue an inference incompatible with the Scripture it selfe which in expresse words teacheth that there are but ten Commandements The necessity of this Inference is thus prooued It is granted on all sides that those words Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me is one Precept That thou shalt not take the name of God in vayne is an other A third Thou shalt keepe holy the Saboath day A fourth Honour thy Father and thy Mother A fift Thou shalt not kill A sixt Thou shalt not commit adultery A seauenth Thou shalt not steale An eight Thou shalt not beare falfe witnesse against thy neighbour A ninth Thou shalt noâ— couet c. Now that Thou shalt not couet c. is eyther to be deuyded into two precepts so as the ninth Precept shal be Thou shalt not couet thy neighbours wife the tenth Thou shalt not coâ—ct thy neighbours Oxe nor his Asse nor any thing that is his Or els those word Thou shalt not couet c. with all the words following to wit his Wife his Oxe his Asse or any thing that is his do make but one precept or Commandement Yf they ought to be deuided into two then followeth it that those words Thou shalt not make any grauen â—mage c. shal be the eleuenth Commandement contrary to the Scripture or that this is not a distinct precept froÌ„ the first videlicet Thou shalt not haue any other Gods before me As Clemens Alexander Saint Austin all schoolemen and Latin Catechismes do teach And then it followeth that not euery grauen Image is forbidden in these words but only that which is taken for an other God Now if supposing further that that thou shalt not couet c. be only one Precept as some other fathers do hould then to make vp the tenth Commandement all those words Thou shalt not
Apostles and consequently that I contrary to your L. supposall do heere instruct the Academians in the same fayth and Religion which first florished in those primatiue tymes Now that neuer any change was made at Rome in poynts of fayth and Religion your Lordship may be fully satisfyed by perusing the former Dialogue betweene the Honorable Cardinall and Doctour Whitakers VICE-CHANCELOVR My Lord. Michaeas will tyre you with his wearisome speeches and if you would suffer him will perorate whole dayes togeather for he hath a peculiar deliuery of himselfe in seeking to decline his accusations by framing his tedious discourses touching the supposed honour of his owne Religion wholy impertinent to that for which he now stands arraigned Therefore to cut off all such exhorbitancyes of speeches I now in your L. presence to the greater accumulation of his former crymes do in this last place accuse him of being a Popish Priest a pernicious state of Men and such as your Lordship well knowes is incompatible with the Lawes of our Realme Thus we may obserue how the ouershadowing Prouidence of God hath disposed in these matters that if by supposall his former faults might passe vncorrected yet this last breaketh through the bounds of all Commiseration and Pitty Therefore your L. may do well to examyne him strictly hereof and cause him to answere without any reserued sense of equiuocation the peculiar Dialect of the Papists in like cases L. CHEIFE-IVSTICE Perceaue you not heere Michaeas how in your accusation one cryme is euer at the backe of an other like waues following one another till they all ouerflow and ouerwhelme you You are heere lastly accused to be one of that state of Men I meane a Romish Priest which are insufferable in our Nation and whom as guilty of many foule transgressions our Lawes do most seuerely punish Tell me therefore directly whether you be a Priest or no. MICHAEAS Sweete Iesus what sallyes of Malice hath your tongue M. Vice-Chancelour made in this your long Processe of my accusation First by charging me with reall disobedience to the supreme Magistrate then with penning the foresaid Catholicke Treatises and now for the close of all with being a Priest Where I see howsoeuer my cause be good yet I must be reputed Euill But leauing that and to answere to my Lords last Question Since then I am demaunded thereof I will not conceale my greatest honour I grant I am a Catholicke and Roman Priest created by the reuerend hand of the most illustrious and learned Bellarmine But is the very name of a Priest though otherwise not to be charged with any fault so distastfull in this place Or shall it be at any tyme heere asked Cur de solo nomine punitis facta Your Lordshipps iudgment no dowbt would hearein be altered if so you would vouchsafe to take into your Consideration the antiquity of the holy Order of Pryesthood since our Sauiour hymselfe was the first Priest in the tyme of Grace typically adumbrated by that of Melchisadech Tu es Sacerdos socundum ordinem Melchisadech Of which poynt the goldentonged Father thus wryteth Videns typum cogita oro veritatem Thus Christ was the supreme Priest Man but the Ministeriall Priest O how reuerently do the auncient Fathers speake of Priesthood Nazianzene tearmeth a Priest the Mediatour betweene God and Man Chrysostome honored Prieshood so much as that he did wryte a booke entituling it De Sacerdotio among infinit other passages of which subiect he thus saith Non Angelus non Archangelus non alia quaeuis creata potentia sed ipso Paracleâ—us Ordinem eiusmodi disposuit Neither Angel nor Archangell nor any created Power but only our Aduocate Comforter Meaning Christ did institute this Order of Pryesthood Ambrose in like sort did wryte of this subiect styling his Treatise De dignitate Sacerdotale In which booke speaking of the manner how a Priest is created thus wryteth in the first Chapter thereof Homo imponit manum Deus langitur gratium Sacerdos imponit simplicem dexteram Deus benedicit potenti dexiera Man doth impose the hand but God giueth the grace The Priest doth lay his humble hand meaning vpon hym who is to be made Pryest But God doth blesse with his pouerfull hand Leo the first thus worthely wryteth hereof Omnium Sacerdotum tam excellens est electio vt haec quae in alijs membris Ecclesiae vacant a culpa in illis tamen habeantur illicita The state of all Pryests is so noble as that some things theare are meaning mariadge of Pryests which being lawfull in other members of the Church are neuerthelesse prohibited in them To be short Pacâ—nus thus amplifieth vpon this poynt Plebi vnde Spiritus quam non consignat vnctus Sacerdos How can that Society or company of Men receaue the Holy Ghost if the annoynted Priest doth not signe blesse them Thus farre in generall of the dignity of Pryesthood which I hope in modesty and without the lest tuche of Vanity I may alledge forbearinge many more authorityes of lyke nature lest my producing of them might be misconstiued my selfe being a Priest and therefore interressed in them by some one or other deprauing tongue VICE-CHANCELOVR What you haue heare Michaeas alledged out of Antiquity in honour of Priesthood we willingly acknowledge since it was then ment and now is truly applyed to the Ministers of the Ghospell and others of the faythfull in regard of the spirituall sacrifices of Prayer dayly offered vp by them who therefore in a metaphorical and improper acceptance of the word Pryest and as the phraze is are tearmed Pryests MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour You are fowly mistaken heerein willing it seemes you are to vendicate to your owne Ministerial function the prayses due to Priesthood But I hope you will stand to the iudgment of S. Austin and other Fathers herein S. Austin then thus speaketh of this poynt Soli Episcopi Presbiteri propriè vocantur in Ecclesia Sacerdot s. Thus Austin by expressely calling Bishops Presbyters only Priests excludeth this secondary and improper signification of the word Priest which you seeme heare to mantayne and which in your sense may be truly extended to Weomen who offer vp the Sacrifice or prayer to God as well as Men. And according hereto it is that Ireneus acknowledging with you that in a restrayned sense all iust Men may be called Priests doth further teach a peculiar Pryesthood of the Apostles different from the former kynd of Pryesthood which saith he dayly attends vpon God and the Altar And hence also it is that the greeke Word 〈…〉 ereus which properly signifieth Sacerdos is applyed to Christian Pryests by Eusebius Ierome Ignatius and finally to omit others by Dionysius Areopagita I may ad in further warrant of this Truth that the auncient Fathers do make frequent mention of Altars now to be in the Church of Christ But
Sacerdotal 〈…〉 h 〈…〉 tye of remitting of sinns in the Sacrament of Confession and of celebrating the most reuerend and incruent Sacrifice of the Masse subiects against which many Protestants so bitterly 〈…〉 both with tongue and penne Now if Gods 〈◊〉 Wâ—â—t partly deliuered in a propheticall spirit and partly by our Sauiours 〈◊〉 and Apostles touching the former poynts Yf the vninterrupted practize of Gods Church answearable to those diuine Oracles Yf the learned Monuments of the Primatiue Fathers in the Churches Infancy contesting or rather deposing the same Yf the Ecclesiasticall Historyes recording the euenâ—s sorting to all the former proâ—ffs and authorityes Finally if your owne Brethrens free Confessions in their wrytings to their owne irreperable preiudice warranting the same cannot induce many of you to beleiue the truth of the Articles aboue discussed then can I but dispaire of your bettering by perusing the former disputes and can but coÌ„miserate your irremediable states in the words of the Prophet spoken to Israell Insanabilis â—ract 〈…〉 a pessima pâ—â—ga tua but if you be such as I haue fiâ—ured out to my selfe Men professing Candor and ingenuitie thirsting after your owne Saluation desirous to embrace the Truth once found out and chorninâ— any lonâ—er to liue and implicit and blynd assent without further 〈◊〉 and search to your grand Maysters Theorems then I am in good hope that these my Labours may wunne some ground vpon your iudgments and that you will make good in yourself that senteÌ„ce of our Lord and Sauiour Iustificata est sapientia a fil 〈…〉 suis I will speake playnly vnto you because I affect you in true Christian Charity and pittie it is that such-transcendent Spirits should for euer perish You are created to enjoy Eternitye Spurne there at those temporary illaqueations whearwith the soule i accustomed to be detayned from her cheifest Good You are through the force of Christs Passion 〈…〉 borne Coheyâ—es to the Kinâ—dome of God Why then will you longer seede with the Prodicall Sonne vpon the husks of wordly deliâ—hts and pleasures say eich of you rather with an auncient Father Mihi â—amulo Create is murd 〈…〉 us si non tamen Deus mundi Et igo Mundo non tamen Deo mundi Pray with in â—â—slant and feruerous eiaculations of spirit by which meanes he will no dowbt of new become present to you who at all tymes is present that his Diuine Maiesty would vouchsafe to remoue from your eyes as he did from the corporal eyes of the Apostle the scales of partiality and preiudice in matters of fayth the most dangerous rocke of the soules eternall naufrage Do not still perseuer in vp â—raidinâ— the Catholicks with Superstition Idolatrie Antichristianisme relyinge on humane inuentions and disualewing of the most precious sufferings of our 〈◊〉 no. These are but our Aduersaryes impostures and Calumnyes forged to ensware the ignorant For we all most willingly acknowledg that the bloudy wounds of a sinfull soule are cured only by the bloudy passaues of Christ his Passion thus we teach and beleiue that bloud heare stancheth bloud and Death through ouerthrow of death raise Men from death Mors â—ortua tunc est in ligno quando mortua vita fuit But to returne more particularly to the former Dialogues I do probably preâ—age that perhaps some one or other of your learned Professours will vndertake to answeare theese my Wrytings Therefore let me premonish that man cheifly of three Things First that whereas theare are in the three former discourses almost a thousand Testimonies of all sorts of authorities produced some immediatly and others by necessary inferrence prouing the Catholicks Poynts aboue treated of That therefore he would not forbearing in policy to answeare the authorities flee a new to the state of the question being allready acknowledged on all sides and to other extrauagancyes of discours and all to with draw by such subtill transitions his Reader from the poynt issuable which is whether the former Conâ—rouerâ—ed Questions do receaue their full prousse from my alledged testimonies or no 〈◊〉 Secondly that whereas the greatest part of the aboue alledged authorities are taken from the protestants Confessions and acknowledgments they mainly thearby wounding their owne Religion That the Replyar for the auoyding of the force of their authorities would not seeke to oppose other Protestants denying that which they confesse since this Kynd of euadingâ—s most weake as is intimated allready in the second Dialogue in that the Protestants alledged by me are the most remarkable Protestants that euer did wryte and do confesse to their owne preiudice and against the 〈◊〉 which they neuer would do but that the euidency of the Truth enforceth them thear to Whereas thus others which perhaps the Replyar may pro 〈…〉 ce are Men of meaner ranke and speake in their owne behalfe and therefore as compacted of impudency and boldnes their tonâ—ues and pe 〈…〉 ns stand at all tymes ready charged to speake and wryte by affirming of chings thou 〈…〉 neuer so false for the supporting of their owne Cause Thirdly and lastly that in answearing to the testimonyes and Confessious he would take them in order as they lye and not omit any as otherwyse hoping that is regard of the â—â—ltitude of the testimonyes the sluggish yauning Reader would easely swalow such ouersights of Omisions For heare I aduertize the Replyar a forehand That presently vpon the first comming out of his Answeare I will make a short Cathalogue of all the testimonyes and Confessions omitted by hym if any such he shewing to what end the sayd Testimonyes were particularly produced And will cause this Cathalogue within few dayes after atleast few weeks for I will not stay for months to be printed and d 〈…〉 for the present s 〈…〉 of the Readers thirst till further oportunity be geuen for confuting of his answeare at large And thus I dowbt not but the Sunne of the Replyars same end worth which may seeme perhaps so gloriously to ryse at the first appearance of his most learned answeare forsooth within th 〈…〉 tyme after if any of the former premonished â—leiâ—hts and collusions be vsed thearein wil be forced to set in a Cloud of his owne disgrace and disreputation Neither let that Man think that the s 〈…〉 of his Booke with greeke sentences or the hayling in of certaine mysapplyed and g 〈…〉 beaded Apotheges of some one or other old and outworne Philosophâ—â— an Idiome peculiar to most Protestant Wryters must carye the maâ—ter But it must be a 〈…〉 and sincere coaâ—s of answearing which at this tyme can satisfy But now Cel 〈…〉 Academicks taking my last leaue of you all I will heare cease but will neuer cease to power out my dayly prayers to the most Blessed and vâ—deuided for your encrease of all vertues but particularly for true and orthodoxall fayth that â—o you being gratefull in the siâ—ht of the three diuine Persons God the Father would vouchsafe
shew their loue to the Truth by their hate to this Pillar and Foundation of Truth Besides this deportment disculps great Humility a Character euen of Christ himselfe dicite a me quia humilis sum corde so true it is that an humble man is like to a lowly vally sweetly seated Thus doing Micheas no doubt you will embrace our Catholicke Faith of which point I am in greater hope in that it is obserued that whereas many Protestants haue becom Iewes yet not any Iew a Protestant D. WHITAKER The Cardinall here hath giuen you to large a scope since most of these are but humane and morall inducements which stand subiect to errour and falshood and you are to call to minde that to run well out of the right way is noe better then to stand still Pálin dromêsan ' è dramêin cacôs Therfore let your groundworke be next vnder Christ only the Holy Scriptures These are the only Iudges of all Cōtrouersies These are of that worth as that they are profitable as the Apostle speaketh To Doctrine to reprooue to correction to instruction which is in righteousnes that the man of God may be perfect instructed in all good workes of that Clearenes as that iustly they may be called lucerna pedibus meis Of that fulnes and amplitude as we are threatned vnder paine of hauing our names blotted out of the booke of life if we either add or detract from thence finally of that easines and facility as that for picking out the true sence we are to receiue it by the benefit of our owne spirit instructed by the Holy Ghost spiritus vbi vult spirat MICHEVS You both speake learnedly And first touching your directions my L. Card. I hold them most graue waighty Yet seing I haue spent all my time chiefly in studying the Law and the Prophets being heretofore a Rabnie in our Iewish Sinagogue and seing that multiplity of reading which your method exacts to wit of the Auntient Fathers the Generall Councels Ecclesiasticall Histories is to great a burden to be imposed now vpon the shoulders of my old age my selfe not likely to liue so many years as will be answerable to so infinit a labour Therefore I must bethinke my selfe of some other more short and abreuiated course for the perfect setling of my iudgment in the Christian Religion Touching your graue aduice M. Doctour of relying only vpon the Writen word Grant that the Scripture alone were of it selfe sufficient to define and determine all Controuersies in Religion yet I am so conscious of my owne weaknes herein as that considering the seuerall sences vsually giuen vpon one and the same text I should euer rest doubtfull once abandoning the sence giuen by the ioynt consent of all Ancient Doctours of what construction to make choyce and the rather seing the Scripture witnesseth of it selfe That no Prophesy of the Scriprure is made by priuat Intepretation And sure I am that if we Iewish Rabbins should take liberty to interprete the olde Testament according to euery particular conceipte of each of vs we longe since should haue begotten many dissentions in Faith amonge vs. I may add hereto that I am the more easily thus perswaded euen by both your speches at this present seing both of you do strengthen and fortifie your different iudgments touching the finall determining of Controuersies euen from the Scripture it selfe But what doth the Scripture speake different or rather contrary things Noe. The Scripture is like to the Authour of Scripture euer the same and vnchāgable Ego sum dominus et non mutor And indeede to speake plainly when you vrge those words spiritus vbi vult spirat whereby you intimate the guift of the Priuat spirit interpreting the Scripture I euer disliked this Principle euen before I beleeued in Christ as ready to create in differētly any one Religion as well as an other so that that man who for his Faith and Religion grounds himselfe vpon this Reuealing Spirit and consequētly is ready to stampe any Religion which himselfe best pleaseth is like in my iudgment to on that should be immediatly made rather of the first Matter then of the Elements well tempred togeather since he is in possibility Anything But to proceede seing the directions of neither of you in regard of some difficult circumstances accompaning them can at this present sorte vnto my case I must make election of some other method for the sētling of my fluctuating Conscience in matter of Faith And vnder both your fauours it shal be this wheras by seriously perusing the New Testament as you Christians call it I am become with infinite thanks to the Lord of Hostes a Christian though as yet but a Christian imperfect and scarsly initiated So out of the same deuine Records I am instructed that the Church of Rome in those primatiue times receaued the true Christian Faith incontaminate and free from all errour Now if those sacred writings be of sufficient force with me for my relinquishing of my anciēt Iewish faith then ought they as securely to warrant my Iudgment that the true Faith of Christ was planted in the Apostles time in Rome This last point is confirmed to me by your great Apostle Paule who in his Epistle to the Romans much celebrateth the Faith of Rome saying To all that be at Rome the beloued of God called to be Saints Grace to you And againe I thanke my God for you c. because your Faith is renowned throughout the whole world And yet more your obdience is published in euery place finally the Apostle is so full in aduancing the Faith of the Romans as that he particularly euen in words ascribs one and the same Faith to himselfe and them saying That which is common to vs both your Faith and mine From all which texts it is euicted that Rome in those first times enioyed a true and perfect Faith Now here it comes to be examined whether Rome since her first embracing of it hath changed her Faith or othirwise she retaines without any alteration the same doctrine which first the Apostles did plant in her This point most excellent Men deserus an exact discussing and may well seeme to be worthy your serious disputs My owne want in your Ecclesiasticall Histories from whence cheifly this question is to receiue it triall doth pleade for my ignorance herein and makes my humble request for the better estableshing of my yet vnsetled iudgment to you both to enter into a graue skirmish and feight of disputation herein Both of you are learned and therefore by vrging what can be said on either side able to accomplish this my desire both of you are charitable as I must suppose and therefore no doubt willing for my confirmation in the Christian Faith to vndertake this my wished taske for Charity as euer desirous to do good omnia sperat sustinet a charitable man partakes of the
the word Altar hath euen by the confession of D. Raynolds a necessary and inseparable reference to the words Pryest and Sacrifice as they are taken in their proper and naturall signification since they are Relatiues And seing euery Altar hath a relation to a true and real Sacrifice and to a Pryest as the Word is properly taken and as the said Pryest doth offer vp a true and reall Sacrifice That the Fathers do often mention Altars now to be in the Church of Christ you may M. Vice-Chancelour peruse Austin Chrisostome Optatus Dyonisius Areo pogita and finally the Canons of the Apostles VICE-CHANCELOVR Howsoeuer the Primatiue Fathers may take the word Priest It is not much materiall to vs who heere relye only vpon the pure word of God interpreted to vs by the Holy Ghost yet sure I am that Those Priests who come into England do arrogate vnto themselues a dooble Prerogatiue of which all Antiquity was wholy ignorant The first is in vndertaking to reconcile men to the Pope our states designed enemy And so by this meanes to alienate them in their allegiance from their owne natiue Prince and soueraigne The second in assuming to them power to offer vp in the Masse the body bloud of Christ Which once for all was offered vp for the whole world vpon the Crosse Now both these attempts are deseruedly punished by our Lawes for their acrocityes therein committed And to the daunger decreed against them your selfe Michaeas rests obnoxious seing you being a Priest haue no doubt often practized them both since your arriuall into England MICHAEAS It is wonderfull to obserue how Malice taking the place of Ignorance seeleth vp Mans iudgment for I presume M. Vice-Chancelour You cannot be ignorant of the vntruth of these your assertions Therefore for the better satisfying of you Myreuerend Iudge whom in all reason and duty I am bound to satisfy You are heere to know that what M. Vice-Chancelour calleth reconciling to the Pope is nothing els but an incorporating of one into Christ Church if so afore he was no member thereof by Confession of his sinnes accompanied with a resolution neuer to sinne more to a Catholicke Priest and absolution thereof giuen by the said Priest Or if he were afore a branch of the said Mysticall Body then is this M. Vice-Chancelour reconciling a meere penitent Confession of our sinnes to a Catholicke Priest attended on with an absolution from the said sinnes By force of which Sacrament we ouercome him who is inuincible and restrayne him who is Omnipotent Now heare I demand in all sincerity how these spirituall Actions of a penitent sinner may be reputed preiudiciall to his Loyalty to his Prince Or what necessary reference hath the one to the other Or shall we thinke that in Catholicke CouÌ„tryes for the reason is the same of Catholicks liuing either in Catholicke or Protestante Countries one renounceth his Loyalty to his Prince by recurring to this spirituall physick for the curing of his soules disseases Alas M. Vice-Chancelour I much greiue to see you thus drunke as I may say with malice as to forge such strange and forced interpretations of the Priests and Catholicks proceedings hearein And I pray you how can it be conceaued M. Vice-Chancelour that our propâ—â—quity towards God for such a nearnes is wrought by a true penitent Confession should be presumed to cause a greater distance of our obedience from our Prince and that our state of grace in the sight of God should be censured as a state of Disloyalty in the eye of Man No. The case is mearly contrary to your supposall For since absolute Princes are the Vicegerents of God and in that respect are tearmed Gods Ego dixi dij estis And since we are bound to obey our Prince euen propter conscientiam Therefore we may truly inferre that a fearefull Conscience loath to offend God or through f 〈…〉 ty offending yet willing by the Sacrament of pennance absoluâ—ion to expiate it sinns is euer most ready to performe it d 〈…〉 y 〈…〉 en for feare of Gods displeasure to 〈◊〉 soueraigne And that such Men as want this ten â—ernes of conscience â—â—e loyall subiects so long only as their owne temporall and humane respects do comport with this their loyalty VICE-CHANCELOVR You speake much Michaeas of your Priestly function in absoluing of sinnes confessed But you should prooue if you can since it is most materiall that such Men as were tearmed Priests in the Primatiue Church did heare the confessions of other Mens sinnes and did giue absolution of them so confessed And if you cannot make this good from the Precedents of those firster and purer tymes we must then rest assured that this your assumed authority is but a meere Innouation ingendred betweene the pryde of the Priest taking vpon him Gods person heerein for we read Quis potest dimittere peccata nisi solus Deus Marc. 2. and the scrupulous superstition of the confessed Penitent MICHAEAS It is true that only God originally primatiuely and immediatly remitteth sinne and in this sense the Scripture speaketh of only God remitting of sinne yet is his diuine Maiesty pleased to vse Man as his instrument therein according to those words of our Sauiour to the Apostles Whose sinnes you shall forgiue they are forgiuen and whosâ— sinnes you shall retayne they are retayned From which passage we further inferre that seing some sinnes are to be retayneâ— and not remitted it followeth inauoydably that we are obliged particularly and distinctly to confesse our sinnes to the Priest For how can the Priest know what sinnes are to be retayned and what sinnes to be remitted except he know which the sinnes be in particular Ad heereto that if God vouchsafest to vse Water a creature much more base then Man as his instrument for the taking away of Originall sinne then much more may Man as his instrument and receauing his authority heerein from the words of Christ and from his Passion which giue force and efficacy to â—ich Sacrament now in the tyme of grace practize without sacriledge the same authority that the auncient Fathers of the Primatiue Church contrary to your former bold assertion M. Vice-Chancelour did concordantly teach practize our Catholicke doctrine herein is most euident I will not ouerwhelme you with multitude of their testimonyes though all of them are most luxuriant in such their sentences therefore thâ—â—e or foure of them and such as are most auncient shall serue Heere then first I will produce the words of Saint Basill thus wryting Necessario peccata ijs apperiri debent quibus credita est dispensatio mysteriorum Dei si quidem rationem hanc in paeriteâ—â—ia etiam veteres illos â—ernimus secutos fuisse Our sinnes ought of necessity to be reuealed to them to whom is committed the dispensing and distribution of the mysteries of God And thâ—sâ— ou se in Pennance we do find that the